Calvinist Confusion

[Mcfirefly2]

@TCMAO0 " 'freewillism' is a false gospel" It isn't that the freedom to choose is not taught in the Bible; it is just that it is all over the Bible. What about this: "I have set before you death and life; choose ye, therefore, life..." Does that not show us that _God thinks_ we have the freedom to choose? Or is God deceiving us, just taunting us with our "inability?" This teaching that we have no freedom to receive the gospel is what implies and leads to a false gospel.

[pennylaneproductions]

@Mcfirefly2 I talked about this in my 'Did God Lie to Cain' video. Thanks!

[pennylaneproductions]

@thetorvasal I think the Bible does teach people know they are rejecting God. Ro 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So are you a Calvinist?

[5355vbxjbj76rvn]

If God has condemned some people to eternal damnation even before they are born - which is what the Calvinist doctrine of reprobation teaches - then God is indistinguishable from the devil. He is not righteous, but unrighteous. As the Prophets denounce unrighteousness in His Name, this makes God an arch-hypocrite. If as some say God's righteousness is utterly different from man's, what men denounce when Hitler does it, could be righteous in God's eyes. This amorality is not Biblical :(

[pennylaneproductions]

@5355vbxjbj76rvn And it makes His exhortations a mockery (turn to me, all ye ends of the earth and live...why would you die?) and the statement that he is not willing that any should perish a heresy. Why do calvinists insist He can't be sovereign unless He makes every decision for us?

[TCMAO0]

Freewillism is a False Gospel ---> youtube.com/watch?v=ChFyB2_XF5­w

[JohnWesleyMethodist]

I tell you Calvinism is so sick! It makes God worse than the devil!!! Heck, it even makes the devil a cosmic fool, because why does he waste his time tempting us if he can't stop us from being saved? People just want to rest on God, and that's why this is doctrine is continually pushed, but an Arminian can rest on God also! It's not contrary to be saved by faith if you are an Arminian.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dynasue77]

2:15. The proclamation is to repent and believe. Where does it say God extends the salvation to everybody? Are you going to cite John 3:16 or 1st Timothy 2:4, 2nd Peter 3:9 perhaps. I will happily challenge you on all of these passages the universilist loves to cite.

[pennylaneproductions]

@dynasue77

Where does it say God extends the salvation to everybody?

The offer is as universal as the curse according to Ro 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Now it's true that the phrase 'many' is used elsewhere but it also says 'many' were made sinners when we know it was all.

[5355vbxjbj76rvn]

@dynasue77

No quoting from the Bible is needed. Most people have enough of a moral sense to recognise that if God exists at all, He cannot be the moral inferior of human beings. If salvation is offered, it cannot be meant to exclude a single person. Calvin's LimAton is built on his unwillingness for God to be a failure - but Jesus is a failure; His failure is part of the Gospel. God is not "with us" if He does not share our condition in every way, failure included. Crucifixion is just that

[dubvishun]

thesinmuststop followed by the o r g with hunger & desire for truth checking every detail thru what scripture sais thru cross references from the early church 1400yrs plus,,,BUT "im goin with dave hunt on this" somwhat exposes either not heard of that site or have seen & not studied backing up to see mcathr d hunt are wolves who i thought good of in the past also..but then some discover who dig deep have ears & fear to be damn sure to find the truth...salvation is strict & condititional.

[pennylaneproductions]

I believe Romans 1indicates that God is knowable though the creation itself. If anyone responds tio the revelation he has (natural) then God will see he receives the rest.

[canucksteel]

Romans 1

[pennylaneproductions]

Perhaps not. Look at Apollos 'mighty in the scriptures'

Ac 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, but then

when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. (v 26). I've heard people say he wasn't saved yet...I think the attitude of Psalm 51 saves.

[Purushadasa]

You have failed to provide evidence for your personal belief that there is someone who never heard about God or never had the chance. What it this alleged person's name? On what date was he allegedly born?

Actually, it's most likely that you simply made up such an imaginary person, and are attempting to foist your belief on the world without any evidence, but the world resists.

Got any evidence for your bizarre personal belief, or did you just make it up?

[Purushadasa]

You have failed to provide any evidence of a single person who has never heard of the Gospel. I asked for a name and a birth date, but you failed to provide the name of as much as a single person, since you have no evidence for your fictional imaginary friend -- such a person obviously doesn't exist.

The world rejects your bizarre personal belief because you fail to provide any evidence for your wild claims.

atheist total fail.

[Purushadasa]

The reason why the world rejects your wild claim about your imaginary friend who has supposedly never heard of the Gospel is that such a person obviously does not exist. I asked for a name and a birth date, but you failed to provide as much as a single name.

You have failed to provide any evidence at all for your bizarre belief, and so it is obviously just a figment of your imagination -- no person exists who has never heard of the Gospel.

atheist total fail

[rdm0001]

I usually discuss this with people and realize that neither side really understands what the other side is saying. I once thought that Calvinism was detestable, but when I really wrestled with the issue I became one.

