looking at the clothing the people are wearing they are from Turkey and Morocco not Israel,there never was a country called Palestine..what a hoax.And a poor one at that.
The clothes don't look like the clothes from Israel because Israel did not exist at that time. it's true that the outfits resemble other Arab clothing because the Palestinians are part of the Arab World, not to mention that Palestine was under the Ottoman rule for hundreds of years. These pictures are well documented as pictures from Palestine before 1948. (by the way, Turkey and Morocco have totally different cultures, your knowledge of the Middle East is questionable!!)
@CanaaniFilms The people with the pez hats are from Turkey the others are from Morocco ..I have friends from both countries and know exactly what the cultural clothing looks like from both areas ..looking at there home videos makes it pretty clear.
In contrast to the clip you are trying to debunk, the vast majority of photos shown here are unverifiable as being where you are implying they are from.
And sorry but considering the reputations of some for "Pallywood" videos and the like I, for one, don't really trust you.
This is like watching a video all about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Only difference is, that was big, and therefore someone took the time out to debunk that. I see here you have some 300 views, so I doubt anyone will bother correcting your misguided views.
I have talked, and i constantly talk to anybody that's willing to debate me. i did not say that Israelis believe that, because most Israelis have enough sense to look around them and see centuries of Palestinian existence, they can not deny the Palestinian existence like these Zionist fanatics do.
Zionism is based on establishing the state of Israel in Palestine with total disregard to the Palestinians and their existence.... Some people call that a bit racist if not evil!!!
Most Israelis knows that in 1880 there were roughly 200,000 Arabs and 20,000 Jews living in smaller Palestine.
Most early Zionists believed that the local population will welcome the Jews and cooperate for a mutual prosperity- some actually did but unfortunately most did not.
Most Israelis wont deny that there were Palestinian Arabs, but would state that they had no Palestinian culture, language or identity to distinct them from other Arabs.
They ask- why didn't they fight Jordan and Egypt--->
because neither Jordan nor Egypt tried to erase the Palestinian existence like Israel did, and did not expel the Palestinians and build settlements on their lands.
you can not compare the Israeli brutal occupation to the Jordanian or Egyptian control over Palestinian land.
the fact that Jordanians might have a culture or language similar to the Iraqis (for example) does not deny them the right of independence, this is a silly argument.
I find it highly unlikely that the regime that perpetrated the atrocities of black September is the same regime that allegedly treated Palestinians in a fair and gentle way before that.. but you might be right- I don't know anything about the conditions in which Palestinians lived under Jordan.
But!- i do know that between 67-87 (first intifada) the Palestinians experienced an economic boom --->
Really? Can you point to any historical reference of the "Sanjak of Palestine?"
Most Israelis would not agree to more than a token return due to the fact that a mass return would be national suicide. However, most would definitely be in favour of compensation. In fact, a compensation fund was established as far back as 1949.
it was officially called the "Sanjak of Jerusalem" which represented Palestine and the Palestinians.
i guess the issue of "national suicide" should have been thought of before they kicked the Palestinians out. and if that were true then why was the issue of refugees not allowed to be discussed in negotiations until 2000?
You provided an excuse for suicide bombings, which is tacit approval.
You misquoted me. I said, "killing Israelis is more important to the RADICAL ELEMENTS than peace or prosperity." How is this racist?
The Sanjak of Jerusalem didn't include anything in the north of Jerusalem. British Palestine included 4 or 5 Sanjaks. Anyway, my point was only that there was no entity called Palestine under the Turks.
Refugees were off the table because the issue is so contentious.
A true independent state would be a sovereign state over all of the West Bank and Gaza, with east Jerusalem as the Capitol. and total control over borders, water resources and airspace. which has to include the dismantling of the settlements, and a resolution of the refugees issue.
You should run for Palestinian Prime Minister. With people like you in charge, peace would be possible.
There would probably have to be some land-swapping to accommodate the largest settlement blocks and a phased opening of the borders to address Israeli security concerns but, fundamentally, what you want is possible.
If that is not possible, then the question is: Are the existing Palestinian government (Hamas today) also of like-minds?
The problem is that supporters of Israel are quick to dismiss the Palestinians as fanatics and irrational, and that all they want is to wipe out the Jews.
Palestinians are rarely given the chance to express what they want. they are either represented by a group of corrupt puppets like Abu Mazen or extremists like Hamas, which is just what Israel wants.
Either way Israel is not Interested in negotiating with a representative of the moderate majority, because then Israel would have no excuse.
The Palestinians voted for Hamas, which gives the impression that the Palestinians are extremist. Hamas talks about liberating Palestine from the Jordan to the sea, which gives the impression that the Palestinians want to wipe out Jews. However, I dont really believe this to be true.
The Israelis proved their sincerity when they offered peace to Arafat. They also made peace with Egypt and Jordan.
Whats needed is people like you in a leadership role instead of the corrupt or fanatic.
When The Palestinians voted for Hamas they were tired of the corruption of Fatah, and they realized that the peace process was going nowhere. Also, unfortunately, Hamas was the only other option available, not that the Palestinians agreed with Hamas, it was an act of depression, and to their credit Hamas followed up on their campaign promises to get rid of corruption.
and if you've been paying attention Hamas has not used its "Jordan to the sea" rhetoric in many years, now they talk about 67
as you probably know, in order to run for elections one needs money and support to run a campaign, so with Fatah being "supported" by Israel and the US and Hamas being supported by "other forces" (Iran), no one else in the Palestinian political arena stood a chance against these two giants. it was simply impossible for the independents to win.
like i said it's not as simple as you might think. There are bigger forces that control the scene.
Israel and the US would both be delighted to support a more capable, moderate leadership without the legacy of corruption and deceit. Much as the Palestinians voted for Hamas, the West supports Abbas only because no better alternative exists.
The cost to mount a challenge would be in the millions, not billions. Surely Palestinian expatriates could raise some seed money? It is ironic but I bet the worlds Jewish community would chip in too. Once a new face is presented, the money would gush in.
when they do send money, the pali leaders are very corrupted. 2) when they do send money to relatives they get accused of aiding terrorism. seriously what fantasy world are you living in?
It is difficult to understand what point you are trying to make, except for the part about my solution being a fantasy.
As difficult my solution might be to achieve, can you see any other way for the Palestinians to resolve their internal political issues? Is such a resolution possible under the existing leadership, Hamas or Fatah?
Again you need to look into the details of the "Peace" that was "offered" to Arafat.
for example, in a prison the inmates occupy 90% of the facility, but that does not mean that they control it. this was similar to what was offered to Arafat. (90% of the West Bank and Gaza, with Israeli highways and settlements crisscrossing the Palestinian state). no control.
It's true that Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt, but it wasn't out of the kindness of its heart, yet it's not my concern.
The offer wasn't too bad if you consider the fact that the areas initally under Israeli security control were officially going to be transfered to Palestine as the security situation stabalized.
A network of highways would benefit the Palestinians greatly so I am not sure why there would be an objection to this?
The offer was not perfect, from anyone's perspective. But here we are, almost a decade later, and what has been achieved? The deal was certainly better than the current situation.
there are many Palestinians that are neither corrupt nor fanatic, but there are forces that are bigger that me and you that control who becomes a Palestinian leader, and sadly it's not the Palestinian people.
I agree- Israel should compensate the Palestinian refugees.
But, if you want to be fair, if you want justice to be done, then the Arab states should compensate all the Jewish refugees that were forced out, denationalized and had their property confiscated.
The number of refugees is roughly the same, but the Jews were, on average, more well off. The Arab compensation will be used to compensate the Palestinians and Israel will still be left with some extra change.
I'm going to have to disagree with one thing, most Arab Jews moved to Israel on their own, not to mention that some still live in the Arab countries until today.
