John Piper's Agonizing Problem with Assurance of Salvation

[MsHannelore]

If he talks any faster my head would spin.

[roxykattx]

This is actually pretty clever, but not convincing. For example, trying to know what is truly in your own heart is most definitely not as easy as deciding whether somebody "looks English" or not.

[hemet92544]

ps this dude talking needs to stay away from starbucks, its crack

[hemet92544]

My dislike was number 66

[candiceevans1]

he is talking about people in general ,,,people doubt their salvation because its such a huge matter ,,,most people will go through a time in their life when they wonder if they are really saved,,,because there are so many people arguing over doctrine,,,it seems like arminians try to attack calvinists just because they are calvinists,,,,im tired of it personally,,,i dont see calvinists all over the place defaming the character of Arminians but I do see the later engaging in slander of calvinists

[LadyNemesis2007]

I think that no one can be 100 percent sure that they are saved---- and that makes for continued faith. We should not be obsessing about our salvation anyway. It totally self-absorbed.

Trusting that we are saved is the essence of salvation. You can have 100 percent hard eveidence when you function in trust.

[dreiher2]

@LadyNemesis2007 I am 100% sure I have everlasting life. What else does John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 11:26 mean? It says whoever believes in Him, that is, persuaded of His promise, has eternal life. You either believe with 100% assurance or you do not. You either believe George Washington was the 1st president or you do not. That is the same kind of "belief" that saves. You either believe His promise of everlasting life or you don't. It is that simple in John 3 16.

[UnrealHelix]

Man....what was the point? I'm glad I didn't waste time watching the whole video...

[Domodeath]

1st John 1 is the test...

[MrCharrrles]

good luck with your future christian endeavours....

[LarsonGirl4]

I follow your line of thinking and it make sense. From what you say of Piper's beliefs, it sounds that he is spreading "bad news" instead of "good news," the very meaning of "Gospel." I hope you are right, because salvation by works is enough to give one permanent anxiety. How would you ever know from minute to minute if you were going to end up in hell or not.

[martalog121]

well done...neolegalism is a step backward to....Rome

too bad these 2 (Piper & Sproul)are sailing under a false flag

[Amarx00]

you talk too fast

[k0smon]

Carlton Pearson's gospel of inclusion solves this whole question.

[JONAH222NCSGAZ]

The problem here is that believers do not receive a NEW HEART. They still have the same old FILTHY HEART. They receive a NEW SPIRIT. This NEW SPIRIT can be "grieved" but never REMOVED. (Ephesians 4:30) It is "grieved" when the believer looks to his FILTHY HEART for help, rather than looking to the HOLY SPIRIT for comfort and assurance. The FILTHY HEART will point to SELF; the HOLY SPIRIT to CHRIST. Our holiness is in the ETERNAL SPIRIT, which is from above, not in our FILTHY HEART, from below.

[k0smon]

I think we need a big dose of Carlton Pearson's gospel of inclusion here.

[hannaremnant]

Dudes, this guy is making a legitimate argument that can plague would-be believers because of doubts of what saving faith is.

[k0smon]

@hannaremnant It could very well be that the bible is the problem and causes the confusion. Mixed messages : faith, works, baptism, confession. Is Jesus God? Or just the son of God? As Bart Ehrman says, the bible is full of contradictions and errors. Constantine really did a number on us.

[tommax26]

@k0smon Part of the problem is the Bart Ehrman is an apostate and he is dragging many people into his apostasy. His goal is to attempt to nullify the Bible. Be careful whom you choose to be taught by.

Tom

[k0smon]

@tommax26 ;;; Bart Ehrman went into bible school as a fundamentalist, and came out the other end non-fundamental. He found that the historical evidence of the bible did not support the claim that it was the word of God. He was honest in proclaiming his conclusion. I agree with him.

[roller1290]

Very good points. At least someone is addressing this issue of assurance of the believer. I am a Calvinist of about 2 years. And I have never seen so many wish washy Christians when it comes to their own assurance. They are afraid of their own shadow. Just as you pointed out, "our humbleness is NOT the basis for our assurance" By the way, this lack of assurance or false humility is not what Augustine or Calvin taught.

You are speaking quite fast and its hard to follow at times though.

[sparwood8]

Buddy; you have talked for 6 minutes so far, and have said NOTHING

[spea93]

You should watch Ian Mcormacks testimony, it's an amazing testimony where the man who becomes a christian survives 5 stings from box jelly fish and experiences heaven

[PastorInTraining11]

I think its dumb how this man critiques biblical Godly men, rather than the pastors who do not preach on the true gospel.

