This example is awesome except for the fact that even in flatland, math still exists. People in flatland would know what a 3D object would look like, just as our mathematicians have figured out what a 5D object would look like.
So when he says "this is all there is" he's insinuating that our world is unsatisfying, that it would be upsetting and depressing to learn that no afterlife exists. So basically his argument is this: If you ever have feelings, and if your life isn't perfect, then God must exist. Think about this.
He's trying to make a point, that there is always more! That the scripture is alive, living, and available to all! Look at the totallity of his video, not just a brief tid-bit...leave that to the media. Get out of the 2D mindset and begin to live your life the way a flesh and blood Jesus Christ would have lived...that's the message being told here. Amazing how simple some people are!!
We will be known for how we love one another. We're not known for doctrine, denominational distinctions, being right, or going to church. We are called to love and it's the greatest commandment according to Jesus :)
There may well " be more" to reality as claimed in this video, but this does not mean we should accept the religious claims of Christianity, or any other faith for that matter.
I think any rational individual can easily discover that religions are man made mythologies, but knowing this still leaves the big questions unanswered.
Religion should be the first thing that's discarded when pondering life's real meaning.
@TheLastModernist I agree that orthodox religions are not the answer to find Higher Truth. Anything aimed at the MASSES, will become very watered down and corrupt over time. I tell most religionists to just "Go for the LOVE, and forget the Theology..". I have looked at Mysticism to guide me, and found that there is a lot of Higher Realities that can be EXPERIENCED, and give many insights. Type in Past Lives here on YOUTUBE and NDE's and you can find that there is a Higher Purpose to life..
Logical failure of this presentation is to great to comment in 500 characters. I've seen flat land used to express how difficult it is to perceive 4 dimensions of space and time. I've seen it used to do the same with the 11 dimensions of M-Theory. These are testable concepts. This just pains me, it almost seemed logical, then suddenly *bam* God Did It... The same failure every apologist makes, religion is ILLOGICAL, the bible is FLAWED, meta-physics is USELESS. The stupidity, it hurts.
huh? The "ring" does make itself evident ," If you seek me you will find me"-Jesus-
New reality? Flat land? Mysticism? I do not need evidence from a blog or outside source, your own words ring hollow. You have said nothing productive or meaningful.
This is ridiculous!!! FLAT LAND is called earth. Where does Rob Bell think he lives. I would expect this kind of rhetoric from Charles Manson. Rob BEll lives in a fantasy world where he believes in invisible Gods and monsters. God is supposed to not be the author of CONFUSION according to the bible. If Rob Bell is correct; then his God is a very confusing being, or spirit or whatever Rob Bell wants to pretend his god is. Wake up people and deal with the reality that exists outside your door!
You my friend are an idiot... He's suggesting that there could be a FOURTH dimension, he hasn't gotten to the concept of God, let alone the God of Christianity. The fact is you cannot disregard Christian's view points because there could be something more, he's not debating whether or not the God of the Bible is true but whether or not there is the capacity for Him to exist.
Rob Bell you twist the Word of God to your fiancial advantage Woe to you! The primary Message , the Gist of the Bible is that God wants you with Him in Heaven eternally through his Beloved Son and that we don't need to do anything except accept Jesus and confess Him as Lord God you blasphemous deciever Woe to you! It is a free gift you don't have to do anything even if you are still a sinner Yeshua died for your sins he didn't say ah ok my blood will cover your sins till you're 38 ?
really? ur using flatland to turn over atheists. i cant even wrap my brain aroud how you linked flatland to religion, what a bucherdisation of a theoretic story. i liked it better when Carl Segan explained it.
Welp Rob that was kinda stupid. You know what people like me do when we see weird lines and circles? We find a way to figure out where they came from. We develop arcane mathematics and bizarre, head-breaking theories because we are not satisfied with understanding only what our eyes see. What we don't do is just make shit up, or go with some story some other dude just made up.
OK rob bell, WHERE ARE THE CIRCLES? where is the evidence, even with a 4D or 5D creature we would have evidence, The emporer is god is a strawman, atheist dont believe in anything. WHY JESUS?!?!?!? WHY JUDAISM?!?!?!? congrats on confusing the ignorant. I'm from Grand Rapids, MI and i have serious problems with this man, i would love to talk to him!!!
@fiveoclockpunk The circles in the illustration are the experiences that people from every place on planet earth have had, to one degree or another. Why Jesus? Because for those who have sensed Him, He is real. As real as the dirt beneath our very feet. Everyone at some point begins to suspect there is more to the world than what we're sensing, it's a part of human psychology. Trying to reduce our world to the "flatlands" is dangerous, as it ignores the human experience.
Is your god real? or is he the left side of your brain (the language center). My problem with universalism is that it takes great ideas, and teaches them to sheep. Im all for that, but it LEAVES THE DOORS OF MYTH OPEN, it doesnt destroy the demons of superstition, it merely lets them hide to wait for later. The bible is not the word of god.... give it up! the bible, the torah, and the quaran are dangerous books.
@fiveoclockpunk "Myth" and "demons of superstition" are irrelevant to what is being discussed. These are real experiences. As for whether or not they occur in the brain or somewhere else, I might add all thoughts and experiences are in the brain. It's nonissue. If any experiences are false then perhaps all are. As for the bible is not "the Word of God" I might ask, who says? As Kierkegaard said, all authority is rooted in the consent of an individual, not outward force.
it is pointless. if there is no perceivable way to verify a 3D world because all you can verify a 2D world then why should you pretend to know about a 3D world? How could you if you can't perceive it? You can't and you are not justified to belief it, even though it may be true. We concede that here may be more than material existence but we have no reason to believe anything is nonmaterial unless there is evidence through demonstration.
Copurnicus had a point line line line point moment when he explained how he thought the Earth orbited the Sun instead of the Sun orbiting the Earth. He couldn't prove it he just had an idea. The church burned him alive. It works both ways. Saying I think it was a ring is one thing. Saying I think the ring created flat land and we should worship it is something else.
What I found strange are these militant atheists posters. They're just as wacky and preachy as the traditional Christians! They're going to all these God videos and websites preaching, posting and fighting to the masses that God is bad or God is not there ...God this and God that! It's like these guys are on a frigg'n religious mission! In fact, they're even MORE bossy and talkie than the Christians are! GET A LIFE! Atheist, if it weren't for GOD YOU'D HAVE NOTHING TO DO! What a headache!
Okay good. Now explain why are you're so shocked that people are sharing their opinions on a public forum. Seriously, people are arguing just as much about politics and fashion right now as they are about religion. Calm down.
got to the 2:40 mark before I shut this garbage off, your lives are fine people!, go get some things accomplished and you will feel better about yourself, then tomorrow do some more stuff, you will be better off!
I love how he turns Christianity into something that's boundary-breaking and knowledge-seeking, whereas it is obviously (now) the opposite. There's nothing more rigid, constrained, blind, deaf, and dumb than believing in the absolute certainty of something that one has no plausible grounds for believing in, especially if those beliefs shape and orient all of your pursuits and morals. That's dogma, that's fanaticism, it's irresponsibility.
@Thresholds Wow, you must not have watched this...interesting. It takes a certain perspective, and you have to be able to look at things from more than one!
Yeah, and Christianity has been a big advocate of employing multiple perspectives in our understanding of the world, right? I watched this, I just think it's wrong, historically inaccurate, and just plainly silly. The real lesson he's advocating here is taken from pagans: it's the Platonic allegory of the cave. And the real shadows on the wall are the shadows of God.
Christianity closes horizons, it doesn't open them up.
I don't remember anything being historically inaccurate about this specific segment, but the underlying assumption - i.e., that Christianity is an open and non-dogmatic religion - is "historically inaccurate," unless you want to call things like the inquisition, the crusades, and book and people burning, a welcoming integration and acceptance of multiple perspectives and lifestyles.
@Thresholds Obviously it sure has opened up your horizons - and even given you plenty of warm, fuzzy years of activity! It seems that's what your purpose in life is, to go out into the big 'ol world and fight those darned nasty windmills - opps, I mean God. ....hmmmm, who's the more foolish, the God who is not there or the person who is there, but tries to fight a God who is not there? We get it, you don't like God nor His followers and they're all mean! ...this is so old! >>---------->
Right, I spend all of my time in Quixotic activities of battling Christians on youtube. Thanks for making that ridiculous assumption. May I indulge myself in making a similar assumption about you and conclude that youtube Atheists have provided you with years of activity too? Also, the "fight" isn't against the God who isn't there, but against the people who believe that he is there and then proceed to burn (metaphorically and otherwise) the ones who don't.
This is a flawed model from the start. Let's say for argument sake that the ring does equal God. Given the evidence of "lines," I would argue that an atheist or "aringist" in this world would accept that there was a ring like shape that passed through their world. May not be able to pin down whether it's a tire or a doughnut, but there was certainly a ring. The problem with theists "ringists" in our world is they DON'T have any direct evidence of those lines passing through are world. cont
@Threshingfloor814 Part 2. All they have is one book with indirect conflicting accounts of a ring passing through our world 2000 years ago. So they argue that:
1. You should believe in the ring because you have everything to lose if you don't.
2. The ring revealed itself to me at ringist summer camp back in 1983.
3. 85% of Americans are ringists
4. People had nothing to gain by lying about the ring.
Agree. This is a very poor excuse for a pro-theistic argument. He's done nothing more than speculate. One can speculate all day long, but that proves nothing. It is foolish to elevate "faith", i.e. beliefs not grounded in evidence, to a virtue. Faith is not a virtue. It is an assumption.
If what Bell is sharing is just simple "assumption," why the intense rebuttal? I am wondering if the strength of your responses might indicate there could be something to what he is saying for you. I get the response man. I used to feel the same way but real atheism and agnosticism would give a crap. Maybe the strong response hints that you might want to take a more serious look at what he is representing. in all respect, what if he's right? Only an experience would let u no.
