Re: Can a Christian Not Believe in the Trinity?

[iconoclast911]

@djbehemoth Christ was the mediator between His Father and mankind. He was the messenger from the Father to man. It would be wrong to worship Christ and to ignore the Father who sent him. I do believe that Jesus was more than just a man, rather he was God's son, born of a virgin, but he was not the Father. He sits on the right hand of the Father, and is "less than" the Father. I agree that most churches are off base, and are cults for the most part.

[lchiddle]

@djbehemoth

The Logos is either a separate deity or he continually emanates from the Father, he cannot be both, can he?

I believe the Logos continually emanates and has done since the beginning when he was first brought forth. Just as a babe exists in the womb before birth, so to the Logos eternally existed in God before creation, but when God created the Logos was given birth alone with the Spirit that carries the Logos.

[lchiddle]

[cont'd][2]

Justin says in ch 61:

"..He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled, but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled."

[lchiddle]

@djbehemoth

@djbehemoth

This is not a quote by Origen, but another's interpolation in reference to Origen. Here is a quote from Origen (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 7):

"Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification."

[lchiddle]

@djbehemoth

Philo was not a Christian. And you'll have to demonstrate how exactly Justin nor Origen were trinitarian.

[lchiddle]

@djbehemoth

I am not denying that Jesus is said to be theos, far from it. What I am saying is that Jesus (the Logos more specifically) is not "A god" but very God referring to his nature. E.g. Your arm is very human, but it is not A human.

Thomas does not just acknowledge Jesus as a god or one who represents God, but says to Jesus "My Lord and my God" or more literally "ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou" "the Lord of me and the God of me." Instead of rebuking Thomas, Jesus blesses him.

[cont'd]

[lchiddle]

[cont'd][2]

Paul also makes reference to other theoi, he says, "there is no God but one. For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

[cont'd]

[lchiddle]

[cont'd][3]

Paul makes it very clear that although there be those that are called “gods” these are not really gods at all, therefore if Jesus is 'a god' he is not a true god , therefore he is a false god.

Hebrews 1:3 Is a clear example of how Jesus is not just a god but is one with the Father - “He [the Son] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his being, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

[cont'd]

[lchiddle]

[cont'd][4]

The mediation between God and man is not by a demiurge it is by the MAN Christ Jesus, the Logos who has come in the flesh. Fully God and fully man. You are now going away from the doctrine of the Trinity and towards the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

[lchiddle]

@djbehemoth

What about John 17:3? It proves exactly what I have said about Jesus not being 'a god'.

How exactly do Philo, Justin, and Origen disagree with me? Not that they are even authorities...

There is no biblical support that angels nor resurrected humans are anything like God. In fact the word of God says again and again quite the opposite, "I am God, and there is none like me." (Isa 46:9)

Exactly the Logos already was with ho theos IN THE BEGINNING.

[lchiddle]

@djbehemoth

1st. I was referring to theos in the context of "monotheism", thought you are correct in pointing out that theos does not just mean "God", "God" is theos' short definition whether this literally means God or is referring metaphorically as in the judges. However there is not connection between theos and king or priest.

[cont'd]

[lchiddle]

[cont'd][2]

2nd. Jesus is not called "a god". John 1:1 tells us that the Logos is the very nature of God. If the Logos was "a god" then John 1:1c would read "καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς." But it reads "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" best translated "and the Logos was God" meaning 'what the God is the Logos is also. This is further supported by Philippians 2:6, Colossians 2:9, and Hebrews 1:3.

[cont'd]

[lchiddle]

[cont'd][3]

However, if Jesus is merely 'a god', then he is another god from the Father and this would mean there are at least two true gods. This though is contrary to monotheism.

[danirichardsonfwhj]

Jesus very well knew that being called a thing did not necessarily mean you were truly the thing. Which is why Jesus said his Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Jesus was very careful with his words, and careful not to mess with the Jealousy of Jehovah God. Unfortunately many of us Christians Trinitarian and Non-Trinitarian are not so careful as were too busy trying to be the ones whose way is the right way. We end up ignoring Christ's own words. Such is our ego. Such is our sin. Great video though.

