@12bulkhead The reason was divine really, although these soldiers were unaware of it, they were part of God's plan to redeem some. The only way that men's sins can be forgiven is if Jesus took the punishement in their place and by this also imputing the sinless life of Christ to their account. By recognizing your sinfullness before God and that you can't be forgiven by any amount of works, believe that God ressurected Jesus from death, His righteousness can be can be credited to your account.
@morrij01 That's quite a Protestant atonement theology you've got there. "Imputing the sinless life of Christ" sounds uncomfortably like penal substitution.Righteousness "credited to your account" sounds unhappily like the monetary metaphors so common in the early Reformed tradition. There are, of course, other (and perhaps less problematic) models of Christian atonement available!
And - out of curiosity - do you beieve that the soldiers who crucified Christ had free will?
@demonliberal "uncomfortably like penal substitution"? What about it makes you uncomfortable? It may not be a full expression of Christ's sacrifice, but it cannot be denied without heresy. Scripture uses synonymous language.
@12bulkhead Lots of reasons. Christ was God, and men rebel against him. The soldiers were doing so because their sinful hearts desperately wanted to. The soldiers were also obeying their authorities. The authorities were also sinful and desperately wanted to kill him. But a very different reason is that God intended for good what men intended for evil; the saving of many lives. Christ was tortured, separated from the Father, and died because that is exactly what mankind deserved for his sin.
no contradiction--try READING--to make it quick for u....catholic means "universal".....lets STOP the bashing! Saw a man who said he was an athestist because of the way christians treated each other~in other words, few were living up to the words of JESUS,.so TRUE! May Christs love be with you, whoever you are. Really-READ-you got the Bible you have now from St. Jerome's translation-NOT king James!! READ-READ-you'll learn something!! We don't make up the scriptures, we live by the BIBLE!
@cobalt100 How can you make fun of Jesus' suffering and death? Would you mock a normal person dying such a brutal death? Then why do you make fun of Christ?
Don't you have anything better to do with your time than make rude comments on wonderful videos?
Jesus lived, the entire civilized world is a testament to the that though some men and the demons have tried to stamp him out. Judas betrayed Christ because that was prophesied centuries before as Christ came to Earth to die and then live so that whoever believes on Him shall be forgiven.
Some will believe, some will not. God has not forced anyone to believe. What you do with God is your choice, an eternal choice.
I Corithians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblo
Let's stop usuing U tube to BASH other people, unless that makes u happy....i prefer to care about people and help anyone in need, as our Lord instructed! I see this sort of thing over & over....go get ALL your FACTS straight....then decide where God wants you~listen to his VOICE! Use your BRAIN to decide if you are in the church that has withstood, even with her faults, the test of time~2,000 years.
We should all strive for prefection, not tearing one another down. ღ♱ღ Enjoy the songs!
The Roman Catholic Church, in its present manifestation, started in the 4th Century, not the 1st Century. I think there needs to be more unity amongst Christians but I do not believe the Roman Church is 2000 years old. The Church is 2000 years old but certainly not the hierarchy that is found in Rome.
PLEASE don't tell me that GOD ALMIGHTY put his only begotten son into an unclean woman! Won't u be ashamed when you face Jesus and say those things about his Mother! Everyone says they are RIGHT...fine~go your way. You must answer for all the "its true, cause my preacher said so" stuff. God called me OUT of that "way" years ago!! I love everyone, even "nuts"~and i do pray for them, as i contemplate on the life of my Lord each day. Hasn't the "gates of hell" broke your roots, over & over?
@shira101wv I am sorry if what I said offended you, but it is true!
What do you mean by an "unclean woman"? I do not think Mary was any worse than any other virgin of her time.
If Mary was virgin born and sinless, and her mom was virgin born and sinless, because only a virgin born person can be sinless, where did it all start? All of her ancestors must have been virgin born and sinless! She couldn't have been a decedent of Adam and Eve by that reasoning.
PLEASE, dear fellow human beings....use your heads! How old is your church~and which gentleman, or lady started your "branch" of religion? LOTS of things are not mentioned in the BIBLE, but that does not make them senseless. The rosary is completely bible based prayers to God! I can very well sink into contemplation saying my rosary and thinking on the life of my Lord. Please don't say i use "VAIN" repitions....nothing about my LORD is vain~if i say it a thousand times a day~I LOVE YOU LORD
I have a few questions. If this guy Jesus ever lived, where is his birth certificate? If Jesus did ascend into Heaven, wouldn't/shouldn't he be the first man in space? What was the Virgin Mary's last name? What are the last names of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John? Did the Corinthians ever write back? What was Lots wife's name? Is Joan of Ark Noah's wife?
@cobalt100 If this helps at all, Luke (the author of the Gospel of Luke, and also of Acts) is considered by historians - both religious and secular - as one of the most faithful (if not the most faithful) historians of his time. Jesus Christ's life is more documented than Alexander the Great's, and probably more than any other person of the time. Those who deny Him, do so only because of what His having come to earth implies.
@cobalt100 The ressurection was not merely into outer space. It was into heaven. It is a mystery. Your other questions are rather vague. Just because the Bible doesn't give you every detail about every person's name and life, doesn't reduce its credibility. 1 Corinthians was actually a response to a letter - from a church member named Chloe (1 Corinthians 1:11). I'm not really informed concerning whether they responded, but even the absence of a response is no argument against its credibility.
@cobalt100 I would assume that your question about Joan of Ark being Noah's wife is a joke. Otherwise, it is a shamefully uninformed question with no heed given to the assertions made by historians and Biblical apologists.“Today no competent scholar denies the historicity of Jesus.” - Bruce Metzger.
Feel free to visit this website for more information: why-jesus . com
@cobalt100 Look, Jesus certainly did live. When you meet Him face to face, you'll realize that your comment wasn't funny. I have somethings to tell you:
1.Christ is real.
2.Heaven's real.
3. Hell is real.
4. Everyone's sinful nature is real.
5. Christ's death on the the cross to save mankind is real.
6. The Person mentioned in #1 has the right to send you to place mentioned in #3 becaus of the thing mentioned in #4 unless you put your faith in #5, and then you will go to the place in #2.
@JesusIsMessiah101 You christians should be thankful that this guy, Judas turned in your savior, otherwise it is quite likely that there never would have been any believers of this purely fictional character.
@cobalt100 so...Judas was real, but Jesus fictional?
Really there's no point debating this. You'll find out sooner or later. Better sooner (here on earth) than later (before the jugdement seat). If you really want proof of Christ's reality, I challenge you to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.
I BELIEVE~i need no explanations thank you! I always have, i always will.....i am a bible believing, knee bowing, rosary saying catholic~FOREVER!! ღ♥ ALLELUIA!
@shira101wv You say that you are a Bible believer and that is great. I am confused, though, because I don't see anything in scripture about saying the rosary. Could you tell me where that matches up with scripture? Thanks
@shira101wv i dont really want to be "that guy" but caothlics dont follow the scripture perfectly the rosarys are never mentioned in the bible mary is not holy and i could go on but i dont want to get too harsh u should convert to a different religion such as an evangelical christian church
We should be careful about defining the Gospel in its narrow sense. It is NOT what God has done in you. It is NOT what you do for God. It is NOT repentance. It is NOT following Jesus. It is NOT giving your heart to Jesus.
The Gospel, in it's narrow sense, is the "Good News" of what Christ has done for His people. He lived a wholly perfect life, took upon himself the wrath that our sins deserve, and was raised because of our Justification. We are imputed Christ's righteousness through faith.
The crazy thing is the Gospel is so easy to understand. That Christ was born of a virgin, the Son of God, lived a sinless, perfect life, was delivered for our offenses and was raised from the dead the third day for our justification. How do we access God's forgiveness in Christ? Repent and follow Jesus Christ. Paul told us to hold to the simplicity in Christ. There is one tradition. The one that the Apostles taught. Learn that tradition, not the traditions of men.
@SamWiseGingy Wow, millions upon millions of people throughout history were not in their right mind? Astonishing! Not that sheer numbers of believers makes it right, just sayin'
@SamWiseGingy I get your point, all I'm saying is it seems pretty arrogant to dismiss millions of people as being "out of their minds" simply because YOU think so!
@SamWiseGingy No, it is not arrogant to be rational, but it is also not foolish to place your faith in He Who is the creator of logic and reason. Who gave you the freedom to not believe. But I hope you will set aside your anger, or what seems like it, and at least keep an open mind. Why not call out to Who you are sure is not there and say "Prove yourself! I dare you!" The worst that can happen is you feel foolish. But of course if in your heart you are absolutely convinced, you won't do it.
