yes but Ney did not do basic tatical advance to exploit a enemy with artillary and infantry support.....this is what made Nap upset Ney always thought that fearless or foolhardy action can overcome sound tatics..it worked for him at times but at waterloo it didnt...
Wellington's Waterloo army included only around 40% British - roughly that number was in the sector of the mass French cavalry charges. The rest of the army was made up of troops from Dutch, Belgians, and various German states.
@Vash002 i respect your opinion on the matter but in instances i have viewed, such as; Lord Of the Rings CGI horses are used. If you could tell me some recent films that use this form of treatment to horses please let me know.
P.S. this is a real enquiry, It sounded sarcastic and I thought I better clear it up.
@themindofben CGI is just used to pad the numbers, on close ups with real actors the horses are real. In LOTR they had about 150-200 horses to use in filming.
The stunt horses are trained to fall over (They just get back up again straight away which is why the editor cuts away quickly after they fall) and desensitised to loud noises and thats it. Obviously they cant really stomp on a horses head with a 5 story high elephant so that has to be CGI.
@themindofben I have the 1970 souvenir booklet from this movie. They used 50 circus stuntmen to perform dangerous falls. So I assume that means stunt horses. It is doubtful they were using trip wires, which could kill horses (as in 1936 The Charge of the Light Brigade which killed dozens and led to a ban of their use). By 1970 films with cruelty were being cut or banned. Sergei Bondarchuk wouldn't want to lose sales over horses, making such an epic film, so stunt animals were used.
he underestimated the Russians..... he maybe thought they would end up as badly defeated like at Austerlitz and Friedland with a frontal attack strategy.
I believe some Russian troops were 'allowed' in the battle to lie down in formation to avoid the cannon shots.
@slizzler1, LordGeorgeRodney is a good fellow, but it's not easy for him to admit anything. I had a friendly debate with him for a couple of days whether the Normans were French or not. I noticed that he was starting to crack and I was winning the argument. He wanted to conclude the debate and that's that.
He even glorifys the bombing of Mers el Kebir as if it were just another ordinary victory the British won against the French.
I've seen types like LordGeorgeRodney many many times on YT over he years. The stubborn ignorant character flaws they have is based on very foolish pride; the only thing that breaks them out of that self destructive mentality is being blunt and hard with contempt and abundance of facts.
Yes- exactly; types like him glorifies wars like they were soccer matches. His mind is devoid of understanding what historical truth is and what battles and war do to human beings.
frontal assaults are usually made to crush the enemy in a head to head fight.... in these attacks one side cannot escape in good order if they lose.... usually they will be mostly taken prisoner or become casualties.
In a flank attack, there is a chance to escape if the defender chooses to escape the danger... flank attacks take a lot of time to perform. Sometimes leaders want a simple strategy that uses little time- so they choose frontal attacks; soldiers pay the price.
Yes; exactly- I was going to mention that- You must know where that 'park' of artillery was stationed.... it was in the center rear.... imagine the Guard getting massacred by a cannonade of 200 fresh guns.
Napoleon knew his Empire's existence was at stake -he was playing a careful chess game; he knew a quick unwise decision could destroy everything. There was too much that could go wrong he imagined.
Most of Wellington's army were dead tired by battle's end. The Allied cavalry were very hesitant to attack the Old Guard battalions. On the other hand, although exhausted by march and battle were obsessed with revenge and were superhuman in taking up the pursuit of the French fugitives...... they were real fanatics.
Yes- Napoleon wanted to destroy the Russians, but wanted to have his army still in one piece. The Russian flanks at Borodino were not crushed, Russian cavalry and artillery were still great in number near battle's end, and Napoleon's army had heavy losses in the veterans Corps. If using the Guard had failed, Napoleon would have been in horrific trouble for the campaign. The intact Guard saved the little of Napoleon's army in the retreat from Moscow.
Soldiers in battles never describe hard battles as a glorious. They usually cry and have nightmares and think of so many friends they lost. They feel proud about fighting alongside fellow brave soldiers and they feel guilty and lucky to survive, and they may feel joyful being in a victory, but they never glorify those battles. Politicians and romantic writers and artists love to glorify battles and ignore the horrors. Ney had several horses shot under him- he was suicidally brave
@slizzler1 5 in total, with the death of the fifth he ascended the hills on foot. Certainly one of the most courageous but strategically less talented than Davout, Soult and Murat
@slizzler1 Now that is interesting. 12345668587 may be referring to Ney, who beat the British at the Battle of the River Côa. The British were in the wrong place and out numbered, so they fell back. Ney who was the bravest of the brave but not necessarily the brightest, might have been expecting them to do the same thing at Waterloo, hence the massive and largely pointless cavalry charges.
