Joan Sutherland sings "Da tempeste il legno infranto" live

[ilfig1iomio]

i had to listen to this after watching some of today's supposed baroque specialists sing this aria. none of them are actually capable of singing a trill. joan sutherland is the best.

[MrAndredekock]

As always there is this just glorious sound emanating from Dame Joan. If you would like to hear what the words are being sung, listen to Beverly Sills singing this and you will also be amazed. Brava Dame Joan. RIP.

[DCFunBud]

I never knew she sang this role. The head piece is a knock out! Great performance, as always. R.I.P., Dame Joan.

[highbaritone]

Dear People, Sutherland sang this repertoire with a full voice, never pulling back for the florid passages. She trilled like no other singer has ever trilled, again full voice and in all octaves. We had Sutherland who did with precision and a rich round tone. Lest just say thank you to Sutherland and Bonynge and all the others who have given us such joy. No contest all are best at what they do, and aren't we enriched that they do so.

[leprincebeaumont]

Grandiosa! Tutte scompaiono al suo cospetto!

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater I guess we've carried the discussion as far as it can go, given our somewhat differing views about the virtues of the castrati compared to those of the bel canto singers as well as the artists who succeeded them. Before we say things we will both regret, let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree on this issue.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater From reading your comments about cross-coloratura in chest voice and ornamentation, I was left with the impression that you thought great singing meant mainly bravura virtuosity. I apologize if I misread your remarks. You're certainly right about the castrati's ability to express pathos in the more purely lyrical arias. Perhaps the French saying "Autres temps, autres moeurs" (Other times, other customs) might apply to the stylistic changes in singing that occurred over the centuries.

[65attila]

@SkateNater

You did not nake your intentions clear and I doubt we can get much further.

[65attila]

@SkateNater

What isn't correct? Your ofhanded and rude reply to melterboy who knows as much about singing as anyone I know makes me think you have

latched on to a false thesiis for dear life. .

[meltzerboy]

@65attila I think SkateNater means he agrees with you that the singing style of the castrati wasn't correct for later operas, because, as he says, times changed so that acting was more emphasized. I appreciate your defense of my position and your generous compliment, John. Sometimes when we opera lovers have strong opinions, our expression of them can get a little out of hand. Still, I find the discussion of these ideas interesting.

[65attila]

@meltzerboy and @ SkateNater

Opera lovers are always calm:-)

Regard-John

[EdmundStAustell]

Spectacular! Dame Joan at her best. Clean coloratura that is not at all mcahine-like, but rather has a near-legato warmth about it that serves the music perfectly. Thanks for this rare piece.

[65attila]

From what l have read the castrati were unique but in a time and repetoire more different in vocal and dramtrtic demands for musiic written begining in the 19th century.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater We cannot know how the castrati would have adapted their fabulous florid technique to the operas of Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, and Strauss, which (with the exception of early and middle Verdi) did not demand such virtuoso singing. Likewise the bel canto singers of the mid-nineteenth century would probably have been hard pressed to sing the later music. Agility certainly has its place but there are other components to singing.

[65attila]

@meltzerboy

I also do not think the castrati singing style and sound were correct for later operas.

For Verdis Otello to work the tenor needs a large dark voice and wmotional sensitivity and nust sound like a male. He does not need trills, ,fioratura and mych above a high Bb. I can no more think of a castrato singing Otello than Mario del Monaco recording the sound track for "Farinelli"

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater It seems to me you are equating great singing with ornamentation and, more specifically, in the chest register. I'm trying to make the case that great singing includes more than the ability to sing fast scales, arpeggios, trills, and staccati. What you are talking about is virtuoso singing, really acrobatic singing. I admit it is thrilling, but only one part of great singing. Tonal beauty, legato, dramatic expression, interpretive artistry, taste, and charm are all just as important.

[meltzerboy]

@meltzerboy I omitted the importance of phrasing, which is so essential in all kinds of singing.

