It wasn't that God gave a message and then didn't send a messenger to spread it across the world. God was even better than that: In a real sense, God first offered His instruction (Torah) to all the Nations of the world, but only Israel accepted. Still the others knew about it, and could indeed receive it whenever they want (Bear in mind that, as Egypt was the world's ruling nation, the rest of the known world heard about Moses God, and of His conflict with Pharaoh). Peace
@MashiahBenYosef show me that in the Bible. I see the Jews being set apart as a witness to all people, both as a witness showing us how to act, and how not to. That witness is only viable retrospectively, and only by reading God's word and learning of His ways and His heart. The only reason anyone outside of the small nation of Israel has God's word, is because Jesus came, and sent missionaries to us, they brought the Bible with them. Truth without a messenger is worthless.
before Sinai, doesn't God punish people for acting badly? So what were the rules which were being violated?? Why were the people of Nineveh going to be destroyed? What did the people of Sodom of Gomorrah do wrong? The people of Noah who were killed in the flood? How did Cain know murder was wrong? etc.
I think you are "right" that the Bible doesn't give a nice and neat list of 7 commandments. But if the commandments weren't there at all then the above examples just don't make sense.
Actually, Cain probably did not intend to murder Abel, but we may never know. We do know that before the Mosaic covenant, those who loved God had a sacrificial system in place, yet we see no evidence of God commanding them to do so, but He must have, given the many examples. God punishes people for rebelling against whatever rules or standards He sets up, regardless of what they may have been. The Ninevites were apparently grossly wicked, so much that their sin reached heaven & angered God.
I think what you say here is very similar to the reasoning of the rabbis. God is not unfair. So if we see Gentiles nations being punished they must have violated *some* set of rules. Then the question is just what that set of rules is. I'm not claiming the Talmud is perfect, but it represents a pretty decent attempt to reason and determine just what those laws are.
The rules, if any that Gentiles violate are the eternal and perfect laws of God that all of us instinctively know, i.e. against murder, against lies, against theft. Things of that nature are ingrained into the minds of all human beings, but God was more lenient with the gentiles than He was the Jews because the Jews are a nation of priests and they are also the ones through whom the Messiah was to come. You will note that God called Nebuchadnezzar His servant, but only after he was humble
In Genesis, the covenant of Noah is described as an everlasting one. Genesis 9:12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations:
ok so I have a question. What makes you so sure that YOURS is the LAST covenant? Maybe YOURS has been done away with too!!! Watchit, lol.
If Judaism was false, Christianity and Islam would collapse, being untrue. If, however, Christianity and Islam are both untrue, Judaism can stand alone and true.
lol keep talking to us, you'll eventually convert to Judaism. :D
it isn't my covenant, it is God's final covenant, as it says in Jeremiah 30,& is an eternal covenant. The mediator of that covenant can be found in Daniel 7, and is a human like being who is brought before God and who is given glory and eternal power, and a kingdom that never ends. God says plainly that He will not give His glory to another god, so that being is Jesus, or nobody. I find it ironic that Jews object to Jesus based on His "teaching" that there are 3 gods, when He doesn't in any way
How do you KNOW that it is the final covenant? The Muslims claim the same thing! As do mormons, witnesses, bahai, etc...How do you know yours is the real McCoy?
That's not the only reason we reject him. I rejected him bec. of the contradictions in the NT and bec. he didn't fulfill the prophecies.
well, part of the whole "He didn't fulfill the prophesies" thing is that nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures does it list the messianic prophesies as such, i.e. "here is a Messianic prophesy, and here is the chronological order in which things will happen", etc. To say Jesus didn't fulfill any of the prophesies is naive at best, & in fact, He fulfilled about 8/10 of them. Even in the Talmud, some rabbis recognized that the time of Messiah had come & gone, so if Jesus isn't it, nobody is
Please give refs instead of making broad claims about the Talmud. Can I have some refs please? (Yerushlami or Bavli, & Tractate/Page). :)
If you don't think "messianic prophecies" are listed as such, how did he fulfill 8/10ths of them? I think by careful reading, anyone can figure out which are messianic prophecies and which are not, and what he might have fulfilled. How many times have you read the Bible through?