The point is not that God blinds people, man is blind and dead in sin and does not have the ability to come to God.

What good is God's offer of salvation to mankind if no one is able to partake of it?

[rdm0001]

@rdm0001 That is the reason John 6:44 is so important.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

[BennyMetal7]

God did not intentionally blind them, that's the thing, all men are blinded and are born spiritually dead. God doesn't have to blind people for them not to follow him, all he has to do is do nothing! I love how you guys try to prove this doctrine wrong and you don't even understand what your fighting against. Calvinists believe in Free will, but Free Will doesn't allow you to make Gods Choices. I really don;t think you guys are ignorant, i just think you don't understand what Calvinism is.

[Yuratchka]

Yes, Calvinists are very confused individuals when it comes to God's work in humanity.

[msb0000]

Thank you for posting this!

[pennylaneproductions]

Thanks! The first time (years ago) he started with the doctrines of grace thing I dumped him too. For a while. There's much to learn from this man and I still read his books but just kind of ignore the Calvinism stuff. It's not that my mind is closed, I've listened to HOURS of argument but...no cigar.

[vivienlizzie]

J.Mac. sits on the fence here. God waits, strives, reasons, gives space to repent,. We're commanded to repent. Total Depravity, yes, but NOT total inability. Man has personal accountability (Matt.26:24,Acts 2:23) Man has light (Prov.20:27,John 1:4,3:19).Man has conscience (Rom2:14,15).Faith in man's heart/mouth (Rom 10:6-8). 1 Pet.1:12. We're Elect when we're in Jesus Christ. Calvin's doctrine -a rehash of Augustine's- rejected by the Early Church as "unacceptable and heretical".

[pennylaneproductions]

Thank you, sister. I say more in my Did God Lie To Cain? video. He gave 'Jezebel' space to repent? What for? He told Cain to 'master sin'...how?

[vivienlizzie]

Hello brother. I'll take a look at the video you mention. God doesn't repent, but does change His Decree. (See 2 Kings

20;1-6/1Sam 23:13/1 Sam 23:12/1 Sam 15:11/Jer.18:8/1 Sam 2:30/Hosea 11:8-9/Gen 6:5-7/Jonah 3:10. NONE Eternal to start with!! Not one 'decree' in the Bible was permanently fixed.

[pennylaneproductions]

It's always good to hear from real Christians in the UK. Lots of quasi-Catholics out there and witches and such I hear. God bless.

[vivienlizzie]

Bless you brother. We're few and far inbetween here in UK. I'm in front-line ministry and witness to many who 'dabble'. I think of John Welsey's diary notes "...and see, but just before your eyes, the immense ocean of eternity, without a bottom or a shore, which has already swallowed up millions of millions of men and is gaping to devour them that yet remain". God bless you.

[skalapunk]

Also brother, you make an issue out of man's choice, but please know that man's choice to decide or choose what he wants is not an issue. It is not something that Calvinism denies. All men are free to choose what they want, and are held accountable for their choices.

Calvinists simply believe that the Bible is clear that when given the choice while in the unregenerate fallen state, all men would choose to reject God.

Choice is not what the issue is, so to argue from those grounds is pointless

[skalapunk]

Brother, you say you give Calvinism a thumbs down and God's grace a thumbs up, but let me point out that in Calvinism, God's Grace actually saves without fail.

In any other (synergistic) theology, God's grace is only to offer and nothing more. It is only a heartfelt hope, but not active involvement to effectually save anyone.

When you say "I reject Calvinism but give God's grace a thumbs up", that is an oxymoron, because only Calvinism adheres to a grace that is effectual.

[gracetruthguy]

Good video PLP

At 1st you think John does not hold to Calvinism, but then you clarify.

It is good to be theologically consistent like the early Church Fathers and not be a Calvinist (for up to 400 years) before Augustine who began the Calvinist heresy

It's a shame so much of our bible's translations have been adapted to that doctrine ever since, making them a stumbling block for many!

[pennylaneproductions]

2 Thes 2:10-12, the entire chapter Romans 1.

Isaiah 29:10 sounds like God is blinding for no cause but Matt 13:15 (and Acts 28:27) spell it out...they are not willing, they reject, He confirms by blinding them.

Isn't that the gist of

Mt 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

No mone has answered yet: How can you 'harden your heart' against Irresitible Grace?

[pennylaneproductions]

In scripture when He blinds their eyes, it's for a reason...i.e. they received not the love of the truth...they did noit like to retain the knowledge...etc...

[Oct31st1517]

I'm not saying that you have to be a calvinist to be a christian. However, if you are going to be theologically consistant, you will be a calvinist.

[pennylaneproductions]

Well, OK then. However, if man were truly incapable...why does God need to blind their eyes? I hold that whenever He does this it's because 'they received not the love of the truth' or they 'did not like to retain'...etc...

