Better Than Ethanol? BTL in plug-in hybrid diesel vehicles

[EverywhereVirtually]

The Diesel engine wasn't invented in he 1900's as he says or the 1930's as is written on his slide... 1892: February 23, Rudolf Diesel obtained a patent (RP 67207) titled "Arbeitsverfahren und Ausführungsart für Verbrennungsmaschinen". This is when it was invented and patented.

[passout18]

@EverywhereVirtually If you look at what the slide actually says, It says that the "diesel engine was demonstrated at the 1900 Paris World Fair" not invented in 1900 and it does't say it was invented in the 1930's either it says the first diesel powered car was introduced in the 1930's. Although you may be right about the actual patent dates, you are wrong for trying to correct the information in the slide because you misread it.

[Labyrynth1000]

I disagree that we don't have enough "feedstock" as he puts it for biodiesel to be an answer. They are doing some really good work with algae bioreactors.

[Feanic]

In a commercial FT slurry bubble column, what exactly is the liquid in the reactor? Because the carbonmonoxide and hydrogen forms the gas phase, while the catalysts form the solid phase. But what is the liquid phase?

I'm just wondering...

[captwasabi]

I find it incredibly disgusting that instead of feeding the worlds starving millions we are instead using these food supplies to power our cars.

[braino2000]

Ethanol is terrible anyways. At least in america. Diesel is a better solution. The only reason it's more expensive at the pump is because refineries don't produce that much of it. Unleaded fuel is just retarded over all. It costs more to make and it's low performance with bad torque and bad gas mileage. One of my freinds has a 1993 VW Jetta that's deisel and it gets 56 MPG. And PS, deisels have more torque and power, that's why ALOT of Le Mans race cars use it

[datzfast]

i believe you, then why build a more expensive hybrid. by a 20k diesel car

and 10k dollars of diesel. its cheaper than

the 30k hybrid

[datzfast]

you could drive your car 250,000 miles for 10k dollars in diesel. expensive hybrids

are not cost effective

[zenshin00]

Just a little comment to the author regarding the "Brazil Fallacy": I live in Brazil and frankly all those comments about ethanol taking rainforest and food lands are simply misinformation. THe forest is usually destroyed by soy plantations and cattle farmers. The biggest ethanol producing region is where I live and is quite to the south of the country, Ribeirão Preto, near São Paulo. I work on the field and am deeply saddened when people attack our biofuels programme, which ISN´T subsidized.

[wanlopez]

He was stating that your program is good, but would not work in America or other places away from the equator. It is unique, which is good for you, but we need to focus on those evolutions that will work for us and not assume that the solution already exists. It was a comment too American policy makers who believe that Brazil's solution would work here, to start thinking hard about America's energy needs.

[fsrafols]

That's absolutely true... most of ethanol production in Brazil is way South, not even near the Ecuador line...

[fsrafols]

That's absolutely true... most of ethanol production in Brazil is way South, not even near the Ecuador line...

[wendelgyutb]

i accord, the biggest production is in São Paulo and Paraná; this solution CAN WORK on other place, by developing techniques os cultivation, like mirror or what ever

[ismasamov55]

@zenshin00 I fail to understand why you would be deeply saddened by someone's comments , who perhaps is not informed. If you are happy and proud of what you do then why would comments such as those you mention be so damaging. You should build a thicker skin and worry less of what others say and go with your convictions.

[mtb416]

@zenshin00 If it's not subsidized that is probably why it works.

[bmecher]

@zenshin00 His wording was wrong........ I think what he was saying was that what works for Brazil, will not work elsewhere. Uless it is some where the same favorable factors exist. (across the atlantic in Africa near the Congo/Niger rivers......?)

[imac83]

The only problem I see with the technology, is that the engine needs to be powerful enough to drive the car at highway speeds for long periods after the battery runs out. A small ICE would be running flat out to do this, and might be inefficient. A larger ICE would be preferable if doing a lot of highway driving. As now, there could be different engine options, but all versions would still be better than without the technology.

