Martina is a sore loser, she showed it every time she lost, early 80's she did what Sampras did in the 90's, milked the cow on a weak competition, and history will always showed this with the both players.
Wow, Martina really choked here.....i think this match shows that by 1989, Graf was slipping a bit...
...she had lost the French Open, had been pushed by 15 Year old Seles in the Semis, and here, 32 YO Martina just choked it away and Graf was lucky......
Some faggot wrote "i think this match shows that by 1989, Graf was slipping a bit...".
And no, no one thinks Steffi was slipping in a year in which she won 86 of 88 matches. And no one thinks the USO 89 final showed her slipping when she won the next 42 matches in a row.
@artisking1 In case you who don't yet know, Hoffenheim08 is the official,ordained High Priestess of the Cult of Steffi. He/She stalks youtube trashing all of Graf's main rivals(what rivals? Martina and Chrissie were a generation older and her one real rival, Monica Seles was stabbed and put out of commission by a Graf fan - a German). He goes for the throat of anyone who says anything negative about Steffi & writes under at least a half dozen other names. Usually abusive and obscene.
@artisking1 On the previous page, Fräulein Hoffenschleim writes: "... I don't think that Sabatini or Novotna would have needed two years to recover from a minor stabbing..." referring to Seles. A "minor" stabbing!!!!! Hello!! How sick is that?? Freud would pay this guy for the sessions.
No the Sabatini and the other nobodies did not have Seles mental toughness that's why they lost to Graf in slam finals. Novotna had a lot of talent BUT she did not have the NERVE To win more slams. Novotna had the game to beat Graf but clearly was very mentally weak.
watching these two legends is the perfect antidote to watching the women's game these days, miss the battles in grand slam finals between the greats - Graf, Navratilova, Seles, Evert.....
I was so upset when Martina started to choke that I had to leave the TV set and take a walk. This was probably one of the most devastating losses for Martina b/c the match was almost hers. A very sad day for Martina.
They had a screen showing memories of Monica's comeback and great performances in Canada where she won 4 times in a row after the stabbing. It was a beautiful scene. It is great to see Monica now. She looks so fit, happy, and at peace. I so wish she had been able to get back in this shape in her post stabbing years too *sighs* but whats past is past I guess.
You and Serenakicksass would have liked watching todays doubles match to Open the Canadian Open. It was Seles and Canada's top player Wozniak vs Serena and Martina. It was just a fun doubles set, nothing serious, but it was great to see all 3 legends of different generations on court together. Seles was inducted into the Canadian tennis hall of fame today on Opening Day of the Rogers Cup event in Toronto. The doubles set was preceding it. I am Canadian so saw it all on TSN.
You are right. Still with the home crowd factor she probably would have dominated on any surface even if everyone had played there back then. Atleast winning 7 even if King, Bueno and all the rest played every year and even if it were on rebound ace.
Nicklas do you do anything all day except post on youtube videos trying to brainwash everyone that your beloved Martina is the greatest ever with all your twisted and manipulated stats. Everytime I pass by a tennis video with any of Martina, Evert, Graf, Seles, on it I see 100 posts by you a day about "my lover MN this" "my beloved MN that". Seriously get a life. Navratilova doesnt even know you exist loser.
Oh, thats sweet coming from someone who defines him/herself as serenakicksas. Sorry, dont let my facts and figures spoil your fun ;) I have been a bit long-winded admittedly. I'll rein it in.
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2/2
cont'd...
One way to deflect the unwanted attention from herself was to laud her respected rival and predecessor at the top, Martina Navratilova, as the century's most notable player. Yesterday Graf, whose decadelong rivalry with Navratilova ended in a 9-9 stalemate, did just that. ''For me she is the uncontested No. 1; she has left a mark on the sport like no one else,''
and it ends with the words of BJ King: ''Steffi is definitely the greatest women's tennis player of all time.''
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Hello again. I have said in another post that Steffi was probably just being modest here and that Navratilova has said similarly generous things about Graf. I also gave the reference so people could check out the article for themselves - didn't want to reproduce the whole thing on here ;) It was a pro-Graf article that came out just after her retirement. Nevertheless, those were Steffi's exact words and I thought they were worth quoting if only to show the respect she had for Martina's game.
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As for BJ King's comment, that may have been her view in 1999, but she revised it by 2006 when she declared Navratilova "the greatest singles, doubles, and mixed doubles player there has ever been."
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Sorry, slight misquote: "She's the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player who's ever lived". Referenced in Wikipedia if you want the context.
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So you credit BJK when she favours your heroine and discredit her when she favours mine...nice one! ;) Going back to Steffi's tribute to Martina - you know, she didn't have to say anything at all on the subject, she could easily have deflected the question of who's greatest by saying 'that's for others to decide' or similar. Really I think the quote is interesting because it shows how much genuine respect Steffi & Martina had for each other - something you see little of in this tribal forum ;)
mmm, if Graf is the greatest hard court player ever, why does she have a losing h2h to Navratilova on hard courts and a 3-1 losing record to Navratilova at the US Open (on hard court)?
If Navratilova is the greatest hard court player ever why does she have fewer hard court slams than Graf, Seles, and Serena. If the Aussie Open was on slow hard courts then Martina would still have less, unless you think she was going to win more on slow hard courts than she did on grass there, and she would have less than Evert now also if the U.S Open were on hard courts instead of clay from 75-77. Martina is far from the best hard courter ever.
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I don't think I said that Navratilova was the best hard court player ever. Just challenging Muffycat's assertion that Graf was the greatest hard courter ever - which is debatable, wouldn't you agree, given her losing record to Navratilova on this surface?
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Now onto Graf no I dont believe Martina is better than Graf on hard courts just because of their head to head. At the U.S Open from 85-87 Martina was much closer to her prime than Graf so was supposed to beat her. Yes an old Martina did upset prime Graf once there in 91. However that alone doesnt put Martina over Graf on hard courts for me. Graf won more U.S Opens, and would have definitely won more Australians anyway. I hate Graf with a passion so am certainly not biased to her.
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Ultimately the greatest hard court player ever is neither Graf or Navratilova though I feel. I definitely think it is Seles or Serena Williams. Serena Williams is on her way to a huge total of hard court slams. Seles would have been on her way to a double digit total of hard court slams without Mr. Parche. So for me it isbetween those two.
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Martina missed the Australian Open between '76-'79 (when it was played on grass) having reached the final in '75, and also in '86. She might well have won more but in those days the AO wasn't considered so important.
I don't agree that she would have less than Evert now if the USO were on hard courts instead of clay from '75-77. The reverse: clay suited Evert 's game more than Navratilova's.
Navratilova would not have won anything in 76 or 77. She was in the final in 75 since it was a depleted field as always in Australia the but was destroyed by Goolagong. In 76 and 77 she lost to Evert at Wimbldon (not a bad loss) but also Betty Stove. 78 she barely beat Evert at Wimbledon, she wasnt ever going to beat her on slow hard courts. 79 she couldt get a set off Austin on fast hard courts at the U.S Open. So no there isnt a year from 76-79 she would have won the AO on rebound ace.
Continuing on based on all of that her only chances to win the Australian Open on rebound ace like it is today would have been the years she did win it- 81, 83, and 85. However Evert was even older than Martina in 88 and destroyed her in their first meeting on rebound ace. That match is telliing. I would say she maybe gets 1 or 2 Aussies on rebound ace to go with her 4 U.S Opens so has less than all those I mentioned in that case.
Now onto Evert at the U.S Open, Chris Evert was by far the games dominant player in 75-77. You seem to forget this period was not the Martina reign, it was the Chris reign. I think she probably wins all 3 even on fast hard courts. Chris's biggest threats around then were Goolagong and an aging King on grass, that is it pretty much, even on hard courts I dont see those two or anyone else having much chance to beat her those few years.
Dumb logic. Based on that logic Graf would be the greatest grass court player ever and not Navratilova since she leads her 2-1. Based on that logic Nadal is a better hard court player than Federer since he is 3-1 vs Federer on outdoor hard courts, LOL! Based on that logic Blake is better than Nadal with his 3-2 head to head. Based on that logic Conchita Martinez is better than Navratilova since she is 4-1 lifetime vs her and Jo Durie is better than Steffi Graf since she is 4-3 vs her.
Calm down, dear. I didn't say that Navratilova was the greatest hard court player ever, just pointing out the fact that she has a winning H2H record on hard courts vs Graf and at USO.
Well I still consider Graf as superior to her on hard courts despite that. :) No need to ask how I can still think that, my examples should suffice.
And if you want to know why:
-1 more title at the U.S Open, and less "bad" losses in her prime ( eg- Martina losing to Shriver twice). I am roughly counting Martina 78-87 and Graf 87-96 by the way
-although rebound ace didnt come until Martina was aging, I suspect the difference on this surface between the two would be even more
I probably have to agree with you considering their complete records at the US and Aussie Opens :) I always felt that Navratilova slightly underachieved at USO, even though she won 4, because of her close final losses to Austin, Mandlikova, and Shriver. Plus she was 6-2, 4-2 against Graf in 1989 and kinda crumbled (or Graf raised her game, whatever). I feel she was good enough to win 5 or 6 but fell short.