[Homoclassicus]

@SkateNater It's probable that you're right. But my arguments don't depend on Bartoli. The same could be said about Genaux if compared to Sutherland. Her agility probably outdoes Sutherland's in many instances, but for sheer beauty, power, accuracy and musicianship it's still Sutherland the winner for my ears. For me, at least, this is music, not a sport, so an amazing breath control or tremendous ability alone isn't enough - though certainly amazing.

[65attila]

@Homoclassicus

Bartoli's agility was often unclean coloratura - aspirattion and at comes cackles.

Sills is brilliant in this aria. Sutherland sings this with an ease and tonal beauty

rarely encounterd. Joan may not have been as dramatically intense as

Sills or Callas but she was musically sensitive and not simply a

singing machine.

[Homoclassicus]

@SkateNater As you correctly mentioned, those were registers and treaties from people that lived at that age. So they wrote and commented based on the tastes, possibilities and experiences of their time, not according to what we feel, listen and understand nowadays. Tastes change, and nobody can say absolutely which taste is better. Besides, the experience of listening to a Sutherland or a Flagstad was probably unknown in the 18th century. They could praise based on what they could listen to.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater It has also been said (by Pablo Casals) that music began and died with J.S. Bach. He was wrong and so were those who said that about opera.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater Again I agree but only partially. Sutherland, Galli-Curci, Tetrazzini did not sound like castrati (thankfully), but they had their own kind of beauty. To say that the voices and singing of singers like these are inferior to those of the castrati means you are accepting only one method of tone production and style of singing. I cannot imagine more beautiful tones than those of Patti (even in old age), Melba, Sembrich, Galli-Curci, Flagstad, Ponselle, and so on, yet they all differ.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater Perhaps, yet Adelina Patti had some rather good training, to say the least, from Garcia and Rossini himself. Sembrich studied with Lamperti, pere et fils. Melba worked with Mathilde Marchesi. Galli-Curci was largely self-taught, but what a singer she was! As far as mezzos and contraltos are concerned, Alboni is thought to be the ideal, and nearer to our own times (late-19th, early-20th century), Mantelli, Butt, Schumann-Heink, Onegin are formidable. Marilyn Horne is also exceptional.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater I agree about the differences. My mention of Catalani is because a critic who heard her had also heard Pacchierotti and likened her voice to his with regard to range, volume, and agility. You're correct that the greatest castrati (Farinelli, in particular) were incredible. Who said: "One G-d, one Farinelli"? But virtuoso sopranos of later generations such as Sontag, Lind, Patti, di Murszka, Gerster, Tietjens, Sembrich, Melba, Tetrazzini, Galli-Curci, Sutherland may have come close.

[meltzerboy]

@meltzerboy I'm sure you're aware that great singing is more than ornamentation, range, and volume. Tito Schipa, for example, is one of the greatest tenori di grazia and he had none of these characteristics.

[meltzerboy]

@meltzerboy Or Callas, who was not a perfect vocalist at all, and had neither great range with respect to register (she had dynamic range) nor exceptional power. Her ornamentation was there; in a sense she was a bravura singer, albeit a faulty one. Nonetheless, she was a great singer and, more than that, a great artist.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater I understand what you are referring to about the proscription of women in the opera, akin to (though for slightly different reasons) ancient Greek theater. I mentioned sopranos--and I meant famous ones--based solely on what I read years ago; but, as stated, the information may very well be inaccurate. Certainly, however, I do not contest the vocal stature of the castrati based on the scores available and elaborations upon them, as well as glowing testimony of contemporary critics.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater Bartoli sings with great passion; some have remarked, based on her facial expressions, too much so. There is a beauty in her singing; but I agree it is not so much in her fiorature. In fact, I contend her method of tone production in many of the coloratura passages sounds "incorrect." I do admire her singing anyway, but primarily in lyrical pieces with minimal or no coloratura figures.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater I stand corrected regarding the two singers I mentioned. But I do recall reading (perhaps incorrect information) that there were sopranos at the same time as the castrati or even before. Angelica Catalani, who came later, was said to sing like a castrato in regard to the volume of her voice as well as her tremendous agility and lack of hesitation in endlessly embellishing the vocal line. However, she was criticized for a lack of emotion and musicianship. Thanks for the info!