[tlm253]

That's what judgment is for, You can have assurance all the days long about your salvation but Jesus will tell you ultimately on judgment day not your own assurance so yeah that's what he's implying .

[TheCannonofMohammed]

You know you're saved if the Lord has blessed you with health, a youthful appearance, a lot of money and stuff like that. Oh yeah---you also need a trophy wife who uses too much mascara. Then you know you're in. NOT! NOT! NOT!

[KiddJesus]

wow shame to you wow

discusting

[RozyczkaProAna18]

am i not saved then if i heard a different interpretation concerning a subject in the bible and was worried about which one is true? let me tell you somthn: once my dad told me that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are three separate Gods and the One God refered to in the bible is rather like a Kingdom or Godship of God somthn like that. I felt so spiritually sick afterwards, only later I found out God showed me the gift of disernment I 've been praying for and thats how I know God is One.

[HelpingYouDiscern]

Why don't you post HIS sermon, and let us listen to the ENTIRE counsel of his words, rather than spin.

Then, at the end of HIS entire sermon, you can present your opinion.

You are just ranting and raving here. USELESS

[sponge63]

There are thousands of false converts being made every day by so called preachers of the Gospel who tell people to just repeat after me and you'll be sure of Heaven. Assurance is promised to those with true saving faith and I have never heard Sproul or Piper or any reformed exegete say anything to the contrary. This guy needs to spend some time learning the Word of God instead of distorting the words of far better men than him!

[kaylanc82]

That's neat how you can make up john piper's responses. You could have a fun debate with him in the mirror.

[actionong]

Ur a moron Andrew c bain

[moniato89]

But read the bible and found out before you speak stupidity what menas to be sure of salvation. i thank God for the faith wich makes me a new creature in Christ.

[moniato89]

the assurance my friend is this: FRUITS.

i feel compasion for the guy who made the video he is loosing his time instead of repenting.

[moniato89]

this guy is lost and doesnt know what is talking about but you see now!! the problem is that he think is got th truth!!

[jesusslave]

btw, not knocking the accent, wasn't an insult, I like it. Just was kind of hard to understand cause he talked fast.

[jesusslave]

Jude 8.. reject authority..

Hebrews 10 v. 25..assemble together

Titus 1 v. 5..set up the churches..

First of all.. I think your video is scary for you.. there is a God in heaven, and He hears al you say about His servants..

Second.. Piper and Sproul are used to these attacks..remember tho, you are attacking the truth(God), scary! Where is your fear of God?

Third..do you belong to a church? If you do not.. you are in error! get into a church and put yourself under authority of a Godly shep

[BigVK19]

Hm... what makes you think that Piper and Sproul are the AUTHORITY? Why don't you consider AndrewcBain the AUTHORITY? Because he does not have a large ministry?

[jesusslave]

that's kind of a strange question..

first, I didn't know andrewcbain was a preacher, with a church, and chosen by God to sheperd a flock, which is the body of Christ.

second, Piper and Sproul are preachers of the truth..

so I am not saying that they are the authority, but that they preach the truth.

this guy is speaking against the truth that they preach.

I have always been taught that armineans are my bro and sisters.

this bain person is claiming these guys are heretics..

scary!

[BigVK19]

It's up to *US* to test the prophets and the teachers. So, I am not convinced that Piper and Sproul are 'preachers of the truth'. I'm not saying they are wrong on everything. I'm just saying that we are to judge their teaching in light of Scripture.

What exactly do you find wrong with Andrew's critiques? Is he calling Piper and Sproul any names? Can't we disagree respectfully?

Remember, Paul corrected Peter (Galatians 2) so no man is inerrant.

[jesusslave]

ok, I just watched it again, I have to say, this guy talks way too fast, its very hard to hear every word he says, enter in the thick accent, and I had to stop it a few times.

anyway, scripture is clear, telling us not just to test teachers(there are no more prophets) but to test ourselves 2 corinthians 13v. 5, the Lord Himself tells us, there are many self-decieved that call Him Lord, Lord(math.7v.21)that are not saved. and 1John is a letter for testing, these are all tests for a believer.

[BigVK19]

Again, you critique Andrew but don't cite any specifics, only citing general references to testing, which apply to ALL, including Andrew but also Piper, Sproul, et. al.

