Bjorn has an economist/environmentalist approach to saving the world from global warming. We need change now, no doubt about it! However, we only have money to invest in saving the world ONCE. Bjorn gathers the worlds greatest economist and tries to answer those questions; where should we REALLY invest our worlds money and get the best bang for our buck. It's certainly a more realistic method of trying to fix our world's problems besides SCARING everybody into trying to contribute.
Sorry but I'm skeptical of Lomborg... he says it's not the end of the world, that may be true, but global population is expected to rise to something like 9 billion or more by 2050... with this many people I think there will be far less room for disaster, in that an unusually strong storm that floods croplands could have potentially disastrous effects for a large group of people dependent on said croplands... this is the kind of stuff that worries me
I have a friend who`s doing a report on this video. Lomberg and Gore need to meet and come to an agreement. Seems Lomberg is reasonable on this subject. Now lets get the job done!
@VanWADebbie That would be nice but Lomborg desires to to the most good with the resources we have and Al Gore is involved in a scam - carbon credit training. Putting these two together is like putting a priest, an honest one, and a gangster together.
@HarpoSpoke While I would agree, I am not so pessimistic that I lose my will to act in spite of circumstances. And I'd encourage that nobody else does either.
The trouble with the label "Global Warming" is that we won't just be seeing heat increases - we will be seeing more extremes in weather phenomenon. His claim that there will be fewer "cold deaths" is wrong because climate change will bring terrible winters (Florida's freezes over the past decade; east coast snows) as well as heat waves.
Precipitation amounts will change as well: Russia is in famine due to drought while the US Midwest is dealing with record rain amounts (15" in 30 hrs!),
It's to sad that he is thinking with his wallet. Growth is finite; it's a fact! And all he talks about is how the people are going to adapt. But what about the animals? Did he even think about them, or does he see the Global Warming only as a threat to humans? And that the only answer to everything from IPCC and Al Gore is "cut carbon emissions"? Has he even read their papers, about deforestation, overfishing etc? Can we stop that, due to "stop shooting polar bears"?
you will find an important rational calm radio interview given by Howard Friel, author of 'The Lonborg Deception' - it's important you listen to this too.
You will also find the usual knee jerk counter attack
for the bigure picture - there is also a podcast of question time afterwards - if you are interested in reality that is rather than a rhetoritians glossy self-publicity...
@ESTAndrew -this guy is a climate warming denier because he states without evidence that the effect of global warming will not that be bad (which is the same narrative of his "THE SKEPTICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST" 'book" and is explicitly apposed to cutting CO2 emission but rather go down the geo-engineering path. Big Oil love this guy.
@ESTAndrew He hoesn't say that we should do nothing. He says we are priorityzing in the wrong field. We should tackle desease, malnutrition, hunger and so on. Is that doing nothing?
@tejo29se well it fixes malnutrition and all these disease but...its not stopping the water rising
Is he saying we should adapt to the changes? cause I dont see how getting old ppl air conditioning is stopping the water from rising maybe im missing something here
@ESTAndrew In his book Cool It he says ice replaces itself. Its common sense when you think about it. When you fill a glass with ice and let it melt it does not rise once its melted, its actually very logical. Sometimes we just need someone to put it into perspective. Therefor we need someone like Bjørn Lomborg.
@radoa1 I do not know what he wants us to do to address AGW. I know he wants us to treat malnutrition and so on instead of focussing on AGW alone. But then another problem occurs. He says we cant do everything. I think I just cannot explain it. And don't tell me I told you so. I cannot explain it.
@tejo29se -you dont make sense - one minute you defend him and the next you admit that you dont know what he proposes to do about climate change now. I wonder why he doesnt apply his "cant do everything approach" to imperialist wars???
@tejo29se I me try and understand you. You will back him all the way yet you dont know what he wants to do to address AGW. IIt clear to me now.. Tejo - you are a first class dropkick.
I think Mr. Lomborg grossly understates the damage to global wealth that AlGore's massive increase in government intervention would cause.
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He talks of a smaller increase in wealth, but what isn't being said is the results of the upcoming global economic collapse caused by hyperinflation, a marked and prolonged DECREASE in wealth.
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Want to see pollution? See what happens when people have to go low-tech to survive!
I agree that the micro-fixes you suggest would have some minor positive benefits.
However, it's clear that you "can't see the forest for the trees". Try taking a step back and widening your perspectives to some new information sources. Then you may begin to see what TZMSocialEvolution and I are talking about.
@andyl1988 "Try taking a step back and widening your perspectives to some new information sources."
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That's how I came to realize that robbing people does not increase prosperity.
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The worse polluters on the planet are governments. This economic downturn was caused by governments. Governments kill more people than any other factor save old age.
This guy is hilarious around the 24+ minute mark. He gets into talking about how the Maldives needs to be really rich in the future to prevent the negative aspects of global warming... What does he think they're gonna do? Build defenses out of cash?
He clearly has no grasp that it's resources and human ingenuity that can help us survive - not a massive global GDP!
I bet he's very popular amongst the wealthy of the planet though, bankers and congress etc. must love him.
@andyl1988 "Money has truly blinded this guy to the real solutions to problems in this world. "
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Sorry, but it's true. Wealthy people use that wealth to live healthier, longer lives.
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So if you want to "save the world", then promote free market capitalism everywhere. Their birth rates will also drop, as has happened in every wealthy country.
@CurtHowland -how silly of you to promote laissez-faire capitalism in light of its effects and consequences when applied within the financial and energy sector.
@radoa1 Really? Can you point out where it's been tried?
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Last I saw, government controlled fiat currencies and government central banks and government regulated financial industries have been a disaster.
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If you mean "Enron", you need to do your homework. Their entire business model depended upon trading government energy credits, and when that didn't happen their pyramid scheme collapsed.
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Really, please point out where laissez-faire has failed. Please.
@CurtHowland- ahh American Capitalism. What do they call it "creative accounting????" Enron, AIG, Parmalat, CMS Energy, Adelphia, AOL, Britol-Myers Squibb, Duke Energy, Dynegy, El Paso Corporation, Global Crossing, Halliburton, Harken Energy, HealthSouth, Lucent Technologies, Merck, Merrill Lynch, Mirant, Peregrine Systems, Qwest Communications, Reliant Energy, Sunbeam, Tyco, Waste Management, WorldCom, Xerox and Daewoo are all part of the deregulated market story
@radoa1 "are all part of the deregulated market story"
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I'm actually impressed. You've conflated merchantilism, inflation-driven malinvestment and perfectly fine companies into one big group you get to hate.
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Considering that the various governments have done nothing but grow, regulating and taxing ever more, I'm left to wonder just what it is you define as "deregulation"?
@CurtHowland - is seems pretty systematic to me. You're seriously denying a lack of govt intervention and regulatory oversight in these sectors over the course of the last 30 years?? Are you familiar with the history of capitalism??
@radoa1 "You're seriously denying a lack of govt intervention and regulatory oversight in these sectors..."
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Yes. I am denying that there is any lack of government intervention and regulation. In fact, every failure you cite is directly and specifically caused by government regulation and intervention.
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"Are you familiar with the history of capitalism??"
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Yes. You owe it to yourself to read "The Anti-Capitalist Mentality".
@CurtHowland - I dont subscribe to your Ayn Rand world. Can you apply it to real world events? What regulations and govt interventions do you claim to have caused past failures and today's failures? .
@radoa1 "Can you explain the nature of these failures through mercantilism?"
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Yes.
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"Can you give me a couple of examples?"
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How about the present economic collapse? In 1996, Greenspan lowered interest rates to get Clinton re-elected. This caused the dot com boom/bust, when interest rates were lowered more. This caused the housing boom and mal-investment splurge, which has led to this, even bigger, bust.
Greenspan reduced interest rates three times in the space of several weeks. This was a signal that the Fed would do everything in its power to prevent the stock market bubble from bursting and thereby underwrite the fortunes of Wall Street speculators. What you have described is the essence of capitalism
@radoa1 No, good sir, what you have described is "state capitalism" or "merchantilism".
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That's the problem with the word "capitalism", it's been used by people to describe everything from actual free market to Fascism, to the point it's practically meaningless.
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The fascistic institution of the Federal Reserve is abominable, I agree, but let's call it what it really is: The 5th Plank of Marx's Communist Manifesto.
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Nothing to do with a free market, in fact it's the opposite.