[imac83]

While it may be expensive at first, it will save $1000 or more per year in fuel, which will offset the price. Government rebates will likely be available as well. Additionally, if there are motors driving the front and rear axles, then the car can be marketed as all wheel drive. This will further offset the higher price problem as many are willing to pay several thousand for all wheel drive now.

[vancouverbluz]

Algae is the future algae->biodiesel

[rmbenet]

If so, I look forward to know it. If not, you're out of your depth and need to be careful about making pronouncements that are imperfect. Sorry to sound harsh, but I'm finding the people who are well meaning but don't know what they are talking about are worse for everyone than the most bottom-line oriented person from big oil. Note, though, that four years ago I had almost no expertise in this area, which proves nearly anyone can learn this stuff if you're dedicated.

[rmbenet]

Fifth, biodiesel is an imperfect product, particularly given its poor cold weather properties, versus gasification which I believe will be omniverous and using Fischer-Tropsch, can essentially create something indistinguishable from petroleum diesel. Thus, Vancounverbluz, do you have any new or important information that suggests that I'm not seeing things correctly>

[vancouverbluz]

Rmbenet - thank you for your input. I agree the Fischer-Tropsch mechanism is a very good one but so is many others. Biodiesel unfortunately has terrible cold water properties, but a couple of companies in Cal are working to use algae biodiesel as a feedstock to convert it into petrodiesel using bacteria. Biodiesel represents a good feedstock because of the efficiency of algae. Colledge arizona is installing a 30mill gallon biodiesel plant.

[rmbenet]

Third, even on waste land, just the simple structure plastic covering and simple superstructure was expensive. Fourth, algae doesn't work more than a couple of algae deep, so you need to essentially mulch, which calls for pumps and energy expenditures, and also makes algae a horizontally planar dependent issue.And if you're going to grow the stuff in the ocean, you're going to need a lot of ocean and a lot of time and energy resources to collect it. So you have to worry about the energybalance.

[vancouverbluz]

You think a Fischer-Tropsch refinery is going to be any cheaper than an closed loop algae bioreactor??? They are still refining the bioreactor, but they have developed designs in bioreactors that would enable light to penetrate photosynthetic tanks. Who said anything about the ocean, they are going to build one in the desert 10000gal/acre/year

[rmbenet]

Second, while they found interesting possibilities, they were having problems getting super algae. Perhaps today's bioengineering will change that, if you are the type that allows for genetic engineering like me. Essentially, they found that the best algae was the algae found in nature where you were trying to grow it. But there was some type of shut off mechanism when it came to creating an overproducing algae.

[vancouverbluz]

They have found some super algae in nature. Beyond that they could engage in nano tech to isolate the proteins. The important thing which surpasses the fischer tropsch is the fact that you could have multiple producers. The technology is developing faster, but when it is refined, you'll have as many energy producers of algae diesel as you will microbreweries and vineyards. Whilest a few companies will control the refineries for converting coal or whatever feedstock will be used into diesel.

[ingyz69]

Where can I learn more about algae as a bio fuel?

Ingyz

[rmbenet]

... [continue] I'm trying to do related start-up. However, if I'm wrong regarding batteries, particularly the timing of solutions, good for all of us. Really. As for biofuels, all I'm saying is that if PHEVs are the 85% solution and with today's approaches we could actually solve the other 15% of our petroleum dependence...with biofuels, then we've achieved the 100% petroleum independence holy grail in the near term. But, yes, it's better to do PHEVs with petroleum versus not...

[rmbenet]

...PHEVs at all, but remember the cost differential. That's the big problem. As for people buying less liquid fuel and consuming less, call me a skeptic. But you've identified the real ethical/environmental crux of the issue. I went without a car for a year and a half with a family with three kids, and that was in super bicycle friendly Davis,...

[rmbenet]

... California, and the way the world works, it wasn't easy. I'm not saying this to be holier than thou, but what have you given up in a substantial way? Now imagine everybody having to do that. I don't think even the most green of us really realize how integral fossil fuel is to our world. I roughly estimate that billions of people wouldn't be alive today without it. Who do we choose to make into soylent green first?