Everyone, as you may not know I have indeed read the bible cover to cover many times. I'm not a psychopath Christian killer nor a "Satan Worshiper" I pride myself in being realistic, seeing things from all possible angles. I'm a good, well educated, peaceful human being. I do however have issues with people who tell others how to live. I do suggest you all take the opportunity to examine yourselves, see if you are judging others blindly, and check over your own lives before you hound on mine.
@cgvtv I honestly can't tell if you are joking.. blinded by satan? The idea of Satan was created to scare people like you into believeing. Christianity is based on fear. You need to pull the wool off from over your eyes, open your eyes and be free of fear don't need you invisible "god" to forgive me. You are a hypocrite, I know you and everyone else are playing the "Who can get the most souls game" It's a lost cause and you are wasting your life and putting your children & partner below "god"
Christians feel threatened because they're scared to live life being unable to blame someone for their mistakes. They fear they've been living a lie their entire lives and can't grasp the idea that they will die just like everyone else and are unable to live on forever.
@frogpollen Thanks for telling me what I think and feel.
Now it's my turn. You are mistaken in your hypothesis because the eyes of your mind have been blinded by Satan, who is the god of this world. You belong to him because you continue to break the commandments of God, this is what the Bible calls sin. You must repent of your sin and forsake it and offer your life to Jesus. Then God will forgive you and you will become a "new creation," a Christian.
Would make perfect sense if Rob here is correct. He presents this perfectly and easly understandable concept of how we might percieve reality if god IS real. However, his point is still dependant on the fact there needs to be a god to fulfill this ring analogy or finger analogy.
The analogy actually make logical sense if he is correct. Problem is....there is no way know if he actuallyis correct in his discussesion. Which proposes the question: why should I trust faith?
Good video, helps open the mind. Regardless if you put stock in believing any of it or portions, that really does't matter. Often its thinkers on the edge/beyond what humans just take for granted daily that help society learn something new about itself or the universe around us. Rob does this in a very easy to follow process. I've only watched him on YT, and so far i've not really been disappointed with any of his work..i may disagree with some things...but all in all he opens doors.
@hexusziggurat wow... opens the mind? christans are close minded. I was raised a pastors kid my entire life, i have never met so many rude, selfish, ignorant people in my life
Hmmm I don't know if its the Christians or simply the people that congregated together that you experienced as a child. Labelling all Christians "close-minded" would have to mean you traveled to all countries everywhere &/or witnessed/documented the nature of ALL Christians. Much too broad a paintstroke to say such things. We know Christ, & such actions are in transgression to Christianity.
This is a great idea! Think about it, whenever we encounter something that we don't understand we should say 'God dunnit'. This is going to save a lot of time conducting pesky research to discover the nature of unexplained phenomena. We now have the answers to everything!
I was really hoping for something new with the contemporary and scholarly look to the presentation but it is the same old same old.
Philosophically arguable? Definitely. I can see why there may be the possibility of God's existence(unless one is referring to a specific concept. E.g. Abrahamic religions). However, "Lucifer overthrowing Yahweh after an epic standoff and tricking Christians into worshiping him", can pretty much be just as credible if we were to follow his line of reasoning. Maybe I should join the "brain the vat" religion, because intuition is enough for something to be true.
@pockmarkedbuttocks In all honesty, buttocks, are are an extremely immature individual (hence your name), and trust me when I say "you will never even be close to be able to pack his lunch". "Twerp"??? That is your best adjective to describe him? After you get your GED you may learn more demonstrative adjectives.
Rob is a once in a generation type person, along the lines of Billy Graham and Charles Stanley. Learn from this genius.
@rlkavan - ok Mr Sheople, this guy is not a true Christian nor is he a pastor, he's a high priest of the EmergentChurch Cult, which is nothing more than simple, silly Arminian Free Will Works-Salvation Catholicism. I've read Velvet Elvis AND SexGod - and the guy is saying nuthin' bout nuthin'. He is complete bullsh*t! I can hear better stuff from Wayne Dyer.
@pockmarkedbuttocks As your screen name sugests, you sir are a LOSER. Nuthin from nuthin???? Need to focus on getting the GED a little faster there buddy. Try reading those two books again, but this extricate your head from your pockedmarkedbuttocks first.
@rlkavan - No, you're the loser since you use nothing but ad hominen fallacies to insult me. Rob Bell is no Christian, as no true disciple of Jesus Christ would even suggest that our Lord had a human father named Larry ( like he did in 'Velvet Elvis') If you want to follow modern day false teachers than enjoy your NIV, Nooma videos, and Brian McClaren apostasy. You have absolutely NO discernment in these matters...and you're a moronic douche too ;->
@pockmarkedbuttocks And yet you call this guy a "moronic douche" AND claim to know the eternal destiny of one of God's children? Sounds like a large heap of double standard to me. Just saying. Don't make us look bad, man. Show some love. May I ask, do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ?
@rlkavan It’s really respectful to look down upon those with a GED. Neither of my parents finished High School, I encouraged them to get their GED. I want them to be successful in their lives, now they are buying a house and have great jobs. The GED is a great opportunity for those who need a second chance in receiving and education. Do us all a favor, think before you speak.
Well I guess If I was 5 year old and someone drummed this bullshit into me, I guess I would believe you too.
No doubt there is more that we have yet to understand and learn, but I see absolutely no reason to believe in Rah, or Zeus, or any of the thousands of other supernatural beings that your thinking leads you to.
If there was such a being, don't you think there would be no doubt and we would all believe in it/him/her/whatever.
For an obviously intelligent person you are a disgrace.
Your'e taking it too literally, I believe the ring and the fingers are symbolic. But you do demonstrate well the 'unenlightened' 2d people who attempt to explain everything with reason.
I think it's notable that Atheists keep coming back to listen to apoligetics... you'd think if they were really SURE of their beliefs that they would have better things to do.
BUT: The truth is WAY DEEP DOWN they want to believe in God, and to know Him, because that's what they were created for - though they vehemently deny it.
This allegory don't proves the existence of Christ, it only gives us a think about the supposed existence of some sort of divine being. It just makes stronger the fact that faith is based in suppositions, and this can apply to ANY god, spirit, ghost, alien, etc.
Don't be fooled by nice words that try too hard to sound like physics and phylosophy.
Al final del video le dan color y sugieren que todo fue un argumento que valida a la existencia de un Dios, pero simplemente se puede (o no) aplicar a CUALQUIER Dios, ya que ninguno tiene bases (como el mismo video explica) que den realidad a la aseveración. No deja de ser fe, y la fe es creencia ciega en lo que claramente no existe.
Quizás es una buena metáfora, pero nada más. Es muy básica. Puede caer en su propio juego. Solo palabras bonitas y extrañas fingiendo que son filosofía y física avanzadas.
I grow weary of atheists claiming that religion is the most destructive force in the world. Nationalism, that is, patriotism and people invested in tribal nationalistic ideologies, have caused more violence in the last century that religion has in all history. The spanish inquisition claimed the lives of 12,000 people in 10 years and Stalin's athiestic dictatorship claimed the lives of (on the low end of guessing) 30,000,000 lives. Religion isn't perfect, but it is not the greatest delusion.
@andcumba123 - The bible is a book of "stories". Which a human with the intellect of a child would believe....
If you want to break through to ppl and their modern minds of today to deliver a message, you need to stay far away from a book that tells you about a talking snake, an ark like structure and a man who beat thousands to death with a donkey's jaw bone. If you believe the tales of the bible happend and are true,then you obviously still believe in Santa Clause.
There is no God. There is undeniably a God. There is only emptiness. There is only Everything. There only is. You can make everything as complicated as you want it to be, or as simple as you want it to be. Don't look at the apparent contradictions (there are no contradictions only confusion) only look at what is, we are all looking at the same thing I don't know how we all got so confused about that. If you made it up, it came from the world; respect the world.See past the lies you tell yourself
Cute, but ultimately futile allegory, especially since most of the people with "great power invested" in maintaining the status quo were religious figures of some sort. And most of the enlightened souls were threatening their power.
All the pretty stories in the world can't change the fact that religion is nothing more or less than a corrupt, out-dated system for controlling poor desperate people by giving them false hope.
@sumstew it would actually, if the ring is passing through the board, once the first part of the ring has passed through only the two 'arms' of the ring would be touching the board, and they would be unconnected so would appear as two lines. I was confused at first too then worked it out
Ignoring for a moment the problems with his analogy that ive already pointed out, it still doesnt address why we should worship a god who supports slavery and rape (its supported in the bible)
Its cute how he's assembled some sort of lecture and got a sqeaky board and everything, trying to pretend to be just like one of the college intellectual elite. And commandeering an allegory that attacks victorian sexisim AND the church and inflating it to his own purposes no less!
1 Ok, so you got a metaphor. But a metaphor is ONLY a metaphor if it lacks any evidence to tie it to the real world and the lack of any hyperpheres passing through space in all of recorded human history kinda leads one to beg the question.
2This analogy suffers the same problems that the Kalam cosmological argument, the TAG arguement, and Pascal's wager has. It merely presents the MAYBE of a god but makes zero headway isolating it as the christian god over any of the other tons of choices.
@OsyenVyeter sounds like you are responding to 'proof text' christians.The whole testimony of the bible is the guide, not just a single text. The whole picture points in a different direction: overwhelmingly against violence and slavery. over and over in those 'patriarchal' laws, we are told to look after the weak.
btw, he IS intellectual elite. top of class, multiple degrees, languages, etc, etc. I could say 'it's cute' how you're name-dropping phil arguments, but it would be ad hominem ;)
Wait this guy is smart you say? Possibly smart enough to use a prefabricated indoctrination system to swindle hundreds of people out of their hard earned money each week?
Intelligence does not prove or even indicate intent, nor does it guaranty the accuracy of the intellectual's statements.
