Changing words in the anthem does not make it better; it weakens its beauty and is insulting to the composer.
I saw the program last Sunday. The music is a horrible deterioration of the greatness which once was the usual norm. It's sad indeed. I notice via newspapers the Schullers are trying to be certain their salaries are kept....his for the remainder of his life. The poor staff at the Crystal Cathedral was dumped without warning or any explanation, as I understand it.
Back in those days, the way Sean and Tom worked together was terrific. I had the opportunity to see them setting the organ many times. The fine result of their collaborative approach to how the organ sounded and the choir sang shows in this anthem. The choir has such expressive feeling on this one - way to go Sean and choir! Thanks for this inspiration. So sad it is all past.
My heart breaks to behold the decline and possible demise of Rev. Schuller's magnificent ministry and the Crystal Cathedral - a realization of his extraordinary vision and magnetic charisma. I pray for its restoration and hold intention for a new vision - and visionary - to rescue the miniistry and restore it to its former Glory.
I have played this organ and piano, and met Tom Leonard, a consummate and dedicated musician. I am grateful for the magic experience. Praise God!
Well anyone who likes any of this beautiful classic music from Don and The Crystal Cathedral Choir, savor it now. Have you seen what the Schuller daughters are doing to that great church? Their were about 14 members in that choir today and the talent was very slight to say the least. Sadly, I believe that the days of the great HAZEL WRIGHT organ are over! This is going to be another loud clap and life your hands high praise band style. I fear that the CC is going to be extinct very soon!
I watch this broadcast every Sunday for years now, but I should have known something was not right any longer. Now I know...thanks for sharing the honesty & all those other descriptive words. I wish I could hear Robert Jr's interview...
Under the direction of Don Neuen the choir sounded really great, it's a shame that he had to leave after Sheila Schuller's judgemental reaction to the professionaly paid choirmembers. She is ruining the Crystal Cathedral with her "lift your hands happy slappy joy joy evangelical biggot" buffoonery. She also chased away R.Schuller junior calling his sermons not anointed, Schuller jr. gave an extensive interview about this I was hartbroken and sad.
Yes, this is certainly a splendid performance of this piece. Tom Leonard really knows how to accompany a choir, and how to register the organ with beautiful, imaginative, and appropriate sounds. Exquisite!
I really miss this church. I went there every Sunday when I lived in Costa Mesa.....I'm thankful to have been able to spend my Sundays there, even if it was just for a short period in my life.
I guess I shouldn't comment, but much like Latin, there's a reason they call it a "dead language", it cannot change. And I should say that I prefer the original "King James English", much like I did in my old prayer book. But I think we should see past word changes and listen to the magnificence of of this piece. It still takes my breath away.
Actually Jane didn't write the text. She wrote the music around the text of a latin poem "O Deus, ego amo te" and took the English text with just a few small changes from Edward Caswall's translation done in 1849.
I also feel that the old English should be kept throughout. Yes God is our personal Saivior, which "You" is aproppriate for, but the poem creates the image of a KING over all that is -even nonbelievers, and should be praised just for that, and "Thou" and "Thee" are more appropriate.
Was told last week that this was composed as an assignment at SMU (first three letters of the word smut) under Lloyd Pfautsch and she received a B+ for her efforts. That must have been some class if all this piece rated was a B+!!!!! It's an A+++ in my book any day. Out of the ball park. Go Jane! (Perhaps he took off for using old fashioned articles like "Thee" and "Thou".)
@WAX6428 to put things into further perspective, as an undergrad student, my professor of 16th century counterpoint was handed a hand copied composition from Palestrina...which she in turn corrected. Palestrina is basically the father of 16th century counterpoint. It is a matter of personal taste coupled with collegiate politics.
@jerroldtidwell Obviously. This I knew and understood before you were born. Ecclesiastes 1:9. God help you with a professor like that. However, and I just have to ask, did the Palestrina improve or did she just muck it up and ruin a masterpiece?
@WAX6428 Palestrina didn't improve at the hands of my professor. The class was quite aware (under the table, of course) that the composition was a direct rip-off, and none of us were surprised at the resulting corrections...ahh, higher education! LOL
@jerroldtidwell Was listening to your Bach A-Minor, nicely done, may learn that next. Your going to have carpal tunnel if you don't relax those finger. Durufle' (his wife) had me play that way, I survived but four or five of my colleagues dropped out due to hand problems. Bad juju all the way around with that technique. That being said, where's the fugue, what - no milk with the cookies? (Not a bad sound for a 16 rank Moeller.)