@SamWiseGingy I see evidence of His existence in the intelligence of design of the universe. But what it amounts to is this: for those who seek to know the truth the evidence is all around, but for those who have made their mind up they can find rationale for everything. Do you WANT to believe in a God or do you want to convince me there isn't one? If you are seeking I'll engage in further dialog. Otherwise, we're both wasting our time. By the way, why did you view this video?
When you see patterns you call them design. But even if the universe was designed you have no evidence that it was your god that did the designing.
Actually the only reason to believe anything is because it happens to be true. So what I want to believe is quite besides the point. Perhaps you believe as you will, but I prefer to have my beliefs founded on reason.
If you have reasons for your belief bring them on.
I viewed this video because I suspected that most Christians would not realize that song affirms the idea that your god was satisfied with a human sacrifice.
I think the comments on this video prove my suspicion correct.
@SamWiseGingy I should hope they would realize it, as that is the premise for Christianity; that God is a righteous, perfect God and we are sinful beings. He desires fellowship with us and wants us to be with Him in heaven yet heaven is not a good place but a sinless perfect place. Jesus took on mortal flesh and was sinless, so His death met the condition of an undeserving death/sacrifice.As for evidences, I will be getting back to you on that in a day or two.
The idea of an atoning sacrifice has no appeal to reason. The idea of a god that is pleased by human blood is repugnant to any reasoning mind. Unless you can show evidence for this belief then anyone who holds this belief is irrational.
@SamWiseGingy Christians look at it from the perspective that God did not have to make a way for us to be with Him. An all powerful God could simply have placed us here on earth and let things run their course. But because He loves us He sent His Son to become man, live among us and experience all we do, all our temptations, yet without sinning. Then He willingly gave His life for us. I understand your point of why was the blood even necessary. I don't know. But it wasn't just any human's blood
@SamWiseGingy No, that is missing the point - no other human being would have met the condition - only Christ. I can see why you have a problem with this, we are supposed to. We are supposed to be both horrified and grateful that Christ chose to be the sacrifice for our sins. If you don't believe Jesus was God made man then of course it seems more horrific. But if there is no God, and Jesus wasn't His Son, you can just pass it off as a sad delusional story that weirdos have made way too much of
@starshine428 Yeah it is a "sad delusional story that weirdos have made way too much of" unless you have some evidence to the contrary.
Begin by showing that killing someone actually brings someone else to life. Then show me how it is reasonable to believe in angels, heaven, hell, demons, trinities, and all the rest of that stuff.
@SamWiseGingy if you are truly interested in the factual evidence for Christ's resurrection then I would recommend you look into Josh Mcdowells books. He was, I believe an atheist or perhaps agnostic, but he began reading through the Bible to disprove it and what he found convinced him it was true. I don't think the facts bring you to fully understand Christ and his death and ressurection, but there are facts to indicate it is reasonable. His books focus on the factual evidence for Christ.
@SamWiseGingy if you read Acts you will find the writers of the New Testament were men who had witnessed an incredible man they knew, Jesus Christ, die and then they actually saw him again. It was as simple as that, they saw that he was alive again and had to go tell everyone. You could say they made it up, but there are historical records that tell of them being killed for their claim. Usually people would not allow themselves to be tortured and killed for something they knew was a lie.
No there are no historical records of the deaths of the apostles. There are Church traditions of the death of the apostles.
Josh Mcdowell arguments are IMO not substantial as they are written primarily for Christians so that they can pretend they have some intellectual grounds for believing. Most Christians IMO don't even understand Mcdowell's arguments and those arguments fall far short when it comes to justifying Christianity rationally.
Again all you have for the death of the apostles are Christian traditions. All religions have martyrs, including Mormonism. If I applied your "Usually people would not allow themselves to be tortured and killed for something they knew was a lie." to Joseph Smith I would be compelled to accept Mormonism.
@SamWiseGingy you are right, Mcdowell's arguments are not conclusive, they simply give some indication that belief in Christ is not without any historical argument. I would never throw them out there and think that answers all the questions. This is really too short of a format to actually give good rational arguments for either side, so we end up using arguments, that given our own pre-suppositions we believe are rock solid, but full of flaws. Hopefully you are having a good evening.
But you are pretending that you have other better arguments and you don't. Religion is about faith and faith is about certainty without reason. Believers think faith is a good thing and skeptics think faith is a bad thing. So after the argument is over, why do you believe?
I would not agree that faith is certainty without reason. Faith is about what you have trust in. Suppose you were going on vacation and you had a friend who said they could set you up with a condo in Florida. If you know this person and they have always done what they said you would have solid basis to believe that when you got the Florida the Condo would be there waiting even though you had never seen it. If they had failed you it would be silly to trust them.
@SamWiseGingy Think about people who were blind at birth? I doubt they have any means of comprehending what the concept of sight is, but any reasonable blind person believes that there is such a thing as sight. Every person who was born blind has to believe in the concept of sight by faith but to believe in sight is by far the most reasonable thing for them.
@SamWiseGingy Both these analogies explain why faith can be reasonable, but then the question is, is there any basis I have for assuming Christ’s existence such as a blind person has for believing in sight. I would say for me there is. I have seen Christ work in the lives of many people I know, I have seen him change my spirit and the way I think. I guess the reason I have faith in Christ is the same reason you have faith in your physical senses, you have tested them enough to find they work.
Most likely what you have is case of confirmation bias. Most likely you only remember the positive experiences with your faith community and you push aside the negative experiences.
I also have seen appreciated the advances of science and reason, which the conservative Christians are hostile to, especially when said science contradicts their faith.
@SamWiseGingy You say all dare give heed to their consciences, "You're a self-righteous bigot." You will then say to the scientist that approves of the murder of unborn infants, and to a philosopher that says that there is no moral difference between adultery/fornication and giving to the poor,"You're a great scientist." Wordly scientists are biased towards justifying their own wickedness.
@SamWiseGingy Furthermore, all people know what is right and wrong from birth. You know, just as all do, when you have done wrong. Conscience has alarmed you many a time, and testified to you that you deserve death. But you have acted contrary to that. You have acted contrary to reason. You have, furthermore, many times, commited acts that you have known to be wrong, and often not done what you have known to be right. It isn't some haphazard that has caused you to be disturbed when you have.
@JonathanMartinovici This universal sense of right and wrong confirms my view, not yours. Again morality is better explained by evolved social instincts than a divinity.
Now you want to lay a guilt trip on me, no thank you.
@SamWiseGingy I missed this comment, sorry. I fail to understand how you think morality even came into existence - let alone life itself. But to think that anything complex can come from something simpler is absurd. You would have to say that everything in existence has a social instinct (even the rocks, which miraculously became living things). The thing could never just create itself through haphazard.
@SamWiseGingy Do you really think that your self-deception, though you hide behind it while you're alive, will protect you from the One who will judge you according to what He has told you even through your conscience? I do not understand why people even make moral objections to Christianity, when they don't even believe in moral absolutes. But, of course, you will say that you do it in the interest of truth. But truth cannot have any absolute value to you anyway...it is absurd.
Here's what's absurd, your calling disbelief self deception. The evidence is that believers are the ones under a conscious delusion. Believers are the ones who have a fear of being punished for what they may or may not think. When you believe in a god that demands faith you will not be able to have a rational faith because for most fear trumps reason.
@SamWiseGingy Okay, you might be able to call the way I believed about 3 years ago a fear-driven self-deception. I was living in sin, and yet I 'believed' in Christ. A mere intellectual belief in the truths of the Bible is not faith as the Bible describes it. Nor is the faith of a Christian merely driven from a fear of hell. If the only thing that motivates someone to come to Christ is a fear of hell, that person is not a Christian, nor is his faith the faith described in the Bible.
See you were scared in belief, sucker! It doesn't matter if fear wasn't the only thing. Once fear is introduced into the equation reason is eliminated from the equation. Pascal's wager anyone?
@SamWiseGingy Again, if you do not believe that there is any absolute morality, then you are denying what you have known since you were born. You have known, since you were young, that it is wrong to disobey your parents, that it is wrong to look with lust, to lie, etc. Nonetheless, you never had to learn how to do these things. They came to you naturally and you sought out how to do them the more. Your whole being is bent against God's commandments. And you live in defiance of Him.
@JonathanMartinovici All these so called "moral absolutes," obey parents and the like are evolved social instincts, there is no need to invoke a divine to explain them. It is perfectly okay to "lust," why do you think your god gave you hands? As a matter of fact most morality comes to us "naturally" which explains how similar morals are when we survey cultures.
No I am not incomplete without your god and neither are you, but your pastor tells you that to nurture a dependence.
@SamWiseGingy Your moral obligations to those around you are so obvious to you that you need to go through huge mazes of reasoning to say they absolutely don't exist. If you say you don't have an obligation to a particular person, you reason, still, according to another moral argument. "Why should I?" or "He doesn't deserve my respect!" or "You can't dictate to me!" (for a moral reason). But you have no reason, if you don't believe there are absolutes, to hold these convictions or opinions.