Also, there were terrorist attacks on Jews in these Arab countries done by other Jews to encourage them to move to Israel.
Not to mention that Israel became the new home for Jews, the Palestinian refugees still live in tents in the diaspora.
Im sorry, but you distort the facts- 1 terrorist attack was faked on the Jews of Iraq, how it had become a plural?
The numbers of Jews living in Arab countries now is so small it's ridiculous to even mention. 55,000 lived in Egypt in the 1940's, 200 live there today for example. The largest community of Jews is in Iran- 20,000 today, but Iran is not an Arab country.
Does the pogrom in Aden ring a bell? There were so many, I have no place to mention so please watch-
Im willing to acknowledge Palestinian suffering on the sake of Zionism but as long as Palestinians and Arabs in general continue to deny the suffering of Jews under Islam and instead paint a rosy, false image, there would be no true reconciliation. That's basically what Mr. Cotler says in this video.
Even the worst of times for Jews under Islam was still better than anything the Jews went in Europe. We never hated the Jews so much to put u in gas chambers. If things were so bad why do many sephardim/mirachi still long for their original countries? I'm not saying it was utopia, but honestly, if any mizrachi got the chance to go back wud they?
That's true- Jews had it worse in Europe. But it's also true that at times like the emancipation they got a much better treatment than Muslims had ever gave them as a group.
To sum it up- Europe showed the Jews the best and the worst. Islam was more consistent- always mild bad.
Sure, as individuals, Jews could rise high under Islam. But as a group they were down-trodden. Even those individuals who that rose to prominence faced a risky situation- 2 of them were murdered in Cordoba by--->
(cont)--- Muslims who didn't like the idea that Jews had a higher social stature than they.
What you say about Mizrachim is not true. I was born and I live in Israel. They do not yearn to go back- quite the contrary. They are the ones who put in power the right-wing, nationalist, hard-line Likkud party in 77'.
Statistically, they have much more racists (Arab haters) than the Ashkenazim.
You should read about Ella Shodat. When i mean 'long' for their homeland i mean they miss certain aspects of it. Many Jews were very integrated in their countries with wealth. When they went in Israel they were treated so badly in Israel they had to prove to the white masters they were not like the Arabs. Jews under Islam spaned for 1000 years or more, during Islamic Spain jews were some of the most intellectual people. It's only when power got into muslims brains they started to treat jews bad
For one Ella Shohat there are 10,000 Sephardim who are hostile to their former countries. Shohat is a radical leftist and as such harbor a sympathy for the lower classes that transcends nationalities.
She is also an avid student of Edward Said. Said was debunked thoroughly by Ibn Warreq- a Pakistani and an ex-Muslim (atheist now).
Jews were always intellectuals- even when they were excluded from the host culture.
The Andalusian paradise is a myth- pumped up for political reasons.
I've also noticed Israelis always commenting how arabs treat their own; Arabs have problems yes, but all arab governments are Israeli puppets. I cud easily say about the big Ashkenazi/Mizrachi divide in Israel ie rich and poor, white and dark. But that's Jewish business. 14 million Jews and you all are very divided; liberal, orthodox, reform, ashkenazi, mizrachi, religous, secular, now imagine us Muslims, 1.6 billion.
Every society has divisions. The thing is how much violence does this tension between the groups leads to.
Judging by what goes on today in Iraq and Yemen, where Shiites and Sunnis are slaughtering each other, I would say that the Arabs have a bigger internal social problem than the Jews.
As for the Arab regimes as Israeli puppets- you strike me as an intelligent man, not one to fall for such conspiracy propaganda BS that is so rife in the Arab world.
I've read your side of the story, and many books in Israel's defense has been debunked. If Arab governments told the palis to leave, then why are the palis fighting now? you expect a people who lived on land for 2000 years just to give it up easily. Yes, arabs have their own problems but it's not a 1-1 solution. Jews just lump the whole middle east as 'Arab', ignore the history, politics and culture of the people.
a. Palis did not inhabit the land for 2000 years and even some tiny part of them has- so what? For 3000 years there was some Jewish presence in the holy land. Up until 48' the majority in Jerusalem was Jewish.
b. Arab leaders did encourage Palis to leave- it's a fact and no-one has debunked it- cos it's a fact. However, there was an ethnic cleansing going on- on a VERY small scale. And no one said that they are not allowed to fight- even if they left of their own will--->
(cont)---> My problem is with the WAY they fight- blowing up civilians, adding nails and bolts to the bombs to increase misery, kidnapping soldiers- not treating them as war prisoners, not even allowing a red cross visit. And then go and cry about "human rights" and "war crimes". Hypocritical. Pathetic.
you have had years of utter ruthless European and Turkish rule. Did you know the French raped thousands of women in Alegria, or when the Italians ruled Tunisa the Nazis killed the Jews there? I seems strange to me you all are so ready to point fingers at Muslims how we treated the Jews when Europe has treated you all far worse.
If they're not puppets why are israeli goods allowed in the Middle East, or why do they spend all their oil money behind materialistic things rather than helping their fellow Arabs or Muslims. Or is it up to today they have done nothing for Palestinian sovereignty. Even during the gaza genocide Egypt closed its borders to gaza so no help would go in. I think i know Muslims better than u. What i was trying to point out it's easy for jews to be united cause it's jut 14 million of u and 1 country.
Mubarak closed its borders out of fear of Hamas. Hamas is an offshoot of his domestic Muslim brotherhood which is his strongest opposition.
What I'm saying is- the Arab regimes have their own agenda- mainly to survive- many times they will find an outside enemy (Israel) to channel domestic hostility outside. That's what every dictator does.
SA, Egypt- they have their own agenda, their own interests. It's laughable to think they serve Israeli masters.
@CanaaniFilms Arab Jews were expelled, they didn't move on their own. Jews feared for their lives in Arab countries. That the Palestinians live as refugees in Arab countries shows how much Arabs care about Palestinians. Arabs care more about jews because you rarely hear in the media about the atrocities committed against their own even though they are much more abundant than the atrocities from Israel to palestine & viceversa.Had Arabs cared about independence, they would have done so in 1948-67
Most Jordanians are ethnic Palestinians, not just refugees. More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan River. Jordan was carved out of Palestine in '46, only two years before Israel was created.
Refugees: many left voluntarily; expecting the war to be over in weeks. Many more fled the fighting. Some, but not all as you suggest, were driven out. The question is what can be done about this today?
I'm not sure where you get your facts, well i guess i have an idea... i am still talking about the Palestinians in Palestine, there has always been a clear distinction between Palestine and Jordan.
Back to the Refugees: there is a number of studies, many by Israelis that detailed the events of "Al-Nakba" (How Israel was established) and the issue of ethnic cleansing is inescapable.
the solution is simple: they have the right to return or to compensation.
The first time in the modern era anything was called Palestine was under the British and this included Jordan. For 400 years prior to that, the Turks had divided the whole region in to districts called Sanjaks and there was no Palestine.
I agree on the issue of return or compensation and the Israelis would too. However, this would require the Palestinians to give up on their dream of driving the Jews into the sea, which isn't likely.
again we have to disagree on that, it was called Palestine back when Salahuddin fought the crusaders, and it continued to be Palestine even under the Turks rule, a gentleman from my home town even represented the "Sanjak" of Palestine in the Ottoman empire.
Also, most Israelis do not agree to the right of return or compensation. on the other hand (and speaking as a Palestinian) the vast majority of Palestinians do not want to drive Jews into the see. all they want is a TRUE independent state.
Not really because you are operating on two false assumptions.
1)Your population ratio is for the whole of Palestine, including Jordan. In 1948, Jews represented the majority of the population in the Israeli part of the partition.