[meltzerboy]

@meltzerboy Even if the castrati were mainly showing off their vocal prowess, it would still have been worth hearing them just for the visceral thrill and beauty of the experience.

[Homoclassicus]

@SkateNater I really don't want to doubt your words, but how precisely can you know that? Besides, I must add that quality of projection, beauty of timbre, the perfection of the legato and staccato line matter much more than the agility itself or the level of difficulty. For instance, I find Sutherland's coloratura much more accurate, beautiful and amazing than Bartoli's (though I also love her), even though that mezzo probably sings even longer and faster lines.

[meltzerboy]

@SkateNater Didn't female singers such as Faustina and Cuzzoni precede or performed at the same period as the great castrati such as Farinelli and Caffarelli? I realize virtuoso sopranos such as Catalani and the so-called bel canto singers (Pasta, Grisi, Malibran, Viardot Garcia, Sontag, Patti, Rubini, Mario, Tamberlik, Lablache) came later, but I thought the other sopranos came first.

[SENAFOREVER]

Oh, Dame Joan, now you sing through the sky!!!

[raigekimaru]

the tempest. such a fitting description of joan's voice

[KriBlackRoson]

her voice is big... too bad it's not good quality of the sound

but she's great anyway

[agcalem]

I had the privilege of seeing her at the Hamburg Opera exactly in December 1969. It is a pity we cannot have pictures because the scene was phantastic!

[asdfopera]

I have pictures of the production. I actually got them from a Joan Sutherland Photo Album published close to her retirement. It was a very beautiful production and she looks perfect as Cleopatra.

[asdfopera]

This may have been the period of vocal "decline" for Dame Joan. When she first sang Cleopatra just 6 years earlier in London the voice with much brighter and more agile. Her voice was still beautiful but this marked the period when she took on heavier roles (Borgia, Esclarmonde, Leonora) because lets face it, the voice had completely changed and she was singing with a whole new instrument.

[TheOperaBarbie]

No wonder she is such a legend

[DanyelHawkes]

handel didnt hold back on this one............!!!! The beauty of this peice is that the vocal line is, wel, so unvocal. BUT JOAN! She came and conquered! I dont know many singers who can legitemately pull of this aria and its near-death coloraturas!!! SHE JUST DID!

[ericscam]

Sills sings it FAR better. This is far too fluty and pipey. She mushes the notes into slush...her diction is terrible, her musicianship and dynamics are amateurish and she sounds metallic. Yikes!

[tristanhnl]

I agree. Sutherland sounds very robotic and heavy. Unlike Bonynge I'd much rather Joan have gone in the direction of Wagner than bel canto. She should have gone with her instinct, she would have been right!

[shivastotravali]

@tristanhnl I am so glad to hear someone else say this. As fantastic as her coloratura technique was, after I heard her recording of Donna Anna with Giulini, I always wished that she would have become a dramatic soprano instead.

[meltzerboy]

@shivastotravali Sutherland was a dramatic coloratura soprano, or a dramatic soprano d'agilita, as Robert Merrill and others have called her. She combines the best of coloratura agility and dramatic expression. A kind of latter-day Lilli Lehmann or Lillian Nordica, but more given to the coloratura than the dramatic side.

[Homoclassicus]

@meltzerboy You perfectly put it: the pallalels to Sutherland's voice can only be found in singers like Lehmann or Nordica, and that to a certain degree, since Sutherland had a very unique voice. Sometimes I tend to consider that basically hers was a spinto voice - or a jugendlicher dramatische (is this the right spelling?) - with huge size and superhuman agility. However, as that fach doesn't seem to exist, I think what comes closest to defining her voice is the dramatico d'agilità fach.

[meltzerboy]

@Homoclassicus Sutherland is unique in our times in combining a voice of substantial weight with marked coloratura agility. According to John Steane, to have heard the "true" Sutherland would mean having attended her performances in the early years, from about 1959 to 1962. I just missed out on those but did hear her live in opera and recital shortly after that period and till the end of her career. There were even occasions when her mature voice took on the characteristics of its youthful self.