@oarfrost Yes, Indeed, I am. Ney and Massena had won battles against Wellington, and I will show them: brusquely defeated the British on the River Côa, and fought at Buçaco. During the retreat from Torres Vedras, Ney worsted Wellington's forces in a series of lauded rearguard actions (Pombal, Redinha, Casal Novo, Foz d'Aronce) with which he delayed the pursuing enemy forces enough to allow the main French force to retreat unmolested. You see, he was a not a good commander.
@12345668587 But the only problem was that they failed to take the advantage of destroying Wellington.This was clearly a case of Bleinhiem, 1704, the campagin went excatly like Ney and Massena's retreat from Spain and Salamanca proved it for the French.
@12345668587, Massena was close to defeating Wellington at the Battle of Fuentos De Onoro. He ordered the Horse Grenadiers of the Guard under Louis Lepic to make a charge, but the commander refused to obey Massena's orders. He only recognized Bessieres as his superior. The opportunity to deal a decisive blow to Wellington was gone.
@oarfrost He wasn't, despite his bravery, he must have misunderstood the actions of the English when they were retreating. But Ney , in dangerous times, especially in Russia, proved his worth.
Yes- but recall, that Ney only launched the first half of the cavalry charges -and with the actual approval of Napoleon; this fact is not mentioned. The movie keeps the myth going that Napoleon never knew about Ney's charges from the start.
Napoleon personally launched the second half of the cavalry charges.
During these charges Wellington's losses in his center became alarming. In between charges the Allied squares were getting eroded by French artillery.
At Borodino, Napoleon thought it prudent to keep his Guard intact. The Russians were going to be a threat even after the battle for the rest of the campaign. I think he knew he wouldn't end up routing the Russians even if the Guard busted their center in the battle. And he hardly had much cavalry left to make a classic pursuit of a beaten enemy. I think he made a wise choice.
In actual fact, Wellington's army was flat exhausted by the end of Waterloo... and those in the final general advance had little desire to be the last ones to die in the Allied army after enduring 9 hours of hell in the battle, only to be shot down by the fanatic fresh Old Guard battalions.
Ney I agree, because he lost time unnecessarily four arms and throwing the infantry far too late. I think Marshal Louis Nicolas Davout was the man for the job. It would have a bite of the English army
Keep in mind though that Wellington would have been destroyed if 20,000+ French and the Old Guard were not kept back to watch the Prussians. Wellington was victorious, but only because of the Prussian pressure drawing away French reserves to fight them.
At 4.30pm, the Prussians were set up in battle order to start their first attack directly at that time. They had arrived earlier but were spread out in marching formation before 4.30pm.
@9911aleksey frankly if you want me to believe that the allies are defeated the french before the arrival of Prussian. You are wasting your time. Better go to bed now ^ ^ good night
@9911aleksey when the guard was involved, the Prussians were already on the field of battlegroup on the left flank. And La Haye Sainte already in french
The Allied Left Wing at Waterloo was not mostly British. Picton had two badly reduced British battalions. The British union cavalry brigade was near the center, and the British light cavalry brigades of Vivian and Vandeleur were on the flank too. Bilandt's brigade was amidst Picton's division. To their left was Vincke and Best's Hanoverian brigades. On the flank was the huge brigade of Saxe-Weimer's Nassauers. The Dutch cavalry brigade of Ghingy was near the Union brigade.
The Prussians arrived and started battle halfway through the battle of Waterloo. They faced about a third of Napoleon's army. The rest of the French were not entirely defeated at 4.30pm. Wellington was still worried about Hougoumont. La Haye Sainte fell at 6.30pm. Napoleon committed the last French cavalry corps at 5.30pm. The Old and Middle Guard were intact.So, at 4:30pm when the Prussians arrived, the French forces facing Wellington were still not entirely beaten.
@slizzler1 I would have said exactly the opposite. Old and Middle Guard were intact.So at 4:30 pm, when the Prussians arrived, the forces of Wellington deal with french were not yet fully defeated. It seems to me more just ^ ^
The French 1st and 2nd Corps were largely beaten by 4.30pm; But yes- the two cavalry corps [ except for about a division used in D'Erlon's attack] and the Guard cavalry and Old + Middle Guard were not touched byy that time.
@slizzler1 .The error is that the load was run until 15:00 and only followed by the infantry at 18:30. At that time, the Hague Sainte fell to the French. Ney advanced guns that take enfilade the British positions. Allied situation is critical. Ney asked for reinforcements to finish but with the threat Prussian Napoleon refused. If ney would have followed him by the infantry, it would save time and Napoleon would certainly have given the reinforcements he asked
Capturing the farmhouse did create the crisis for Wellington though. Right after the capture one French battery brought up to the crossroads was literally destroying the center at close range before it was silenced finally. A fresh French division of infantry of Old or Middle Guard would have cracked Wellington's line in two very very likely at the sector.