2)Israel didnt ethically cleanse 800,000 Palestinians to establish a state. Israel was created by UN resolution and over a million Palestinians live there today, so they obviously werent cleansed.
first of all, it's not including Jordan, unless there were Palestinians that were kicked out to Jordan.
i'm not sure which partition you are talking about, since all of them were rejected because they were unfair.
also, Israel declared itself as a state after taking over 80% of Palestine with help from Britain of course and not through a UN resolution. and when it comes to ethnic cleansing, you have to be quite naive to ignore all the evidence produced by Israelis on that issue
I don't think anyone would say that the region was completely empty. It was just sparsely populated. There were always communities in Acco, Jerusalem, etc.
Israel was only established on 20% of British-era Palestine.
Although there were Arabs living there, there were Jews too. The Jews only got 20%. The other 80% went to the Arabs. It doesn't seem like an 80/20split is overly favourable to the Jews.
Well, unfortunately it WAS said that Palestine was empty, one of the people that said that was Golda Meir (along with a number of Zionist writers). And the Palestinians were not just small communities here and there; it was a well established existence and culture throughout Palestine.
Im afraid that you got your numbers all mixed up; Israel was established on 80% of Palestine (even though it had absolutely no right), Palestinians were only left with the West Bank and Gaza. (Check the maps)
Its true that there were Jews in Palestine (less than 9% after WWI) and they lived in harmony with the Christians and the Muslims in Palestine. I dont see how that constitutes Israels right to ethnically cleanse 800,000 Palestinians and establish a state in their home. Do you now see the problem?
Israel was Created From Land Taken From Palestine! Or Stolen from The People Of Palestine! With so Many Palestinians Killed while there land was Confiscated And illegal Settelments even Today continue to Grow in what is left of Palestine! Boycott Israeli Goods, And Support The Palestinian People.
Yes , But it didnt stop the israelis killing innocent people and stealing more land look at the original borders ! israel has stolen lots of Palestine! and thats why the wall is up to steal land.
The expansion of the borders resulted from Israel defending itself in war. This is not stealing.
Encroachment on Palestinian land by settlements is clearly stealing in cases when the land is actually owned by Palestinians. This is indefensible and totally wrong.
The wall has nothing to do with stealing land. It was built to keep out suicide bombers. Blowing up Israelis was one of the more stupid strategies of the Palestinians. Hopefully there will be peace and the Wall can come down.
I truly hope that you don't actually believe what you said. it is naive to think that the wall is protecting Israel. and believe me I've seen the wall and how it runs, it confiscated massive areas of farm land, not to mention underground water sources. i wish you would take a closer look at the situation and see the context in which suicide bombing started (not that i agree with violence) but you can't sit back and shout "terrorism" every time Israel commits an atrocity.
So what are you saying? That over 1,000 Israelis (mostly women and children) blown up in scores of attacks mean nothing? That Jews have no right to protect themselves from Palestinian suicide bombers?
I too have seen the wall but all you have to do is look at the drop in suicide bombings after the wall was erected to see the positive effect.
I agree that innocent Palestinians suffer hardship but this cannot trump the rights of Israelis to life.
i'm against any human loss. but suicide bombings are a direct result of years of Israeli occupation and extreme oppression of the Palestinians. so without dealing with the cause Israel can not erect walls and make Palestinians more miserable, for the claim of security.
i'm sure you noticed that Hamas started throwing rockets at Israel.
you can't close your eyes and wish terrorism away without dealing with the cause.
You claim that you are against human loss but then go on to add a "but" and sanction suicide bombings of civilians. Don't you see a problem there?
The bombing started in 2000, after Arafat turned down peace. The Palestinians turned to violence to achieve a political end, not ease their suffering. Their actions directly resulted in the Wall (which increased their suffering) but killing Israelis is more important to the radicals elements than peace or prosperity.
i did not sanction suicide bombings. also the bombing started in 2000 because negotiations led to nothing, the peace offer that you mentioned was simply a joke.
and how do you figure that killing Israelis is more important than peace to the Palestinians. you are being quite racist to assume that Palestinians hate peace and life and prefer death and war.
again, so far no real peace was offered to the Palestinians while settlements and suffering continue to grow.
You provided an excuse for suicide bombings, which is a form of tacit approval.
I never said "Palestinians hate peace and life and prefer death and war." I said that, "killing Israelis is more important to the RADICAL ELEMENTS than peace or prosperity." Do you disagree with this observation? How is this racist?
The Expansion of Borders resulted in Taking Palestinian land ,and who was they defending themselfes from, wasnt the palestinians. Settelment building is Illegal and wrong and the land was owned by Olive Farmers and Palestinians who Actuly owned the land, before it was Confiscated by the Jews! . The Wall is Against Human Rights Seperating towns and cities in Half ,and Putting the Palestinians in a prison. The wall has Nothing to do with Suicide Bombers! merely ways for israel to cut up Palestine
You are mixing 2 different issues. Settlement expansion does not result an expansion of the borders. The territory under Israeli control expanded during the war when Israel was attacked, not as a result of Israeli aggression. Israel cannot be blamed for winning the war.
I agree with you about the settlements, they are morally wrong,
The wall was built as a direct result of suicide bombing. It is really pointless to deny this. The timeline and Israeli body count clearly support this fact.
For every Israeli that feels that way, I can show you a hundred Arabs who believe the opposite, they don't want peace and want to see the end of Israel. Most of them seem to be here on YouTube.
why wud we want peace with people who stole our land, rape our women, put us in prisons, kill our children, destroy out homes, keep stealing our land, put up checkpoints, no travel, live in an open air prison, steal our water, control all our governments? You all really amaze me with your small minded idiotic thinking! It's like telling the Jews to make peace with a nazi! You Jews are our Nazis!
Most of the issues you raise are problems you have brought upon yourselves by engaging in terrorism.
Your analogy between the Israelis and Nazis is inherently false since the Israelis would rather live in peace whereas the Nazis wanted to murder every living Jew (as you would probably enjoy).
You have only two alternatives, make peace with the Israelis or destroy any hope of a future for your children, there is no other option. Until you accept this fact, you are doomed by your own stupidity.
The Nazis never originally intended to "murder every living Jew." The first option was to deport all Jews to Palestine, or Madagascar (Haavara Agreement, Madagascar Plan). The Final Solution was only possible with the outbreak of the Second World War, and was ultimately the only method of achieving their goal.
Ethno-centricity was the central ideal of National Socialism, and it also is the goal of Statist Zionism.
What is your point with respect to Nazis? That there really didn't want to kill Jews but had no other choice? If so, then what was their goal of which you speak?
Regarding "Statist Zionism" (whatever that is), are you aware the 20% of Israelis are non-Jewish and enjoy full democratic rights?
I'm not giving any respect to either party; I'm highlighting the failures of Romanticism in Europe and it's relation to the Zionist movement.
I'm fully aware that a fixed minority has a farcical impact on Israel's pathetic excuse for what they call a "Democracy" that is more militarized then any nation on Earth, that continues to occupy millions of it's neighbors, disregards international law, and completely ignores an international consensus on the two-state settlement.
What is the relationship between democracy and militarization? Israel needs a strong army for obvious reasons but the army does not rule the country.
Israel’s problem is that their political system affords TOO MUCH power to minority parties, not too little, as can be clearly seen from the undue influence of religious parties.
Israel offered a two state solution. It was the PA and now Hamas that refused.
You are just regurgitating propaganda. Study the issues yourself.
An essential foundation of any democracy is the consent of the governed. Israel has occupied millions in Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, and still occupies all of the West Bank and Jerusalem. None of theses people were ever legally occupied. Freedom of the press is also a necessity in any democracy but Israel doesn't even let any domestic journalists into Gaza, regardless of whether or not bombs are going off.