Read Matt 7:21 again. You'll find that those who ended up unsaved in the end relied on their performance, exactly how Piper and Sproul and all modern Calvinists teach you should check your own salvation. In light of Matt 7:21 you'd think they'd reconsider their position.

[jesusslave]

verse 23 clearly states the reason for His rebuke.. "you workers of iniquity"

yes, due to their practice of life, being full of sin..

and this is a clear exhortation to examine yourself in light of what salvation is...

bain is saying, you must not second guess your salvation, or it is of works on your own part..

well, sproul and piper are saying, because of Christs and nt teaching, to not examine yourself against scripture is self-deception..

you must take the tests laid out in scipture.

[BigVK19]

while you are quoting the verses correctly, you miss the point. Pharisees were workers of iniquity because they relied on their OWN righteousness, rather than Christ's. So it was with these people.  And so it will be with all religious people of this world, who did not trust Christ but their works.

[jesusslave]

Yes, Jesus called them "white-washed tombs" "they draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him"

I am not desputing with you, works=salvation.

I am saying, that "easy believism" is a lie, that all one has to do is confess, say they believe in God(james 2v.19) and they are saved from the wrath of God. This is a lie from satan. Jesus told us whom they are that believe "those who love Me obey my commands" This is a gift of God, a test to take, when He saves, you love Him.

[BigVK19]

Ah, so the LOVE is required for justification, not just faith?

That's the problem with Calvinists today. What are they afraid of when they claim to be preaching 'faith ALONE', but redefine 'faith' in such a way that it means NOTHING but alone.

Second, read James 2 again. NOONE claims that belief in God is salvational. If that were so, then pharisees would be saved.

They believed in God and they had works.

[jesusslave]

no, they said they believed in God, but when God was right in front of them, they killed Him.

And so is true with today, all those who claim to know God, but have no desire for Him.. these are decieved..

or is God a liar?

He says, all things become new..corinthians..

it is faith alone, thru jesus alone, by grace alone..

but these facts do not dismiss His gracious tests.. to examine yourself..

why do you not like these warnings and tests found in scipture, they are not works.

[BigVK19]

so, what you are saying is that even having good works (i.e. abstaining from adultery, reading the Bible, tithing, etc..), one can still possess only spurious faith? James 2:24 is often cited as support for 'faith will inevitably produce works'.

So, please show me where tests are NOT works.

What kind of things are you looking for to prove to yourself that you are truly, absolutely positively regenerated (at least for now)?

[jesusslave]

and bigvk19.. I say this, because I thought i was saved for 8 years.. I had the good confession, I went to church, occassionally, I said I believed in God, I dared not say I was an atheists.. but I was still dead in my sins.. when God started drawing me to Himself, and He opened my eyes to see, I was reading things about a Christian, that I did not have, these things He gives with salvation, I did not have in my life, and so I failed the test..I thank Him for His word, and His mercy to show me.

[BigVK19]

what made you saved finally?

[jesusslave]

Psalm 3 v. 8

God

[jesusslave]

in other words.. these tests and warnings are not works unto salvation..

but they are a gift of God, that anyone who cliams Him, can look and see what He does with a soul when He saves them.

and ALL the warnings "not to be decieved" these do not save you, but they are there for the purpose of self-examination..

your problem is with the Lord, and the apostels, who all knew, there would be those who thougth they were saved, but were decieved.

I was one of them..

[BigVK19]

well, your problem is that you think all warnings have to do with salvation from hell. Instead, I can think of other way a warning was issued:

1. Jesus was talking to religious types that thought their righteousness will save them.

2. Jesus was warning believers that backsliding will result in loss of rewards, loss of physical life, etc... But NOT their salvation, which is unmerited, free gift.

[jesusslave]

ok, loss of reward? or life?

what does Jesus mean when He says.."depart from Me you who practice lawlessness"??

were these unregenerate men?

or were these saved ones?

either way, they are not with Him, just because they professed, and worked in His name, ie, tythe, abstaining from adultery, ect.

and if any man, uses this freedom in Christ as a reason to sin? Romans 6 v. 1

and do you believe in "you must be born again!"

unless one is born again, he is not saved.

are you born again?

[BigVK19]

question - who from humanity does NOT practice lawlessness? James 2:10 says that if you break one law, you are guilty of breaking ALL of law. Is James a liar?

So, in light of James 2:10, if YOUR performance is going to be evaluated in order to admit you to heaven, how will you get there?

[jesusslave]

exactly, again, I am not saying that the works, or friut saves you.. I am saying that if the tree is good( born again tree) it will produce good friut.. if the tree is bad( unsaved, unregenerate) the tree will produce bad fruit..

not saying works save!!

