If you support Mel Gibson even a little, I need your help getting 3 ass hats banned from Youtube. Click my channel and report / thumbs down the 3 videos I have favorited. Thank you.
Would like to point out that the one with the largest growth (at 5:00) was turkey who has a secular Parliamentary democracy for government. Also like 80% of both the graph and of the growth has been in 3 countries. Also just pointing out Muslims only make up 16% of Israel. So if you looked at 1980s..the middle is really did very little in the way of papers compared to the world. With the increase of freedom and the increasing amount of education we starting to see the large growth now.
If they need finacial investment so bad why arent they helping themselves? The oil rih Arab states dont exactly run to each other's aid so why should anyone else help them? Cant they do anything themselves? Maybe buy a few less Bentleys with all that Oil money and invest in themselves? Take for instance, the HUGE amount of money donated to the Palestinian cause by the rich Islamic states...(Sarcasm). Well hey at least they get to blame evil European colonialism-oh wait wasnt the US a colony too?
@philateliceun No im not kidding you- the USA WAS in fact a colony. Are you KIDDING me by saying that european colonialism is the reason why no Arab country on earth donates a rats ass to the palestinian cause? Seriously stop making excuses and do something constructive besides whine like a bitch. Whatever wrongs have been done in the ancient past is no excuse for arabs turning a blind eye to the plight of other arabs- who do you think you are selling that bullshit to?
@mucephi1 What the fuck are youtalking about? It just looked as if you used the US as an argument for saying Colonialism was good. I don't give a flying fuck about arabs and whatever plight they should have according to you. And I didn't ask you if the USA was a colony I asked you if you just said that because it was a succesfull colony that colonialism was good.
@philateliceun Anything that is successuful and benefits people can be considered good. The "colony" that was the USA changed the world forever, saved the world from Nazi and communist rule, and did more for Arab nations in the form of aid etc than any arab nation does to help their own. That is what I think is pathetic and the real point of this arguement.
@mucephi1 what? So the looting and slave trading was all good because we have the USA? Erasing entire cultures from the face of the earth was good because we now have Pizza Hut and Coca Cola? Talk about indoctrination.
@philateliceun The world is safer because of the US military not pizza hut you moron. And yes it was worth wiping out whole cultures- that has happenned all throughout history and STILL does not explain the apparent hatred and disdain arabs have for each other.
I like how you eliminate Russia and all former Russian states completly. Do you include them all as Europe? If you dont include them at all doesnt that warp all of this even further? Aree you saying the Russians are stupid people? lols I love how pure bullshit c an be so utterly manipulated to serve your fallacious arguments. You also leave out two whole other continents. Produce some honest numbers and Ill watch this cra- er stuff again. And dont tell me you arent manipulating all of this.
The "4 times faster growth than other countries" comment at 3:27 is almost negligible. Why? Think of it this way. If on my old street (say 10 houses), everyone eats apples. And if per household, there are 20 apples eaten per day (say each household is large). The exception is my house, we eat 1 apple a day, and suddenly we start to eat 4 apples in a day, we've eaten 4 times as many apples, but still is a significantly low number of apples compared to the rest. You understand the metaphor?
If all those immigrants that came to study are not only not counted as arab but counted as canadians or americans or ''westerners'' if I can say ... Then the stats are very flawed... Every universities I went to had a LOT of arabs post graduate students... That's the thing that bothered me the most about Tf00t's video ...
* In my previous comment I meant : ''This is non neglectable ''
(sorry for the mistake, I'm french !!! I mis-spoke!!
"Every universities I went to had a LOT of arabs post graduate students"
Which is indicative of a larger problem, that they must go abroad to study particularly in the sciences, the edumacational infrastructure is not well developed- one of the many reasons being the fundamentalists don't like their people edumacated very much (or else they'll begin critical evaluating things which they're not supposed to: religion).
Your right, but a lot of them come for post graduate studies ... meaning that they already have a very good education ... But your right, This indicates a problem ... I first saw it as: they must have something good ... But at the same time ... they must really lack something ... cause lets be honnest .. I dont think there's a lot of ''american/canadian/european'' post graduate students in arab universities !!
Having studied in a couple universities, I would also argue that a hell of a lot of post graduate students or publishers (I studied engineering) are arabs/moderate muslims. So if all these people that came to Canada or France or other countries to have an opportunity are not counted. I'm sur they would make a difference in the stats. Where I made my masters degree. I'd say about 15 to 20% (un-sourced... just estimating but still) are muslims. This is non negociable.
the fastest growing muslim countries in terms of science here are Turkey and Iran. What a surprise: a country which fought islam for decades through radical secularisation, + a muslim dictatorship trying to move into the global arms race, building laboratories in the desert while keeping the general population in an iron grip
I would still argue if science is advancing in muslim countries now it's because they have been severely shaken out of their comfort with the development of the new media
Iran's scientific progress is born out of fear of the U.S and the need for better weapons research to close the widening gap in weaponology , While for Turkey its purely economic.
Chile has a population of 17 million compared to Egypt's population of 79 million, so you should adjust for population.
Also, you complain about developing vs. developed, but you don't take into account the amount of oil a lot of these Muslim countries have. That oil means they are generally financially well off and should be considered developed. Saudi Arabia's GDP is higher than Thailand and South Africa, but behind those in scientific research.
@BrotherAlpha That's actually a very false way to look at things.. The US is very very wealthy.. But not yet even close to the state of development of Western Europe.. Development actually has nothing to do with money.. Its more of a result that comes after development...
@BrotherAlpha Well I can, but I doubt it will make any difference.. Its simple.. The state of development has nothing to do with money, which is the opposite of the conclusion you drew in the comment I initially responded too... Saudi Arabia is not developed at all.. Even economy wise.. If the oil dries up or is no longer needed, they have nothing.. Oil, tourism and aid is the only thing that is keeping the middle east from hungering itself out, or get to action to develop of course...
@BrotherAlpha Nope, because you are defining 'They' wrong.. 'They' as you call them, have shit to do with the actual people.. Just like you and me have shit to do with those corrupts leaders and shadow governments in our countries, even in a democracy.. As you can see in the middle east, people will try to free themselves from the tyrannic concept that is called 'leadership'.. They always have and always will.. Has nothing to do with them but with humanity as a whole..
@BrotherAlpha As for the development issue.. Their country is very young.. And a lot of their problems remain hidden because they are doing so well financially.. Kinda like the Romans or the Islamic Caliphate.. It all goes well as long as the money keeps on pooring in.., But as their power will decrease, their cash flow etc, you will see clear sings of all the things they have yet to do to make their society more livable..
@BrotherAlpha Don't get me wrong, the future belongs the other nations in the world.. Its their time now.. Not to mention we even got this far together.. But its a fact that the European way of doing things for now, is far superior, with the thanks of others I repeat, to any other system in the world..
OK, at 2:10 you have a graph showing all Muslim countries (with the notable exception of Iran) in the bottom and you say it supports your POV? If you correct your data per capita, the results may be more astonishing but you may not like them.
Then, 4 times growth (3:28) in absolute numbers is easily achieved if you start low: you had one paper, now you have 4, nevermind your neighbour's growth from 150 to 200.
Who gives a shit if the useless dogma is Islam, or Christianity, or whatever. The point is that the non-religious segment of the worlds population produces so overwhelmingly more of useful knowledge than the religious nutcases.
And I bet that the scientific elite in Iran are not very religiously preverted compared to most of the Islamic world.
You are looking at the tip of the iceberg and saying Non-Muslims had a more output than Muslims in science.
If you do a deeper study about the evolution of science the contributions of Muslims is much more. I'm a ex-muslim atheist, and I was looking for videos supporting my belief till I saw this.
Ex- christian atheists make great counter-arguments towards christian-creationists, but I can't find anything about islam.All you do is say how terrible muslims are, not why Islam is wrong.
@interfan63 It's because it is hard to define exactly how much they have helped, mostly because they had a lot of ideas taken out from the older Greek ideas, plus less exact historycal data(if I'm not wrong).
About the anti-muslim counter arguments... They believe in basically the same Divinity, with a different name and a different prophet. The counter arguments are basically the same... with the exception of the trinity stuff. I'm personally against the Shariah, not the belief itself.
Good video. More people need to read "How to Lie with Statistics" before they make hasty conclusions or believe someone like Thunderfoot. Relative frequency is more important than frequency, and especially when comparing countries that are so different socioeconomically, you have to control for a LOT of variables
Anyways, the current west should thank the Muslim countries in the mid centuries for being able to get out the dark ages and advancing to what it is today.
Point made. However, I think the point that Thunderf00t was getting at was the Islamic extremism and how it effects the politics of a certain area, not the other way around. Islam in and of itself is the reason there are Islamic extremists in the world. Knowledge creation may be gaining in Islamic countries, but they still have a long way to go. I'm currently in Afghanistan and can see first hand how knowledge hasn't even touched these people for some time. Peace.
frankly, if someone doesn't have 7 and a half minutes to read this and absorb the information, then they need to stay the fuck out of politics all together : ) lol
the bottom line is science is not part of religion no matter how much religious people attempt to conflate the two. But the politics of religion unfortunately can affect the practice of science. Thunderfoot's essential point remains valid because the volume of scientific research from the countries he mentioned is very low. Saying it's increasing at a fast rate is great but still just means an already very low number even doubled or tripled, can remain very low.
@dubbleplusgood i dont understand why people think science and religion conflict... if i made a metal ball, and somone took it and studied what it is made out of and all the chemicals, does that then mean that it has no creator? of course not! science is just the material and methods that the creator used when making the universe. Science amplifies the glory of God. what is the problem?
@live2givesadaqa it's an excellent question I wish I had a neat answer for. I will say this, the definition of science itself, does not allow for things that cannot be tested. I can say God exists or a Flying Spaghetti Monster exists or a Unicorn exists - but if I can't ever prove it, it's not science. God is in the gaps is a good expression to understand why many people, including many famous scientists, were religious. Once they couldn't figure out a problem any further, they said God did it.
@dubbleplusgood thanks for the response. But you see I do not believe in a God of the gaps at all. I do not believe in god just because i dont understand some things and therefore it must be god. nono, i believe god created the things i understand and the things i do not understand but maybe some day will. I still do not see the problem with God in science. Unless somone believes in a god of the gaps, but i do not subscribe to that whatsoever
Plenty of 20th century scientists and physicists believed in God, not for a "God of the gaps" scientific reason, but for personal reasons on reflection of life and philosophy. It's pretty recent that people started being so dogmatic about science and atheism, so much so that they try to grandfather in great thinkers of the past by claiming "they just didn't know any better" when that's just not the case.