@SamWiseGingy Firstly, you say that the Bible would be the worst place to find moral absolutes; but this is a moral statement in itself. You know what morality is, and you judge by what you know. If there is no such thing as absolute morality, then even relative morality is irrelevant, and you can't use it to judge another person's moral values; because yours are arbitrary - since, in your eyes, there is nothing that is a right or wrong moral foundation.
@JonathanMartinovici Yeah I make moral statements. No, they aren't based on revelation. It is perfectly legitimate to make moral statements based on reason. When compared to the morality of the Bible the moral statements based on reason actually are a lot more appealing to both reason and morality.
@SamWiseGingy If you say, "Whatever is best for everyone should be the basis." But this, again, is a moral statement. Even if you say it's just your own personal opinion, you must also say it has no value, because your moral values are (according to Relativism) no better than anyone else's.
But you mentioned slavery, also. The Bible never explicitly condemns or endorses it. Slavery was a part of civil society, and there was a way in which God's people were to behave towards or as slaves.
Apart from genocide what would be a greater moral issue than slavery? The point is the Bible gets the slavery question wrong, and come to think of it gets the genocide question wrong too.
Humans are social animals and we can use our reason and instincts to determine what is beneficial to humanity. Actually that's what believers do when they don't stone witches or hold slaves or accept homosexual as equals in society. They put their reason above revelation. So reason works.
@SamWiseGingy You didn't respond to my argument. I wasn't saying you can't make a moral statement. I was saying that if you're not going to believe that moral absolutes exist, then your moral values are completely arbitrary. Moral relativism can't allow you to even use reason to say that something is really right or wrong. You can only say "In my opinion." And your opinion is based on nothing legitimate at all.
@SamWiseGingy Just for your information, I don't speak in favour of homosexuality. It is a sin, just like lying, and murder, and adultery. It is totally against nature. It is a sin against God's plan for marriage. But that's another issue.
@SamWiseGingy I'm not sure what you mean by bringing someone else to life. The Bible speaks about eternal life - in the hereafter - not physical rising from the dead here on earth. You want me to PROVE it. I think you have to start with believing in the existence of God. I find it impossible NOT to believe in God with our existence as intelligent reasoning human beings and the complexity of nature and the universe. I believe you said you just see design. Ok, then where, who is the designer?
@SamWiseGingy To say that something as intricate as a snowflake is random, "just happened" seems absurd to me, especially from someone as intelligent as you are. The computer you are on, the videos you're watching, you know they didn't just happen. Someone put together your computer, someone else posted these videos. Heck, i don't even know HOW to make a video but I know it didn't just land on the internet - ALSO not a random event! As for whose God made it? He is THE God -I don't own Him
@SamWiseGingy I am trying to answer your arguments. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for from me, especially in this forum with limited words. Be specific and I'll try to answer it. The reason your motive matters is this: if you are truly seeking I will do my best to help you find what you're looking for. You can't possibly destroy my faith built up over a road of almost 40 years of trials and blessings, prayers answered. There is nothing -NOTHING you could say to me that would shake it.
@SamWiseGingy God has come into the world, and proven Himself over and over again - He performed such things as only the true God could perform. He pronounced the condemnation on those who did not believe, and were asking for yet another sign; that they would not believe even if He raised someone from the dead.
Reading some of the less charitable comments here certainly makes it obvious just how much we all need a savior. Maybe we all need to study Ephesians 4:2-6 a little more carefully!
As a Reformed Protestant Christian, I can honestly say that I do not hate Catholics, and I firmly believe that they should not be hated by the world--and especially by other Christians.
I may disagree with them on a few or even many things as far as doctrine and theology goes, but overall I consider them to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
As a Catholic person myself, may I compliment you on your beautiful greeting. I wish there were more people like you, Catholics included, who had your loving attitude. Happy Easter!
I disagree with Roman Catholics on the Gospel. I too am Reformed which means that when I get to the Judgment I would be an absolute fool to present my worthless works as merit in the sight of God. I have never done one good thing, (truly good), in my entire life. I will, therefore, trust Christ and his righteousness. If I perish, I will perish trusting in Christ's merit and not my own. The whole message of the Gospel is that we are evil and in desperate need of Christ.
I do not hate Catholics, (Christ commands us to love our enemies), but I just think Christians need to remember Paul's warning that if any man preaches any other Gospel let him be anathema. According to Paul, doctrine is very important. I know in a world where truth really doesnt matter anymore, this may seem strict to a lot of people, but right doctrine is important.
Paul Simon often borrows music from classical sources. This was written by a man that I can't remember the name of, but the arrangement (edits) were done by Bach. Much Christian music has been written by Bach. Paul Simon just has good taste in music, although I have not heard him sing anything with this tune. What is the name of the song you are referring to that Simon sang?
i knew that this song was wrote before pauls simon born..i mean...why nobody tell this...why nobody in world don't tell nothing to paul simon..some journalist.someone......he know????...boh.....ty
the music for this song goes way back before Paul Simon was born, so odds are it didnt steal from American Tune. Research the song on Wikipedia for a quick check.
This beautiful worship music was penned by Bernard of Clairvoux in 1157 or close to that date. The truth that is written and sung is beyond or mere divisions that are man made and not from God. I love this song and the man Bernard of Clairvoux. He has written some great books on the faith.
Sometimes, when the tire is flat, rather than complain about who drove or road conditions or why me or who was at fault, maybe it is just time to get out and change the flat and get back on the road and head for the goal. Maybe being just a Christian is enough? and maybe we can pick up a few stragglers on the way too?
@huntingods-No one should be bashing religions for when Christ returns it will not be for a religion but for prepared people.People who have received Jesus as Lord savior & King ,Who acknowledges Almighty God as the one true God,who live lives pleasing holy & acceptable in His sight.The people you mentioned,popes they too have to stand before almighty God.If they did not live for God then,but if they did praise God.God is the only perfect one & we have to look to Him only through His son Jesus
How is it, that every time religion is mentioned, someone bashes the Catholic Church? morrij01 -- what of St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Cyril of Jerusalem, St Athanasius, St Appollonius, St Cecilia, St Cyprian, St Veronica, St Justin Martyr? The last six died in the early 300s or earlier (St Justin Martyr lived in the 100s). This is just a very small number. What of the 29 popes before 305ad?
@huntinggods It is not that someone is bashing anyone, to speak the Truth does require courage and the Holy Spirit will lead anyone who seeks God to Truth in Doctrine and Conduct. It is known that the Catholic Church have persecuted millions of Christians on questions on Doctrines, on Truths that the Bible have always taught but have been supressed by the Church of Rome. Many Saints do exist within the church but the system has proven what it's source is, that it is not of God.
@Mekelsior I think you are stuggling with the nature of the Catholic Church. "IT has saints, and yet look at many of them". Have you found an answer yet?
@huntinggods They cannot prove 29 popes before 305AD, it's pure invention of the catholics, they have no document to support it or historical facts to support it, simply because there was none. Read the Bible carefully and you'll find that any that is saved is a saint wheter alive or dead, no where in the Bible is the whole porcess of catholic sainthood desceribed. If you don't stick to what the Bible says you can come up with all sorts of heresies and that what the roman catholics have done.
@morrij01 So I guess their writings are made-up too. What you choose to believe is up to you, I of all people cannot change that. Is it not odd, however, that some Protestants talk of the Bible as if it were around, completed, and intact for 2000 years? The Church came before the Bible - the Bible was not compiled until the 4th or 5th century. Why would I trust, then, a library compiled by heretics, as you seem to imply that they are? You may wish to read Irenaeus, a pupil of John. Pax.
@huntinggods The Bible was writting in the first century, it was compiled later to get rid of all the heretical texts that found their way with the real ones, but it was read and commented on well before the 4th century. But catholic theology was written much much later by Thomas of Aquinus made up from the roman cults with quasi-jewish ceremonies and ever adding and changing traditions. Sure they like the Bible when it suits them, but when it doesn't, the Bible takes second stage to traditions.
@morrij01 I am certain the Church Fathers would disagree with you :). St. Thomas Aquinas did not write Catholic theology, in fact much of his ideas were stated previously in St. Augustine's writing. Aquinas merely presented such ideas in terms of philosophy. St. Augustine himself took his ideology from St. Ambrose, who took his ideology from his predecessors on down the line. I do not disagree with you on your first two and a half lines of your response, however. Pax tecum.
The Roman Catholic Church has only itself to blame when people bash it. If the Roman Catholic Church had carried the banner of Christ and followed Christ's teachings, people would find it very difficult to bash this institution that is responsible for untold suffering throughout its existence.