I am saying, a saved person will have a new nature..

if you are the same person after God saved you, then God didn't save you.

this is truth..

He doesn't leave you the way He found you.

that is a lie.

you are different.

[jesusslave]

the whole nt is a picture of what Christ does with an unregenerate person..

He saves.. and in doing this, fruit will follow.

If you have not the fruit of this salvation..

I tell you, on authority of scripture, that you must examine whether or not you have truly repented, and truly put your faith in Christ.. because all whom He saves, of His seed, birthed into His family, all Christians will have these fruits, some immature, some more mature, but all have His new nature, don't be decieved

[BigVK19]

This is all empty talk on your part. Why are you dodging my question about the specifics of what kind of fruit is needed to prove regeneration?

Must your finances reflect fruit of regeneration? Remembers, cannot serve God and money.

[YuGiOhDuelChannel]

I believe you are taking his words out of context, he was talking about what some Christians go through, not what he is going through.

[zitan17]

He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[k9anathoth]

I am responding only out of concern for you Mr AndrewcBain I don`t understand what your motives are but it is obvious that you speak with out knowledge in this area ( "like God") and need some guidance in the understanding of the scriptures. (2 Pe 3:16). as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

[laserwayjs]

I was saddened as I listened to this. You place much conficence in your flesh and in your own knowledge, rather than relying on the knowledge of God revealed through Scripture. You claim things that you know nothing about. The statements you made about Piper show you know not what he teaches and believes. Read Matthew 7:22 and James 2:17-20- these are the essence of what he was teaching. I pray you stop making it your mission to "cut-down" Godly men, in doing so you are not honoring God.

[miles8c]

Its unreal how many "internet pastor/teachers" have surfaced, listening to seasoned men of God and then trying to rebutt them. You need to get a life and become accountable to a local church. But I forgot..people like you say "no church teaches a "pure" gospel." Start your own "online". (Ridiculous) Trying to explain scripture with stupid ananlogies.

[pilling19]

Andrew,

this and other of your videos are overflowing with arrogance and are damaging the reputations of many godly respected men that God is using to lead His people. You are taking small pictures of what these men write and say out of context and out of the big picture of what these men preach. Please Andrew, edify your family. Can we not as Christians life each other up and glorify our Father? Why are there so many videos criticizing great men and not glorifying our God?

[Dejavu12321]

My salvation lays in my belief that the lord died to pay the price for our sins and that out of love and grace he will save me and not my own works, thus I feel as if though I want to live my life for him out of gratitude and love.

[jingling30]

Your closing arguments are very persuasive.

[ironshadowspider]

Piper's problem is not that he doubts his own assurance, his agony is out of loving concern for others, who do not understand what assurance really means. It is about fruit.

[jingling30]

what about the fruit in John 2:23 where people witness the miracles of Jesus and belive in his name, yet Christ rejects them.

[ironshadowspider]

First, I think the passage, by juxtaposing the "miracle-believers" with the disciples' belief due to the the scriptures (a true understanding of who He was, the Christ) in the previous verse makes it clear that they were only amazed by signs and did not understand who Jesus was, the Messiah, and thus it was impossible for them to truly believe. Not to be hard on miracles in general, just here it's clear. Also, by fruit I meant deeds overflowing from a transformed heart- like in James 2:14-26.

[jingling30]

This is helpful. I read the whole book of John last night and your accessment seems correct. Thank you.

[ironshadowspider]

Dude, I must say I have to give you props for reading the gospel of John in its entirety in one evening! The Bible is the single best source of specific revelation that we get and most of us don't read it nearly enough, so kudos and keep it up.

[FishStudios]

wow! You have the most confusing and conflicting explanations ever. I've heard atheists with more logical thoughts. I thought that was impossible. Is there anybody you respect besides yourself?

[sparwood8]

@FishStudios Now we see what smoking pot can do to a mind. Remember this though: 1 Corinthians 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God Romans 1:22 - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

[Pacslyf]

@FishStudios hahaaa LOL cracked me up lol

[Imaginefree69]

Your god has not had a single success yet. He made perfect angels. He made perfect humans on a perfect earth. He had a perfect son. And ALL of them end up tortured and dead. He ends up with a few thousand buddies to lay around paradise with for ever while ALL the rest are destroyed or tortured for eternity. Has there ever been a bigger loser? Ever? Thank Reason it's just an insane delusion. That burning bush that started it all must have been a hell of a hallucinogen! Moses was trippin!

