Keith Thompson VS Nadir Ahmed Debate: Is Paul a true apostle? 1/8

[belong2christ1]

love your work brother keith keep up the good work

[hannahr77]

Keith bless your heart for proving islam for what it is a hoax from the pit of hell

[jayorama1]

Keith, someone brought up the variation in accounts of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, such that there was disagreement among those who travelled with him. Is this a minor point in your expositing of the coptic? Thanks if you can comment.

[KeithTruth]

tektonics (dot) org / lp / paulthree (dot) html

[QuantumUni]

@KeithTruth, How long have you been debating? I like you better than David Wood

[KeithTruth]

@QuantumUni, I assure you brother Wood is far better of a debater than me but thank you :) I have been debating and engaging these issues since about 08 so have only just begun.

[jamool2009]

@Thunder: here what Peter said about Paul in 2 Peter 3:16: He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.. Just read James' Book, the brother of Jesus by blood and by faith, and tell me he sees the message of Jesus. Can you see in it any of the teachings of the church or Paul?

[KeithTruth]

@jamool2009 James calls Jesus the Lord Jesus Christ. Your quran considers that blasphemy. James says Jesus died for our sins and rose, that entails him believing Jesus is at te rigght hand of the father from Daniel 9. James and Paul are in agreement.

[HolisticPhilosopher]

I enjoyed your methodical approach Keith Thompson. I'm also glad to see you edited your blog, slightly, since I last read it. Keep up the good work.

[anamasteos]

Keith can you tell me if you believe that the entire Bible is the actual word of God. To me it doesn't make sense if the word of god is Christ then it can't also be the word of men which is flawed. The bible was written a testimony of men talking about the messiah. They all speak from their point of view and convictions. The same is still argued today to the point the greater message is so diluted that it is ineffective. Is the gospel really simple?

[KeithTruth]

@anamasteos I believe the whole Bible is the word of God and the scriptures are God breathed by the Holy Spirit unto men.

[psonnenh]

keep feighting I support you. Keight

[AnInvitationToTheTru]

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:79)"

[KeithTruth]

You still use that argument? The verse before, verse 78 explains that those who write the book with their own hands are illiterates who know not the book even. Its not claiming that our Bible that is attested in thousands of manuscripts around the world being corrupted by these few illterate people, for that would be impossible.

The quran is not from God. Muhamamd promised xxx Jannah that is not in the Bible. Your god is satan. Get out of Islam before its too late.

[Thundercrack3]

Good Video Keith. The only issue is that the Apostle Paul did NOT receive the Gospel FROM Peter or any of the other Apostles. Gal.1:11-12 says "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I NEITHER RECEIVED IT OF MAN, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul, first after 3 years went to Jerusalem as you bring out. But THEN 14 years later he is back again...Gal.1:2...and communicated to them the Gospel that he taught.

[KeithTruth]

Paul recieve the gospel message from Christ John 3:16 However he gained a historical account after words confirming his revelation in jerusalem in 35 A.D. which is fond in 1 corinthians 15. You're right he already knew the gospel message from Christ but he also recieved it again from Peter as well as additional information. When he went back 14 years later he had already gained historical account from Peter. He went back to make sure he had everything down since he was preaching full time.

[Thundercrack3]

The Gospel revealed to the Apostle Paul by the Risen Christ is the Gospel of Grace. This is not the Gospel given to the 12 Apostles by The LORD during His ministry., which was the Gospel of the Kingdom. During this Age of Grace, there is ONE Gospel the Gospel of Grace. However, they overlap in the Book of Acts. As the Gospel of the Kingdom is set aside for the building of the Body of Christ through the Gospel of Grace. Have a look again at Galatians 2:2. Paul communicated it to THEM.

[jamool2009]

The hard fact is: Paul's writings appeared BEFORE the so called gospels! Paul also claimed to have HIS OWN gospel. His writings influenced/corrupted the gospels. What's the proof of Paul's words? It's his own dream of seeing Jesus as light! I can't believe it. An ex-bounty hunter for the Romans became the maker of Christianity! The guy just claimed to see Jesus as light and they believed him! What can be more miraculous than this? He even beat Jesus w/his miracles.

[Thundercrack3]

@jamool2009 BUT unfortunately for your line of thinking, the Twelve Apostles accepted him as one of their own, a True Apostle of The LORD Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter also acknowledged The Apostle Paul's writings as scripture, and Holy Spirit breathed.

Satan HATES the Gospel of Grace. You must be one of Satan's minions, in also despising the Gospel of the Grace of God.

[Kenzofeis]

Saul, by his own words declared an apostle? The 13th one? The one that hunted christians, that was on such a mission when he claims to have seen Jesus, while he and his companions told several differing versions of this afterwards?

[22dota22]

@ All,

The Quran...ONE mean ONE like a STONE...you know...The Black Stone...Hajar Al--Aswad...is ONE...the Kaabah...also ONE...So, Allah of Islam is ONE like ONE of A Stone.

The Bible...One is not like anything...one in essensce...three in persons. No body is like unto HIM...so nobody is like our God...One God...The Father, His Word & His Spirit.