@WAX6428 the tension issue is the result of constant rushing through literature for weekend liturgies. Unfortunately, as a music liturgist, music is only a small part of my job! Go figure! I do have the fugue posted on another site, and will post it here. I am long overdue to post some new lit. Thanks for the nudge. ;)
Actually in the text of this anthem she does "Thee" and "Thou". The Crystal Cathedral has a tendency to change the text of a lot anthems as well as hymns and they do it on a regular basis.
I prefer the original language. Marshall didn't write this song back when old english was in common use. She knew what she was doing when she wrote it, and I don't think the average American is too stupid to understand the meaning. Other than that I very much enjoyed this performance.
Yuck, It's Thou and Thee not "you", how common. We should be bringing our best. So silly to change words like this just so one can say that they are being "up to date". NOT ALL PROGRESS IS FORWARD!!!! This church is notorious for changing the words and it is really disconcerting to sing there. Different for the sake of being different is no reason to be different. What's next, updating the Statue of David with a pair of gym shorts? Let art be art.
I believe more people in America use "you" as opposed to "thee" and "thou." I believe the editing was used to make it more universal and embracing of all. It's all about worship, not high-brow performance.
The reality is that when the English translated, they chose the more familiar form of the word "you" -- "thee, thy", etc. Those of us who are 500 years away from that time have taken "thee, and thy" to be holy and a form of God language. For us , you is both familiar and formal. For some it's been a difficult thing to learn.
Mmm... We are singing this piece in Chanters. I believe that when you remove the old language, you take away some of the lyrical value. Not because it's holier or anything, but because it changes the way the words fit to the rhythm of the line. It's just sort detracts from the poetry for me.
Ik vind het allemaal een beetje te ? wordt het woord van God op de achtergrond gezet .Het is gewoon te over dreven.jammer ik hoor liever een gewone psalm en een goed woord
I agree! This is a classic choral piece and should not be messed with! I sing along with this choir every Sunday as a warmup while I am getting ready for church. I sing all the "Thee's" and "Thou's" anyhow- traditional diehard Presbyterians would have it no other way.(At least this one!)
We wouldn't change Bach's lyrics, would we? Why does Jane Marshall deserve any less respect? If one wishes to write lyrics to please the "audience of today", they might consider writing their own music, as well.
I completely agree with you ColumbusKitty. This piece of music is a work of art and shouldn't be tampered with just to appease an ignorant audience of today about form and substance! Those conductors who mess with it should have their arms cut off.
Breathtakingly beautiful singing, but I side with those who prefer the original wording- and theology. I have performed this great work for 40 years and never felt its language or theology were in need of refreshing...
beautfully done. the changes in the lyrics however go beyond the old english. there have also been theological changes as well. i know this poem and arrangement quite well.
How does "Thee" and "Thou" change the meaning when they both mean "you?" I think we sometimes get caught up with unintentional pretentiousness when we focus on wordage rather than the actual worship meaning of the text. We're not back in old England.
The C C Choir director (and Mrs. Shueller herself) will change the text to many of the anthems they do in order to make it more inclusive to everyone rather than to just a traditionalist group. (Ex: "The Majesty of Your Name.")
Changing words in the anthem does not make it better; it weakens its beauty and is insulting to the composer.
I saw the program last Sunday. The music is a horrible deterioration of the greatness which once was the usual norm. It's sad indeed. I notice via newspapers the Schullers are trying to be certain their salaries are kept....his for the remainder of his life. The poor staff at the Crystal Cathedral was dumped without warning or any explanation, as I understand it.
SuperGregorius1 3 months ago
@SuperGregorius1
This is an old video.
.
The chior was $20,000.oo per week.
They are not volunteers from the congregation; but specially commissioned singers.
.
Cheers.
from,
del-boy
YouAreQuiteRight 2 months ago
... absolutely beautiful!!! Bring back the choir!!!!
presbytenor 4 months ago 2
@presbytenor
... bring back the choir!!!!
presbytenor 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@presbytenor
This is an old video.
.
The chior was $20,000.oo per week.
They are not volunteers from the congregation; but specially commissioned singers.
YouAreQuiteRight 2 months ago
Back in those days, the way Sean and Tom worked together was terrific. I had the opportunity to see them setting the organ many times. The fine result of their collaborative approach to how the organ sounded and the choir sang shows in this anthem. The choir has such expressive feeling on this one - way to go Sean and choir! Thanks for this inspiration. So sad it is all past.
friendofcc 4 months ago
Truly a great anthem. Why spoil it by changing the words, though? Very dissapointing.