@CurtHowland - oh to the contrary - it fits in really well. May i quote Chomsky - "the free market does not apply to the elites but it does for the rest of us"
@radoa1 Since you refuse to listen to the answer to your question, why are you asking the question?
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You already have made up your mind what "capitalism" is, even though your definition contains a great deal of Marx's Communist Manifesto. Why use the word at all?
@CurtHowland - no its because you give an irrational explanation to real world events. You dont make sense. There isnt a better understanding of how capitalism works than through a Marxist Analysis. We see time and again the govt will intervene for the interest of the ruling class. Imperialism and fascism are expression of capitalism in crisis. The Wall street bail out was the ultimate example of theft from the masses.
@radoa1 "Imperialism and fascism are expression of capitalism in crisis. The Wall street bail out was the ultimate example of theft from the masses."
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What you don't seem to understand is that I agree with you. What you don't get is that government intervention violates private property, the basis of a free market.
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The abuses you identify are not caused by de-regulation, free markets, private property, or even profit. They are all government interventions. Socialism!
@radoa1 Another example: Pollution. When the "smokestack" industries began, people were suing them for pollution as trespassing. Makes sense.
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Government stepped in and made such suits illegal, because it "retarded industry". So polluters have been explicitly protected and govt granted limited liability stops the executives who decide to pollute from being prosecuted for those decisions.
@radoa1 Do you understand what "merchantilist" means?
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It's government regulation to favor certain industries or firms or individuals over others by law.
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For example, a business license is a merchantilist artifact, a restriction upon others competing with established providers.
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Incorporation itself is a merchantilist institution, originally given as monopoly grants to specific politically favored firms. The "East India Company" for example.
@radoa1 Ask the bureaucrats to whom I buy license plates, pay property taxes, pay business taxes, license professionals, etc.
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And who, if I choose to simply do nothing, will take everything I have for "back taxes" at rates they set and change at will.
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The sheen of private property which still exists is why people are as productive as they are. When that last veneer is removed, what economy is left collapses.
@CurtHowland - that doest cut it. The last 30 years has seen a open and aggressive class war waged by the Bourgeoisie built on a program of privatisation, deregulation, tax breaks, tax havens, subsidies, bailouts and imperialism using US tools such as the IMF, World Bank and WTO. We see the the outcomes with the concentration of wealth, the growing divide b/w the have and have nots, and the shrinking of the petite bourgeoisie - monopoly capitalism.
@radoa1 Since you so very conveniently give the Glass-Steagall act example, can you at least bother to read one article where your specific example is given the treatment it deserves?
@CurtHowland - video's?? I ask you for regs and govt intervenation and thier relationships to current events and you give me video's. And you call others lazy?Or is their another reason? Correct me if I am wrong. Did Mises wrote of his economic methodology that "its statements and propositions are not derived from experience... They are not subject to verification or falsification on the ground of experience and facts."???????
You waste my time with your spin that 's based on an interpretation of the world that cannot be tested or verified?? Your so called Austrian "School" has no theoretical credibility of its own and it shows in your analytical skills of social relations. In science or for any empirical study in our modern era, any untestable theory is basically mysticism.
Respond to this video...Austrian school does not produce any theories because it doesnt believe in empirical evidence. and is thus hopelessly unscientific. All you seem have is faith. Not a credible base for economic analysis and forcasting.
@radoa1 If you are interested in actually learning about the Austrian tradition of economics, the Mises institute posted a "Primer on Austrian Economics" on Friday that may help.
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mises dot org/daily/4390
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"Economics is the science that studies these individual agents of the market and how they coordinate through the price mechanism to create, not just what the mainstream considers "the market," but society as a whole, all without the necessity of a central planner or authority."
I agree, Chicago school economics is a waste of time. Friedman was an excellent speaker, but he never went far enough with his own logic. I think he was afraid.
"Left" refers to the left side of the French Parlament, those opposed to the entrenched govt elite. Austrian economics is classical liberal, "left", not right.
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Also, Fascism is "socialism light", private titular ownership of the means of production, but only under tight govt regulation.
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I oppose govt regulation, so I cannot be a Fascist.
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Have you considered actually reading economics, so you don't argue from ignorance?
@CurtHowland - Regulation??? Ignorant??? My goodness - you never stop with your unscientific interpretation. Are you aware of Trotsky's "Fascism - what it is and how to fight it" written at its height rather than a postmodernist view?? No?? How did I guess. You would be quite comfortable in a fascist state. After all, wasnt Mises part of a fascist state government??
@radoa1 "No?? How did I guess." . You could provide a link to the text, then I won't say "no". . "You would be quite comfortable in a fascist state." . Liar. Fascism is government regulation. I oppose government regulation. . "After all, wasnt Mises part of a fascist state government?" . More ignorance on your part. He helped Austria avoid Fascism, which is why the Austrian economy avoided the worst of the Great Depression, until annexed by Fascist Germany. Being Jewish, he left in a hurry.
@CurtHowland Corporation dictate govt policy - not the other way around. From the financial sector, to energy, to transportation to manufacturing for the benefits of their shareholders, regardless of the environmental, human and social costs. Did you hear today - BP have announced that they will be paying their shareholders a dividend in light of the worst enviro disaster in US history.
I say bring on the free market. Let have it for all for this would be capitalism death roll.
@radoa1 "say bring on the free market. Let have it for all for this would be capitalism death roll."
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Think about this: Your complaint is that some big company has its liability limited by government, and you blame the company?
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Yes indeed, I'm all for a completely free market, where the executives of such companies would be personally liable for the decisions they make. No limited liability.
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And why aren't the government inspectors, who stopped inspecting, being prosecuted too?
@CurtHowland - you really digging yourself into a bigger hole
"Think about this: Your complaint is that some big company has its liability limited by government, and you blame the company?
Re-read the post. Real power is held in the corporate board rooms. They determine govt policy. You think the corporation wants unlimited liability?? Who ignorant now?
Let's see. I oppose the limited liability of government because it is abused. You oppose corporate control of the limited liability of government because they abuse it.
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It seems to me that you're only arguing with yourself.
Good sir, the only institution that can grant limited liability is government. It does so by sharing what is known as "Sovereign Immunity", or "the King can do no wrong."
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To "incorporate" is to gain a grant of limited liability from the State in return for govt taxes and regulations.
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That you again talk about the abuses of limited liability, where I entirely agree with you, yet reject the concept of eliminating limited liability, leaves me baffled.
@CurtHowland - because we live in a class society. Your emphasis on the individual in analysing social relations is a result of a bourgeoisie view of the world.
@CurtHowland - I am glad you have finally come out and fully exposed yourself for all to see . A far right fundamentalist with fascist sympathies. This will be the context for all to consider when reading your post. You credibility is shot.
@CurtHowland I'm all for a completely free market, where the executives of such companies would be personally liable for the decisions they make. No limited liability"
you will never get such laws when the govt has been put there by such persons.
@radoa1 "Because self regulation is what industry demands."
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No, because as agents of the State, they have limited liability for their actions while on duty.
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That's also why police are, for all intents and purposes, immune from prosecution for murder.
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There was no deregulation, the inspectors were CORRUPT AND LAZY. The regulations were never repealed, so BP isn't even paying the full clean-up costs. It's being covered by taxpayers, since BP was "regulated".
@CurtHowland - What a simpleton you are. Under HSE legislation, the Operator as the dutyholder wears the risk. All of it. It is govt that sets the framework for acceptable risk. What do yo want the Inspectors to do when the govt relaxes the risk tolerance levels???
They service the needs of the establishment. You think the police/amy would get medals for siding with the G20 protestors?
How about the fact that there was a failure. Do you deny that the disaster both happened, and was preventable?
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Government national banks are going bankrupt. How is that not a government failure? Governments cannot even regulate their own activities successfully, why do you expect regulations to succeed when used against anyone else?
@CurtHowland - nothing to do with the reckless speculation carried out by the wealthy financial elite and with governments borrowing vast sums to bail-out the banks, corporations and hedge funds now imposing an unprecedented assault on the working class in the form of cuts to public spending, wages, jobs and living conditions???????
How fascinating. You're almost completely correct.
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With one exception, "public spending" is what is an assault on working people, since every penny spent by government has to be first taken from a productive person, a "working" individual, as taxes or inflation.
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Working people are, by definition, assaulted to get the money in the first place.
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Now notice how it all boils down to government action.
@radoa1 "its telling that Obama hasnt shut down Atlantis - another BP operation even deeper."