[iconoclast911]

@danirichardsonfwhj thank you for the thoughtful comments

[danirichardsonfwhj]

I am a Non-Trinitarian who serves amongst Trinitarians. Good video. Jesus has never been God for me because I serve the God that he serves. Jesus says that his Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD and I for one believe him. I serve amongst Trinitarians because I learned about Jehovah God's allowance. In Isaiah 9 Jesus is called "The Mighty God." This is a big mercy from Jehovah God giving those who needed it an image to look at and worship. However note carefully the words "called" and "The"

[lchiddle]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, but what does this mean?

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle I believe "begotten" means "born"

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Yeah. But HOW is Jesus the only begotten Son of God?

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle He was the only man who was the result of an immaculate conception. The bible says that God made Mary pregnant "by his spirit"

His father wasn't a man.

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Are you saying that the Son of God did not exist before he was conceived in Mary's womb?

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle The bible seems to indicate he did exist prior to his birth as a human being

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

So Jesus was a human, before he was born to Mary? Where is this indicated?

[iconoclast911]

@iconoclast911 He was the only man who was the result of an immaculate conception. The bible says that God made Mary pregnant "by his spirit"

His father wasn't a man.

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Who or what do you believe God's Spirit is?

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle I'm not sure how to answer this question. I'll say it's His active force manifest in our world

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

So you believe that the Holy Spirit distinct from the Father, and that it is not a person but instead an inanimate force?

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle It's like the wind. you see the leaves move, but you cant see the wind itself.

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Deep, but that didn't really tell me anything. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God or something other than God? And do you believe that he is distinct person from the Father, the Father himself, or just an inanimate force?

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle an inanimate force

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

How then do you do explain the many personal attributes that are constantly applied to the Holy Spirit (i.e. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. - John 16:13)

[lchiddle]

Jesus describes the Holy Spirit as "Another Comforter", this term, which in the Greek reads "allon paraklēton", uses the word "allon" which means "another of like kind" and not "heteron" means "completely different".

Are we to conclude that Jesus is also not a person, but an inanimate force, because he is of the same kind as the Holy Spirit?

[iconoclast911]

PERSON

noun - human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; personage.

Call the Holy Spirit a person if you wish. It doesn't matter what you call it, the point is, do you have it living inside of you

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. There is only one GOD. YHWH

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Am I born again? Absolutely.

The trinity concept is monotheistic.

Monotheism = one God and no others. Having distinct persons within that one God, does not = more that one God. The Son and Holy Spirit are fully God in nature, they are not other gods, but the same God in the Father. Just as Jesus said "I am in the Father" (John 14:10, also see Phil 2:6).

[iconoclast911]

@lchiddle If you have one person that is 3 persons, you have 3 gods. I prefer to take the words of Christ on the subject "That they may know you, the only true God"

"The father is greater than the son' "You are the Christ, the son of the living God"

"The spirit has revealed this to you" "This is .....MY BELOVED SON with whom I am well pleased, HEAR HIM

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Who said anything about only 1 person? 3 persons in 1 God. You don't say I have 3 apples in 1 basket, therefore I have 3 baskets! It is 3 whos in 1 what.

Jesus said, "The father is greater than I" when he was I a lowered position to the Father (Phil 2:6-8, 2 Cor 8:9, Heb 2:7-9). Is in to do with the Hypostatic Union not the Trinity.

Jesus is called the Son of God, because he is the Word of God that is born of God and came from him.

The Word is God in nature. (John 1:1)

[iconoclast911]

Who said anything about only 1 person? WE MENTIONED MONOTHEISM.

mono = one.

You have it all figured out, so what is the point of asking me questions that you don't care what my answers are? Go worship your three headed god, and I'll stick to taking God at his word. THIS IS WHO? MY BELOVED SON. LATER

[lchiddle]

@iconoclast911

Theos is the Greek word for God. Monotheism means "Belief in a single God"

That's rather rude and disrespectful. You clearly don't understand the concept of the Trinity.