[Oct31st1517]

Is not God interfering with their supposed freewill by blinding their eyes?

[pennylaneproductions]

I think rather He's confirming their free will.

[GPLeague]

I'm going to allow this vid. response because, though I disagree with both your presentation of Calvinism and your conclusion, I appreciate your honesty and (above all) your plea for civility (you'll get no sneering or condescension from me; I'm on the receiving end too often on youtube). As for your content two quick thoughts: I do not necessarily agree with all that J.M. has ever taught on this subject (though it is generally reliable in my experience). (cont...)

[GPLeague]

As for Dave Hunt's material on Calvinism here are some great vids:

watch?v=OY0neH7f1WQ

watch?v=tw-Q41TKBxQ

watch?v=tzlYlgoBTH8

In short, if your view of Reformed theology is based on Hunt's material, then you should know that even most Calvinists would reject what he argues against (usually hyper-Calvinism or a Calvinist strawman). Since I heard some echoes of his material in you argument, you might be interested in how Reformed folk have responded.

[pennylaneproductions]

JM doesn't even agree with himself on this subject. Neither does Spurgeon, nor Pink, etc. What kills me is when some folk say (as in Westboro Baptist Church) if you don't believe in the Five Points, you're going to hell! Where's THAT in the Bible? LOL Non-Calvinists do NOT believe they merit salvation by faith, they do not limit God's soveriegnty nor make Him subject to our will. Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart...against Irresistible Grace? Thanks for your reply. Blessings

[GPLeague]

Oh my; please tell me that you don't take the Westboro "God Hates Fags" Baptists as normative for reformed beliefs. I would not even consider them Christian, let alone reformed. As for irresistible grace, it does not negate human responsibility. It simply means that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." The same group that is drawn is raised up at the last day, because "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me..."

[pennylaneproductions]

No, LOL, I don't take WBC as normal. Irrestible Grace is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned. As for Limited Atonement...can't you guys at least see that that one is a no-go? NOWHERE is it even hinted at, it is sheer conjecture...however, the opposite is stated unequivocally many times.

[GPLeague]

"No, LOL, I don't take WBC as normal."

Whew, glad we're on the same page (you'd be surprised at what some people claim here on youtube).

"Irrestible Grace is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned."

I have founf John 6 (quoted above) to be a good start.

"NOWHERE is it even hinted at, it is sheer conjecture..."

I usually go back to John 17, where Jesus says "even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You gave Him, He may give eternal life."

[sprtslvr1973]

Its amusing that Calvinists seem to think that there are some who are predestined to be damned, no matter what people say or do. Oh, but they always know that "I'm saved." Sounds like self worship and smug self-assurance to me, not faith.

BTW, Dave Hunt lied about Eastern Orthodox doctrine plain and simple. He is a fake. I will not get into a "nuh-uh" vs. "yeah-huh" argument, but I will send anyone who is sincerely curious about what we do believe & let the facts speak for themselves.

I.C.

Ian

[AnonymousBChurch]

"Did God just choose, willy-nilly, a few to be saved or did He foreknow."

Why do you assume that God's choice was "willy-nilly?" If you are not chosen, maybe it seems "willy-nilly" to you.

How could God love someone, and "foreknow" they were going to Hell, and not save them? The fact He did not save them is evidence He didn't love them. Unless you are saying God cannot save, or God will not save those He loves.

[pennylaneproductions]

So you're saying it's better somehow that He stacks the deck irreveresibly against them than allows them to doom themselves? You have just hit my answer to that problem and to the 'vessels fitted for destruction' argument. God surely does know that certain persons will reject Him and be damned forever yet He still allows them to come to term, be born and grow and die. This is a 'hard saying' but AT LEAST God is not the author of their doom. The 'goodness and severity of God' indeed.

[AnonymousBChurch]

To you it seems willy-nilly to choose one sinner over another. God has His reasons and you don't know them.

God brings a dead sinner to life, and you want to complain because you didn't like His choice?

[pennylaneproductions]

If it isn't willy-nilly to hate "sinner X" and love "sinner y" even though they are identical (in Calvin thinking) then what is it? Sinner x gets "depart ye accursed" and sinner y gets "come ye blessed" for NO REASON at all? He punishes one for what he cannot avoid and rewards another for what He Himself does?

[AnonymousBChurch]

Does a dog "choose" to eat poop? No, it's in his nature to do so.

[pennylaneproductions]

Yes, I can see that man's nature is clearly to sin but I don't think the case for "inability" has been made. Did God just choose, willy-nilly, a few to be saved or did He foreknow. In my view of scripture there are no conflicts with election that cannot be resolved by God's foreknowledge. There are a few head-scratchers (Matt 11:23, which I haven't heard used by the Calvin crowd) but the entire timbre of scripture makes clear that God calls ALL. Else why the pleading? 2 Cor 5:20, Ezekiel 18:23