This is bit biased as you are considering the time frame of like last 50-100 years. But if you consider last 1000 years the major contribution to scinece has been mainly made by Arabs, Indian and chinese. the present day Europe and Japan hardly had any contribution. The scientific development is not in isolation but it has been dveloped for thousands of year by various countries and civilizations like Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Greeks, romans and later by europeans and Americans.
@dubbleplusgood My whole idea was that credit should be given to other civilizations like Arab/Greeek/Indian/Chinese as well for the immense contribution to the science over centuries, a fact that lots of western history ignores.
Even your chart proves Thunderf00t's point. China out performs every single Muslim country put together. Why? Because China has forsaken superstition more than 60 years ago! That's why?
@darkmiles22 "On a per capita basis, China would be far behind Iran, though."
Far behind? Iran only produces approx. 1.67 more papers per capita than China (according to Sundra's chart.) Also Iran has about twice the GDP per capita than China. Either way that doesn't change the fact that China far surpasses the entire Islamic world which has about the same population as China does.
@mjh012363 Stop thinking like a religous zealot: you don't dig in the problem, you don't make research, but yet you shit reason out of your ass.... Idiot; I am sorry but that the truth; Be a fucking THINKER.China had fewer then 1000 papers in 1981 (source Science Metrix).
@mjh012363 You know why China develop science? LAW: See the reform of Deng Xiaoping. What he did is OPEN china one:
one of the reform is that every foreign company MUST make a joint venture with a local company (50/50). And so because of this China absorbed knowledge from the developed world. Furthermore, to respect the 50/50 foreign company and local company had to develop the local knowledge and so the local scientific pool. (spill effect)
@mjh012363 My point? China didn't was open 60 years ago like you said. My point? Only the littoral in China is developed the rest of countries is literally a mirror of Africa: Their development and scientific publication is the same then Africa= NOTHING
My point: Even if we take out China let me just ask you what do you make of the other 155 countries? Lack of production of scientific publication due to Islam obviously... Oh wait that account only for 54 countries, damn what about the 101left?
@Shundra "...what do you make of the other 155 countries? Lack of production of scientific publication due to Islam obviously... Oh wait that account only for 54 countries, damn what about the 101left?""
That's because they have their own brands of superstition: Voodoo in Haiti, Animism in Africa (as well as Islam), Hinduism in India (though they seem to put that aside more), Buddhism in many other asian countries...
@mjh012363 . Notice are you carefully avoid Latine America.. Why? Christian country much like US yet produce just a little more paper then the Islamic world...and definitively not as much as US. Why? Because, Religion is not the cause of every fucking misery in this world.
Please make actual research before any further comment, I want a source to back your point of view (ie: If this country sucks at science it's only because of religion).
@Shundra "Notice are you carefully avoid Latine America.. Why?"
OK; Latin America is plagued with Santeria. BTW America is beginning to slip into its own backwardness thanks to the Evangelicals. See Thunderf00t's "Way Do Creationist Get Laughed At" Episode 21.
@mjh012363 Okay your last post give me 3 options: (1) you are a Troll (2) you are an idiot (3) You have no rational mind or Free thinking ability. I think you are a mix from the 3.
I ask you for a good argument, with a solid proof ( I was waiting for a research paper or a book reference) but you come with what? TF video, the exact same video were he just spit is opinion and where a lot of people began to loose trust in him. Opinion are no fact, No source= no proof. No proof= no point.
@Shundra Newton kept his religious beliefs private as anyone would. The point is, religion has used every trick in the book to survive, from your friendly crusade's, to the super luxurious threat of excommunication under free thought and open beliefs that weren't augmented towards god the savior. Religion is anti reason kind sir, and it is certainly not rational. Religion accepted science in it's infancy, but now that it's threatening, with observation and reason, to overthrow the 3000 year old
I'm not so sure about the resource curse affecting science, though. The amount of science getting done in a country would seem to me to be more a product of the number of people, the amount of per capita wealth to devote to progress and higher learning left after buying necessities, and attitudes toward science. And I found an article establishing a negative correlation between religiosity and favorable attitudes toward science at Purdue:
@darkmiles22 It have an important impact i am pretty sure, basically let's take the case of Saudi Arabia... When they need something they aren't going to buy from local, They are going to buy it from the exterior because they have money: they don't care about the price, they don't try to develop the state...
See "Rentier State" in Wikipedia ;"therefore does not require a strong domestic productive sector" No local sector = no need for local scientist.
It is fairly clear that you had the idea of adjusting for wealth, Shundra, since you eliminated the wealthy countries. Unfortunately, by not adjusting the rest for wealth, all you did was get rid of many of the non-Muslim-dominated countries that are beating the Muslim-dominated ones. I'm not sure if this was accidental or intentional, but the effect is that your figures here are skewed to make Islam look better.
Also, Tf00t's figure was simplistic, but at least he adjusted for population.
@darkmiles22 I did not get rid of anything the figure I took were from the articles I mentioned that give a global picture of a region or of continent. The only countries that weren't take into consideration in the report, and that I regret, were eastern european countries and Russia. Furthermore if you begin with the factor *wealth* you must also take into account were it come from, natural resource are known in economy ( Natural ressource curse) to have a detrimental effect on a whole country.
@darkmiles22 And well let resume: Observation Thunderfoot, (1) Islam is to be blame for the lack of publication =/= well there is other factors and comparing with other countries at the same level of development there is the same problem of publication ergo Islam is not the only factor or the determinant factor of the lack of publication. (2) TF: Islam countries are in stasis for the last 800 years and this continue to day =/= well there is an important growth of papers in the Islam world.
I liked the video, and I appreciated the attempt at deeper research on this fascinating question that Tf00t introduced. Unfortunately, the measures you cited, namely number and growth in scientific publications by country, are confounded by population and GDP as well as growth in either factor respectively. It is impossible to separate the effect of Islam from the noise until you chart the # of pubs / (population * GDP).
@darkmiles22 Totally agree if you are interested on the subject Timur Kuran the economist made a paper in 2002 I think on the subject.
However the point of this video was not to show the "effect of Islam" ( I mean in 24hour after the original video was posted ...). It was more to denounce the lack of research of Thunderfoot and is hastily jumping to the conclusion (1) "Islam is the only cause of the lack of research" (2) the Islam world is in stasis in research.
@Shundra Thanks for the quick reply and the reference = )
I definitely agree that there are many variables at play here. I just cross referenced the 2005 World Bank data on # of Scientific and Technical Journal articles with their 2008 GDP for 90 countries, and GDP accounts for 90% of the variance in the data, though if you eliminate the U.S. and Japan that number drops to 70%. Interesting stuff, but one last word in defence of Thunderf00t: there really is no easy way to get these stats.
@darkmiles22 I agree that there is no easy way to find the stat but that in no way excuse Thunderfoot to take a statistics and jump to the conclusion and present it as a fact: this a very poor argumentation.
@darkmiles22 Another way of looking at wealth that might be more informative than GDP is % population below the poverty line. GDP doesn't tell you much, average income per capita tells you slightly more but % below poverty line gives you the wealth of the country plus its distribution. It is possible for a country to have a high GDP but be controlled by... say a large despotic family which controls most of the wealth to themselves.
@darkmiles22@sofiarune you most also take into account were the wealth come from, Ressource Natural Curse is really important in Development Economics a model to test the effect of islam would be to take the whole developing world and make:
number of Scientific Publication= X+ Dummy Islam Countries+ Dummy OPEP + GDP/per capita + Dummy Dictatorship+ Corruption Rate+ Literacy rate+ distance with developed countries+ Violence Rate+ GDP+ poverty line rate etc....
oh woops I forgot to notice that public health went from less than 1% of their papers to slightly greater than 1% of their papers. Oh wow, that's so amazing and it totally changes my point! Not.
@dookiecheez .... Health&care is a subfield of biomedecine, Iran publication in % by field: 25.6% Biomedecine&Biochemisty, Physics&engineering: 30.7%, Chemistry 28.9 etc... (Osareh&Wilson 2002)-
Futhermore:" Iran, China, India and Brazil are the only developing countries among 31 nations with 97.5% of the world's total scientific productivity. The remaining 162 developing countries contribute less than 2.5% of the world's scientific output." (Nature 430, 311; 2004)
@dookiecheez I am wondering if you can actually read... *sight* Try again and try to read slowly and connect the few neurones you have while you do it:
" Iran, China, India and Brazil are the only developing countries among 31 nations with 97.5% of the world's total scientific productivity. The remaining 162 developing countries contribute less than 2.5% of the world's scientific output." (Nature 430, 311; 2004)
@dookiecheez Really? You are very disappointing... The text I cited said AMONG the 31 countries that account for 97.5% of the scientific productivity there is only 4 developing countries: Iran, China, India, Brazil. Which mean that the others 27 countries are developed countries. The 2,.5 % scientific productivity that is left is done by 165 countries. Did you understand now?
And criticizing my English writing is really low (1) it's not my mother tongue, (2) I still read it better then you
Speaking incoherently and acting smug when other people don't understand you is really pathetic.
Yes now I do understand what you had meant, I had requested via the apparently misunderstood question mark some clarification on this. Let me make this simple, Tf00t said ~20% world pop that is muslim accounts for ~1% of the worlds scientific papers. Even if it was actually ~5 or ~10% of the worlds scientific papers it's still grossly under par, the point remains the same.
@dookiecheez I did not speak incoherently, I was very pacient and took the time to explain you every point of my argumentation making every time careful citation. yet every time you "LOL" or laught at my argumentation (who is being smug?)
Yet you don't understand that the main problem for the fact that publication is not religion... it's the same problems as the 108 other countries which are not Muslims. please read on the subject i have given you the sources... use them.
I don't see how anything you've said shows any reason why religion isn't a large part of the issues in Islamic states, specifically as it pertains to scientific productivity. Speculating that scientific productivity based on recent growth, ignoring the applications of said science, is improving is almost irrelevant because it has nothing to say about why the situation is as it is. If you want to argue the Quran vs. Sharia law, Hadiths, etc then that's fine--but how many of them wud.
