Ah homeschooling... or school in the home. I do agree with you that homeschooling is bad when used for brainwashing. I will make a video response (most likely responding to your unschooling video) one day.... when I find the time to start my videos lol.
That being said, I prefer public schooling, mostly for the social benefits, and from memories that I'd rather have at school than home despite my thought process when I was actually there. My relatives that are homeschooled (half of my 4 aunts homeschool multiple kids each) live in highly populated areas, changing the social benefits as they had homeschool sports and other activities for them, as well as a graduation ceremony, and many other things I'm probably not even aware of.
Thanks for sharing. I think homeschooling is effective, I just worry that if it were the ONLY option, many would lack the resources or know-how to educate effectively.
I'd have to agree 150%. Even in public school you see children who act out all throughout the years due to what goes on at home. One could not hope to expect a large portion of the child population being not only poorly educated, but having their education neglected altogether. But schools shouldn't have to be 'public' in the sense that they are government ran and funded which is where I believe the problem with schools we are seeing exist. Lacks competition and incentive for teachers.
Yes, there are a lot of bad teachers... I am not a fan of tenure... but that's a different topic. How can schools (public or private) attract better teachers? How do we get children interested in learning?
Regarding other quotes on the page including yours Breece. Personal experience and my extended has shown me that if possible, home schooling works better. About half of my extended family was home schooled, I went to public school. I'd easily say that most of my relatives are more of schools knowledge than me without actually being more 'intelligent'. We need and must have education. The issue really comes with the fact that some places are starting to strip people of these rights.
Please stop telling me how sorry you are that I was forced to go to schools that were so harmful for me while simultaneously advocating that I should not have had the choice not to go.
If you can't see the contradiction here, you are not looking for truth, you're closed up on this matter, and that's fine, it's your choice.
Yes, these ideas will be mainstream one day, I just wish it was sooner rather than later.
"I don't understand your point. I like ice cream, but I don't always want ice cream... how can me not wanting to go to school some days equate to schools being 100% voluntary?"
What? I have no idea what you meant there.
All I was asking is, if on days X, Y and Z you didn't wanna go to school, why did you?
"Unschooling is counterproductive... by its very name."
Judging things by name is a very counterproductive way to reach truth. You don't even know what it is, and you're saying it's counterproductive, whatever.
I do know what it is... I do know the advocates... I just think the practice is flawed, it might work for a small percentage, but it will not help the education movement. When I made fun of the name, that was a silly poke, not my proof. I am sorry that we do not agree. However, I hope we can continue to share ideas on other topics.
You assume I haven't already read anyything. Unschooling is not new... John Holt in the 1970's brought the concept forward... the reason the practice is unrealistic is most children lack the foresight to learn the things they will need to know in their adult lives... like I said earlier, look at the youtue video hits... the educational videos fall short to brain draining entertainment videos. Not every kid enjoys reading or learning about the stars, school or no school.
"Not every kid enjoys reading or learning about the stars"
Find me a kid who's never asked about the stars. I don't know any. And they never stop asking until all their answers have been answered, and they have hundreds of, about anything.
It's only after they get imprisoned and molded in the school system that they lose this extreme curiosity for everything.
Asking about the stars and becoming an astronomer are two very different things... you have to take countless math courses too friend... Just because a kid asks a question doesn't mean they'll be studying up on it... When you are a juvenile, yes you ask questions, but when you are a teenageer, you assume to know all... that is when the drop outs kick in and that is when we lose minds... letting them split is a terrible answer. Show me a successful nation that employs such practices. Just one....
I don't mean to be rude, but maybe u too should read the other side... this may be an assumption on my part... but u seem so hell bent on this "radical" idea of unschooling that it comes off very "i know and u don't." I am a product of compulsory education, I have several advanced degrees. I would wager u are the product of compulsory education too and here u are pursuing knowledge in spite of the evils u claim existed. Unschooling may work for some but it is not a blanket alternative to school.
"but u seem so hell bent on this "radical" idea of unschooling that it comes off very "i know and u don't." "
I know I do. I don't mean to. It's just really hard because you're supporting many forms of arbitrary violence against people. Don't feel bad though, almost everyone does.
This hypothesis of everyone being an autodidactic is a bit lofty. Do you see no advantage of compulsory education? What about higher learning, the university?
U r probably right friend. I don't see myself seeing education as slavery like you do - I think ur position lacks real credibility - U still have yet to illustrate 1 instance where it is implemented on a large scale successfully ? I support compulsory ed till high school. I never felt like anything was forced on me - i'm sorry u had such a terrible experience in argentina. i loved school, so much so i went back for muliple degrees - forced - i think not. Make a video response if u have time.
"U still have yet to illustrate 1 instance where it is implemented on a large scale successfully?"
No I don't, I already explained that whether people choose to do something in mass or not doesn't mean it's good or not. Instead, look at every time it's been tried, and you'll find a person who's way healthier, happier and better educated than average
"every time it's been tried, and you'll find a person who's way healthier, happier and better educated than average"
Wow... that is a huge generalization. Do you have the studies to back that up? Every time it's tried huh? I'd be very curious to see some credible numbers on that...
"I support compulsory ed till high school. I never felt like anything was forced on me"
Compulsory MEANS forced. If you liked it, that's fine, but as I said multiple times already, you wanna force it on OTHERS, kids who DON'T like it and DON'T want it.
Did you watch that playlist? It'll explain everything much better than I can.