@BanditCalvinist So, let me follow your logic here. If you "carry the banner of Christ" the world will like you? Hmm...
"If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you. If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (Jn 15:18-19).
The world should hate the Catholic Church for the right reason: For love of Christ. The world hates the Catholic Church because no institution has inflicted more pain and suffering on so many people than this institution. Do you know how hard it is to witness for Christ when people are taught in history class that "Christians" are responsible for the Dark Ages? If a person chooses to be Catholic that's their decision but Catholics should at least come to grips with their history.
@BanditCalvinist Right. Because there is no chance whatsoever that you were taught in a biased fashion. I'll be honest when I say this: History led me to the Church, Philosophy convinced me, Scripture sealed me. Calvin's followers are no less blood-stained than Peter's. No organization, no person, is innocent. We all deserve death. But the objective facts are on Rome's side. I will stand with Rome; I will stand with Christ.
@huntinggods I don't know the answer to your question, but I have a question that is sort of the opposite. Has anyone ever noticed that in tv shows or movies when they want to show a clergyman they are often priests? I am not a Catholic and don't object to Catholics being shown sometimes, but doesn't Hollywood know there are other denominations? And actually it seems to me that whenever they want to make Christians look bad they make the character a southerner (accent) and faith healer type.
@starshine428 Interesting question. I have found several examples of shows where this is not the case. I think the primary reason for the entertainment media to use clergy dressed in Roman garb (there are other groups, mostly European, who use the Catholic clerical uniform) is because it is distinct from street clothes. At least, that is what I've always assumed (I was raised Southern Baptist, btw). It's simply easier to see someone in priest garb and think "clergy" than any other outfit.
@starshine428 I think, as a continuation of my last post, that Catholic imagery is often targeted simply because Catholicism is the largest group and it is easily identifiable. If the entertainment media wants to attack Christianity, they are going to go for the biggest target. Sometimes it is critical to the plot (as in Doubt), but at other times it is simply "coincidence." I have seen so much disparaging of Christianity recently, that I tend to not watch TV or go to movies anymore.
@huntinggods Because of fear and ignorance mostly my friend. Especially during the Middle Ages when The Church abused their powers to obtain money and more power. There are many paralells in the early church times and the power hungry monarchs (aka politicians). Keep Henry The Eighth in Mind. Look at what Crowmwell did "in the name of Christianity" as well as John Knox and so many others I won't list now. Just to promote thier causes!
@huntinggods Catholicism, today's version, did not really exist until the 7th century. There were no popes prior to that and I don't believe an actual pope was put in place until, at least, the 8th century. Catholicism is a religion, which is man made. Most of the people you mentioned followed the teachings of scripture directly. Churches, before then, did not hold authority over the word of God, rather, were servants of it. The Catholic church makes its authority equal with scripture.
@Mcstroke57 Thanks Mcstroke. I was saved out of the Catholic church. If there is a church practice that implies greater holiness, but doesn't line up with scripture, then it doesn't glorify God, but man. I live my life solely by the teaching of scripture. Even my pastor must be measured by the word of God. Scripture is the ultimate authority, not a man and not a church!
@huntinggods I believe that there are many within the Roman Catholic Church who are saved. Nonetheless, if you read Augustine's 'City of God', you will realise that even he fights against the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is the city of God. There have been many great Christians who lived and died Roman Catholics. The problem is that they claim that 'there is no salvation outside the holy roman church.'
@huntinggods Someone can be in the Roman Church, and yet be outside Christ. Yea, if they will trust in Christ alone, if they will forsake the world and follow Him, if Christ will make them new creatures, they will be saved. But let a man not believe in Christ, a man can do penances, indulgences - yea, do everything the priest tells them to do - even let the priest administer what he calls 'last rites'; the man will be damned.
@huntinggods "he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36) "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5) The pope is no mediator between God and man; nor is Mary, nor any apostle or prophet or saint. The apostle Paul himself wrote to the Galatians, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8)
@JonathanMartinovici I will make my response in only one post. I have grown weary of this discussion. Do you think that I believe that a Catholic cannot be damned? The visionary saints have said that those saved are few, even among Catholics! Scripture says this. My position is simply that the simplest path to Christ is through the Church - we have the opportunity to receive Him each Mass. I thank you for your responses, but these conversations are slowing my walk with Him. Pax tecum.
Long live the Word and it's supernal Author, and to the Light that gives clarity and freedom. Our darkest times and woes cannot compare to the promises that shine forth hope and life from the place of an Arimathean's generosity and another's temporary state of repose.
This is so beautiful. I actually am more familair with this tune as Paul Simon's 'American Tune' but I knew it was a sacred song as well. It is so beatiful and beautifully sung here.
To be honest, I don't see any reason why those guys tortured and killed Jesus. i apologise if I may have used incorrect terminology.
12bulkhead 3 months ago
@12bulkhead The reason was divine really, although these soldiers were unaware of it, they were part of God's plan to redeem some. The only way that men's sins can be forgiven is if Jesus took the punishement in their place and by this also imputing the sinless life of Christ to their account. By recognizing your sinfullness before God and that you can't be forgiven by any amount of works, believe that God ressurected Jesus from death, His righteousness can be can be credited to your account.
morrij01 3 months ago in playlist Fernando Ortega
@morrij01 That's quite a Protestant atonement theology you've got there. "Imputing the sinless life of Christ" sounds uncomfortably like penal substitution.Righteousness "credited to your account" sounds unhappily like the monetary metaphors so common in the early Reformed tradition. There are, of course, other (and perhaps less problematic) models of Christian atonement available!
And - out of curiosity - do you beieve that the soldiers who crucified Christ had free will?
demonliberal 3 months ago
@demonliberal "uncomfortably like penal substitution"? What about it makes you uncomfortable? It may not be a full expression of Christ's sacrifice, but it cannot be denied without heresy. Scripture uses synonymous language.
LeetVajda 2 months ago in playlist Xtian
@12bulkhead Lots of reasons. Christ was God, and men rebel against him. The soldiers were doing so because their sinful hearts desperately wanted to. The soldiers were also obeying their authorities. The authorities were also sinful and desperately wanted to kill him. But a very different reason is that God intended for good what men intended for evil; the saving of many lives. Christ was tortured, separated from the Father, and died because that is exactly what mankind deserved for his sin.
LeetVajda 2 months ago in playlist Xtian
no contradiction--try READING--to make it quick for u....catholic means "universal".....lets STOP the bashing! Saw a man who said he was an athestist because of the way christians treated each other~in other words, few were living up to the words of JESUS,.so TRUE! May Christs love be with you, whoever you are. Really-READ-you got the Bible you have now from St. Jerome's translation-NOT king James!! READ-READ-you'll learn something!! We don't make up the scriptures, we live by the BIBLE!
shira101wv 4 months ago 3
This is a beautiful version of this song.
blossom246810 4 months ago
Hi ffhurray. Beautiful arrangement of this song. I don't suppose you have the piano music or guitar chords for this particular arrangement, do you?
DefenderOfTheLarder 5 months ago
" Hey Jesus, you drop that cross one more time and you are out of the parade."
cobalt100 6 months ago
@cobalt100 How can you make fun of Jesus' suffering and death? Would you mock a normal person dying such a brutal death? Then why do you make fun of Christ?
Don't you have anything better to do with your time than make rude comments on wonderful videos?
JesusIsMessiah101 6 months ago
Jesus lived, the entire civilized world is a testament to the that though some men and the demons have tried to stamp him out. Judas betrayed Christ because that was prophesied centuries before as Christ came to Earth to die and then live so that whoever believes on Him shall be forgiven.
Some will believe, some will not. God has not forced anyone to believe. What you do with God is your choice, an eternal choice.
I Corithians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblo
mahatmt 6 months ago
Let's stop usuing U tube to BASH other people, unless that makes u happy....i prefer to care about people and help anyone in need, as our Lord instructed! I see this sort of thing over & over....go get ALL your FACTS straight....then decide where God wants you~listen to his VOICE! Use your BRAIN to decide if you are in the church that has withstood, even with her faults, the test of time~2,000 years.
We should all strive for prefection, not tearing one another down. ღ♱ღ Enjoy the songs!
shira101wv 6 months ago 8
@shira101wv
The Roman Catholic Church, in its present manifestation, started in the 4th Century, not the 1st Century. I think there needs to be more unity amongst Christians but I do not believe the Roman Church is 2000 years old. The Church is 2000 years old but certainly not the hierarchy that is found in Rome.