Wellingtons Left Wing had as many non-British soldiers as British ones - particularly Hanoverian and Nassau battalions/ batteries- as well as Bijlandt's Dutch-Belgians.
I should say I'm not playing favourites about which nations are the best in wars; my point was to the ultra-national war glorifying LordGeorge who is fantasizes about battles British were in like soccer games. He is ignorant about the suffering of soldiers in battles. I used to be like that too though. Maybe he'll understand one day. Brit soldiers were humans who lost many battles, colonies, too and were invaded.
@9911aleksey ^ ^ So we do not agree, because after taking the Haye Sainte, the army was allied in a very bad position and ney has not received the request reinforcements
@9911aleksey sorry, I do not understand what you mean. In your first comment you said that the Amée of Napoleon had been defeated by the Prussian troops arrive
@9911aleksey the question is not if the french have pushed the Prussian arrival. But if it arrived on the battlefield could liberate troops and strengthen the middle of Willington, or the french attacked
@9911aleksey Protected on the east by the arrival of the Prussian I Corps (Von Zieten), Wellington can get units to strengthen the center. If you've read lots of books and you can not understand that. Why read??
Half the Allied battalions on Mont St. Jean Ridge facing Ney's AND Napoleon's cavalry charges were not British.
People don't realize that Ney got permission from Napoleon to use the first cavalry units in the first charges. Napoleon arrived just over an hour later and he directly ordered the last half of the cavalry charges with fresh cavalry units.
the burden of French cavalry was not a failure.The error is that the load was run until 15:00 and only followed by the infantry at 18:30. At that time, the Hague Sainte fell to the French. Ney advanced guns that take enfilade the British positions. Allied situation is critical. Ney asked for reinforcements to finish but with the threat Prussian Napoleon refused. If ney would have followed him by the infantry, it would save time and Napoleon would certainly have given the reinforcements he asked
@TheJEANFB In the end they would have been repelled just like old times Salamanca Fuentes Albuera, Talavera, Bussaco Barossa, Maida, etc etc...
Column vs line was always a failure and the end result saw the French running way from British bayonets...
deal with it...
At Waterloo it was nothing new The French tried with cavalry and infantry combined with artillery and still failed to knock the Anglo allies off the ridge... Hougamont held off 5 French attacks through out the day
@LordGeorgeRodney^ ^ You say that victories in Spain. France sent as inexperienced conscript . HOUGOUMONT, yes a waste of time for the French army. And we must say a heroic resistance. Normal there was no English has hougemont
In fact there were 4,000 British out of 7,000 in total in and around the farm.
In the farm itself were 2,000 men of the British Foot Guards who repelled every French attack & 'shut the doors' on the French when they broke through..,
@LordGeorgeRodney . The only Britons to be involved on 18 at 11.30 hrs in the defensive system is a light company of Coldstream and a light company of the 3rd (Scots) Guards, which both took up positions around the buildings west. The defense of Hougoumont is madeexclusively by the Orange-Nassau Regiment
@TheJEANFB The French always make excuses when it comes to defeats...
I have heard them all before..
London is littered with French cannons captured during the Napoleonic wars Some have been turned in to bollards in Trafalgar square or cast into street lamps on London and Waterloo Bridge...
@LordGeorgeRodney I think you misinterpret my comment. I'm not trying to excuse, explain the mistakes that were madeand it led to defeat. You join in the conversation and good English you wanted to make a victory Waterllo British, which is false. Including a Hougoumont, the only place where the Allies not facing the remote French. Sorry to break a myth my friend ^ ^
Funny comment ..lol 6,000 Anglo Dutch German troops defending the farm and area (4,000 of whom were British) against 3 French divisions tallying over 14,000 men. Sorry to break the myth to you my friend but you lost the battle and you can't seem to deal with it...
@LordGeorgeRodney 1 a ) At 06.00 hrs approximately, the Duke of Wellington has inspected the position and gave the order to occupy the castle and the surrounding area by the 1st Battalion, 2nd Regiment of Nassau before 10.00 hrs, when the Nassau arrive, the light companies of the 2nd and 3rd battalions of the 1st Guards, under Lord Saltoun, evacuate the castle and its outbuildings, reach most of their battalion on the ridge above the field, while the light companies of the Coldstream
@LordGeorgeRodney 1 b ) and the second battalion of the 3rd Guards, under Macdonnell , post themselves in the garden to the west of the great .And I have no problem dealing with this defeat, as long as we stay in the historical fact. For example two French divisions were mobilized etaint and not 3. So 1200 troops, not 1400 ^ ^
@TheJEANFB Good then at least the Guards were in the farm which is what I said in the first place...
Throughout the day the French committed a total of 3 infantry divisions (5th, 6th, & 9th plus the 2nd cavalry division) to the attack on the farm.. 14,000 men including artillery..