Israel is a short-term, messianic, and colonialist state. Not really a democracy.
You remind me of an ostrich; head stuck firmly in dogma, obvivious to the reality around you.
1M muslim, christians, and others live in Israel and ALL have an EQUAL vote. One person -> one vote, elected officials, limited terms, frequent fair elections; all the essential elements of democracy.
The media is open and more critical of the governemnt than most.
Israel is 63 yrs and counting, not messianic or colonialist (as evident from the withdraw from the Sinai and Gaza).
Israel still occupies the West Bank and East Jerusalem, none of those people have ever consented to being governed by Israel. These people are indefinitely occupied without any right to assemble or protest (without being shot by rubber bullets or tear gas canisters), and their leaders (Fatah) have been puppets of Israel since the end of the first Gulf War. The West Bank is becoming split into bantustans and the settlements are growing and entrenching.
True, that they are occupied. False that their leaders are puppets. However, the corrupt and ineffectual Palestinian leadership is a major impediment to peace. A stronger leadership with sufficient courage and support could bring about peace and end the occupation, in accordance with the desire of every person of conscience.
It is well known that after the Gulf War that the Arab League withdrew support for Arafat. Fatah was bankrupted and became a tool of Israel's occupation; the only case in modern history where a liberation movement became complicit in it's own people's oppression.
Israel more closely resembles the standard of democratic values that was present during the Era of Colonialism, and has since the conclusion of the Six-day-War. They draw their borders and demographics at the end of a gun just like every other haphazard "democracy" in the Middle East.
Those 1 million Arabs you referred to are a fixed minority to keep Israel demographically above 80% Jewish, which made sense when Israel was committed to it's original borders. What they call "Greater Israel", which includes Judea and Samaria, will demographically destroy Israel, and complete it's transition into a full blown Apartheid state. Israel doesn't want the a two-state settlement, and it certainly doesn't want unification, it wants the Palestinians to all give up and leave.
As you well know, "Greater Israel" is an agenda of radicals, not the Israeli mainstream.
Israel cannot agree to unification for the reason you provided (demographic destruction) and also the reasons you avoid, many Palestinians are sworn to genocide of the Jewish population.
Ultimately, your argument is morally bankrupt because you intentionally mis-state the case and ignore the facts, including the fact that Israel acquired the West Bank in an act of self-defence.
That's perhaps the most thoughtful response I've ever read. Hearing a politician in Lebanon or Gaza call for the destruction of the Israeli state doesn't connote genocide, let alone factor into reality.
"Israel acquired the West Bank in an act of self-defence."
I suppose you're going to say that the Separation Barrier - which is three times longer than the 1967 borders - isn't an obvious tool for land grab, but is actually entirely for "self-defence".
@spadelives - it is so simple to see thru the Zionist propaganda - the Palestinians where living in Palestine with a small jewish minority for centuries without any significant incidents. The Zionist Jews, supported by Britain, dispossessed the land from the Palestinians using every method available including terrorism. The Palestinians have been trying to get their land back since then. That's it in a nutshell.
you fag sumbitch, you took Jerusalem in 1967, and anywayz see how you don't deny taking it in the same manner as the crusaders. A savage, brutal and barbaric supplanting.
What's your problem? I'm Canadian and didn't take anything.
Jerusalem was partitioned according to the UN resolution in '48. The Arabs immediately laid seige to the Israeli section and many Israeli lives were lost before the seige was broken.
The remainder was occupied in '67 when Jordan attacked Israel. The Jordainians were the "savage, brutal and barbaric supplanting idiots" for attacking the Israelis in the first place.
They had a right to try and reclaim their lands from the terrorist Zionists and that won't be the last attempt either as the capture of east Jerusalem is still not recognised by the UN who repeatedly order Israel to return the land. If it wasn't for the stooge americans threatening intervention we would have whats rightly ours. Scumbag Canadians don't fight for shit but have big fukkin mouths.
i agree with what you are saying, but please be respectful, we don't need to use insults. the facts alone are able to discredit the other side. and i thank you for your passion.
If you're gonna ban me go ahead, but do not tell me how to conduct my arguments. Alot of goods truths doing to stevenaburton and his ilk, thy shamelessy come on here and try to pull the wool over peoples eyes and insult them to add insult to injury. It's people like him that will se innocent people in perpetual oppresssion.
Like i said, i agree with your points, and i did not mean to offend you, but I'm hoping to debunk stevenaburton's claims without resorting to insulting Canadians or whatever.
you are more than welcome to participate, we can use all the help we can get because we are against many years of misinformation and lies.
I may have been overzealous in criticizing Canadians as a whole, my mistake sorry. I guess some of my teenage impulsiveness remains, but this guy is either a knave or fool and it gets me going...
I truly appreciate your understanding, and i know how frustrating it gets when the other side simply ignores the facts, and they cling to mere fabrications to legitimize Israel's crimes.
should not bother to them. i watched the movie Avatar today, and in the movie there was this line saying that the humans wud steal and destroy everything on the alien's planet, then defend it. Sounds familiar?
I don't recall the aliens attacking the humans first, firing missles randomly into human cities, or sending in suicide bombers to murder innocent humans. if you think you are anything like the aliens, you are dreaming.
This video is a hoax itself!
triplecheck4 1 month ago
looking at the clothing the people are wearing they are from Turkey and Morocco not Israel,there never was a country called Palestine..what a hoax.And a poor one at that.
ProudPatriotPapa 6 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
The clothes don't look like the clothes from Israel because Israel did not exist at that time. it's true that the outfits resemble other Arab clothing because the Palestinians are part of the Arab World, not to mention that Palestine was under the Ottoman rule for hundreds of years. These pictures are well documented as pictures from Palestine before 1948. (by the way, Turkey and Morocco have totally different cultures, your knowledge of the Middle East is questionable!!)
CanaaniFilms 6 months ago
@CanaaniFilms The people with the pez hats are from Turkey the others are from Morocco ..I have friends from both countries and know exactly what the cultural clothing looks like from both areas ..looking at there home videos makes it pretty clear.
ProudPatriotPapa 6 months ago
So, still waiting for the "debunking".
In contrast to the clip you are trying to debunk, the vast majority of photos shown here are unverifiable as being where you are implying they are from.
And sorry but considering the reputations of some for "Pallywood" videos and the like I, for one, don't really trust you.
Scruitol 1 year ago
Ahhh now I understand where the Zionists get there Palestine was a desolate vacant Barron desert bull crap from.
tarrasque420 1 year ago
The goal of Israel from the beginning was to get as much land with as few Arabs as possible.
JohnnyRock2000 1 year ago
I hope to be alive to see the destruction of Zionism. And I have to think I got a reasonable shot at it
oldjoe5 2 years ago
This is like watching a video all about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Only difference is, that was big, and therefore someone took the time out to debunk that. I see here you have some 300 views, so I doubt anyone will bother correcting your misguided views.
Good luck with your history.
herc32 2 years ago
This is one way of saying that you cannot debunk any of these "misguided views".
I'd like to see you try though!!
Jeriesaj 2 years ago
Israle made the desert bloom.......
That explains why they steal water from there neighbors.
genYprogressive 2 years ago
I have talked, and i constantly talk to anybody that's willing to debate me. i did not say that Israelis believe that, because most Israelis have enough sense to look around them and see centuries of Palestinian existence, they can not deny the Palestinian existence like these Zionist fanatics do.
Zionism is based on establishing the state of Israel in Palestine with total disregard to the Palestinians and their existence.... Some people call that a bit racist if not evil!!!
CanaaniFilms 2 years ago
Most Israelis knows that in 1880 there were roughly 200,000 Arabs and 20,000 Jews living in smaller Palestine.