Before I give up my free will, my money and my absolute loathing for all that religion has done in this world you had better SHOW me god so I can cock slap him and tell him he's fired.
You have some major flaws in your logic here buddy.
It's highly ironic that you would say believers of God are the ones saying "This isn't all there is". Because that's actually exactly what they're saying and scientists have been the ones all along who have been stretching our knowledge even into new actual dimensions.
A universe with the Christian god is a geocentric world of fixed morality and limited purpose. This isn't all there is.
this is great but it does not proof that another dimentions exist and even if - there's same possibility of pruple rhinos masturbating onto our dimention than a marcyful god who has a real cool plan of our salvation from his poorly written story.
Flatlander could metaphorically describe any perspective other than complete enlightenment - which presumably doesn't bother with fookin object'subject divide... assumption of form independent of observer. Kunts! If you're straight, try gay sex today. If you're a gay man. Fook a babe with massive knockers.
Flatlander could metaphorically describe any perspective other than complete enlightenment - which presumably doesn't bother with fookin object'subject divide... assumption of form independent of observer. Kunts! If you're straight, try gay sex today. If you're a gay man. Fook a babe with massive knockers.
fook me! athiests are more religious than religionists. The Kunts! Wat fookin appears reasonable is bleedin manipulated to lead to a certain vantage point. fookin truth is within not fookin within the realm of conceptual shit. fookin slow your brain waves down leave your body and go find out. Fookers
the hypocricy of this video starting with the 2 stick figures is disgusting. Producers of this video and those of you that nod your heads to this hypocrite though he makes obsolutely no relative argument to atheism have no ethics.
let me see if I got this right. the ''flat land'' ideologist (atheist) shoots down the ''enlightened '' theist. Uhmmmm nooo .history/reality tells us that it is actually the opposite ... but lets not battle over common sense. Theists = enlightened? really?hahaha
The people that respond negative to this video are just intellectually bankrupt. It just comes to show how people won't try to see anything beyond the realms of their minds, and their five senses. In my experiences, i have found that atheists just lack any kind of imagination. Because what rob bell is talking about is perspective and point of view.
@Killer0fTheSun Oh sure there is plenty of evidence, but you won't consider it "evidence." Keep in mind, science does believe in things that have no "evidence" what so ever. The oscillating universe theory, the infinite parallel universe theory, dark matter, string theory, and the list goes on. Their just mathematical constructs, that try to provide explanation of the universe through indirect means -- ie dark matter. That means you have faith that dark matter exists.
Actually no....take a gander at CRESST experiments and the XENON dark matter projects. As for empirical evidence for the claims of god i'd be glad to hear them.
I think that your missing the whole point of these. That is these, we can not see the whole work of God, and creation can not fully understand the creator.
Your are right he is a good speaker, but it would be way better if he uses the bible to teach. Because I think that we can better understand when we let Gods work talk.
@andcubma123 If people are missing Bell's point here surely it's down to either
1/ their inability
or else
2/ their refusal to recognise parables?
This form of teaching is quite consistant with scripture (Old and New testament)even if "...hearing they do not hear..."
While I think Bell could have easily tied this in with "the pearl of great price" parable, doing so would not give him any more credence in the minds of those who do not already love scripture.
@andcubma123 perhaps he is trying to appeal to people who do not respect the Bible? To get somebody to cross the bridge into theism, you cannot point to the evidence that they most despise but instead cross the bridge yourself into their world & talk to them in ways they appreciate & understand...when they realize you are much like them then it is more apparent that they can come to trust your methods...etc
It's not that all atheists would claim that "there's nothing more", atheists would claim that you DON'T know what it is, even if there IS something more. "Feeling" and "believing" is not a reliable methodology for determining what is true or real. The argument with the ring is flawed because you start with the knowlege of what the "more" actually is-- in this case, a 3-dimensional object that we call a ring.
His argument is flawed because he starts with knowlege of what a ring is, and that the object is, in fact, a ring. It's also flawed because things appearing out of nowhere is not something that is observed in our reality.
point line line line line point gone is more than I've experienced of god... They saw the ring, I've never seen god. Horrible analogy and a waste of my fucking time.
Father you said that if Jesus is lifted up he will draw all men to himself. Lord I claim that for all who read this and are unable to lift themselves or Jesus up. I lift them up to you. And I pray that the seed you planted in them long before the foundations of the world were laid becomes activated. In the name of the resurrected Christ. Amen.
I don't know if this speech was designed to "stick it to the athiests" and call them "stuck in flatland" but to invite them to look at things another way. We know that for the flatland guy has the best argument in terms of anything visible and provable. It's about asking the question, "What if there is more then what we can test, taste, touch, feel, see, smell, hear?" "What if there is more to what we see?" It's about inviting people to try and view it from the "illogical" perspective.
I don't know if this speech was designed to "stick it to the athiests" and call them "stuck in flatland" but to invite them to look at things another way. We know that for the flatland guy has the best argument in terms of anything visible and provable. It's about asking the question, "What if there is more then what we can test, taste, touch, feel, see, smell, hear?" "What if there is more to what we see?" It's about inviting people to try and view it from the "illogical" perspective.
What is the one consistent thing science & understanding has done throughout history? It has exposed superstition for what it is, which is believing that the things we don't understand are caused by magic! And gods were/are magic to primitive, uneducated man. My ancestors used to believe a god pushed the sun across the sky everyday. The scientific study of nature dispelled these superstitions.
What has ever been studied & in our reality & found to be caused by magic, or a god?
He's got a flare for the dramatic, don't he? Too bad it fails!
Again, he needs to demonstrate it!! What he's really trying to say is that what he thinks is experiencing god, is eventually found to be explained as something else. (and btw, they wouldn't his fingers as circles, but horizontal lines)!
He's under the misapprehension that atheists live in flatland. I've spent a half century experiencing different aspects of spirituality. My position now does not come from any flatland, I assure you.
@bigwhammyRocks i2Black1 The Hebrew name for G-d when translated means I am that I am, and I will be what I will be. He is The Great I am.. The Force that causes all to exist, and yet He has a personality, He speaks to us, and gives us guidance, through messengers and signs. We just have to allow ourselves to have eyes that see and ears that hear. Blessings my friend
@PostITnoteGUY Nobody knows what is truly out there. In all honesty nobody knows. Real Christians believe because they have "felt" (just like Rob Bell was describing) something out there and trust in that because the "feeling" that Christians get for the most part changes their entire lives for the better. If it's better why not believe in it?
To clarify, in this analogy, 3-D =- supernatural; there is no evidence for supernatural 3-D rings (intercessory prayer, angels, gods, miracles, etc.). In my improved analogy, 3-D = naturalism that is counterintuitive; we have tons of evidence for counterintuitive, natural 3-D rings (round earth vs. flat earth; heliocentrism, wave-particle duality; relativity theory, quantum mechanics, evolution by natural selection, etc., etc. etc.).
This would be a good analogy, if one could observe the effects of rings, hands, or other 3-D objects interacting with our 2-D world. We don't; this is where the analogy fails.
OTOH, this analogy works if it is the Xian that insists that the world is 2-D because all of his intuitive and rational "commonsense" tells him that a 3-D world doesn't exist, while the scientist has empirical, rational, counterintuitive evidence of a 3-D world (rings, hands, etc.). NOW the analogy succeeds.
We western people have too much time for words. It's so boring to read these discussions. Go and feed some hungry person! Doesn't matter which side you're on! If Jesus exists He will say to you enter the kingdom because you feeded me when I was hungry. If He doesn't exists you've done something good. So why fight each other? Do something good together and feel the blessing of doing that!
I hope there comes a day were Christians will stop losing too much time in defending God... I hope there comes a day in which the love of the real Christians (and not those nasty and aggressive arrogant that think they're the best) will speak louder than words. God will never be proved with words, never, and neither the opposite.
So what if the 'reductionist', instead of saying there's no way to test these claims, starts observing other objects, and the next time he sees a ring, tries to 'catch' it by sticking a finger in between the lines? In flatland too, claims can be tested.
And even if that weren't true, imagining a world in which someone is right about something he doesn't have proof of, doesn't mean you're right about other stuff you don't have proof of.
He's trying his best to match the hypnotic cadence of Carl Sagan's delivery, to essentially say the same pseudo-scientific-sounding stuff, and his uneducated audience thinks he brings an original christian perspective from his own 'vast' intellect. Whereas, a well-rounded, educated, slightly older person would recognize this as recycled nerdspeak from the 80's... I would respect the effort, if I wasn't put off by his warped, universalist theology. Rob Bell has no point. He loves his own voice.
@LouSkannin@LouSkannin Seriously. I agree with you. Rob Bell is even trying to TALK like Carl Sagan. Used to be we respected preachers who knew Jesus. Turns out, this retread is more into "recycling" than we thought! Except, this time we are rehashing used science-fiction from an ATHEIST in the 1980's. Look up Carl Sagan Dimensions on youtube.
Since humans were competent enough to fathom the idea of life after death, it has so been desired. Do you think, because all you know is driven by logic, that you have it all figured out? That notion is insane. We can all rest easy saying, there's no way we can know, but maybe, just MAYBE, if we spread love, and give to someone who's dying without choice, that that very progress is divine. So, live to the fullest, go bungee jumping! But acknowledge that someone is suffering, and you could help.
& now arises the "It's inhumane to tell people all the religious bull, because there's only one life to live, and they should live it to the fullest". Tell me, what's living life to the fullest when every night going to sleep, you're fully aware that the next day will be the doppelganger of this one, with no food, no parents, just hell on earth for this one being. You see, this faith, it's universal, it's not just with Christianity, or Muslims, or Jews, or Buddhists or Pagans.