The closing of the gates involved the guards including the "The bravest man at Waterloo" CPL James Graham.
@LordGeorgeRodney ^ ^ You are a troll. Always the same message. I will end this discussion. Do you think the English have dared confront the french in 1 vs 1. The only time the English have dared confront the 1 vs 1 English was during the 100 years war. I must say that was your kings french ^ ^. Food for thought
You really should stop embarrassing yourself with your 'Immortal Glory' crap.
One can mention many epic defeats of Britain.... not to mention all the invasions of Britain that succeeded.
You, yourself should be aware that if you think you're English from caveman days, that in fact you are 50% likely Saxon in origins from the times of the Saxon invasions of England in the Dark Ages. England has been a Roman colony, a Saxon one, and a French one in its history.
@slizzler1 LOL! Check history! 1216 invasion of England by Louis VIII of France 1386-7 invasion 1545 Isle of Wight 1549 French invasion of Jersey repulsed FAILURE 1692 Barflur & La Hogue - FAILURE 1708 French invasion plan to land on Scotland but defeated by George Byng FAILURE 1745 French-backed Jacobite invasion 1759 Quiberon Bay The 1779 Armada 1780 French invasion of Jersey repulsed FAILURE 1796 Expédition d'Irlande 1798 Invason of Ireland FAILURE 1797 Fishgaurd 1803 - 1805 nuff said
Pire's cavalry division - that was attached to Reille's Corps was not used at all in attacking Hougoumont. They were used as an extended observation force on the French Left flank.
RFLMAO at your idea of 'the bravest man at Waterloo'..... you really make Brits look stupid; you and other nationalists say very dopey things about the battle. Every soldier that fought at Waterloo deserves recognition; especially the piles of dead at Plancenoit and La Haye Sainte.
"Funny comment ..lol 6,000 Anglo Dutch German troops defending the farm and area (4,000 of whom were British) against 3 French divisions tallying over 14,000 men. "
Wrong.
Only two divisions of Gen.Reille's 2nd Corps was used to directly attack Hougoumont. Bachelu's division was used in a bungled attack north-east of Hougoumont in a lacking effort to support the last of the French cavalry charges.
What's so funny regarding an outnumbered force holding a fortified post?
"Column vs line was always a failure and the end result saw the French running way from British bayonets..."
You clearly are one of these British ultra-nationals that occasionally show up here glorifying war and pumping out long smashed myths of the battle.
For one thing;
D'Erlon's columns were pushing back the brigades of Picton and Bijlandt at 2pm. Only the spectacular counter attack by Uxbridge's cavalry destroyed those columns.
Are you not aware that the attack of the outnumbered Imperial Middle Guard was split into attacks on various parts of Mont St.Jean ridge. The Grenadiers of the Middle Guard were beaten back by Gen.Detmers brigade of Dutch Belgians, the Chasseurs of the Middle Guard were destroyed by British and Hanoverian units.
There's no glory in war; only romanticists and propagandists try to make horrific battles glorious. Waterloo was a horrifying battle fought bravely by many nations.
horses are not stupid animals they know whats sharp and dangerous and against their riders will , they will turn another direction to avoid that sharp object so those squares are death to any rider who charges into them.
@Criticallacitirc Good point - it's hard to imagine the sheer scale of it. What happened in the end - were the French cavalry just completely slaughtered?
Can anyone explain why the french cavalry didn't retreat when they discovered the British in squares instead of just galloping round the squares being shot at? Was it communication restrictions or did they hope to break into the squares?
@slizzler1, I don't think Napoleon's decision to commit the Middle Guard has anything to do with believing in miracles. The Imperial Guard was basically his final reserve, and he cannnot afford to divert soldiers from other parts of the battlefield to fend off the Prussians converging on his right flank. If you've run out of available troops, and you still have your trump card to turn the tables, then you should take some risk in order to gain victory.
Certainly a miracle - if we look at the battlefield at 6.30pm.
Wellington's center was in a total crisis- but his flanks were solid.
Meanwhile, Napoleon had zero reserves left beyond the Imperial Guard infantry.
On his Left, Reille's Corps was smashed at Hougoumont, in the center, D'Erlon's Corps was depleted but in control of La Haye Sainte and suppressing Wellington's center. But on his right, no miracle could stop the Prussians> Napoleon MIGHT beat Wellington, but not Blucher
@slizzler1, I can see your point. An exhausted and badly depleted French army cannot hope to defeat a fresh Prussian army numbering 50,000 strong. Btw, didn't you say that Churchill wanted to gas the Iraqis somewhere in the 1920s. I remember you said that once a long while ago.