@dookiecheez Currently the Religion is not the problem. One of the problem in some countries is the fusion of Radical Islamist with the gouvernement, do not like a lot of people do, confound religion and the radical... to give an analogy it would be like saying all christian are creationist... So this is one of the main problems as stated in the articles I linked and the UN report 2003 (I have put the link in description you can also read the conclusion of the report in the description).
I'm somewhat confused by your wording, if in islamic states parts of islam are part of law as supported by the religious government, and the religious people that they govern then religion is the problem.
@dookiecheez The problem is not the Religion per se. To simplify the religion is only word... What give meaning to word? Interpretation, and that's done by people, Imam if you like, they can give, literally, quasi any meaning to words and can so influence the populace. And that's the problem, for instance, on the subject of science some muslim interpret the quran to be proscience: studying science make you closer to the mind of God. Others think all answer are in the quran: science is useless.
That's just splitting hairs, an idea is a powerful thing and an idea requires interpretation to be--well an idea. Comparably, on some level people kill people, but that doesn't mean it's ok to sell guns to developing countries who are on the precipice of civil war...Another example is how the bible is absolute garbage--if you interpret it without being influenced by other people, you know like a sane person would. But Christianity is far removed from a rational interpretation.
@dookiecheez Do you think you are rational yourself? Why? What proove that an atheist is right in is belief that there is no god? Science? NO, Science is Agnostic, Science can't respond to the answer that there is God or that there is none.
It's not because you are atheist that you are rational. An atheist can also be irrational and a religious can be rational. Newton for instance: a religious rational mind. Atheist does not equal rational Keep that in mind.
You misunderstand what atheism is. It is not a belief, it the rejection of a claim, and not in itself a claim at all. Science is not a belief either, and is in no way at all related to atheism, philosophy, or religion.
I can't quite recall mentioning being an atheist or how it would be relevant, or even proposing that I am a superior rational mind. Atheism is a rational stance on a single issue, period. Religious beliefs are not rational, and yes the people who have them can be.
I love when people try to use iconic religious scientists in there arguments. It doesn't matter what you were before the 1800's my friend, as you were raised since childhood in a pragmatic religious, in newtons case Christian, household and society. Newton was a heretic of his time, and in all actuality was probably not nearly as religious as anyone thought. But heresy was a real threat, and no'one likes being excommunicated for thinking outside the box.
@Shundra fairy tails of the world, religion has raped and pillaged every scientific effort to better our understanding of the world and universe around us, and through the process, our lives. Religion is a direct roadblock to the betterment and equality of mankind. A plague that spreads ignorance in vein attempts to keep leeching off anyone it can get it's grubby little fingers on. And as reason and logic come closer to debunking the ridiculous thing, i'm sure it will flail till its last breath.
@TheKumby First, of all you didn't watch my video, because it's not what i have said in it. I specifically said that the religion may be a factor, but following the different report is not the only one, the prominent factor is politic, that use religion to keep the mass ignorant or to advance science for the religious agenda.
@TheKumby 2ndly by reacting as you have you are equal to a religious zealot: when someone put facts and data in front of your eyes you don't read it: you have preconceived idea you will stick to them and everything that go against will be discarded. Welcome to the world of Religious Atheism.
When you will start to really have an open mind and a rational thinking, you will look into the data and will be able to argue with me based on facts and reality not on your perception. BE a damn freethinker
@Shundra They never watch the facts presented in videos when the facts support us, they blindly follow YT big boys without thinking for themselves, is TF even a scientist to begin with ?
Great job on the video my country Oman is in the stats, I did not expect that. PEACE
@TheKumby Actually during middle ages, Church/pope were big hinderance to scientific development, but on the other hand islam,Greeks, Indians and chinese, thier religious head/beleifs played a major role (mostly) in scientific development. for example Muslims/zaraostrians(persian) empire came into creation only after inroduction of thier religions.
So thirteen of the top twenty devolping nations are not muslim.
The correlation has greater to do with access to technology, ability to waste time and money on things other than food and war, and the ability to secure money for your research. Percentage growth is not... a good indicator. It is easier to have higher percentages of growth when your numbers are low to begin with, agreed?
Also, it would be interesting to see what types papers are publish and how they are recieved.
@RPfishh in the top 20 i give there was countries like south Korea, Taiwan, Singapour which are in my opinion more developed countries then developing one... And keep in mind that 82% of the world produce 22.9% of knowledge so Muslim are only 1/4 (20%) of this so you should have seen 5 countries in the top 20 normally... Then you are right but growth show that there is no "Stasis" and if we take the case of Iran the country as now more publication then sweden or switzerland...
@RPfishh Furthermore, I totally agree with the critics of the quality of papers... however data are hard to find, I only have them for Iran and Turkey in the physic they have a RCI 0.344 for Turkey and 0.48 for Iran, that mean for iran for instance that 48% of the papers published are cited which in my opinion is pretty good... Keep it mind I didn't had much time for research, but already find that the accusation of stasis and "it's only the fault of Religion" are very very weak.
@Shundra If someone says that it is only the fault of religion, I think it is a bit of a false correlation. There are many greater factors, such as the availability of education, the ability for children to recieve an education. etc. You probably could have overlaid those same maps with maps of poverty, developement, literacy, and basic education levels. Religion might stop some from pursuing science, but it is not the main cause for less scientific studies in a country.
@RPfishh I totally agree and that's my main point when I criticize Thunderfoot which basically attribute the poor number of publication to only religion, that's a pretty poor observation...
Furthermore you have a really great idea... it should be interesting to see map with poverty and then a map whit the number of publication...
@johnnystorm28 you had for the two comment two times +6 in a very short time, obviously, you did call your friends or you have multiple account, so no. For me every comment is equal and i desactivate the + or the - as you see.
That's why I suppressed your comment, you are free to put them back.
Just because some more people agree with in a small time regardless they were right or wrong doesn't make you right to delete them. Your accusations are no different than TF's lies. Why the fuck would I want them to +6 or +infinity or have shitty utube accounts, I just said what was right, if large people agree with me doesn't always make me right or not, perhaps you should delete this video and agree with what TF said as many people agree with him. Its just makes me feel
it just makes me feel that you are afraid of truth, you should have debated them and have a good argument, now that you have deleted them, its very shameful on your part.
For you all fucking comments may be equal, this is utube, when you say something, you are absolutely going to be debated, change this video's settings that only TF can see this.
Why the fuck did you enable ratings then to this video, you stupid peace of shit?
Sorry for wasting my time on highly ego shitted fuck
@johnnystorm28 You have a really childish attitude... so your comment are no more on the top and you begin to cry? Who have the oversized ego? Behave yourself.
Do you know what? Irans Improvement you pointed out and Turkey is secularized... Oman also had taken great efforts for better education. But that doesn't disprove in any way, that the religion is detrimental to the scientific knowledge, and i would really be shocked, if anyone seeing thunderf00ts videos would think, that there is only one reason for scientific failure: Islam!
But did thunderf00t really want to say that? I would not think so.
@mardastheEitheist Well that's the message that most think... and futhermore you point that "the religion is detrimental to the scientific knowledge", as I learned there is 3 current of thinking now in Islam countries:
(1)Natural science are not bad only western Human science are bad because of their anti religion (2) Science need to be developed not in a western way, but a science friendly Islam way (only for Human science) (3) Western science is too materialist and not enough spiritualist.
@mardastheEitheist Of course, some science discipline are rejected by part of the Islamic world: evolution, cosmology... But, Muslim currently critic the way science is done in the West... I mean if you look at Iran which has a tremendous scientific knowledge augmentation... the religious power are right behind pushing science: they accepted and pushed, unlike USA, Stem cell research. It's not the whole Islam which is against science... far from it.
@mardastheEitheist To finish, you should be more concern by the fact that in some Islamic countries, religious are pushing science (with great success) to augment their power. This could of course backfire on them (more knowledge less religion)... But if they tame the science... In conclusion:
I am amazed by Iran Achievement in science in a such short period of time, but I am also scared because the one having and beneficing from this science advancement are ultimately the religious power.
You can't only take Iran here, its shia islam also being at least liberalized, but Iran is the only way here. And also Iran is using science only, when it needs it.
At least the rise in Iran's publications can be explained it being much higher before 1978 and then only going back to the previous statistic value.
At least:
Religion is still detrimental to science, although its influence can be diminished and it has been the case in Iran, although many don't know that.
@mardastheEitheist Can you show me your source? Can you prove that your last sentence is generalizable to every time and every place with proper statistic (eg econometric model)?
Furthermore, i would like to see the data of "much higher before 1978 and then only going back to the previous statistic value", That's not what i have saw... I would really enjoy having your source.
That is only, what i would expect, because the video also alluded that. 1978 there was the revolution and chaos, after that the war, so in that time science may not be the first to do... I don't know that, but i would expect that, because the data begins with 1980 till 1994, directly after the revolution and the war, where science may not have been so important.
But i would say, that Iran is not a typical example of the islamic state of today. It is industrialized and solid.
@mardastheEitheist expectation is just the begining, then you have to prove your point with data. And that's one of my reproach with Tf: He just give data and present than has proof, but in reality, this data prove nothing this is not reason it's perception.
Iran is not a typical example... what do you define as typical? Are you stereotyping islamic state? Each country is specific, once again you musn't oversimplified the problem of everyone by making an oversimplification of reality.
@mardastheEitheist I should also give you my vision : "Religion is still detrimental to SOME scientific fields (eg Evolution, Cosmologies...) not all scientific field..." And it depend the type of religion: Amish, Taliban =/= Moderate Islam or Moderate Christian, as i told you the view of science is view differently by many people: " To understand better god" or "something coming from the devil" would be the two extreme in religion mentality. Do not, like Thunder, oversimplified the problem.
Yeah, but with that i didn't want to say, that scientific actions are denied because of religious problems, i meant more the pressure of "keeping rooted in islam" and so on, which is still there in my school here in Germany. I think, that even becoming theologian is detrimental to science, he doesn't produce anything.
And i even don't know, if tf had really meant that... But he is only no politician, historian or sociologist ;), he is a scientist, so he is really not in the right track.
@mardastheEitheist unfortunately Iran's determined to create nuclear weapons and considering their stance on Islam - we are screwed. (similar to N. Korea)
One factor that most discussions on topics where the number of published papers is considered relevant is that those discussions themselves gave rise to the modern trend of "publish or perish", inflating the number of papers released and diminishing the actual contribution per paper. Any such analysis should work with relative numbers of papers, not absolute ones.