BanditCalvinist 1 month ago
PLEASE don't tell me that GOD ALMIGHTY put his only begotten son into an unclean woman! Won't u be ashamed when you face Jesus and say those things about his Mother! Everyone says they are RIGHT...fine~go your way. You must answer for all the "its true, cause my preacher said so" stuff. God called me OUT of that "way" years ago!! I love everyone, even "nuts"~and i do pray for them, as i contemplate on the life of my Lord each day. Hasn't the "gates of hell" broke your roots, over & over?
shira101wv 6 months ago
@shira101wv I am sorry if what I said offended you, but it is true!
What do you mean by an "unclean woman"? I do not think Mary was any worse than any other virgin of her time.
If Mary was virgin born and sinless, and her mom was virgin born and sinless, because only a virgin born person can be sinless, where did it all start? All of her ancestors must have been virgin born and sinless! She couldn't have been a decedent of Adam and Eve by that reasoning.
JesusIsMessiah101 6 months ago
PLEASE, dear fellow human beings....use your heads! How old is your church~and which gentleman, or lady started your "branch" of religion? LOTS of things are not mentioned in the BIBLE, but that does not make them senseless. The rosary is completely bible based prayers to God! I can very well sink into contemplation saying my rosary and thinking on the life of my Lord. Please don't say i use "VAIN" repitions....nothing about my LORD is vain~if i say it a thousand times a day~I LOVE YOU LORD
shira101wv 6 months ago 4
I have a few questions. If this guy Jesus ever lived, where is his birth certificate? If Jesus did ascend into Heaven, wouldn't/shouldn't he be the first man in space? What was the Virgin Mary's last name? What are the last names of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John? Did the Corinthians ever write back? What was Lots wife's name? Is Joan of Ark Noah's wife?
cobalt100 7 months ago
@cobalt100 If this helps at all, Luke (the author of the Gospel of Luke, and also of Acts) is considered by historians - both religious and secular - as one of the most faithful (if not the most faithful) historians of his time. Jesus Christ's life is more documented than Alexander the Great's, and probably more than any other person of the time. Those who deny Him, do so only because of what His having come to earth implies.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@cobalt100 The ressurection was not merely into outer space. It was into heaven. It is a mystery. Your other questions are rather vague. Just because the Bible doesn't give you every detail about every person's name and life, doesn't reduce its credibility. 1 Corinthians was actually a response to a letter - from a church member named Chloe (1 Corinthians 1:11). I'm not really informed concerning whether they responded, but even the absence of a response is no argument against its credibility.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@cobalt100 I would assume that your question about Joan of Ark being Noah's wife is a joke. Otherwise, it is a shamefully uninformed question with no heed given to the assertions made by historians and Biblical apologists.“Today no competent scholar denies the historicity of Jesus.” - Bruce Metzger.
Feel free to visit this website for more information: why-jesus . com
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@cobalt100 Look, Jesus certainly did live. When you meet Him face to face, you'll realize that your comment wasn't funny. I have somethings to tell you:
1.Christ is real.
2.Heaven's real.
3. Hell is real.
4. Everyone's sinful nature is real.
5. Christ's death on the the cross to save mankind is real.
6. The Person mentioned in #1 has the right to send you to place mentioned in #3 becaus of the thing mentioned in #4 unless you put your faith in #5, and then you will go to the place in #2.
JesusIsMessiah101 6 months ago 2
@JesusIsMessiah101 You christians should be thankful that this guy, Judas turned in your savior, otherwise it is quite likely that there never would have been any believers of this purely fictional character.
cobalt100 6 months ago
@cobalt100 so...Judas was real, but Jesus fictional?
Really there's no point debating this. You'll find out sooner or later. Better sooner (here on earth) than later (before the jugdement seat). If you really want proof of Christ's reality, I challenge you to read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.
JesusIsMessiah101 6 months ago
I BELIEVE~i need no explanations thank you! I always have, i always will.....i am a bible believing, knee bowing, rosary saying catholic~FOREVER!! ღ♥ ALLELUIA!
shira101wv 7 months ago 14
@shira101wv You say that you are a Bible believer and that is great. I am confused, though, because I don't see anything in scripture about saying the rosary. Could you tell me where that matches up with scripture? Thanks
AlltoChrist36 7 months ago
@shira101wv Me too! If I have to, I'll get down on my knees and blow the pope.
cobalt100 7 months ago
@shira101wv i dont really want to be "that guy" but caothlics dont follow the scripture perfectly the rosarys are never mentioned in the bible mary is not holy and i could go on but i dont want to get too harsh u should convert to a different religion such as an evangelical christian church
memaster4 7 months ago
@shira101wv Where in the Bible does it tell you to say a rosary?
Do you believe the Bible? Even where it says"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do,"? (Matthew 6:7)
JesusIsMessiah101 6 months ago
@shira101wv Bible believing and "catholic" is quite a contradiction...
Liberty1611 4 months ago
Jesus in the Passion of the Christ is like a good guy in a western whose six shooter never runs out of bullets. Jesus never runs out of blood.
SamWiseGingy 9 months ago
We should be careful about defining the Gospel in its narrow sense. It is NOT what God has done in you. It is NOT what you do for God. It is NOT repentance. It is NOT following Jesus. It is NOT giving your heart to Jesus.
The Gospel, in it's narrow sense, is the "Good News" of what Christ has done for His people. He lived a wholly perfect life, took upon himself the wrath that our sins deserve, and was raised because of our Justification. We are imputed Christ's righteousness through faith.
kamaujackson811 9 months ago 3
@kamaujackson811
That's true. It isnt about man, it is about Christ and what he did.
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
The crazy thing is the Gospel is so easy to understand. That Christ was born of a virgin, the Son of God, lived a sinless, perfect life, was delivered for our offenses and was raised from the dead the third day for our justification. How do we access God's forgiveness in Christ? Repent and follow Jesus Christ. Paul told us to hold to the simplicity in Christ. There is one tradition. The one that the Apostles taught. Learn that tradition, not the traditions of men.
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
@BanditCalvinist
Crazy is right. No person in their right mind would believe this.
SamWiseGingy 9 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Wow, millions upon millions of people throughout history were not in their right mind? Astonishing! Not that sheer numbers of believers makes it right, just sayin'
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428 There are billions and billions of Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists too. So what's your point?
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I get your point, all I'm saying is it seems pretty arrogant to dismiss millions of people as being "out of their minds" simply because YOU think so!
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428
No it's not arrogant to be rational.
No it's not rational to believe that a god became a man.
No it's not rational to believe that killing that man would do anything good for anybody.
The so called traditions of god are nothing but the musings of men and you no evidence to the contrary.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy No, it is not arrogant to be rational, but it is also not foolish to place your faith in He Who is the creator of logic and reason. Who gave you the freedom to not believe. But I hope you will set aside your anger, or what seems like it, and at least keep an open mind. Why not call out to Who you are sure is not there and say "Prove yourself! I dare you!" The worst that can happen is you feel foolish. But of course if in your heart you are absolutely convinced, you won't do it.
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428
If your god is there he has had an infinite number of opportunities to prove himself.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I see evidence of His existence in the intelligence of design of the universe. But what it amounts to is this: for those who seek to know the truth the evidence is all around, but for those who have made their mind up they can find rationale for everything. Do you WANT to believe in a God or do you want to convince me there isn't one? If you are seeking I'll engage in further dialog. Otherwise, we're both wasting our time. By the way, why did you view this video?
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428
When you see patterns you call them design. But even if the universe was designed you have no evidence that it was your god that did the designing.
Actually the only reason to believe anything is because it happens to be true. So what I want to believe is quite besides the point. Perhaps you believe as you will, but I prefer to have my beliefs founded on reason.
If you have reasons for your belief bring them on.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy what reason shows that there is no God?
Kennye12345 8 months ago
@starshine428
I viewed this video because I suspected that most Christians would not realize that song affirms the idea that your god was satisfied with a human sacrifice.
I think the comments on this video prove my suspicion correct.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I should hope they would realize it, as that is the premise for Christianity; that God is a righteous, perfect God and we are sinful beings. He desires fellowship with us and wants us to be with Him in heaven yet heaven is not a good place but a sinless perfect place. Jesus took on mortal flesh and was sinless, so His death met the condition of an undeserving death/sacrifice.As for evidences, I will be getting back to you on that in a day or two.
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428
The idea of an atoning sacrifice has no appeal to reason. The idea of a god that is pleased by human blood is repugnant to any reasoning mind. Unless you can show evidence for this belief then anyone who holds this belief is irrational.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Christians look at it from the perspective that God did not have to make a way for us to be with Him. An all powerful God could simply have placed us here on earth and let things run their course. But because He loves us He sent His Son to become man, live among us and experience all we do, all our temptations, yet without sinning. Then He willingly gave His life for us. I understand your point of why was the blood even necessary. I don't know. But it wasn't just any human's blood
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428
The point is was human blood. Your god was pleased with a human sacrifice.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy No, that is missing the point - no other human being would have met the condition - only Christ. I can see why you have a problem with this, we are supposed to. We are supposed to be both horrified and grateful that Christ chose to be the sacrifice for our sins. If you don't believe Jesus was God made man then of course it seems more horrific. But if there is no God, and Jesus wasn't His Son, you can just pass it off as a sad delusional story that weirdos have made way too much of
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428 Yeah it is a "sad delusional story that weirdos have made way too much of" unless you have some evidence to the contrary.