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You've already said he's in their pocket, why do you act surprised that he acts as if he's in their pocket?
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Repeal limited liability for everyone. I keep wondering how you can wax so eloquent about the abuses of limited liability, and still think I'm a "simpleton" for rejecting limited liability.
@radoa1 "cannot solve AGW within the capitalist framework as we have conflict of interests."
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What, and there are no conflicts of interest with government action? Aren't you the one who correctly stated that government policies are written by big corporations?
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They are, and for good reasons! Campaign contributions, corruption, and central government is a perfect target of opportunity. Pay off two or three people on the right committee and force everyone to obey at taxpayer expense.
@CurtHowland - that has led to the growth of the financial speculator and the current casinio capitalism. With the Deepwater catastrophy - regulation of oil industry operations has been left in the hands of the oil industry itself, with the MMS and the government functioning as little more than an auxiliary of corporate interests. This relationship has continued unabated under Obama. The Massey Energy mining disaster is another case in point.
@CurtHowland - the pyramid analogy is a good one beacause that's exactly what its has become - one big fucking Ponzi scheme with the insatiable thirst for profit through the means of deregulation and privatisation can never be quenched.
@CurtHowland -A quote for Max sums this up quite well:
"“Clashing every moment with the bourgeois laws themselves, an unbridled assertion of unhealthy and dissolute appetites manifested itself, particularly at the top of bourgeois society—lusts wherein wealth derived from gambling naturally seeks its satisfaction, where pleasure becomes debauched, where money, filth and blood commingle.”
@radoa1 Really? Can you point out where it's been tried?
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Last I saw, government controlled fiat currencies and government central banks and government regulated financial industries have been a disaster.
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If you mean "Enron", you need to do your homework. Their entire business model depended upon trading government energy credits, and when that didn't happen their pyramid scheme collapsed.
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Really, please point out where laissez-faire has failed. Please.
Now just imagine if you dropped the money issues all together and actually used technology to provide abundance, do the right ecological thing, and help humanity advance to high standards of living across the board in an environmentally sound manner. Oh yes, it can be done, we have the capability, but we restrict ourselves by our own devices.
The Venus Project shows the solutions, if one can step outside the box they've been born in and rationalize such a new paradigm.
In a competitive market, people flourish by better serving the wants of more people. Extend competition to everything, by repealing all government granted monopolies.
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Reduce pollution by repealing all legal protections of polluters and limited liability, and let polluters be prosecuted as individuals for the decisions they make.
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That way interested individuals can solve problems for real, because they reduce waste and waste is a cost.
@CurtHowland The cost model has gone the way of the Dodo. Our technical capability is hamstrung by cost models that render advancement slow & impotent. Plus, personal purchasing power has dropped in the past 30 years, proven by the need for the majority of families to need 2 incomes in order to just live comfortably, not even extravagantly.
Advancement requires adjusting, improving or replacing our systems, even precious monetary ones we think are as infinite as deities. They aren't.
@TZMSocialEvolution "personal purchasing power has dropped in the past 30 years"
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I agree, fueled by the growth of government.
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In fact, every problem you present is caused by government taxation and regulation sapping innovation and preventing competition.
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Yes, let's start replacing those "precious monetary" systems by abolishing fiat currency. Then you get to try replacing it with whatever you think works better.
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And if your idea does work better, people will flock to it.
@CurtHowland Partly, but also the overtly greedy actions of corporations mixed with technological unemployment, shifting people to more service sector jobs, which themselves can be automated. Time to stop using 17th century systems in the 21st century. The game has changed drastically. My video Awakening on my channel showcases this with data and history.
You want to blame the government, sounds good, but it's deeper than that. In a nutshell, we don't need money anymore, at all.
@TZMSocialEvolution "Technological unemployment" is a myth, caused by government intervention in the job markets.
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People have infinite wants. As higher priority wants are met, lower priority wants become the most important. There will always be a demand for people to fill those unmet wants.
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"we don't need money anymore, at all."
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You would do well to read "Economic calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth". The "we don't need money" thing has been tried, and failed murderously.
Any "we don't need money" thing conceived in the past is irrelevant & was wrong. They still depended on human labor. They had no means for abundant production via automated technology. That only started 30 years ago & only because robust 15 years ago.
Any "old world" association you try to make is irrelevant, because technology is fundamentally different now and has completely transformed our capabilities for global abundance, which was never before possible.
If you want to assert something, it's up to you to support it. How about all those unemployed buggy-whip makers and coopers? Funny, I don't see them around anywhere, yet you assert they exist.
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"Any "we don't need money" thing conceived in the past is irrelevant & was wrong."
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So socialism is going to work "this time", or if the "right people" do it? I'll pretend I haven't seen that many times in the past.
@CurtHowland I told you, I made a 30 minute video on the subject. My proof is there.
Your historical reference is true, those people shifted to different jobs, because other jobs were available. Now we can automate, with much greater efficiency, well over 75% of every job in existence. Where to go now?
Who said anything abut Socialism? You're jumping to conclusions & projecting your thoughts on this conversation. Nice try, but I never once said Socialism.
And the Mises institute and Stefan Molineux have done lots of videos contradicting you.
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"Nice try, but I never once said Socialism."
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Then what I said several posts above stands: So long as you eschew coercion, just do what you're going to do and if it works people will flock to your cause.
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However, your rhetoric is the same as those who would force others to live their way, and I do not abide coercion.
@CurtHowland I'd like to see those videos. I'm always up for analyzing new information.
We will do what we're going to do, through tested means & using scientific processes, proving our theories in the same way science proves & tests its theories.
One cannot honestly argue against proven cases & we'll make one. Right now, it's about conversations based on fact & data, not baseless assumptions & accusations, which you seem prone too right now. I don't have time for that.
@TZMSocialEvolution "I'd like to see those videos." . Youtube/user/misesmedia . /user/stefbot . Enjoy. . "not baseless assumptions & accusations" . You've made a extraordinary claim, that you have a plan where people can give up economic calculation in the allocation of scarce resources. . This claim has been made before, always imposed by force and always with disastrous results. . To me, your extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof, not just your assertion.
@CurtHowland You're still assuming resources are scarce. I'm saying they don't have to be, that we falsely keep things scarce just to maintain an artificial market value. We have the technology to abundantly produce high quality goods/services for the world & actually reduce overall resource waste & misuse, but we don't.
My claim is not extraordinary, it's based on current technical capability, computers, robotics, automation, clean energy, etc. Proof of that tech is everywhere & easily found.
By definition, an "economic resource" is scarce. Something that is not scarce, like air or ideas, is not an "economic" good.
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I agree that eliminating scarcity eliminates any need for economics. But you have yet to prove that scarcity has been eliminated. Star Trek replicators?
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Even if all material scarcity is solved, there is still the scarcity of ideas.
@CurtHowland Then we can eliminate all economic goods, if that's how you wish to think about it.
Star Trek replicators, not yet, but nano-tech is getting there. Still, you're trying to attack by insinuating this is sci-fi. Learn about modern tech before you make uninformed statements.
Scarcity of ideas comes with scarcity of education. Education is paramount, key and necessary for all. Educate the world, and ideas will flow, and progress will be made as never before.
Ah, here we find the core of your Utopian scheme. If everyone is educated your way, if only the entire world thought your way, this time Socialism will work.
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I am very glad to have reached the center of your plan to perfect human nature, you had obfuscated it with such high sounding words.
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Let me guess: Homeschooling would be illegal, only certain "correct" thinking will be taught. This is supposed to be "new"?
@CurtHowland OMG you're an idiot. lmao. You twist every statement as much as possible to validate your weak position.
I'm talking about science, engineering, physics, biology, arts, music, history, EDUCATION! Education for all to have, the honor of learning & growing.
I'm done with you. You have no argument, you twist everything you can & put words in my mouth that I don't say, all in an effort to discredit that which you cannot honorably counter. You get the last word...for what it's worth.
Sadly, you are not entertaining. Your ignorance, your blind repetition of failed schemes to perfect humanity, all tell me that you'll gladly roll out the guillotines when people don't agree with you, just like your predecessors did.
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"You have no argument"
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It's called "first principles". Since you do not share basic precepts, nothing I've said makes any sense to you. So you claim I've said nothing.
@CurtHowland I can't let you end this by insinuating I advocate killing people. That's stupid. I don't.