[rdavian]

Jesus was GODS word made flesh. SO while your pondering that in your head the real question is why would islam limit an all powerful GOD.

[BCEagles2010]

I wonder if Nadir Ahmed truly "gets" why Scholars, Apologists and Opponents *cringe* when he attempts to debate. He demonstrates a weak understanding of the issues, has no serious credentials and worse, he manages to contradict his own positions and beliefs without even knowing it.

[BassP86]

You're absolutely right, BC. This is a tactic you see in many Muslims, and some atheists as well, which is what I like to call, the John Kerry phenomenon. This is basically a form of a strawman, in which the person flip-flops or contradicts his or her own position simply to make the opponent's argument fail in debate. Nadir is not a good and fair representation of the Muslim faith and quite a few other Muslims will actually agree.

[FccB24]

So Jesus is God but not the Father? :S Im a Christian, help me understand this please!

[KeithTruth]

Father, Son Spirit are one God. Who told you the Father isn't God?

[FccB24]

It's in your comments in this video lol. You said Jesus isn't the Father meaning He isn't God?

[KeithTruth]

Trinitarian Christians believe Jesus, the Father and the spirit are the same being, the same God. However this one being, one God exists in 3 eternally distinct persons.

Being is what you are. Person is who you are. Jesus isn't the Father in the sense of personhood but not being. Do you believe in the trinity?

[FccB24]

Yea ofcourse, I'm a Christian lol. I'm just confused how the Trinity works.

[KeithTruth]

Thats ok no problem.

private message me later with your questions and I will help you understand our doctrine. :)

[raijeremae]

what is apostle? are they existed in time of Jesus? how many years did Paul become apostle? is he apostle in time of Jesus? why not? why Paul claimed to be one of the Apostle of Jesus? why did he revised the bible? Paul is imposter not apostle. find Paul in the last supper... can you find him? he's liar, so some christians didn't follow paul because they are well educated to Paul. Paul only wants to prove that he knows something about religion but he's devil and made revision of the bible.

[KeithTruth]

I answer all of those questions in the debate.

[raijeremae]

is trinity written on the bible? is the word bible written on the bible? did jesus pray to God? is barnabas one of the apostle of Jesus? do you believe in barnabas gospel? if not, then why? do you have any proofs that paul is really telling the truth?

[KeithTruth]

Is the word Tawheed written in the quran? No it is not but you derive belief in Tawheed from reading the quran right? Well Christians read the bible as a whole and believe in trinity.

Gospel of barnabas is a 14th century fake work written in italian. And as a muslim you have to reject it because Jesus denied being the messiah in it.

[raijeremae]

Tawheed in Arabic means attributing Oneness to Allaah and describing Him as being One and Unique, with no partner or peer in His Essence and Attributes.

The Arabs say waahid, ahad and waheed, all meaning one. Allaah is Waahid, meaning that He has no rivals or peers in any way. So Tawheed means knowing Allaah is One, with none like unto Him. Whoever does not acknowledge Allaah in these terms and does not describe Him as being One with no partner or associate does not believe in Tawheed.

[KeithTruth]

I know what Tawheed means and the word does not exist in the quran. You use information in the quran to come up with the doctrine.

Just as the word trinity is not in the Bible but Christians use the Bible to come up with the doctrine. So yes when you admitted tawheed is not in the quran you proved my point. Thank you.

[EGITAYE]

Yes Paul is a true apostle.

[stillow0485]

Keith u doing a good job. Im very pleased with what you have put out. Keep it up. Cant stop dont stop.

[TheStudentTeacher]

Alright Keith lets see where this goes, ill state this on my own behalf that Paul is a false apostle who is a well trained pharisee, orchestrated the greatest lie to blind the teachings of Jesus Christ.

watch?v=BfB-NGzhP88

[KeithTruth]

That theory doesnt account for all of the early sources who say he was aquainted with the desciples and taught the same as them regarding who Jesus was, what he did on the cross, and his resurrection.

Your theory is very poor indeed.

[TheStudentTeacher]

"I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service."

II Cor 11:8

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15-16

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

Matthew 23:9

[KeithTruth]

2 cor 11:8

I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you

Is a more accurate translation of the greek that you cannot spin. The churches of Macedonia aided him at Corinth. Robbed there simply means was given more than what was their fair share

As for 1 cor 4:15 the greek says he gennaō (regenerate) them in the context there. He is not asking to be be called their father. Study greek. I can show muhammad saying he will pray for people if they pay him

[TheStudentTeacher]

k thanks for clearing that for me.

[TheStudentTeacher]

and im not a muslim lol

[KeithTruth]

alright no problem

[snide95]

So basically we cannot rely on the Scripture in English. If there's that much distortion in interpreting Greek to English, then shouldn't everyone who studies the Bible learn Greek in order to get the correct meaning of all the verses.

[KeithTruth]

No we can rely on the English just fine. Just a few worlds are better checked when going to the Greek. Just like your english translations of the quran (assuming you're muslim, forgive me if you're not) are all different so you want to go to the Arabic to find the root meaning.