Compulsory to YOU means forced, to ME it means required, as in a required curriculum. Do you really think a 3rd grader will be lined up at the local library ready to learn? What about those kids who lack the financial resources and mental endurance to excel? Compulsory education is a great tool to create opportunity and prepare young minds. Teachers are supposed to engage children and inspire curiosity. The kids u speak of in these "prison" schools sound like they lack good/qualified teachers.
No, I am sorry. Seriously... kids in this country, in my experience, in my opinion, love school. We have yearbooks and reunions to remember great times. We have teachers that are still imprinted in our hearts. I personally do not want to force anyone to do anythng, however, I know from the experience of once being a child, that guidance is important. If I had the opportunity to drop out at any time I may have, and I wouldnt be as successful as I am today... and that speaks volumes.
Also, maybe it wasn't forced for you, because you generally wanted to go but it is forced for pretty much any child who doesn't want to go.
If you agree with this, then simply saying that it wasn't forced on you because you liked it, doesn't justify it being forced on other kids who didn't, right?
"If you didn't want to go, and it wasn't forced, then why did you go?"
Friends, great teachers, clubs, sports, and above all... what else would I have done... gotten a crummy job... I do that in the summer... it's not that great.
I don't understand your point. I like ice cream, but I don't always want ice cream... how can me not wanting to go to school some days equate to schools being 100% voluntary?
[2] I'm not saying you shouldn't provide advice. By all means, children do need a lot of advice, opinions and info at their disposal.
I'm just saying, let's think of what would happen, if instead of forcing a child to do what you want them to do, you would offer your advice, and then let them make their own choice?
If they trust you, they don't need to understand your reasoning. They'll value your opinion, especially if it's something they don't understand.
[4] just to clarify, the reason they won't value your opinion if you're constantly forcing it on them, is that to them it looks as if it's not that you have their best interest in mind, but that you have your own selfish interest for their future, that contradict with their own interests (because you're forcing your preferences over theirs)
Maybe I' don't give kids enough credit, but you openly assume children will be able to make good decisions that many adults don't even make. Like I said before, Argentina is better for implementing such practices... much better. Countries that lack compulsory education are also the countries that lack EDUCATION. I think we've spoken enough on this topic... I feel like I'm talking in a circle. Let's agree to disagree... Be good friend. Feel free to have the last word.
I don't assume this, it's what made sense for my experience and that of other children I knew, and I started applying this way of thinking about at children and parenting, and it has worked wonderfully, both for predicting, and for achieving things. I haven't had as much practice and interaction as I'd like to, but I've watched and learned a lot. FWIW, There are many people who have this view today. Look into "Unschooling" for example. Or I can send you links.
"will be able to make good decisions that many adults don't even make."
do you think it's good or necessary to force adults to make what X considers to be good decisions?
Even if X was always right, how could it decide for someone else? X can't tell what a good decision is because it doesn't have access to people's feelings and desires, it can only analyze external factors.
Furthermore, as I've said I think helping children is very important, it's only the forcing I have a problem with.
I apologize for responding... I promised you the last word... I just can't resist :)
What do u suggest as an alternative? Do you think voluntary school enrollment will benefit the pulic? Do you think enrollment will go up? What if parents "force" kids to not go in order to work instead? As for ur slavery comment, I chuckled when I read that... slaves weren't allowed an education, not exactly a good analogy. I see what u r trying to say, but it's been done, and it leads to less literacy.
"Do you think voluntary school enrollment will benefit the public?"
Yes. If it's voluntary, for better or for worse, it's what people want.
You can't get any better than that. But you can get a lot worse. When someone forces their preference on others.
"Do you think enrollment will go up? "
No, I think it will go way down, but the amount and quality of knowledge that will go into kids's minds will be increased by several orders of magnitude, because they'll be choosing it
"What if parents "force" kids to not go in order to work instead?"
I think they should be treated as violent criminals.
"it's been done, and it leads to less literacy."
No, it hasn't "been done". Education was enforced because education was needed more at the time, and people had the idea that forcing things to get what you need is good (they still do).
Literacy went up because the economy grew to a point where literacy was more useful.
If a child is able to speak their mind and they tell you in plain words "I don't want your help with this, leave me alone", then to continue to enforce your "help" is tyranny.
The only reason you would do that is because you have power over them, and the only reason they would comply, is because you have power over them.
If you truly wanted something "for their own good" then why would you force your way with total disregard for their preferences?
My friend... we are the exceptions. Most people are NOT self-taught... that is why compulsory education is effective and that is why literacy improved in the 20th century. Most people don't learn... to use ur analogy, why are my videos getting only 100 views, but a video on someone farting, falling on their face, dancing in a bikini or singing about sex getting a million views??? Because people r more into being entertained...
"Because people r more into being entertained... "
Yes, and you think that the solution is to force education down their throats, when in fact that's the root of the problem, or at least a very significant part of it.
If your hypothesis was correct, why do the over whelming majority of adults not fair any better? Why do they not pursue great books and great minds after school is done being forced down their throats? Just answer me this? This intellectual world you envision is my goal in life, but it does not currently exist. The vast majority of the world is ignorant and content with knowing little or they are ignorant and assume they know all... neither personality is condusive to your hypothesis.
I've watched the playlist, I don't agree with it, thanks though...
Calling school slavery is a bit dramatic.
