And what people do not understand is that Jamaican men and women had many children with Puerto ricans. Also of Cubans live in Jamaica and there is a large community of Jamaicans in Panama.
Hip Hop is very much influenced from the Jamaican culture. If you went to Kingston way back because of the strong class issues. The sound systems in Jamaica with the DJs started way back in the 1950s. It is all poor people music because the poor people were told not to mingle with the upperclass so they did their own stuff.
There's certainly no denying that Jamaicans invented Reggae music and all the off beats of reggae- there's no denying that. Rap obviously is heavily influenced by Jamaican Toasters(Djing) that's why there is no surprise that alot of the early rappers hailed from NY and were either jamaican or parents came from JA. Like someone posted earliar no one can really put a finge on when it started but we at least know the era.
Rap and Hip Hop are two different things.... Hip Hop got four elements DJ (Play), Graffiti (Write), MCEEM (Rap), BBoying (dance) ...... Hip HOp was created by Spanish and Blacks in the late 70's in New York City NOT Jamaica i know there's plenty influences in Hip Hop like Martial Arts in (breakdancing) but we never mention Asian people in Hip Hop do we? my 75 cents :)
Right, but the Jamaicans popularized the current state of DJ culture, plus the forefathers of hip-hop, such as Herc, largely cite Jamaican influence (Herc IS jamaican). I do mostly agree with you though. Puerto Rican input can arguably be just as attributed to the birth of hip hop as "black culture". It's all very complicated; Hell, electonic bands such as Kraftwerk even deserve a nod for all the exotic sounds "sampled", and, like you suggest (jokingly), Asian culture as well.
I'm taking 74 cents change away cause Reggae has had a big influence in Hip Hop and vise versa. Many Djs and Hip Hop of Jamaican origin show this on their work IE Funk Master Flex, Busta Rhymes with in many others. Examples of reggae being influence by hip hop on the other hand can be noted on many songs recorded in the 90s.
Wu Tang has many times mentioned Asian culture as a big part of their music & so has many top members of Rock Steady C.(Kung fu films70s&Culture)
Exactly, hip hop came out of dancehall. There have been rappers in Jamaica since the earliest days of the soundsystems. Even before U Roy there were guys like Count Machouki who operated Coxsone's #1 set, that were toasting over American boogie woogie/r&b/jazz in the mid 50s. So even before Ska was invented there were already rappers in Jamaica. Dancehall soundsystem culture is older than reggae, rocksteady or ska. Hip Hop/rap is nothing more than American Dancehall music.
there can be little debate that Jamaican artists "invented" ska, but even then, ska pays homage to american R&B and carribean influences. But invent rap? soundsystem toasting was admittitly popularized in Jamaica, but toasting has a history that goes so far back that no one can accurately say where it was invented. You could even argue that American scat was was a huge influence on Jamaican toasting. History is a complicated thing.
Yes I agree, the history of music is complex. But I stand by my opinion that Jamaicans were the first rappers in the modern context. The prime def. of a rapper is a person who chants, rhymes or scats over a prerecorded track. Now, were there guys like that in the swing Jazz days who rapped over records? If you want to broaden your definition of rapping to scat singers like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald of course you have a point. But I would argue that stylistically Jamaicans were first.
its not that complicated. cool herc operated the the first sound system in new york. he observed the sound sytems in JA as a youth. many people "rapped/toasted" over records live. U-roy was the first to make a record of this "new " phenomena . no one can claim to be the first "toaster" but no one can deny that u-roy was the first to make a record of it. and it wasn't on studio one. TREASURE ISLE beyatch. a cop financed the first rap record hahahahah
@ogodefacto Well if you want to take it WAAAY back then it would certainly go back to Afrika/slavery days itself. They'd have vicious drum circles or if they didn't have the drums they would make a beat by clapping and humming and rap over the drums or clapping. So I guess one could say that it dates way back to those days. And it just evolved over time as does everything. Crazy innit??
reggae did come before hiphop some of the first toasters where king stit, u-roy, big youth. dj kool Herk learned how to chat & string up the equipment to the light pole in the streets while he was in jamaica he came back to the bronx and set the foundation for hiphop in the 70's.. look him up if you disagree!
bollox, wot u all on about? jus coz nobs like ronson and allen nik good tunes dunt mean shit. why make a worse version of old gold? people still jus samplin an remixin like creativity has left the planet. mek sumfin new.
For the record, I have been one of Lily Allen's hardest critic, hence these vids I've uploaded. BUT, I am also the first to admit, disclose even, that Reggae was born out of thievery, as I am sure you know. DJ's tore labels off records and claimed the tunes as their own, what we like to warmly think of riddims are really just stolen tunes, producers paid artists next to nothing, if anything, and their musicians were often linked to crime.
r & b is rythm and blues ha. blues mite have come before reggae but definately not rythm and blues , see the diffence my yout. uv clearly jumped into a hot steamin bath n scolded your stupid skin. this is not a competition of the brainiest just a fact of life that ur in the wrong. god bless you. shame tho really
Ska combined elements of Caribbean mento and calypso with American jazz and rhythm and blues. It is characterized by a walking bass line, accented guitar, piano, and/or saxophone rhythms on the offbeat.
r&b is a marketing term. We can determine when the term was coined (1940's), but we can not determine when the music that it refers to was invented, although it was certainly before the term was coined. Anyway, yours is an argument of semantics: are you denying that American blues/r&b/whatever you want to call it influenced Jamaican music infinitely more than the other way around? The Jamaican record industry started as little more than a cover operation.
na nt denying that cus of course all music influences the next. the only originality that can be made is the difference of the way music is structured or made digestible. its jus one step too much when u get 'ignant' guys that depreciate its values. u see what im sayin
mark ronson is a reggae master, the world may have not heard it but n e one into vintage ragga and studio one know dis ere riddim, so pretty much n e one who likes music, i think ronsosn sucess stems form his selection of mint riddims to sample
agreed, as a selektah then in that case, i will say ronson has done an excellent job of re-introducing these riddims into the mainstream, whether it was allen or ronson who is responsible for whatever, great tracks always resurface and rotate, mega ups for posting, thanks bred, myself bein a vintage dancehall ragga mashop artist, will admit, i dig in the crates and 99cent bins for old dusty's i can re introduce and gets props for remixing,but i do give credit to de awriginawl raggamoffins, BIM!
the way i look at it is kids may discover studio one from stuff sampled by the big stars and that can only be good for the living artists,producers etc.etc,they get the recognition they deserve.Fair play,whatever you think of UB40 lord crator got a house out of the royalties of kingston town,a song he probably got a coup[le of quid for off clancy eccles originaly,just a one off payment is all they got,and their tune played on the radio!!
That's very nice! You don't need to place emphasis on the fact that he is "white". don't take away from the fact that reggae music is Jamaican music and the majority of Jamaicans are black. Hence, reggae music is credited as black music.
+ UB40 is a very multicultural group!
Plus, no one gives a fuck about Judge Dread right now...this is about Jackie Mitto (Jamaicas most successful and most prominent pianist) and Lily Allen, who sampled his music.
I agree. Race and culture are intertwined; Reggae is the result of the creativity of black Jamaicans. Now, things get a little foggy when you consider that reggae is rather similar in many respects to, say, the music of cubans (not exactly black), but reggae IS distinct, and black Jamaicans made it. It was rather absurd for anyone to counter by citing Judge Dread and UB40.
"inane histrionics"? Nice way to start. I fail to see how my statements are either "inane" or "histrionics". Perhaps a dictionary is on order for you rather than a thesarus. To reply, its a matter of degrees. Lily makes millions of $ and has millions praising her, McCook doesnt. Hardly anyone knows who McCook is. Besides, EVERY release on her album is a rip-off whereas McCook has a vast library of original tunes.
Now lets look at the history. "Ring of fire" was written by June Carter (Cash's wife and recording artist herself) and Merle Kilgore and released many months before Cash by June's sister Anita Carter.
watch?v=7yd0Uc7bI7w
Cash did not write "Ring Of Fire". It WAS his idea to turn the main guitar into line into a Mariachi horn section but he sure as hell didnt invent the Mariachi horn sound, he effectively copied it. Anyway, I'm a big Cash fan, so I am not about to belittle him.
Now lets talk about "A Happy Dub". That track is a Tubby joint. McCook was more than anything a session player who often played on tracks to pay his rent. Besides, if you knew anything about the history of dub you would know that that was the whole point of dub: reworking well known tracks as instrumentals so innovators like Tubby toil in the studio on the production (eq,delay, verb,arrangement,etc). Dub = remix. Get it?
Now it is no coincedence that Dub producers love bottom end: they effectively removed vocals and other high end by eqing them out, then they could replace that content with whatever they wanted. Soon dub became increasingly synonymous with simply "bass heavy", but that aint what dub really is, simply an artifact of the process. Were ALL dub tracks eq'd version of the originals? Often they reproduced the tracks in the studio, but make no mistake, dub = instrumental (usually) remix.