@garouHH This is true. I am currently looking for those data on the developing world which are hard to find...
However, even if the number of papers the most cited are still low, we can't denies that there is actually a growth of publications in those countries and also a growth of co author or partnership (mainly with European countries) in the writing of those article... I doubt that this growth and this interest of europe is all related to "publish or perish" phenomenon... I need data...
I think you miss the obvious point that the muslims countries are likely in the "developing world" just because islam has held them back. They would be far better off without islam suffucating free thought and critical inquiry.
@CreativeFreedoms If it was true you would be a genius and could partially have answered a dilemma that have puzzled economist for decades. But in fact, that would bring an other question: why countries in Christian Africa and Latin America or Buddhist Asia that aren't under the influence of Islam are in the same position with scientific publications?
Surely Islam can be a factor (Weber proved is point with the "Prostestant Work Ethic") but it 's surely not the only one or the most important.
There are of course other reasons why societies have not prioritized education or why education has not been available but in the case of islam it becomes clear if you read the islamic texts that this mentality comes directly from their prophet Muhammad. A deathpenalty for questioning the Quran can do a lot to stifle critical inquiry and curiousity.
Abu Dawud 40:4590
The Apostle of Allah said: Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error.
@CreativeFreedoms Islam interpretation are different... furthermore what you are mentioning here is not the Quran but an hadith (roughly Islam juriprudence) used only by sunni muslim... Not by the shia. So now an other question why shia and sunni that have different hadith and interpretation of Islam are more or less at the same level of development?
By the way, you should stop assuming that every muslim country are like Saudi Arabia or Somalia: Using backward sharia law... it is not the case.
Sunnis are 80% of muslims. Shia Iran is a bit more developed in parts but they still have the same prophet with the same mentality overall and they all use the same Quran:
Quran 5:101-102
O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers.
The Prophet said, "Allah has hated for you three things:
1. Vain talks.
2. Wasting of wealth
3. And asking too many questions or asking others for something."
Quran 4:115
And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell.
@CreativeFreedoms Let's make it clear: You are oversimplifying the situation. A great deal of the muslim world don't look in the quran for every answer. Islam may be a factor but it's NOT the only one neither the most important. You are making the simple assumption developing country= Islam...Until you find me a proper scientific paper saying that Islam is the only and determinant factor that put muslim countries into developing state. You will just waste time showing that the quran is backward
No I didn't make that assumption if you read what I said but I understand that you find it easier to critique me if you assume the worst. I said there are other reasons but when it comes to islamic countries islam is the number one stifler of progress. This goes back to the behavior and mentality of Muhammad that muslim emulate. The radicals are usually in power and control education they don't have much interest in education other then the Quran.
@CreativeFreedoms I am sorry your assumption was the other way around Islam= Developing Country... but it can be the other way around and even partly circular: Developing country= Islam.
And again you are stereotyping the whole muslim world when you say: "The radicals are usually in power and control education they don't have much interest in education other then the Quran."... Let's take the example of Jordan where the rulers have an emphasis on education > queen Rania.
2. Science is not waste of wealth, its a knowledge to save wealth, lives and to survive..
3. Quran Chapter 4: Women, Verse 115
"As for him who opposes the messenger, after the guidance has been pointed out to him, and follows other than the believers' way, we will direct him in the direction he has chosen, and commit him to Hell; what a miserable destiny!"
You misquoted bullshitt, and even its in Quran, you have quoted it out of context.
You didn't said what questions not to ask about and to whom.
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
I did not misquote, my verse says the same as yours but from a different translator (Mohsin Khan)
What you quoted there (60:8) has nothing to do with scientific progress. You just seem to be set on showing that islam is not a "bad" religion. Stick to the subject.
And the British took over most of the Muslim world and colonized it and ruled for over 200 years just because of Islam as well, right? And Islam is also to be blamed because they destroyed the natural growth of Muslim societies, stole their natural resources and left them impoverished. Don't just shout science all day long, try to think scientifically.
The are more modern mostly because of oil money and import, not because of education has spawned development and research among the population. Certainly not because of islam.
Sugar from sugarcane, coffee, gas mask, comb, hurricane lamp, spinning wheel, guitar, graph paper, cough syrup, confectionary(as sugar prod was high), dressing and bandage, pin hole camera, fireproof paper, glow-in-the-dark ink, carpet, early rocket artillery, Abus gun(early form of bazooka) etc etc are some inventions by Muslims in medieval time. Read some history and do some research rather than blasting out.
Give me a break, we are talking about general trends here. I'm not sying that no inventions at all have come from muslim countries. They never manage to enslave everybodie's minds completely. Some curious souls still manages to produce things despite the whip of Allah.
"Some curious souls still manages to produce things despite the whip of Allah."
What do you say about Avicenni and Averroes then? They were proud to be Muslim and followed Quran verse by verse
Please don't just criticize past 1400 years and present 1.57 bn peoples faith just by simply reading from other hate websites, take some time, do your own research, read history and esp. Quran, from start till end with an open mind.
I have read the Quran thank you and it is the most horrible book I have read. The fact that it is made up makes it even more sinister. I have also studied islamic theology and Muhammad is one of the worst rolemodels one could think of. If you don't agree you have either not read the texts or have a very low moral standard by my standards.
I don't think "faith" is a virtue so I criticize what I want no matter how many people are following any perticular cult.
Your comments reflect the manner in which you have studied Quran and how much scientific you are, I see your comments being supported by true statistics, reports, data, LMAO, lol, liars like you exist in the world, no matter what, your common sense is clouded by fear and hate towards Islam. I am off with you, you are not ready to see the facts, I can argue with a person who is ready to gain knowledge by means of good dialogue and not by hatred. You are totally false, ;-(
How about this fact: 61% of the quran deals with condemning disbelievers in diffrent ways. I would say that is an unhealthy obsession with disbelievers.
Or how about this: 68% of british muslims think that anybody who "insults islam" should be arrested and prosecuted according to a survey. That warrants some serious critique in my view.
If you see any hate in my comments it is because I am forwarding what is in the islamic texts.
The term role model generally means any "person who serves as an example, whose behaviour is emulated by others"
If Muhammed is the worst role model, then why are there more than 1 billion people emulate his behaviour, are you the more intelligent than 1.57 bn humans??
Get real, most of them don't know much about Muhammad. Most have not even read the Quran and certainly not other relevant islamic texts. They get their information filtered through the imams.
@johnnystorm28 Argumentum ad populum fallacy. This kind of argument is pathetic. When, before Galileo, the whole population on earth believed that the son revolve around earth were they right? No.It's NOT because the majority believe in something that it make this something true.
Now if you and Creative could stop your sterile debat on the quran...
Iran is an pure Islamic regime and it scientific growth in this decade in 11 times greater than the average scientific growth of whole world.
6th century to 15th century was a pure Islamic Caliphate Regime, in which such incredible inventions took place, so, don't say something if you don't know anything which is true.
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stevenrc33 2 months ago
iam mirror it ..i hope u won,t mind
multixenon54 4 months ago
its was good experience to find ur channel on youtube .very imformative
multixenon54 4 months ago
Would like to point out that the one with the largest growth (at 5:00) was turkey who has a secular Parliamentary democracy for government. Also like 80% of both the graph and of the growth has been in 3 countries. Also just pointing out Muslims only make up 16% of Israel. So if you looked at 1980s..the middle is really did very little in the way of papers compared to the world. With the increase of freedom and the increasing amount of education we starting to see the large growth now.
Theimmortalwhitewolf 6 months ago
If they need finacial investment so bad why arent they helping themselves? The oil rih Arab states dont exactly run to each other's aid so why should anyone else help them? Cant they do anything themselves? Maybe buy a few less Bentleys with all that Oil money and invest in themselves? Take for instance, the HUGE amount of money donated to the Palestinian cause by the rich Islamic states...(Sarcasm). Well hey at least they get to blame evil European colonialism-oh wait wasnt the US a colony too?
mucephi1 6 months ago
@mucephi1 "Well hey at least they get to blame evil European colonialism-oh wait wasnt the US a colony too?"
So wait, are you saying that because the US was a successful colony European colonialism was good? Are you fucking kidding me?
philateliceun 4 months ago
@philateliceun No im not kidding you- the USA WAS in fact a colony. Are you KIDDING me by saying that european colonialism is the reason why no Arab country on earth donates a rats ass to the palestinian cause? Seriously stop making excuses and do something constructive besides whine like a bitch. Whatever wrongs have been done in the ancient past is no excuse for arabs turning a blind eye to the plight of other arabs- who do you think you are selling that bullshit to?
mucephi1 4 months ago
@mucephi1 What the fuck are youtalking about? It just looked as if you used the US as an argument for saying Colonialism was good. I don't give a flying fuck about arabs and whatever plight they should have according to you. And I didn't ask you if the USA was a colony I asked you if you just said that because it was a succesfull colony that colonialism was good.
philateliceun 4 months ago
@philateliceun Anything that is successuful and benefits people can be considered good. The "colony" that was the USA changed the world forever, saved the world from Nazi and communist rule, and did more for Arab nations in the form of aid etc than any arab nation does to help their own. That is what I think is pathetic and the real point of this arguement.
mucephi1 4 months ago
@mucephi1 what? So the looting and slave trading was all good because we have the USA? Erasing entire cultures from the face of the earth was good because we now have Pizza Hut and Coca Cola? Talk about indoctrination.
philateliceun 4 months ago
@philateliceun The world is safer because of the US military not pizza hut you moron. And yes it was worth wiping out whole cultures- that has happenned all throughout history and STILL does not explain the apparent hatred and disdain arabs have for each other.
mucephi1 4 months ago
@mucephi1 Ok thanks for showing your true opinions. I have nothing else to add.
philateliceun 4 months ago
I like how you eliminate Russia and all former Russian states completly. Do you include them all as Europe? If you dont include them at all doesnt that warp all of this even further? Aree you saying the Russians are stupid people? lols I love how pure bullshit c an be so utterly manipulated to serve your fallacious arguments. You also leave out two whole other continents. Produce some honest numbers and Ill watch this cra- er stuff again. And dont tell me you arent manipulating all of this.
mucephi1 6 months ago
The "4 times faster growth than other countries" comment at 3:27 is almost negligible. Why? Think of it this way. If on my old street (say 10 houses), everyone eats apples. And if per household, there are 20 apples eaten per day (say each household is large). The exception is my house, we eat 1 apple a day, and suddenly we start to eat 4 apples in a day, we've eaten 4 times as many apples, but still is a significantly low number of apples compared to the rest. You understand the metaphor?
xenxander 7 months ago
If all those immigrants that came to study are not only not counted as arab but counted as canadians or americans or ''westerners'' if I can say ... Then the stats are very flawed... Every universities I went to had a LOT of arabs post graduate students... That's the thing that bothered me the most about Tf00t's video ...