The reason, in my opinion, that most do not pursue such intellectual challenges... is simply that most people are not intellectuals... Being an intellectual does not mean you're smart, only that you know you know nothing and want to know everything you get your hands on... compulsory "organized" education is one of the systems ever created in human history.
I still have yet to see/hear any studies or credible arguments, I only hear that u didn't like school and want to extend the freedom to "drop-out" whenever anyone desires. Good luck with ur activism. It's not pointless. If your ideas are superior, they will eventually be common place, if not, they will slowly disappear. Just for the record, compulsory education at the primary level was affirmed as a HUMAN RIGHT in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, it's not "slavery" as you call it.
Yet at school I only learned about 40 or 50 english words, all the rest I learned on my own, because I found it useful. That's the only reason we learn. That's what I was saying.
I think schools are really bad for people. As for the social environment, it's an environment where they tell you to sit down, shut up and listen, even if you're not interested.
Most kids don't like school, they're only there because they have no choice. If they resist, they will be forced to go anyway. Most don't even try.
But just look at how happy they get when it's the summer season.
With this system of authority, schools teach children that the only reason to learn something is because an authority says that it'll be good for them, and that their personal interests are not important.
This is fundamentally contrasted by the natural and free way of learning, whereby we are drawn towards things we find interesting and don't understand.
Compare how curious and knowledge-seeking children are before and after they start going to school.
I don't agree that school is bad, but I agree that it is currently run/organized/inspired by outdated and apathetic tools. You are right. education needs to invoke desire of thought... still... a strong curriculum provides an educational backbone. I say: have both public and private schools, longer school hours, higher paid teachers, no unions, hi tech class rooms, more advanced course work, and a newly fashioned 21st century teaching style. No school is not a good alternative.
That would be less bad, but still, if it's not voluntary, it won't produce any good.
If it's going to generate an enjoyable and curious environment, it can't be predicated on authority, children should have a choice on whether they choose to be at school, or doing anything else they want.
We have this idea that children won't want to learn if we leave it up to them, but as I said, look at 0-4 year olds and you'll find that the opposite is the case, it's school that kills their curiosity.
Friend - It is not the authority of teachers that is important, but the wisdom and direction. Primary school is mandated, but higher ed IS voluntary. Children just don't one day get up and pursue molecular biology... they've been directed through curriculum.... it's not a simple "ah-ha" step. Most 18 year olds think they know it all... should they just stop? I love that you assume most people are autodidactics, but people generally prefer to be entertained than challenge their personal inquiries
If they prefer to be entertained they should have the right to choose so.
However, picture two worlds, one where people are forced to learn stuff against their will, and one where people are allowed to learn that which they choose to learn.
In which of the two worlds will people be more interested in voluntarily choosing to learn stuff?
In one of them, they tell you from day 1 what you must learn.
In the other, you seek out your own way in life and find out things that are interesting.
I used to love being entertained and hated learning...
But then guess what happened, I finally convinced my parents to stop forcing me to go to school, and I found out that learning on my own was really interesting, fun and useful.
We don't learn that which they force us to learn, we learn that which we find interesting to learn.
A great pianist is one who loves to play the piano, not one who was forced to play more than others.
I disagree strongly.... both philosophically and fundamentally. Education is a choice... it is not forced. Well... I hope one day you are allowed to choose not to go to school. I merely hope that I will always have the opportunity for school.... We obviously see school very differently. Thanks for the good comments friend.
I'm sorry the schools are so poor in Argentina... or at least you think they are. Kids enjoy school in the US... the social interactions alone make up for any boring classwork. Compulsory education varies state by state... some states allow kids to drop out in high school... those individuals don't do too well. I'll say it again, education IS a choice.... maybe you have to attend a certain school for a certain amount of years with certain topics, but YOUR education is ALWAYS YOUR choice.
So u feel that a 4 year old will choose what they want to learn? I don't mean to be rude, but that sounds very silly allowing a child to choose to attend school. That's why we have school, they don't know any better. School is a privelege, not a punishment. I am sorry you look at schools in that way. I know of no one (friends/family) that dropped out of school or even wanted to... maybe they disliked a class or teacher, but not the education. School is a privelege that u seem to want to abandon.
I disagree. I remember when I was 8 I was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up... the answer is very different today than it was then... and mostly because I was "exposed" to ideas and education I wasn't seeking on my own.
Wow. U put a lot of faith in the awareness & wisdom of a 4 year old
"So because u answered something different than u would now, u think than children should have things they don't want forced on them? "
What forcing-I think ur educational experience must have been very different than mine-That's all I can conclude- I loved school all levels- Yes at times I didn't want to go and even times when I didn't but I NEVER would have dropped out and I NEVER considered it forced
If u allowed that kind of autonomy at age 4 or even 13, ur higher ed degrees would most certainly suffer. After independence, Argentina constructed a national public education system in comparison to OTHER nations, placing the country high up in the global rankings of literacy. Today ur country has a literacy rate of 97%and 3 in 8 adults over age 20 have completed secondary school studies or higher, the result of ur so called forcing education. If u remove this mandate u will be going backwards.
A system of "go out and learn whatever" you want" would also be hndered by a lack of qualified teachers... no teaching curriculum, no standards, no standards, no educational certainties.
The info is out there for people to look, teachers put out their stuff, etc.
If people want to go to school that's fine. But we don't need to force anyone.
That's not how schools originated. Schools in the aristotelean sense used to be places where people met voluntarily to talk about stuff they found interesting. No one was forced to be there.