Show me where I'm ignorant. You've yet to disprove ANY of my assertions, especially the fact that we have the technical capability to provide abundance for the entire world to live high quality of lives. Challenge that.
Nothing is perfect, but we can do much better given our advancement. Your 1st principles are old, outdated, and inadequate. Welcome to the 21st Century. Try and keep up.
I've already tried to point out your economic ignorance, you deleted my comment. That you cannot stand contradiction says a great deal about your confidence in your grand new plan to remake humanity.
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And that is why I will say flat out that your plan will, as it has always done before, lead to death and deprivation of anyone who doesn't think the way you want them to.
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It's easy to deny history, you are very good at it. So here we go again.
@CurtHowland I've not deleted anything, thanks for lying. Your post on my wall is still there. It's on page 2 now b/c of the posts made thereafter, but it's there.
It's all good. You refuse to see the writing on the wall. So did every group in power who suddenly lost it because of social evolution via technological evolution.
Anyone who sees this conversation should notice 1 key thing: You've yet to counter my statements and simply reverted to assumptions and attacks against me.
@TZMSocialEvolution Not lying, good sir. I posted 5 times to your page, of which there are three now. Two of which was there upon reloading, and vanished after.
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If you say you didn't, I believe you. Interesting how YouTube has these glitches.
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"You've yet to counter my statements and simply reverted to assumptions and attacks against me."
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For someone who has "no time" and "is done", you sure type a lot.
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Look, I know you like socialism. It is a pretty fairy tale. But please, read a book.
@CurtHowland Still avoiding my points and still throwing out accusations.
Not sure how much more clear I can be: I hate Socialism, Communism, ALL old world 'isms' , b/c they don't properly address technical advancement, the Earths resources and efficiency for all of mankind. Period.
So let's try this, point by point: Did you know we have the technical capability & resources to feed the world using sustainable automated solar/wind powered vertical farms? Abundant food for the whole planet.
@TZMSocialEvolution "I hate Socialism, Communism, ALL old world 'isms'" . What you are pushing is nothing other than pure Communism. . Just because you think it will work if only you are in charge doesn't change that fact. . "Abundant food for the whole planet." . Yes, I do know that, and the only reason it exists is because of what little free market exists. . If you try to replace that market with central planning, it will fail no matter what tech you think will make it work "this time".
@CurtHowland Who said central planning? I see no matter how much I explain the differences, U still just want to make things up.
Oh, and before you insult my intelligence again by insinuating I don't read books, even though I'm a Systems Engineer w/ the space program, it's BECAUSE I read books that I advocate a new system.
Your system had its time, and failed humanity. If you think it's great, then you're ignoring the suffering of the world that is caused by it and are a selfish bastard.
You assert, over and over, "we" can do this and "we" must do that, you have never defined who "we" is or how anyone else is going to be persuaded to do things your way.
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If not central planning, then what? And if not centrally planned and coerced, then I don't see any reason you don't just go ahead and do it.
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Sure, your a "systems engineer". I worked at NASA too. Bloated, inefficient bureaucracy. What you are NOT is any kind of economist.
@CurtHowland I don't want to be an economist. They are the ones mucking up the human race. When I say we, I mean humanity. Learn about what the Venus Project is before you make false assumptions. I can't explain it all in Youtube posts. Our issues are technical in nature, so we need technical solutions, not economic ones driven by archaic dogma. Every time I challenge you, you return with an insult, insinuation or accusation. In time, we'll see who's right. Now I am done, take care.
@TZMSocialEvolution You say you don't want to be an economist, yet you are making profound economic declarations. Which is it going to be?
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Political problems cannot be solved with technical answers, any more than technical problems are be solved by political answers.
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If you feel insulted by having your grand pronouncements questioned, maybe your theoretical foundation isn't as strong as you would like to think it is.
@Candyliz2003 Stop spreading fear. None of that will happen.
acealex123 1 week ago
Bjorn has an economist/environmentalist approach to saving the world from global warming. We need change now, no doubt about it! However, we only have money to invest in saving the world ONCE. Bjorn gathers the worlds greatest economist and tries to answer those questions; where should we REALLY invest our worlds money and get the best bang for our buck. It's certainly a more realistic method of trying to fix our world's problems besides SCARING everybody into trying to contribute.
hectoraymer21 1 month ago
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asgerms 2 months ago
Sorry but I'm skeptical of Lomborg... he says it's not the end of the world, that may be true, but global population is expected to rise to something like 9 billion or more by 2050... with this many people I think there will be far less room for disaster, in that an unusually strong storm that floods croplands could have potentially disastrous effects for a large group of people dependent on said croplands... this is the kind of stuff that worries me
mographzach 4 months ago
I have a friend who`s doing a report on this video. Lomberg and Gore need to meet and come to an agreement. Seems Lomberg is reasonable on this subject. Now lets get the job done!
VanWADebbie 11 months ago
@VanWADebbie That would be nice but Lomborg desires to to the most good with the resources we have and Al Gore is involved in a scam - carbon credit training. Putting these two together is like putting a priest, an honest one, and a gangster together.
LetzBeaFranque 9 months ago
Logical. Too bad the issue is too political for logic to be a factor.
HarpoSpoke 11 months ago
@HarpoSpoke While I would agree, I am not so pessimistic that I lose my will to act in spite of circumstances. And I'd encourage that nobody else does either.
HamsterPants522 5 months ago
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yukiasakura721 1 year ago
One cannot start with: Global warming is real and it is man made. Because, this is the main question that's need to be discussed.
Ruwentos 1 year ago
The trouble with the label "Global Warming" is that we won't just be seeing heat increases - we will be seeing more extremes in weather phenomenon. His claim that there will be fewer "cold deaths" is wrong because climate change will bring terrible winters (Florida's freezes over the past decade; east coast snows) as well as heat waves.
Precipitation amounts will change as well: Russia is in famine due to drought while the US Midwest is dealing with record rain amounts (15" in 30 hrs!),
Candyliz2003 1 year ago
It's to sad that he is thinking with his wallet. Growth is finite; it's a fact! And all he talks about is how the people are going to adapt. But what about the animals? Did he even think about them, or does he see the Global Warming only as a threat to humans? And that the only answer to everything from IPCC and Al Gore is "cut carbon emissions"? Has he even read their papers, about deforestation, overfishing etc? Can we stop that, due to "stop shooting polar bears"?
GoSiv1 1 year ago
@GoSiv1 He has read those papers, I would imagine.
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se I hope so. Otherwise, he has nothing to say.
GoSiv1 1 year ago
If you search for
The Lomborg Deception ABC Science Show
you will find an important rational calm radio interview given by Howard Friel, author of 'The Lonborg Deception' - it's important you listen to this too.
You will also find the usual knee jerk counter attack
carboncoach 1 year ago
@carboncoach As usual they are just envious of Lomborg. I don't think he has that many falts. He is only one person, come on.
tejo29se 1 year ago
Popsci has recenly listed Lomborg as one of the top 6 Quiet Climate Villains.
Attrocious that a misguided RSA give their name to this dangerous rhetoric.
carboncoach 1 year ago
@carboncoach Dangerous? Al Gore is the dangerous among one.
tejo29se 1 year ago
search rsablogs dangerous rhetoric for the bigure picture ...
carboncoach 1 year ago
for the bigure picture - there is also a podcast of question time afterwards - if you are interested in reality that is rather than a rhetoritians glossy self-publicity...
carboncoach 1 year ago
if what this guy is saying is true and we do nothing which it sounds like he is suggesting...humans are ef'd come 1000 years lol
ESTAndrew 1 year ago
@ESTAndrew -this guy is a climate warming denier because he states without evidence that the effect of global warming will not that be bad (which is the same narrative of his "THE SKEPTICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST" 'book" and is explicitly apposed to cutting CO2 emission but rather go down the geo-engineering path. Big Oil love this guy.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 He has all the evidence he needs.
tejo29se 1 year ago
@ESTAndrew He hoesn't say that we should do nothing. He says we are priorityzing in the wrong field. We should tackle desease, malnutrition, hunger and so on. Is that doing nothing?
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se well it fixes malnutrition and all these disease but...its not stopping the water rising
Is he saying we should adapt to the changes? cause I dont see how getting old ppl air conditioning is stopping the water from rising maybe im missing something here
ESTAndrew 1 year ago
@ESTAndrew In his book Cool It he says ice replaces itself. Its common sense when you think about it. When you fill a glass with ice and let it melt it does not rise once its melted, its actually very logical. Sometimes we just need someone to put it into perspective. Therefor we need someone like Bjørn Lomborg.