[Logawill]

get off your high horse.

[BonzaiJakab]

Is your sole purpose to dishonor faithful men of God so that your own wisdom will seem intelligent?

It won't work.

[jingling30]

Seems like you're judging unjustly. Unless of course you know the hearts of man. But I've never make that claim. Perhaps you are quit comfortable making those judgements.

[sKeyes89]

This guy needs to be doing commercial disclaimers, not teaching.

[duckiesdad]

slow down so that your mind catches up with your mouth

[duckiesdad]

self examination is biblical and being self deceived is a real possibility. There will be many on judgment day who thought they were doing great things in the name of Jesus. Examine yourselves.

[jingling30]

On what basis? That's John's point. Or, I guess a point.. at least.

[italian724]

Very insightful I thought. You presented both arguments clear while maintaining a respect for Piper despite your disagreenment with him. Good Video

[zachpsick]

okay. i made it exactly three minutes into the video before I fell asleep... ramble, stutter, ramble... I dont think Piper is right just because he articulates his point better, but I dont even know what your point is...

[edwardchow650]

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

1 Corinthians 16:22

If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.

[ILiveCauseHeLives]

is there anybody you are not criticial of?

[6qrents]

I think that he loves himself...

[vyperr3]

why are you so arguementative on one thing that he said...then start to take away from his teachings by adding your own and assuming his position on things...he is merely saying that many people WHO THINK that they know him, trust him, and love him...on the last day..many will come up to him and be told from the Father himself "i never knew you".

[thecrimsonturd]

Wow, the lunatic fringe Christians have really started an all-out war on your comments/ratings of your videos.

[roo1646]

who ever this is talking shut up talking because you try to talk about paul washer to...go read your bible

[jme1976]

We see fruit in the persons life.

[csu12]

Andrewcbain: It's clear you dont understand what Piper is saying. Piper doesnt question his own assurance. And he wasnt questioning his assurance with the comment in the video. He says "So the agonizing question for SOME is: do I (pertaining to those SOME) really have saving faith". It's called "examining yourself" which the Bible says to do, to see if you're in the faith (or have saving faith).

[Esther74]

If our life doesn't show that it means He is not in charge, we are not dead to ourselves and we do not have saving faith. This is not being saved by works, but the works present testifying of my saving faith; being a proof of my saving faith. My faith that WILL save me if i keep holding on to it till the end.

[Esther74]

We loose the rope toward salvation when we think it's all God's doing to save us and now that we once held on to the rope we will anyway end up on the beach. "Nothing can separate us from the love of christ" Romans says, but everything mentioned there are external factors. There IS one thing that CAN separate us from His love; namely OURSELVES. Our lives have to show the character of Christ as PROOF He lives in us.

[Esther74]

The moment we hold on to the rope we are not saved yet, but we are going toward salvation as God is taking us in by the means of faith. But when we let go, we are not going toward salvation and not heading for the right direction. God can not save us when we let go, as much as in natural life a person can't be saved if he/she let's go of the rope.

[Esther74]

Piper says: The really agonising problem is whether I am saved personally by those facts.

It's like throwing out a rope or anything to the one that is about to drown to hold on to. This can be compared with the 'saving facts' of John Piper. And the person in perill accepting the rope that signifies the moment of repentance and acceptance of the salvation provided by God through Christ.

[Esther74]

It's ridiculous that a fig tree (person saved) should bring forth thistles (sin, which can be either an attitude, action, thought or word, or a lack of these when called for)

[Esther74]

Only when you get to see and acknowledge that it's absent in your life and are bothered by it, you can confess this sin to Him and He will forgive you and you will be saved again as long as your life keeps showing the fruit of your faith. So, the fruit of the Spirit doesn't save you but it's a proof, a way to distinguish, that when absent, one is NOT saved.

[Esther74]

Read the part about the thorns not able to produce figs and vice versa. So, it's not enough to say you know or love or serve Christ and do miracles in His name or preach the gospel. It's only enough if your life shows the fruit of the Spirit, the characteristics of Christ. If these are absent, faith is absent, the knowledge of Christ is absent and salvation - at that point in time - is absent as well.

[Esther74]

So, the important thing is to keep studying the word and having a CORRECT AND COMPLETE understanding of it. So, we need to know the context of things. To study the bible per book as to NOT misinterpret the message by taking things out of its' context. Cause if we don't understand things in the right way, we will not act upon it in the right way and not believe in the right way. If there is no practical proof of our faith, then the bible says there IS NO FAITH.