Well the funny thing is if she had won that 89 final it would be almost impossible to put Graf over her on hard courts. It would now be 5-4 at the U. S Open and 5-0 head to head in hard court slams. That match made a big difference. I agree Martina should have won that match. Graf herself maybe feels she should have won the 86 semis where she had 3 match points, but the 86 was more a toss up match while the 89 one was clear cut Martina should have won given her lead.
I think Hana in 85 was in the zone. I think she was going to beat anyone that particular event probably. Martina did well to fight back from small deficits a number of times to make it so close. Her 2 losses to Shriver were dissapointing. Shriver is a solid player and very underrated, but I think Martina has only lost 3 out of 40 matches to her so shouldnt have lost to her twice at the Open . Then again both times she was going to have to play Evert which is no gimme, especialy in 78.
Lastly Tracy Austin is a great player who was seriously challenging for #1 vs Evert and Navratilova but Martina definitely should have won that 81 final which she controlled almost the whole way but Austin was tough as nails on the big points (which is her trademark) and Martina got a bit tight.
Yep, I think that was Martina's big weakness - nerves. She could go from arrogance to panic with nothing in between. Court also apparently suffered from nerves on the big occasion (e.g. the Riggs fiasco) though her slam record doesn't show it. I think Evert and Graf were much more steely competitors.
Court's Wimbledon record shows her nerves clearly. Only 3 Wimbledons with a grass court specialist with a monstrous serve/volley and power game. When she played the pretty popular younger Goolagong in the 71 final (although Goolagong did go on to become a great player with 7 slams and many other finals) she was clearly unnerved by the crowd passionately rooting for her countrywomen and against her.
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Martina had to build her body up to compensate for her mental fragility (this was her great weakness). Evert could get tentative and nervous at certain points in a match, but you never really remember her choking away a match. But Martina you do. And your second sentence was originally said by Renee Richards, not by you.
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It was Ted Tinling who first coined the phrase:
"Martina's always going to have the storm; she's always going to underassess her opponent and underassess her own ability to handle it when the storm hits. She goes from arrogance to panic, with nothing in between."
I've seen it applied to several other players, e.g. Virginia Wade and Gabriela Sabatini.
And you agree with me about Martina's mental fragility - hardly an original observation ;)
@Nicklas4500 I think it would be completely unfair to put Martina in the same category of mental weakness as Sabatini and Novotna though. You dont win 18 slams, 9 Wimbledons, and over 160 tournaments by being a chronic choker. I dont think she is as mentally tough as Evert, Graf, or Seles, but she is still not a pushover in that regard. She is prone to a bit of nerves on occasion but on the whole she is still very mentally tough. I am too young to have seen Wade much.
I think martina's biggest flaw was she let her feelings show way too much on the court. and when she would get upset, her opponents could tell right away and that boosted their confidence.
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1/2
why don't you post the beginning of the article:
When the talk turned to her place in history, Steffi Graf, the most dominant female tennis player of this century, usually averted her eyes. ''Let other people be the judge of that,'' said Graf, who carried her lack of interest in statistics, feuds and records along with her into her abrupt and unheralded retirement last week.
and finally, i'm quoting you: "So, then I'm thinking what about Nav vs Graf as all-round, complete tennis players."
Navratilova certainly has a better record on grass, but Graf dominated on all surfaces (winning every major at least 4 times). that tells me that all around - she was a better player and deserves the title of GOAT.
(i didn't address the doubles/mixed comments since it's irrelevant).
I concede that Graf has the more even record at the four majors - that was one of the stats I had down in Graf's favour. In that sense Graf is better "all round", in terms of playing surface, but in the sense of being the most complete tennis player (singles, doubles etc) Martina is GOAT.
(And who made you the umpire of what's relevant/irrelevant? ;)
OK, I think we've both set out our stalls and failed to convince the other. Probably have to agree to differ. I can see why you've gone with Graf based on what you count as 'relevant' stats, so it's probably the definition of what constitutes GOAT that we'd need to agree on first. But I give in. I'm exhausted. I'm too old. You win :)
I like Graf more, and nothing will ever make me believe she is not the best. That said, i admit that i am completely bias and my arguement is clouded by emotion. But I believe it's impossible to compare, there are simply so many statistcal arguemts to support both players. THe same goes when you compare their games, Graf has the fhand and the speed, Nav has the net game to end all net games. I think we're just lucky we got to see them play eachother at such strong points in their career.
Well, I'm obviously biased towards Martina and agree the stats can be used to support either player :) They are both all time greats. I just wish the age difference had been less so they could have played each other more often and on a more even footing. I do honestly believe that the Martina of '83-6 would have overpowered Steffi even in her prime but we'll never know.
besides her "Golden Slam", steffi also has a non-calender GS in 1993-1994.
and if you compare the no. of "Small Slam"s (winning 3 of the 4 events), Navratilova has 2 (1983+1984) while Graf has 4 (89, 93, 95 and 96 - not counting 88!).
Never heard of a 'small slam'. Sounds disappointing. But if you're looking for the most dominant season ever, Martina has that record - in fact 2 of top 3 seasons ever. She posted longest winning streak ever (74) lost one match, then went on to win another 54! She lost just 6 matches in three years ('82-84). Graf was nowhere near that invincible even in her best years.
if you compare Graf and Navratilova's no. of titles with their main "nemesis",
Navratilova-Evert 167-154
Graf-Seles 107-53.
and if u argue that seles didn't play for a 2 year period, lets take the female tennis player who has the most titles besides Graf who played during the same tour format (Davenport), it is 107-55.
Evert was a far greater player than Davenport and Seles was stabbed when No.1, out of the game for 2 years and never quite the same player. If anything, this kind of supports my argument that Graf didn't have as much competition, if Davenport is her closest contemporary rival in tour titles.
Anwyay, no need for far-fetched comparisons with other players, when Martina has the edge over Graf in THEIR H2H. (9-9, yes but 5-4 to Martina in GS and she won more sets/games overall)!
However, since 1988, where the new tour was founded, players played much less tournaments every year, 1) bcz it required a lot of traveling (and in Graf's early career her dad limited the no. of tour she played), and 2) the rankings were calculated based on fewer tournaments.
Maybe so but Martina still had to win all those tournaments and deal with the wear and tear of a busier schedule. Don't think you can really deny Nav that record, just because Graf (or her dad) chose to play fewer tournaments.
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I don't want to make it sound like it isn't a great acheivment to win 177 titles, but since the draws back then included far less rounds, and the fact that over 130 of Navratilova's titles were held in North America (i counted!) - comparing it to Graf doesn't do Graf justice (and i'm leaving the dad arguement aside).
I think the comparison is a little bit misleading, bcz during most of Navratilova's career, before the formation of the tour that exists todays, tennis tournaments had a draw of 32 players the most! and most of them where held in the US, thus enabling Martina to play far more tournaments a year (for ex. in 1973, Margaret Court won 18 singles titles!). besides, there were barely 200 pro. female tennis players until 1980.
I havent seen the Becker VS Lendal final in 89 up her so I gues i need ot upload it? I have it from the beginning.. 5 sets in all. awsome match.. best final i remember.
In 18 matches, each of Graf and Navratilova won 9 times. They are both 2 of the best players of all time. I think if Seles did not get that stabbing in the back, she would have posed a greater threat to Graf.
Its been DOCUMENTED thru tv interviewed that graf is JEALOUS of these women winning ANY GS, not only WIMBL, or them getting thru the finals.
AGAIN......ARGUING, HUSTLING, HARASSING people here on Utube, whether here on leaving a msg on their channel is like competing in the SPECIAL OLYMPICS, if you win, youre STILL ( AND ALWAYS WILL BE ) retarded !!
2/2 And did I say, JEALOUS graf? Wimb '94 & US Open '94. She had a back injury, on an interviewed, SOO jealous that Sanches VIcario went to these finals, cause she knows she "should" be there winning ( in monicas absent) and not ASV. did the same thing to kimiko date Wimbl the ffg year.
By the way, Lori Mcneil went all the way to the semis of Wimb '93.
Stefanie - gets really angry & bitter if & when her Bhand ( realiable, but a liability & weak ) gets attacked by most power player as, davenport, seles, williamses among others, she get the "round around" from side 2 side. Play the 4hand, attacked d Bhand, they know how 2 "play" her.
Disrespectful Graf? when he lost to Lori McNeil, W93 1st rd she was asked if Lori would go all d way 2 d final, she said: "No, not even d 4th rd!" damn, she just beat u badly! in 2 sets!
Navratilova - gets really annoyed and angry if and when her Bhand gets attacked. Complaint after complaint re: today's power game, complaint about how racket became SOO powerful.
of course seles is the best of all time. who cares about the statistics: so graf won 22 GS, more than any male or female in the open era, the only player who won 4 titles at each GS and the only player to win a "golden slam"; and was a record 8 times year end no. 1, more than any male or female in the open era; was a record 377 weeks at no. 1, more than any male or female in the open era; and more...
who cares about that - seles was stabbed, and that makes her the best of all time!