On a personal note, why START your question with insults to me? Clearly I know a thing or two, so "inane" is a stretch. By "histrionics" you either (mistakenly) mean "history lesson" or you mean it literally as in I am an attention whore (which I certainly am not), again insulting me. I put up a video with little in the way of explanation and comment back to people who comment to me. This isnt about me at all, its about some of my favorite artists who deserve exposure.
"Besides, if you knew anything about the history of dub you would know that that was the whole point of dub: reworking well known tracks as instrumentals so innovators like Tubby toil in the studio on the production (eq,delay, verb,arrangement,etc). Dub = remix."
Isn't this exactly what Lily Allen and her producers are doing, in a sense carrying on the dub tradition? Stop being so obtuse and antagonistic towards new music.
"dub" implies a "tribute" to another recording, so it need not be even mentioned that a dub is prob. based on another song, or riddim: we KNOW that. Think about it. Lily, on the other hand, enjoys the ignorance of her audience, like Sean Paul does. Anyway, you are suggesting Lily Allen produced Alright Still? Is that seriously your line here? If you read my posts I have mentioned numerous times that I give more credit to Future Cut than Lily Allen.
I realize reading is tough for a guy who think "antagonistic" is the kind of word you can access only through a thesaurus, but "Lily Allen and her producers" implies that there's Lily, and then there's the people who produced the album. Please try and keep up.
Actually, I was referring to your use of the words "histrionics" and "obtuse"; hardly the vocabulary of a 22 year old, or anyone of any age for that matter.
"Lily Allen and her producers" implies a joint venture, hence the use of the work "AND". "And" is a simple operator that means not one, or the other, but BOTH. So, when you say Lily "Allen AND her producers" are carrying on the dub tradition ala Tubby, you are implicitly stating that Lily Allen had a part in the production.
Anyway, I fail to see where you are going with this. I have a point: EVERY single from Alright Steal is anchored on a sample, so give some credit to the originators. Simple. Do you really have an issue with that? You started all this with what you thought was a smoking gun but I refuted: "A Happy Dub" IS a rip-off and that's WHY its called a "dub". If you knew any history you would realize how ridiculous your point was. Besides, McCook sessioned on that recording, but its a Tubby dub.
First, "histrionic" and "obtuse" aren't particularly big words. Sorry if you think otherwise.
Any way, you're missing the point:
Lily is ripping off McCook, Longhair, etc. the same way McCook/Tubby ripped off Cash. Musically they're doing something very similar. It's disingenuous to praise one and criticize the other.
If you're upset about credit, you're off base there as well. Mittoo is listed as a co-writer on Smile, Earl King as a co-writer on Knock Em' Out, and so on.
Also, this kind of exposure does nothing but good for the music. I was passingly familiar with some dub before I'd heard of Lily Allen, but actively sought out the original music from the samples after hearing "Alright, Still" (the CD booklet proved very instructive). Instead of getting mad at Allen, you should be happy that she is both keeping the dub tradition alive and introducing a new generation (like me) to the classic sounds of decades past.
Again, that is a Tubby track on which Tubby pioneered the art of studio production techniques that the technology of the day simply did not even suggest was possible. To lift a 4 bar run and simply hit repeat is something a 10 year old can do these days. Its call perspective. And again, Lily had nothing to do with the production and i HAVE explicitly praised Future Cut's production work here.
And again, a "dub", in its very title, says "good chance we didnt write this" and everyone who know anything about reggae KNOWS about riddims, so the onus simply is not on those artists to mention it: it is a given. Lily's audience knows next to nothing about this and she NEVER mentions it next to the legalities of citing in the liner notes which most people dont examine and are certainly not included with iTunes downloads. You are saying nothing new; read the posts.
And im not "mad" at Lily Allen. Even though Alright Still is an amazing sounding album Lily Allen gets way more credit than she is worth from the ignorant masses. I dont know Lily Allen and she might be a great person. She might have even had more to do with the album than I suspect, but she does NOT bring any attention to those she sampled, pure and simple. I pay tribute to the originators and provide this content to peple like you who bother to proactively seek it.
In fact, I honestly mean to to this with a whole bunch of sampled/remade/stolen songs from many artists but haven't got around to it. I did Lily because she is particularly prolific with the sampling, because i love dub, and simply timing. Thing is, if I do Sean Paul next will I have the same number of people yelling at me and "defending his honor"? Scary thought.
I am not convinced that this does "good" for the genre. While sampling the Stones breaks the bank, sampling ol' reggae tunes is almost free. Looking at Lily's success, are not more people simply going to take the easy way out? Do I/you want our reggae/dub to be nothing more than sampled cause its cheap and easy for the "artist"? There aint much artistry in that and I dont support it, even if it sounds cool even to me. Sampling used to be inventive, but this is just rewritting an old gem.
Perspective again where "A Happy Dub" is concerned. Harldy anyone knows that song, and when they do the first thing they KNOW is that its "ring of fire". Its an obscure studio track that I dont even think is great. If millions of peolple starting going gaga over it, I would be just as antagonistic towards that tune. Dont get me wrong, I love music, and I even love "smile" despite my objections.
yo man im a sample producer and we use samples as paying tribute to the records we love. if she wouldnt have bought this beat from future cut then themainstream world would have never heard this kind of ryhthm before.
"never heard this kind of ryhthm before"? You mean never heard a reggae rhythm before, or THIS rhythm? People obviously have heard reggae before, so you mean THIS rhythm I suspect.
True, without Smile most people would have never heard the original, but whats the difference if next to no one who hears it knows that there even is an original? That Lily is is so terribly close lipped about all this amounts to her taking credit for it and does nothing for the original artists.
Being that you are a "sample producer", I'm sure that you understand that all said there are 2 kinds of samples:
1) Sampling material that you know there is a damn good chance people will recognize so you KNOW you cant get away with pretending that you made it
2) Sampling obscure material that you KNOW next to no one will be able to recognize knowing that you need not correct them when they lay on the adulation
Now, I cant say that Lily is not a reggae fan, but I can tell you that I have been watching her myspace page (which launched her career) since before her American crossover success and she simply did not mention any love of reggae, short of mentioning the specials (who doesnt cite the specials as a fav band?), and adding the slits (another quasi only reggae band) and Barington levy. With such and exhaustive "influence" list, where's the reggae?
"When I set out to do this I knew I wanted to make songs that sounded a) up to date and now and b) really organic," she says. "Because you can't get really good players without spending loads of money these days, the only other option is to sample.
That doest sound like a tribute to me, it looks like calculated "thievery".
Anyway, like I always say, Alright Still is an awesome album, but lets all give props/respect to the originals, once we know about them.
The only other thing I want to say is that regardless of where the original samples came from, there CAN be true artistry to how you "arrange" the samples. There SHOULD be. Lily Allen's samples are simply 2 or 4 bar loops in most cases. That they are cleaned up, eq'ed, enhanced, etc, to the point where they sound so fresh is Future Cut's work, not Lily's. So, as the vehicle for her songwriting, she did next to nothing to reinvent the original material, she simply sang over top of it.
i dont think she's ever taken credit for writing the actual music, just for writing the lyrics. i think she said once that she was just given tracks and told to write for them, so its possible that she doesnt even know about these originals. her producers,however, should definitely have given some credit.
i think she likes like sort of punky electronica kind of grime kind of like new wave grime kinda maybe more like broken beats like kinda dubby broken beats but a little bit kind of soulful like kind of drum and bassy but kind of more broken drum and bass like broken beat but break beats kind of drum and bass kinda... dyaknow whuimean?
well said, she aint the only one either. Sublime has a talent for copying obscure tunes (especially reggae) rewriting the lyrics (from Gershwin, Toots, the Wailers etc.) and pretending to be geniuses ahead of their time...how lame.
Thanks for posting this clip with the original Soul Vendors' track! It's all too often that the originators don't get the credit which they deserve. But on the other hand I'm not mad at Lily for sampling this song.(Sampling the entire song actually...)It happens almost everyday in Jamaican dancehall. Ripping artists off is almost a tradition in Jamaican music. What does anger me is the fact that Jackie Mittoo probably made about $20 off of this song and she's making millions! That's fucked up.
Agreed wholsale lifting is commonplace is reggae, riddims and all. But Mitto actually IS an originator: ie he MADE the riddims people been taking for ages, including "Full Up", one of the most used ever. Regarding the use of riddims, I always say its different when "jamaicans" use 'em 'cause everyone KNOWS they do it (except Sean Paul fans). Lily on the other hand has been playing on people's ignorance, keeping quiet.
Yes I know he's dead bro! I was just referring to how Jamaican session musicians back then were paid by the song with no royalties. Also, according to Coxsone, (from the "Studio One Story" documentary on Soul Jazz dvd)it was Robbie Lyn who played on Full Up after he took over when Jackie left for Canada. So ironically the originator of Full Up has never been given credit... I've also changed my opinion of Lily after I heard her dis my girl Corinne Bailey Rae. Now I think she's a bitch ass ho.lol
Thx. Too many people dont understand that I am doing this because I truly have so much respect for these originators and I really worry about the vast library of riddims that I fear will be exploited (sampled or copied) by western artists more and more and who, like Lily, will be more than happy letting that audience think that they wrote the tunes.