Ah, Atheists and their silver-tongues. Do you really fret that much when you hear a competent christian speak? Really, do you burn with the desire to shout from the rooftops "THERE IS NO GOD!!" It's futile, put logic aside, and think of human emotion.. 90% of humans would like to know that life continues ensuing death, now I know for certain when a missionary tells a starving African child who has lost both parents, that there is more.. That they will believe within their hearts.
So reality doesn`t count any more. If people feel happy, lies or no longer lies, fantasy is no longer fantasy. People should be able to face reality: Dead is dead.
@lizazoon You don't know what is truly classified as "fantasy". All you know is what you see, and the notion that our consciousness simply clicks off after death is just as likely as consciousness continuing. You are just as oblivious as any other human on this mysterious little ball. It's easy to face reality when reality is a breeze, how insensitive and condescending. Reality is harsh, and there's nothing we can do about it, accept "fantasize" according to you.
@MarkToTheSky --and the notion that our consciousness simply clicks off after death is just as likely as consciousness continuing.--
NO, that`s pure speculation. There is not a shred of evidence for the continuation of consciouness. Those who make an extraordinary claim, have the burden of proof.
& what's the proof that consciousness ceases to exist? Because we decompose? There's not a shred of anything that would prove either, & this was my previous statement in the first place. You don't know, and you'll never know, so why tell anyone their wrong? We as conscious beings, are incapable of knowing. Because someone wants to play it safe and live virtuously, does not mean you take up the duty of telling them their faith is false. Because you have no warrant of truth behind you. sorry.
@MarkToTheSky You make an extraordinary claim, that consciousness lives on. Prove it. It`s as simple as that. If you accept eveything without a shred of evidence, than everything is possible and acceptable.
Except the flatlanders are debating empirical occurrences whereas Theists vs Atheists are debating the origins of empirical occurrences. One side can use Empiricism the whole way through and the knowledge is applicable in industry and everyday life. The other side injects the supernatural when it's not needed and the supernatural is useless in daily life (to create, manufacture etc) Occams razor....
The key to understanding Jesus is to understand that the world in which he came was broken. He came to a place in which bad things happened to good people. He came to bring a choice. You can choose to live the way you are, hurting people or you can choose HIs way. The belief that there is more to this world than what you see. Jesus gave us one gift, the ability to judge ourselves against the standards upon which we will ultimately be judged. To understanding the gift u must read it. GRACE
Its terrible what Rob Bell is suggesting what is an acceptable way of thinking. Just imagine if sociality actually used it!
Hes saying that if you see something that you don't understand. It's ok to use faith to assume what that something is. It's ok to built your life around what you think that something is.
For example, If i saw a figure in the sky I haven't seen before or i don't understand. With his rationality I could say that it is a an alien space craft!
The only possible honest answer is "I don't know if god/gods exist." There simply not enough know to make a decision that there is something else to existence, or in this case outside of existence.
If the only possible answer is "don't know" then the only possible honest position to take up is that of the agnostic atheist. This being that there is no way of even knowing anything about an infinite, limitless being. Even the smallest concept of such a being is beyond human awareness.
The irony is that in a way we do live in "flatland" but physics can define many more dimensions than humans experience without resorting to using "a feeling".
Lacking the evidence to support the existence of a deity, the god of the gaps will hopefully become marginalised in my lifetime.
@tosspotovich - I also hope the God of the gaps dissappears and simply God remains. I hope believers stop trying to demonstrate God is real, He doesn't need us to do that. Christians should bother about loving more than proofing.
Imagine the oppossite of what you hope happens and that physiscs actually discover the dimension of God! That would be so great because we would share such an awesome experience that is Gods love for u and me.
If there is a god I hope it doesn't bear a resemblance to any of the morally reprehensible deities invented by humans. The Christian version is one of the worst.
Please help me to understand what you mean. Explain what is so terrible about Jesus. It's easy to criticize christians. 1st they're humans so they make mistakes. 2nd you can find wolves with sheep clothes saying things in the name of God.
But tell me something wrong about Jesus and then we can have a serious dialogue.
Well he did advocate slavery and child abuse but I was actually referring to Yahweh in the Bible. For those that believe they are one and the same, Jesus was worse than Hitler.
Could you please specify in which part of scriptures you have found that Jesus advocates slavery and child abuse? Without specific details I can't understand your statement.
In my point of view Yahweh of the old testament was a primitive conception of God and through Jesus we have come to know God better. Any concept of a cruel God found is an incomplete and primitive knowledge. In christianity, anything that contradicts Jesus, must be profoundly studied in order to be understood.
I'm no Bible scholar but these are easily found online... Child murder Matthew 15:4 Mark 7:5-10 Child neglect Matthew 19:29 Slavery Luke 12:42-48 Surely the new testament is only slightly less primitive than the old testament. Anyway, Jesus endorsed the old testament Matthew 5:18-19
When u read the Bible there is one elemmentary thing you have to do: reading in context and not out of context.
Mathew 15:4 Jesus is not advocating child murder, he's criticizing pharisees for being hypocrites comparing that verse with another one. Children loved Jesus! Mark 10:14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Lets look to Matthew 19:29- This is a harsh one for me too! I think it's an emphasis that God must be put first.
Luke 12:42 - Jesus is not agreeing he is describing a very common situation a t that time and using it to tell a story!
Finally Mathew 5:18 - This is a complex one. But remember, Jesus broke the sabbath because of love, he said to love your enemies, he touched unclean woman... Against the law.
i don't get it. this must be why religion is just so "wtf" for me. flat land people? like when people thought the world was flight but through science we realized the truth?
I like to say sorry, i did not know you were a girl, forgive me cupacke, i find u rather attractive are u single cupcake? i wud quit my religion for u :P
This example is awesome except for the fact that even in flatland, math still exists. People in flatland would know what a 3D object would look like, just as our mathematicians have figured out what a 5D object would look like.
AreaCode000 1 month ago
@AreaCode000 hmmm wondering how i would feel if i saw a 5d object floating around
mjoraid 1 month ago
So when he says "this is all there is" he's insinuating that our world is unsatisfying, that it would be upsetting and depressing to learn that no afterlife exists. So basically his argument is this: If you ever have feelings, and if your life isn't perfect, then God must exist. Think about this.
evans387 2 months ago
He's trying to make a point, that there is always more! That the scripture is alive, living, and available to all! Look at the totallity of his video, not just a brief tid-bit...leave that to the media. Get out of the 2D mindset and begin to live your life the way a flesh and blood Jesus Christ would have lived...that's the message being told here. Amazing how simple some people are!!
LGarms 3 months ago
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We will be known for how we love one another. We're not known for doctrine, denominational distinctions, being right, or going to church. We are called to love and it's the greatest commandment according to Jesus :)
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 3 months ago
It should say Rob Bell of "Mars Hill BIBLE Church." The other Mars Hill is the one in Seattle that isn't confused and doesn't think Jesus was a liar.
cats9900 4 months ago
Could have used the A-ha 'Take on Me' video as an analogy... LOL!
WotchDis 5 months ago
There may well " be more" to reality as claimed in this video, but this does not mean we should accept the religious claims of Christianity, or any other faith for that matter.
I think any rational individual can easily discover that religions are man made mythologies, but knowing this still leaves the big questions unanswered.
Religion should be the first thing that's discarded when pondering life's real meaning.
TheLastModernist 5 months ago
@TheLastModernist I agree that orthodox religions are not the answer to find Higher Truth. Anything aimed at the MASSES, will become very watered down and corrupt over time. I tell most religionists to just "Go for the LOVE, and forget the Theology..". I have looked at Mysticism to guide me, and found that there is a lot of Higher Realities that can be EXPERIENCED, and give many insights. Type in Past Lives here on YOUTUBE and NDE's and you can find that there is a Higher Purpose to life..
moranplano 2 months ago
@moranplano Before you get to cocky over your religious counterparts, I'd suggest that you do a re-assessment of your own beliefs.
You would do well to read up on the scientific evidence for NDE's, and stop taking at face value the people who claim to have lived before.
TheLastModernist 2 months ago
Atheism Exposed
ryourhm 6 months ago
Logical failure of this presentation is to great to comment in 500 characters. I've seen flat land used to express how difficult it is to perceive 4 dimensions of space and time. I've seen it used to do the same with the 11 dimensions of M-Theory. These are testable concepts. This just pains me, it almost seemed logical, then suddenly *bam* God Did It... The same failure every apologist makes, religion is ILLOGICAL, the bible is FLAWED, meta-physics is USELESS. The stupidity, it hurts.
savesonfuel 7 months ago
People who leave hate comment....on Videos obviously talking about God...probably are seeking more....or have too much time on their hands
JJVIndustries 7 months ago
huh? The "ring" does make itself evident ," If you seek me you will find me"-Jesus-
New reality? Flat land? Mysticism? I do not need evidence from a blog or outside source, your own words ring hollow. You have said nothing productive or meaningful.
patandkatesma 7 months ago
This is so ridiculous it hurts.
rikay250 7 months ago
This is ridiculous!!! FLAT LAND is called earth. Where does Rob Bell think he lives. I would expect this kind of rhetoric from Charles Manson. Rob BEll lives in a fantasy world where he believes in invisible Gods and monsters. God is supposed to not be the author of CONFUSION according to the bible. If Rob Bell is correct; then his God is a very confusing being, or spirit or whatever Rob Bell wants to pretend his god is. Wake up people and deal with the reality that exists outside your door!
2010Jhoward 8 months ago
@2010Jhoward
You my friend are an idiot... He's suggesting that there could be a FOURTH dimension, he hasn't gotten to the concept of God, let alone the God of Christianity. The fact is you cannot disregard Christian's view points because there could be something more, he's not debating whether or not the God of the Bible is true but whether or not there is the capacity for Him to exist.