[greyflcn]

==However, I think batteries (power density, charging time, weight, size) are and will continue to be the weakness for using electricity to power vehicles.==

I wouldn't be that doubting. Atleast for any time scale which we would actually be "running out" of fossil fuels.

greyfalcon. net/ quickcharge3.png

greyfalcon. net/ quickcharge

greyfalcon. net/ quickcharge2

But as mentioned PHEVs cover all those weaknesses adequately enough for the meantime.

[greyflcn]

Now the part of your argument I don't buy is that "Getting off of Petroleum" is the most important thing to do. ASAP.

No. The goal should be optimized towards dealing with global warming.

It's just antithetical to increase the supply of liquid fuels, when you are trying PRIMARILY to get people to use less liquid fuels.

Instead, we should allow for liquid fuels to become prohibitively expensive.

And let that drive fuel economy levels higher.

[gerfriedc]

Yeah the real problem is that we drive 100kW engines while we just would need 10kW ones...

[greyflcn]

Well the real problem is that he makes the assumptions that batteries will never be able to charge quickly enough to match the refueling speed of a liquid fuel.

That however is not true.

What we should be doing is plugin hybrids now, using petroleum. And then shift to entirely electric cars later.

And forget the whole biofuels step completely.

Especially if we are trying to make people buy less liquid fuel, it doesn't make sense to be trying to create more liquid fuel.

[rmbenet]

Hi Greyflcn. Reed Benet here. Did I explicitly make this assumption? I'm sure I didn't say never. However, I think batteries (power density, charging time, weight, size) are and will continue to be the weakness for using electricity to power vehicles. What I'm most interested in, though, are business models that don't require any improvement in batteries but still make big battery PHEVs commercializable with limited increases in cost. Can't tell you what my idea is because...

[rmbenet]

Hi, Gerfriedc. Reed Benet here. I generally agree with this point. Power capabilities and actual demands on that power are mismatched. Thus the interesting thing about plug-in hybrids. Electric motors have high torque (incidentally so do diesels). Big batteries, electric motors, plugs, and small internal combustion engines are the way to go.

[greyflcn]

The question being, if we shift to Fischer Tropsch, then whats stopping them from using coal as a carbon source, instead of biomass.

Furthermore, the real limit to biomass isn't the feedstock or the process.

The real limit is the fact that photosynthesis itself is inherently limited to a theoretical limit of 11% solar efficiency.

Which realistically can only be 3-6%

And then we lose more than half of that in processing it with Fischer Tropsch

[soylentgreenb]

The amount of solar energy is so vast that efficiency is not that important.

Growing wast quantities of grass and weeds is cheap and can be ramped up on the order of years. Even if you just burn most of it, it contributes negligibly to soil errosion compared to corn or soy, say, and it needs little or no fertilizer.

In the long term we'll want to use less stupid solutions, but those can't be ramped up as fast as the dumb brute force solution.

[greyflcn]

==The amount of solar energy is so vast that efficiency is not that important.==

Sure it's vast, thats still not realistic.

greyfalcon. net/ greenenergy.png

Cellulosics are less efficient than PalmOil/SugarCane, and this chart assumes that level of efficiency.

greyfalcon. net/ biolimits.png

Whats more, the only realistic source of "solid biomass" which they could use to get enough fuel would be coal.

greyfalcon. net/ fossilenergy.png

greyfalcon. net/ lca.png

[rmbenet]

Reed Benet here... I'm a big believer in solar for stationary applications and where all our high tech industry and vc experience will really bring price down and efficiency up. As for palm oil/sugar cane, it's never enough even if we knock down all the rain forest on the equator. e.g. I estimate "only" 11 billion gallons of biodiesel (U.S. alone uses 60 billion) if we take supply completely away from food. Much more to say, but only 500 characters to say it.

[rmbenet]

Reed Benet here. Without carbon credits/taxes, grass/weeds aren't as cheap as everyone thinks. Yes, growing cheap, assuming scrub land, but getting it to a centralized location is not that cheap, both economically and enviro lifecycle basis. Sierra Energy offers massive, omniverous, all positive energy balances, and continuous process conversion to synthesis gas. IMHO, we need fair fights not based on philosophy (ignorant greenies) or self interest (the farm lobby), but maybe I'm a dreamer. ;-)