Scientology vs. Christianity: Cult vs. Religion? Or not?

[BrAdEnSB666]

Both are on the right track but somewhere they got mixed up about the truth

[TheMovieBuff91]

You left out the most important fact about Christianity. Which is Jesus. In regards to the fruit, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of good and evil. If you would REALLY like to know more, then comment back.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 More about what? You haven't really said anything... and by the way, there's very little difference between the story of Jesus and most other stories of monotheistic gods. In fact, the ancient civilizations did the "god in human form" thing first.

-IMP ;) :)

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk Maybe. But no other "god in human form" conquers death. Scientology was created in 1952 while Christianity is over 2000 years old.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 Um, yes, they did. Most of them were immortal. And is your argument really "it's older, so it's more true"? What kind of argument is that? What does age have to do with veracity at all?

-IMP ;) :)

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk Name some "gods" that have conquered death. My point is that there is actual history. There were people there to see Him ascend into the clouds and they passed the word on from generation to generation. You're right I haven't given you much information, I can't. I can tell you verses, references, and all kinds of stuff, but it won't do you any good. You have to see for yourself. No one will fully understand until they ask God to reveal Himself to them.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 Umm... when did Zeus die? Or Poseidon? Or Apollo? They were all immortal. In Jesus's case, he actually died before rising, while the ancient gods could never die. Makes me think Jesus was weaker than them ;) . And you really think 2,000-year-old eyewitness accounts mean anything? In that case, I suppose Achilles really was a demigod, Apollo really did win the Persian War, and Poseidon really did help Aeneas sail around. Or in more recent eyewitness accounts, alien abduction.

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk Listen man we can fight about this until the cows come home. I just want you to know that Jesus loves you and he wants a relationship with you.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 I'm not trying to fight about anything. I'm just trying to show you the hypocrisy of disbelieving every other religion, but then fully believing your own which has no more "evidence" than the others. And, unfortunately for Jesus, I'm not a necrophiliac.

-IMP ;) :)

[TheMovieBuff91]

@TheMovieBuff91

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk Hey man look bottom line is that Jesus loves you completely and wants a relationship with you. God has delivered me from death, loneliness, lust, lies, drunkenness, drug use, and every dumb thing that I did and will do. He was beaten, whipped to a pulp, nailed to a tree for my sin your sin and the sin of everyone who has lived, lives, and will live. Then rose again and wants a relationship with you because he LOVES you more than anyone could or would ever want to.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 Hey man look bottom line is that the FSM loves you completely and wants a relationship with you. FSM has delivered me from death, loneliness, lust, lies, drunkenness, drug use, and every dumb thing that I did and will do. He was beaten, whipped to a pulp, nailed to a tree for my sin your sin and the sin of everyone who has lived, lives, and will live. Then rose again and wants a relationship with you because he LOVES you more than anyone could or would ever want to. Am I right?

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk I know you may think that when you become a Christian you don't sin anymore. Negative ghostrider. We try not to sin and it is a daily battle and yea I can see why u think we are hypocrites. Because to most ppl think that we can't walk the walk. Well we know that! no one can. Bible says no one is righteous not even one. For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, but God demonstrates His own love for us while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 You have completely misunderstood me. The hypocrisy I mentioned wasn't about Christians sinning. I would be foolish to think anyone, of any religion, was "supposed to be" completely good with no harmful thoughts or actions. We're all human, after all. (Daft Punk reference!) What I meant was the hypocrisy in quickly dismissing every other religion as nonsense or just wrong while whole-heartedly believing in your own. That's what every theist on Earth does.

-IMP ;) :)

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk  No.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 Care to elaborate? There must be some reason you're so sure Jesus loves me but so sure the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't, right? I mean, I have faith he does, just as you do...

-IMP ;) :)

[TheMovieBuff91]

@IceMetalPunk Yes a flying spaghetti monster didn't pay the ultimate sacrifice for my sin. Jesus was a real person not a flying inanimate object.

[IceMetalPunk]

@TheMovieBuff91 Who says? But seriously, if your argument is "he was a person, and people said he was God, thus he must have been," even you have to realize how weak that argument is. /watch?v=Z2Kz8FzruvQ should show you how easy it is to convince people that a real, live person is divine, even when he isn't. The people in that video even paid and bowed down to this guy. It's not much different from Jesus in his time, if you think about it with an open mind.

-IMP ;) :)

[hyper672]

I been in 4 drffent religoins! iam not any religion any more! I hate the type of people are in religoins! there all stuck up and think there smarter then people who's not in the same religion! They make people feel bad! ''who they called none believers!'' and say there going to hell''!