I GUARANTEE that it's just a matter of time before some western artist re-releases a version of Jackie Mittoo's "Full Up" riddim that was already popularized by the Mighty Diamonds on "Pass The Kuchie" and more famously to western audiences by Musical Youth's "Pass the Dutchie". Maybe Lily Allen will make "Pass the Pringles".
That's the day I would kill myself and burn all my reggae 45s! But seriously though, thanks for bringing up this topic! This kind of controversy is what's going to make more people hip to vintage Jamaican music. At the very least she's exposing people (albeit in an irresponsible manner)to an amazing song that would otherwise only be known to a handful of reggae obsessed collectors around the world.(myself included)But you're right, she doesn't give nearly enough credit to the original artists.
never has credit been given to Jackie Mittoo or Tommy McCook, she comes across as someone who is original, she is like one of those X factor mugs, except she is in a better postion to start with, down to her old man being famous.
She gave credit in her liner notes, yes, she is obligated to do that. But is that enough? Why does she NEVER mention these artists. Why does she never say she sampled them. In all my research (yes i read extensively) I read only 1 comment about the matter and it was not a flattering one. Lily Allen I pick on becuase she is a phony. The songs you sing along to are not hers.
Why don't you post a rap video that samples music like this? Lily isn't doing anything hundreds of others do. She credited it in the linear notes, it isn't a direct sample. She's doing no more than anyone else does.
You guys are just a bunch of picky assholes looking to crucify Lily for anything you can. Get a life.
Please. You're just some idiot trying to pretend to be an intellectual giant. I'm not defending Lily, I'm simply pointing out the fact that she isn't doing anything tons of other artists don't do. You're just a small man with a deep need for attention.
There IS a big difference, willowxxx. I have pointed this out many times already, so read the posts. The difference is that we KNOW rap/hip-hop samples: that is the root of that music. They don't even have to say anything 'cause we know it to be true. Also, hip-hop artists tend to be a little more creative with their sampling, rather than just looping the same 4 bars over and over (ps this IS a direct sample, used clean in her demo (dl it) and simply processed for final release).
It's not just rap.hip-hop that does it. If you are a semi-intelligent listener to music, you know sampling occurs in all types of music. And No, rap doesn't get creative with their samples. They just have some jackass talk over the sample. No difference. Any halfwit could see that. I see rappers getting in trouble for not crediting who they sample. Not Lily.
There ARE too many artists that just loop, and that is sad. Too often I hear it, even from the big boys, but we KNOW they do it; We don't even have to ask. But, at least they are often the producer as well, so THEY are the ones doing all the actual sampling, eqing, compressing, overdubs, etc. Does Jay Z sample? Sure, but he is also a very talented producer. Lily Allen is not.
Actully, people are talking about Jackie Mittoo becuase of this post, not becuase of Lily Allen. I am the one making this cause, NOT Lily Allen. You and far too many others know NOTHING about this until you stumbled upon it here. So thx.
Uhh, wrong. I clicked on this video because of Lily Allen, not you. So Lily Allen IS the reason. Nice try though. But you seem to be a complete fuckwit, so I'll humor your need for attention
omg you are boring me now. Obviously you were looking for Lily Allen but you clicked on this post because I made it and I brought you this content. So, you heard this song from me, not Lily Allen. Get it?
Wrong again, moron. Had Lily's name NOT been in the title of this video, I wouldn't have clicked on it. So, you posted a video on YouTube. Lily was the reason I watched.
"And sampling occurs in all types of music, not just rap"
huh? I dont follow. Extensive sampling like this in Jazz or Rock? uh-uh
Pop? sure, but usually only by youth-oriented quasi rap. Certinaly not adult contempory pop, just pop that is marketed to the same people who like rap generally.
Holy fuck, sweetheart. EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET KNEW THAT SONG AND KNEW IT WAS A SAMPLE. ps, the verve was sued and lost EVERYTHING. They made NO money on that album. Seriously do not play music jeapordy with me.
You asked for a rock band who sampled. No one is playing music Jeopardy (The show was ACTUALLY called Rock N Roll Jeopardy). You just want to pretend you're a musical elitist by spouting off a couple names. Why don't you go down to starbucks and see how many people you can impress
Actually, I didnt "ask for a name" at all. That you can cite a few examples is not at all revelant; I am making generalizations that ring true regardless of a few examples that refute that generalization. Sampling in rock is virtually non-existant.
The other thing is that, YES this IS a race issue: race and culture are intrinsically linked. Quick, how many white reggae artists can you name? None? Maybe quasi reggae like the specials or the police? They wrote their own songs. So the only white reggae artist you can name is some young white chick who just sampled all the tunes? That is sad. So while you think this is not a race issue, as a caucasian person, I am very embarrased by this.
And you are truly naive. If race is not an issue, name some white rappers that have cred. You cant, period. That is not my fault, that is a fact. I dont make the rules, I just observe them. Beastie Boys? Everlast? Eminem? List is running short.
You claimed that race is not an issue. I claim that it is and present my evidence. Lily Allen IS effectively a white rapper stealing from black reggae artists.
Hey, if it were Micheal Jackson's music, most people would make an instant association because his name and music is so out there. Nothing wrong with that. You should not be exempted from giving credit just because the musician is less known to you or your target audience even if you have talent and appeal. It's irresponsible. If this argument does not resonate with you then so be it. You have no conscience.
Exactly. If Lily sampled Michael Jackson, giving credit would be a moot point really. But Lily Allen has intentionally sampled obscure artists and then done literally nothing to give them credit short of her legal obligation to give credit in the liner notes. If Lily Allen didnt hide this fact I, and others, wouldnt have to point it out. I dont care that she sampled, I care that she doesnt give credit, effectively taking it for herself.
You Have alot to defend for yourself and others.why bother lilyallen has fans already its not like your gonna change people prespective on her,You seem like all you do is bash lily 24/7 so just chill!! sure she not giving credit or shouting out i just used Jackie Mittoos! beat for my new song No One does that,listen to smile and this big diffrence Huh! she didnt copy anything there all beats no lyrics she wrote her own lyrics not her music but she did enhance it and made it her own,
Most people who post are really quite taken aback by the amount of sampling on "lily's album", even you, I suggest. Tell the truth, before my posts, or someone else told you, you though these were original songs. But, practically every song is just a sample. Wrote her own lyrics? Possibly, but is that really an achievement? Could You have not written those lyrics? I say you could have, as I could have, as my local Subway sandwich artist could have.
At least there songs are hits i love lily allen shes orginal her styl and everything shes using the beat! fact i guess but at least shes writing her OWN songs! everyone now uses beats from diffrent times its nothing new so get over it ,
well since it offends you so deeply and personally, i suggest you make two more videos- one citing Cat Stevens (Littlest Things)and another for Big Chief (Friday Night).
Right, I just lost momentum: Busy at work and all. Becuase I have only managed to make 3 vids I have, in the process, slighted other artists worth a nod. I am particularily wary of the LDN and Smile samples because they are her lead off singles and BOTH "reggae". All the others are worth mentioning and I WILL get around to them simply because, as you suggest, if I mention a few I should mention them all.
"strangely enough most artists sample music. crazy huh."
Most? Not true. Maybe most hip hop, but even there not so much any more. Anyway, we KNOW that they sample.
SO do most non hip-hop "artists" sample for their entire album, with the samples doing nothing more than laying the foundation of the song looped over and over?
A few people mentioned on this discussion as well as on the 'LDN' one in which a supersonics backbeat was used that its common knowledge her backing tracks are sampled.
Im a massive fan of Jackie Mittoo, Coxone and Tommy McCook and I honestly wasn't aware of her heavy sampling, which is very worrying. Although historically its happened a lot in reggae music Im suprised in this instance and Ive definately lost some respect for her songwriting.
shes a robber created by the music thives of the u.k needs songs written and stolen to order dont no if i could stomach her or the other druged out soul singer whatsa features with the tatooes
This is an uphill battle for me. I know that most people who happen upon my Lily ALlen "tribute" videos are Lily Allen fans and will likely be hostile to my position. Understand that my sole aim is not to discredit Lily Allen but to turn you all on to the music that Lily Allen was (cough) "inspired" by.
That's great, but I think you waste a lot of energy putting Lily Allen down that could be spent turning people on to reggae music. Hint: people don't like to be turned on to music by pricks.
Wow, lots of name calling on your end. Are you Lily Allen's mom, kin or best friend? Wouldn't it be great if, contrary to what you suggest, people were to like music for being good rather than for who referred them to it? Just a thought; mull it over. Am I a prick/mysogynst/whatever else you called me? For calling out Lily Allen? OK, sure.
But you said your objective was to turn people on to music.