My little sister home schooled, but her kids participated in public school sports & theater. Home schooler's in Texas have to meet same standards as in public schools in order to be accredited for higher education.
In my experience, homeschooling is just another tool in the arsenal of religious indoctrination.
The largest percentage of homeschooled children are from fundamentalist religious families. This is dangerous to society, as it encourages isolationist views, by keeping these children from socializing with kids from other backgrounds.
It instills narrow-minded and bigoted viewpoints in the children, and perpetuates the divisions in society.
I don't think it could be banned, but it should be controlled. The curriculum should be state mandated and enforced.
Unfortunately, parents are still 'free' to indoctrinate their children whether they are homeschooled or not, but at least with a fixed curriculum, other subject areas will be addressed.
If a parent is unable or refuses to teach to the curriculum, the child should be required to atttend public school.
I disagree. We need to make publc schools so good that those who seek otherwise are left behind... pun intended. Mandating what a child is taught... taking away parents rights, may lead to extremes. Thanks for sharing.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Isn't the curriculum at public schools mandated by the state? Why should it be different with the homeschooled?
Making public schools better is absolutely the right thing to do, but it won't have an effect on those parents who homeschool because of their religious viewpoints. You can only hope that their children get a decent eduction by mandating that compulsory courses be taught by all.
Yes public schools are under mandates already, but private schools and homeschools are not. Parents should have the liberty to teach their kids whatever they want.... I guess you could say I'm thinking like a devils advocate... I personally do NOT like homeschools, but don't want to steal freedoms away from parents. The goal should be superior PUBLIC education. Even the crazy religious will fall behind if they dont get the poper credentials from the superior schools. My piece only :)
The state has pumped out androids.
LiarsNightmare 8 months ago
Ah homeschooling... or school in the home. I do agree with you that homeschooling is bad when used for brainwashing. I will make a video response (most likely responding to your unschooling video) one day.... when I find the time to start my videos lol.
UnschoolingEagle 2 years ago
That being said, I prefer public schooling, mostly for the social benefits, and from memories that I'd rather have at school than home despite my thought process when I was actually there. My relatives that are homeschooled (half of my 4 aunts homeschool multiple kids each) live in highly populated areas, changing the social benefits as they had homeschool sports and other activities for them, as well as a graduation ceremony, and many other things I'm probably not even aware of.
Clyaton 2 years ago
Thanks for sharing. I think homeschooling is effective, I just worry that if it were the ONLY option, many would lack the resources or know-how to educate effectively.
kailabreece 2 years ago
I'd have to agree 150%. Even in public school you see children who act out all throughout the years due to what goes on at home. One could not hope to expect a large portion of the child population being not only poorly educated, but having their education neglected altogether. But schools shouldn't have to be 'public' in the sense that they are government ran and funded which is where I believe the problem with schools we are seeing exist. Lacks competition and incentive for teachers.
Clyaton 2 years ago
Yes, there are a lot of bad teachers... I am not a fan of tenure... but that's a different topic. How can schools (public or private) attract better teachers? How do we get children interested in learning?
kailabreece 2 years ago
Regarding other quotes on the page including yours Breece. Personal experience and my extended has shown me that if possible, home schooling works better. About half of my extended family was home schooled, I went to public school. I'd easily say that most of my relatives are more of schools knowledge than me without actually being more 'intelligent'. We need and must have education. The issue really comes with the fact that some places are starting to strip people of these rights.
Clyaton 2 years ago
Please stop telling me how sorry you are that I was forced to go to schools that were so harmful for me while simultaneously advocating that I should not have had the choice not to go.
If you can't see the contradiction here, you are not looking for truth, you're closed up on this matter, and that's fine, it's your choice.
Yes, these ideas will be mainstream one day, I just wish it was sooner rather than later.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"I don't understand your point. I like ice cream, but I don't always want ice cream... how can me not wanting to go to school some days equate to schools being 100% voluntary?"
What? I have no idea what you meant there.
All I was asking is, if on days X, Y and Z you didn't wanna go to school, why did you?
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
Because of the reasons I previously laid out.....
kailabreece 2 years ago
You never did.
If you wanna know more about what I've said here I suggest the channel /user/aaron0883, especially his series on education.
also: /watch?v=h1WC6hNTONg
and on Unschooling, there's this channel you can check out: /user/DaynaLeighMartin
also: w w w "DOT" takingchildrenseriously "DOT" com /node/136
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I do not agree with you. I'm sorry. Unschooling is counterproductive... by its very name.
Thanks for sharing.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Unschooling is counterproductive... by its very name."
Judging things by name is a very counterproductive way to reach truth. You don't even know what it is, and you're saying it's counterproductive, whatever.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I do know what it is... I do know the advocates... I just think the practice is flawed, it might work for a small percentage, but it will not help the education movement. When I made fun of the name, that was a silly poke, not my proof. I am sorry that we do not agree. However, I hope we can continue to share ideas on other topics.
kailabreece 2 years ago
and there's a bunch of authors (mostly psychologists) I can recommend if you want
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
You assume I haven't already read anyything. Unschooling is not new... John Holt in the 1970's brought the concept forward... the reason the practice is unrealistic is most children lack the foresight to learn the things they will need to know in their adult lives... like I said earlier, look at the youtue video hits... the educational videos fall short to brain draining entertainment videos. Not every kid enjoys reading or learning about the stars, school or no school.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Not every kid enjoys reading or learning about the stars"
Find me a kid who's never asked about the stars. I don't know any. And they never stop asking until all their answers have been answered, and they have hundreds of, about anything.