A Cult and Religion are the same thing in my book! They both worship a god!

only thing is driffent is that in a cult u can end up dead!

[lesliekwan80]

Christianity is just as fucked up as Scientology. Even more so. Christians laugh at the stories from other religions and call them absurd, yet fail to see the craziness in their own mythology. For Christians, it's okay to have a talking snake and donkey, an invisible mind reading sky daddy and you visit when you die who had a zombie son (and that's just the tip of the iceberg). They refuse to scrutinize and critically examine their own faith, and laugh at others.

[IceMetalPunk]

@lesliekwan80 Of course. But that's not specific to Christianity. Followers of every religion can easily see the strange, unbelievable ideas in other beliefs, but are blinded to the incredulity of their own. I'm willing to bet it's a neuropsychological phenomenon...but that doesn't mean it should considered "okay" to continue with a delusion just because it's hard to break free. While the best things in life are free, they also take effort, and critical thinking is one of those "best things".

[manko51]

@lesliekwan80 hi five on that one mate!

[manko51]

this is a reply to all the comments. everyone takes the piss out of scientology saying "it's a fucking novel" well the bible is a fucking novel too. Yeah GOD really pulled out the rib from adam to make eve. Who the fuck is going to believe that shit!! Stop criticizing scientology because your religion is probably just as fucked up.

[pooptypeuptypants55c]

Wow! That's a good basis for a religeon. "Hey! I've got an idea!" "Yeah Bill." "I bet that I can make a religeon about aliens." "Aliens?" "YEAH!" "O.K.,what would the rules be?" "Oh wait, wait this is a good one. Let's make them pay money! Yeah! And when they don't like how we do things..." "YEAH!" "We sue 'em!" ..........."Bill that's a terrible idea." "I know but look at all the money i'll get!" "True."

[CamaroDrummer69]

now if im thinking about becoming an atheist, how can you describe to me a way to get rid of the guilt, pain, and sorrow that christianity uses christ for?

[IceMetalPunk]

Do you mean the guilt of unbelief? If you truly don't believe Christ was anything more than a man, what is there to feel guilty about?

If you mean guilt, pain, and sorrow in general, you're out of luck. Those are emotions that have nothing to do with religion: Life hands you lemons and lemonade, make what you will of them.

Guilt is not a bad thing. It tells us that we have done something that goes against ourselves, and it reminds us not to repeat the mistakes in the future.

-IMP ;) :)

[CamaroDrummer69]

now hold on, i have another question.

if atheists are so sure that GOD does not exist, then why are they always trying so hard to prove that HE doesn't. Why don't they just live their lives GOD free? Because always talking about it and bringing it up isn't being GOD free at all.

[IceMetalPunk]

An intelligent atheist would never say (s)he's sure God doesn't exit. The idea of God is unfalsifiable, and thus can never be proven or disproven. Atheists just believe, with the same strength of faith a theist believe, that God does not exit.

Why do we keep bringing it up? Because religion affects the world, and if theists are allowed to spread their point of view and convert others, why can't we?

Not that I try to convert anyone; I just try to get people to think critically for themselves.

[lurholm]

Actually, a true atheist does not claim that god does not exist. A true atheist simply refutes the STATEMENT that god exists. There is an important difference there. You see, we are not born with the notion that there is a god. It is something that is put before us by someone else. And, according to all conventions of logical reasoning, whoever makes a claim also has the burden of proof. So, unless those who claim god exists can prove it, atheists feel no need to take their claim seriously.

[n3bulous]

@CamaroDrummer69 you live your life Shiva free. you live your life Zeus free. you most certainly live your life Xenu free LOL. and on, and on, and on....

atheists just go one god further than you.

[dingumfCallofDuty]

@CamaroDrummer69

Those people who DON'T CARE are called agnostic.

[Kixkaxia]

@dingumfCallofDuty Those are people who are unsure. Nihilists don't care. Get your facts right.

[IceMetalPunk]

@Kixkaxia Nihilists don't care about anything. Agnostics are unsure about the existence of God, but they don't care about it. So you're both right :) .

-IMP ;) :)

[Kixkaxia]

@IceMetalPunk Thanks. BTW, some Agnostics say they are Atheist at the same time. Doesn't really make any sense. It means you don't believe in God and are unsure about it at the same time. That just defines Agnosticism.

[patrickthesaint]

You may be interested to know IceMetalPunk that in its early days, Christianity was indeed recognized by the Romans as a cult, whilst the Roman Gods were recognized as legitimate religion. Jupiter was real, Jesus wasn't.