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se yes he does - do nothing now about AGW. A recipe for disaster.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 No he doesn't
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se ???? Then what action/s is he advocating to address AGW now?
radoa1 1 year ago
@tejo29se - what;s the matter Telo??? Cant back it up???
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 I already said what he would like us to do. Read his books.
tejo29se 1 year ago
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@tejo29se - no my question to you was in the context of -" yes he does - do nothing now about AGW. A recipe for disaster" and
"Then what action/s is he advocating to address AGW now?"
you havent answered this
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 get out of my way -
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se -WTF????????
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Then tell me why you think Lomborgs way is a recipe for disaster. The way I see it ---- its Gore and others that create disaster.
tejo29se 1 year ago
@radoa1 I do not know what he wants us to do to address AGW. I know he wants us to treat malnutrition and so on instead of focussing on AGW alone. But then another problem occurs. He says we cant do everything. I think I just cannot explain it. And don't tell me I told you so. I cannot explain it.
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se -you dont make sense - one minute you defend him and the next you admit that you dont know what he proposes to do about climate change now. I wonder why he doesnt apply his "cant do everything approach" to imperialist wars???
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 I*ll back him up all the way.
tejo29se 1 year ago
@tejo29se I me try and understand you. You will back him all the way yet you dont know what he wants to do to address AGW. IIt clear to me now.. Tejo - you are a first class dropkick.
radoa1 1 year ago
@tejo29se - well Tejo??? What have you got for me??
radoa1 1 year ago
I think Mr. Lomborg grossly understates the damage to global wealth that AlGore's massive increase in government intervention would cause.
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He talks of a smaller increase in wealth, but what isn't being said is the results of the upcoming global economic collapse caused by hyperinflation, a marked and prolonged DECREASE in wealth.
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Want to see pollution? See what happens when people have to go low-tech to survive!
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland
I agree that the micro-fixes you suggest would have some minor positive benefits.
However, it's clear that you "can't see the forest for the trees". Try taking a step back and widening your perspectives to some new information sources. Then you may begin to see what TZMSocialEvolution and I are talking about.
andyl1988 1 year ago
@andyl1988 "Try taking a step back and widening your perspectives to some new information sources."
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That's how I came to realize that robbing people does not increase prosperity.
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The worse polluters on the planet are governments. This economic downturn was caused by governments. Governments kill more people than any other factor save old age.
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What forest, pray tell, am I missing?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@andyl1988 "I agree that the micro-fixes you suggest would have some minor positive benefits."
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What "micro-fixes" do you thing I suggested?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
This guy is hilarious around the 24+ minute mark. He gets into talking about how the Maldives needs to be really rich in the future to prevent the negative aspects of global warming... What does he think they're gonna do? Build defenses out of cash?
He clearly has no grasp that it's resources and human ingenuity that can help us survive - not a massive global GDP!
I bet he's very popular amongst the wealthy of the planet though, bankers and congress etc. must love him.
andyl1988 1 year ago
@andyl1988
26min 35: "Basically, if you're rich, you don't get malaria, and even if you get malaria, you don't die from it".
I had no idea money was medicinal! Next time I visit Africa I'll be sure to take wads of cash with me to fight off those pesky diseeases!
Ahhh this is getting so annoying! Money has truly blinded this guy to the real solutions to problems in this world.
andyl1988 1 year ago
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@andyl1988 "Money has truly blinded this guy to the real solutions to problems in this world. "
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Sorry, but it's true. Wealthy people use that wealth to live healthier, longer lives.
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So if you want to "save the world", then promote free market capitalism everywhere. Their birth rates will also drop, as has happened in every wealthy country.
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Save the world: Eliminate government.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland -how silly of you to promote laissez-faire capitalism in light of its effects and consequences when applied within the financial and energy sector.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Really? Can you point out where it's been tried?
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Last I saw, government controlled fiat currencies and government central banks and government regulated financial industries have been a disaster.
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If you mean "Enron", you need to do your homework. Their entire business model depended upon trading government energy credits, and when that didn't happen their pyramid scheme collapsed.
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Really, please point out where laissez-faire has failed. Please.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland- ahh American Capitalism. What do they call it "creative accounting????" Enron, AIG, Parmalat, CMS Energy, Adelphia, AOL, Britol-Myers Squibb, Duke Energy, Dynegy, El Paso Corporation, Global Crossing, Halliburton, Harken Energy, HealthSouth, Lucent Technologies, Merck, Merrill Lynch, Mirant, Peregrine Systems, Qwest Communications, Reliant Energy, Sunbeam, Tyco, Waste Management, WorldCom, Xerox and Daewoo are all part of the deregulated market story
cont
radoa1 1 year ago
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@radoa1 "are all part of the deregulated market story"
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I'm actually impressed. You've conflated merchantilism, inflation-driven malinvestment and perfectly fine companies into one big group you get to hate.
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Considering that the various governments have done nothing but grow, regulating and taxing ever more, I'm left to wonder just what it is you define as "deregulation"?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - is seems pretty systematic to me. You're seriously denying a lack of govt intervention and regulatory oversight in these sectors over the course of the last 30 years?? Are you familiar with the history of capitalism??
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "You're seriously denying a lack of govt intervention and regulatory oversight in these sectors..."
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Yes. I am denying that there is any lack of government intervention and regulation. In fact, every failure you cite is directly and specifically caused by government regulation and intervention.
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"Are you familiar with the history of capitalism??"
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Yes. You owe it to yourself to read "The Anti-Capitalist Mentality".
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mises o rg/etexts/mises/anticap asp
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - I dont subscribe to your Ayn Rand world. Can you apply it to real world events? What regulations and govt interventions do you claim to have caused past failures and today's failures? .
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "I dont subscribe to your Ayn Rand world."
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Neither do I. She was wrong about a great deal, especially her rabid support of draconian copyright restrictions.
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"Can you apply it to real world events?"
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Yes. Go read the daily articles on Mises dot org and see a constant application of Austrian economics to real world events.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
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@CurtHowland "Go read the daily articles on Mises dot org and see a constant application of Austrian economics to real world events"
No you are not going to get away with that easy. Can you explain the nature of these failures through mercantilism???
And I ask you again "What regulations and govt interventions do you claim to have caused past failures and today's failures?"
Can you give me a couple of examples?
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "Can you explain the nature of these failures through mercantilism?"
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Yes.
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"Can you give me a couple of examples?"
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How about the present economic collapse? In 1996, Greenspan lowered interest rates to get Clinton re-elected. This caused the dot com boom/bust, when interest rates were lowered more. This caused the housing boom and mal-investment splurge, which has led to this, even bigger, bust.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
Respond to this video...
Greenspan reduced interest rates three times in the space of several weeks. This was a signal that the Fed would do everything in its power to prevent the stock market bubble from bursting and thereby underwrite the fortunes of Wall Street speculators. What you have described is the essence of capitalism
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 No, good sir, what you have described is "state capitalism" or "merchantilism".
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That's the problem with the word "capitalism", it's been used by people to describe everything from actual free market to Fascism, to the point it's practically meaningless.
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The fascistic institution of the Federal Reserve is abominable, I agree, but let's call it what it really is: The 5th Plank of Marx's Communist Manifesto.
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Nothing to do with a free market, in fact it's the opposite.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - oh to the contrary - it fits in really well. May i quote Chomsky - "the free market does not apply to the elites but it does for the rest of us"
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Since you refuse to listen to the answer to your question, why are you asking the question?
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You already have made up your mind what "capitalism" is, even though your definition contains a great deal of Marx's Communist Manifesto. Why use the word at all?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - no its because you give an irrational explanation to real world events. You dont make sense. There isnt a better understanding of how capitalism works than through a Marxist Analysis. We see time and again the govt will intervene for the interest of the ruling class. Imperialism and fascism are expression of capitalism in crisis. The Wall street bail out was the ultimate example of theft from the masses.
radoa1 1 year ago
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@radoa1 "Imperialism and fascism are expression of capitalism in crisis. The Wall street bail out was the ultimate example of theft from the masses."
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What you don't seem to understand is that I agree with you. What you don't get is that government intervention violates private property, the basis of a free market.
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The abuses you identify are not caused by de-regulation, free markets, private property, or even profit. They are all government interventions. Socialism!
CurtHowland 1 year ago 2
@radoa1 Another example: Pollution. When the "smokestack" industries began, people were suing them for pollution as trespassing. Makes sense.