Begin by showing that killing someone actually brings someone else to life. Then show me how it is reasonable to believe in angels, heaven, hell, demons, trinities, and all the rest of that stuff.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy if you are truly interested in the factual evidence for Christ's resurrection then I would recommend you look into Josh Mcdowells books. He was, I believe an atheist or perhaps agnostic, but he began reading through the Bible to disprove it and what he found convinced him it was true. I don't think the facts bring you to fully understand Christ and his death and ressurection, but there are facts to indicate it is reasonable. His books focus on the factual evidence for Christ.
nattyisaac 8 months ago
@nattyisaac You are correct and I was going to try and find my copies to reply to SamWise
starshine428 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy if you read Acts you will find the writers of the New Testament were men who had witnessed an incredible man they knew, Jesus Christ, die and then they actually saw him again. It was as simple as that, they saw that he was alive again and had to go tell everyone. You could say they made it up, but there are historical records that tell of them being killed for their claim. Usually people would not allow themselves to be tortured and killed for something they knew was a lie.
nattyisaac 8 months ago
@nattyisaac
No there are no historical records of the deaths of the apostles. There are Church traditions of the death of the apostles.
Josh Mcdowell arguments are IMO not substantial as they are written primarily for Christians so that they can pretend they have some intellectual grounds for believing. Most Christians IMO don't even understand Mcdowell's arguments and those arguments fall far short when it comes to justifying Christianity rationally.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@nattyisaac
Again all you have for the death of the apostles are Christian traditions. All religions have martyrs, including Mormonism. If I applied your "Usually people would not allow themselves to be tortured and killed for something they knew was a lie." to Joseph Smith I would be compelled to accept Mormonism.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy you are right, Mcdowell's arguments are not conclusive, they simply give some indication that belief in Christ is not without any historical argument. I would never throw them out there and think that answers all the questions. This is really too short of a format to actually give good rational arguments for either side, so we end up using arguments, that given our own pre-suppositions we believe are rock solid, but full of flaws. Hopefully you are having a good evening.
nattyisaac 8 months ago
@nattyisaac
But you are pretending that you have other better arguments and you don't. Religion is about faith and faith is about certainty without reason. Believers think faith is a good thing and skeptics think faith is a bad thing. So after the argument is over, why do you believe?
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
I would not agree that faith is certainty without reason. Faith is about what you have trust in. Suppose you were going on vacation and you had a friend who said they could set you up with a condo in Florida. If you know this person and they have always done what they said you would have solid basis to believe that when you got the Florida the Condo would be there waiting even though you had never seen it. If they had failed you it would be silly to trust them.
nattyisaac 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Think about people who were blind at birth? I doubt they have any means of comprehending what the concept of sight is, but any reasonable blind person believes that there is such a thing as sight. Every person who was born blind has to believe in the concept of sight by faith but to believe in sight is by far the most reasonable thing for them.
nattyisaac 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Both these analogies explain why faith can be reasonable, but then the question is, is there any basis I have for assuming Christ’s existence such as a blind person has for believing in sight. I would say for me there is. I have seen Christ work in the lives of many people I know, I have seen him change my spirit and the way I think. I guess the reason I have faith in Christ is the same reason you have faith in your physical senses, you have tested them enough to find they work.
nattyisaac 8 months ago
@nattyisaac
Most likely what you have is case of confirmation bias. Most likely you only remember the positive experiences with your faith community and you push aside the negative experiences.
I also have seen appreciated the advances of science and reason, which the conservative Christians are hostile to, especially when said science contradicts their faith.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy You say all dare give heed to their consciences, "You're a self-righteous bigot." You will then say to the scientist that approves of the murder of unborn infants, and to a philosopher that says that there is no moral difference between adultery/fornication and giving to the poor,"You're a great scientist." Wordly scientists are biased towards justifying their own wickedness.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Furthermore, all people know what is right and wrong from birth. You know, just as all do, when you have done wrong. Conscience has alarmed you many a time, and testified to you that you deserve death. But you have acted contrary to that. You have acted contrary to reason. You have, furthermore, many times, commited acts that you have known to be wrong, and often not done what you have known to be right. It isn't some haphazard that has caused you to be disturbed when you have.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici This universal sense of right and wrong confirms my view, not yours. Again morality is better explained by evolved social instincts than a divinity.
Now you want to lay a guilt trip on me, no thank you.
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I missed this comment, sorry. I fail to understand how you think morality even came into existence - let alone life itself. But to think that anything complex can come from something simpler is absurd. You would have to say that everything in existence has a social instinct (even the rocks, which miraculously became living things). The thing could never just create itself through haphazard.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Do you really think that your self-deception, though you hide behind it while you're alive, will protect you from the One who will judge you according to what He has told you even through your conscience? I do not understand why people even make moral objections to Christianity, when they don't even believe in moral absolutes. But, of course, you will say that you do it in the interest of truth. But truth cannot have any absolute value to you anyway...it is absurd.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici
Here's what's absurd, your calling disbelief self deception. The evidence is that believers are the ones under a conscious delusion. Believers are the ones who have a fear of being punished for what they may or may not think. When you believe in a god that demands faith you will not be able to have a rational faith because for most fear trumps reason.
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Okay, you might be able to call the way I believed about 3 years ago a fear-driven self-deception. I was living in sin, and yet I 'believed' in Christ. A mere intellectual belief in the truths of the Bible is not faith as the Bible describes it. Nor is the faith of a Christian merely driven from a fear of hell. If the only thing that motivates someone to come to Christ is a fear of hell, that person is not a Christian, nor is his faith the faith described in the Bible.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici
See you were scared in belief, sucker! It doesn't matter if fear wasn't the only thing. Once fear is introduced into the equation reason is eliminated from the equation. Pascal's wager anyone?
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Again, if you do not believe that there is any absolute morality, then you are denying what you have known since you were born. You have known, since you were young, that it is wrong to disobey your parents, that it is wrong to look with lust, to lie, etc. Nonetheless, you never had to learn how to do these things. They came to you naturally and you sought out how to do them the more. Your whole being is bent against God's commandments. And you live in defiance of Him.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici All these so called "moral absolutes," obey parents and the like are evolved social instincts, there is no need to invoke a divine to explain them. It is perfectly okay to "lust," why do you think your god gave you hands? As a matter of fact most morality comes to us "naturally" which explains how similar morals are when we survey cultures.
No I am not incomplete without your god and neither are you, but your pastor tells you that to nurture a dependence.
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Your moral obligations to those around you are so obvious to you that you need to go through huge mazes of reasoning to say they absolutely don't exist. If you say you don't have an obligation to a particular person, you reason, still, according to another moral argument. "Why should I?" or "He doesn't deserve my respect!" or "You can't dictate to me!" (for a moral reason). But you have no reason, if you don't believe there are absolutes, to hold these convictions or opinions.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici If there is such a thing as "moral absolutes" the Bible would be the worst place to find them! The Bible sanctioned slavery.
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Firstly, you say that the Bible would be the worst place to find moral absolutes; but this is a moral statement in itself. You know what morality is, and you judge by what you know. If there is no such thing as absolute morality, then even relative morality is irrelevant, and you can't use it to judge another person's moral values; because yours are arbitrary - since, in your eyes, there is nothing that is a right or wrong moral foundation.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici Yeah I make moral statements. No, they aren't based on revelation. It is perfectly legitimate to make moral statements based on reason. When compared to the morality of the Bible the moral statements based on reason actually are a lot more appealing to both reason and morality.
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy If you say, "Whatever is best for everyone should be the basis." But this, again, is a moral statement. Even if you say it's just your own personal opinion, you must also say it has no value, because your moral values are (according to Relativism) no better than anyone else's.
But you mentioned slavery, also. The Bible never explicitly condemns or endorses it. Slavery was a part of civil society, and there was a way in which God's people were to behave towards or as slaves.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici
Apart from genocide what would be a greater moral issue than slavery? The point is the Bible gets the slavery question wrong, and come to think of it gets the genocide question wrong too.
Humans are social animals and we can use our reason and instincts to determine what is beneficial to humanity. Actually that's what believers do when they don't stone witches or hold slaves or accept homosexual as equals in society. They put their reason above revelation. So reason works.