* In my previous comment I meant : ''This is non neglectable ''
(sorry for the mistake, I'm french !!! I mis-spoke!!
Cheers, peace, and love
659851 9 months ago
@659851
"Every universities I went to had a LOT of arabs post graduate students"
Which is indicative of a larger problem, that they must go abroad to study particularly in the sciences, the edumacational infrastructure is not well developed- one of the many reasons being the fundamentalists don't like their people edumacated very much (or else they'll begin critical evaluating things which they're not supposed to: religion).
TurboDally 9 months ago
@TurboDally
Your right, but a lot of them come for post graduate studies ... meaning that they already have a very good education ... But your right, This indicates a problem ... I first saw it as: they must have something good ... But at the same time ... they must really lack something ... cause lets be honnest .. I dont think there's a lot of ''american/canadian/european'' post graduate students in arab universities !!
Good point.
Cheers!
659851 9 months ago
Having studied in a couple universities, I would also argue that a hell of a lot of post graduate students or publishers (I studied engineering) are arabs/moderate muslims. So if all these people that came to Canada or France or other countries to have an opportunity are not counted. I'm sur they would make a difference in the stats. Where I made my masters degree. I'd say about 15 to 20% (un-sourced... just estimating but still) are muslims. This is non negociable.
Got a be careful with stat
659851 9 months ago
the fastest growing muslim countries in terms of science here are Turkey and Iran. What a surprise: a country which fought islam for decades through radical secularisation, + a muslim dictatorship trying to move into the global arms race, building laboratories in the desert while keeping the general population in an iron grip
I would still argue if science is advancing in muslim countries now it's because they have been severely shaken out of their comfort with the development of the new media
neoZykl 9 months ago
@neoZykl
Iran's scientific progress is born out of fear of the U.S and the need for better weapons research to close the widening gap in weaponology , While for Turkey its purely economic.
Obasiliasfilosofos 8 months ago
Chile has a population of 17 million compared to Egypt's population of 79 million, so you should adjust for population.
Also, you complain about developing vs. developed, but you don't take into account the amount of oil a lot of these Muslim countries have. That oil means they are generally financially well off and should be considered developed. Saudi Arabia's GDP is higher than Thailand and South Africa, but behind those in scientific research.
BrotherAlpha 10 months ago
@BrotherAlpha That's actually a very false way to look at things.. The US is very very wealthy.. But not yet even close to the state of development of Western Europe.. Development actually has nothing to do with money.. Its more of a result that comes after development...
TTFLS 10 months ago
@TTFLS Could you try and rephrase that?
BrotherAlpha 10 months ago
@BrotherAlpha Well I can, but I doubt it will make any difference.. Its simple.. The state of development has nothing to do with money, which is the opposite of the conclusion you drew in the comment I initially responded too... Saudi Arabia is not developed at all.. Even economy wise.. If the oil dries up or is no longer needed, they have nothing.. Oil, tourism and aid is the only thing that is keeping the middle east from hungering itself out, or get to action to develop of course...
TTFLS 10 months ago
@TTFLS How is that helping your case? They have money, they could spend it on development, but choose not to.
And how is the U.S. far less developed than Western Europe?
BrotherAlpha 10 months ago
@BrotherAlpha Nope, because you are defining 'They' wrong.. 'They' as you call them, have shit to do with the actual people.. Just like you and me have shit to do with those corrupts leaders and shadow governments in our countries, even in a democracy.. As you can see in the middle east, people will try to free themselves from the tyrannic concept that is called 'leadership'.. They always have and always will.. Has nothing to do with them but with humanity as a whole..
TTFLS 10 months ago
@BrotherAlpha As for the development issue.. Their country is very young.. And a lot of their problems remain hidden because they are doing so well financially.. Kinda like the Romans or the Islamic Caliphate.. It all goes well as long as the money keeps on pooring in.., But as their power will decrease, their cash flow etc, you will see clear sings of all the things they have yet to do to make their society more livable..
TTFLS 10 months ago
@BrotherAlpha Don't get me wrong, the future belongs the other nations in the world.. Its their time now.. Not to mention we even got this far together.. But its a fact that the European way of doing things for now, is far superior, with the thanks of others I repeat, to any other system in the world..
TTFLS 10 months ago
OK, at 2:10 you have a graph showing all Muslim countries (with the notable exception of Iran) in the bottom and you say it supports your POV? If you correct your data per capita, the results may be more astonishing but you may not like them.
Then, 4 times growth (3:28) in absolute numbers is easily achieved if you start low: you had one paper, now you have 4, nevermind your neighbour's growth from 150 to 200.
empusa23bis 10 months ago
Who gives a shit if the useless dogma is Islam, or Christianity, or whatever. The point is that the non-religious segment of the worlds population produces so overwhelmingly more of useful knowledge than the religious nutcases.
And I bet that the scientific elite in Iran are not very religiously preverted compared to most of the Islamic world.
Siddis33 11 months ago
You are looking at the tip of the iceberg and saying Non-Muslims had a more output than Muslims in science.
If you do a deeper study about the evolution of science the contributions of Muslims is much more. I'm a ex-muslim atheist, and I was looking for videos supporting my belief till I saw this.
Ex- christian atheists make great counter-arguments towards christian-creationists, but I can't find anything about islam.All you do is say how terrible muslims are, not why Islam is wrong.
interfan63 11 months ago
@interfan63 It's because it is hard to define exactly how much they have helped, mostly because they had a lot of ideas taken out from the older Greek ideas, plus less exact historycal data(if I'm not wrong).
About the anti-muslim counter arguments... They believe in basically the same Divinity, with a different name and a different prophet. The counter arguments are basically the same... with the exception of the trinity stuff. I'm personally against the Shariah, not the belief itself.
AkaiTsukiShimitsu 11 months ago
@interfan63 Islam is wrong because of the same reason why EVERY religion is wrong.
It´s simply delusional.
Kokainuser 10 months ago
Good video. More people need to read "How to Lie with Statistics" before they make hasty conclusions or believe someone like Thunderfoot. Relative frequency is more important than frequency, and especially when comparing countries that are so different socioeconomically, you have to control for a LOT of variables
ikkuj 1 year ago
Oh and that's not my opinion, it's what many western historians and intellects say.
Perseveranze 1 year ago
Salaam(peace),
Qatar just recently discovered a New Planet.
Anyways, the current west should thank the Muslim countries in the mid centuries for being able to get out the dark ages and advancing to what it is today.
Perseveranze 1 year ago
Well done thanks
norehct 1 year ago
I dont think thunderf00t was making many of the points your argueing against.
BlackMetalWarewolf 1 year ago
Why is Israel on the graph over muslims countries?
TheMightySwe 1 year ago
Point made. However, I think the point that Thunderf00t was getting at was the Islamic extremism and how it effects the politics of a certain area, not the other way around. Islam in and of itself is the reason there are Islamic extremists in the world. Knowledge creation may be gaining in Islamic countries, but they still have a long way to go. I'm currently in Afghanistan and can see first hand how knowledge hasn't even touched these people for some time. Peace.
cowburn28 1 year ago
frankly, if someone doesn't have 7 and a half minutes to read this and absorb the information, then they need to stay the fuck out of politics all together : ) lol
Koldatt 1 year ago
nice hockey stick graph at 3:01
l33th0b0 1 year ago
the bottom line is science is not part of religion no matter how much religious people attempt to conflate the two. But the politics of religion unfortunately can affect the practice of science. Thunderfoot's essential point remains valid because the volume of scientific research from the countries he mentioned is very low. Saying it's increasing at a fast rate is great but still just means an already very low number even doubled or tripled, can remain very low.
dubbleplusgood 1 year ago
@dubbleplusgood i dont understand why people think science and religion conflict... if i made a metal ball, and somone took it and studied what it is made out of and all the chemicals, does that then mean that it has no creator? of course not! science is just the material and methods that the creator used when making the universe. Science amplifies the glory of God. what is the problem?
live2givesadaqa 1 year ago
@live2givesadaqa it's an excellent question I wish I had a neat answer for. I will say this, the definition of science itself, does not allow for things that cannot be tested. I can say God exists or a Flying Spaghetti Monster exists or a Unicorn exists - but if I can't ever prove it, it's not science. God is in the gaps is a good expression to understand why many people, including many famous scientists, were religious. Once they couldn't figure out a problem any further, they said God did it.
dubbleplusgood 1 year ago
@dubbleplusgood thanks for the response. But you see I do not believe in a God of the gaps at all. I do not believe in god just because i dont understand some things and therefore it must be god. nono, i believe god created the things i understand and the things i do not understand but maybe some day will. I still do not see the problem with God in science. Unless somone believes in a god of the gaps, but i do not subscribe to that whatsoever
live2givesadaqa 1 year ago
@dubbleplusgood
Plenty of 20th century scientists and physicists believed in God, not for a "God of the gaps" scientific reason, but for personal reasons on reflection of life and philosophy. It's pretty recent that people started being so dogmatic about science and atheism, so much so that they try to grandfather in great thinkers of the past by claiming "they just didn't know any better" when that's just not the case.
ikkuj 1 year ago
This is bit biased as you are considering the time frame of like last 50-100 years. But if you consider last 1000 years the major contribution to scinece has been mainly made by Arabs, Indian and chinese. the present day Europe and Japan hardly had any contribution. The scientific development is not in isolation but it has been dveloped for thousands of year by various countries and civilizations like Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Greeks, romans and later by europeans and Americans.
msiddiqui135 1 year ago
@msiddiqui135 I guess the following non-Arab/Indian/Chinese scientists don't count: Newton, Fleming, Salk, Teller, Levi-Strauss, Dalton, Lamark, Darwin, Leeuwenhoek, Einstein, Pasteur, Galileo, Kepler, Faraday, Boas, Heisenberg, Maxwell, Copernicus, Hubble, Curie, Rutherford, Schrodinger, Thomson, Crick, Haller, Koch, Fisher, Liebig, Euler, Fermi, Born, Watson, Wegener, Bethe, Erkich, Delbruck, Sanger, Libby, Vesalius, Descartes, Pascal, Hooke, Franklin, Bernoulli, etc.
dubbleplusgood 1 year ago
@dubbleplusgood My whole idea was that credit should be given to other civilizations like Arab/Greeek/Indian/Chinese as well for the immense contribution to the science over centuries, a fact that lots of western history ignores.
msiddiqui135 1 year ago
Incredibly well done.