Most early Zionists believed that the local population will welcome the Jews and cooperate for a mutual prosperity- some actually did but unfortunately most did not.
Most Israelis wont deny that there were Palestinian Arabs, but would state that they had no Palestinian culture, language or identity to distinct them from other Arabs.
They ask- why didn't they fight Jordan and Egypt--->
d1974 2 years ago
(cont)
between 48'-67'? Why didnt they demand independence when Jordan annexed the west bank while Egypt put Gaza under military regime?
Why indeed?...
d1974 2 years ago
because neither Jordan nor Egypt tried to erase the Palestinian existence like Israel did, and did not expel the Palestinians and build settlements on their lands.
you can not compare the Israeli brutal occupation to the Jordanian or Egyptian control over Palestinian land.
the fact that Jordanians might have a culture or language similar to the Iraqis (for example) does not deny them the right of independence, this is a silly argument.
CanaaniFilms 2 years ago
Please remind me of expulsions in 67'.
If Israel is doing an ethnic cleansing as you say then it's doing a real sloppy job. The Palestinians are growing in numbers in a very normal rate.
So, basically what you say is that if Israel treated the Palestinians like the Jordans and the Egyptians did there would be no intifadas?
Somehow, I find it hard to believe.
And speaking of the alleged Jordanian humanistic regime -->
d1974 2 years ago
(cont)
I find it highly unlikely that the regime that perpetrated the atrocities of black September is the same regime that allegedly treated Palestinians in a fair and gentle way before that.. but you might be right- I don't know anything about the conditions in which Palestinians lived under Jordan.
But!- i do know that between 67-87 (first intifada) the Palestinians experienced an economic boom --->
d1974 2 years ago
(cont)
and their nascent economy grew in a rate that exceeded such economic wonders as Hong Kong.
I don't think that any economy can grow that fast under a brutal regime.
d1974 2 years ago
Thank You
CanaaniFilms 2 years ago
This video is pure garbage.
Benjiko 2 years ago
Why is it garbage?
name one thing that is not true!!
CanaaniFilms 2 years ago
Really? Can you point to any historical reference of the "Sanjak of Palestine?"
Most Israelis would not agree to more than a token return due to the fact that a mass return would be national suicide. However, most would definitely be in favour of compensation. In fact, a compensation fund was established as far back as 1949.
Can you define a "TRUE independent state?"
stevenaburton 3 years ago
it was officially called the "Sanjak of Jerusalem" which represented Palestine and the Palestinians.
i guess the issue of "national suicide" should have been thought of before they kicked the Palestinians out. and if that were true then why was the issue of refugees not allowed to be discussed in negotiations until 2000?
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
You provided an excuse for suicide bombings, which is tacit approval.
You misquoted me. I said, "killing Israelis is more important to the RADICAL ELEMENTS than peace or prosperity." How is this racist?
The Sanjak of Jerusalem didn't include anything in the north of Jerusalem. British Palestine included 4 or 5 Sanjaks. Anyway, my point was only that there was no entity called Palestine under the Turks.
Refugees were off the table because the issue is so contentious.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
A true independent state would be a sovereign state over all of the West Bank and Gaza, with east Jerusalem as the Capitol. and total control over borders, water resources and airspace. which has to include the dismantling of the settlements, and a resolution of the refugees issue.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
You should run for Palestinian Prime Minister. With people like you in charge, peace would be possible.
There would probably have to be some land-swapping to accommodate the largest settlement blocks and a phased opening of the borders to address Israeli security concerns but, fundamentally, what you want is possible.
If that is not possible, then the question is: Are the existing Palestinian government (Hamas today) also of like-minds?
stevenaburton 3 years ago
The problem is that supporters of Israel are quick to dismiss the Palestinians as fanatics and irrational, and that all they want is to wipe out the Jews.
Palestinians are rarely given the chance to express what they want. they are either represented by a group of corrupt puppets like Abu Mazen or extremists like Hamas, which is just what Israel wants.
Either way Israel is not Interested in negotiating with a representative of the moderate majority, because then Israel would have no excuse.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
The Palestinians voted for Hamas, which gives the impression that the Palestinians are extremist. Hamas talks about liberating Palestine from the Jordan to the sea, which gives the impression that the Palestinians want to wipe out Jews. However, I dont really believe this to be true.
The Israelis proved their sincerity when they offered peace to Arafat. They also made peace with Egypt and Jordan.
Whats needed is people like you in a leadership role instead of the corrupt or fanatic.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
When The Palestinians voted for Hamas they were tired of the corruption of Fatah, and they realized that the peace process was going nowhere. Also, unfortunately, Hamas was the only other option available, not that the Palestinians agreed with Hamas, it was an act of depression, and to their credit Hamas followed up on their campaign promises to get rid of corruption.
and if you've been paying attention Hamas has not used its "Jordan to the sea" rhetoric in many years, now they talk about 67
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
I understand that the election result was a reaction to poor governance by Fatah but why couldn't there have been other alternatives?
stevenaburton 3 years ago
as you probably know, in order to run for elections one needs money and support to run a campaign, so with Fatah being "supported" by Israel and the US and Hamas being supported by "other forces" (Iran), no one else in the Palestinian political arena stood a chance against these two giants. it was simply impossible for the independents to win.
like i said it's not as simple as you might think. There are bigger forces that control the scene.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
Israel and the US would both be delighted to support a more capable, moderate leadership without the legacy of corruption and deceit. Much as the Palestinians voted for Hamas, the West supports Abbas only because no better alternative exists.
The cost to mount a challenge would be in the millions, not billions. Surely Palestinian expatriates could raise some seed money? It is ironic but I bet the worlds Jewish community would chip in too. Once a new face is presented, the money would gush in.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
when they do send money, the pali leaders are very corrupted. 2) when they do send money to relatives they get accused of aiding terrorism. seriously what fantasy world are you living in?
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
It is difficult to understand what point you are trying to make, except for the part about my solution being a fantasy.
As difficult my solution might be to achieve, can you see any other way for the Palestinians to resolve their internal political issues? Is such a resolution possible under the existing leadership, Hamas or Fatah?
stevenaburton 2 years ago
Again you need to look into the details of the "Peace" that was "offered" to Arafat.
for example, in a prison the inmates occupy 90% of the facility, but that does not mean that they control it. this was similar to what was offered to Arafat. (90% of the West Bank and Gaza, with Israeli highways and settlements crisscrossing the Palestinian state). no control.
It's true that Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt, but it wasn't out of the kindness of its heart, yet it's not my concern.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
The offer wasn't too bad if you consider the fact that the areas initally under Israeli security control were officially going to be transfered to Palestine as the security situation stabalized.
A network of highways would benefit the Palestinians greatly so I am not sure why there would be an objection to this?
The offer was not perfect, from anyone's perspective. But here we are, almost a decade later, and what has been achieved? The deal was certainly better than the current situation.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
Also, thanks for the vote of confidence!
there are many Palestinians that are neither corrupt nor fanatic, but there are forces that are bigger that me and you that control who becomes a Palestinian leader, and sadly it's not the Palestinian people.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
Comment removed
stevenaburton 3 years ago
I agree- Israel should compensate the Palestinian refugees.
But, if you want to be fair, if you want justice to be done, then the Arab states should compensate all the Jewish refugees that were forced out, denationalized and had their property confiscated.
The number of refugees is roughly the same, but the Jews were, on average, more well off. The Arab compensation will be used to compensate the Palestinians and Israel will still be left with some extra change.
Peace
d1974 2 years ago
I'm going to have to disagree with one thing, most Arab Jews moved to Israel on their own, not to mention that some still live in the Arab countries until today.