As far as the name of the rabbi, I will have to dig for it, because I read it in a booklet in Barnes and Noble bookstore about 3 years ago. What I meant was that messianic prophesies are subject to interpretation, and are not necessarily in chronological order. The use of phrases such as as "in those days" and "at that time", etc. can also be vague. Part of the wonder of prophesy is that it was not designed to be a point by point prediction, but is supposed to inspire study & contemplation
Modern judaism isn't even the same as ancient Judaism as found in the Hebrew Scriptures. How do you get forgiveness for your sins, Gbjew? Let's see how well you stack up against the Hebrew Scriptures.
The word Javan is the Hebrew word for the country known as Greece, or Helena as they call it. The Arabs call it Yawan, and the Kurdish people call it Yowann, but it is the same place.
The Middle East had been influenced by Hellenistic culture since Alexander the Great conquered Persia around 800BC. Greeks were the most visible polytheists, and much of the population spoke Greek; Latin was reserved for the upper-class Romans.
While Christianity is considered by Jews to be a monotheistic religion, the trinity is not compatible with Jewish theology.
When the Ottomans invaded Greece, the Greek people rallied around the cross; this helped them to retain their culture and ethnicity in the face of Islamic persecution and replacement theology.
Most biblical references to "Greeks" are actually about polytheists in general, Greece ultimately embraced Eastern Orthodoxy.
It wasn't that God gave a message and then didn't send a messenger to spread it across the world. God was even better than that: In a real sense, God first offered His instruction (Torah) to all the Nations of the world, but only Israel accepted. Still the others knew about it, and could indeed receive it whenever they want (Bear in mind that, as Egypt was the world's ruling nation, the rest of the known world heard about Moses God, and of His conflict with Pharaoh). Peace
MashiahBenYosef 10 months ago
@MashiahBenYosef show me that in the Bible. I see the Jews being set apart as a witness to all people, both as a witness showing us how to act, and how not to. That witness is only viable retrospectively, and only by reading God's word and learning of His ways and His heart. The only reason anyone outside of the small nation of Israel has God's word, is because Jesus came, and sent missionaries to us, they brought the Bible with them. Truth without a messenger is worthless.
apologeticsman 10 months ago
before Sinai, doesn't God punish people for acting badly? So what were the rules which were being violated?? Why were the people of Nineveh going to be destroyed? What did the people of Sodom of Gomorrah do wrong? The people of Noah who were killed in the flood? How did Cain know murder was wrong? etc.
I think you are "right" that the Bible doesn't give a nice and neat list of 7 commandments. But if the commandments weren't there at all then the above examples just don't make sense.
hueyfreeman2006 2 years ago
Actually, Cain probably did not intend to murder Abel, but we may never know. We do know that before the Mosaic covenant, those who loved God had a sacrificial system in place, yet we see no evidence of God commanding them to do so, but He must have, given the many examples. God punishes people for rebelling against whatever rules or standards He sets up, regardless of what they may have been. The Ninevites were apparently grossly wicked, so much that their sin reached heaven & angered God.
apologeticsman 2 years ago
I think what you say here is very similar to the reasoning of the rabbis. God is not unfair. So if we see Gentiles nations being punished they must have violated *some* set of rules. Then the question is just what that set of rules is. I'm not claiming the Talmud is perfect, but it represents a pretty decent attempt to reason and determine just what those laws are.
hueyfreeman2006 2 years ago
The rules, if any that Gentiles violate are the eternal and perfect laws of God that all of us instinctively know, i.e. against murder, against lies, against theft. Things of that nature are ingrained into the minds of all human beings, but God was more lenient with the gentiles than He was the Jews because the Jews are a nation of priests and they are also the ones through whom the Messiah was to come. You will note that God called Nebuchadnezzar His servant, but only after he was humble
apologeticsman 2 years ago
In Genesis, the covenant of Noah is described as an everlasting one. Genesis 9:12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations:
hueyfreeman2006 2 years ago
ok so I have a question. What makes you so sure that YOURS is the LAST covenant? Maybe YOURS has been done away with too!!! Watchit, lol.