I have actually never listened to her before at all, but your hearty disapproval of her on the grounds of her race and gender comes off so petty and self-aggrandizing that it makes me wish I were a fan.
What I HAVE managed to do is make you recognize that the album Lily Allen fronts is an exercise in sampling: you didt know this before you happened upon my posting(s). I do not believe that her credibility has not been dimished in your eyes as a result. If you suggest that you deem her MORE credible for this practice or you think that it is a non-issue then I seriously question your sincerity.
To allege my "hearty disapproval of her on the grounds of her race and gender" is my reason for criticizing Lily Allen means that you have not recognized the scope of my contention, nor, again, have you addressed my explicitly stated reasons for this concern. There ARE musical barriers, racial barriers, gender barriers and social barriers. IF you "cross them" you should have respect for what is on the other side and you should expect a degree of skeptisicm. Lily Allen is simply vacationing.
Nope. Not everyone knows this. Not by a long shot. Again, she next to never mentions it, and when she does she doesn't detail the extent of the sampling or name/credit her sources. It is this lack of consideration that DOES demonstrate her lack of respect.
Lily Allen, however, is not a reggae artisit. She is some young white chick who I assure you knows nothing about the history of reggae music outside of Bob Marley. For some reason though (sheer ignorance?), people seem to think that Lily wrote her own songs, where in fact "she" simply annexed another culture's music.
Agreed that reggae is steeped in a tradition of "sampling". SO steeped, in fact, that everyone who knows anything about reaggae music knows this intuitively. As such, any regggae artist of old or new is taken in context and is KNOWN to have sampled/copied/stolen/etc and artisits pay tribute to their forfathers/peers simply in the act of their production. THEY are almost always effectively playing "standards" and everyone knows this, so everyone SHOULD give credit to Lily's "influences" too.
Also, most of the reggae artists you mention did not write their own songs. There was a strong songwriting industry in Jamaica in the 60s-70s (like everywhere else) that existed outside of performance.
To dismiss her using race and gender is highly offensive (not to mention stupid).
YOu dont read before you comment. I acknowledged that most reggae artists didnt write their won songs, and even when they did they were effectively reworking another song anyway. This is also true of the "songwriters", where "singwriter" often meant the producer who owned the facilities who demanded high percentages and undo credit.
As I acknowledged, the Jamaican music industry was riddled with scandal, copying, stealing and injustice to the "artists". BUT, like I said, this was KNOWN to be true. "Musical gangsters" is was they were, so every credit was eyed suspiciously.
"To dismiss her using race and gender is highly offensive (not to mention stupid)."
You and I disagree. She is an ignorant little white girl being HANDED a bunch of songs that are rooted in another culture that I dont believe that she has any knowledge of or appreciation for. If this were rap/hiphop she would be ridiculed beyond belief. Because it is reggae, a subject people know little about which is ironice becuase in many ways it was the forfather of rap/hiphop, we dont even notice.
So am I racist? I AM WHITE. BUT, I know my history and LOVE reggae/dub music. IF I sampled one of these masters I would be telling EVERYONE who listen about these classics. I would say OMG if you don;t listen to tubby or perry or uroy or iroy or pablo or scientist or Hudson etc etc then you are missing out. Why doesn't Lily ever do this if she so wants to be a nuovo reggae artist? THAT is why I am suspicious and why I discredit her.
So, when Lily Allen says, regarding "writing" smile, "We just went through about seven or eight sample lyrics, found a beat, put it all in", I say, Lily Allen, you are an idiot who doesnt give credit to your sample sources or to your producers who, as evidenced by their body of work, are the ones who made Lily Allen's album what it is.
I hate women because I think what Lily Allen has done is disgraceful and have clearly laid out a solid argument in line with that position?
How irresponsible for you to toss that word around; You have served only to truly discredit women who justifiably claim to be the victims of misogyny. Chose your words a little more carefully and you will be taken more seriously, Peter.
Ummmmm, quick, name me 10 female reggae artists. OK, name me 5. No? Name me one. No? Huh? Sorry, but it IS a sexist genre and I didnt make it that way. BUT if any women is going to rise above this barrier it sure as hell shouldnt be Lily Allen. Get real.
Jackie Mittoo = Genius
dominicja1 1 year ago
hope she paid for it dutty gyal
Vehement78 1 year ago
was it actually sampled or did they redo it?
leakeg 1 year ago
And what people do not understand is that Jamaican men and women had many children with Puerto ricans. Also of Cubans live in Jamaica and there is a large community of Jamaicans in Panama.
1980sEntertainment 2 years ago
Hip Hop is very much influenced from the Jamaican culture. If you went to Kingston way back because of the strong class issues. The sound systems in Jamaica with the DJs started way back in the 1950s. It is all poor people music because the poor people were told not to mingle with the upperclass so they did their own stuff.
1980sEntertainment 2 years ago
It's actually Jamaican Toasting that poured into American Culture and kickstarted rap.
Barrington Levy was one of those artists that was there in the beginning of Hip-Hop, and continues to contribute from time to time.
1UpGamers 2 years ago
yeah - they obviously used the chords as a basis for the smile song.
mikethemike232 2 years ago
Good job.
telecaster1963 2 years ago
Nice!
FireWireFlareon 2 years ago 2
There's certainly no denying that Jamaicans invented Reggae music and all the off beats of reggae- there's no denying that. Rap obviously is heavily influenced by Jamaican Toasters(Djing) that's why there is no surprise that alot of the early rappers hailed from NY and were either jamaican or parents came from JA. Like someone posted earliar no one can really put a finge on when it started but we at least know the era.
abrown7839 2 years ago
Rap and Hip Hop are two different things.... Hip Hop got four elements DJ (Play), Graffiti (Write), MCEEM (Rap), BBoying (dance) ...... Hip HOp was created by Spanish and Blacks in the late 70's in New York City NOT Jamaica i know there's plenty influences in Hip Hop like Martial Arts in (breakdancing) but we never mention Asian people in Hip Hop do we? my 75 cents :)
checkabreak 3 years ago
Right, but the Jamaicans popularized the current state of DJ culture, plus the forefathers of hip-hop, such as Herc, largely cite Jamaican influence (Herc IS jamaican). I do mostly agree with you though. Puerto Rican input can arguably be just as attributed to the birth of hip hop as "black culture". It's all very complicated; Hell, electonic bands such as Kraftwerk even deserve a nod for all the exotic sounds "sampled", and, like you suggest (jokingly), Asian culture as well.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
I'm taking 74 cents change away cause Reggae has had a big influence in Hip Hop and vise versa. Many Djs and Hip Hop of Jamaican origin show this on their work IE Funk Master Flex, Busta Rhymes with in many others. Examples of reggae being influence by hip hop on the other hand can be noted on many songs recorded in the 90s.
Wu Tang has many times mentioned Asian culture as a big part of their music & so has many top members of Rock Steady C.(Kung fu films70s&Culture)
moralesef 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Bitch has no talent so she has to steal
a classic
SHE SOUNDS LIKE A DOG BARKING
cinderme 3 years ago
I wish this was longer
Sonjay718 3 years ago
thats what she said
TheTruth1789 2 years ago
That's kinda sad, isn't it?
Sonjay718 2 years ago
Exactly, hip hop came out of dancehall. There have been rappers in Jamaica since the earliest days of the soundsystems. Even before U Roy there were guys like Count Machouki who operated Coxsone's #1 set, that were toasting over American boogie woogie/r&b/jazz in the mid 50s. So even before Ska was invented there were already rappers in Jamaica. Dancehall soundsystem culture is older than reggae, rocksteady or ska. Hip Hop/rap is nothing more than American Dancehall music.
aakira009 3 years ago
hmmm...
there can be little debate that Jamaican artists "invented" ska, but even then, ska pays homage to american R&B and carribean influences. But invent rap? soundsystem toasting was admittitly popularized in Jamaica, but toasting has a history that goes so far back that no one can accurately say where it was invented. You could even argue that American scat was was a huge influence on Jamaican toasting. History is a complicated thing.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Yes I agree, the history of music is complex. But I stand by my opinion that Jamaicans were the first rappers in the modern context. The prime def. of a rapper is a person who chants, rhymes or scats over a prerecorded track. Now, were there guys like that in the swing Jazz days who rapped over records? If you want to broaden your definition of rapping to scat singers like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald of course you have a point. But I would argue that stylistically Jamaicans were first.
aakira009 3 years ago
its not that complicated. cool herc operated the the first sound system in new york. he observed the sound sytems in JA as a youth. many people "rapped/toasted" over records live. U-roy was the first to make a record of this "new " phenomena . no one can claim to be the first "toaster" but no one can deny that u-roy was the first to make a record of it. and it wasn't on studio one. TREASURE ISLE beyatch. a cop financed the first rap record hahahahah
ncbloom 2 years ago
@ogodefacto Well if you want to take it WAAAY back then it would certainly go back to Afrika/slavery days itself. They'd have vicious drum circles or if they didn't have the drums they would make a beat by clapping and humming and rap over the drums or clapping. So I guess one could say that it dates way back to those days. And it just evolved over time as does everything. Crazy innit??