[QuestionsAThousand]

yo keith, are you italian?

[Pensionisten]

hey keith, i wanted to see what this is about, but doubt i will see / hear more, maybe there is as much, a lesson in this, to me, as there is, to you, but i had to stop when you said "im here to defeat nadir", it might not be what you truely wanted to say or do, but never the less it elads me and maybe more into thinking, fight and what not, and you should know better, then to fight, i am saying this to you as the friend i am, and not as the enemy i can be seen =))

love and hugs =))

per =))

[KeithTruth]

muhammad is not a true aprophet he didn't even Jesus or have a vision of him...

[XSC3]

well, Keith, Muslims do claim that Muhammad went up into the heavens to see Jesus there, but still, it's the same sort of thing. If a non-supernatural meeting is required, then yeah, wouldn't count.

[KeithTruth]

Quite true xsc3 but I was talking more about recieving a visit from Christ with doctrine. Paul spent 3 years with him and also saw him in the road to damascus. Muhammad on the other hand recieved no such doctrine. Gabriel gave it to him from allah supposedly even though many of the stories can be traced to Jewish targums and gnostic gospel forgeries.

[transwarp100]

Did you know if you really knew god that you wouldn't have the arrogance to say he sacrificed himself to save man kind!, even without Islam my heart finds that degrading to our creator.

[KeithTruth]

We believe God so loved the world that he sent his Son for us. The father didn't come down to earth. Jesus Christ did his mission for earth willingly out of love. It is only because of your subjective sick mind that you feel God is degraded. For Jesus Christ himself said: "No one shows greater love than when he lays down his life for his friends." John 15:13

[monilove5]

I was wondering, do you seperate Jesus and God as two seperate beings?

[KeithTruth]

No. You have to distinguish person and being. Jesus, Father, and Spirit are one Being. However they are distinct persons.

[KeithTruth]

being is what you are. Person is who you are.

[Weallfart]

Kinda like an egg??? White, Yoke and Shell??? Or the Sun.. Heat, light and Mass????

[BODYSHEENdottcom]

KeithTruth wrote:

"The father didn't come down to earth. Jesus Christ did his mission for earth willingly out of love."

Wrong. Jesus didn't want to go through with it.... he wanted the "cup" to pass.... but gave in to the will of his father.

Also, if you have seen the son, you have seen the Father (said Jesus). So, the Father did come down.... or do you worship three gods?

Three persons? One God? Get a grip on reality... The bible says Jesus was the son of god, not god the son.

[KeithTruth]

Jesus pre-existed as the exalted Son of God and came to earth to die for us Jn 17:5, Jn 1:1-3,14, Mat 20:17-19.

Father, Son and Spirit are 3 eternally distinct persons but they are one being. Just like me and you are both human beings. Being is what you are. Person is who you are.

Jesus is not the Father. You quoted Jn 14:7 where Jesus says if you see him you see the father however in verse 10 he tells you what he means. 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

[BODYSHEENdottcom]

Well, I'll just set you straight on that trinity thing from a video I made on another youtube account I have: watch?v=7vynz6dGZSc

[KeithTruth]

If I have time I might watch it.

[BODYSHEENdottcom]

Ha! It's a couple minutes long.... I also have one on the OT god.... if you want that one... PM me, it's on a personal site.

[KeithTruth]

Saw the video I was not very impressed. The first few OT verses you posted are accepted by all Christians. We believe God is one. Secondly any verses that have Jesus recognizing the Father and or praying to him is what we believe. We don't believe Jesus is the Father. He had to give recognition to the Father so that he would be qualified to attone for our sins on the cross and fulfill the law. Fulfulling the OT law entails being a faithfull Jew. However no mere man can live a perfect life. etc.

[transwarp100]

Jesus is be such great god that he was killed by his creations? hahahahaha thats a mighty god for you, a clear sign ig you will.

[KeithTruth]

Did you know that if you pick up a book and read you can learn? I know it is hard to understand because all you do is watch zakir naik clips. But in the Torah blood sacrifice was required by God so the people would get rid of sin. The messiah was predicted in Jeremiah 32 to make sin go away with a new covanent. That is why the Son of God lowered himself willingly and was a sacrifice for the new covanent. That if we accept his sacrifice we can be saved from sin and be in the new covanent.

[IDH77]

Is number 3 really missing or is it misnumbered?

[KeithTruth]

It didn't work so I uploaded it again. It is up now

[germanicelt]

We can have confidence that our faith in Jesus Christ is the truth. Now to get on with the job of seeking and becoming more like Him.

[opntheirhartzJesus]

poor nadir,,, what a mess looking for a place to puke. good, you are a great mind and a blessed heart. thank you for your willingness to entertain nadir,,, probably the most deceitful of the mohammedan "apologists." although the "serious" mohammedan apologists want nothing to do with this guy. he is the best evidence for what kind of mental condition can be incurred by reading and believing mohammedanism's book: an absolute blindness to truth or evidence. talk about blind faith

great job keith

[someguy6481]

Hey Keith,

when and where did this debate happen?

[KeithTruth]

yesterday morning