Your density truly astounds me.
itskragus 5 months ago
Preach the Gospel!!!
joeforHistruth 9 months ago
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Rob Bell you twist the Word of God to your fiancial advantage Woe to you! The primary Message , the Gist of the Bible is that God wants you with Him in Heaven eternally through his Beloved Son and that we don't need to do anything except accept Jesus and confess Him as Lord God you blasphemous deciever Woe to you! It is a free gift you don't have to do anything even if you are still a sinner Yeshua died for your sins he didn't say ah ok my blood will cover your sins till you're 38 ?
babyboqboq 9 months ago
really? ur using flatland to turn over atheists. i cant even wrap my brain aroud how you linked flatland to religion, what a bucherdisation of a theoretic story. i liked it better when Carl Segan explained it.
ptwob 9 months ago
Weakest Argument Ever.
justonefyx 9 months ago
I have faith that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is what is more.
RAmen.
Dafariii 9 months ago
Welp Rob that was kinda stupid. You know what people like me do when we see weird lines and circles? We find a way to figure out where they came from. We develop arcane mathematics and bizarre, head-breaking theories because we are not satisfied with understanding only what our eyes see. What we don't do is just make shit up, or go with some story some other dude just made up.
Morilore 9 months ago
OK rob bell, WHERE ARE THE CIRCLES? where is the evidence, even with a 4D or 5D creature we would have evidence, The emporer is god is a strawman, atheist dont believe in anything. WHY JESUS?!?!?!? WHY JUDAISM?!?!?!? congrats on confusing the ignorant. I'm from Grand Rapids, MI and i have serious problems with this man, i would love to talk to him!!!
fiveoclockpunk 9 months ago
@fiveoclockpunk The circles in the illustration are the experiences that people from every place on planet earth have had, to one degree or another. Why Jesus? Because for those who have sensed Him, He is real. As real as the dirt beneath our very feet. Everyone at some point begins to suspect there is more to the world than what we're sensing, it's a part of human psychology. Trying to reduce our world to the "flatlands" is dangerous, as it ignores the human experience.
AuxentiusZ 9 months ago
@AuxentiusZ
Is your god real? or is he the left side of your brain (the language center). My problem with universalism is that it takes great ideas, and teaches them to sheep. Im all for that, but it LEAVES THE DOORS OF MYTH OPEN, it doesnt destroy the demons of superstition, it merely lets them hide to wait for later. The bible is not the word of god.... give it up! the bible, the torah, and the quaran are dangerous books.
fiveoclockpunk 9 months ago
@fiveoclockpunk "Myth" and "demons of superstition" are irrelevant to what is being discussed. These are real experiences. As for whether or not they occur in the brain or somewhere else, I might add all thoughts and experiences are in the brain. It's nonissue. If any experiences are false then perhaps all are. As for the bible is not "the Word of God" I might ask, who says? As Kierkegaard said, all authority is rooted in the consent of an individual, not outward force.
AuxentiusZ 9 months ago
Wow, he just went to great lengths to not at all prove that "there's more".
alphaenemy 9 months ago
Good job. I read "Flatland" in high school, too.
RangiandPapa 10 months ago
it is pointless. if there is no perceivable way to verify a 3D world because all you can verify a 2D world then why should you pretend to know about a 3D world? How could you if you can't perceive it? You can't and you are not justified to belief it, even though it may be true. We concede that here may be more than material existence but we have no reason to believe anything is nonmaterial unless there is evidence through demonstration.
danielkyleh 10 months ago
Copurnicus had a point line line line point moment when he explained how he thought the Earth orbited the Sun instead of the Sun orbiting the Earth. He couldn't prove it he just had an idea. The church burned him alive. It works both ways. Saying I think it was a ring is one thing. Saying I think the ring created flat land and we should worship it is something else.
discodanser2000 10 months ago
I like how this feels like a TED talk.
michaelgj23 10 months ago
lawl
thaobama 10 months ago
What I found strange are these militant atheists posters. They're just as wacky and preachy as the traditional Christians! They're going to all these God videos and websites preaching, posting and fighting to the masses that God is bad or God is not there ...God this and God that! It's like these guys are on a frigg'n religious mission! In fact, they're even MORE bossy and talkie than the Christians are! GET A LIFE! Atheist, if it weren't for GOD YOU'D HAVE NOTHING TO DO! What a headache!
surearrow 10 months ago
@surearrow You know what an opinion is, right?
Okay good. Now explain why are you're so shocked that people are sharing their opinions on a public forum. Seriously, people are arguing just as much about politics and fashion right now as they are about religion. Calm down.
jussts 10 months ago
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surearrow 10 months ago
got to the 2:40 mark before I shut this garbage off, your lives are fine people!, go get some things accomplished and you will feel better about yourself, then tomorrow do some more stuff, you will be better off!
hatetobreakittoyou 10 months ago
I love how he turns Christianity into something that's boundary-breaking and knowledge-seeking, whereas it is obviously (now) the opposite. There's nothing more rigid, constrained, blind, deaf, and dumb than believing in the absolute certainty of something that one has no plausible grounds for believing in, especially if those beliefs shape and orient all of your pursuits and morals. That's dogma, that's fanaticism, it's irresponsibility.
Thresholds 11 months ago
@Thresholds Wow, you must not have watched this...interesting. It takes a certain perspective, and you have to be able to look at things from more than one!
andysj531 11 months ago
@andysj531
Yeah, and Christianity has been a big advocate of employing multiple perspectives in our understanding of the world, right? I watched this, I just think it's wrong, historically inaccurate, and just plainly silly. The real lesson he's advocating here is taken from pagans: it's the Platonic allegory of the cave. And the real shadows on the wall are the shadows of God.
Christianity closes horizons, it doesn't open them up.
Thresholds 11 months ago
@Thresholds
How does Christianity "close horizons"? Any specific examples?
blahblahblahman 10 months ago
@blahblahblahman
Yes, my examples even have names. They are called Galileo, Giordano Bruno, Kepler, Copernicus, Descartes, Spinoza. More?
Thresholds 10 months ago
@Thresholds
Also, what is "historically inaccurate" about this presentation?
blahblahblahman 10 months ago
@blahblahblahman
I don't remember anything being historically inaccurate about this specific segment, but the underlying assumption - i.e., that Christianity is an open and non-dogmatic religion - is "historically inaccurate," unless you want to call things like the inquisition, the crusades, and book and people burning, a welcoming integration and acceptance of multiple perspectives and lifestyles.
Thresholds 10 months ago
@Thresholds Obviously it sure has opened up your horizons - and even given you plenty of warm, fuzzy years of activity! It seems that's what your purpose in life is, to go out into the big 'ol world and fight those darned nasty windmills - opps, I mean God. ....hmmmm, who's the more foolish, the God who is not there or the person who is there, but tries to fight a God who is not there? We get it, you don't like God nor His followers and they're all mean! ...this is so old! >>---------->
surearrow 10 months ago
@surearrow
Right, I spend all of my time in Quixotic activities of battling Christians on youtube. Thanks for making that ridiculous assumption. May I indulge myself in making a similar assumption about you and conclude that youtube Atheists have provided you with years of activity too? Also, the "fight" isn't against the God who isn't there, but against the people who believe that he is there and then proceed to burn (metaphorically and otherwise) the ones who don't.
Thresholds 10 months ago
This is a flawed model from the start. Let's say for argument sake that the ring does equal God. Given the evidence of "lines," I would argue that an atheist or "aringist" in this world would accept that there was a ring like shape that passed through their world. May not be able to pin down whether it's a tire or a doughnut, but there was certainly a ring. The problem with theists "ringists" in our world is they DON'T have any direct evidence of those lines passing through are world. cont
Threshingfloor814 11 months ago
@Threshingfloor814 Part 2. All they have is one book with indirect conflicting accounts of a ring passing through our world 2000 years ago. So they argue that:
1. You should believe in the ring because you have everything to lose if you don't.
2. The ring revealed itself to me at ringist summer camp back in 1983.
3. 85% of Americans are ringists
4. People had nothing to gain by lying about the ring.
5. Sir Isaac Newton believed in the ring.
You get the point.
Threshingfloor814 11 months ago
@Threshingfloor814
Agree. This is a very poor excuse for a pro-theistic argument. He's done nothing more than speculate. One can speculate all day long, but that proves nothing. It is foolish to elevate "faith", i.e. beliefs not grounded in evidence, to a virtue. Faith is not a virtue. It is an assumption.
craigblack1234 11 months ago
@Threshingfloor814 +our
Threshingfloor814 11 months ago
@Threshingfloor814
If what Bell is sharing is just simple "assumption," why the intense rebuttal? I am wondering if the strength of your responses might indicate there could be something to what he is saying for you. I get the response man. I used to feel the same way but real atheism and agnosticism would give a crap. Maybe the strong response hints that you might want to take a more serious look at what he is representing. in all respect, what if he's right? Only an experience would let u no.
DrBlackPuppy 11 months ago
Everyone, as you may not know I have indeed read the bible cover to cover many times. I'm not a psychopath Christian killer nor a "Satan Worshiper" I pride myself in being realistic, seeing things from all possible angles. I'm a good, well educated, peaceful human being. I do however have issues with people who tell others how to live. I do suggest you all take the opportunity to examine yourselves, see if you are judging others blindly, and check over your own lives before you hound on mine.
frogpollen 1 year ago
@cgvtv I honestly can't tell if you are joking.. blinded by satan? The idea of Satan was created to scare people like you into believeing. Christianity is based on fear. You need to pull the wool off from over your eyes, open your eyes and be free of fear don't need you invisible "god" to forgive me. You are a hypocrite, I know you and everyone else are playing the "Who can get the most souls game" It's a lost cause and you are wasting your life and putting your children & partner below "god"
frogpollen 1 year ago
Christians feel threatened because they're scared to live life being unable to blame someone for their mistakes. They fear they've been living a lie their entire lives and can't grasp the idea that they will die just like everyone else and are unable to live on forever.
frogpollen 1 year ago
@frogpollen Thanks for telling me what I think and feel.