Know of course we have "corrected" this misunderstanding.

[IceMetalPunk]

Yup, just like every religion was. Just like the idea the Ra was the only god in Egyptian times. He used to be just the Sun god, one of many gods, until someone (I think his name was Akmenh Ra or something like that) said, "No, Ra is the Only True God." Lucky for him he was a politician (a pharaoh) so when he was blasted for it he changed his mind. "No, you're right, he's just one. Silly me."

It always has been this way, and it always will be. Which only supports my disbelief in these things.

[kitykatie123]

Well Done!

As an atheist, I struggle to see the difference between scientology, christianity and most other major religions.

Scientology is blasted by society and the media for having a ridiculous belief system, which is crazy, considering the christian belief system is just as absurd.

Its great you had the courage to point this out to everyone.

Most people just aren't prepared to accept the fact that religion is just one big fairytale.

[RationalRoundtable]

Hey IMP, I have to say, that while you make a valid point when Christians try to label other religions as cults, I do think that your comparisons are somewhat unfair. I cannot speak for what Scientologists believe but humor me for a second. I will assume that everything you said about Scientology is in fact true.

[RationalRoundtable]

On point number one, you have one naturalistic evil alien vs a supernatural being while both can be deemed as similar as they are apparently the origin of evil to some; they are very different concepts if you examine them beyond the extremely general.

[RationalRoundtable]

On point two, you compare the evil alien dumping evil souls on Earth vs. the Devil tempting Eve. While these are indeed both explanations of the bad side of humanity, again you must paint an extremely broad brush to say that they are in any way the same. One is naturalistic the other supernatural.

[RationalRoundtable]

Point three is really your weakest rational comparison. Most Christian Churches do not demand a tithe, and those that do are following a false doctrine (IMHO) it is true that almost all Churches ask for support to cover operating expenses but this is a far cry from charging fees to become a member, and escalating fees for being a member in higher standing.

[RationalRoundtable]

On point four you really went off base, you argue that the rejection of modern medicine is the equivalent of the crusades? If you simply want to say that they caused deaths, well you can argue that almost anything causes death, be it a nation, a product, or a belief.

[RationalRoundtable]

Just to sum up IMP, I agree that without truly understanding Scientology it is unfair to call it a cult, and I would call it a religion but if you want to draw comparisons, lets be real. Using the generalizations that you did you could add a third column for atheists with the following:

[RationalRoundtable]

Point two, as we evolved we naturally developed evil because... well... just because.

Point three, atheists are always asking for money (buy my book! Give to the Freedom From Religion Foundation, etc)

Point four, Stalin killed millions

Therefore atheism is a cult.

[IceMetalPunk]

Wow. There's a big difference there. 2) Explaining a process of evolved 'evil" over millions of years is far different from assuming one singular event caused all past, present, and future evil. That is the comparison I tried to make. 3) There is no atheistic doctrine about money whatsoever, whereas tithe (asked for, even if not demanded) and Scientology's fees are part of the very fiber of the systems. 4) Stalin=1 atheist. Atheism alone does not kill.

QED, Atheism is NOT necessarily a cult.

[IceMetalPunk]

You were right that some of these need to be taken in a broader sense. However, every belief system is different, and so to compare any two one must look at them generally. For example, ancient Greek religions and Hinduism are the same in that they are both polytheistic. In this video I attempted to point out that the most commonly "ragged on" points of Scientology have their own counterparts in accepted religions, i.e. Christianity.

[IceMetalPunk]

Lastly, I do have a small bone to pick with how you said that Xenu and Satan are only similar in the "extremely general". This is a poor choice of words. They are both supernatural in some way, and they are both very powerful, and they are both evil. Beyond those common descriptions, even the "devil" has countless variations among the denominations of Christianity. I know a few people who truly believe Satan is an extraterrestrial--which, by the literal definition of the word, he is.

-IMP ;) :)

[RationalRoundtable]

My point IMP is that you make a valid case that it is wrong for members of one group to say that the other group is obviously wrong because of how ridiculous they are. The old saying of the pot calling the kettle black is very true. However even in atheism you run into various problems and can cite ludicrous sounding concepts.

[RationalRoundtable]

Also yes Stalin was an atheist, which does not mean that atheism kills, but at the same time the Christians caused the crusades, that does not mean that Christianity kills, you get the point.

[IceMetalPunk]

I do. Yet why were the Crusades enacted? Because of Christianity and the perceived need to purge/convert all the world's heathens. Stalin wanted political power, mostly. Therein lies the difference: Religion was at the heart of the killings in the Crusades, hence, religion did kill there.