It's only after they get imprisoned and molded in the school system that they lose this extreme curiosity for everything.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
Asking about the stars and becoming an astronomer are two very different things... you have to take countless math courses too friend... Just because a kid asks a question doesn't mean they'll be studying up on it... When you are a juvenile, yes you ask questions, but when you are a teenageer, you assume to know all... that is when the drop outs kick in and that is when we lose minds... letting them split is a terrible answer. Show me a successful nation that employs such practices. Just one....
kailabreece 2 years ago
"When you are a juvenile, yes you ask questions, but when you are a teenageer, you assume to know all..."
because everyone in authority has been forcing you to do irrelevant stuff you never wanted to do and bullshiting about it being "for your own good"
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I don't think that's the reason. It has to do with stages of puberty and levels of maturity.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"I don't think that's the reason. It has to do with stages of puberty and levels of maturity."
Yeah, that's what everyone says. Until they meet someone who was unschooled. And then they have to make some bs up to explain what they see.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
/view_play_list?p=1007F9927382DFE4
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"Show me a successful nation that employs such practices. Just one.... "
By "nation" you mean state. States aren't there to provide a good. They're there to take from people.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
furthermore, the fact that it's not done massively doesn't prove it's not good, especially when there is much evidence to the contrary.
In the 1500's slavery was common and most people thought the earth was flat, find me a nation in the 1500's that didn't have these views.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I don't mean to be rude, but maybe u too should read the other side... this may be an assumption on my part... but u seem so hell bent on this "radical" idea of unschooling that it comes off very "i know and u don't." I am a product of compulsory education, I have several advanced degrees. I would wager u are the product of compulsory education too and here u are pursuing knowledge in spite of the evils u claim existed. Unschooling may work for some but it is not a blanket alternative to school.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"but u seem so hell bent on this "radical" idea of unschooling that it comes off very "i know and u don't." "
I know I do. I don't mean to. It's just really hard because you're supporting many forms of arbitrary violence against people. Don't feel bad though, almost everyone does.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"I would wager u are the product of compulsory education too and here u are pursuing knowledge in spite of the evils u claim existed."
Indeed, but I learned everything I know despite compulsory education, not because of it.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
:) So you think.
This hypothesis of everyone being an autodidactic is a bit lofty. Do you see no advantage of compulsory education? What about higher learning, the university?
kailabreece 2 years ago
"you see no advantage of compulsory education?"
I see no advantage in force, and I see a hell of a lot of harm coming from it.
We've gone over this already, if you force someone they're not going to trust you and they're not going to like doing what you force them to do.
If you still haven't made any progress in your views so far, I have to say I doubt you ever will
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
U r probably right friend. I don't see myself seeing education as slavery like you do - I think ur position lacks real credibility - U still have yet to illustrate 1 instance where it is implemented on a large scale successfully ? I support compulsory ed till high school. I never felt like anything was forced on me - i'm sorry u had such a terrible experience in argentina. i loved school, so much so i went back for muliple degrees - forced - i think not. Make a video response if u have time.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"U still have yet to illustrate 1 instance where it is implemented on a large scale successfully?"
No I don't, I already explained that whether people choose to do something in mass or not doesn't mean it's good or not. Instead, look at every time it's been tried, and you'll find a person who's way healthier, happier and better educated than average
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"every time it's been tried, and you'll find a person who's way healthier, happier and better educated than average"
Wow... that is a huge generalization. Do you have the studies to back that up? Every time it's tried huh? I'd be very curious to see some credible numbers on that...
kailabreece 2 years ago
"I support compulsory ed till high school. I never felt like anything was forced on me"
Compulsory MEANS forced. If you liked it, that's fine, but as I said multiple times already, you wanna force it on OTHERS, kids who DON'T like it and DON'T want it.
Did you watch that playlist? It'll explain everything much better than I can.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
Compulsory to YOU means forced, to ME it means required, as in a required curriculum. Do you really think a 3rd grader will be lined up at the local library ready to learn? What about those kids who lack the financial resources and mental endurance to excel? Compulsory education is a great tool to create opportunity and prepare young minds. Teachers are supposed to engage children and inspire curiosity. The kids u speak of in these "prison" schools sound like they lack good/qualified teachers.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"i'm sorry u had such a terrible experience in argentina"
No you're not. If you were, you wouldn't be supporting other kids going through that.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
No, I am sorry. Seriously... kids in this country, in my experience, in my opinion, love school. We have yearbooks and reunions to remember great times. We have teachers that are still imprinted in our hearts. I personally do not want to force anyone to do anythng, however, I know from the experience of once being a child, that guidance is important. If I had the opportunity to drop out at any time I may have, and I wouldnt be as successful as I am today... and that speaks volumes.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Unschooling may work for some but it is not a blanket alternative to school."
I don't think people should be forcibly prevented from going to school. But you're saying they should be forced to go.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
A lot of them lose it even earlier on, when their parents attack them physically or verbally, aggressively or passively, for asking questions.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
*parents or other people who have authority over them
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I missed this:
"I loved school all levels-"
That's fine, in that case you should go.
"Yes at times I didn't want to go and even times when I didn't but I NEVER would have dropped out and I NEVER considered it forced"
If you didn't want to go, and it wasn't forced, then why did you go?