Now it's my turn. You are mistaken in your hypothesis because the eyes of your mind have been blinded by Satan, who is the god of this world. You belong to him because you continue to break the commandments of God, this is what the Bible calls sin. You must repent of your sin and forsake it and offer your life to Jesus. Then God will forgive you and you will become a "new creation," a Christian.
cgvtv 1 year ago
Would make perfect sense if Rob here is correct. He presents this perfectly and easly understandable concept of how we might percieve reality if god IS real. However, his point is still dependant on the fact there needs to be a god to fulfill this ring analogy or finger analogy.
The analogy actually make logical sense if he is correct. Problem is....there is no way know if he actuallyis correct in his discussesion. Which proposes the question: why should I trust faith?
ashunga543 1 year ago
Good video, helps open the mind. Regardless if you put stock in believing any of it or portions, that really does't matter. Often its thinkers on the edge/beyond what humans just take for granted daily that help society learn something new about itself or the universe around us. Rob does this in a very easy to follow process. I've only watched him on YT, and so far i've not really been disappointed with any of his work..i may disagree with some things...but all in all he opens doors.
hexusziggurat 1 year ago
@hexusziggurat wow... opens the mind? christans are close minded. I was raised a pastors kid my entire life, i have never met so many rude, selfish, ignorant people in my life
frogpollen 1 year ago
@frogpollen I am Christian, and i'm pretty open.
Hmmm I don't know if its the Christians or simply the people that congregated together that you experienced as a child. Labelling all Christians "close-minded" would have to mean you traveled to all countries everywhere &/or witnessed/documented the nature of ALL Christians. Much too broad a paintstroke to say such things. We know Christ, & such actions are in transgression to Christianity.
hexusziggurat 1 year ago
Well, in this case, we have an event (the point becoming a line, etc.). In reality, religions don't have any of these
Thatonedude917 1 year ago
This is a great idea! Think about it, whenever we encounter something that we don't understand we should say 'God dunnit'. This is going to save a lot of time conducting pesky research to discover the nature of unexplained phenomena. We now have the answers to everything!
I was really hoping for something new with the contemporary and scholarly look to the presentation but it is the same old same old.
versanil 1 year ago
Philosophically arguable? Definitely. I can see why there may be the possibility of God's existence(unless one is referring to a specific concept. E.g. Abrahamic religions). However, "Lucifer overthrowing Yahweh after an epic standoff and tricking Christians into worshiping him", can pretty much be just as credible if we were to follow his line of reasoning. Maybe I should join the "brain the vat" religion, because intuition is enough for something to be true.
LameCrippled 1 year ago
Rob Bell is a douchey twerp and a false teacher
pockmarkedbuttocks 1 year ago
@pockmarkedbuttocks In all honesty, buttocks, are are an extremely immature individual (hence your name), and trust me when I say "you will never even be close to be able to pack his lunch". "Twerp"??? That is your best adjective to describe him? After you get your GED you may learn more demonstrative adjectives.
Rob is a once in a generation type person, along the lines of Billy Graham and Charles Stanley. Learn from this genius.
rlkavan 1 year ago
@rlkavan - ok Mr Sheople, this guy is not a true Christian nor is he a pastor, he's a high priest of the EmergentChurch Cult, which is nothing more than simple, silly Arminian Free Will Works-Salvation Catholicism. I've read Velvet Elvis AND SexGod - and the guy is saying nuthin' bout nuthin'. He is complete bullsh*t! I can hear better stuff from Wayne Dyer.
pockmarkedbuttocks 1 year ago
@pockmarkedbuttocks As your screen name sugests, you sir are a LOSER. Nuthin from nuthin???? Need to focus on getting the GED a little faster there buddy. Try reading those two books again, but this extricate your head from your pockedmarkedbuttocks first.
rlkavan 1 year ago
@rlkavan - No, you're the loser since you use nothing but ad hominen fallacies to insult me. Rob Bell is no Christian, as no true disciple of Jesus Christ would even suggest that our Lord had a human father named Larry ( like he did in 'Velvet Elvis') If you want to follow modern day false teachers than enjoy your NIV, Nooma videos, and Brian McClaren apostasy. You have absolutely NO discernment in these matters...and you're a moronic douche too ;->
pockmarkedbuttocks 1 year ago
@pockmarkedbuttocks And yet you call this guy a "moronic douche" AND claim to know the eternal destiny of one of God's children? Sounds like a large heap of double standard to me. Just saying. Don't make us look bad, man. Show some love. May I ask, do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ?
TheRecluse26 1 year ago
@TheRecluse26 - just re-read what I wrote and respond to that. I've made my points very clear Titus 1:9
pockmarkedbuttocks 1 year ago
@rlkavan It’s really respectful to look down upon those with a GED. Neither of my parents finished High School, I encouraged them to get their GED. I want them to be successful in their lives, now they are buying a house and have great jobs. The GED is a great opportunity for those who need a second chance in receiving and education. Do us all a favor, think before you speak.
frogpollen 1 year ago
Well I guess If I was 5 year old and someone drummed this bullshit into me, I guess I would believe you too.
No doubt there is more that we have yet to understand and learn, but I see absolutely no reason to believe in Rah, or Zeus, or any of the thousands of other supernatural beings that your thinking leads you to.
If there was such a being, don't you think there would be no doubt and we would all believe in it/him/her/whatever.
For an obviously intelligent person you are a disgrace.
NIXIMvideo 1 year ago
Your'e taking it too literally, I believe the ring and the fingers are symbolic. But you do demonstrate well the 'unenlightened' 2d people who attempt to explain everything with reason.
siwilliamson122 1 year ago
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I think it's notable that Atheists keep coming back to listen to apoligetics... you'd think if they were really SURE of their beliefs that they would have better things to do.
BUT: The truth is WAY DEEP DOWN they want to believe in God, and to know Him, because that's what they were created for - though they vehemently deny it.
lastdaysguitar 1 year ago
If I see fingers coming out of the sky, I would ask questions...But they don't
He still showed PHYSICAL PROOF (the ring, fingers) but in our world there are no physical proof... That is why he was flawed logic...
TTwhatdouwhant 1 year ago
This allegory don't proves the existence of Christ, it only gives us a think about the supposed existence of some sort of divine being. It just makes stronger the fact that faith is based in suppositions, and this can apply to ANY god, spirit, ghost, alien, etc.
Don't be fooled by nice words that try too hard to sound like physics and phylosophy.
bastianolea 1 year ago
Al final del video le dan color y sugieren que todo fue un argumento que valida a la existencia de un Dios, pero simplemente se puede (o no) aplicar a CUALQUIER Dios, ya que ninguno tiene bases (como el mismo video explica) que den realidad a la aseveración. No deja de ser fe, y la fe es creencia ciega en lo que claramente no existe.
bastianolea 1 year ago
Quizás es una buena metáfora, pero nada más. Es muy básica. Puede caer en su propio juego. Solo palabras bonitas y extrañas fingiendo que son filosofía y física avanzadas.
bastianolea 1 year ago
Flatland is a nice construct.
But it is not a very convincing argument to prove the existence of God.
Mojosbigstick 1 year ago
what if this whole life was just a drawing on a wipe board during one of God's sermons. :D
LIGHTRONIX 1 year ago
I grow weary of atheists claiming that religion is the most destructive force in the world. Nationalism, that is, patriotism and people invested in tribal nationalistic ideologies, have caused more violence in the last century that religion has in all history. The spanish inquisition claimed the lives of 12,000 people in 10 years and Stalin's athiestic dictatorship claimed the lives of (on the low end of guessing) 30,000,000 lives. Religion isn't perfect, but it is not the greatest delusion.
aragorn9288 1 year ago
Hey that makes sense...until you think.
RubiksTrumpet09 1 year ago
That is a great DVD and he makes a very good point, there is more - all you have to do is look
KiwiChristian 1 year ago
@andcumba123 - The bible is a book of "stories". Which a human with the intellect of a child would believe....
If you want to break through to ppl and their modern minds of today to deliver a message, you need to stay far away from a book that tells you about a talking snake, an ark like structure and a man who beat thousands to death with a donkey's jaw bone. If you believe the tales of the bible happend and are true,then you obviously still believe in Santa Clause.
dewaldr 1 year ago
There is no God. There is undeniably a God. There is only emptiness. There is only Everything. There only is. You can make everything as complicated as you want it to be, or as simple as you want it to be. Don't look at the apparent contradictions (there are no contradictions only confusion) only look at what is, we are all looking at the same thing I don't know how we all got so confused about that. If you made it up, it came from the world; respect the world.See past the lies you tell yourself
Nobi2137 1 year ago
Cute, but ultimately futile allegory, especially since most of the people with "great power invested" in maintaining the status quo were religious figures of some sort. And most of the enlightened souls were threatening their power.
All the pretty stories in the world can't change the fact that religion is nothing more or less than a corrupt, out-dated system for controlling poor desperate people by giving them false hope.
z3r0t0l3r4ns 1 year ago
The problem with his argument is that we haven't even seen his metaphical lines coming together.
Craptron2000 1 year ago
It would never turn into two lines though? It would always stay one line and then disappear as a point again. But I get the point, no pun intended.
sumstew 1 year ago
@sumstew it would actually, if the ring is passing through the board, once the first part of the ring has passed through only the two 'arms' of the ring would be touching the board, and they would be unconnected so would appear as two lines. I was confused at first too then worked it out
Melody2717 1 year ago
part 2
Ignoring for a moment the problems with his analogy that ive already pointed out, it still doesnt address why we should worship a god who supports slavery and rape (its supported in the bible)
Its cute how he's assembled some sort of lecture and got a sqeaky board and everything, trying to pretend to be just like one of the college intellectual elite. And commandeering an allegory that attacks victorian sexisim AND the church and inflating it to his own purposes no less!