I have yet to find a ludicrous concept in Atheism, since the only atheistic concept at all is "No God exists"...atheism says nothing else about anything...

-IMP ;) :)

[SlappyThePenguin]

Yes, you missed loads:

Scientology doesn't ask for donations it has a fixed price list, a pay as you go "religion". As for the tithing, when was the last time you heard of a Christian being turned away from their Church because they didn't donate money? Yes, they both believe some crazy assed shit, but Scientology costs anywhere from $300,000 to learn their crazy shit. Christianity $20 for a bible, free to learn their crazy shit. Both will need the "follower" to stop all rational thought.

[SlappyThePenguin]

Other things to take into account before comparing Scientology and Christianity:

The largest infiltration of the US Government was conducted by the Church of Scientology, Google "Operation Snow White".

The CoS has it's very own prison camps where people are held without committing any crimes other than doubting Scientology and its founder. Some have been held for over 10 years. Google "Scientology RPF".

Perhaps it would be be best to limit your comparisons to the last 100 years or so.

[IceMetalPunk]

Why? Scientology is very new; should I not compare it to the times when Christianity was new? Also, most of these comparisons ARE from the last 100 years. Only the Crusades go before that, and in that comparison I also mentioned modern-day faith killings and sin purges.

-IMP ;) :)

[SlappyThePenguin]

"Why? Scientology is very new; should I not compare it to the times when Christianity was new?"

Sorry, but that is a poor response. Comparing anything from our modern society to one of a quite primative one draws poor conclusions. Would you condemn modern medicine because of its barbaric history? Would you condemn present day Americans for their history of slave owning? I think not. Yet the crusades always get a look in when criticising Christianity.

[IceMetalPunk]

In a way that's true; but when you're the only one not "donating" tithe in your church, most of the time people begin to look down on you as "unchristian" or the like, pressuring you to donate. Although it is true that Scientology is more forceful in their monetary requests, again, does this force draw the line between Cult and Church?

-IMP ;) :)

[CommentsOpener]

In cults:

1) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. (google RPF)

2) The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (google "Homo Novis")

3) The group teaches that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. (google "Fair Game")

4) The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. (confessional folders have been used against members).

xenu(.)net

[SlappyThePenguin]

"but when you're the only one not "donating" tithe in your church, most of the time people begin to look down on you as "unchristian" or the like".

Completely false! My wife is Catholic, she has never been asked to tithe and has never had any pressure put on her to do so. It quite simply is never mentioned. The only time money is requested is when the collection plate goes around the congregation and she puts in a dollar or two, that about 0.001% of her annual salary.

[CommentsOpener]

Ex is correct. Scientology is a bait-and-switch scheme. People come to Scientology hoping for increased intelligence, improved personality, and help in dealing with personal problems. They don't come in to learn a system of beliefs based on science fiction stories, infestations of alien spirits and exploding volcanos. People deserve to know the content of the upper levels when they sign up.

[IceMetalPunk]

Does that make it any less of a religion? Again, if the motivations for joining are all that count, then every psychiatrist is a religious founder.

I do agree, though, that it's misleading; but then, aren't all religions on some level?

-IMP :) :)

[CommentsOpener]

This is not the only way Scientology is bait-and-switch. Bait-and-switch is also used by Scientology front groups. A school board isn't told that Applied Scholastics is Scientology. A judge isn't told that Narconon is Scientology. A youth group isn't told that Drug Free Marshals is Scientology. Front groups hide the name Scientology from people who deserve to know exactly what they are being asked to contribute to or endorse.

[exfalsoquodlibet]

Your argument is basically Scientologists believe in weird stuff, just like Christians, therefore they are a religion. It's not that easy.

No Scientologist i have ever asked became a Scientologist, because of some believe in a supernatural force. They joined, because Scientology promised them selfimprovement and cure of psychosomatic illnesses.

So the motivations for people to join Scientology compared with the motivation to join a religion like Christianity are very different.

[IceMetalPunk]

So what you're saying, then, is that the practices and beliefs don't make a religion, only the motivation? In that case, wouldn't every therapist be a leader or a religion, since people go to therapists for self-improvement is psychiatric treatment?

-IMP ;) :)

[exfalsoquodlibet]

To the contrary. That is one of the reasons why Scientology and any kind of self-help therapies are NOT religions. This is what i wanted to say.

Religions deal with some kind of metaphysical truth and the reason why people join a religion is, because they believe in this and not, because they want to improve themselves.

But no one joins Scientology, because they have some kind of belief in a higher, metaphysical truth that appeals to them. No one joins Sci, because of thetans or Xenu ;-)