Also, there were terrorist attacks on Jews in these Arab countries done by other Jews to encourage them to move to Israel.
Not to mention that Israel became the new home for Jews, the Palestinian refugees still live in tents in the diaspora.
CanaaniFilms 2 years ago
Im sorry, but you distort the facts- 1 terrorist attack was faked on the Jews of Iraq, how it had become a plural?
The numbers of Jews living in Arab countries now is so small it's ridiculous to even mention. 55,000 lived in Egypt in the 1940's, 200 live there today for example. The largest community of Jews is in Iran- 20,000 today, but Iran is not an Arab country.
Does the pogrom in Aden ring a bell? There were so many, I have no place to mention so please watch-
watch?v=pe7-ygT_sQ4
d1974 2 years ago
And please watch this as well-
watch?v=Ww7jOpFsUWk
Im willing to acknowledge Palestinian suffering on the sake of Zionism but as long as Palestinians and Arabs in general continue to deny the suffering of Jews under Islam and instead paint a rosy, false image, there would be no true reconciliation. That's basically what Mr. Cotler says in this video.
d1974 2 years ago
Even the worst of times for Jews under Islam was still better than anything the Jews went in Europe. We never hated the Jews so much to put u in gas chambers. If things were so bad why do many sephardim/mirachi still long for their original countries? I'm not saying it was utopia, but honestly, if any mizrachi got the chance to go back wud they?
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
That's true- Jews had it worse in Europe. But it's also true that at times like the emancipation they got a much better treatment than Muslims had ever gave them as a group.
To sum it up- Europe showed the Jews the best and the worst. Islam was more consistent- always mild bad.
Sure, as individuals, Jews could rise high under Islam. But as a group they were down-trodden. Even those individuals who that rose to prominence faced a risky situation- 2 of them were murdered in Cordoba by--->
d1974 2 years ago
(cont)--- Muslims who didn't like the idea that Jews had a higher social stature than they.
What you say about Mizrachim is not true. I was born and I live in Israel. They do not yearn to go back- quite the contrary. They are the ones who put in power the right-wing, nationalist, hard-line Likkud party in 77'.
Statistically, they have much more racists (Arab haters) than the Ashkenazim.
d1974 2 years ago
You should read about Ella Shodat. When i mean 'long' for their homeland i mean they miss certain aspects of it. Many Jews were very integrated in their countries with wealth. When they went in Israel they were treated so badly in Israel they had to prove to the white masters they were not like the Arabs. Jews under Islam spaned for 1000 years or more, during Islamic Spain jews were some of the most intellectual people. It's only when power got into muslims brains they started to treat jews bad
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
For one Ella Shohat there are 10,000 Sephardim who are hostile to their former countries. Shohat is a radical leftist and as such harbor a sympathy for the lower classes that transcends nationalities.
She is also an avid student of Edward Said. Said was debunked thoroughly by Ibn Warreq- a Pakistani and an ex-Muslim (atheist now).
Jews were always intellectuals- even when they were excluded from the host culture.
The Andalusian paradise is a myth- pumped up for political reasons.
d1974 2 years ago
I've also noticed Israelis always commenting how arabs treat their own; Arabs have problems yes, but all arab governments are Israeli puppets. I cud easily say about the big Ashkenazi/Mizrachi divide in Israel ie rich and poor, white and dark. But that's Jewish business. 14 million Jews and you all are very divided; liberal, orthodox, reform, ashkenazi, mizrachi, religous, secular, now imagine us Muslims, 1.6 billion.
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
Every society has divisions. The thing is how much violence does this tension between the groups leads to.
Judging by what goes on today in Iraq and Yemen, where Shiites and Sunnis are slaughtering each other, I would say that the Arabs have a bigger internal social problem than the Jews.
As for the Arab regimes as Israeli puppets- you strike me as an intelligent man, not one to fall for such conspiracy propaganda BS that is so rife in the Arab world.
You have internet- go and search for truth.
d1974 2 years ago
I've read your side of the story, and many books in Israel's defense has been debunked. If Arab governments told the palis to leave, then why are the palis fighting now? you expect a people who lived on land for 2000 years just to give it up easily. Yes, arabs have their own problems but it's not a 1-1 solution. Jews just lump the whole middle east as 'Arab', ignore the history, politics and culture of the people.
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
a. Palis did not inhabit the land for 2000 years and even some tiny part of them has- so what? For 3000 years there was some Jewish presence in the holy land. Up until 48' the majority in Jerusalem was Jewish.
b. Arab leaders did encourage Palis to leave- it's a fact and no-one has debunked it- cos it's a fact. However, there was an ethnic cleansing going on- on a VERY small scale. And no one said that they are not allowed to fight- even if they left of their own will--->
d1974 2 years ago
(cont)---> My problem is with the WAY they fight- blowing up civilians, adding nails and bolts to the bombs to increase misery, kidnapping soldiers- not treating them as war prisoners, not even allowing a red cross visit. And then go and cry about "human rights" and "war crimes". Hypocritical. Pathetic.
d1974 2 years ago
you have had years of utter ruthless European and Turkish rule. Did you know the French raped thousands of women in Alegria, or when the Italians ruled Tunisa the Nazis killed the Jews there? I seems strange to me you all are so ready to point fingers at Muslims how we treated the Jews when Europe has treated you all far worse.
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
Hey- I never said that the Europeans were better. I explicitly said that at times they were worse. The best and the worst happened to us in Europe.
And does the fact that the Europeans behaved like animals means that you were angels and should be praised? I don't think so.
And the Ottomans were Muslims- don't forget.
d1974 2 years ago
If they're not puppets why are israeli goods allowed in the Middle East, or why do they spend all their oil money behind materialistic things rather than helping their fellow Arabs or Muslims. Or is it up to today they have done nothing for Palestinian sovereignty. Even during the gaza genocide Egypt closed its borders to gaza so no help would go in. I think i know Muslims better than u. What i was trying to point out it's easy for jews to be united cause it's jut 14 million of u and 1 country.
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
Mubarak closed its borders out of fear of Hamas. Hamas is an offshoot of his domestic Muslim brotherhood which is his strongest opposition.
What I'm saying is- the Arab regimes have their own agenda- mainly to survive- many times they will find an outside enemy (Israel) to channel domestic hostility outside. That's what every dictator does.
SA, Egypt- they have their own agenda, their own interests. It's laughable to think they serve Israeli masters.
d1974 2 years ago
"gaza genocide"? 1400 dead is not a genocide. Stop thinking in propaganda terms and learn to see things as they are.
d1974 2 years ago
@CanaaniFilms Arab Jews were expelled, they didn't move on their own. Jews feared for their lives in Arab countries. That the Palestinians live as refugees in Arab countries shows how much Arabs care about Palestinians. Arabs care more about jews because you rarely hear in the media about the atrocities committed against their own even though they are much more abundant than the atrocities from Israel to palestine & viceversa.Had Arabs cared about independence, they would have done so in 1948-67
bootsielon 1 year ago
You are really shooting from the hip here.
Most Jordanians are ethnic Palestinians, not just refugees. More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan River. Jordan was carved out of Palestine in '46, only two years before Israel was created.
Refugees: many left voluntarily; expecting the war to be over in weeks. Many more fled the fighting. Some, but not all as you suggest, were driven out. The question is what can be done about this today?
stevenaburton 3 years ago
I'm not sure where you get your facts, well i guess i have an idea... i am still talking about the Palestinians in Palestine, there has always been a clear distinction between Palestine and Jordan.
Back to the Refugees: there is a number of studies, many by Israelis that detailed the events of "Al-Nakba" (How Israel was established) and the issue of ethnic cleansing is inescapable.
the solution is simple: they have the right to return or to compensation.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
The first time in the modern era anything was called Palestine was under the British and this included Jordan. For 400 years prior to that, the Turks had divided the whole region in to districts called Sanjaks and there was no Palestine.