OsyenVyeter 1 year ago
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MarkHolgate 1 year ago
1 Ok, so you got a metaphor. But a metaphor is ONLY a metaphor if it lacks any evidence to tie it to the real world and the lack of any hyperpheres passing through space in all of recorded human history kinda leads one to beg the question.
2This analogy suffers the same problems that the Kalam cosmological argument, the TAG arguement, and Pascal's wager has. It merely presents the MAYBE of a god but makes zero headway isolating it as the christian god over any of the other tons of choices.
OsyenVyeter 1 year ago
@OsyenVyeter sounds like you are responding to 'proof text' christians.The whole testimony of the bible is the guide, not just a single text. The whole picture points in a different direction: overwhelmingly against violence and slavery. over and over in those 'patriarchal' laws, we are told to look after the weak.
btw, he IS intellectual elite. top of class, multiple degrees, languages, etc, etc. I could say 'it's cute' how you're name-dropping phil arguments, but it would be ad hominem ;)
MarkHolgate 1 year ago
@MarkHolgateOh
Wait this guy is smart you say? Possibly smart enough to use a prefabricated indoctrination system to swindle hundreds of people out of their hard earned money each week?
Intelligence does not prove or even indicate intent, nor does it guaranty the accuracy of the intellectual's statements.
Before I give up my free will, my money and my absolute loathing for all that religion has done in this world you had better SHOW me god so I can cock slap him and tell him he's fired.
z3r0t0l3r4ns 1 year ago
All this talk about stupidity, didn't Jesus tell us not to call our brother idiot? Just sayin'.
DavenportCabinet 1 year ago
interesting, very interesting... Please continue, your stupid amuses me
xdkwallen742 1 year ago
someones completely forgotten about quantum mechanics :D
hazzaza1 1 year ago
You have some major flaws in your logic here buddy.
It's highly ironic that you would say believers of God are the ones saying "This isn't all there is". Because that's actually exactly what they're saying and scientists have been the ones all along who have been stretching our knowledge even into new actual dimensions.
A universe with the Christian god is a geocentric world of fixed morality and limited purpose. This isn't all there is.
justncase80 1 year ago
this is great but it does not proof that another dimentions exist and even if - there's same possibility of pruple rhinos masturbating onto our dimention than a marcyful god who has a real cool plan of our salvation from his poorly written story.
plasticTraveler 1 year ago
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Flatlander could metaphorically describe any perspective other than complete enlightenment - which presumably doesn't bother with fookin object'subject divide... assumption of form independent of observer. Kunts! If you're straight, try gay sex today. If you're a gay man. Fook a babe with massive knockers.
cosmicjazzer 1 year ago
Flatlander could metaphorically describe any perspective other than complete enlightenment - which presumably doesn't bother with fookin object'subject divide... assumption of form independent of observer. Kunts! If you're straight, try gay sex today. If you're a gay man. Fook a babe with massive knockers.
cosmicjazzer 1 year ago
fook me! athiests are more religious than religionists. The Kunts! Wat fookin appears reasonable is bleedin manipulated to lead to a certain vantage point. fookin truth is within not fookin within the realm of conceptual shit. fookin slow your brain waves down leave your body and go find out. Fookers
cosmicjazzer 1 year ago
im not the biggest fan of Rob Bell, but wow, he did a great job in this video! God Bless. In Christ - Bfinkish
bfinkish 1 year ago
the hypocricy of this video starting with the 2 stick figures is disgusting. Producers of this video and those of you that nod your heads to this hypocrite though he makes obsolutely no relative argument to atheism have no ethics.
let me see if I got this right. the ''flat land'' ideologist (atheist) shoots down the ''enlightened '' theist. Uhmmmm nooo .history/reality tells us that it is actually the opposite ... but lets not battle over common sense. Theists = enlightened? really?hahaha
dangermous1968 1 year ago
The people that respond negative to this video are just intellectually bankrupt. It just comes to show how people won't try to see anything beyond the realms of their minds, and their five senses. In my experiences, i have found that atheists just lack any kind of imagination. Because what rob bell is talking about is perspective and point of view.
vivaramones 1 year ago
@vivaramones amen. God Bless
bfinkish 1 year ago
@vivaramones
Rob Bell has one major flaw.He cannot empirically prove his claim for a suppoedly eternally evident being called god.
Killer0fTheSun 1 year ago
@Killer0fTheSun Oh sure there is plenty of evidence, but you won't consider it "evidence." Keep in mind, science does believe in things that have no "evidence" what so ever. The oscillating universe theory, the infinite parallel universe theory, dark matter, string theory, and the list goes on. Their just mathematical constructs, that try to provide explanation of the universe through indirect means -- ie dark matter. That means you have faith that dark matter exists.
vivaramones 1 year ago
@vivaramones
Actually no....take a gander at CRESST experiments and the XENON dark matter projects. As for empirical evidence for the claims of god i'd be glad to hear them.
Killer0fTheSun 1 year ago
@Killer0fTheSun
Neither can anyone prove otherwise.
He is simply presenting a reasonable case for the possibility of such, and how this seems a reasonable explination for many things we experience.
Tbird65 1 year ago
@Tbird65
I dont have to disprove..There is nothing to disprove.He made no such case by the way.
Killer0fTheSun 1 year ago
I think that your missing the whole point of these. That is these, we can not see the whole work of God, and creation can not fully understand the creator.
Your are right he is a good speaker, but it would be way better if he uses the bible to teach. Because I think that we can better understand when we let Gods work talk.
andcubma123 1 year ago 2
@andcubma123 If people are missing Bell's point here surely it's down to either
1/ their inability
or else
2/ their refusal to recognise parables?
This form of teaching is quite consistant with scripture (Old and New testament)even if "...hearing they do not hear..."
While I think Bell could have easily tied this in with "the pearl of great price" parable, doing so would not give him any more credence in the minds of those who do not already love scripture.
differous01 1 year ago
@andcubma123 perhaps he is trying to appeal to people who do not respect the Bible? To get somebody to cross the bridge into theism, you cannot point to the evidence that they most despise but instead cross the bridge yourself into their world & talk to them in ways they appreciate & understand...when they realize you are much like them then it is more apparent that they can come to trust your methods...etc
hexusziggurat 1 year ago
It's not that all atheists would claim that "there's nothing more", atheists would claim that you DON'T know what it is, even if there IS something more. "Feeling" and "believing" is not a reliable methodology for determining what is true or real. The argument with the ring is flawed because you start with the knowlege of what the "more" actually is-- in this case, a 3-dimensional object that we call a ring.
LogicRising 1 year ago
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His argument is flawed because he starts with knowlege of what a ring is, and that the object is, in fact, a ring. It's also flawed because things appearing out of nowhere is not something that is observed in our reality.
LogicRising 1 year ago
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LogicRising 1 year ago
point line line line line point gone is more than I've experienced of god... They saw the ring, I've never seen god. Horrible analogy and a waste of my fucking time.
Rewster86 1 year ago
Father you said that if Jesus is lifted up he will draw all men to himself. Lord I claim that for all who read this and are unable to lift themselves or Jesus up. I lift them up to you. And I pray that the seed you planted in them long before the foundations of the world were laid becomes activated. In the name of the resurrected Christ. Amen.
ronaldkevinlewis 1 year ago
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I don't know if this speech was designed to "stick it to the athiests" and call them "stuck in flatland" but to invite them to look at things another way. We know that for the flatland guy has the best argument in terms of anything visible and provable. It's about asking the question, "What if there is more then what we can test, taste, touch, feel, see, smell, hear?" "What if there is more to what we see?" It's about inviting people to try and view it from the "illogical" perspective.
Jollygoodas 1 year ago
I don't know if this speech was designed to "stick it to the athiests" and call them "stuck in flatland" but to invite them to look at things another way. We know that for the flatland guy has the best argument in terms of anything visible and provable. It's about asking the question, "What if there is more then what we can test, taste, touch, feel, see, smell, hear?" "What if there is more to what we see?" It's about inviting people to try and view it from the "illogical" perspective.
Jollygoodas 1 year ago
What is the one consistent thing science & understanding has done throughout history? It has exposed superstition for what it is, which is believing that the things we don't understand are caused by magic! And gods were/are magic to primitive, uneducated man. My ancestors used to believe a god pushed the sun across the sky everyday. The scientific study of nature dispelled these superstitions.
What has ever been studied & in our reality & found to be caused by magic, or a god?
Cootabux 1 year ago
He's got a flare for the dramatic, don't he? Too bad it fails!
Again, he needs to demonstrate it!! What he's really trying to say is that what he thinks is experiencing god, is eventually found to be explained as something else. (and btw, they wouldn't his fingers as circles, but horizontal lines)!
He's under the misapprehension that atheists live in flatland. I've spent a half century experiencing different aspects of spirituality. My position now does not come from any flatland, I assure you.
Cootabux 1 year ago
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@bigwhammyRocks i2Black1 The Hebrew name for G-d when translated means I am that I am, and I will be what I will be. He is The Great I am.. The Force that causes all to exist, and yet He has a personality, He speaks to us, and gives us guidance, through messengers and signs. We just have to allow ourselves to have eyes that see and ears that hear. Blessings my friend
ronaldkevinlewis 1 year ago
@PostITnoteGUY Nobody knows what is truly out there. In all honesty nobody knows. Real Christians believe because they have "felt" (just like Rob Bell was describing) something out there and trust in that because the "feeling" that Christians get for the most part changes their entire lives for the better. If it's better why not believe in it?
Juamoa 1 year ago
To clarify, in this analogy, 3-D =- supernatural; there is no evidence for supernatural 3-D rings (intercessory prayer, angels, gods, miracles, etc.). In my improved analogy, 3-D = naturalism that is counterintuitive; we have tons of evidence for counterintuitive, natural 3-D rings (round earth vs. flat earth; heliocentrism, wave-particle duality; relativity theory, quantum mechanics, evolution by natural selection, etc., etc. etc.).
eancarana 1 year ago
This would be a good analogy, if one could observe the effects of rings, hands, or other 3-D objects interacting with our 2-D world. We don't; this is where the analogy fails.