71259mark 5 months ago
My heart breaks to behold the decline and possible demise of Rev. Schuller's magnificent ministry and the Crystal Cathedral - a realization of his extraordinary vision and magnetic charisma. I pray for its restoration and hold intention for a new vision - and visionary - to rescue the miniistry and restore it to its former Glory.
I have played this organ and piano, and met Tom Leonard, a consummate and dedicated musician. I am grateful for the magic experience. Praise God!
ashrayh 8 months ago 3
Well anyone who likes any of this beautiful classic music from Don and The Crystal Cathedral Choir, savor it now. Have you seen what the Schuller daughters are doing to that great church? Their were about 14 members in that choir today and the talent was very slight to say the least. Sadly, I believe that the days of the great HAZEL WRIGHT organ are over! This is going to be another loud clap and life your hands high praise band style. I fear that the CC is going to be extinct very soon!
panama303 10 months ago 2
@panama303 - I agree wholeheartedly. I will not even watch the broadcasts anymore. What has happened there is DISGRACEFUL to say the least!!!
WoodWendMusic 10 months ago 2
@panama303 please don't say that. You must pray that the church continues to perform well and that it gets back on its feet.
Royalorgans 9 months ago
Tom Leonard is one of the finest the accompanists and church organists out there. And a nice guy too!
caddyorganist 1 year ago
I watch this broadcast every Sunday for years now, but I should have known something was not right any longer. Now I know...thanks for sharing the honesty & all those other descriptive words. I wish I could hear Robert Jr's interview...
Roy1057 1 year ago
Under the direction of Don Neuen the choir sounded really great, it's a shame that he had to leave after Sheila Schuller's judgemental reaction to the professionaly paid choirmembers. She is ruining the Crystal Cathedral with her "lift your hands happy slappy joy joy evangelical biggot" buffoonery. She also chased away R.Schuller junior calling his sermons not anointed, Schuller jr. gave an extensive interview about this I was hartbroken and sad.
Sesquiltera 1 year ago
Yes, this is certainly a splendid performance of this piece. Tom Leonard really knows how to accompany a choir, and how to register the organ with beautiful, imaginative, and appropriate sounds. Exquisite!
njglassman58 1 year ago 3
I'm doing this with my choir on Christ the King Sunday. This is a really spectacular recording of this piece. Stop changing the text though!! :-p
19shea85 1 year ago
I really miss this church. I went there every Sunday when I lived in Costa Mesa.....I'm thankful to have been able to spend my Sundays there, even if it was just for a short period in my life.
LivingMindfully1975 1 year ago
I guess I shouldn't comment, but much like Latin, there's a reason they call it a "dead language", it cannot change. And I should say that I prefer the original "King James English", much like I did in my old prayer book. But I think we should see past word changes and listen to the magnificence of of this piece. It still takes my breath away.
ken23naylor 1 year ago
Comment removed
mlevitt 1 year ago
Actually Jane didn't write the text. She wrote the music around the text of a latin poem "O Deus, ego amo te" and took the English text with just a few small changes from Edward Caswall's translation done in 1849.
I also feel that the old English should be kept throughout. Yes God is our personal Saivior, which "You" is aproppriate for, but the poem creates the image of a KING over all that is -even nonbelievers, and should be praised just for that, and "Thou" and "Thee" are more appropriate.
qmircea 1 year ago
Was told last week that this was composed as an assignment at SMU (first three letters of the word smut) under Lloyd Pfautsch and she received a B+ for her efforts. That must have been some class if all this piece rated was a B+!!!!! It's an A+++ in my book any day. Out of the ball park. Go Jane! (Perhaps he took off for using old fashioned articles like "Thee" and "Thou".)
WAX6428 1 year ago
@WAX6428 to put things into further perspective, as an undergrad student, my professor of 16th century counterpoint was handed a hand copied composition from Palestrina...which she in turn corrected. Palestrina is basically the father of 16th century counterpoint. It is a matter of personal taste coupled with collegiate politics.
jerroldtidwell 1 month ago
@jerroldtidwell Obviously. This I knew and understood before you were born. Ecclesiastes 1:9. God help you with a professor like that. However, and I just have to ask, did the Palestrina improve or did she just muck it up and ruin a masterpiece?
WAX6428 1 month ago
@WAX6428 Palestrina didn't improve at the hands of my professor. The class was quite aware (under the table, of course) that the composition was a direct rip-off, and none of us were surprised at the resulting corrections...ahh, higher education! LOL
jerroldtidwell 1 month ago
@jerroldtidwell Was listening to your Bach A-Minor, nicely done, may learn that next. Your going to have carpal tunnel if you don't relax those finger. Durufle' (his wife) had me play that way, I survived but four or five of my colleagues dropped out due to hand problems. Bad juju all the way around with that technique. That being said, where's the fugue, what - no milk with the cookies? (Not a bad sound for a 16 rank Moeller.)