[Esther74]

Go look up the part in the bible where it talks about 'did we not do miracles in Your name and healed in Your name?" and Christ says 'Go away I don't know you"..... What do you think that means? ... This is what Piper is talking about. People that think they are doing things from the right motives, the right attitude, the right faith and spirit, but apparently are deceived and only find out when Christ tells them.

[JHOseven]

This is very interesting.

[6qrents]

You speak much too fast...

:[

[Tyronethe23rd]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me hath everlasting life." John 6:47

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. My belief is real if it causes me to change my behavior and affects the way I live in real life.

It comes down to this: John 6:47 and similar verses that teach assurance of salvation are true or they are lies. I choose to believe that they are true.

[yvieladylee]

The commentator should be an Auctioneer

[yvieladylee]

The commentator should become an auctioneer

[yvieladylee]

The commentator would be a perfect Auctioneer!

[GregShuttleworth]

grow up little Andy.

[dave1122drum]

the only assurance you need is the fact that you genuinely asked christ in to your life. The rest is up to god by grace alone. Then on the judgment day you have something of reference to site namely your request of him. If he rejects you you have a right to say "you didn't finish the job." I wasn't genuine because YOU didn't make me genuine to repent. All the other assurances will always end in doubt.

[stick1to2the3issue]

Piper is right.James talks about how Demons believe in Christ and shudder!THEY ARE NOT GETTING SAVED THO THEY BELIEVE THE SAME FACTS THAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE ABOUT THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST! SAVING FAITH/BELIEF is faith that EMBRACES and TREASURES Christ as the greatest good and trusts in Him! John 3:16 that whosover believeth in Him: this is not referring to the way the demons believe the historical facts of Christ! A belief that doesnt treasure and embrace Christ is not real belief!

[videophobic]

I think assurance is a testimony to our salvation. I no longer have doubts of God's existence or of my salvation and it is due to my assurance. We are told how to see it in others by Paul when he says "you will know them by their fruits." These men (sproul and piper) they do a lot for Christianity. They are still men their words aren't divinely inspired. They might be misguided in some ways. But after reading their writings I researched for myself. That is what the world needs.

[thevinerhyme]

five stars! Absolutely true and fantastic brother. Thanks and Love ya!

[coviepresb1647]

Absolutely false! We have another modern day Michael Servetus with whom you are naively agreeing.

[Live4eternity]

Lutheran? Calvinist? Armanianist?

How about believer of the Way? Pure and simple Christian? Christ follower?

If we're going to label ourselves with these people's names and terms, then we may as well go to the bible. How about Paul the apostle? Surely he was inspired and is one to follow... why don't we just call ourselves Paulinists? but what would he say?  He would say, "Who is Paul?"

This is a bit of a burdon for me.

In Christ,

Jason

[tommie113]

The analogies are pretty weak. In radio announcer analogy, the wife can physically see the evidence, and knows the others to be wrong. In the doubting of salvation situation, they faith because they are struggling with having faith in non-empirical evidence.

[AQuinault]

It's a fair analogy - the 'non empirical' passages (Ro 8:24, 2 Co 4:18, 5:7) are about how hope for things unseen (such as our glorified state) is part of the Christian walk. They don't say we are without empirical basis and assurance for faith (Rom 9:20, Rom 1:19-20). More importantly, Mt 13:14, Jo 12:40 - negatively, lack of faith is compared to lack of perception. Therefore faith is empirical in nature, like sight or hearing, which Andrew's analogy captures.

[AQuinault]

duh, I meant Ro 10:20- 'I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me'

[tommie113]

By empirical I meant that they are attained by the senses, which I don't think is the "manifest" of that passage. A miracle or other manifestation wouldn't count because it takes the eye of faith, given by the Spirit, and is not directly discernable.

[tommie113]

That Jesus was a man would be obvious to all, but that He was the Son of God was not obvious, as that requires the impartation of knowledge not available to man in his natural state. The analogy confuses the former with the latter. The sight people sometimes falter in for a time is the eye of faith.

[CAndiron]

Good point about the apostles. They don't exactly come across as lacking in assurance (Peter succumbed to fear on one occassion, but that's not really lack of assurance).

Or maybe today there are only 'second class Christians' and the apostles were somehow 'first class' and therefore had no doubts?

[crimthann86]

Andy, leave this Calvinist confused rabble right away and become a Lutheran :)