BabylonGenocide149 1 year ago
reggae did come before hiphop some of the first toasters where king stit, u-roy, big youth. dj kool Herk learned how to chat & string up the equipment to the light pole in the streets while he was in jamaica he came back to the bronx and set the foundation for hiphop in the 70's.. look him up if you disagree!
dertydre44 3 years ago 2
reggae came before hiphop
qzgoonie 3 years ago 2
RIP Jackie Mittoo - king of the keyboard
noxinsox1 3 years ago 9
Wow such a great instrumental. It needs no words! 10/10
darkdante23 3 years ago 3
Yeah...Relax Baby...I Love Ska...I Love Lily Allen...That's So Realy Cool...
FireWireFlareon 3 years ago 4
yep true, but when credit isnt given to orig artists, neither should props be given 2 the robbing biter (allen).
wotabam 3 years ago
bollox, wot u all on about? jus coz nobs like ronson and allen nik good tunes dunt mean shit. why make a worse version of old gold? people still jus samplin an remixin like creativity has left the planet. mek sumfin new.
wotabam 3 years ago
For the record, I have been one of Lily Allen's hardest critic, hence these vids I've uploaded. BUT, I am also the first to admit, disclose even, that Reggae was born out of thievery, as I am sure you know. DJ's tore labels off records and claimed the tunes as their own, what we like to warmly think of riddims are really just stolen tunes, producers paid artists next to nothing, if anything, and their musicians were often linked to crime.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Even the tone of reggae is an emulation of the cheap transistor radios they listened to American R&B on. And, what about things like this?
?v=cmo_Py8oTeQ
Genuine? Probably.
Anyway, I love classic reggae, I am just being pragmatic.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
very very true, the only reason Reggae exists is because the Jamaicans couldnt emulate American R&B PROPERLY!!! I still love traditional reggae tho!
rudeboyjohn 3 years ago
neva was trying 2 emulate american r&b
wer did u get that from
yakyak 3 years ago
look it up fool
rudeboyjohn 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
american r & b came after reggae ha
case closed u un educated swine
yakyak 3 years ago
oh really, like blues and r&b from the 50's? look up the history of jamaican soundsystems you scumbag
rudeboyjohn 3 years ago
r & b is rythm and blues ha. blues mite have come before reggae but definately not rythm and blues , see the diffence my yout. uv clearly jumped into a hot steamin bath n scolded your stupid skin. this is not a competition of the brainiest just a fact of life that ur in the wrong. god bless you. shame tho really
duppied
yakyak 3 years ago
Ska combined elements of Caribbean mento and calypso with American jazz and rhythm and blues. It is characterized by a walking bass line, accented guitar, piano, and/or saxophone rhythms on the offbeat.
duppied nothing you fuckin' cock sucker
rudeboyjohn 3 years ago
r&b is a marketing term. We can determine when the term was coined (1940's), but we can not determine when the music that it refers to was invented, although it was certainly before the term was coined. Anyway, yours is an argument of semantics: are you denying that American blues/r&b/whatever you want to call it influenced Jamaican music infinitely more than the other way around? The Jamaican record industry started as little more than a cover operation.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
na nt denying that cus of course all music influences the next. the only originality that can be made is the difference of the way music is structured or made digestible. its jus one step too much when u get 'ignant' guys that depreciate its values. u see what im sayin
yakyak 3 years ago
noff sehd, unfortunately, im not brillaint enoff to make mi own choons, but i do love to mashem op tho
timekingman 3 years ago
mark ronson is a reggae master, the world may have not heard it but n e one into vintage ragga and studio one know dis ere riddim, so pretty much n e one who likes music, i think ronsosn sucess stems form his selection of mint riddims to sample
timekingman 3 years ago
ronson didnt have much to with alright still: just "littlest things". Future cut is responsible for this track and LDN and half the album.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
agreed, as a selektah then in that case, i will say ronson has done an excellent job of re-introducing these riddims into the mainstream, whether it was allen or ronson who is responsible for whatever, great tracks always resurface and rotate, mega ups for posting, thanks bred, myself bein a vintage dancehall ragga mashop artist, will admit, i dig in the crates and 99cent bins for old dusty's i can re introduce and gets props for remixing,but i do give credit to de awriginawl raggamoffins, BIM!
timekingman 3 years ago
the way i look at it is kids may discover studio one from stuff sampled by the big stars and that can only be good for the living artists,producers etc.etc,they get the recognition they deserve.Fair play,whatever you think of UB40 lord crator got a house out of the royalties of kingston town,a song he probably got a coup[le of quid for off clancy eccles originaly,just a one off payment is all they got,and their tune played on the radio!!
pinky5446 3 years ago
beautiful
nedeast 3 years ago
That's very nice! You don't need to place emphasis on the fact that he is "white". don't take away from the fact that reggae music is Jamaican music and the majority of Jamaicans are black. Hence, reggae music is credited as black music.
+ UB40 is a very multicultural group!
Plus, no one gives a fuck about Judge Dread right now...this is about Jackie Mitto (Jamaicas most successful and most prominent pianist) and Lily Allen, who sampled his music.
darkangelO1 3 years ago
I agree. Race and culture are intertwined; Reggae is the result of the creativity of black Jamaicans. Now, things get a little foggy when you consider that reggae is rather similar in many respects to, say, the music of cubans (not exactly black), but reggae IS distinct, and black Jamaicans made it. It was rather absurd for anyone to counter by citing Judge Dread and UB40.
alexwestconsulting 3 years ago
I think Judege Dread cut some great tracks and I also like this.
noxinsox1 3 years ago
Tommy McCook "ripped off" Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire" in "A Happy Dub." Where are your inane histrionics over that?
mitchellcervantes 3 years ago
"inane histrionics"? Nice way to start. I fail to see how my statements are either "inane" or "histrionics". Perhaps a dictionary is on order for you rather than a thesarus. To reply, its a matter of degrees. Lily makes millions of $ and has millions praising her, McCook doesnt. Hardly anyone knows who McCook is. Besides, EVERY release on her album is a rip-off whereas McCook has a vast library of original tunes.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Now lets look at the history. "Ring of fire" was written by June Carter (Cash's wife and recording artist herself) and Merle Kilgore and released many months before Cash by June's sister Anita Carter.
watch?v=7yd0Uc7bI7w
Cash did not write "Ring Of Fire". It WAS his idea to turn the main guitar into line into a Mariachi horn section but he sure as hell didnt invent the Mariachi horn sound, he effectively copied it. Anyway, I'm a big Cash fan, so I am not about to belittle him.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Now lets talk about "A Happy Dub". That track is a Tubby joint. McCook was more than anything a session player who often played on tracks to pay his rent. Besides, if you knew anything about the history of dub you would know that that was the whole point of dub: reworking well known tracks as instrumentals so innovators like Tubby toil in the studio on the production (eq,delay, verb,arrangement,etc). Dub = remix. Get it?
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Now it is no coincedence that Dub producers love bottom end: they effectively removed vocals and other high end by eqing them out, then they could replace that content with whatever they wanted. Soon dub became increasingly synonymous with simply "bass heavy", but that aint what dub really is, simply an artifact of the process. Were ALL dub tracks eq'd version of the originals? Often they reproduced the tracks in the studio, but make no mistake, dub = instrumental (usually) remix.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
On a personal note, why START your question with insults to me? Clearly I know a thing or two, so "inane" is a stretch. By "histrionics" you either (mistakenly) mean "history lesson" or you mean it literally as in I am an attention whore (which I certainly am not), again insulting me. I put up a video with little in the way of explanation and comment back to people who comment to me. This isnt about me at all, its about some of my favorite artists who deserve exposure.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
"Besides, if you knew anything about the history of dub you would know that that was the whole point of dub: reworking well known tracks as instrumentals so innovators like Tubby toil in the studio on the production (eq,delay, verb,arrangement,etc). Dub = remix."
Isn't this exactly what Lily Allen and her producers are doing, in a sense carrying on the dub tradition? Stop being so obtuse and antagonistic towards new music.
mitchellcervantes 3 years ago
"dub" implies a "tribute" to another recording, so it need not be even mentioned that a dub is prob. based on another song, or riddim: we KNOW that. Think about it. Lily, on the other hand, enjoys the ignorance of her audience, like Sean Paul does. Anyway, you are suggesting Lily Allen produced Alright Still? Is that seriously your line here? If you read my posts I have mentioned numerous times that I give more credit to Future Cut than Lily Allen.
PS. please put the thesaurus away.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
I realize reading is tough for a guy who think "antagonistic" is the kind of word you can access only through a thesaurus, but "Lily Allen and her producers" implies that there's Lily, and then there's the people who produced the album. Please try and keep up.
mitchellcervantes 3 years ago
Actually, I was referring to your use of the words "histrionics" and "obtuse"; hardly the vocabulary of a 22 year old, or anyone of any age for that matter.