In actuality, only the Prussian 4th Corps of Bulow was somewhat fresh. The other 2 Prussian Corps were in the defeat and retreat at Ligny. On June 18th the arriving Prussians had marched through difficult terrain since early morning to get to the battle. Their arrival was not 50,000 at once; Pirsch's 2nd Corps arrived mostly near the battle's conclusion.
Yes- on Churchill; he also mused with British politicians and air-fleet commanders over dropping poison gas on German cities.
@slizzler1 "Yes- on Churchill; he also mused with British politicians and air-fleet commanders over dropping poison gas on German cities." it's one thing to bomb cities, but urging the usage of poison gas is absolutely a brutal thing. He'd be just as bad as the Nazis if this ever occured.
yes- this is actually another reason why right wingers and extremists are a vile poison to progressive humanity; they bring out the worst in normal people; hate-cults like the neonazis and al quaeda purposefully try to provoke the worst in civilized humans in a reaction to them; then they get what they want; dragging others down to their sewer level.... ie, they can't be declared the lowliest scum in society as a result.
@expertstrategy Here's the exact Churchill quote from the 1920s: "I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes." (he was referring to actions against rebels in Iraq) It's quite appalling that this man is considered one of the greatest Britons nowadays, with history turning a blind eye to his darker side. His enthusiastic support for carpet bombing civilian centres in Germany should also be remembered...
Even great people have a dark side. Churchill was quite bloodthirsty, and he allowed revenge to cloud his moral judgement when he consented to the bombings of German cities.
@WolfytheWolf5667, I don't see what the Russian dead have anything to do with Churchill's decision to ruthlessly bomb German cities. That type of revenge is more than enough for anybody to condemn Churchill as a war criminal. Killing people out of revenge is still a war crime.
I see Churchill as a great hero, but like most great leaders, his hands are soaked in blood, just like Alexander, Napoleon, Cromwell, etc...
@expertstrategy Churchill alwyas was "bloodthirsty" It has nothing to do with revenge. In fact he pioneered the bombing of civilians and use of poison gas against civilians in in British Mesopotamia in 1920.
In his enthusiasm for utilizing gas bombing, Churchill was unwilling to admit that even gas irritants could prove deadly to children, the elderly, and the infirm. Gas caused blindness and other physical problems which could not be cured, but this was irrelevant to Churchill.
@Zappiss In the full quote Churchill states "The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected" Churchill was advocating the use of lachrymatory gas. Known today as tear gas and used by modern police forces to combat riots. Not Mustard gas.
He couldn't send the Guard... he felt frozen in a dilemma; remember at Borodino he coldly criticized a suggestion he throw in his Imperial Guard at critical moment in the battle - his idea was to keep his reserves intact in the event of a further crisis in the future.
At Waterloo, at 6.30pm, Napoleon was watching in terror the massive onslaught of 3 Prussian Corps that he knew was unstoppable in destroying his right flank; that's why as you know, he held back his Old Guard too.
@slizzler1, true, had Napoleon sent the Imperial Guard, he could have turned Borodino into an Austerlitz-like defeat for the Russians. Even if Napoleon did accomplish his objective in defeating the Russian army in a pitched battle, I don't think Alexander I would sue for peace. The Russians didn't sue for peace despite losing millions of men and a lot of territory to the Axis invasion army in 1941. In the winter, the Russians will simply call in the massive reserves to deal with the invaders.
The Russian strategy in the Fall of 1812 was somewhat similar to the final Soviet tactic in 1942..... let the invader advance deeper and slowly deteriorate due to environmental/ Lines-of-communications distance factors.....I wonder if Borodino would have been an Austerlitz if the Guard attacked- the Russians had masses of artillery in reserve lines - the losses might have been too heavy for Napoleon's army if they did try a decisive final stroke.
Such an attack must have sufficient proper strength and support too- as well as complex tactical fore-thought..... ie, D'Erlon's infantry attack had cavalry support that was too far away.
It was an odd place to push Bachelu's division..... it was aimed at the point north east of Hougoumont where Wellington's line was out of most of the French artillery's long range firing.... so the attack was hitting a massively defended area, and against units that had hardly any casualties- compared to the units directly on top of Mont St.Jean- like Halkett's/ Kielmansegge's/ Ompteda's brigade...... but these positions were far away from Bachelu's starting point.
Yes- Napoleon had a superb artillery commander -Drouot- who should have -if he didn't- suggested close artillery support in the 2 hours of charges. It is an eternal mystery that all experts ask.
The last fresh 'line' infantry troops in the charges was Bachelu's division- it was used in support of the last charges near Hougoumont, but the attack was destroyed very easily.
As Wellington said- he only barely hung on. Napoleon almost beat him with inferior numbers facing Wellington.
Due to so many French deployed to face the Prussians, Wellington actually outnumbered the rest of the French army deployed against him - except perhaps artillery.