SamWiseGingy 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy You didn't respond to my argument. I wasn't saying you can't make a moral statement. I was saying that if you're not going to believe that moral absolutes exist, then your moral values are completely arbitrary. Moral relativism can't allow you to even use reason to say that something is really right or wrong. You can only say "In my opinion." And your opinion is based on nothing legitimate at all.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Just for your information, I don't speak in favour of homosexuality. It is a sin, just like lying, and murder, and adultery. It is totally against nature. It is a sin against God's plan for marriage. But that's another issue.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I'm not sure what you mean by bringing someone else to life. The Bible speaks about eternal life - in the hereafter - not physical rising from the dead here on earth. You want me to PROVE it. I think you have to start with believing in the existence of God. I find it impossible NOT to believe in God with our existence as intelligent reasoning human beings and the complexity of nature and the universe. I believe you said you just see design. Ok, then where, who is the designer?
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428
I said I see patterns. There are patterns in snow flakes. But that doesn't mean snow flakes were designed.
Even I grant for conversation sake that there was designer, how do you know your god was that designer?
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy To say that something as intricate as a snowflake is random, "just happened" seems absurd to me, especially from someone as intelligent as you are. The computer you are on, the videos you're watching, you know they didn't just happen. Someone put together your computer, someone else posted these videos. Heck, i don't even know HOW to make a video but I know it didn't just land on the internet - ALSO not a random event! As for whose God made it? He is THE God -I don't own Him
starshine428 8 months ago
I still can't decide if you are truly seeking to know the truth, to just criticize or just enjoy an intellectual discussion
starshine428 8 months ago
@starshine428 What difference does it make.
Suppose I am sitting in hell with other demons trying to destroy you're faith.
If you don't answer my arguments you will know that you are afraid of reason. If you do answer then you will know that you have reason.
People who hold views that aren't supported by reason are not reasonable.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy I am trying to answer your arguments. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for from me, especially in this forum with limited words. Be specific and I'll try to answer it. The reason your motive matters is this: if you are truly seeking I will do my best to help you find what you're looking for. You can't possibly destroy my faith built up over a road of almost 40 years of trials and blessings, prayers answered. There is nothing -NOTHING you could say to me that would shake it.
starshine428 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy By the way, not that this will matter to you, but just a bit of trivia - Tolkien was a Christian as, by the way, was C.S. Lewis.
Anyway, give me something SPECIFIC to reply to besides ranting
starshine428 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy Its all around you
Kennye12345 8 months ago
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@SamWiseGingy God has come into the world, and proven Himself over and over again - He performed such things as only the true God could perform. He pronounced the condemnation on those who did not believe, and were asking for yet another sign; that they would not believe even if He raised someone from the dead.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@starshine428
You are long on proclamation but very short on evidence.
If you had any evidence you need to criticize me.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
5 PEOPLE WORSHIP THE DEVIL
narreshramdayal 9 months ago
@narreshramdayal That's extreme. It could just be someone doesn't believe, or perhaps it's not their taste in music.
starshine428 8 months ago
Reading some of the less charitable comments here certainly makes it obvious just how much we all need a savior. Maybe we all need to study Ephesians 4:2-6 a little more carefully!
rosaamarilla79 9 months ago
@rosaamarilla79
Ephesians 2:8-9 is another good passage to study carefully!
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
As a Reformed Protestant Christian, I can honestly say that I do not hate Catholics, and I firmly believe that they should not be hated by the world--and especially by other Christians.
I may disagree with them on a few or even many things as far as doctrine and theology goes, but overall I consider them to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Happy Easter to ALL!
CharityAileen 9 months ago
As a Catholic person myself, may I compliment you on your beautiful greeting. I wish there were more people like you, Catholics included, who had your loving attitude. Happy Easter!
andyjourn 9 months ago
@CharityAileen
I disagree with Roman Catholics on the Gospel. I too am Reformed which means that when I get to the Judgment I would be an absolute fool to present my worthless works as merit in the sight of God. I have never done one good thing, (truly good), in my entire life. I will, therefore, trust Christ and his righteousness. If I perish, I will perish trusting in Christ's merit and not my own. The whole message of the Gospel is that we are evil and in desperate need of Christ.
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
@CharityAileen
I do not hate Catholics, (Christ commands us to love our enemies), but I just think Christians need to remember Paul's warning that if any man preaches any other Gospel let him be anathema. According to Paul, doctrine is very important. I know in a world where truth really doesnt matter anymore, this may seem strict to a lot of people, but right doctrine is important.
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
Thanks and Happy Easter
Cordially
Pastor JC
CAPTAINSCOTLAND1 9 months ago
Paul Simon often borrows music from classical sources. This was written by a man that I can't remember the name of, but the arrangement (edits) were done by Bach. Much Christian music has been written by Bach. Paul Simon just has good taste in music, although I have not heard him sing anything with this tune. What is the name of the song you are referring to that Simon sang?
888stevensful 10 months ago
@888stevensful The song is "American Tune" and it's one of his best IMO.
rtipping 10 months ago
i knew that this song was wrote before pauls simon born..i mean...why nobody tell this...why nobody in world don't tell nothing to paul simon..some journalist.someone......he know????...boh.....ty
bollak778 10 months ago
@Greenmagneticmoon move on to your death then if you choose
2011Roshea 10 months ago
but.....this is like american tune by paul simon......whyyyyyyyy?????can someone explain me that?i'm in shock..ty
bollak778 10 months ago
@bollak778
the music for this song goes way back before Paul Simon was born, so odds are it didnt steal from American Tune. Research the song on Wikipedia for a quick check.
irishwolfhound003 10 months ago
Does anyone know where I can get the sheet music for this arrangement?
MattPerk7 1 year ago
@MattPerk7
We are looking for this sheet music also. Did you find it?
Tauo 10 months ago
This beautiful worship music was penned by Bernard of Clairvoux in 1157 or close to that date. The truth that is written and sung is beyond or mere divisions that are man made and not from God. I love this song and the man Bernard of Clairvoux. He has written some great books on the faith.
jac9z 1 year ago
More Christian guilt trip.
Humanity did not cause death and disease.
I did not kill Jesus.
Stop trying to terrorize humanity with your myth.
SamWiseGingy 1 year ago
I grew up in mixed Jewish Christian family I sometimes write G-d like that it doesnt matter really
jesaintlouis 1 year ago
@jesaintlouis Just curious, why Jewish people write G-d instead of God, is it something to do with respecting His name or why is that?
1angel0777 10 months ago
@1angel0777 leaving out the O is showing respect and awe in that one can never say or write the formal name for him.
jesaintlouis 10 months ago
@jesaintlouis Okay, that's neat. Thanks for answering!
1angel0777 10 months ago
@1angel0777 jews will not write in the torah either or old testament for respect of the Holy G_d.
2011Roshea 10 months ago
Sometimes, when the tire is flat, rather than complain about who drove or road conditions or why me or who was at fault, maybe it is just time to get out and change the flat and get back on the road and head for the goal. Maybe being just a Christian is enough? and maybe we can pick up a few stragglers on the way too?
mysashadog 1 year ago 6
American tune is better.
mrutzen2 1 year ago
so beautifullll
thaiacapepe 1 year ago
This is absolutely beautiful. We'll be singing it for the first time in church tomorrow and I have the honor of signing it for the Deaf.
moxeygirl430 1 year ago
a Christian is a Christian just be happy we all have found G-D in our lives
jesaintlouis 1 year ago
@jesaintlouis why G-D and not GOD
jinjabreadboi 1 year ago
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@jesaintlouis why G-D and not God? Lol
jinjabreadboi 1 year ago
@huntingods-No one should be bashing religions for when Christ returns it will not be for a religion but for prepared people.People who have received Jesus as Lord savior & King ,Who acknowledges Almighty God as the one true God,who live lives pleasing holy & acceptable in His sight.The people you mentioned,popes they too have to stand before almighty God.If they did not live for God then,but if they did praise God.God is the only perfect one & we have to look to Him only through His son Jesus
kriccythequeen 1 year ago
How is it, that every time religion is mentioned, someone bashes the Catholic Church? morrij01 -- what of St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Cyril of Jerusalem, St Athanasius, St Appollonius, St Cecilia, St Cyprian, St Veronica, St Justin Martyr? The last six died in the early 300s or earlier (St Justin Martyr lived in the 100s). This is just a very small number. What of the 29 popes before 305ad?
huntinggods 1 year ago 12
@huntinggods It is not that someone is bashing anyone, to speak the Truth does require courage and the Holy Spirit will lead anyone who seeks God to Truth in Doctrine and Conduct. It is known that the Catholic Church have persecuted millions of Christians on questions on Doctrines, on Truths that the Bible have always taught but have been supressed by the Church of Rome. Many Saints do exist within the church but the system has proven what it's source is, that it is not of God.