WAX6428 1 month ago
@WAX6428 the tension issue is the result of constant rushing through literature for weekend liturgies. Unfortunately, as a music liturgist, music is only a small part of my job! Go figure! I do have the fugue posted on another site, and will post it here. I am long overdue to post some new lit. Thanks for the nudge. ;)
jerroldtidwell 1 month ago
Actually in the text of this anthem she does "Thee" and "Thou". The Crystal Cathedral has a tendency to change the text of a lot anthems as well as hymns and they do it on a regular basis.
CoutureOrganiste 1 year ago
I prefer the original language. Marshall didn't write this song back when old english was in common use. She knew what she was doing when she wrote it, and I don't think the average American is too stupid to understand the meaning. Other than that I very much enjoyed this performance.
zot500 1 year ago
Yuck, It's Thou and Thee not "you", how common. We should be bringing our best. So silly to change words like this just so one can say that they are being "up to date". NOT ALL PROGRESS IS FORWARD!!!! This church is notorious for changing the words and it is really disconcerting to sing there. Different for the sake of being different is no reason to be different. What's next, updating the Statue of David with a pair of gym shorts? Let art be art.
WAX6428 1 year ago
I believe more people in America use "you" as opposed to "thee" and "thou." I believe the editing was used to make it more universal and embracing of all. It's all about worship, not high-brow performance.
jobucats 2 years ago
The reality is that when the English translated, they chose the more familiar form of the word "you" -- "thee, thy", etc. Those of us who are 500 years away from that time have taken "thee, and thy" to be holy and a form of God language. For us , you is both familiar and formal. For some it's been a difficult thing to learn.
canonscottage 2 years ago
Mmm... We are singing this piece in Chanters. I believe that when you remove the old language, you take away some of the lyrical value. Not because it's holier or anything, but because it changes the way the words fit to the rhythm of the line. It's just sort detracts from the poetry for me.
BewareSwordflash 1 year ago
Ik vind het allemaal een beetje te ? wordt het woord van God op de achtergrond gezet .Het is gewoon te over dreven.jammer ik hoor liever een gewone psalm en een goed woord
harmjanb 2 years ago
I agree! This is a classic choral piece and should not be messed with! I sing along with this choir every Sunday as a warmup while I am getting ready for church. I sing all the "Thee's" and "Thou's" anyhow- traditional diehard Presbyterians would have it no other way.(At least this one!)
choirsinger123 2 years ago
We wouldn't change Bach's lyrics, would we? Why does Jane Marshall deserve any less respect? If one wishes to write lyrics to please the "audience of today", they might consider writing their own music, as well.
columbuskitty 2 years ago
I completely agree with you ColumbusKitty. This piece of music is a work of art and shouldn't be tampered with just to appease an ignorant audience of today about form and substance! Those conductors who mess with it should have their arms cut off.
furlvr1961 2 years ago
Comment removed
columbuskitty 2 years ago
Comment removed
dependalytical 2 years ago
Breathtakingly beautiful singing, but I side with those who prefer the original wording- and theology. I have performed this great work for 40 years and never felt its language or theology were in need of refreshing...
miltronix 2 years ago
How has the theology changed?
MissGalinda 2 years ago
beautfully done. the changes in the lyrics however go beyond the old english. there have also been theological changes as well. i know this poem and arrangement quite well.
swidds15 2 years ago
How does "Thee" and "Thou" change the meaning when they both mean "you?" I think we sometimes get caught up with unintentional pretentiousness when we focus on wordage rather than the actual worship meaning of the text. We're not back in old England.
The C C Choir director (and Mrs. Shueller herself) will change the text to many of the anthems they do in order to make it more inclusive to everyone rather than to just a traditionalist group. (Ex: "The Majesty of Your Name.")
jobucats 2 years ago
@jobucats Thee vs Thou: In the informal form of address these words are used in the second person to denote a subject or object.
YouAreQuiteRight 2 months ago
I like it! But, I prefer the original text. Something about the "Thee's" and "Thou's" that just makes it seem more HOLY! :-)
WoodWendMusic 2 years ago 2
I agree. If memory serves me correct, the original words are based of a 17 century poem. The "Thee's" and "Thou's" bring the poem true meaning.
Mojeans04 2 years ago