It was strange that the French did not immediately set fire to La Haye Sainte and Hougoumont so that they didn't have to attack burning undefended buildings.
I'm surprised Gen.Drouot- Napoleon's superb artillery commander had not made an observation/advice on using French artillery in close support of the cavalry..... or was he with Napoleon focused on the Prussian threat at the time. - Napoleon used over a quarter of his army to fight the Prussian flank attack..... these were the troops Ney needed to break Wellington's weak center after the fall of La Haye Sainte.
Hougoumont was broken into by the French, but not captured.
Napoleon had the surprise of his life finding out the Prussians were coming into his flank.
He was not really ill enough to lose the battle -that day as most people suggest. He found himself having to supervise defending his right flank defenses against the Prussians during the afternoon. Ney, Soult and Reille did not act as great solo-commanders. Nap's reserves mostly went to fighting the Prussians [Lobau/ Young Guard] - these would have destroyed the Allies.
I gotta go after this; but keep in mind Napoleon would have destroyed Wellington by evening if the Prussians had not arrived halfway through the battle. Napoleon's losses would have been horrific still though; D'Erlon smashed on Ohain ridge, Reille's Corps at Hougoumont, Two Heavy cavalry Corps and Guard cavalry divisions all smashed up by 6 pm. Only Lobau + the entire Guard Foot would have been available to destroy Wellington.
Wellington only fought, believing Blucher would come
If artillery was on Mont St.Jean firing down on Wellington's packed masses of rear-slope deployed troops, it would've been a slaughter.
Just one French battery that had set up on the crossroads area after La Haye Sainte's fall was wreaking a huge slaughter in Wellington's center- creating the crisis moment for Wellington.
napoleon Should had shot Ney for recklessness by sending 12,000 french calvary up the ridge in pursuit of Wellington,whom he believe was retreating. But he was pulling his men out of artilery range and into infantry squares, which were killing fields.
@9911aleksey I agree, although to some extent he had to make sure he had strong people at home in positions of power because he faced potential invasion from Italy, Spain, Austria and Russia as well as from enemies at home. So the likes of Davout and Soult were used to those ends.
Napoleon's lacklustre after Ligny was inexplicable - he didn't move to engage W at Quatre Bras but wasted time - as did Ney - and allowed W to escape to better ground.
@zenoist2 He returned from Elba and had an army of around 70,000. Wellington had around 120,000. Not only did Napoleon Break Wellingtons lines 3 times. Before the Prussians got there. An un-authorized Advance of Lieutenant General Picton's Brigade, stopped the French long enough for the Prussians to arrive, after Napoleon advanced most of his army to engage Picton's men, he didn't have enough to fight the Prussians. Wellington Rushed to get his report done, and said he basically won the battle.
@kingbball7 Alone, which was a lie, the Scottish, French, Brunswickers, and Prussian reports were nearly Identical. The British Regimental Commander Reports resembled Wellingtons more, what I am getting at, is not only was his report a Lie, he knew that if he lost this battle he would not survive, his monarch would have discharged him from the army, and if he was captured Napoleon would have had him executed. Plain and Simple, Wellington= Loser, Napoleon= Unlucky, Gebhard Von Blucher=Savior.
He was one of many of tens of thousands of brave soldiers that day. There were heroes on that day on all sides.... particularly amongst the piles of 4, 5, 6 deep of French dead bodies at Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte.
@kingbball7 Wellington commanded 68,000 men not 120,000 men, there was only 118,000 men if you combine Wellingtons and Bluchers army and for the most part of the day he stood and took a pounding from Napoleons army waiting for the Prussians to arrive. The whole plan was for Wellington to stand and take the pounding so that both armys could combine and attack Napoleon, hows Blucher the saviour when his army was made to purposly arrive slowly which almost cost the Anglo-allies the war
On June 15th, the Prussian outposts put up a stiff rearguard fight in their effort to delay the start of Napoleon's offensive. Wellington's response was very slow in comparison. In fact his orders to his own army was to retreat to a rear position if Napoleon's army showed up. That would have been a disaster since that was Napoleon's genius plan- to divide Wellington and Blucher.
However, a Dutch-Belgians/Nasseur division stationed around Quatre Bras defied Wellington's orders.
The action of the veteran commanders of Perponcher's division on June 15th saved the campaign and Wellington's strategic blunder. They made a stand at Quatre-Bras and thus retained a link between Wellington and Blucher - this allowed Wellington to realize his initial mistake, and then concentrate his army at Quatre Bras on June 16th. This had the effect of saving Blucher from total annihilation at Ligny.
Napoleon's initial genius plan to split the Allies in Belgium was destroyed.
What you and others don't bother to do is to ever study the campaign from its very start. June 15th was a critical day in the campaign- and the Prussians rose to the occasion.