I agree it has to be based on stats. But if you make grand slam singles the criterion, surely Margaret Court has to be best ever with 24 GS (2 more than Graf) and a calendar slam? Personally I think it has to be based on a player's whole record both in GS and (to lesser extent) other events; on win:loss ratios; on H2H with main rivals; on longevity (how competitive over time); and doubles counts for something - part of the complete, all-round player. For that reason, Martina is my GOAT.
i'm sorry, but doubles hardly count for anything. for ex. look at Pam Shriver (21 GS in doubles) and Natasha Zvereva (17 GS), i bet u don't even know who they are :)
If you want to base it on stats, Graf is superior by far - she broke every record possible (most GS titles, most weeks at no. 1, most times ranked no. 1 at year end, won every GS titles at least 4 times, most Tier I titles and on and on). and all the records i listed are still valid for men's tennis.
Obviously I'm not referring to doubles specialists who haven't got a great singles record. (Though you'd have to be a tennis ignoramus not to know who Shriver and Zvereva are ;)
But where the two main contenders to greatest ever (Navratilova and Graf) both have incredible singles records, so that it's hard to choose between them, then doubles also enters into the equation.
To be considered GOAT, you need to be a complete player - so why would you totally discount skill in doubles?
come on, i don't think that you even believe that doubles tennis somewhat reflects on your skills in singles. not to be too disrespecful, but if navratilova can win doubles matches in the age of almost 50, it shows a lot more about the quality of doubles tennis rather than on her own abilities....
I don't think you've got my point - which is that where two champions have similarly great singles records (as Graf and Navratilova do) then their record in doubles comes into the judgement of who is the greatest ever. That seems reasonable.
Leaving aside doubles for the moment, what do you think of Martina's better H2H record in singles against Graf?
Most GS titles is not Graf, in singles or doubles.
The record for most GS singles titles ever (24) belongs to Margaret Court. She won 62 GS titles overall (24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles), again, more than any other player.
The all-time record for most GS women's doubles titles belongs to Navratilova (31 titles), who won 59 GS titles in total, second only to Court.
Graf won 22 GS singles titles (second to Court) and 1 GS doubles - so 23 GS titles in total.
OK, so Graf doesn't have record for most GS titles - that's a fact. Nor does she hold the record at any individual slam.
At Wimbledon, arguably the most prestigious slam, Navratilova holds the all-time record of 9 singles (Graf 7), and 20 titles overall (Graf 8). Martina is certainly the greatest grass court player ever, as Graf herself has conceded in interview...
You misunderstand. I'm not championing Margaret Court as the best ever. My point is that the number of GS wins isn't the only criterion for deciding greatest ever. If it was, she would be GOAT.
And btw, Court's pre-open era grand slams still count towards that record. Players changed status from amateur to professional but they were still the same players! You make it sound like she was playing one group of amateurs pre-'68 and another group of professionals from then on.
you need to freshen up your history a little bit. it is exactly what i'm saying. even worst - bcz pro. players were bound by contract, even during the beginning of the open era, prior to the formation of the ATP, pro. players were forced not to attend certain events bcz of rivalry between the ITF (which manages the GS's) and the Pro tour.
OK, how long did that last for - 1 year or so? By the time Court won her grand slam in '70 I thought all players were professional, but correct me if I'm wrong.
it lasted if i recall correctly until 1977, when the ATP was founded. it is a known fact that rod laver missed quite a few US Open events bcz of that (though that was during the open era)
That's the men. We're talking about women. As I understand it there was a battle between the new pro tour and the newly formed WTA (sponsored by Virginia Slims) around '71-'72. Don't think it affected Margaret Court's career for better or worse. Do you have other info?
This is a side issue really. When are you going to address the important point about Martina's equal or winning edge over Steffi in H2H? Doesn't really fit with your view of a super-dominant Graf does it.
It is no side issues. you said to stick to the stats. since the H2H between the two is not enough to determine which one is better, then you need to adress the other facts (and don't bring the non-singles stats. into it, bcz it is irrelavent imo).
where did i say that? their H2H is leveled at 9 each. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to say no other player comes close to graf records, just saying that hers are a little bit superior, thus should be considered the GOAT. martina comes in close second.... (and again, no doubles babble pls :-)
I think you have modified your position under pressure, before you said "Graf is superior by far - she broke every record possible", now you're saying Martina comes a close second.
Re: H2H, yes tied 9-9. But, as I say, Martina has the edge in grand slams (5-4) and also won more sets/games in their meetings overall. Just singles :-)
and waaaay to tired to prolong this discussion right now (it almost bed time and i haven't brushed my teeth yet ... mommy will get so mad, and when does she also hits hard forehands .... ;-)
Nav vs Graf stats - just singles okay :) Graf 22 overall GS; Nav 18 Nav 9 Wimbledon (6 in row); Graf 7 (3 in row) Graf 4 wins or more at each GS Graf 'golden slam'; Nav non-calendar slam (ITF) Nav 6 consecutive GS titles; Graf 5 consecutive Nav 32 GS finals; Graf 31 Graf 377 weeks at No.1; Nav 331 weeks Graf 8 times end of year 'world champion'; Nav 7 Nav 8 WTA tour championship; Graf 5 Nav best season ever (86-1) + 2 of top 3 seasons; Graf (86-2) Nav 167 titles all-time record; Graf 107
Nav top winning streak (74) and 3 of top 6; Graf (54)
Nav total wins 1442; Graf 902
Graf career winning percentage 88.7%; Nav 86.8%
Nav leads Graf 5-4 H2H in GS (9-9 overall)
At this point, I'm thinking it's a very close call - Nav was as dominating in '83-6 as Graf in '88-'91. But I'm influenced by the fact that Nav won their last GS meeting in '91, and 2 of last 4 meetings; also that 13 of their 18 H2Hs were after Nav was 30, older than the age at which Graf retired. That's real longevity.
Then you think about their main rivals. Nav started playing in the era of all-time greats Court and King, Evert was her greatest rival (18 GS singles each) when both in their prime, then Steffi and Seles at the end. Apart from Seles, who she played very late in her career, Nav has a winning h2h record over all her rivals and equals or slightly edges Graf. It's debatable, but I think most would agree that Graf didn't face that level of competition in her prime, once Seles was incapacitated.
Graf did faced that level of competition. first of, Court and King where at the end of their career when martina started dominating. i'd say her main rivals (apart from Graf) were Evert, Austin, Goolagong, Mandlikova and perhaps Wade.
Graf's were Arantxa Sanchez Vicario, Seles, Novotna, Sabatini, maybe Martinez and Hingis (from 1995).
Martina edges Graf 5-4 in GS meetings and in the number of sets/games won overall. I only mention that because some people seem to assume that Graf dominated Martina in H2H, which just isn't true.
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Martina won 15 of her 18 slams from 1982 to 1987. Goolagong was also totally washed up by then, Court was retired before Martina even won her first slam, King was 34 already when Martina won her first slam, and Austin was already badly injured by the time Martina finally won only her 3rd slam in early January 1982. Martina's real competition was only Chris and Hana that is it. Shriver was the perennial #4 during the Martina reign. This idea of great depth Martina faced is a fallacy.
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Martina turned pro in '75 when Court was still winning, BJ King was strong, Goolagong was a force and Evert dominant. In other words, she started her career playing against 3 of the all-time greats. Evert remained her greatest rival up to '88, i.e. she wasn't stabbed. Austin was also a real threat for about 3 years. Then she was up against Graf and Seles after the age of 30. Apart from Seles (who she played v late in her career) Martina has a superior H2H over all these great rivals.
So, then I'm thinking what about Nav vs Graf as all-round, complete tennis players. Now I agree that doubles isn't a real reflection of singles prowess but it requires a different set of tennis skills that the GOAT should possess.
Here Nav is undisputed best ever. As well as most singles titles of all time (167), she has most doubles ever (177) including a record 31 GS. With mixed, she has 354 titles overall, almost double her nearest rival King (179), and THREE times Graf's total (118).
Nav won singles and doubles a record 88 times at the same event.
In the '87 US Open she won the 'triple crown' of singles (beating Graf in straight sets), doubles, and mixed - only one of 3 women to achieve this.
She's also only one of 3 in history to own the GS 'boxed set' - i.e. all singles, doubles and mixed titles.
She's by far the oldest GS winner in history, taking the US Open mixed crown in 2006, a month short of her 50th birthday. Can you think of any other player capable of that?
So, when you look at Nav's overall record, as a singles player primarily but also with some regard to her incomparable doubles record achieved at the same tiem, then I think it's hard to deny that she is the GOAT.
tony trabert you are such an idiot, you suck and go back to the nursing home they put you in. Not only did u insult Steffi, you made martina think she would be a threat in future slams. tony go home and play with your pudding.