"Lily Allen and her producers" implies a joint venture, hence the use of the work "AND". "And" is a simple operator that means not one, or the other, but BOTH. So, when you say Lily "Allen AND her producers" are carrying on the dub tradition ala Tubby, you are implicitly stating that Lily Allen had a part in the production.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Anyway, I fail to see where you are going with this. I have a point: EVERY single from Alright Steal is anchored on a sample, so give some credit to the originators. Simple. Do you really have an issue with that? You started all this with what you thought was a smoking gun but I refuted: "A Happy Dub" IS a rip-off and that's WHY its called a "dub". If you knew any history you would realize how ridiculous your point was. Besides, McCook sessioned on that recording, but its a Tubby dub.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
First, "histrionic" and "obtuse" aren't particularly big words. Sorry if you think otherwise.
Any way, you're missing the point:
Lily is ripping off McCook, Longhair, etc. the same way McCook/Tubby ripped off Cash. Musically they're doing something very similar. It's disingenuous to praise one and criticize the other.
If you're upset about credit, you're off base there as well. Mittoo is listed as a co-writer on Smile, Earl King as a co-writer on Knock Em' Out, and so on.
mitchellcervantes 3 years ago
Also, this kind of exposure does nothing but good for the music. I was passingly familiar with some dub before I'd heard of Lily Allen, but actively sought out the original music from the samples after hearing "Alright, Still" (the CD booklet proved very instructive). Instead of getting mad at Allen, you should be happy that she is both keeping the dub tradition alive and introducing a new generation (like me) to the classic sounds of decades past.
mitchellcervantes 3 years ago
Again, that is a Tubby track on which Tubby pioneered the art of studio production techniques that the technology of the day simply did not even suggest was possible. To lift a 4 bar run and simply hit repeat is something a 10 year old can do these days. Its call perspective. And again, Lily had nothing to do with the production and i HAVE explicitly praised Future Cut's production work here.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
And again, a "dub", in its very title, says "good chance we didnt write this" and everyone who know anything about reggae KNOWS about riddims, so the onus simply is not on those artists to mention it: it is a given. Lily's audience knows next to nothing about this and she NEVER mentions it next to the legalities of citing in the liner notes which most people dont examine and are certainly not included with iTunes downloads. You are saying nothing new; read the posts.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
And im not "mad" at Lily Allen. Even though Alright Still is an amazing sounding album Lily Allen gets way more credit than she is worth from the ignorant masses. I dont know Lily Allen and she might be a great person. She might have even had more to do with the album than I suspect, but she does NOT bring any attention to those she sampled, pure and simple. I pay tribute to the originators and provide this content to peple like you who bother to proactively seek it.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
In fact, I honestly mean to to this with a whole bunch of sampled/remade/stolen songs from many artists but haven't got around to it. I did Lily because she is particularly prolific with the sampling, because i love dub, and simply timing. Thing is, if I do Sean Paul next will I have the same number of people yelling at me and "defending his honor"? Scary thought.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
I am not convinced that this does "good" for the genre. While sampling the Stones breaks the bank, sampling ol' reggae tunes is almost free. Looking at Lily's success, are not more people simply going to take the easy way out? Do I/you want our reggae/dub to be nothing more than sampled cause its cheap and easy for the "artist"? There aint much artistry in that and I dont support it, even if it sounds cool even to me. Sampling used to be inventive, but this is just rewritting an old gem.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Perspective again where "A Happy Dub" is concerned. Harldy anyone knows that song, and when they do the first thing they KNOW is that its "ring of fire". Its an obscure studio track that I dont even think is great. If millions of peolple starting going gaga over it, I would be just as antagonistic towards that tune. Dont get me wrong, I love music, and I even love "smile" despite my objections.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
yo man im a sample producer and we use samples as paying tribute to the records we love. if she wouldnt have bought this beat from future cut then themainstream world would have never heard this kind of ryhthm before.
Eternal56 3 years ago
"never heard this kind of ryhthm before"? You mean never heard a reggae rhythm before, or THIS rhythm? People obviously have heard reggae before, so you mean THIS rhythm I suspect.
True, without Smile most people would have never heard the original, but whats the difference if next to no one who hears it knows that there even is an original? That Lily is is so terribly close lipped about all this amounts to her taking credit for it and does nothing for the original artists.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Being that you are a "sample producer", I'm sure that you understand that all said there are 2 kinds of samples:
1) Sampling material that you know there is a damn good chance people will recognize so you KNOW you cant get away with pretending that you made it
2) Sampling obscure material that you KNOW next to no one will be able to recognize knowing that you need not correct them when they lay on the adulation
Which route you think Lily took?
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Now, I cant say that Lily is not a reggae fan, but I can tell you that I have been watching her myspace page (which launched her career) since before her American crossover success and she simply did not mention any love of reggae, short of mentioning the specials (who doesnt cite the specials as a fav band?), and adding the slits (another quasi only reggae band) and Barington levy. With such and exhaustive "influence" list, where's the reggae?
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Re: smile, Lily said this:
"When I set out to do this I knew I wanted to make songs that sounded a) up to date and now and b) really organic," she says. "Because you can't get really good players without spending loads of money these days, the only other option is to sample.
That doest sound like a tribute to me, it looks like calculated "thievery".
Anyway, like I always say, Alright Still is an awesome album, but lets all give props/respect to the originals, once we know about them.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
The only other thing I want to say is that regardless of where the original samples came from, there CAN be true artistry to how you "arrange" the samples. There SHOULD be. Lily Allen's samples are simply 2 or 4 bar loops in most cases. That they are cleaned up, eq'ed, enhanced, etc, to the point where they sound so fresh is Future Cut's work, not Lily's. So, as the vehicle for her songwriting, she did next to nothing to reinvent the original material, she simply sang over top of it.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
i dont think she's ever taken credit for writing the actual music, just for writing the lyrics. i think she said once that she was just given tracks and told to write for them, so its possible that she doesnt even know about these originals. her producers,however, should definitely have given some credit.
ibnerdsunite 3 years ago
i think she likes like sort of punky electronica kind of grime kind of like new wave grime kinda maybe more like broken beats like kinda dubby broken beats but a little bit kind of soulful like kind of drum and bassy but kind of more broken drum and bass like broken beat but break beats kind of drum and bass kinda... dyaknow whuimean?
timekingman 3 years ago
I don't. I don't she does either. The guys in the record shop look none too impressed. I never understood that part:
Is she making fun of music snobs or making fun of herself? Either way, that part os pretty funny.
BUT, it WAS music snobs that produced her record and found all these old gems to sample. HORRAY FOR MUSIC SNOBS!!!
ogodefacto 3 years ago
yeah that was hilarious, gotta say tho, love it, dem uk gyals are a riot, love dat uk flava, big upon e16 massive east london, what!
timekingman 3 years ago
u got that off of the begining of lLDN video.
nutrock87 3 years ago
your brilliance is beyond me
timekingman 3 years ago
well said, she aint the only one either. Sublime has a talent for copying obscure tunes (especially reggae) rewriting the lyrics (from Gershwin, Toots, the Wailers etc.) and pretending to be geniuses ahead of their time...how lame.
rudeboyjohn 3 years ago
Thanks for posting this clip with the original Soul Vendors' track! It's all too often that the originators don't get the credit which they deserve. But on the other hand I'm not mad at Lily for sampling this song.(Sampling the entire song actually...)It happens almost everyday in Jamaican dancehall. Ripping artists off is almost a tradition in Jamaican music. What does anger me is the fact that Jackie Mittoo probably made about $20 off of this song and she's making millions! That's fucked up.
aakira009 3 years ago
Jackie is dead. Join his myspace at
myspace . com / officialjackiemittoo.