[meltzerboy]

@ericscam I associate fluty and pipey more with Sills than Sutherland. Sills was more of a lyric coloratura than Sutherland, in the tradition of singers like Galli-Curci, although she used her voice at times to sing dramatic coloratura roles. Your critique regarding Sutherland's diction is "vieux comme le monde," as we say in French. I generally agree about that although her diction sometimes rises to the occasion. She was not known for an extended dynamic range either, but she had musicianship.

[Lohengrin]

what a beautiful photo of Joan (rare) and the coloratura is -of course- sung to perfection.

I wonder who wrote these ornaments for her

[Sadiesexy]

Did she not write her own ornaments?

[MadonnaImperia]

@Lohengrin Richard Bonynge, obviously.

[Eiswirth]

Staggeringly beautiful! It's hard to believe a human being could make such sounds; when does she breathe? A phenomenon the likes of which we'll never hear again; thank God for these rare recordings, and to whomever posted it. Brava Joan!

[SENAFOREVER]

La Stupenda forever!

[marioegorga]

For all those young sopranos around today whom want to sing Cleopatra must listnen to this .This is how Cleopatra should be sung !!

[BeauTenor]

I agree, but I would also note that Sills' is another definitive interpretation of this role

[marioegorga]

I agree entirelly I am a big fan of Sills as well.

[bubjar]

Geanius lies in letting difficult things sound/look like drinking water, some say. Well, I agree in Joans rendition of this Handels aria. Extremely difficult, yet sounds so easy. You just relax and enjoy, and don´t even think that it is difficult. Great Joan!

[meltzerboy]

A rare performance indeed; I never knew it existed! And a most winning performance, replete with all the weapons of Sutherland's coloratura arsenal: real trills, precise staccati, even scales, flourishes of all kinds as well as pure, beautiful tone, incisive attack, and solid musicianship. If Sutherland had sung nothing but Handel, she would have become famous. Easily matches her own earlier recorded performance and more than matches Sills' performance of the aria. The golden age revisited!

[andreasscholl]

Joan was already in her later years.

Still splendid!

She could have specialized in ONLY baroque, maybe the voice would have stayed fresher...?

Bonynge and her ALWAYS placed vocality before the interpretation!!!!

Thats why she also sung all these year.

Her Athalia...wonderfull as the doomes Queen.

[arvanitsa]

In her later years? At 42 or 3?

[andreasscholl]

The voice lost a bit of its brightness.

The later years..after Norma's, Lucia's and Traviata's she darkend.

This was meant as compliment at Joans respect!

She had periodes were she was not happy about the voice...the 70-ies.

After these years, the voice bloomed up again!

Athalia etc...we can hear the splendid results from this.

Hail La Stupenda.

[65attila]

@meltzerboy

Totally correct Nate. Unfortunatley when Joan's versitility is discussed

Joan's baroque and operetta singing is conveniently forgotten by advocates of

other sopranos.

Regards-John

[meltzerboy]

@65attila John, it's virtuoso singing like this that makes me think Sutherland may be a throwback to the dawn of opera, before the castrati, when sopranos were noted for their phenomenal agility. Of course, this is based only on the reports of contemporary critics, so we'll never know for sure how these "creatures" sounded or if they were really as good as Dame Joan, who has total command of breath and sings like a (big) bird.

[CurzonRoad]

@meltzerboy

Ah... it's none other than Joan Suttherland on the famous Mapleson Cylinder!

[CurzonRoad]

@CurzonRoad

In a Time Travel situation....

[meltzerboy]

@CurzonRoad Neither Melba nor Adams, after all! LOL

[65attila]

@meltzerboy

Some things I think might be in Joan's favor was the sheer sie and weight of her voice.

Theaters and orchestras were smaller in the 18th century + the standard pitch was about 1/2 tone lower than in Joan's day.

From my hearing Joan on stage - her voice was huge and could cover most other singers.while she rarely sang all out. I just listened to a live 1971 complete performance of Semirande with Joan and Horne. who at full tilt sounded like a toy compared to Joan.

[Sadiesexy]

Wow, she is so great!