Well, Martina did Wimbledon the following year, so she was still a threat, and two years after this match beat Graf 7-6 6-7 6-4 in the US Open semis, so she had plenty of good tennis left in her.
head to head, they are tied 9-9 against each other, so steffi never killed her. navratilova is 13 years older than graf, and that record against her is remarkable. navratilova is still the best player all time, steffi 2nd, chris evert 3rd. And why say that martina is a bad baseliner? why not say that graf is a bad serve and volleyer? Is their styles of play.. leave it be.
martina is one of the best players of all time, but she comes a little short comparing to all of graf's records. and actually, the H2H makes the false impression which favors martina, sence most of her wins against graf were when graf was just starting her professional career, while martina was at her top of her game.
Really, in the 90's, they played each 4 times, and that record is 2-2, with Martina winning their only grand slam contest at the 91 US Open, and beating her again in 93, one year before she retired, and qell past her prime. There is no false impression there in their head to head. It is what it is. And no, most of her wins were not in the beginning of Grag's career when Martina was at her best. If you argue that, then I can very well say that most of Graf's wins were after Martina's prime
After her loss at FO 87 Navratilova never again played Graf on a slower surface.
Navratilova was 5-1 H2H until November 1986 when Graf was just 17,5 years old. After that Graf leads Martina 8-4 with 11 of those 12 matches on fast surfaces (grass, indoor, USO HC).
Martina's h2h rivalry with Graf can be broken down into 3 phases: '85-'87 where Martina dominated (7-3); '88-'89 where Graf dominated (4-0); and '91-'94 where they were even (2-2).
Overall 9-9. But crucially Martina has a 5-4 winning record over Graf in grand slams, the last in 1991. She also won more sets and games overall in their encounters.
When you consider that Martina was 30+ (older than the age at which Graf retired) for 13 of their meetings, her record is all the more extraordinary.
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You fail to even mention Steffi was 18 or younger at the time of 10 of her 18 meetings with Martina. Steffi was not an early phenom like Seles or Connoly, and Martina was a late bloomer so Steffi from 16-18 is a much bigger disadvantage than the very late blooming Martina at only 30 or 31.
Martina had only 2 slams at the time she turned 25 and didnt have the horrible injuries that ended Graf's career early so your comparision is dumb. Graf at 25 already had over 7 times the slams of Martina.
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1/1 Serenasass, this is old ground. Check out the posts below where I break down the h2h in detail. As you'll see, Martina was 2-2 with Graf from '91-'94, when Graf was in her 20s and Martina nudging 35. I don't buy this 'early/late bloom' argument anyway, it just allows you to discount the losses at either end and select the period that favours your player. So it ends up totally selective and partial. Basically, if you're playing on the tour, your results count.
Navratilova is the greatest player of all time. remember here she is 13 years older than Graf - the best match you could ever have would be Graf v Martina when they were both at their peak!
When you take a lead on Steffi she gets angry and she starts to hit harder and come back. Martina made Steffi angry by taking the lead and Graf made her pay by coming back to win.
I love Steffi, but gotta give Martina lot's of credit, she beat Steffi a cpl yrs later in the 91 semi here, so it's not a matter of whether she could play w/Graf, Graf was
Martina is a sore loser, she showed it every time she lost, early 80's she did what Sampras did in the 90's, milked the cow on a weak competition, and history will always showed this with the both players.
leverwork1 1 month ago
I was hoping for a complete and total meltdown by Martina on the level with a Zvonoreva type episode.
LobOverTheBackhand 1 year ago
Wow, Martina really choked here.....i think this match shows that by 1989, Graf was slipping a bit...
...she had lost the French Open, had been pushed by 15 Year old Seles in the Semis, and here, 32 YO Martina just choked it away and Graf was lucky......
But a great match by both.....
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
Yes, Steffi was slipping in 1989 with a 86-2 win/loss record.
While Seles was dominating in 1992 with a 70-5 record.
Oh, wait ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
Comment removed
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
LOL ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
Really? You don't think she was slipping?
Thats funny.....because this match is the LAST TIME Graf would win the USOpen....for FOUR Years, only AFTER the stabbing of Monica Seles....
Thats right.....Graf would lose the 1990 US Open, 1991 US Open (to Martina.....) and the 1992 US Open........
I would call that a slip.......
But of course, during that period, Seles was the best in the world......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Some faggot wrote "i think this match shows that by 1989, Graf was slipping a bit...".
And no, no one thinks Steffi was slipping in a year in which she won 86 of 88 matches. And no one thinks the USO 89 final showed her slipping when she won the next 42 matches in a row.
Boy, you give fags a bad name - gay AND dumb ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Homohoffie, stop calling everyone on YouTube a fag.
Stop Projecting, Sissy.....
EVERYONE KNOWS YOU ARE GAY. You have an Alias, another screen name, "GrafGirl", and your page is dedicated to...
....WOMEN'S ICE SKATING......
LOL,LOL,LOL......
Holy Shit that is GAY! Why not just carry around a dildo in your man-purse wearing a Judy Garland T shirt, Miss?......
Listen Hoffie, it's fine to be Gay, but don't be a closet case....
And by the way, I bought you a lovely pink dress.
artisking1 1 year ago 2
@artisking1
I'm not calling "everyone" on youtube a fag.
I'm only calling you a faggot. Because you clearly are one.
Nothing wrong about that, though.
Your name ("artisking") and your obsession for gay icons Navratilova and Seles gave you away.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Hey, are you still still posting under "GrafGirl"? Is that what it is? Do you WANT to be a girl? Or do you want to just dress like a girl?
Do you want to be Steffi? Do you do Steffi in Drag? LOL.....
I'm truly interested. Your homepage is dedicated to "Women's Ice Skating". That isn't terribly heterosexual. Are you gay and in the closet?
I would love to see in drag. I have sent you a dress.
C'mon, Hoffie, Break down that Closet Door! Wear your dresses with Pride!
artisking1 1 year ago
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@artisking1
What is your obsession with this "GrafGirl", fag?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
It's your other screen name P*ssy....now don't be a coward, Homohoffie!
You already admitted to be "GrafGirl', so it isn't like you can go Back into the Closet......
Just come out, Bitch! Put on that dress and burst out of that Closet......
LOl, LOl, LOl
PS Do you do Steffi in Drag?
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
"Closet", "dresses" and "drag" - no wonder you are an expert in that, faggie boy ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
OOOOPPPPS, Little Sissy Hoffie is getting pissed!
Listen, Closet Case, why not post under "Grafgirl", you little Homo?
LOl, LOL, LOL......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1 In case you who don't yet know, Hoffenheim08 is the official,ordained High Priestess of the Cult of Steffi. He/She stalks youtube trashing all of Graf's main rivals(what rivals? Martina and Chrissie were a generation older and her one real rival, Monica Seles was stabbed and put out of commission by a Graf fan - a German). He goes for the throat of anyone who says anything negative about Steffi & writes under at least a half dozen other names. Usually abusive and obscene.
assindiastignani 3 months ago
@assindiastignani
i know...pretty sad isn't it.....i have found ELEVEN screen names so far....... absolutely pathetic.......
artisking1 3 months ago
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@artisking1 On the previous page, Fräulein Hoffenschleim writes: "... I don't think that Sabatini or Novotna would have needed two years to recover from a minor stabbing..." referring to Seles. A "minor" stabbing!!!!! Hello!! How sick is that?? Freud would pay this guy for the sessions.
assindiastignani 3 months ago
No the Sabatini and the other nobodies did not have Seles mental toughness that's why they lost to Graf in slam finals. Novotna had a lot of talent BUT she did not have the NERVE To win more slams. Novotna had the game to beat Graf but clearly was very mentally weak.
JordanjamesX 1 year ago
@JordanjamesX
But I don't think that Sabatini or Novotna would have needed two years to recover from a minor stabbing.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
watching these two legends is the perfect antidote to watching the women's game these days, miss the battles in grand slam finals between the greats - Graf, Navratilova, Seles, Evert.....