Agreed wholsale lifting is commonplace is reggae, riddims and all. But Mitto actually IS an originator: ie he MADE the riddims people been taking for ages, including "Full Up", one of the most used ever. Regarding the use of riddims, I always say its different when "jamaicans" use 'em 'cause everyone KNOWS they do it (except Sean Paul fans). Lily on the other hand has been playing on people's ignorance, keeping quiet.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Yes I know he's dead bro! I was just referring to how Jamaican session musicians back then were paid by the song with no royalties. Also, according to Coxsone, (from the "Studio One Story" documentary on Soul Jazz dvd)it was Robbie Lyn who played on Full Up after he took over when Jackie left for Canada. So ironically the originator of Full Up has never been given credit... I've also changed my opinion of Lily after I heard her dis my girl Corinne Bailey Rae. Now I think she's a bitch ass ho.lol
aakira009 3 years ago
I Tell U Watt ogodefacto U Stired Up Quite A Debate With This Tune And Lily
Perhaps Its The Saying """Maybe The Truth Hurts""" To People Who Dont Even Know Bout The Riddims And Her Fucking Rip Offs
Big Yaself Up
For Bringing It Up The Truth :-)
firebladerr1 3 years ago
Thx. Too many people dont understand that I am doing this because I truly have so much respect for these originators and I really worry about the vast library of riddims that I fear will be exploited (sampled or copied) by western artists more and more and who, like Lily, will be more than happy letting that audience think that they wrote the tunes.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
I GUARANTEE that it's just a matter of time before some western artist re-releases a version of Jackie Mittoo's "Full Up" riddim that was already popularized by the Mighty Diamonds on "Pass The Kuchie" and more famously to western audiences by Musical Youth's "Pass the Dutchie". Maybe Lily Allen will make "Pass the Pringles".
ogodefacto 3 years ago
That's the day I would kill myself and burn all my reggae 45s! But seriously though, thanks for bringing up this topic! This kind of controversy is what's going to make more people hip to vintage Jamaican music. At the very least she's exposing people (albeit in an irresponsible manner)to an amazing song that would otherwise only be known to a handful of reggae obsessed collectors around the world.(myself included)But you're right, she doesn't give nearly enough credit to the original artists.
aakira009 3 years ago
hahahaha, "Pass The Pringles", love it.
duncabbin 3 years ago
this gobby little airhead media whore who doesnt credit the people her music has blatantly ripped should be kicked in the cunt till dead.
duncabbin 3 years ago
when artists use samples, they do give credit... in the CD booklet, the credits are given where due.
TyWalkerMusic 3 years ago
never has credit been given to Jackie Mittoo or Tommy McCook, she comes across as someone who is original, she is like one of those X factor mugs, except she is in a better postion to start with, down to her old man being famous.
duncabbin 3 years ago
Why do people who defend just come up up with the same lame argument that was passed 3 comments before?
ogodefacto 3 years ago
She gave credit in her liner notes, yes, she is obligated to do that. But is that enough? Why does she NEVER mention these artists. Why does she never say she sampled them. In all my research (yes i read extensively) I read only 1 comment about the matter and it was not a flattering one. Lily Allen I pick on becuase she is a phony. The songs you sing along to are not hers.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
lily is a a wack bitch
cabron8000 3 years ago
Why don't you post a rap video that samples music like this? Lily isn't doing anything hundreds of others do. She credited it in the linear notes, it isn't a direct sample. She's doing no more than anyone else does.
You guys are just a bunch of picky assholes looking to crucify Lily for anything you can. Get a life.
willowxxx 3 years ago
always out to defend the rich white girl...keeping the black man poor, you a racist - bitch
cluckinfold 3 years ago
Please. You're just some idiot trying to pretend to be an intellectual giant. I'm not defending Lily, I'm simply pointing out the fact that she isn't doing anything tons of other artists don't do. You're just a small man with a deep need for attention.
willowxxx 3 years ago
There IS a big difference, willowxxx. I have pointed this out many times already, so read the posts. The difference is that we KNOW rap/hip-hop samples: that is the root of that music. They don't even have to say anything 'cause we know it to be true. Also, hip-hop artists tend to be a little more creative with their sampling, rather than just looping the same 4 bars over and over (ps this IS a direct sample, used clean in her demo (dl it) and simply processed for final release).
ogodefacto 3 years ago
It's not just rap.hip-hop that does it. If you are a semi-intelligent listener to music, you know sampling occurs in all types of music. And No, rap doesn't get creative with their samples. They just have some jackass talk over the sample. No difference. Any halfwit could see that. I see rappers getting in trouble for not crediting who they sample. Not Lily.
willowxxx 3 years ago
There ARE too many artists that just loop, and that is sad. Too often I hear it, even from the big boys, but we KNOW they do it; We don't even have to ask. But, at least they are often the producer as well, so THEY are the ones doing all the actual sampling, eqing, compressing, overdubs, etc. Does Jay Z sample? Sure, but he is also a very talented producer. Lily Allen is not.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Here's a thought... How many people would be talking about Jackie Mittoo, if not for Lily Allen?
willowxxx 3 years ago
Actully, people are talking about Jackie Mittoo becuase of this post, not becuase of Lily Allen. I am the one making this cause, NOT Lily Allen. You and far too many others know NOTHING about this until you stumbled upon it here. So thx.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Uhh, wrong. I clicked on this video because of Lily Allen, not you. So Lily Allen IS the reason. Nice try though. But you seem to be a complete fuckwit, so I'll humor your need for attention
willowxxx 3 years ago
omg you are boring me now. Obviously you were looking for Lily Allen but you clicked on this post because I made it and I brought you this content. So, you heard this song from me, not Lily Allen. Get it?
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Wrong again, moron. Had Lily's name NOT been in the title of this video, I wouldn't have clicked on it. So, you posted a video on YouTube. Lily was the reason I watched.
Get it?
willowxxx 3 years ago
"And sampling occurs in all types of music, not just rap"
huh? I dont follow. Extensive sampling like this in Jazz or Rock? uh-uh
Pop? sure, but usually only by youth-oriented quasi rap. Certinaly not adult contempory pop, just pop that is marketed to the same people who like rap generally.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Rock music? yes! Look at the Verve! Sampled the Rolling Stones.
Just stop trying to sound intelligent. You're embarrassing yourself
willowxxx 3 years ago
Holy fuck, sweetheart. EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET KNEW THAT SONG AND KNEW IT WAS A SAMPLE. ps, the verve was sued and lost EVERYTHING. They made NO money on that album. Seriously do not play music jeapordy with me.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
You asked for a rock band who sampled. No one is playing music Jeopardy (The show was ACTUALLY called Rock N Roll Jeopardy). You just want to pretend you're a musical elitist by spouting off a couple names. Why don't you go down to starbucks and see how many people you can impress
willowxxx 3 years ago
Actually, I didnt "ask for a name" at all. That you can cite a few examples is not at all revelant; I am making generalizations that ring true regardless of a few examples that refute that generalization. Sampling in rock is virtually non-existant.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
The other thing is that, YES this IS a race issue: race and culture are intrinsically linked. Quick, how many white reggae artists can you name? None? Maybe quasi reggae like the specials or the police? They wrote their own songs. So the only white reggae artist you can name is some young white chick who just sampled all the tunes? That is sad. So while you think this is not a race issue, as a caucasian person, I am very embarrased by this.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
No, you're a person looking to use the race card to discredit an artist you don't like. You need a real hobby, kiddo.
willowxxx 3 years ago
And you are truly naive. If race is not an issue, name some white rappers that have cred. You cant, period. That is not my fault, that is a fact. I dont make the rules, I just observe them. Beastie Boys? Everlast? Eminem? List is running short.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
But what do white rappers have to do with this? Jesus Christ! You're worse than Spike Lee!
willowxxx 3 years ago
You claimed that race is not an issue. I claim that it is and present my evidence. Lily Allen IS effectively a white rapper stealing from black reggae artists.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
judge dread is one of the biggest selling reggae artists and he be WHITE!!!!
ub40.....massive!!!
badbadleeroy 3 years ago
I'm a huge Judge Dread fan.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Maybe Lily will sample him next, and UB40 too.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
you all racist
cluckinfold 3 years ago
...talentless piggy-faced little monster gobbling up dub records and pooing out saccharin nursery rhymes...
cluckinfold 3 years ago
Hey, if it were Micheal Jackson's music, most people would make an instant association because his name and music is so out there. Nothing wrong with that. You should not be exempted from giving credit just because the musician is less known to you or your target audience even if you have talent and appeal. It's irresponsible. If this argument does not resonate with you then so be it. You have no conscience.
ruppertups 3 years ago
Exactly. If Lily sampled Michael Jackson, giving credit would be a moot point really. But Lily Allen has intentionally sampled obscure artists and then done literally nothing to give them credit short of her legal obligation to give credit in the liner notes. If Lily Allen didnt hide this fact I, and others, wouldnt have to point it out. I dont care that she sampled, I care that she doesnt give credit, effectively taking it for herself.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
You Have alot to defend for yourself and others.why bother lilyallen has fans already its not like your gonna change people prespective on her,You seem like all you do is bash lily 24/7 so just chill!! sure she not giving credit or shouting out i just used Jackie Mittoos! beat for my new song No One does that,listen to smile and this big diffrence Huh! she didnt copy anything there all beats no lyrics she wrote her own lyrics not her music but she did enhance it and made it her own,
marcsoyeah 3 years ago
Most people who post are really quite taken aback by the amount of sampling on "lily's album", even you, I suggest. Tell the truth, before my posts, or someone else told you, you though these were original songs. But, practically every song is just a sample. Wrote her own lyrics? Possibly, but is that really an achievement? Could You have not written those lyrics? I say you could have, as I could have, as my local Subway sandwich artist could have.
ogodefacto 3 years ago
At least there songs are hits i love lily allen shes orginal her styl and everything shes using the beat! fact i guess but at least shes writing her OWN songs! everyone now uses beats from diffrent times its nothing new so get over it ,
marcsoyeah 3 years ago
Is this english?
ogodefacto 3 years ago
what is the name of Jackie's original track? I want to buy it.
ruppertups 4 years ago
Free Soul
ogodefacto 3 years ago
Thanks!
ruppertups 3 years ago
well since it offends you so deeply and personally, i suggest you make two more videos- one citing Cat Stevens (Littlest Things)and another for Big Chief (Friday Night).
tuesdaymorning66 4 years ago
Right, I just lost momentum: Busy at work and all. Becuase I have only managed to make 3 vids I have, in the process, slighted other artists worth a nod. I am particularily wary of the LDN and Smile samples because they are her lead off singles and BOTH "reggae". All the others are worth mentioning and I WILL get around to them simply because, as you suggest, if I mention a few I should mention them all.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
strangely enough most artists sample music. crazy huh.
tuesdaymorning66 4 years ago
"strangely enough most artists sample music. crazy huh."