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I mean, why did you go those times where you didn't want to go, if nobody was going to force you to go or punish you in some way for not going?
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
Also, maybe it wasn't forced for you, because you generally wanted to go but it is forced for pretty much any child who doesn't want to go.
If you agree with this, then simply saying that it wasn't forced on you because you liked it, doesn't justify it being forced on other kids who didn't, right?
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
*other kids who don't
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"If you didn't want to go, and it wasn't forced, then why did you go?"
Friends, great teachers, clubs, sports, and above all... what else would I have done... gotten a crummy job... I do that in the summer... it's not that great.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Friends, great teachers, clubs, sports,"
So you did want to go. But you said sometimes you didn't.
If you didn't want to go then those times the friends and teachers and clubs and sports weren't enough, right?
Otherwise you would've wanted to go those times.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I don't understand your point. I like ice cream, but I don't always want ice cream... how can me not wanting to go to school some days equate to schools being 100% voluntary?
kailabreece 2 years ago
I don't mean to put pressure on you, just asking question, answer if you feel comfortable
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
*questions
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
[1] "If u allowed that kind of autonomy at age 4 or even 13, ur higher ed degrees would most certainly suffer"
That simply reflects the fact that people would not be that interested in pursuing education.
What you are talking about is forcing children to do that which they don't want to do. You're treating them as slaves.
Children are people. They have feelings and desires, and they have just as much a right as anyone else to make their own decisions.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
[2] I'm not saying you shouldn't provide advice. By all means, children do need a lot of advice, opinions and info at their disposal.
I'm just saying, let's think of what would happen, if instead of forcing a child to do what you want them to do, you would offer your advice, and then let them make their own choice?
If they trust you, they don't need to understand your reasoning. They'll value your opinion, especially if it's something they don't understand.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
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[3] But if you're constantly forcing them against their wishes, then you are ignoring their preferences and imposing yours.
There's no way that this kind of relationship will be one where there's mutual trust.
And so the child will not value your opinion, and it may seem to you that you now need to use force, but that just strenghtens the cycle.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
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[4] just to clarify, the reason they won't value your opinion if you're constantly forcing it on them, is that to them it looks as if it's not that you have their best interest in mind, but that you have your own selfish interest for their future, that contradict with their own interests (because you're forcing your preferences over theirs)
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
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[5] If you truly valued their preferences the same way you do with your adult friends, then what you would do is offer advice, not force.
Children don't wanna hurt themselves, they want to learn and grow and achieve things, the same as anyone else. They're rational beings, too.
They just don't have as much info and experience. They don't understand that much about the world, but they know it. And they want to understand.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
[6] Think about your average 1-4 year old. You can't stop these kids from asking questions. They want to understand everything.
I think the only reason we lose that curiosity later on is because of having things forced on us all the time. Especially regarding knowledge.
I now learn more super interesting stuff in an average week than I did in a year at school. And I have a lot of fun doing it, too! I hated school.
Maybe not everyone is like this, but they should have the choice.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
Maybe I' don't give kids enough credit, but you openly assume children will be able to make good decisions that many adults don't even make. Like I said before, Argentina is better for implementing such practices... much better. Countries that lack compulsory education are also the countries that lack EDUCATION. I think we've spoken enough on this topic... I feel like I'm talking in a circle. Let's agree to disagree... Be good friend. Feel free to have the last word.
kailabreece 2 years ago
I don't assume this, it's what made sense for my experience and that of other children I knew, and I started applying this way of thinking about at children and parenting, and it has worked wonderfully, both for predicting, and for achieving things. I haven't had as much practice and interaction as I'd like to, but I've watched and learned a lot. FWIW, There are many people who have this view today. Look into "Unschooling" for example. Or I can send you links.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"will be able to make good decisions that many adults don't even make."
do you think it's good or necessary to force adults to make what X considers to be good decisions?
Even if X was always right, how could it decide for someone else? X can't tell what a good decision is because it doesn't have access to people's feelings and desires, it can only analyze external factors.
Furthermore, as I've said I think helping children is very important, it's only the forcing I have a problem with.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I apologize for responding... I promised you the last word... I just can't resist :)
What do u suggest as an alternative? Do you think voluntary school enrollment will benefit the pulic? Do you think enrollment will go up? What if parents "force" kids to not go in order to work instead? As for ur slavery comment, I chuckled when I read that... slaves weren't allowed an education, not exactly a good analogy. I see what u r trying to say, but it's been done, and it leads to less literacy.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Do you think voluntary school enrollment will benefit the public?"
Yes. If it's voluntary, for better or for worse, it's what people want.
You can't get any better than that. But you can get a lot worse. When someone forces their preference on others.
"Do you think enrollment will go up? "
No, I think it will go way down, but the amount and quality of knowledge that will go into kids's minds will be increased by several orders of magnitude, because they'll be choosing it
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"What if parents "force" kids to not go in order to work instead?"
I think they should be treated as violent criminals.
"it's been done, and it leads to less literacy."
No, it hasn't "been done". Education was enforced because education was needed more at the time, and people had the idea that forcing things to get what you need is good (they still do).
Literacy went up because the economy grew to a point where literacy was more useful.
State education has always grown since then.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
The fact that the state imposed mandatory education, doesn't prove that mandatory education produced literacy.