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Government stepped in and made such suits illegal, because it "retarded industry". So polluters have been explicitly protected and govt granted limited liability stops the executives who decide to pollute from being prosecuted for those decisions.
CurtHowland 1 year ago 2
@CurtHowland - so - how is does this "observation" led you to conclude that our economic system is mercantile in nature??
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Do you understand what "merchantilist" means?
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It's government regulation to favor certain industries or firms or individuals over others by law.
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For example, a business license is a merchantilist artifact, a restriction upon others competing with established providers.
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Incorporation itself is a merchantilist institution, originally given as monopoly grants to specific politically favored firms. The "East India Company" for example.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - who owns the means of production, distribution and exchange in your mercantile economy??
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Ask the bureaucrats to whom I buy license plates, pay property taxes, pay business taxes, license professionals, etc.
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And who, if I choose to simply do nothing, will take everything I have for "back taxes" at rates they set and change at will.
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The sheen of private property which still exists is why people are as productive as they are. When that last veneer is removed, what economy is left collapses.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - that doest cut it. The last 30 years has seen a open and aggressive class war waged by the Bourgeoisie built on a program of privatisation, deregulation, tax breaks, tax havens, subsidies, bailouts and imperialism using US tools such as the IMF, World Bank and WTO. We see the the outcomes with the concentration of wealth, the growing divide b/w the have and have nots, and the shrinking of the petite bourgeoisie - monopoly capitalism.
cont
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Yes, you've already said you think there has been massive de-regulation.
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You're wrong, but you're convinced. So nothing I say is going to make any difference.
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I do wish you would take some time and look around at how regulations have only increased. You're embarrassing yourself.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland
"You're wrong, but you're convinced. So nothing I say is going to make any difference"
You have not given me one example to prove an increase in regulation over the last 30 years and how they have contributed to economic crisis.
So I will give you one to demonstrate where govt has acted to deregulate the financial market.
The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act by the Clinton administration in 1999. - a milestone in the deregulation of the banks.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Since you so very conveniently give the Glass-Steagall act example, can you at least bother to read one article where your specific example is given the treatment it deserves?
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tinyurl c om/37bpr3c
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/watch?v=eAsf5Os71MU
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/watch?v=IgEORtCYvj8
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - video's?? I ask you for regs and govt intervenation and thier relationships to current events and you give me video's. And you call others lazy?Or is their another reason? Correct me if I am wrong. Did Mises wrote of his economic methodology that "its statements and propositions are not derived from experience... They are not subject to verification or falsification on the ground of experience and facts."???????
cont
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "I ask you for regs and govt intervenation and thier relationships to current events and you give me video's."
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The TinyURL is a a text interview, followed by two videos.
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I had thought specifically providing the references you wanted was something you wanted. If you don't want it, don't ask for it.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - you cant give me any examples, because you have none. Hopeless
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 How, do tell me, is pointing to examples some how not giving you examples?
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You do realize that ignoring what people shove at your face is impolite?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - so far you have nothing of substance to say. What is there to ignore?
radoa1 1 year ago
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@radoa1 "What is there to ignore? "
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Very good point. Why are you bothering?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
Respond to this video...
to show that anyone reading this that your logic is flawed and gives nothing to addressing AGW.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "and gives nothing to addressing AGW."
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Why should I address something I don't believe exists?
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However, Mr. Lomborg addresses the issues involved quite well enough without my trying to best him.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland -Reject empirical evidence???
You waste my time with your spin that 's based on an interpretation of the world that cannot be tested or verified?? Your so called Austrian "School" has no theoretical credibility of its own and it shows in your analytical skills of social relations. In science or for any empirical study in our modern era, any untestable theory is basically mysticism.
Please!!!!!
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "In science or for any empirical study in our modern era, any untestable theory is basically mysticism."
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Austrian theories are tested every day, and come out correct. Just like the theory of gravity.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
Respond to this video...Austrian school does not produce any theories because it doesnt believe in empirical evidence. and is thus hopelessly unscientific. All you seem have is faith. Not a credible base for economic analysis and forcasting.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "does not produce any theories"
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So you haven't even bothered to look, while preaching on a subject about which you know nothing.
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I take back what I said about your being "self taught" if this represents the results of such learning.
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Austrian economic analysis are available in short videos as well, if your attention span requires it. Just look for "Peter Schiff Was Right".
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - you want me to believe in your religion and accept you view of the world based on faith?? Nope.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Can you tell me how giving you evidence and asking you to examine the historical record and primary sources is "faith"?
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I have no interest in "converting" you, merely that you stop making false assertions.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - because your definition of evidence equates to those that claim the existence of the supernatural.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Would you care to quote that? If I said such an absurd thing, I would like to see it.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - come on then give me your definition. Prove me wrong.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 If you are interested in actually learning about the Austrian tradition of economics, the Mises institute posted a "Primer on Austrian Economics" on Friday that may help.
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mises dot org/daily/4390
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"Economics is the science that studies these individual agents of the market and how they coordinate through the price mechanism to create, not just what the mainstream considers "the market," but society as a whole, all without the necessity of a central planner or authority."
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland -Lets face it Curt - the Chicago boys are exposed for what they are. A disgrace. Neo-liberialism is dead.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Not "Chicago". Austrian.
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I agree, Chicago school economics is a waste of time. Friedman was an excellent speaker, but he never went far enough with his own logic. I think he was afraid.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - not right wing enough for you?? A fascist is revealed.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Let's see.
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"Left" refers to the left side of the French Parlament, those opposed to the entrenched govt elite. Austrian economics is classical liberal, "left", not right.
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Also, Fascism is "socialism light", private titular ownership of the means of production, but only under tight govt regulation.
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I oppose govt regulation, so I cannot be a Fascist.
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Have you considered actually reading economics, so you don't argue from ignorance?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - Regulation??? Ignorant??? My goodness - you never stop with your unscientific interpretation. Are you aware of Trotsky's "Fascism - what it is and how to fight it" written at its height rather than a postmodernist view?? No?? How did I guess. You would be quite comfortable in a fascist state. After all, wasnt Mises part of a fascist state government??
radoa1 1 year ago
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - I see was the economic advisor to Engelbert Dollfuss. You getting beyond a joke now
radoa1 1 year ago
@CurtHowland Corporation dictate govt policy - not the other way around. From the financial sector, to energy, to transportation to manufacturing for the benefits of their shareholders, regardless of the environmental, human and social costs. Did you hear today - BP have announced that they will be paying their shareholders a dividend in light of the worst enviro disaster in US history.
I say bring on the free market. Let have it for all for this would be capitalism death roll.
radoa1 1 year ago
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@radoa1 "say bring on the free market. Let have it for all for this would be capitalism death roll."
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Think about this: Your complaint is that some big company has its liability limited by government, and you blame the company?
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Yes indeed, I'm all for a completely free market, where the executives of such companies would be personally liable for the decisions they make. No limited liability.
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And why aren't the government inspectors, who stopped inspecting, being prosecuted too?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - you really digging yourself into a bigger hole
"Think about this: Your complaint is that some big company has its liability limited by government, and you blame the company?
Re-read the post. Real power is held in the corporate board rooms. They determine govt policy. You think the corporation wants unlimited liability?? Who ignorant now?
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "Who ignorant now?"
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Let's see. I oppose the limited liability of government because it is abused. You oppose corporate control of the limited liability of government because they abuse it.
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It seems to me that you're only arguing with yourself.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - the limited liability is on the corporation- you moron!!! BP's is capped at $75 million!!!
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "you moron!!!"
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Good sir, the only institution that can grant limited liability is government. It does so by sharing what is known as "Sovereign Immunity", or "the King can do no wrong."
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To "incorporate" is to gain a grant of limited liability from the State in return for govt taxes and regulations.
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That you again talk about the abuses of limited liability, where I entirely agree with you, yet reject the concept of eliminating limited liability, leaves me baffled.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - because we live in a class society. Your emphasis on the individual in analysing social relations is a result of a bourgeoisie view of the world.
That's your problem - not mine
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "because we live in a class society."
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Exactly. There are the productive, and the parasitic. The productive, like me, create wealth. The parasitic exist on taxes.
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See? Again we agree. Why do you reject abolishing the parasitic class?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - I am glad you have finally come out and fully exposed yourself for all to see . A far right fundamentalist with fascist sympathies. This will be the context for all to consider when reading your post. You credibility is shot.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Good sir, Fascism is a form of Socialism, which is state control and regulation.