If Judaism was false, Christianity and Islam would collapse, being untrue. If, however, Christianity and Islam are both untrue, Judaism can stand alone and true.
lol keep talking to us, you'll eventually convert to Judaism. :D
gbjew 3 years ago
it isn't my covenant, it is God's final covenant, as it says in Jeremiah 30,& is an eternal covenant. The mediator of that covenant can be found in Daniel 7, and is a human like being who is brought before God and who is given glory and eternal power, and a kingdom that never ends. God says plainly that He will not give His glory to another god, so that being is Jesus, or nobody. I find it ironic that Jews object to Jesus based on His "teaching" that there are 3 gods, when He doesn't in any way
apologeticsman 3 years ago
How do you KNOW that it is the final covenant? The Muslims claim the same thing! As do mormons, witnesses, bahai, etc...How do you know yours is the real McCoy?
That's not the only reason we reject him. I rejected him bec. of the contradictions in the NT and bec. he didn't fulfill the prophecies.
gbjew 3 years ago
well, part of the whole "He didn't fulfill the prophesies" thing is that nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures does it list the messianic prophesies as such, i.e. "here is a Messianic prophesy, and here is the chronological order in which things will happen", etc. To say Jesus didn't fulfill any of the prophesies is naive at best, & in fact, He fulfilled about 8/10 of them. Even in the Talmud, some rabbis recognized that the time of Messiah had come & gone, so if Jesus isn't it, nobody is
apologeticsman 3 years ago
Please give refs instead of making broad claims about the Talmud. Can I have some refs please? (Yerushlami or Bavli, & Tractate/Page). :)
If you don't think "messianic prophecies" are listed as such, how did he fulfill 8/10ths of them? I think by careful reading, anyone can figure out which are messianic prophecies and which are not, and what he might have fulfilled. How many times have you read the Bible through?
gbjew 3 years ago
As far as the name of the rabbi, I will have to dig for it, because I read it in a booklet in Barnes and Noble bookstore about 3 years ago. What I meant was that messianic prophesies are subject to interpretation, and are not necessarily in chronological order. The use of phrases such as as "in those days" and "at that time", etc. can also be vague. Part of the wonder of prophesy is that it was not designed to be a point by point prediction, but is supposed to inspire study & contemplation
apologeticsman 3 years ago
Modern judaism isn't even the same as ancient Judaism as found in the Hebrew Scriptures. How do you get forgiveness for your sins, Gbjew? Let's see how well you stack up against the Hebrew Scriptures.
GuardianofTwilight 3 years ago
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Watch my video sacrifices and atonement to find out how I get forgiveness.
gbjew 3 years ago
The word Javan is the Hebrew word for the country known as Greece, or Helena as they call it. The Arabs call it Yawan, and the Kurdish people call it Yowann, but it is the same place.
apologeticsman 3 years ago
The Middle East had been influenced by Hellenistic culture since Alexander the Great conquered Persia around 800BC. Greeks were the most visible polytheists, and much of the population spoke Greek; Latin was reserved for the upper-class Romans.
While Christianity is considered by Jews to be a monotheistic religion, the trinity is not compatible with Jewish theology.
ChoofMonster 3 years ago
When the Ottomans invaded Greece, the Greek people rallied around the cross; this helped them to retain their culture and ethnicity in the face of Islamic persecution and replacement theology.
Most biblical references to "Greeks" are actually about polytheists in general, Greece ultimately embraced Eastern Orthodoxy.
ChoofMonster 3 years ago