Hilly30 1 year ago
I was so upset when Martina started to choke that I had to leave the TV set and take a walk. This was probably one of the most devastating losses for Martina b/c the match was almost hers. A very sad day for Martina.
darius3000 1 year ago
@darius3000
Steffi MADE them choke in slam finals - Navratilova, Sabatini, Fernandez, Novotna, Sanchez, Hingis.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08 SHE HAD NO RIGHT
darius3000 1 year ago
They had a screen showing memories of Monica's comeback and great performances in Canada where she won 4 times in a row after the stabbing. It was a beautiful scene. It is great to see Monica now. She looks so fit, happy, and at peace. I so wish she had been able to get back in this shape in her post stabbing years too *sighs* but whats past is past I guess.
selesfan30 2 years ago
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The real greatest players ever:
Greatest grass court player ever- Navratilova
Greatest hard court player ever-
Monica Seles (would have won over 12 hard court slams if she wasnt stabbed)
Greatest clay court player ever- Monica Seles (would have won 10 or more French Opens without the stabbing
Greatest overall player ever- Monica Seles
Greatest all surface player ever- Graf. Way better on clay than Martina, way better on grass than Monica or Chris.
selesfan30 2 years ago
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These are my greatest ever per surface to date:
Greatest female grass courter- Navratilova
Greatest female rebound ace player ever-
Seles (is tied for record there ignoring Court's inflated tally even with stabbing setback)
Greatest female clay courter- Evert
Greatest female decoturf player- for now Graf, soon Serena
Greatest female carpet player ever- Navratilova
Greatest all surface player ever- Graf
Greatest overall- Navratilova or Court, someday Serena I hope
serenakicksass 2 years ago
I completely agree with your analysis.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
You and Serenakicksass would have liked watching todays doubles match to Open the Canadian Open. It was Seles and Canada's top player Wozniak vs Serena and Martina. It was just a fun doubles set, nothing serious, but it was great to see all 3 legends of different generations on court together. Seles was inducted into the Canadian tennis hall of fame today on Opening Day of the Rogers Cup event in Toronto. The doubles set was preceding it. I am Canadian so saw it all on TSN.
selesfan30 2 years ago
Yes, that sounds fun. Who won the set??
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Serena and Navratilova won the set 6-3.
selesfan30 2 years ago
serenakicksass, the AO was played on grass until 1988, so court couldn't have been the greatest on rebound ace anyway!
saar144 2 years ago
You are right. Still with the home crowd factor she probably would have dominated on any surface even if everyone had played there back then. Atleast winning 7 even if King, Bueno and all the rest played every year and even if it were on rebound ace.
serenakicksass 2 years ago
Nicklas do you do anything all day except post on youtube videos trying to brainwash everyone that your beloved Martina is the greatest ever with all your twisted and manipulated stats. Everytime I pass by a tennis video with any of Martina, Evert, Graf, Seles, on it I see 100 posts by you a day about "my lover MN this" "my beloved MN that". Seriously get a life. Navratilova doesnt even know you exist loser.
serenakicksass 2 years ago
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Oh, thats sweet coming from someone who defines him/herself as serenakicksas. Sorry, dont let my facts and figures spoil your fun ;) I have been a bit long-winded admittedly. I'll rein it in.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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2/2
cont'd...
One way to deflect the unwanted attention from herself was to laud her respected rival and predecessor at the top, Martina Navratilova, as the century's most notable player. Yesterday Graf, whose decadelong rivalry with Navratilova ended in a 9-9 stalemate, did just that. ''For me she is the uncontested No. 1; she has left a mark on the sport like no one else,''
and it ends with the words of BJ King: ''Steffi is definitely the greatest women's tennis player of all time.''
saar144 2 years ago
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Hello again. I have said in another post that Steffi was probably just being modest here and that Navratilova has said similarly generous things about Graf. I also gave the reference so people could check out the article for themselves - didn't want to reproduce the whole thing on here ;) It was a pro-Graf article that came out just after her retirement. Nevertheless, those were Steffi's exact words and I thought they were worth quoting if only to show the respect she had for Martina's game.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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As for BJ King's comment, that may have been her view in 1999, but she revised it by 2006 when she declared Navratilova "the greatest singles, doubles, and mixed doubles player there has ever been."
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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The greatest FEMALE player, which means on the list of the all-time greatest PLAYERS her ranking is around #1,000.
mangrovesea 2 years ago
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Sorry, slight misquote: "She's the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player who's ever lived". Referenced in Wikipedia if you want the context.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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and of course their close friendship has nothing to do with that. and it was a pro-Martina article that came out just agter ger second retirement!
:-)
saar144 2 years ago
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So you credit BJK when she favours your heroine and discredit her when she favours mine...nice one! ;) Going back to Steffi's tribute to Martina - you know, she didn't have to say anything at all on the subject, she could easily have deflected the question of who's greatest by saying 'that's for others to decide' or similar. Really I think the quote is interesting because it shows how much genuine respect Steffi & Martina had for each other - something you see little of in this tribal forum ;)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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With only 18 slams, no grand slam and only 2 FO's?
Most people don't think so ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
Greatest female hard court player ever: Steffi Graf
Greatest female clay court player ever:
Chris Evert
Greatest female grass court player ever: Martina Navratilova
Greatest female all surface singles player ever: Steffi Graf
Greatest female doubles player ever: Navratilova or Court
I would leave it at that I guess.
muffycat26 2 years ago
mmm, if Graf is the greatest hard court player ever, why does she have a losing h2h to Navratilova on hard courts and a 3-1 losing record to Navratilova at the US Open (on hard court)?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
If Navratilova is the greatest hard court player ever why does she have fewer hard court slams than Graf, Seles, and Serena. If the Aussie Open was on slow hard courts then Martina would still have less, unless you think she was going to win more on slow hard courts than she did on grass there, and she would have less than Evert now also if the U.S Open were on hard courts instead of clay from 75-77. Martina is far from the best hard courter ever.
selesfan30 2 years ago
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I don't think I said that Navratilova was the best hard court player ever. Just challenging Muffycat's assertion that Graf was the greatest hard courter ever - which is debatable, wouldn't you agree, given her losing record to Navratilova on this surface?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Now onto Graf no I dont believe Martina is better than Graf on hard courts just because of their head to head. At the U.S Open from 85-87 Martina was much closer to her prime than Graf so was supposed to beat her. Yes an old Martina did upset prime Graf once there in 91. However that alone doesnt put Martina over Graf on hard courts for me. Graf won more U.S Opens, and would have definitely won more Australians anyway. I hate Graf with a passion so am certainly not biased to her.
selesfan30 2 years ago
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Ultimately the greatest hard court player ever is neither Graf or Navratilova though I feel. I definitely think it is Seles or Serena Williams. Serena Williams is on her way to a huge total of hard court slams. Seles would have been on her way to a double digit total of hard court slams without Mr. Parche. So for me it isbetween those two.
selesfan30 2 years ago
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Martina missed the Australian Open between '76-'79 (when it was played on grass) having reached the final in '75, and also in '86. She might well have won more but in those days the AO wasn't considered so important.
I don't agree that she would have less than Evert now if the USO were on hard courts instead of clay from '75-77. The reverse: clay suited Evert 's game more than Navratilova's.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Navratilova would not have won anything in 76 or 77. She was in the final in 75 since it was a depleted field as always in Australia the but was destroyed by Goolagong. In 76 and 77 she lost to Evert at Wimbldon (not a bad loss) but also Betty Stove. 78 she barely beat Evert at Wimbledon, she wasnt ever going to beat her on slow hard courts. 79 she couldt get a set off Austin on fast hard courts at the U.S Open. So no there isnt a year from 76-79 she would have won the AO on rebound ace.
selesfan30 2 years ago
Continuing on based on all of that her only chances to win the Australian Open on rebound ace like it is today would have been the years she did win it- 81, 83, and 85. However Evert was even older than Martina in 88 and destroyed her in their first meeting on rebound ace. That match is telliing. I would say she maybe gets 1 or 2 Aussies on rebound ace to go with her 4 U.S Opens so has less than all those I mentioned in that case.
selesfan30 2 years ago
Now onto Evert at the U.S Open, Chris Evert was by far the games dominant player in 75-77. You seem to forget this period was not the Martina reign, it was the Chris reign. I think she probably wins all 3 even on fast hard courts. Chris's biggest threats around then were Goolagong and an aging King on grass, that is it pretty much, even on hard courts I dont see those two or anyone else having much chance to beat her those few years.
selesfan30 2 years ago
selesfan30, 3 of 6 of evert's USO titles were won on clay.
and seles never won against graf on deco turf (h2h 3-0 to graf)
saar144 2 years ago
Dumb logic. Based on that logic Graf would be the greatest grass court player ever and not Navratilova since she leads her 2-1. Based on that logic Nadal is a better hard court player than Federer since he is 3-1 vs Federer on outdoor hard courts, LOL! Based on that logic Blake is better than Nadal with his 3-2 head to head. Based on that logic Conchita Martinez is better than Navratilova since she is 4-1 lifetime vs her and Jo Durie is better than Steffi Graf since she is 4-3 vs her.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
Calm down, dear. I didn't say that Navratilova was the greatest hard court player ever, just pointing out the fact that she has a winning H2H record on hard courts vs Graf and at USO.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Well I still consider Graf as superior to her on hard courts despite that. :) No need to ask how I can still think that, my examples should suffice.