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Since I oppose state control and regulation, I cannot have "fascistic sympathies".
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You have demonstrated nothing but an inability to read.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - struggler - see earlier posting on this. So now we have established you are a fascist and a liar.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Fascinating.
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"So now we have established you are a fascist and a liar. "
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I cannot be a Fascist, by definition. Much more accurate would be "Anarchist" or "Agorist".
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As for lying, you are welcome to demonstrate how anything I've said was a lie.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - you didnt read it did you. This is not a response to what I put to you.
radoa1 1 year ago
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@CurtHowland I'm all for a completely free market, where the executives of such companies would be personally liable for the decisions they make. No limited liability"
you will never get such laws when the govt has been put there by such persons.
radoa1 1 year ago
@CurtHowland -
"And why aren't the government inspectors, who stopped inspecting, being prosecuted too?"
Because self regulation is what industry demands. You have just contradicted yourself by demonstrating de-regulation at work.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "Because self regulation is what industry demands."
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No, because as agents of the State, they have limited liability for their actions while on duty.
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That's also why police are, for all intents and purposes, immune from prosecution for murder.
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There was no deregulation, the inspectors were CORRUPT AND LAZY. The regulations were never repealed, so BP isn't even paying the full clean-up costs. It's being covered by taxpayers, since BP was "regulated".
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Limited Liability.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - What a simpleton you are. Under HSE legislation, the Operator as the dutyholder wears the risk. All of it. It is govt that sets the framework for acceptable risk. What do yo want the Inspectors to do when the govt relaxes the risk tolerance levels???
They service the needs of the establishment. You think the police/amy would get medals for siding with the G20 protestors?
cont
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "All of it."
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Then why, oh great sage, is BP not paying for all the clean-up?
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"What do yo want the Inspectors to do when the govt relaxes the risk tolerance levels?"
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Again you cite the failure of government regulation, yet you call me a "simpleton" for opposing government regulation because it fails.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - you raised the Inspectors. I ask you again - "what did you expect the Inspectors to do?"
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "what did you expect the Inspectors to do?"
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Me? I expected them to fail, and they did. This was based upon thousands of years of failure of government regulation.
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That YOU presented the idea that regulations were relaxed only reaffirms my faith in the failure of government regulation.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - "Me? I expected them to fail, and they did. This was based upon thousands of years of failure of government regulation"
what you have evidence??? Dont tell me - its true because you say it is. As alchemy is to chemistry so is austrianism to economics.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "what you have evidence???"
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How about the fact that there was a failure. Do you deny that the disaster both happened, and was preventable?
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Government national banks are going bankrupt. How is that not a government failure? Governments cannot even regulate their own activities successfully, why do you expect regulations to succeed when used against anyone else?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - nothing to do with the reckless speculation carried out by the wealthy financial elite and with governments borrowing vast sums to bail-out the banks, corporations and hedge funds now imposing an unprecedented assault on the working class in the form of cuts to public spending, wages, jobs and living conditions???????
You really are an amateur.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "Nothing to do with..."
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How fascinating. You're almost completely correct.
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With one exception, "public spending" is what is an assault on working people, since every penny spent by government has to be first taken from a productive person, a "working" individual, as taxes or inflation.
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Working people are, by definition, assaulted to get the money in the first place.
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Now notice how it all boils down to government action.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - go on. Govt action because............
radoa1 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - Deepwater casein point -evidence to this effect - something that
you never do, is
-retesting of BOP at 6,500 psi rather than the required 10,000
-use of toxic dispersant banned in Norway and UK
-bypassing the requirement for undertaking an EIA for project approval
-allowing an inferior well casing to be used because it was CHEAPER
its telling that Obama hasnt shut down Atlantis - another BP operation even deeper.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 "its telling that Obama hasnt shut down Atlantis - another BP operation even deeper."
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You've already said he's in their pocket, why do you act surprised that he acts as if he's in their pocket?
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Repeal limited liability for everyone. I keep wondering how you can wax so eloquent about the abuses of limited liability, and still think I'm a "simpleton" for rejecting limited liability.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - cannot solve AGW within the capitalist framework as we have conflict of interests.
radoa1 1 year ago
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@radoa1 "cannot solve AGW within the capitalist framework as we have conflict of interests."
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What, and there are no conflicts of interest with government action? Aren't you the one who correctly stated that government policies are written by big corporations?
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They are, and for good reasons! Campaign contributions, corruption, and central government is a perfect target of opportunity. Pay off two or three people on the right committee and force everyone to obey at taxpayer expense.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@radoa1 You might find this interview interesting, it addresses many of the issues you raise:
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tiny url com/37bpr3c
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Sorry for the obfuscation, I hope the URL is not too difficult. I'll put the whole link on your page.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - that has led to the growth of the financial speculator and the current casinio capitalism. With the Deepwater catastrophy - regulation of oil industry operations has been left in the hands of the oil industry itself, with the MMS and the government functioning as little more than an auxiliary of corporate interests. This relationship has continued unabated under Obama. The Massey Energy mining disaster is another case in point.
cont
radoa1 1 year ago
@CurtHowland - the pyramid analogy is a good one beacause that's exactly what its has become - one big fucking Ponzi scheme with the insatiable thirst for profit through the means of deregulation and privatisation can never be quenched.
cont
radoa1 1 year ago
@CurtHowland -A quote for Max sums this up quite well:
"“Clashing every moment with the bourgeois laws themselves, an unbridled assertion of unhealthy and dissolute appetites manifested itself, particularly at the top of bourgeois society—lusts wherein wealth derived from gambling naturally seeks its satisfaction, where pleasure becomes debauched, where money, filth and blood commingle.”
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Really? Can you point out where it's been tried?
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Last I saw, government controlled fiat currencies and government central banks and government regulated financial industries have been a disaster.
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If you mean "Enron", you need to do your homework. Their entire business model depended upon trading government energy credits, and when that didn't happen their pyramid scheme collapsed.
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Really, please point out where laissez-faire has failed. Please.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
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@andyl1988 "I bet he's very popular amongst the wealthy of the planet though, bankers and congress etc. must love him."
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Nope. The power elite hate him, because he's poking holes in their plan of control over the masses of people.
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Or do you really think Algore is somehow an every-man, the little guy fighting the good fight?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
this guy is a pure unadulterated capitalist. Shit for brains.
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Silly, you need to look up who Bjorn Lomborg is before you go accusing him with words you don't understand.
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I'm an unadulterated capitalist, he isn't.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland No- not silly. Its clear where his allegiances are
radoa1 1 year ago
@radoa1 Do you understand the difference between merchantilism and a free market? (both of which are labeled as "capitalism" by ignorant people)
CurtHowland 1 year ago
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@CurtHowland No- not silly. Its clear where his allegiances are.
radoa1 1 year ago
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@CurtHowland -No- not silly. Its clear where his allegiances are
radoa1 1 year ago
Now just imagine if you dropped the money issues all together and actually used technology to provide abundance, do the right ecological thing, and help humanity advance to high standards of living across the board in an environmentally sound manner. Oh yes, it can be done, we have the capability, but we restrict ourselves by our own devices.
The Venus Project shows the solutions, if one can step outside the box they've been born in and rationalize such a new paradigm.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago 2
@TZMSocialEvolution Yes, it can be done, and it is.
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In a competitive market, people flourish by better serving the wants of more people. Extend competition to everything, by repealing all government granted monopolies.
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Reduce pollution by repealing all legal protections of polluters and limited liability, and let polluters be prosecuted as individuals for the decisions they make.
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That way interested individuals can solve problems for real, because they reduce waste and waste is a cost.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland The cost model has gone the way of the Dodo. Our technical capability is hamstrung by cost models that render advancement slow & impotent. Plus, personal purchasing power has dropped in the past 30 years, proven by the need for the majority of families to need 2 incomes in order to just live comfortably, not even extravagantly.
Advancement requires adjusting, improving or replacing our systems, even precious monetary ones we think are as infinite as deities. They aren't.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "personal purchasing power has dropped in the past 30 years"
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I agree, fueled by the growth of government.
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In fact, every problem you present is caused by government taxation and regulation sapping innovation and preventing competition.
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Yes, let's start replacing those "precious monetary" systems by abolishing fiat currency. Then you get to try replacing it with whatever you think works better.