I think literacy would have grown much faster and wider if it wasn't for state education.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
If a child is able to speak their mind and they tell you in plain words "I don't want your help with this, leave me alone", then to continue to enforce your "help" is tyranny.
The only reason you would do that is because you have power over them, and the only reason they would comply, is because you have power over them.
If you truly wanted something "for their own good" then why would you force your way with total disregard for their preferences?
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
All this stuff can be really hard to process, I understand that.
And we just may have to agree to disagree.
Feel free to respond if you want.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I will only say.... thank you for the fun dialogue.
kailabreece 2 years ago
one more thing... by posting videos like this one, you are proving that people want to self educate.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
My friend... we are the exceptions. Most people are NOT self-taught... that is why compulsory education is effective and that is why literacy improved in the 20th century. Most people don't learn... to use ur analogy, why are my videos getting only 100 views, but a video on someone farting, falling on their face, dancing in a bikini or singing about sex getting a million views??? Because people r more into being entertained...
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Because people r more into being entertained... "
Yes, and you think that the solution is to force education down their throats, when in fact that's the root of the problem, or at least a very significant part of it.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
If your hypothesis was correct, why do the over whelming majority of adults not fair any better? Why do they not pursue great books and great minds after school is done being forced down their throats? Just answer me this? This intellectual world you envision is my goal in life, but it does not currently exist. The vast majority of the world is ignorant and content with knowing little or they are ignorant and assume they know all... neither personality is condusive to your hypothesis.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Why do they not pursue great books and great minds after school is done being forced down their throats?"
Because they've already associated reading and learning with submission to authority. With slavery.
Not everyone frees themselves from these mental shackles which are created in childhood through physical and psychological abuse.
But that doesn't mean we need the shackles, just the opposite. Watch that playlist by aaron0883, I think you won't regret it
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I've watched the playlist, I don't agree with it, thanks though...
Calling school slavery is a bit dramatic.
The reason, in my opinion, that most do not pursue such intellectual challenges... is simply that most people are not intellectuals... Being an intellectual does not mean you're smart, only that you know you know nothing and want to know everything you get your hands on... compulsory "organized" education is one of the systems ever created in human history.
kailabreece 2 years ago
Ok, you liked school so now you want to force everyone else to go, and you don't care if THEY want to go or not.
That's the root of all the problems in the world. Thinking that forcing people to get your way is a good method for achieving things. It's not.
All you can achieve through violence, is destruction.
I'm not gonna continue with this, it's pointless.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I still have yet to see/hear any studies or credible arguments, I only hear that u didn't like school and want to extend the freedom to "drop-out" whenever anyone desires. Good luck with ur activism. It's not pointless. If your ideas are superior, they will eventually be common place, if not, they will slowly disappear. Just for the record, compulsory education at the primary level was affirmed as a HUMAN RIGHT in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, it's not "slavery" as you call it.
kailabreece 2 years ago
Do you think I speak good english?
Very few people do in Argentina. Less than 1%.
Yet at school I only learned about 40 or 50 english words, all the rest I learned on my own, because I found it useful. That's the only reason we learn. That's what I was saying.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I think schools are really bad for people. As for the social environment, it's an environment where they tell you to sit down, shut up and listen, even if you're not interested.
Most kids don't like school, they're only there because they have no choice. If they resist, they will be forced to go anyway. Most don't even try.
But just look at how happy they get when it's the summer season.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
With this system of authority, schools teach children that the only reason to learn something is because an authority says that it'll be good for them, and that their personal interests are not important.
This is fundamentally contrasted by the natural and free way of learning, whereby we are drawn towards things we find interesting and don't understand.
Compare how curious and knowledge-seeking children are before and after they start going to school.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I don't agree that school is bad, but I agree that it is currently run/organized/inspired by outdated and apathetic tools. You are right. education needs to invoke desire of thought... still... a strong curriculum provides an educational backbone. I say: have both public and private schools, longer school hours, higher paid teachers, no unions, hi tech class rooms, more advanced course work, and a newly fashioned 21st century teaching style. No school is not a good alternative.
kailabreece 2 years ago
That would be less bad, but still, if it's not voluntary, it won't produce any good.
If it's going to generate an enjoyable and curious environment, it can't be predicated on authority, children should have a choice on whether they choose to be at school, or doing anything else they want.
We have this idea that children won't want to learn if we leave it up to them, but as I said, look at 0-4 year olds and you'll find that the opposite is the case, it's school that kills their curiosity.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
Friend - It is not the authority of teachers that is important, but the wisdom and direction. Primary school is mandated, but higher ed IS voluntary. Children just don't one day get up and pursue molecular biology... they've been directed through curriculum.... it's not a simple "ah-ha" step. Most 18 year olds think they know it all... should they just stop? I love that you assume most people are autodidactics, but people generally prefer to be entertained than challenge their personal inquiries
kailabreece 2 years ago
If they prefer to be entertained they should have the right to choose so.
However, picture two worlds, one where people are forced to learn stuff against their will, and one where people are allowed to learn that which they choose to learn.
In which of the two worlds will people be more interested in voluntarily choosing to learn stuff?
In one of them, they tell you from day 1 what you must learn.
In the other, you seek out your own way in life and find out things that are interesting.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I used to love being entertained and hated learning...
But then guess what happened, I finally convinced my parents to stop forcing me to go to school, and I found out that learning on my own was really interesting, fun and useful.
We don't learn that which they force us to learn, we learn that which we find interesting to learn.