OTOH, this analogy works if it is the Xian that insists that the world is 2-D because all of his intuitive and rational "commonsense" tells him that a 3-D world doesn't exist, while the scientist has empirical, rational, counterintuitive evidence of a 3-D world (rings, hands, etc.). NOW the analogy succeeds.
eancarana 1 year ago
This is an interesting analogy.
HypoTheLlamas 1 year ago
We western people have too much time for words. It's so boring to read these discussions. Go and feed some hungry person! Doesn't matter which side you're on! If Jesus exists He will say to you enter the kingdom because you feeded me when I was hungry. If He doesn't exists you've done something good. So why fight each other? Do something good together and feel the blessing of doing that!
Peace
TheVanitykiller 1 year ago
I hope there comes a day were Christians will stop losing too much time in defending God... I hope there comes a day in which the love of the real Christians (and not those nasty and aggressive arrogant that think they're the best) will speak louder than words. God will never be proved with words, never, and neither the opposite.
TheVanitykiller 1 year ago
So what if the 'reductionist', instead of saying there's no way to test these claims, starts observing other objects, and the next time he sees a ring, tries to 'catch' it by sticking a finger in between the lines? In flatland too, claims can be tested.
And even if that weren't true, imagining a world in which someone is right about something he doesn't have proof of, doesn't mean you're right about other stuff you don't have proof of.
Funny guy though.
WilbertK13 1 year ago
Its a bad analogy
hayshed 1 year ago
He's trying his best to match the hypnotic cadence of Carl Sagan's delivery, to essentially say the same pseudo-scientific-sounding stuff, and his uneducated audience thinks he brings an original christian perspective from his own 'vast' intellect. Whereas, a well-rounded, educated, slightly older person would recognize this as recycled nerdspeak from the 80's... I would respect the effort, if I wasn't put off by his warped, universalist theology. Rob Bell has no point. He loves his own voice.
LouSkannin 1 year ago 2
@LouSkannin @LouSkannin Seriously. I agree with you. Rob Bell is even trying to TALK like Carl Sagan. Used to be we respected preachers who knew Jesus. Turns out, this retread is more into "recycling" than we thought! Except, this time we are rehashing used science-fiction from an ATHEIST in the 1980's. Look up Carl Sagan Dimensions on youtube.
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PerezUzzah 1 year ago
Very entertaining speaker. Nice video. Thumbs up.
Segepop 1 year ago
Since humans were competent enough to fathom the idea of life after death, it has so been desired. Do you think, because all you know is driven by logic, that you have it all figured out? That notion is insane. We can all rest easy saying, there's no way we can know, but maybe, just MAYBE, if we spread love, and give to someone who's dying without choice, that that very progress is divine. So, live to the fullest, go bungee jumping! But acknowledge that someone is suffering, and you could help.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
& now arises the "It's inhumane to tell people all the religious bull, because there's only one life to live, and they should live it to the fullest". Tell me, what's living life to the fullest when every night going to sleep, you're fully aware that the next day will be the doppelganger of this one, with no food, no parents, just hell on earth for this one being. You see, this faith, it's universal, it's not just with Christianity, or Muslims, or Jews, or Buddhists or Pagans.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
Ah, Atheists and their silver-tongues. Do you really fret that much when you hear a competent christian speak? Really, do you burn with the desire to shout from the rooftops "THERE IS NO GOD!!" It's futile, put logic aside, and think of human emotion.. 90% of humans would like to know that life continues ensuing death, now I know for certain when a missionary tells a starving African child who has lost both parents, that there is more.. That they will believe within their hearts.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
So reality doesn`t count any more. If people feel happy, lies or no longer lies, fantasy is no longer fantasy. People should be able to face reality: Dead is dead.
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon You don't know what is truly classified as "fantasy". All you know is what you see, and the notion that our consciousness simply clicks off after death is just as likely as consciousness continuing. You are just as oblivious as any other human on this mysterious little ball. It's easy to face reality when reality is a breeze, how insensitive and condescending. Reality is harsh, and there's nothing we can do about it, accept "fantasize" according to you.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky --and the notion that our consciousness simply clicks off after death is just as likely as consciousness continuing.--
NO, that`s pure speculation. There is not a shred of evidence for the continuation of consciouness. Those who make an extraordinary claim, have the burden of proof.
lizazoon 1 year ago
& what's the proof that consciousness ceases to exist? Because we decompose? There's not a shred of anything that would prove either, & this was my previous statement in the first place. You don't know, and you'll never know, so why tell anyone their wrong? We as conscious beings, are incapable of knowing. Because someone wants to play it safe and live virtuously, does not mean you take up the duty of telling them their faith is false. Because you have no warrant of truth behind you. sorry.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky You make an extraordinary claim, that consciousness lives on. Prove it. It`s as simple as that. If you accept eveything without a shred of evidence, than everything is possible and acceptable.
lizazoon 1 year ago
Except the flatlanders are debating empirical occurrences whereas Theists vs Atheists are debating the origins of empirical occurrences. One side can use Empiricism the whole way through and the knowledge is applicable in industry and everyday life. The other side injects the supernatural when it's not needed and the supernatural is useless in daily life (to create, manufacture etc) Occams razor....
JRuni0r 1 year ago
The key to understanding Jesus is to understand that the world in which he came was broken. He came to a place in which bad things happened to good people. He came to bring a choice. You can choose to live the way you are, hurting people or you can choose HIs way. The belief that there is more to this world than what you see. Jesus gave us one gift, the ability to judge ourselves against the standards upon which we will ultimately be judged. To understanding the gift u must read it. GRACE
maglinlau 1 year ago
Its terrible what Rob Bell is suggesting what is an acceptable way of thinking. Just imagine if sociality actually used it!
Hes saying that if you see something that you don't understand. It's ok to use faith to assume what that something is. It's ok to built your life around what you think that something is.
For example, If i saw a figure in the sky I haven't seen before or i don't understand. With his rationality I could say that it is a an alien space craft!
Just think everyone!
truckcompany 1 year ago
The only possible honest answer is "I don't know if god/gods exist." There simply not enough know to make a decision that there is something else to existence, or in this case outside of existence.
If the only possible answer is "don't know" then the only possible honest position to take up is that of the agnostic atheist. This being that there is no way of even knowing anything about an infinite, limitless being. Even the smallest concept of such a being is beyond human awareness.
13shadowwolf 1 year ago
such a good point.
mcpencil 1 year ago 3
I like Carl Sagans repræsentation 4 th dimention better.
Dont think he ever said anything about ateist in that one...
Baburote 2 years ago
The irony is that in a way we do live in "flatland" but physics can define many more dimensions than humans experience without resorting to using "a feeling".
Lacking the evidence to support the existence of a deity, the god of the gaps will hopefully become marginalised in my lifetime.
tosspotovich 2 years ago
@tosspotovich - I also hope the God of the gaps dissappears and simply God remains. I hope believers stop trying to demonstrate God is real, He doesn't need us to do that. Christians should bother about loving more than proofing.
Imagine the oppossite of what you hope happens and that physiscs actually discover the dimension of God! That would be so great because we would share such an awesome experience that is Gods love for u and me.
Peace.
TheVanitykiller 2 years ago
If there is a god I hope it doesn't bear a resemblance to any of the morally reprehensible deities invented by humans. The Christian version is one of the worst.
tosspotovich 2 years ago
Please help me to understand what you mean. Explain what is so terrible about Jesus. It's easy to criticize christians. 1st they're humans so they make mistakes. 2nd you can find wolves with sheep clothes saying things in the name of God.
But tell me something wrong about Jesus and then we can have a serious dialogue.
Peace.
TheVanitykiller 1 year ago
Well he did advocate slavery and child abuse but I was actually referring to Yahweh in the Bible. For those that believe they are one and the same, Jesus was worse than Hitler.
tosspotovich 1 year ago
Could you please specify in which part of scriptures you have found that Jesus advocates slavery and child abuse? Without specific details I can't understand your statement.
In my point of view Yahweh of the old testament was a primitive conception of God and through Jesus we have come to know God better. Any concept of a cruel God found is an incomplete and primitive knowledge. In christianity, anything that contradicts Jesus, must be profoundly studied in order to be understood.
TheVanitykiller 1 year ago
tosspotovich 1 year ago
I'm not a scholar either!
When u read the Bible there is one elemmentary thing you have to do: reading in context and not out of context.
Mathew 15:4 Jesus is not advocating child murder, he's criticizing pharisees for being hypocrites comparing that verse with another one. Children loved Jesus! Mark 10:14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
TheVanitykiller 1 year ago
Exactly the same thing happens with Mark 7:5-10
Lets look to Matthew 19:29- This is a harsh one for me too! I think it's an emphasis that God must be put first.
Luke 12:42 - Jesus is not agreeing he is describing a very common situation a t that time and using it to tell a story!
Finally Mathew 5:18 - This is a complex one. But remember, Jesus broke the sabbath because of love, he said to love your enemies, he touched unclean woman... Against the law.
TheVanitykiller 1 year ago
At the rate those gaps are closing, it won't be long.
AbbeyNormal 2 years ago
This guy is a fucking idiot. Sorry but atheists are the philosophically evolved not the Christians.
Vomitonthecross 2 years ago
i don't get it. this must be why religion is just so "wtf" for me. flat land people? like when people thought the world was flight but through science we realized the truth?
foxpawz 2 years ago
fox ur retarded give up on religion, try killing urself dik head
aghahowa11 2 years ago
I like to say sorry, i did not know you were a girl, forgive me cupacke, i find u rather attractive are u single cupcake? i wud quit my religion for u :P
aghahowa11 2 years ago