Mekelsior 1 year ago
@Mekelsior I think you are stuggling with the nature of the Catholic Church. "IT has saints, and yet look at many of them". Have you found an answer yet?
brwnboy187 1 year ago
@huntinggods They cannot prove 29 popes before 305AD, it's pure invention of the catholics, they have no document to support it or historical facts to support it, simply because there was none. Read the Bible carefully and you'll find that any that is saved is a saint wheter alive or dead, no where in the Bible is the whole porcess of catholic sainthood desceribed. If you don't stick to what the Bible says you can come up with all sorts of heresies and that what the roman catholics have done.
morrij01 1 year ago
@morrij01 So I guess their writings are made-up too. What you choose to believe is up to you, I of all people cannot change that. Is it not odd, however, that some Protestants talk of the Bible as if it were around, completed, and intact for 2000 years? The Church came before the Bible - the Bible was not compiled until the 4th or 5th century. Why would I trust, then, a library compiled by heretics, as you seem to imply that they are? You may wish to read Irenaeus, a pupil of John. Pax.
huntinggods 1 year ago
@huntinggods The Bible was writting in the first century, it was compiled later to get rid of all the heretical texts that found their way with the real ones, but it was read and commented on well before the 4th century. But catholic theology was written much much later by Thomas of Aquinus made up from the roman cults with quasi-jewish ceremonies and ever adding and changing traditions. Sure they like the Bible when it suits them, but when it doesn't, the Bible takes second stage to traditions.
morrij01 1 year ago
@morrij01 I am certain the Church Fathers would disagree with you :). St. Thomas Aquinas did not write Catholic theology, in fact much of his ideas were stated previously in St. Augustine's writing. Aquinas merely presented such ideas in terms of philosophy. St. Augustine himself took his ideology from St. Ambrose, who took his ideology from his predecessors on down the line. I do not disagree with you on your first two and a half lines of your response, however. Pax tecum.
huntinggods 1 year ago
@huntinggods Well said.
bigstevesteve15 11 months ago
@huntinggods
The Roman Catholic Church has only itself to blame when people bash it. If the Roman Catholic Church had carried the banner of Christ and followed Christ's teachings, people would find it very difficult to bash this institution that is responsible for untold suffering throughout its existence.
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
@BanditCalvinist So, let me follow your logic here. If you "carry the banner of Christ" the world will like you? Hmm...
"If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you. If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (Jn 15:18-19).
huntinggods 9 months ago
@huntinggods
The world should hate the Catholic Church for the right reason: For love of Christ. The world hates the Catholic Church because no institution has inflicted more pain and suffering on so many people than this institution. Do you know how hard it is to witness for Christ when people are taught in history class that "Christians" are responsible for the Dark Ages? If a person chooses to be Catholic that's their decision but Catholics should at least come to grips with their history.
BanditCalvinist 9 months ago
@BanditCalvinist Right. Because there is no chance whatsoever that you were taught in a biased fashion. I'll be honest when I say this: History led me to the Church, Philosophy convinced me, Scripture sealed me. Calvin's followers are no less blood-stained than Peter's. No organization, no person, is innocent. We all deserve death. But the objective facts are on Rome's side. I will stand with Rome; I will stand with Christ.
huntinggods 9 months ago
@huntinggods I don't know the answer to your question, but I have a question that is sort of the opposite. Has anyone ever noticed that in tv shows or movies when they want to show a clergyman they are often priests? I am not a Catholic and don't object to Catholics being shown sometimes, but doesn't Hollywood know there are other denominations? And actually it seems to me that whenever they want to make Christians look bad they make the character a southerner (accent) and faith healer type.
starshine428 9 months ago
@starshine428 Interesting question. I have found several examples of shows where this is not the case. I think the primary reason for the entertainment media to use clergy dressed in Roman garb (there are other groups, mostly European, who use the Catholic clerical uniform) is because it is distinct from street clothes. At least, that is what I've always assumed (I was raised Southern Baptist, btw). It's simply easier to see someone in priest garb and think "clergy" than any other outfit.
huntinggods 9 months ago
@starshine428 I think, as a continuation of my last post, that Catholic imagery is often targeted simply because Catholicism is the largest group and it is easily identifiable. If the entertainment media wants to attack Christianity, they are going to go for the biggest target. Sometimes it is critical to the plot (as in Doubt), but at other times it is simply "coincidence." I have seen so much disparaging of Christianity recently, that I tend to not watch TV or go to movies anymore.
huntinggods 9 months ago
@huntinggods That makes sense to me. Sorry for the delayed response, I don't check my youtube inbox often enough
starshine428 8 months ago
@huntinggods Because of fear and ignorance mostly my friend. Especially during the Middle Ages when The Church abused their powers to obtain money and more power. There are many paralells in the early church times and the power hungry monarchs (aka politicians). Keep Henry The Eighth in Mind. Look at what Crowmwell did "in the name of Christianity" as well as John Knox and so many others I won't list now. Just to promote thier causes!
MQS02 8 months ago
@huntinggods Catholicism, today's version, did not really exist until the 7th century. There were no popes prior to that and I don't believe an actual pope was put in place until, at least, the 8th century. Catholicism is a religion, which is man made. Most of the people you mentioned followed the teachings of scripture directly. Churches, before then, did not hold authority over the word of God, rather, were servants of it. The Catholic church makes its authority equal with scripture.
AlltoChrist36 7 months ago
@AlltoChrist36 glad to see there is people who see past the lies.
Mcstroke57 7 months ago
@Mcstroke57 Thanks Mcstroke. I was saved out of the Catholic church. If there is a church practice that implies greater holiness, but doesn't line up with scripture, then it doesn't glorify God, but man. I live my life solely by the teaching of scripture. Even my pastor must be measured by the word of God. Scripture is the ultimate authority, not a man and not a church!
AlltoChrist36 7 months ago
@huntinggods I believe that there are many within the Roman Catholic Church who are saved. Nonetheless, if you read Augustine's 'City of God', you will realise that even he fights against the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is the city of God. There have been many great Christians who lived and died Roman Catholics. The problem is that they claim that 'there is no salvation outside the holy roman church.'
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@huntinggods Someone can be in the Roman Church, and yet be outside Christ. Yea, if they will trust in Christ alone, if they will forsake the world and follow Him, if Christ will make them new creatures, they will be saved. But let a man not believe in Christ, a man can do penances, indulgences - yea, do everything the priest tells them to do - even let the priest administer what he calls 'last rites'; the man will be damned.
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@huntinggods "he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36) "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5) The pope is no mediator between God and man; nor is Mary, nor any apostle or prophet or saint. The apostle Paul himself wrote to the Galatians, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8)
JonathanMartinovici 7 months ago
@JonathanMartinovici I will make my response in only one post. I have grown weary of this discussion. Do you think that I believe that a Catholic cannot be damned? The visionary saints have said that those saved are few, even among Catholics! Scripture says this. My position is simply that the simplest path to Christ is through the Church - we have the opportunity to receive Him each Mass. I thank you for your responses, but these conversations are slowing my walk with Him. Pax tecum.
huntinggods 7 months ago
@morrij01 Thanks for your reply to my comment. This is a Catholic hymn.
Thrusce 1 year ago
beautiful song. thanks for posting.
kirui5 1 year ago
This is the finest rendering/arrangement of this song I have ever heard.
aaronlbortz1 1 year ago
i can't help but cry!!!
macky3692 1 year ago
where can i buy this cd?
tourceres 1 year ago
Long live the Word and it's supernal Author, and to the Light that gives clarity and freedom. Our darkest times and woes cannot compare to the promises that shine forth hope and life from the place of an Arimathean's generosity and another's temporary state of repose.
CidHawg 1 year ago
This is so beautiful. I actually am more familair with this tune as Paul Simon's 'American Tune' but I knew it was a sacred song as well. It is so beatiful and beautifully sung here.
Lulilac 1 year ago
Incredible hymm. God bless you Jesus and all the sufferings you endured for mankind.
fcriii 1 year ago
I love jesus (severe understatement) like this if you feel the same
megamacho1 1 year ago
After 260 years, the music of Johann Sebastian Bach endures. And Fernando sings it better than most. Well done.
BobTheWhistler 1 year ago
@BobTheWhistler It is nice to know that Bach Was Lutheran
Dmstrucker 1 year ago
@Dmstrucker ha ha
nejuw 1 year ago
Praise God for the Sacrifice of His only Son!!!
doctorparadigmshift 1 year ago
very very romantic, ugly music, change for gregorian that is better.
adrianofsaraujo 1 year ago
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Sorry about all of the duplicates...the software for this site keeps crashing.
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