Most? Not true. Maybe most hip hop, but even there not so much any more. Anyway, we KNOW that they sample.
SO do most non hip-hop "artists" sample for their entire album, with the samples doing nothing more than laying the foundation of the song looped over and over?
Ummmmmmmmmm, no.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
Sounds like the one on Lily's myspace. Scratch that, it is the one on her myspace. Least the backing is.
augiefroggie 4 years ago
lillie allen is cool
MusicCloseToU 4 years ago
Nice one! But I never heard of Lily allen.
hultonclint 4 years ago
I LOVE IT!...thanks for this, as I couldn't remember where she got it from!=]
darkangelO1 4 years ago
Ogodefacto, do you have any idea what year this Jackie Mittoo song was released? I would really like to know and I would appreciate it a lot.
OOlouiseyOO 4 years ago
i think 60's? This is like jazz in alot of ways
MuskokaLad 4 years ago
Thankyou very much. :-)
OOlouiseyOO 4 years ago
Mittoo's songs are somewhat like the Zeppelin of reggae. Such great chillin tunes.
MuskokaLad 4 years ago 2
A few people mentioned on this discussion as well as on the 'LDN' one in which a supersonics backbeat was used that its common knowledge her backing tracks are sampled.
Im a massive fan of Jackie Mittoo, Coxone and Tommy McCook and I honestly wasn't aware of her heavy sampling, which is very worrying. Although historically its happened a lot in reggae music Im suprised in this instance and Ive definately lost some respect for her songwriting.
tomwoodska 4 years ago
shes a robber created by the music thives of the u.k needs songs written and stolen to order dont no if i could stomach her or the other druged out soul singer whatsa features with the tatooes
moonuni 4 years ago
Good video. Lily Allen is a moron.
R0kket 4 years ago 4
Jackie Mittoo, a very cool dude who also wore cool clothes. TOP MAN
noxinsox1 4 years ago 3
nice one
saulhughes 4 years ago
This is an uphill battle for me. I know that most people who happen upon my Lily ALlen "tribute" videos are Lily Allen fans and will likely be hostile to my position. Understand that my sole aim is not to discredit Lily Allen but to turn you all on to the music that Lily Allen was (cough) "inspired" by.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
That's great, but I think you waste a lot of energy putting Lily Allen down that could be spent turning people on to reggae music. Hint: people don't like to be turned on to music by pricks.
roxymuzak 4 years ago
Wow, lots of name calling on your end. Are you Lily Allen's mom, kin or best friend? Wouldn't it be great if, contrary to what you suggest, people were to like music for being good rather than for who referred them to it? Just a thought; mull it over. Am I a prick/mysogynst/whatever else you called me? For calling out Lily Allen? OK, sure.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
But you said your objective was to turn people on to music.
I have actually never listened to her before at all, but your hearty disapproval of her on the grounds of her race and gender comes off so petty and self-aggrandizing that it makes me wish I were a fan.
roxymuzak 4 years ago
Huh? I really have a hard time with your logic (or lack thereof)...
You wish you were a fan of an artist simply because someone else criticizes them? Odd.
"Never listened to here"? And yet you came here to defend here? Even odder.
"Self-aggrandizing"? Did I brag or something? I simply state the facts; This isnt about me.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
What I HAVE managed to do is make you recognize that the album Lily Allen fronts is an exercise in sampling: you didt know this before you happened upon my posting(s). I do not believe that her credibility has not been dimished in your eyes as a result. If you suggest that you deem her MORE credible for this practice or you think that it is a non-issue then I seriously question your sincerity.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
To allege my "hearty disapproval of her on the grounds of her race and gender" is my reason for criticizing Lily Allen means that you have not recognized the scope of my contention, nor, again, have you addressed my explicitly stated reasons for this concern. There ARE musical barriers, racial barriers, gender barriers and social barriers. IF you "cross them" you should have respect for what is on the other side and you should expect a degree of skeptisicm. Lily Allen is simply vacationing.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
You just haven't demonstrated to me that she doesn't have respect for it. It would be difficult to do so.
roxymuzak 4 years ago
Get a cause you fuckin GEEK.
MuskokaLad 4 years ago
Im a geek cause I like reggae music and I want people to know about the originals?
ogodefacto 4 years ago
Ignore the loser!
he's the one that needs to get a life!
darkangelO1 4 years ago
What? Everyone knows her music has samples in it. Anyone who does not know this is too stupid to worry about, man.
roxymuzak 4 years ago
Nope. Not everyone knows this. Not by a long shot. Again, she next to never mentions it, and when she does she doesn't detail the extent of the sampling or name/credit her sources. It is this lack of consideration that DOES demonstrate her lack of respect.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
I didn't come here to listen to defend her. I came here to listen to Jackie Mittoo.
roxymuzak 4 years ago
Lily Allen, however, is not a reggae artisit. She is some young white chick who I assure you knows nothing about the history of reggae music outside of Bob Marley. For some reason though (sheer ignorance?), people seem to think that Lily wrote her own songs, where in fact "she" simply annexed another culture's music.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
Agreed that reggae is steeped in a tradition of "sampling". SO steeped, in fact, that everyone who knows anything about reaggae music knows this intuitively. As such, any regggae artist of old or new is taken in context and is KNOWN to have sampled/copied/stolen/etc and artisits pay tribute to their forfathers/peers simply in the act of their production. THEY are almost always effectively playing "standards" and everyone knows this, so everyone SHOULD give credit to Lily's "influences" too.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
hahahaha u make me laught
ericklinkss 4 years ago
Ok, assure me of it.
Also, most of the reggae artists you mention did not write their own songs. There was a strong songwriting industry in Jamaica in the 60s-70s (like everywhere else) that existed outside of performance.
To dismiss her using race and gender is highly offensive (not to mention stupid).
roxymuzak 4 years ago 2
YOu dont read before you comment. I acknowledged that most reggae artists didnt write their won songs, and even when they did they were effectively reworking another song anyway. This is also true of the "songwriters", where "singwriter" often meant the producer who owned the facilities who demanded high percentages and undo credit.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
As I acknowledged, the Jamaican music industry was riddled with scandal, copying, stealing and injustice to the "artists". BUT, like I said, this was KNOWN to be true. "Musical gangsters" is was they were, so every credit was eyed suspiciously.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
"To dismiss her using race and gender is highly offensive (not to mention stupid)."
You and I disagree. She is an ignorant little white girl being HANDED a bunch of songs that are rooted in another culture that I dont believe that she has any knowledge of or appreciation for. If this were rap/hiphop she would be ridiculed beyond belief. Because it is reggae, a subject people know little about which is ironice becuase in many ways it was the forfather of rap/hiphop, we dont even notice.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
So am I racist? I AM WHITE. BUT, I know my history and LOVE reggae/dub music. IF I sampled one of these masters I would be telling EVERYONE who listen about these classics. I would say OMG if you don;t listen to tubby or perry or uroy or iroy or pablo or scientist or Hudson etc etc then you are missing out. Why doesn't Lily ever do this if she so wants to be a nuovo reggae artist? THAT is why I am suspicious and why I discredit her.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
So, when Lily Allen says, regarding "writing" smile, "We just went through about seven or eight sample lyrics, found a beat, put it all in", I say, Lily Allen, you are an idiot who doesnt give credit to your sample sources or to your producers who, as evidenced by their body of work, are the ones who made Lily Allen's album what it is.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
And I say you're a misogynist who needs to pick his battles.
roxymuzak 4 years ago
misogynist?
I hate women because I think what Lily Allen has done is disgraceful and have clearly laid out a solid argument in line with that position?
How irresponsible for you to toss that word around; You have served only to truly discredit women who justifiably claim to be the victims of misogyny. Chose your words a little more carefully and you will be taken more seriously, Peter.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
Ummmmm, quick, name me 10 female reggae artists. OK, name me 5. No? Name me one. No? Huh? Sorry, but it IS a sexist genre and I didnt make it that way. BUT if any women is going to rise above this barrier it sure as hell shouldnt be Lily Allen. Get real.
ogodefacto 4 years ago
susan cadogan
phyllis dillon
millie small
hortense ellis
doreen schaffer
pauline black...