I agree on the issue of return or compensation and the Israelis would too. However, this would require the Palestinians to give up on their dream of driving the Jews into the sea, which isn't likely.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
again we have to disagree on that, it was called Palestine back when Salahuddin fought the crusaders, and it continued to be Palestine even under the Turks rule, a gentleman from my home town even represented the "Sanjak" of Palestine in the Ottoman empire.
Also, most Israelis do not agree to the right of return or compensation. on the other hand (and speaking as a Palestinian) the vast majority of Palestinians do not want to drive Jews into the see. all they want is a TRUE independent state.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
Not really because you are operating on two false assumptions.
1)Your population ratio is for the whole of Palestine, including Jordan. In 1948, Jews represented the majority of the population in the Israeli part of the partition.
2)Israel didnt ethically cleanse 800,000 Palestinians to establish a state. Israel was created by UN resolution and over a million Palestinians live there today, so they obviously werent cleansed.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
not true...
first of all, it's not including Jordan, unless there were Palestinians that were kicked out to Jordan.
i'm not sure which partition you are talking about, since all of them were rejected because they were unfair.
also, Israel declared itself as a state after taking over 80% of Palestine with help from Britain of course and not through a UN resolution. and when it comes to ethnic cleansing, you have to be quite naive to ignore all the evidence produced by Israelis on that issue
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
I don't think anyone would say that the region was completely empty. It was just sparsely populated. There were always communities in Acco, Jerusalem, etc.
Israel was only established on 20% of British-era Palestine.
Although there were Arabs living there, there were Jews too. The Jews only got 20%. The other 80% went to the Arabs. It doesn't seem like an 80/20split is overly favourable to the Jews.
Whats the problem?
stevenaburton 3 years ago
Well, unfortunately it WAS said that Palestine was empty, one of the people that said that was Golda Meir (along with a number of Zionist writers). And the Palestinians were not just small communities here and there; it was a well established existence and culture throughout Palestine.
Im afraid that you got your numbers all mixed up; Israel was established on 80% of Palestine (even though it had absolutely no right), Palestinians were only left with the West Bank and Gaza. (Check the maps)
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
Its true that there were Jews in Palestine (less than 9% after WWI) and they lived in harmony with the Christians and the Muslims in Palestine. I dont see how that constitutes Israels right to ethnically cleanse 800,000 Palestinians and establish a state in their home. Do you now see the problem?
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
Israel was Created From Land Taken From Palestine! Or Stolen from The People Of Palestine! With so Many Palestinians Killed while there land was Confiscated And illegal Settelments even Today continue to Grow in what is left of Palestine! Boycott Israeli Goods, And Support The Palestinian People.
Jalaal1 3 years ago
Israel was created by UN resolution.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
Yes , But it didnt stop the israelis killing innocent people and stealing more land look at the original borders ! israel has stolen lots of Palestine! and thats why the wall is up to steal land.
Jalaal1 3 years ago
The expansion of the borders resulted from Israel defending itself in war. This is not stealing.
Encroachment on Palestinian land by settlements is clearly stealing in cases when the land is actually owned by Palestinians. This is indefensible and totally wrong.
The wall has nothing to do with stealing land. It was built to keep out suicide bombers. Blowing up Israelis was one of the more stupid strategies of the Palestinians. Hopefully there will be peace and the Wall can come down.
stevenaburton 3 years ago 2
I truly hope that you don't actually believe what you said. it is naive to think that the wall is protecting Israel. and believe me I've seen the wall and how it runs, it confiscated massive areas of farm land, not to mention underground water sources. i wish you would take a closer look at the situation and see the context in which suicide bombing started (not that i agree with violence) but you can't sit back and shout "terrorism" every time Israel commits an atrocity.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
So what are you saying? That over 1,000 Israelis (mostly women and children) blown up in scores of attacks mean nothing? That Jews have no right to protect themselves from Palestinian suicide bombers?
I too have seen the wall but all you have to do is look at the drop in suicide bombings after the wall was erected to see the positive effect.
I agree that innocent Palestinians suffer hardship but this cannot trump the rights of Israelis to life.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
i'm against any human loss. but suicide bombings are a direct result of years of Israeli occupation and extreme oppression of the Palestinians. so without dealing with the cause Israel can not erect walls and make Palestinians more miserable, for the claim of security.
i'm sure you noticed that Hamas started throwing rockets at Israel.
you can't close your eyes and wish terrorism away without dealing with the cause.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
You claim that you are against human loss but then go on to add a "but" and sanction suicide bombings of civilians. Don't you see a problem there?
The bombing started in 2000, after Arafat turned down peace. The Palestinians turned to violence to achieve a political end, not ease their suffering. Their actions directly resulted in the Wall (which increased their suffering) but killing Israelis is more important to the radicals elements than peace or prosperity.
I just feel sorry for the rest.
stevenaburton 3 years ago 2
i did not sanction suicide bombings. also the bombing started in 2000 because negotiations led to nothing, the peace offer that you mentioned was simply a joke.
and how do you figure that killing Israelis is more important than peace to the Palestinians. you are being quite racist to assume that Palestinians hate peace and life and prefer death and war.
again, so far no real peace was offered to the Palestinians while settlements and suffering continue to grow.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
You provided an excuse for suicide bombings, which is a form of tacit approval.
I never said "Palestinians hate peace and life and prefer death and war." I said that, "killing Israelis is more important to the RADICAL ELEMENTS than peace or prosperity." Do you disagree with this observation? How is this racist?
stevenaburton 3 years ago
The Expansion of Borders resulted in Taking Palestinian land ,and who was they defending themselfes from, wasnt the palestinians. Settelment building is Illegal and wrong and the land was owned by Olive Farmers and Palestinians who Actuly owned the land, before it was Confiscated by the Jews! . The Wall is Against Human Rights Seperating towns and cities in Half ,and Putting the Palestinians in a prison. The wall has Nothing to do with Suicide Bombers! merely ways for israel to cut up Palestine
Jalaal1 3 years ago
You are mixing 2 different issues. Settlement expansion does not result an expansion of the borders. The territory under Israeli control expanded during the war when Israel was attacked, not as a result of Israeli aggression. Israel cannot be blamed for winning the war.
I agree with you about the settlements, they are morally wrong,
The wall was built as a direct result of suicide bombing. It is really pointless to deny this. The timeline and Israeli body count clearly support this fact.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
wichever way you look at it ! israel does not want peace! and they want to see the end of palestine.
Jalaal1 3 years ago
For every Israeli that feels that way, I can show you a hundred Arabs who believe the opposite, they don't want peace and want to see the end of Israel. Most of them seem to be here on YouTube.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
why wud we want peace with people who stole our land, rape our women, put us in prisons, kill our children, destroy out homes, keep stealing our land, put up checkpoints, no travel, live in an open air prison, steal our water, control all our governments? You all really amaze me with your small minded idiotic thinking! It's like telling the Jews to make peace with a nazi! You Jews are our Nazis!
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
Most of the issues you raise are problems you have brought upon yourselves by engaging in terrorism.
Your analogy between the Israelis and Nazis is inherently false since the Israelis would rather live in peace whereas the Nazis wanted to murder every living Jew (as you would probably enjoy).
You have only two alternatives, make peace with the Israelis or destroy any hope of a future for your children, there is no other option. Until you accept this fact, you are doomed by your own stupidity.
stevenaburton 2 years ago
The Nazis never originally intended to "murder every living Jew." The first option was to deport all Jews to Palestine, or Madagascar (Haavara Agreement, Madagascar Plan). The Final Solution was only possible with the outbreak of the Second World War, and was ultimately the only method of achieving their goal.