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And if your idea does work better, people will flock to it.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland Partly, but also the overtly greedy actions of corporations mixed with technological unemployment, shifting people to more service sector jobs, which themselves can be automated. Time to stop using 17th century systems in the 21st century. The game has changed drastically. My video Awakening on my channel showcases this with data and history.
You want to blame the government, sounds good, but it's deeper than that. In a nutshell, we don't need money anymore, at all.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "Technological unemployment" is a myth, caused by government intervention in the job markets.
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People have infinite wants. As higher priority wants are met, lower priority wants become the most important. There will always be a demand for people to fill those unmet wants.
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"we don't need money anymore, at all."
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You would do well to read "Economic calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth". The "we don't need money" thing has been tried, and failed murderously.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland Prove it's a myth.
Any "we don't need money" thing conceived in the past is irrelevant & was wrong. They still depended on human labor. They had no means for abundant production via automated technology. That only started 30 years ago & only because robust 15 years ago.
Any "old world" association you try to make is irrelevant, because technology is fundamentally different now and has completely transformed our capabilities for global abundance, which was never before possible.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "Prove it's a myth."
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If you want to assert something, it's up to you to support it. How about all those unemployed buggy-whip makers and coopers? Funny, I don't see them around anywhere, yet you assert they exist.
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"Any "we don't need money" thing conceived in the past is irrelevant & was wrong."
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So socialism is going to work "this time", or if the "right people" do it? I'll pretend I haven't seen that many times in the past.
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Coercion doesn't work. So abolish it.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland I told you, I made a 30 minute video on the subject. My proof is there.
Your historical reference is true, those people shifted to different jobs, because other jobs were available. Now we can automate, with much greater efficiency, well over 75% of every job in existence. Where to go now?
Who said anything abut Socialism? You're jumping to conclusions & projecting your thoughts on this conversation. Nice try, but I never once said Socialism.
ALL old world 'isms' suck. Clear? :)
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "I made a 30 minute video on the subject."
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And the Mises institute and Stefan Molineux have done lots of videos contradicting you.
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"Nice try, but I never once said Socialism."
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Then what I said several posts above stands: So long as you eschew coercion, just do what you're going to do and if it works people will flock to your cause.
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However, your rhetoric is the same as those who would force others to live their way, and I do not abide coercion.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland I'd like to see those videos. I'm always up for analyzing new information.
We will do what we're going to do, through tested means & using scientific processes, proving our theories in the same way science proves & tests its theories.
One cannot honestly argue against proven cases & we'll make one. Right now, it's about conversations based on fact & data, not baseless assumptions & accusations, which you seem prone too right now. I don't have time for that.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland You're still assuming resources are scarce. I'm saying they don't have to be, that we falsely keep things scarce just to maintain an artificial market value. We have the technology to abundantly produce high quality goods/services for the world & actually reduce overall resource waste & misuse, but we don't.
My claim is not extraordinary, it's based on current technical capability, computers, robotics, automation, clean energy, etc. Proof of that tech is everywhere & easily found.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
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@TZMSocialEvolution "You're still assuming resources are scarce."
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By definition, an "economic resource" is scarce. Something that is not scarce, like air or ideas, is not an "economic" good.
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I agree that eliminating scarcity eliminates any need for economics. But you have yet to prove that scarcity has been eliminated. Star Trek replicators?
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Even if all material scarcity is solved, there is still the scarcity of ideas.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland Then we can eliminate all economic goods, if that's how you wish to think about it.
Star Trek replicators, not yet, but nano-tech is getting there. Still, you're trying to attack by insinuating this is sci-fi. Learn about modern tech before you make uninformed statements.
Scarcity of ideas comes with scarcity of education. Education is paramount, key and necessary for all. Educate the world, and ideas will flow, and progress will be made as never before.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "Scarcity of ideas comes with scarcity of education."
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Ah, here we find the core of your Utopian scheme. If everyone is educated your way, if only the entire world thought your way, this time Socialism will work.
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I am very glad to have reached the center of your plan to perfect human nature, you had obfuscated it with such high sounding words.
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Let me guess: Homeschooling would be illegal, only certain "correct" thinking will be taught. This is supposed to be "new"?
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland OMG you're an idiot. lmao. You twist every statement as much as possible to validate your weak position.
I'm talking about science, engineering, physics, biology, arts, music, history, EDUCATION! Education for all to have, the honor of learning & growing.
I'm done with you. You have no argument, you twist everything you can & put words in my mouth that I don't say, all in an effort to discredit that which you cannot honorably counter. You get the last word...for what it's worth.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "OMG you're an idiot. lmao."
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I'm glad I could be entertaining.
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Sadly, you are not entertaining. Your ignorance, your blind repetition of failed schemes to perfect humanity, all tell me that you'll gladly roll out the guillotines when people don't agree with you, just like your predecessors did.
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"You have no argument"
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It's called "first principles". Since you do not share basic precepts, nothing I've said makes any sense to you. So you claim I've said nothing.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland I can't let you end this by insinuating I advocate killing people. That's stupid. I don't.
Show me where I'm ignorant. You've yet to disprove ANY of my assertions, especially the fact that we have the technical capability to provide abundance for the entire world to live high quality of lives. Challenge that.
Nothing is perfect, but we can do much better given our advancement. Your 1st principles are old, outdated, and inadequate. Welcome to the 21st Century. Try and keep up.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "Show me where I'm ignorant."
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I've already tried to point out your economic ignorance, you deleted my comment. That you cannot stand contradiction says a great deal about your confidence in your grand new plan to remake humanity.
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And that is why I will say flat out that your plan will, as it has always done before, lead to death and deprivation of anyone who doesn't think the way you want them to.
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It's easy to deny history, you are very good at it. So here we go again.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland I've not deleted anything, thanks for lying. Your post on my wall is still there. It's on page 2 now b/c of the posts made thereafter, but it's there.
It's all good. You refuse to see the writing on the wall. So did every group in power who suddenly lost it because of social evolution via technological evolution.
Anyone who sees this conversation should notice 1 key thing: You've yet to counter my statements and simply reverted to assumptions and attacks against me.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution Not lying, good sir. I posted 5 times to your page, of which there are three now. Two of which was there upon reloading, and vanished after.
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If you say you didn't, I believe you. Interesting how YouTube has these glitches.
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"You've yet to counter my statements and simply reverted to assumptions and attacks against me."
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For someone who has "no time" and "is done", you sure type a lot.
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Look, I know you like socialism. It is a pretty fairy tale. But please, read a book.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland Still avoiding my points and still throwing out accusations.
Not sure how much more clear I can be: I hate Socialism, Communism, ALL old world 'isms' , b/c they don't properly address technical advancement, the Earths resources and efficiency for all of mankind. Period.
So let's try this, point by point: Did you know we have the technical capability & resources to feed the world using sustainable automated solar/wind powered vertical farms? Abundant food for the whole planet.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland Who said central planning? I see no matter how much I explain the differences, U still just want to make things up.
Oh, and before you insult my intelligence again by insinuating I don't read books, even though I'm a Systems Engineer w/ the space program, it's BECAUSE I read books that I advocate a new system.
Your system had its time, and failed humanity. If you think it's great, then you're ignoring the suffering of the world that is caused by it and are a selfish bastard.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution "Who said central planning?"
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You assert, over and over, "we" can do this and "we" must do that, you have never defined who "we" is or how anyone else is going to be persuaded to do things your way.
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If not central planning, then what? And if not centrally planned and coerced, then I don't see any reason you don't just go ahead and do it.
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Sure, your a "systems engineer". I worked at NASA too. Bloated, inefficient bureaucracy. What you are NOT is any kind of economist.
CurtHowland 1 year ago
@CurtHowland I don't want to be an economist. They are the ones mucking up the human race. When I say we, I mean humanity. Learn about what the Venus Project is before you make false assumptions. I can't explain it all in Youtube posts. Our issues are technical in nature, so we need technical solutions, not economic ones driven by archaic dogma. Every time I challenge you, you return with an insult, insinuation or accusation. In time, we'll see who's right. Now I am done, take care.
TZMSocialEvolution 1 year ago
@TZMSocialEvolution You say you don't want to be an economist, yet you are making profound economic declarations. Which is it going to be?
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Political problems cannot be solved with technical answers, any more than technical problems are be solved by political answers.
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If you feel insulted by having your grand pronouncements questioned, maybe your theoretical foundation isn't as strong as you would like to think it is.
CurtHowland 1 year ago