And if you want to know why:
-1 more title at the U.S Open, and less "bad" losses in her prime ( eg- Martina losing to Shriver twice). I am roughly counting Martina 78-87 and Graf 87-96 by the way
-although rebound ace didnt come until Martina was aging, I suspect the difference on this surface between the two would be even more
hairbrush81 2 years ago
I probably have to agree with you considering their complete records at the US and Aussie Opens :) I always felt that Navratilova slightly underachieved at USO, even though she won 4, because of her close final losses to Austin, Mandlikova, and Shriver. Plus she was 6-2, 4-2 against Graf in 1989 and kinda crumbled (or Graf raised her game, whatever). I feel she was good enough to win 5 or 6 but fell short.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Well the funny thing is if she had won that 89 final it would be almost impossible to put Graf over her on hard courts. It would now be 5-4 at the U. S Open and 5-0 head to head in hard court slams. That match made a big difference. I agree Martina should have won that match. Graf herself maybe feels she should have won the 86 semis where she had 3 match points, but the 86 was more a toss up match while the 89 one was clear cut Martina should have won given her lead.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
I think Hana in 85 was in the zone. I think she was going to beat anyone that particular event probably. Martina did well to fight back from small deficits a number of times to make it so close. Her 2 losses to Shriver were dissapointing. Shriver is a solid player and very underrated, but I think Martina has only lost 3 out of 40 matches to her so shouldnt have lost to her twice at the Open . Then again both times she was going to have to play Evert which is no gimme, especialy in 78.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
Lastly Tracy Austin is a great player who was seriously challenging for #1 vs Evert and Navratilova but Martina definitely should have won that 81 final which she controlled almost the whole way but Austin was tough as nails on the big points (which is her trademark) and Martina got a bit tight.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
Yep, I think that was Martina's big weakness - nerves. She could go from arrogance to panic with nothing in between. Court also apparently suffered from nerves on the big occasion (e.g. the Riggs fiasco) though her slam record doesn't show it. I think Evert and Graf were much more steely competitors.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Court's Wimbledon record shows her nerves clearly. Only 3 Wimbledons with a grass court specialist with a monstrous serve/volley and power game. When she played the pretty popular younger Goolagong in the 71 final (although Goolagong did go on to become a great player with 7 slams and many other finals) she was clearly unnerved by the crowd passionately rooting for her countrywomen and against her.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
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Martina had to build her body up to compensate for her mental fragility (this was her great weakness). Evert could get tentative and nervous at certain points in a match, but you never really remember her choking away a match. But Martina you do. And your second sentence was originally said by Renee Richards, not by you.
mangrovesea 2 years ago
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It was Ted Tinling who first coined the phrase:
"Martina's always going to have the storm; she's always going to underassess her opponent and underassess her own ability to handle it when the storm hits. She goes from arrogance to panic, with nothing in between."
I've seen it applied to several other players, e.g. Virginia Wade and Gabriela Sabatini.
And you agree with me about Martina's mental fragility - hardly an original observation ;)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
@Nicklas4500 I think it would be completely unfair to put Martina in the same category of mental weakness as Sabatini and Novotna though. You dont win 18 slams, 9 Wimbledons, and over 160 tournaments by being a chronic choker. I dont think she is as mentally tough as Evert, Graf, or Seles, but she is still not a pushover in that regard. She is prone to a bit of nerves on occasion but on the whole she is still very mentally tough. I am too young to have seen Wade much.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
I think martina's biggest flaw was she let her feelings show way too much on the court. and when she would get upset, her opponents could tell right away and that boosted their confidence.
saar144 1 year ago
Steffi on Martina: ''For me she is the uncontested No. 1; she has left a mark on the sport like no one else'' (NY Times, 18th Aug 1999)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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1/2
why don't you post the beginning of the article:
When the talk turned to her place in history, Steffi Graf, the most dominant female tennis player of this century, usually averted her eyes. ''Let other people be the judge of that,'' said Graf, who carried her lack of interest in statistics, feuds and records along with her into her abrupt and unheralded retirement last week.
saar144 2 years ago
HUH - Take that you infidel!!! Don't question Graf superiority ever again or i'll have my mother forehand you!!
:-)
saar144 2 years ago
So you are Steffi's lovechild? I suspected so! ;-)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
and finally, i'm quoting you: "So, then I'm thinking what about Nav vs Graf as all-round, complete tennis players."
Navratilova certainly has a better record on grass, but Graf dominated on all surfaces (winning every major at least 4 times). that tells me that all around - she was a better player and deserves the title of GOAT.
(i didn't address the doubles/mixed comments since it's irrelevant).
saar144 2 years ago
I concede that Graf has the more even record at the four majors - that was one of the stats I had down in Graf's favour. In that sense Graf is better "all round", in terms of playing surface, but in the sense of being the most complete tennis player (singles, doubles etc) Martina is GOAT.
(And who made you the umpire of what's relevant/irrelevant? ;)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
OK, I think we've both set out our stalls and failed to convince the other. Probably have to agree to differ. I can see why you've gone with Graf based on what you count as 'relevant' stats, so it's probably the definition of what constitutes GOAT that we'd need to agree on first. But I give in. I'm exhausted. I'm too old. You win :)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
I like Graf more, and nothing will ever make me believe she is not the best. That said, i admit that i am completely bias and my arguement is clouded by emotion. But I believe it's impossible to compare, there are simply so many statistcal arguemts to support both players. THe same goes when you compare their games, Graf has the fhand and the speed, Nav has the net game to end all net games. I think we're just lucky we got to see them play eachother at such strong points in their career.
Ineddiblehulk 2 years ago
Well, I'm obviously biased towards Martina and agree the stats can be used to support either player :) They are both all time greats. I just wish the age difference had been less so they could have played each other more often and on a more even footing. I do honestly believe that the Martina of '83-6 would have overpowered Steffi even in her prime but we'll never know.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
about the GS records:
besides her "Golden Slam", steffi also has a non-calender GS in 1993-1994.
and if you compare the no. of "Small Slam"s (winning 3 of the 4 events), Navratilova has 2 (1983+1984) while Graf has 4 (89, 93, 95 and 96 - not counting 88!).
saar144 2 years ago
Never heard of a 'small slam'. Sounds disappointing. But if you're looking for the most dominant season ever, Martina has that record - in fact 2 of top 3 seasons ever. She posted longest winning streak ever (74) lost one match, then went on to win another 54! She lost just 6 matches in three years ('82-84). Graf was nowhere near that invincible even in her best years.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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You never heard of "small slam" but you know what "boxed set" is? ;-) well, it is a known pharse to tennis-fan veteran like myself :)
and i could only wish to be the lovechild of Graf.
Hi, Steffi, if you're looking to adopt, i'm willing!!
saar144 2 years ago
if you compare Graf and Navratilova's no. of titles with their main "nemesis",
Navratilova-Evert 167-154
Graf-Seles 107-53.
and if u argue that seles didn't play for a 2 year period, lets take the female tennis player who has the most titles besides Graf who played during the same tour format (Davenport), it is 107-55.
so tell me who has the edge...
saar144 2 years ago
Evert was a far greater player than Davenport and Seles was stabbed when No.1, out of the game for 2 years and never quite the same player. If anything, this kind of supports my argument that Graf didn't have as much competition, if Davenport is her closest contemporary rival in tour titles.
Anwyay, no need for far-fetched comparisons with other players, when Martina has the edge over Graf in THEIR H2H. (9-9, yes but 5-4 to Martina in GS and she won more sets/games overall)!
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
No. of titles (1 of 2):
However, since 1988, where the new tour was founded, players played much less tournaments every year, 1) bcz it required a lot of traveling (and in Graf's early career her dad limited the no. of tour she played), and 2) the rankings were calculated based on fewer tournaments.
saar144 2 years ago
Maybe so but Martina still had to win all those tournaments and deal with the wear and tear of a busier schedule. Don't think you can really deny Nav that record, just because Graf (or her dad) chose to play fewer tournaments.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I don't want to make it sound like it isn't a great acheivment to win 177 titles, but since the draws back then included far less rounds, and the fact that over 130 of Navratilova's titles were held in North America (i counted!) - comparing it to Graf doesn't do Graf justice (and i'm leaving the dad arguement aside).
saar144 2 years ago
No. of titles (1 of 2):
I think the comparison is a little bit misleading, bcz during most of Navratilova's career, before the formation of the tour that exists todays, tennis tournaments had a draw of 32 players the most! and most of them where held in the US, thus enabling Martina to play far more tournaments a year (for ex. in 1973, Margaret Court won 18 singles titles!). besides, there were barely 200 pro. female tennis players until 1980.
saar144 2 years ago
i hate that term "doubles specialists" :-)
there is no such thing. "singles unspecialists" is more like it.
saar144 2 years ago
That's shows immaturity ;-) but I know what you mean. I'm rather liking you.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
I havent seen the Becker VS Lendal final in 89 up her so I gues i need ot upload it? I have it from the beginning.. 5 sets in all. awsome match.. best final i remember.
belcherman 2 years ago
Youre JEALOUS ! perfectly PATHETIC, IMMATURE, a RETARD, MISERY LOVIN' SCRUB ! if youre a fan of graf, go and make a vid of her.
goahidandfackyahsilves!!
rehabboy01 2 years ago
In 18 matches, each of Graf and Navratilova won 9 times. They are both 2 of the best players of all time. I think if Seles did not get that stabbing in the back, she would have posed a greater threat to Graf.
Boudosaved 3 years ago
Martina had a million excuses as to why she lost a match. She was (and still is) VERY annoying.