A great pianist is one who loves to play the piano, not one who was forced to play more than others.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I disagree strongly.... both philosophically and fundamentally. Education is a choice... it is not forced. Well... I hope one day you are allowed to choose not to go to school. I merely hope that I will always have the opportunity for school.... We obviously see school very differently. Thanks for the good comments friend.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"Education is a choice... it is not forced. "
Yeah, tell that to any kid aged 4-18.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I'm sorry the schools are so poor in Argentina... or at least you think they are. Kids enjoy school in the US... the social interactions alone make up for any boring classwork. Compulsory education varies state by state... some states allow kids to drop out in high school... those individuals don't do too well. I'll say it again, education IS a choice.... maybe you have to attend a certain school for a certain amount of years with certain topics, but YOUR education is ALWAYS YOUR choice.
kailabreece 2 years ago
It's not about Argentina or the US, anywhere in the world, if a child decides they don't wanna go to school, they're forced to go anyway.
I don't know what schools you're talking about, but kids don't choose whether they go to school or not, as far as I know.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
So u feel that a 4 year old will choose what they want to learn? I don't mean to be rude, but that sounds very silly allowing a child to choose to attend school. That's why we have school, they don't know any better. School is a privelege, not a punishment. I am sorry you look at schools in that way. I know of no one (friends/family) that dropped out of school or even wanted to... maybe they disliked a class or teacher, but not the education. School is a privelege that u seem to want to abandon.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"So u feel that a 4 year old will choose what they want to learn?"
Most definitely.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
I disagree. I remember when I was 8 I was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up... the answer is very different today than it was then... and mostly because I was "exposed" to ideas and education I wasn't seeking on my own.
Thank you for your good words friend.
kailabreece 2 years ago
"I remember when I was 8 I was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up"
So because you answered something different than you would now, you think than children should have things they don't want forced on them?
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
"Most definetly"
Wow. U put a lot of faith in the awareness & wisdom of a 4 year old
"So because u answered something different than u would now, u think than children should have things they don't want forced on them? "
What forcing-I think ur educational experience must have been very different than mine-That's all I can conclude- I loved school all levels- Yes at times I didn't want to go and even times when I didn't but I NEVER would have dropped out and I NEVER considered it forced
kailabreece 2 years ago
If u allowed that kind of autonomy at age 4 or even 13, ur higher ed degrees would most certainly suffer. After independence, Argentina constructed a national public education system in comparison to OTHER nations, placing the country high up in the global rankings of literacy. Today ur country has a literacy rate of 97%and 3 in 8 adults over age 20 have completed secondary school studies or higher, the result of ur so called forcing education. If u remove this mandate u will be going backwards.
kailabreece 2 years ago
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NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
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NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
the response system got fucked up. resposting
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
A system of "go out and learn whatever" you want" would also be hndered by a lack of qualified teachers... no teaching curriculum, no standards, no standards, no educational certainties.
kailabreece 2 years ago
The info is out there for people to look, teachers put out their stuff, etc.
If people want to go to school that's fine. But we don't need to force anyone.
That's not how schools originated. Schools in the aristotelean sense used to be places where people met voluntarily to talk about stuff they found interesting. No one was forced to be there.
Like youtube.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
It's true that most homeschooling in America is done by religious fundamentalists, and that's sad.
NoCryingNowYes 2 years ago
My little sister home schooled, but her kids participated in public school sports & theater. Home schooler's in Texas have to meet same standards as in public schools in order to be accredited for higher education.
TexanCyclist 2 years ago
Why doesn't the government just take our infants and raise them to adulthood?
ShaunaDDye 2 years ago
In my experience, homeschooling is just another tool in the arsenal of religious indoctrination.
The largest percentage of homeschooled children are from fundamentalist religious families. This is dangerous to society, as it encourages isolationist views, by keeping these children from socializing with kids from other backgrounds.
It instills narrow-minded and bigoted viewpoints in the children, and perpetuates the divisions in society.
Religious indoctrination is Child Abuse!
hal2017 2 years ago
I agree friend. Are you opposed to it completely... in the sense that it should be banned through gov't mandates???
kailabreece 2 years ago
I don't think it could be banned, but it should be controlled. The curriculum should be state mandated and enforced.
Unfortunately, parents are still 'free' to indoctrinate their children whether they are homeschooled or not, but at least with a fixed curriculum, other subject areas will be addressed.
If a parent is unable or refuses to teach to the curriculum, the child should be required to atttend public school.
hal2017 2 years ago
I disagree. We need to make publc schools so good that those who seek otherwise are left behind... pun intended. Mandating what a child is taught... taking away parents rights, may lead to extremes. Thanks for sharing.
kailabreece 2 years ago
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Isn't the curriculum at public schools mandated by the state? Why should it be different with the homeschooled?
Making public schools better is absolutely the right thing to do, but it won't have an effect on those parents who homeschool because of their religious viewpoints. You can only hope that their children get a decent eduction by mandating that compulsory courses be taught by all.
hal2017 2 years ago
Yes public schools are under mandates already, but private schools and homeschools are not. Parents should have the liberty to teach their kids whatever they want.... I guess you could say I'm thinking like a devils advocate... I personally do NOT like homeschools, but don't want to steal freedoms away from parents. The goal should be superior PUBLIC education. Even the crazy religious will fall behind if they dont get the poper credentials from the superior schools. My piece only :)
kailabreece 2 years ago