Ethno-centricity was the central ideal of National Socialism, and it also is the goal of Statist Zionism.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
@JimmyeDallas
What is your point with respect to Nazis? That there really didn't want to kill Jews but had no other choice? If so, then what was their goal of which you speak?
Regarding "Statist Zionism" (whatever that is), are you aware the 20% of Israelis are non-Jewish and enjoy full democratic rights?
spadelives 1 year ago
I'm not giving any respect to either party; I'm highlighting the failures of Romanticism in Europe and it's relation to the Zionist movement.
I'm fully aware that a fixed minority has a farcical impact on Israel's pathetic excuse for what they call a "Democracy" that is more militarized then any nation on Earth, that continues to occupy millions of it's neighbors, disregards international law, and completely ignores an international consensus on the two-state settlement.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
@JimmyeDallas
What is the relationship between democracy and militarization? Israel needs a strong army for obvious reasons but the army does not rule the country.
Israel’s problem is that their political system affords TOO MUCH power to minority parties, not too little, as can be clearly seen from the undue influence of religious parties.
Israel offered a two state solution. It was the PA and now Hamas that refused.
You are just regurgitating propaganda. Study the issues yourself.
spadelives 1 year ago
An essential foundation of any democracy is the consent of the governed. Israel has occupied millions in Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, and still occupies all of the West Bank and Jerusalem. None of theses people were ever legally occupied. Freedom of the press is also a necessity in any democracy but Israel doesn't even let any domestic journalists into Gaza, regardless of whether or not bombs are going off.
Israel is a short-term, messianic, and colonialist state. Not really a democracy.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
You remind me of an ostrich; head stuck firmly in dogma, obvivious to the reality around you.
1M muslim, christians, and others live in Israel and ALL have an EQUAL vote. One person -> one vote, elected officials, limited terms, frequent fair elections; all the essential elements of democracy.
The media is open and more critical of the governemnt than most.
Israel is 63 yrs and counting, not messianic or colonialist (as evident from the withdraw from the Sinai and Gaza).
Look around...
spadelives 1 year ago
Israel still occupies the West Bank and East Jerusalem, none of those people have ever consented to being governed by Israel. These people are indefinitely occupied without any right to assemble or protest (without being shot by rubber bullets or tear gas canisters), and their leaders (Fatah) have been puppets of Israel since the end of the first Gulf War. The West Bank is becoming split into bantustans and the settlements are growing and entrenching.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
@JimmyeDallas
True, that they are occupied. False that their leaders are puppets. However, the corrupt and ineffectual Palestinian leadership is a major impediment to peace. A stronger leadership with sufficient courage and support could bring about peace and end the occupation, in accordance with the desire of every person of conscience.
Personally, I oppose settlement building as well.
spadelives 1 year ago
It is well known that after the Gulf War that the Arab League withdrew support for Arafat. Fatah was bankrupted and became a tool of Israel's occupation; the only case in modern history where a liberation movement became complicit in it's own people's oppression.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
@JimmyeDallas
I agree he was a tool, but I am not sure about the Israeli occupation part.
spadelives 1 year ago
Israel more closely resembles the standard of democratic values that was present during the Era of Colonialism, and has since the conclusion of the Six-day-War. They draw their borders and demographics at the end of a gun just like every other haphazard "democracy" in the Middle East.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
Those 1 million Arabs you referred to are a fixed minority to keep Israel demographically above 80% Jewish, which made sense when Israel was committed to it's original borders. What they call "Greater Israel", which includes Judea and Samaria, will demographically destroy Israel, and complete it's transition into a full blown Apartheid state. Israel doesn't want the a two-state settlement, and it certainly doesn't want unification, it wants the Palestinians to all give up and leave.
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
@JimmyeDallas
As you well know, "Greater Israel" is an agenda of radicals, not the Israeli mainstream.
Israel cannot agree to unification for the reason you provided (demographic destruction) and also the reasons you avoid, many Palestinians are sworn to genocide of the Jewish population.
Ultimately, your argument is morally bankrupt because you intentionally mis-state the case and ignore the facts, including the fact that Israel acquired the West Bank in an act of self-defence.
spadelives 1 year ago
"Sworn to genocide"?
That's perhaps the most thoughtful response I've ever read. Hearing a politician in Lebanon or Gaza call for the destruction of the Israeli state doesn't connote genocide, let alone factor into reality.
"Israel acquired the West Bank in an act of self-defence."
I suppose you're going to say that the Separation Barrier - which is three times longer than the 1967 borders - isn't an obvious tool for land grab, but is actually entirely for "self-defence".
JimmyeDallas 1 year ago
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@spadelives - it is so simple to see thru the Zionist propaganda - the Palestinians where living in Palestine with a small jewish minority for centuries without any significant incidents. The Zionist Jews, supported by Britain, dispossessed the land from the Palestinians using every method available including terrorism. The Palestinians have been trying to get their land back since then. That's it in a nutshell.
phellenic 3 months ago
The crusaders held Jerusalem for 88 years, let's see how long these zionist scumbags hold on for...42 years and counting...
antidote1985 3 years ago
What are you living back in 1990? It is going on 61 years.
Let's hope it is another thousand.
stevenaburton 3 years ago
you fag sumbitch, you took Jerusalem in 1967, and anywayz see how you don't deny taking it in the same manner as the crusaders. A savage, brutal and barbaric supplanting.
antidote1985 3 years ago
What's your problem? I'm Canadian and didn't take anything.
Jerusalem was partitioned according to the UN resolution in '48. The Arabs immediately laid seige to the Israeli section and many Israeli lives were lost before the seige was broken.
The remainder was occupied in '67 when Jordan attacked Israel. The Jordainians were the "savage, brutal and barbaric supplanting idiots" for attacking the Israelis in the first place.
stevenaburton 3 years ago 2
They had a right to try and reclaim their lands from the terrorist Zionists and that won't be the last attempt either as the capture of east Jerusalem is still not recognised by the UN who repeatedly order Israel to return the land. If it wasn't for the stooge americans threatening intervention we would have whats rightly ours. Scumbag Canadians don't fight for shit but have big fukkin mouths.
antidote1985 3 years ago
i agree with what you are saying, but please be respectful, we don't need to use insults. the facts alone are able to discredit the other side. and i thank you for your passion.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
If you're gonna ban me go ahead, but do not tell me how to conduct my arguments. Alot of goods truths doing to stevenaburton and his ilk, thy shamelessy come on here and try to pull the wool over peoples eyes and insult them to add insult to injury. It's people like him that will se innocent people in perpetual oppresssion.
antidote1985 3 years ago
Like i said, i agree with your points, and i did not mean to offend you, but I'm hoping to debunk stevenaburton's claims without resorting to insulting Canadians or whatever.
you are more than welcome to participate, we can use all the help we can get because we are against many years of misinformation and lies.
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
I may have been overzealous in criticizing Canadians as a whole, my mistake sorry. I guess some of my teenage impulsiveness remains, but this guy is either a knave or fool and it gets me going...
antidote1985 3 years ago
I truly appreciate your understanding, and i know how frustrating it gets when the other side simply ignores the facts, and they cling to mere fabrications to legitimize Israel's crimes.
keep up the good work... Peace
CanaaniFilms 3 years ago
should not bother to them. i watched the movie Avatar today, and in the movie there was this line saying that the humans wud steal and destroy everything on the alien's planet, then defend it. Sounds familiar?
xplosivelilly 2 years ago
I don't recall the aliens attacking the humans first, firing missles randomly into human cities, or sending in suicide bombers to murder innocent humans. if you think you are anything like the aliens, you are dreaming.
stevenaburton 2 years ago