RaleighNC306 3 years ago
**** HOFFENHEIM8 ****
Its been DOCUMENTED thru tv interviewed that graf is JEALOUS of these women winning ANY GS, not only WIMBL, or them getting thru the finals.
AGAIN......ARGUING, HUSTLING, HARASSING people here on Utube, whether here on leaving a msg on their channel is like competing in the SPECIAL OLYMPICS, if you win, youre STILL ( AND ALWAYS WILL BE ) retarded !!
rehabboy01 3 years ago
2/2 And did I say, JEALOUS graf? Wimb '94 & US Open '94. She had a back injury, on an interviewed, SOO jealous that Sanches VIcario went to these finals, cause she knows she "should" be there winning ( in monicas absent) and not ASV. did the same thing to kimiko date Wimbl the ffg year.
By the way, Lori Mcneil went all the way to the semis of Wimb '93.
rehabboy01 3 years ago
I don't think Graf is jealous of Seles, ASV, McNeil and Date types.
Players who have a combined zero Wimbledon title compared to Graf's 7 ...
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
1/2
Stefanie - gets really angry & bitter if & when her Bhand ( realiable, but a liability & weak ) gets attacked by most power player as, davenport, seles, williamses among others, she get the "round around" from side 2 side. Play the 4hand, attacked d Bhand, they know how 2 "play" her.
Disrespectful Graf? when he lost to Lori McNeil, W93 1st rd she was asked if Lori would go all d way 2 d final, she said: "No, not even d 4th rd!" damn, she just beat u badly! in 2 sets!
rehabboy01 3 years ago
rehabboy01, writing in CAPITALS won't make you ANY LESS WRONG!!
and get your facts straight - graf won W93, her 1st round loss was in 1994.
and if anyone is disrespectful, angry or bitter - it's navratilova - just read all her comments about the williams sisters.
saar144 2 years ago
These two....
Graf an ANGRY, BITTER, DISRECTFUL player.
while....
Navratilova - gets really annoyed and angry if and when her Bhand gets attacked. Complaint after complaint re: today's power game, complaint about how racket became SOO powerful.
rehabboy01 3 years ago
How's Steffi been disrespectful, angry or bitter? They are both fantastic champions and always be.
roshstube 3 years ago
You sound like the one who is angry, bitter, and - learn to spell - disrespectful.
atomcrush 2 years ago
monica is the greatest player of all time then steffi then martina.....
flyingshaneo 3 years ago
Greatest player?
With no Wimbledon title?
With 5 losses even in her best season ever (1992)?
With 3 losses in 4 matches against Graf in her two best seasons (1991/92)?
With being 5-10 against Graf and 5-15 against Hingis in H2H?
I don't think so ...
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 4
of course seles is the best of all time. who cares about the statistics: so graf won 22 GS, more than any male or female in the open era, the only player who won 4 titles at each GS and the only player to win a "golden slam"; and was a record 8 times year end no. 1, more than any male or female in the open era; was a record 377 weeks at no. 1, more than any male or female in the open era; and more...
who cares about that - seles was stabbed, and that makes her the best of all time!
saar144 2 years ago
I agree it has to be based on stats. But if you make grand slam singles the criterion, surely Margaret Court has to be best ever with 24 GS (2 more than Graf) and a calendar slam? Personally I think it has to be based on a player's whole record both in GS and (to lesser extent) other events; on win:loss ratios; on H2H with main rivals; on longevity (how competitive over time); and doubles counts for something - part of the complete, all-round player. For that reason, Martina is my GOAT.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
i'm sorry, but doubles hardly count for anything. for ex. look at Pam Shriver (21 GS in doubles) and Natasha Zvereva (17 GS), i bet u don't even know who they are :)
If you want to base it on stats, Graf is superior by far - she broke every record possible (most GS titles, most weeks at no. 1, most times ranked no. 1 at year end, won every GS titles at least 4 times, most Tier I titles and on and on). and all the records i listed are still valid for men's tennis.
saar144 2 years ago
What is your response to Martina having the edge over Graf in H2H grand slam meetings (5-4) and winning more games/sets overall in their encounters?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Obviously I'm not referring to doubles specialists who haven't got a great singles record. (Though you'd have to be a tennis ignoramus not to know who Shriver and Zvereva are ;)
But where the two main contenders to greatest ever (Navratilova and Graf) both have incredible singles records, so that it's hard to choose between them, then doubles also enters into the equation.
To be considered GOAT, you need to be a complete player - so why would you totally discount skill in doubles?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
come on, i don't think that you even believe that doubles tennis somewhat reflects on your skills in singles. not to be too disrespecful, but if navratilova can win doubles matches in the age of almost 50, it shows a lot more about the quality of doubles tennis rather than on her own abilities....
saar144 2 years ago
I don't think you've got my point - which is that where two champions have similarly great singles records (as Graf and Navratilova do) then their record in doubles comes into the judgement of who is the greatest ever. That seems reasonable.
Leaving aside doubles for the moment, what do you think of Martina's better H2H record in singles against Graf?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Most GS titles is not Graf, in singles or doubles.
The record for most GS singles titles ever (24) belongs to Margaret Court. She won 62 GS titles overall (24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles), again, more than any other player.
The all-time record for most GS women's doubles titles belongs to Navratilova (31 titles), who won 59 GS titles in total, second only to Court.
Graf won 22 GS singles titles (second to Court) and 1 GS doubles - so 23 GS titles in total.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
OK, so Graf doesn't have record for most GS titles - that's a fact. Nor does she hold the record at any individual slam.
At Wimbledon, arguably the most prestigious slam, Navratilova holds the all-time record of 9 singles (Graf 7), and 20 titles overall (Graf 8). Martina is certainly the greatest grass court player ever, as Graf herself has conceded in interview...
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
and btw, Margaret Court won 13 of her GS titles before the open era, which means she played against amatures and not professionals.
saar144 2 years ago
and they where all played on grass (or at least 3 of the 4 GS)!!
(that's suppose to be a cont. comment re- Margaret Court)
saar144 2 years ago
You misunderstand. I'm not championing Margaret Court as the best ever. My point is that the number of GS wins isn't the only criterion for deciding greatest ever. If it was, she would be GOAT.
And btw, Court's pre-open era grand slams still count towards that record. Players changed status from amateur to professional but they were still the same players! You make it sound like she was playing one group of amateurs pre-'68 and another group of professionals from then on.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
you need to freshen up your history a little bit. it is exactly what i'm saying. even worst - bcz pro. players were bound by contract, even during the beginning of the open era, prior to the formation of the ATP, pro. players were forced not to attend certain events bcz of rivalry between the ITF (which manages the GS's) and the Pro tour.
saar144 2 years ago
OK, how long did that last for - 1 year or so? By the time Court won her grand slam in '70 I thought all players were professional, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
it lasted if i recall correctly until 1977, when the ATP was founded. it is a known fact that rod laver missed quite a few US Open events bcz of that (though that was during the open era)
saar144 2 years ago
That's the men. We're talking about women. As I understand it there was a battle between the new pro tour and the newly formed WTA (sponsored by Virginia Slims) around '71-'72. Don't think it affected Margaret Court's career for better or worse. Do you have other info?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
This is a side issue really. When are you going to address the important point about Martina's equal or winning edge over Steffi in H2H? Doesn't really fit with your view of a super-dominant Graf does it.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
It is no side issues. you said to stick to the stats. since the H2H between the two is not enough to determine which one is better, then you need to adress the other facts (and don't bring the non-singles stats. into it, bcz it is irrelavent imo).
saar144 2 years ago
So you agree that Martina has a slightly better H2H. That's important. We're getting somewhere at last ;)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
where did i say that? their H2H is leveled at 9 each. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to say no other player comes close to graf records, just saying that hers are a little bit superior, thus should be considered the GOAT. martina comes in close second.... (and again, no doubles babble pls :-)
saar144 2 years ago
I think you have modified your position under pressure, before you said "Graf is superior by far - she broke every record possible", now you're saying Martina comes a close second.
Re: H2H, yes tied 9-9. But, as I say, Martina has the edge in grand slams (5-4) and also won more sets/games in their meetings overall. Just singles :-)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
what can i say, i'm a pushover ... :)
and waaaay to tired to prolong this discussion right now (it almost bed time and i haven't brushed my teeth yet ... mommy will get so mad, and when does she also hits hard forehands .... ;-)
saar144 2 years ago
LOL. Luckily us old folks don't need sleep so I'll keep going with the stats...