Regarding their defeat on the 16th; they should have retreated back to Prussia to save the remnants of their beaten army. But their critics -like yourself- don't understand that Blucher instead chose a potentially suicidal act - to link up with Wellington instead and cut himself off from escape to Prussia.
yes but Ney did not do basic tatical advance to exploit a enemy with artillary and infantry support.....this is what made Nap upset Ney always thought that fearless or foolhardy action can overcome sound tatics..it worked for him at times but at waterloo it didnt...
Dojocho 1 day ago
I think it's awesome how they wait for the horses, then open fire
farcry550 3 weeks ago
textbook defence by the british, i would hate to be the horse charging at the hedgehogs of bayonets.
Fishfingers232 3 weeks ago 3
@Fishfingers232
More than half the squares attacked by the cavalry charges were not British. Factually.
slizzler1 2 days ago
@slizzler1 Prussian?
Fishfingers232 1 day ago
@slizzler1
? Prussian ?
Wellington's Waterloo army included only around 40% British - roughly that number was in the sector of the mass French cavalry charges. The rest of the army was made up of troops from Dutch, Belgians, and various German states.
slizzler1 3 hours ago
i wonder what the blue on blue casualty numbers were when they did this at waterloo? i would rather be on a flank facing out lol
gonkerooney 1 month ago
40 Squadrons of Cavalry was used in that charge and it was second in measure cavalry charge ever made after Leipzig battle 100 squadrons...
sandrik100 2 months ago
@sandrik100 i heard it was eylau the largest cavalry charge.
boss180888 1 month ago
And, too conclude, Ney was a spanner
ThisNameWasntUs3d 2 months ago 10
@ThisNameWasntUs3d no he was a genius of tactics, medieval tactics...
GeneralAdvance 1 week ago
i think its appauling seeing the treatment of horses in this and comparing it to now adays where animated horses are used
themindofben 3 months ago
@themindofben They still use stunt horses in the same manner now, nothing beats the real thing. And its not cruel.
Vash002 2 months ago
@Vash002 i respect your opinion on the matter but in instances i have viewed, such as; Lord Of the Rings CGI horses are used. If you could tell me some recent films that use this form of treatment to horses please let me know.
P.S. this is a real enquiry, It sounded sarcastic and I thought I better clear it up.
themindofben 2 months ago
@themindofben CGI is just used to pad the numbers, on close ups with real actors the horses are real. In LOTR they had about 150-200 horses to use in filming.
The stunt horses are trained to fall over (They just get back up again straight away which is why the editor cuts away quickly after they fall) and desensitised to loud noises and thats it. Obviously they cant really stomp on a horses head with a 5 story high elephant so that has to be CGI.
Vash002 2 months ago
@Vash002 i guess so, but im just saying that alot of these horses could have been hurt in filming, they probably weren't but its possible.
I am viewing it from a different perspective now so fair do's
themindofben 2 months ago
@themindofben I have the 1970 souvenir booklet from this movie. They used 50 circus stuntmen to perform dangerous falls. So I assume that means stunt horses. It is doubtful they were using trip wires, which could kill horses (as in 1936 The Charge of the Light Brigade which killed dozens and led to a ban of their use). By 1970 films with cruelty were being cut or banned. Sergei Bondarchuk wouldn't want to lose sales over horses, making such an epic film, so stunt animals were used.
MarcusBritish 1 month ago
luckily the samoan national army did not attack both sides........
or you be speaking samoan right now...........
etornel79 3 months ago
My ! The Soviet forces were most impressive extras in this movie.
BigDon62 3 months ago 7
@9911aleksey
he underestimated the Russians..... he maybe thought they would end up as badly defeated like at Austerlitz and Friedland with a frontal attack strategy.
I believe some Russian troops were 'allowed' in the battle to lie down in formation to avoid the cannon shots.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1, LordGeorgeRodney is a good fellow, but it's not easy for him to admit anything. I had a friendly debate with him for a couple of days whether the Normans were French or not. I noticed that he was starting to crack and I was winning the argument. He wanted to conclude the debate and that's that.
He even glorifys the bombing of Mers el Kebir as if it were just another ordinary victory the British won against the French.
expertstrategy 3 months ago
@expertstrategy
I've seen types like LordGeorgeRodney many many times on YT over he years. The stubborn ignorant character flaws they have is based on very foolish pride; the only thing that breaks them out of that self destructive mentality is being blunt and hard with contempt and abundance of facts.
Yes- exactly; types like him glorifies wars like they were soccer matches. His mind is devoid of understanding what historical truth is and what battles and war do to human beings.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@expertstrategy ''I was winning the argument''
LOL! You never came back !
what a hilarious statement! .
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LordGeorgeRodney, uh, no, you concluded the debate first not me.