I don't know if you remember, but I was the one asking all the question before. Just because I have a difference in opinion to you, that doesn't mean that I am not interested in your answers, on the contrary I love exploring other's belief and why they believe it

I know what I believe, what is so wrong with that?

[TheGenuineChristian]

Well said, the Messiah never claimed to be the Almighty God and the concept of the Trinity is not taught in the Bible.

[iconoclast911]

@TheGenuineChristian Thanks for watching and for the nice comment

[reformedbro1]

lol,blasphemy 

[curtjester1]

Can a Christian be saved by saying one is saved? Or does it depend on how one lives one's life and then is saved by God (through true faith in Jesu), because "they have endured to the end"? What about those who are on earth in Rev. 20 that are at the end of the 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ? How can they be truly saved until they are truly tested, and passed, just like the chapter tells us? CJ

[akaboo69]

My thing is to the great mysteries of God ASK HIM PERSONALLY HE WILL ANSWER YOU

[iconoclast911]

The Almighty God himself has plainly stated in scripture that "This is my beloved Son" So why be like the serpent in the garden and say "Hath God so said?" I'm not saying that you are doing this, I'm just saying that we really shouldn't need to ask him, when he has declared it from Heaven in an audible voice.

[iconoclast911]

Right! Oh how we, who call ourselves His followers, need to simply believe the Master when he says something as clearly as this. Never second guess the Master, but be thankful when we read a statement like this, we can know for sure that YHWH is the only true God! and that Yeshuah was the one sent by the Father, so that men might come to BELIEVE his words and then receive the free gift of eternal life, and the righteousness of Christ, imputed to their account, through faith in the Son of God.

[1987bugsy]

great video

i find it hard to believe that god almight would come on earth and be beaten, humiliated, spat on and killed by his own creation. and why would god sacrifice himself to himself.

i have done a lot of research on the trinity and come to the conlusion that everyone who believes in the trinity was talked about in mathew 7:21-23

[howdytheresir]

It IS simple.And his being God's SON is good enough for me too!Great vid.important message.

[DavesTreeFarm]

In mainstream Christianity, all 3 elements of the trinity are said to be equal. You have done a good job of explaining a complex concept of "oneness" in all 3. The short answer to the question, though is "No", as Christianity is all or nothing.  You do not have the ability to pick and choose which elements of the faith you wish to adhere.

Very nice video.

[iconoclast911]

Thanks for the comment.

I go by the scripture, not mainstream christianity. The Father is greater than the Son. The Son is seated at the right hand of the Father. The Father sent his Son. The Son is the mediator between God and man. Jesus was tempted with evil, but did not sin. The Father can not be tempted with evil. The Father has knowledge that the Son didn't have. Jesus referred to the Father as "the only true God" Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is ONE

[zkueker88]

If there is none good but God, then isn't Jesus God? You said, in this video, that Jesus 'is' good. Are you contradicting yourself?

[iconoclast911]

Jesus said that there is none good but God. He was correcting someone who had called him "Good Teacher". So, guess what? Jesus isn't God, but rather his Son. The Father is a perfect eternal spiritual being, who can not be tempted by evil. Jesus was tempted like all men, but never gave himself to sin. So, as far as men go, He was the most Godly, most sinless, most virtuous, most enlightened person that has ever lived, but, he had to deal with all the human emotions, and with negative thoughts.

[prettycow25]

If JC is perfect than by definition he HAS to be good. Where is the fault in this logic?

[iconoclast911]

Jesus was tempted like all men, but never gave himself to sin. So, as far as men go, He was the most Godly, most sinless, most virtuous, most enlightened person that has ever lived, but, he had to deal with all the human emotions, and with negative thoughts.

[prettycow25]

You still missed my point. Let me ask u plainly, is JC perfect? Second question, if JC is perfect then why did JC not accept the title of good?

Once u correctly answer these questions you will know JC's true nature.

[RobBryan206]

You are a brave man to take on such a heated topic. God Bless YOU.