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Nav top winning streak (74) and 3 of top 6; Graf (54)
Nav total wins 1442; Graf 902
Graf career winning percentage 88.7%; Nav 86.8%
Nav leads Graf 5-4 H2H in GS (9-9 overall)
At this point, I'm thinking it's a very close call - Nav was as dominating in '83-6 as Graf in '88-'91. But I'm influenced by the fact that Nav won their last GS meeting in '91, and 2 of last 4 meetings; also that 13 of their 18 H2Hs were after Nav was 30, older than the age at which Graf retired. That's real longevity.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Then you think about their main rivals. Nav started playing in the era of all-time greats Court and King, Evert was her greatest rival (18 GS singles each) when both in their prime, then Steffi and Seles at the end. Apart from Seles, who she played very late in her career, Nav has a winning h2h record over all her rivals and equals or slightly edges Graf. It's debatable, but I think most would agree that Graf didn't face that level of competition in her prime, once Seles was incapacitated.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
main rivals (1 of 2):
Graf did faced that level of competition. first of, Court and King where at the end of their career when martina started dominating. i'd say her main rivals (apart from Graf) were Evert, Austin, Goolagong, Mandlikova and perhaps Wade.
Graf's were Arantxa Sanchez Vicario, Seles, Novotna, Sabatini, maybe Martinez and Hingis (from 1995).
saar144 2 years ago
main rivals - H2H (2 of 2):
Navratilova-Evert: 43-37
Navratilova-Austin: 20-13
Navratilova-Mandlikova: 29-7
Navratilova-Goolagong: 15-12
Navratilova-Wade: 18-6
saar144 2 years ago
Graf-Seles: 10-5
Graf-Sabatini: 29-11
Graf-Sanchez Vicario: 28-8
Graf-Martinez: 13-1
Graf-Hingis: 7-2
Graf-Navratilova: 9-9
where does Navratilova edge Graf exactly?
saar144 2 years ago
Martina edges Graf 5-4 in GS meetings and in the number of sets/games won overall. I only mention that because some people seem to assume that Graf dominated Martina in H2H, which just isn't true.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Martina won 15 of her 18 slams from 1982 to 1987. Goolagong was also totally washed up by then, Court was retired before Martina even won her first slam, King was 34 already when Martina won her first slam, and Austin was already badly injured by the time Martina finally won only her 3rd slam in early January 1982. Martina's real competition was only Chris and Hana that is it. Shriver was the perennial #4 during the Martina reign. This idea of great depth Martina faced is a fallacy.
serenakicksass 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Martina turned pro in '75 when Court was still winning, BJ King was strong, Goolagong was a force and Evert dominant. In other words, she started her career playing against 3 of the all-time greats. Evert remained her greatest rival up to '88, i.e. she wasn't stabbed. Austin was also a real threat for about 3 years. Then she was up against Graf and Seles after the age of 30. Apart from Seles (who she played v late in her career) Martina has a superior H2H over all these great rivals.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Martina won her first slam in 1978.
Court had retired 3 years before. King was 34 years old.
Goolagong hadn't won a slam outside of Australia for 7 years (in a time when most top players didn't play the AO).
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
So, then I'm thinking what about Nav vs Graf as all-round, complete tennis players. Now I agree that doubles isn't a real reflection of singles prowess but it requires a different set of tennis skills that the GOAT should possess.
Here Nav is undisputed best ever. As well as most singles titles of all time (167), she has most doubles ever (177) including a record 31 GS. With mixed, she has 354 titles overall, almost double her nearest rival King (179), and THREE times Graf's total (118).
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
As well as most singles titles ever (167), Nav also won the most women's doubles ever (177) and a record 31 doubles grand slams .
Combined singles and doubles was 354 titles, double her nearest rival King and exactly THREE times Graf's total (118).
While creating the longest winning streak in singles (74) she simultaneously built the longest winning streak in doubles (109) in '83-85.
At the same time as winning a record 6 grand slam singles in a row, Nav won the grand slam in doubles.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Nav won singles and doubles a record 88 times at the same event.
In the '87 US Open she won the 'triple crown' of singles (beating Graf in straight sets), doubles, and mixed - only one of 3 women to achieve this.
She's also only one of 3 in history to own the GS 'boxed set' - i.e. all singles, doubles and mixed titles.
She's by far the oldest GS winner in history, taking the US Open mixed crown in 2006, a month short of her 50th birthday. Can you think of any other player capable of that?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
So, when you look at Nav's overall record, as a singles player primarily but also with some regard to her incomparable doubles record achieved at the same tiem, then I think it's hard to deny that she is the GOAT.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
tony trabert you are such an idiot, you suck and go back to the nursing home they put you in. Not only did u insult Steffi, you made martina think she would be a threat in future slams. tony go home and play with your pudding.
CandyPerfumeBoy82 3 years ago
Well, Martina did Wimbledon the following year, so she was still a threat, and two years after this match beat Graf 7-6 6-7 6-4 in the US Open semis, so she had plenty of good tennis left in her.
MirjanaLfan 3 years ago
head to head, they are tied 9-9 against each other, so steffi never killed her. navratilova is 13 years older than graf, and that record against her is remarkable. navratilova is still the best player all time, steffi 2nd, chris evert 3rd. And why say that martina is a bad baseliner? why not say that graf is a bad serve and volleyer? Is their styles of play.. leave it be.
nordna 3 years ago
martina is one of the best players of all time, but she comes a little short comparing to all of graf's records. and actually, the H2H makes the false impression which favors martina, sence most of her wins against graf were when graf was just starting her professional career, while martina was at her top of her game.
saar144 3 years ago 5
Really, in the 90's, they played each 4 times, and that record is 2-2, with Martina winning their only grand slam contest at the 91 US Open, and beating her again in 93, one year before she retired, and qell past her prime. There is no false impression there in their head to head. It is what it is. And no, most of her wins were not in the beginning of Grag's career when Martina was at her best. If you argue that, then I can very well say that most of Graf's wins were after Martina's prime
nordna 3 years ago
After her loss at FO 87 Navratilova never again played Graf on a slower surface.
Navratilova was 5-1 H2H until November 1986 when Graf was just 17,5 years old. After that Graf leads Martina 8-4 with 11 of those 12 matches on fast surfaces (grass, indoor, USO HC).
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
"And no, most of her wins were not in the beginning of Grag's career when Martina was at her best".
yes it was - before 1987, their H2H was 5-1 to martina. and if u include 1987, it's 7-3. it is what it is.
saar144 2 years ago
Martina's h2h rivalry with Graf can be broken down into 3 phases: '85-'87 where Martina dominated (7-3); '88-'89 where Graf dominated (4-0); and '91-'94 where they were even (2-2).
Overall 9-9. But crucially Martina has a 5-4 winning record over Graf in grand slams, the last in 1991. She also won more sets and games overall in their encounters.
When you consider that Martina was 30+ (older than the age at which Graf retired) for 13 of their meetings, her record is all the more extraordinary.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You fail to even mention Steffi was 18 or younger at the time of 10 of her 18 meetings with Martina. Steffi was not an early phenom like Seles or Connoly, and Martina was a late bloomer so Steffi from 16-18 is a much bigger disadvantage than the very late blooming Martina at only 30 or 31.
Martina had only 2 slams at the time she turned 25 and didnt have the horrible injuries that ended Graf's career early so your comparision is dumb. Graf at 25 already had over 7 times the slams of Martina.
serenakicksass 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
1/1 Serenasass, this is old ground. Check out the posts below where I break down the h2h in detail. As you'll see, Martina was 2-2 with Graf from '91-'94, when Graf was in her 20s and Martina nudging 35. I don't buy this 'early/late bloom' argument anyway, it just allows you to discount the losses at either end and select the period that favours your player. So it ends up totally selective and partial. Basically, if you're playing on the tour, your results count.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Comment removed
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
and vice versa; some of martinas wins came when she was on her decline and graf was at the top of her game
olaraay 3 years ago
is that sun glasses or prescription glasses?
dorker1992 3 years ago 2
Navratilova is the greatest player of all time. remember here she is 13 years older than Graf - the best match you could ever have would be Graf v Martina when they were both at their peak!
lcbrec 3 years ago
super steffi graf is a true champion and the greatest tennis player in the world.
wonderful memories!
leveryone 3 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Seles was better than Steffi!
championxeneixe 4 years ago
Seles was never better than Graf!!!
Graf is the best EVER!!!
Yurik1972 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Yes.Because Seles"s "Accident".Everybody knows that.
championxeneixe 4 years ago
bull. i wish all you grunting fans would stop bringing the "accident" into it.
AB5309 3 years ago
I really wasn't a Navratilova fan,
but she was a good sport
mrbunny74 4 years ago 2
GRAF IS THE BEST ALL THE TIME
egg1080 4 years ago
There is really no doubt about it, Graf was the best. Her fore-hand was awesome, saw her several tmes at Wimbledon. Took my breath away!
Loved her backhand aswell, her slice was so heavy, it deformed the ball like some sort of egg. More Steffi clips please!!
mrbunny74 4 years ago
I hated her when I was a kid but she gradually grew on me and nowadays I regard her as a true icon and a very remarkable woman.
zim83 4 years ago
When you take a lead on Steffi she gets angry and she starts to hit harder and come back. Martina made Steffi angry by taking the lead and Graf made her pay by coming back to win.
grafgirl27 4 years ago 3
I love Steffi, but gotta give Martina lot's of credit, she beat Steffi a cpl yrs later in the 91 semi here, so it's not a matter of whether she could play w/Graf, Graf was