LittleBlueBird 1 year ago
Even your chart proves Thunderf00t's point. China out performs every single Muslim country put together. Why? Because China has forsaken superstition more than 60 years ago! That's why?
mjh012363 1 year ago
@mjh012363 On a per capita basis, China would be far behind Iran, though.
darkmiles22 1 year ago
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@darkmiles22 "On a per capita basis, China would be far behind Iran, though."
Far behind? Iran only produces approx. 1.67 more papers per capita than China (according to Sundra's chart.) Also Iran has about twice the GDP per capita than China. Either way that doesn't change the fact that China far surpasses the entire Islamic world which has about the same population as China does.
mjh012363 1 year ago
@mjh012363 Stop thinking like a religous zealot: you don't dig in the problem, you don't make research, but yet you shit reason out of your ass.... Idiot; I am sorry but that the truth; Be a fucking THINKER.China had fewer then 1000 papers in 1981 (source Science Metrix).
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra Your on chart shows that China had over 80,000. So what is your point about the situation in China for one year 29 years ago!
mjh012363 1 year ago
@mjh012363 You know why China develop science? LAW: See the reform of Deng Xiaoping. What he did is OPEN china one:
one of the reform is that every foreign company MUST make a joint venture with a local company (50/50). And so because of this China absorbed knowledge from the developed world. Furthermore, to respect the 50/50 foreign company and local company had to develop the local knowledge and so the local scientific pool. (spill effect)
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra And your point?? It still shows China was far more open to science than Islamic world!
mjh012363 1 year ago
@mjh012363 My point? China didn't was open 60 years ago like you said. My point? Only the littoral in China is developed the rest of countries is literally a mirror of Africa: Their development and scientific publication is the same then Africa= NOTHING
My point: Even if we take out China let me just ask you what do you make of the other 155 countries? Lack of production of scientific publication due to Islam obviously... Oh wait that account only for 54 countries, damn what about the 101left?
Shundra 1 year ago
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mjh012363 1 year ago
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@Shundra "...what do you make of the other 155 countries? Lack of production of scientific publication due to Islam obviously... Oh wait that account only for 54 countries, damn what about the 101left?""
That's because they have their own brands of superstition: Voodoo in Haiti, Animism in Africa (as well as Islam), Hinduism in India (though they seem to put that aside more), Buddhism in many other asian countries...
mjh012363 1 year ago
@mjh012363 . Notice are you carefully avoid Latine America.. Why? Christian country much like US yet produce just a little more paper then the Islamic world...and definitively not as much as US. Why? Because, Religion is not the cause of every fucking misery in this world.
Please make actual research before any further comment, I want a source to back your point of view (ie: If this country sucks at science it's only because of religion).
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra "Notice are you carefully avoid Latine America.. Why?"
OK; Latin America is plagued with Santeria. BTW America is beginning to slip into its own backwardness thanks to the Evangelicals. See Thunderf00t's "Way Do Creationist Get Laughed At" Episode 21.
mjh012363 1 year ago
@mjh012363 Okay your last post give me 3 options: (1) you are a Troll (2) you are an idiot (3) You have no rational mind or Free thinking ability. I think you are a mix from the 3.
I ask you for a good argument, with a solid proof ( I was waiting for a research paper or a book reference) but you come with what? TF video, the exact same video were he just spit is opinion and where a lot of people began to loose trust in him. Opinion are no fact, No source= no proof. No proof= no point.
Shundra 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Shundra "...the exact same video were he just spit is opinion and where a lot of people began to loose trust in him."
Er..."Way Do Creationists Get Laughed At?" series is two years old and highly rated.
"I ask you for a good argument, with a solid proof ( I was waiting for a research paper or a book reference)..."
Er...something that is self evident doesn't need proof.
.
"Okay your last post give me 3 options:..."
There's a 4th option: You've gotten pwned badly.
mjh012363 1 year ago
@Shundra Newton kept his religious beliefs private as anyone would. The point is, religion has used every trick in the book to survive, from your friendly crusade's, to the super luxurious threat of excommunication under free thought and open beliefs that weren't augmented towards god the savior. Religion is anti reason kind sir, and it is certainly not rational. Religion accepted science in it's infancy, but now that it's threatening, with observation and reason, to overthrow the 3000 year old
TheKumby 1 year ago
I'm not so sure about the resource curse affecting science, though. The amount of science getting done in a country would seem to me to be more a product of the number of people, the amount of per capita wealth to devote to progress and higher learning left after buying necessities, and attitudes toward science. And I found an article establishing a negative correlation between religiosity and favorable attitudes toward science at Purdue:
bit. ly/bohxmd
darkmiles22 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 It have an important impact i am pretty sure, basically let's take the case of Saudi Arabia... When they need something they aren't going to buy from local, They are going to buy it from the exterior because they have money: they don't care about the price, they don't try to develop the state...
See "Rentier State" in Wikipedia ;"therefore does not require a strong domestic productive sector" No local sector = no need for local scientist.
Shundra 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 Hey, i am interested in the article can you send me the link in a personal message? Thanks!
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra Hi shundra, did darkmiles22 send you the link?
michelleobamam 9 months ago
It is fairly clear that you had the idea of adjusting for wealth, Shundra, since you eliminated the wealthy countries. Unfortunately, by not adjusting the rest for wealth, all you did was get rid of many of the non-Muslim-dominated countries that are beating the Muslim-dominated ones. I'm not sure if this was accidental or intentional, but the effect is that your figures here are skewed to make Islam look better.
Also, Tf00t's figure was simplistic, but at least he adjusted for population.
darkmiles22 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 I did not get rid of anything the figure I took were from the articles I mentioned that give a global picture of a region or of continent. The only countries that weren't take into consideration in the report, and that I regret, were eastern european countries and Russia. Furthermore if you begin with the factor *wealth* you must also take into account were it come from, natural resource are known in economy ( Natural ressource curse) to have a detrimental effect on a whole country.
Shundra 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 And well let resume: Observation Thunderfoot, (1) Islam is to be blame for the lack of publication =/= well there is other factors and comparing with other countries at the same level of development there is the same problem of publication ergo Islam is not the only factor or the determinant factor of the lack of publication. (2) TF: Islam countries are in stasis for the last 800 years and this continue to day =/= well there is an important growth of papers in the Islam world.
Shundra 1 year ago
I liked the video, and I appreciated the attempt at deeper research on this fascinating question that Tf00t introduced. Unfortunately, the measures you cited, namely number and growth in scientific publications by country, are confounded by population and GDP as well as growth in either factor respectively. It is impossible to separate the effect of Islam from the noise until you chart the # of pubs / (population * GDP).
darkmiles22 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 Totally agree if you are interested on the subject Timur Kuran the economist made a paper in 2002 I think on the subject.
However the point of this video was not to show the "effect of Islam" ( I mean in 24hour after the original video was posted ...). It was more to denounce the lack of research of Thunderfoot and is hastily jumping to the conclusion (1) "Islam is the only cause of the lack of research" (2) the Islam world is in stasis in research.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra Thanks for the quick reply and the reference = )
I definitely agree that there are many variables at play here. I just cross referenced the 2005 World Bank data on # of Scientific and Technical Journal articles with their 2008 GDP for 90 countries, and GDP accounts for 90% of the variance in the data, though if you eliminate the U.S. and Japan that number drops to 70%. Interesting stuff, but one last word in defence of Thunderf00t: there really is no easy way to get these stats.
darkmiles22 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 I agree that there is no easy way to find the stat but that in no way excuse Thunderfoot to take a statistics and jump to the conclusion and present it as a fact: this a very poor argumentation.
Shundra 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 Another way of looking at wealth that might be more informative than GDP is % population below the poverty line. GDP doesn't tell you much, average income per capita tells you slightly more but % below poverty line gives you the wealth of the country plus its distribution. It is possible for a country to have a high GDP but be controlled by... say a large despotic family which controls most of the wealth to themselves.
sofiarune 1 year ago
@darkmiles22 @sofiarune you most also take into account were the wealth come from, Ressource Natural Curse is really important in Development Economics a model to test the effect of islam would be to take the whole developing world and make:
number of Scientific Publication= X+ Dummy Islam Countries+ Dummy OPEP + GDP/per capita + Dummy Dictatorship+ Corruption Rate+ Literacy rate+ distance with developed countries+ Violence Rate+ GDP+ poverty line rate etc....
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra In other words, this is way more complicated than Islam = bad for science haha.
sofiarune 1 year ago
This was the best text only video I've ever seen. Good video!
owchywawa 1 year ago
@Shundra
oh woops I forgot to notice that public health went from less than 1% of their papers to slightly greater than 1% of their papers. Oh wow, that's so amazing and it totally changes my point! Not.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez .... Health&care is a subfield of biomedecine, Iran publication in % by field: 25.6% Biomedecine&Biochemisty, Physics&engineering: 30.7%, Chemistry 28.9 etc... (Osareh&Wilson 2002)-
Futhermore:" Iran, China, India and Brazil are the only developing countries among 31 nations with 97.5% of the world's total scientific productivity. The remaining 162 developing countries contribute less than 2.5% of the world's scientific output." (Nature 430, 311; 2004)
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
Four countries or the whole of the DEVELOPING world account for 97.5% of the worlds total scientific productivity? That's a laugh.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez I am wondering if you can actually read... *sight* Try again and try to read slowly and connect the few neurones you have while you do it:
" Iran, China, India and Brazil are the only developing countries among 31 nations with 97.5% of the world's total scientific productivity. The remaining 162 developing countries contribute less than 2.5% of the world's scientific output." (Nature 430, 311; 2004)
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
I'm wondering if you can read.
"97.5% of the world's total scientific productivity" ~Shundra
"account for 97.5% of the worlds total scientific productivity" ~dookiecheez
Notice how only the first two words are different?
Btw sight isn't a verb and the word neuron(s) not neurone(s).
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez Really? You are very disappointing... The text I cited said AMONG the 31 countries that account for 97.5% of the scientific productivity there is only 4 developing countries: Iran, China, India, Brazil. Which mean that the others 27 countries are developed countries. The 2,.5 % scientific productivity that is left is done by 165 countries. Did you understand now?
And criticizing my English writing is really low (1) it's not my mother tongue, (2) I still read it better then you
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
Speaking incoherently and acting smug when other people don't understand you is really pathetic.
Yes now I do understand what you had meant, I had requested via the apparently misunderstood question mark some clarification on this. Let me make this simple, Tf00t said ~20% world pop that is muslim accounts for ~1% of the worlds scientific papers. Even if it was actually ~5 or ~10% of the worlds scientific papers it's still grossly under par, the point remains the same.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez I did not speak incoherently, I was very pacient and took the time to explain you every point of my argumentation making every time careful citation. yet every time you "LOL" or laught at my argumentation (who is being smug?)
Yet you don't understand that the main problem for the fact that publication is not religion... it's the same problems as the 108 other countries which are not Muslims. please read on the subject i have given you the sources... use them.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
I don't see how anything you've said shows any reason why religion isn't a large part of the issues in Islamic states, specifically as it pertains to scientific productivity. Speculating that scientific productivity based on recent growth, ignoring the applications of said science, is improving is almost irrelevant because it has nothing to say about why the situation is as it is. If you want to argue the Quran vs. Sharia law, Hadiths, etc then that's fine--but how many of them wud.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez Currently the Religion is not the problem. One of the problem in some countries is the fusion of Radical Islamist with the gouvernement, do not like a lot of people do, confound religion and the radical... to give an analogy it would be like saying all christian are creationist... So this is one of the main problems as stated in the articles I linked and the UN report 2003 (I have put the link in description you can also read the conclusion of the report in the description).
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
I'm somewhat confused by your wording, if in islamic states parts of islam are part of law as supported by the religious government, and the religious people that they govern then religion is the problem.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez The problem is not the Religion per se. To simplify the religion is only word... What give meaning to word? Interpretation, and that's done by people, Imam if you like, they can give, literally, quasi any meaning to words and can so influence the populace. And that's the problem, for instance, on the subject of science some muslim interpret the quran to be proscience: studying science make you closer to the mind of God. Others think all answer are in the quran: science is useless.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
That's just splitting hairs, an idea is a powerful thing and an idea requires interpretation to be--well an idea. Comparably, on some level people kill people, but that doesn't mean it's ok to sell guns to developing countries who are on the precipice of civil war...Another example is how the bible is absolute garbage--if you interpret it without being influenced by other people, you know like a sane person would. But Christianity is far removed from a rational interpretation.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@dookiecheez Do you think you are rational yourself? Why? What proove that an atheist is right in is belief that there is no god? Science? NO, Science is Agnostic, Science can't respond to the answer that there is God or that there is none.
It's not because you are atheist that you are rational. An atheist can also be irrational and a religious can be rational. Newton for instance: a religious rational mind. Atheist does not equal rational Keep that in mind.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
You misunderstand what atheism is. It is not a belief, it the rejection of a claim, and not in itself a claim at all. Science is not a belief either, and is in no way at all related to atheism, philosophy, or religion.
I can't quite recall mentioning being an atheist or how it would be relevant, or even proposing that I am a superior rational mind. Atheism is a rational stance on a single issue, period. Religious beliefs are not rational, and yes the people who have them can be.
dookiecheez 1 year ago
@Shundra Your video was bad.
I love when people try to use iconic religious scientists in there arguments. It doesn't matter what you were before the 1800's my friend, as you were raised since childhood in a pragmatic religious, in newtons case Christian, household and society. Newton was a heretic of his time, and in all actuality was probably not nearly as religious as anyone thought. But heresy was a real threat, and no'one likes being excommunicated for thinking outside the box.
TheKumby 1 year ago
@TheKumby
I think it's much more common for an atheist to have trouble thinking outside the philosophical box of physical materialism.
ikkuj 1 year ago
@Shundra fairy tails of the world, religion has raped and pillaged every scientific effort to better our understanding of the world and universe around us, and through the process, our lives. Religion is a direct roadblock to the betterment and equality of mankind. A plague that spreads ignorance in vein attempts to keep leeching off anyone it can get it's grubby little fingers on. And as reason and logic come closer to debunking the ridiculous thing, i'm sure it will flail till its last breath.
TheKumby 1 year ago
@TheKumby First, of all you didn't watch my video, because it's not what i have said in it. I specifically said that the religion may be a factor, but following the different report is not the only one, the prominent factor is politic, that use religion to keep the mass ignorant or to advance science for the religious agenda.
Shundra 1 year ago
@TheKumby 2ndly by reacting as you have you are equal to a religious zealot: when someone put facts and data in front of your eyes you don't read it: you have preconceived idea you will stick to them and everything that go against will be discarded. Welcome to the world of Religious Atheism.
When you will start to really have an open mind and a rational thinking, you will look into the data and will be able to argue with me based on facts and reality not on your perception. BE a damn freethinker
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra They never watch the facts presented in videos when the facts support us, they blindly follow YT big boys without thinking for themselves, is TF even a scientist to begin with ?
Great job on the video my country Oman is in the stats, I did not expect that. PEACE
0Idskool 1 year ago
@TheKumby Actually during middle ages, Church/pope were big hinderance to scientific development, but on the other hand islam,Greeks, Indians and chinese, thier religious head/beleifs played a major role (mostly) in scientific development. for example Muslims/zaraostrians(persian) empire came into creation only after inroduction of thier religions.
msiddiqui135 1 year ago
@TheKumby So basically you are saying you are intolerant to other peoples views.
lockdown260 1 year ago
So thirteen of the top twenty devolping nations are not muslim.
The correlation has greater to do with access to technology, ability to waste time and money on things other than food and war, and the ability to secure money for your research. Percentage growth is not... a good indicator. It is easier to have higher percentages of growth when your numbers are low to begin with, agreed?
Also, it would be interesting to see what types papers are publish and how they are recieved.
RPfishh 1 year ago
@RPfishh in the top 20 i give there was countries like south Korea, Taiwan, Singapour which are in my opinion more developed countries then developing one... And keep in mind that 82% of the world produce 22.9% of knowledge so Muslim are only 1/4 (20%) of this so you should have seen 5 countries in the top 20 normally... Then you are right but growth show that there is no "Stasis" and if we take the case of Iran the country as now more publication then sweden or switzerland...
Shundra 1 year ago
@RPfishh Furthermore, I totally agree with the critics of the quality of papers... however data are hard to find, I only have them for Iran and Turkey in the physic they have a RCI 0.344 for Turkey and 0.48 for Iran, that mean for iran for instance that 48% of the papers published are cited which in my opinion is pretty good... Keep it mind I didn't had much time for research, but already find that the accusation of stasis and "it's only the fault of Religion" are very very weak.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra If someone says that it is only the fault of religion, I think it is a bit of a false correlation. There are many greater factors, such as the availability of education, the ability for children to recieve an education. etc. You probably could have overlaid those same maps with maps of poverty, developement, literacy, and basic education levels. Religion might stop some from pursuing science, but it is not the main cause for less scientific studies in a country.
RPfishh 1 year ago
@RPfishh I totally agree and that's my main point when I criticize Thunderfoot which basically attribute the poor number of publication to only religion, that's a pretty poor observation...
Furthermore you have a really great idea... it should be interesting to see map with poverty and then a map whit the number of publication...
Shundra 1 year ago
Very good researched video.
I like it a lot.
Your response to the video is far better than mine.
liekmudkip 1 year ago
@Shundra
You deleted my good 3 comments.
Where is the freedom of speech?
Nothing was wrong in my comments. If you say, there were mistakes, which is not possible, please elaborate me, you *****
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28 you had for the two comment two times +6 in a very short time, obviously, you did call your friends or you have multiple account, so no. For me every comment is equal and i desactivate the + or the - as you see.
That's why I suppressed your comment, you are free to put them back.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
Just because some more people agree with in a small time regardless they were right or wrong doesn't make you right to delete them. Your accusations are no different than TF's lies. Why the fuck would I want them to +6 or +infinity or have shitty utube accounts, I just said what was right, if large people agree with me doesn't always make me right or not, perhaps you should delete this video and agree with what TF said as many people agree with him. Its just makes me feel
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
cont.....
it just makes me feel that you are afraid of truth, you should have debated them and have a good argument, now that you have deleted them, its very shameful on your part.
For you all fucking comments may be equal, this is utube, when you say something, you are absolutely going to be debated, change this video's settings that only TF can see this.
Why the fuck did you enable ratings then to this video, you stupid peace of shit?
Sorry for wasting my time on highly ego shitted fuck
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28 You have a really childish attitude... so your comment are no more on the top and you begin to cry? Who have the oversized ego? Behave yourself.
Shundra 1 year ago
Excellently well done.
DeathofSpeech 1 year ago
Absurd that S. Korea and Singapore are listed as 'develping'.
forestskog 1 year ago
Do you know what? Irans Improvement you pointed out and Turkey is secularized... Oman also had taken great efforts for better education. But that doesn't disprove in any way, that the religion is detrimental to the scientific knowledge, and i would really be shocked, if anyone seeing thunderf00ts videos would think, that there is only one reason for scientific failure: Islam!
But did thunderf00t really want to say that? I would not think so.
mardastheEitheist 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist Well that's the message that most think... and futhermore you point that "the religion is detrimental to the scientific knowledge", as I learned there is 3 current of thinking now in Islam countries:
(1)Natural science are not bad only western Human science are bad because of their anti religion (2) Science need to be developed not in a western way, but a science friendly Islam way (only for Human science) (3) Western science is too materialist and not enough spiritualist.
Shundra 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist Of course, some science discipline are rejected by part of the Islamic world: evolution, cosmology... But, Muslim currently critic the way science is done in the West... I mean if you look at Iran which has a tremendous scientific knowledge augmentation... the religious power are right behind pushing science: they accepted and pushed, unlike USA, Stem cell research. It's not the whole Islam which is against science... far from it.
Shundra 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist To finish, you should be more concern by the fact that in some Islamic countries, religious are pushing science (with great success) to augment their power. This could of course backfire on them (more knowledge less religion)... But if they tame the science... In conclusion:
I am amazed by Iran Achievement in science in a such short period of time, but I am also scared because the one having and beneficing from this science advancement are ultimately the religious power.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
You can't only take Iran here, its shia islam also being at least liberalized, but Iran is the only way here. And also Iran is using science only, when it needs it.
At least the rise in Iran's publications can be explained it being much higher before 1978 and then only going back to the previous statistic value.
At least:
Religion is still detrimental to science, although its influence can be diminished and it has been the case in Iran, although many don't know that.
mardastheEitheist 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist Can you show me your source? Can you prove that your last sentence is generalizable to every time and every place with proper statistic (eg econometric model)?
Furthermore, i would like to see the data of "much higher before 1978 and then only going back to the previous statistic value", That's not what i have saw... I would really enjoy having your source.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
That is only, what i would expect, because the video also alluded that. 1978 there was the revolution and chaos, after that the war, so in that time science may not be the first to do... I don't know that, but i would expect that, because the data begins with 1980 till 1994, directly after the revolution and the war, where science may not have been so important.
But i would say, that Iran is not a typical example of the islamic state of today. It is industrialized and solid.
mardastheEitheist 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist expectation is just the begining, then you have to prove your point with data. And that's one of my reproach with Tf: He just give data and present than has proof, but in reality, this data prove nothing this is not reason it's perception.
Iran is not a typical example... what do you define as typical? Are you stereotyping islamic state? Each country is specific, once again you musn't oversimplified the problem of everyone by making an oversimplification of reality.
Shundra 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist I should also give you my vision : "Religion is still detrimental to SOME scientific fields (eg Evolution, Cosmologies...) not all scientific field..." And it depend the type of religion: Amish, Taliban =/= Moderate Islam or Moderate Christian, as i told you the view of science is view differently by many people: " To understand better god" or "something coming from the devil" would be the two extreme in religion mentality. Do not, like Thunder, oversimplified the problem.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
Yeah, but with that i didn't want to say, that scientific actions are denied because of religious problems, i meant more the pressure of "keeping rooted in islam" and so on, which is still there in my school here in Germany. I think, that even becoming theologian is detrimental to science, he doesn't produce anything.
And i even don't know, if tf had really meant that... But he is only no politician, historian or sociologist ;), he is a scientist, so he is really not in the right track.
mardastheEitheist 1 year ago
@mardastheEitheist unfortunately Iran's determined to create nuclear weapons and considering their stance on Islam - we are screwed. (similar to N. Korea)
OfOneAudience 1 year ago
One factor that most discussions on topics where the number of published papers is considered relevant is that those discussions themselves gave rise to the modern trend of "publish or perish", inflating the number of papers released and diminishing the actual contribution per paper. Any such analysis should work with relative numbers of papers, not absolute ones.
garouHH 1 year ago
@garouHH This is true. I am currently looking for those data on the developing world which are hard to find...
However, even if the number of papers the most cited are still low, we can't denies that there is actually a growth of publications in those countries and also a growth of co author or partnership (mainly with European countries) in the writing of those article... I doubt that this growth and this interest of europe is all related to "publish or perish" phenomenon... I need data...
Shundra 1 year ago
Nicely researched, and Kudos for your first video.
Neneprobeta 1 year ago
I think you miss the obvious point that the muslims countries are likely in the "developing world" just because islam has held them back. They would be far better off without islam suffucating free thought and critical inquiry.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms If it was true you would be a genius and could partially have answered a dilemma that have puzzled economist for decades. But in fact, that would bring an other question: why countries in Christian Africa and Latin America or Buddhist Asia that aren't under the influence of Islam are in the same position with scientific publications?
Surely Islam can be a factor (Weber proved is point with the "Prostestant Work Ethic") but it 's surely not the only one or the most important.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
There are of course other reasons why societies have not prioritized education or why education has not been available but in the case of islam it becomes clear if you read the islamic texts that this mentality comes directly from their prophet Muhammad. A deathpenalty for questioning the Quran can do a lot to stifle critical inquiry and curiousity.
Abu Dawud 40:4590
The Apostle of Allah said: Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms Islam interpretation are different... furthermore what you are mentioning here is not the Quran but an hadith (roughly Islam juriprudence) used only by sunni muslim... Not by the shia. So now an other question why shia and sunni that have different hadith and interpretation of Islam are more or less at the same level of development?
By the way, you should stop assuming that every muslim country are like Saudi Arabia or Somalia: Using backward sharia law... it is not the case.
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
Sunnis are 80% of muslims. Shia Iran is a bit more developed in parts but they still have the same prophet with the same mentality overall and they all use the same Quran:
Quran 5:101-102
O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@Shundra
Bukhari 24:555
The Prophet said, "Allah has hated for you three things:
1. Vain talks.
2. Wasting of wealth
3. And asking too many questions or asking others for something."
Quran 4:115
And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms Let's make it clear: You are oversimplifying the situation. A great deal of the muslim world don't look in the quran for every answer. Islam may be a factor but it's NOT the only one neither the most important. You are making the simple assumption developing country= Islam...Until you find me a proper scientific paper saying that Islam is the only and determinant factor that put muslim countries into developing state. You will just waste time showing that the quran is backward
Shundra 1 year ago
@Shundra
No I didn't make that assumption if you read what I said but I understand that you find it easier to critique me if you assume the worst. I said there are other reasons but when it comes to islamic countries islam is the number one stifler of progress. This goes back to the behavior and mentality of Muhammad that muslim emulate. The radicals are usually in power and control education they don't have much interest in education other then the Quran.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms I am sorry your assumption was the other way around Islam= Developing Country... but it can be the other way around and even partly circular: Developing country= Islam.
And again you are stereotyping the whole muslim world when you say: "The radicals are usually in power and control education they don't have much interest in education other then the Quran."... Let's take the example of Jordan where the rulers have an emphasis on education > queen Rania.
Shundra 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
1. Science is not a vain talks.
2. Science is not waste of wealth, its a knowledge to save wealth, lives and to survive..
3. Quran Chapter 4: Women, Verse 115
"As for him who opposes the messenger, after the guidance has been pointed out to him, and follows other than the believers' way, we will direct him in the direction he has chosen, and commit him to Hell; what a miserable destiny!"
Go and check yourself
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
You left out the important part about "not asking questions"
The Quran verse you quoted says the same as mine...
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
You misquoted bullshitt, and even its in Quran, you have quoted it out of context.
You didn't said what questions not to ask about and to whom.
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
[Al-Qur'an 60:8]
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
I did not misquote, my verse says the same as yours but from a different translator (Mohsin Khan)
What you quoted there (60:8) has nothing to do with scientific progress. You just seem to be set on showing that islam is not a "bad" religion. Stick to the subject.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
And the British took over most of the Muslim world and colonized it and ruled for over 200 years just because of Islam as well, right? And Islam is also to be blamed because they destroyed the natural growth of Muslim societies, stole their natural resources and left them impoverished. Don't just shout science all day long, try to think scientifically.
saqib09 1 year ago
@saqib09
You must be a muslim, always blaming somebody else... (or a leftist)
Islam does not promote "growth", it promotes backwardsness.
The countries that islam has conqured and enslaved has become stagnant because of their silly laws.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
DO you know that in HDI Report 2009, there are Muslim countries which are already developed like
UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Brunei, Saudi Arabia etc etc
Your statements are wrong in itself.
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
The are more modern mostly because of oil money and import, not because of education has spawned development and research among the population. Certainly not because of islam.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
Sugar from sugarcane, coffee, gas mask, comb, hurricane lamp, spinning wheel, guitar, graph paper, cough syrup, confectionary(as sugar prod was high), dressing and bandage, pin hole camera, fireproof paper, glow-in-the-dark ink, carpet, early rocket artillery, Abus gun(early form of bazooka) etc etc are some inventions by Muslims in medieval time. Read some history and do some research rather than blasting out.
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
Give me a break, we are talking about general trends here. I'm not sying that no inventions at all have come from muslim countries. They never manage to enslave everybodie's minds completely. Some curious souls still manages to produce things despite the whip of Allah.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
"Some curious souls still manages to produce things despite the whip of Allah."
What do you say about Avicenni and Averroes then? They were proud to be Muslim and followed Quran verse by verse
Please don't just criticize past 1400 years and present 1.57 bn peoples faith just by simply reading from other hate websites, take some time, do your own research, read history and esp. Quran, from start till end with an open mind.
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
I have read the Quran thank you and it is the most horrible book I have read. The fact that it is made up makes it even more sinister. I have also studied islamic theology and Muhammad is one of the worst rolemodels one could think of. If you don't agree you have either not read the texts or have a very low moral standard by my standards.
I don't think "faith" is a virtue so I criticize what I want no matter how many people are following any perticular cult.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
Your comments reflect the manner in which you have studied Quran and how much scientific you are, I see your comments being supported by true statistics, reports, data, LMAO, lol, liars like you exist in the world, no matter what, your common sense is clouded by fear and hate towards Islam. I am off with you, you are not ready to see the facts, I can argue with a person who is ready to gain knowledge by means of good dialogue and not by hatred. You are totally false, ;-(
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
How about this fact: 61% of the quran deals with condemning disbelievers in diffrent ways. I would say that is an unhealthy obsession with disbelievers.
Or how about this: 68% of british muslims think that anybody who "insults islam" should be arrested and prosecuted according to a survey. That warrants some serious critique in my view.
If you see any hate in my comments it is because I am forwarding what is in the islamic texts.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@CreativeFreedoms
The term role model generally means any "person who serves as an example, whose behaviour is emulated by others"
If Muhammed is the worst role model, then why are there more than 1 billion people emulate his behaviour, are you the more intelligent than 1.57 bn humans??
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
Get real, most of them don't know much about Muhammad. Most have not even read the Quran and certainly not other relevant islamic texts. They get their information filtered through the imams.
CreativeFreedoms 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28 Argumentum ad populum fallacy. This kind of argument is pathetic. When, before Galileo, the whole population on earth believed that the son revolve around earth were they right? No.It's NOT because the majority believe in something that it make this something true.
Now if you and Creative could stop your sterile debat on the quran...
Shundra 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_inventions
See timeline from 6th century to 16th century
Muslim Inventions in Medieval Times:
wiki/Inventions_in_medieval_Islam
johnnystorm28 1 year ago
@johnnystorm28
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Iran is an pure Islamic regime and it scientific growth in this decade in 11 times greater than the average scientific growth of whole world.
6th century to 15th century was a pure Islamic Caliphate Regime, in which such incredible inventions took place, so, don't say something if you don't know anything which is true.
johnnystorm28 1 year ago