This is what you said days ago. "well that in itself is why they are called Normans
I think we will end it there"
I was willing to go on, but I assumed you decided to stop because of the last thing you said.
expertstrategy 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
yes- many battles have this strange incidents.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
yes- they think battles are chess games while they eat lunch.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
I felt sorry for his cavalry that he let get slaughtered under the battery positions.... what a horrible waste by him
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
frontal assaults are usually made to crush the enemy in a head to head fight.... in these attacks one side cannot escape in good order if they lose.... usually they will be mostly taken prisoner or become casualties.
In a flank attack, there is a chance to escape if the defender chooses to escape the danger... flank attacks take a lot of time to perform. Sometimes leaders want a simple strategy that uses little time- so they choose frontal attacks; soldiers pay the price.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Yes; exactly- I was going to mention that- You must know where that 'park' of artillery was stationed.... it was in the center rear.... imagine the Guard getting massacred by a cannonade of 200 fresh guns.
Napoleon knew his Empire's existence was at stake -he was playing a careful chess game; he knew a quick unwise decision could destroy everything. There was too much that could go wrong he imagined.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Most of Wellington's army were dead tired by battle's end. The Allied cavalry were very hesitant to attack the Old Guard battalions. On the other hand, although exhausted by march and battle were obsessed with revenge and were superhuman in taking up the pursuit of the French fugitives...... they were real fanatics.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Yes- Napoleon wanted to destroy the Russians, but wanted to have his army still in one piece. The Russian flanks at Borodino were not crushed, Russian cavalry and artillery were still great in number near battle's end, and Napoleon's army had heavy losses in the veterans Corps. If using the Guard had failed, Napoleon would have been in horrific trouble for the campaign. The intact Guard saved the little of Napoleon's army in the retreat from Moscow.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey The English cavalry inspired when the guard back. That was not inspired. Especially since so far it had not been
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Soldiers in battles never describe hard battles as a glorious. They usually cry and have nightmares and think of so many friends they lost. They feel proud about fighting alongside fellow brave soldiers and they feel guilty and lucky to survive, and they may feel joyful being in a victory, but they never glorify those battles. Politicians and romantic writers and artists love to glorify battles and ignore the horrors. Ney had several horses shot under him- he was suicidally brave
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1 5 in total, with the death of the fifth he ascended the hills on foot. Certainly one of the most courageous but strategically less talented than Davout, Soult and Murat
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
Yes- Ney was not too talented with tactics and strategy; just bravery and determination were his 'skills'.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1 Are you sure? He did beat Wellington in battles,.
12345668587 4 days ago
@12345668587
I couldn't find which comment of mine you were replying to. Can you copy paste it again here for me to see?
slizzler1 4 days ago
@slizzler1 Now that is interesting. 12345668587 may be referring to Ney, who beat the British at the Battle of the River Côa. The British were in the wrong place and out numbered, so they fell back. Ney who was the bravest of the brave but not necessarily the brightest, might have been expecting them to do the same thing at Waterloo, hence the massive and largely pointless cavalry charges.
oarfrost 4 days ago
@oarfrost Yes, Indeed, I am. Ney and Massena had won battles against Wellington, and I will show them: brusquely defeated the British on the River Côa, and fought at Buçaco. During the retreat from Torres Vedras, Ney worsted Wellington's forces in a series of lauded rearguard actions (Pombal, Redinha, Casal Novo, Foz d'Aronce) with which he delayed the pursuing enemy forces enough to allow the main French force to retreat unmolested. You see, he was a not a good commander.
12345668587 3 days ago
@12345668587 But the only problem was that they failed to take the advantage of destroying Wellington.This was clearly a case of Bleinhiem, 1704, the campagin went excatly like Ney and Massena's retreat from Spain and Salamanca proved it for the French.
12345668587 3 days ago
@12345668587, Massena was close to defeating Wellington at the Battle of Fuentos De Onoro. He ordered the Horse Grenadiers of the Guard under Louis Lepic to make a charge, but the commander refused to obey Massena's orders. He only recognized Bessieres as his superior. The opportunity to deal a decisive blow to Wellington was gone.
expertstrategy 3 days ago
@oarfrost He wasn't, despite his bravery, he must have misunderstood the actions of the English when they were retreating. But Ney , in dangerous times, especially in Russia, proved his worth.
12345668587 3 days ago
@oarfrost
Yes- but recall, that Ney only launched the first half of the cavalry charges -and with the actual approval of Napoleon; this fact is not mentioned. The movie keeps the myth going that Napoleon never knew about Ney's charges from the start.
Napoleon personally launched the second half of the cavalry charges.
During these charges Wellington's losses in his center became alarming. In between charges the Allied squares were getting eroded by French artillery.
Not so pointless
slizzler1 2 days ago
@9911aleksey
At Borodino, Napoleon thought it prudent to keep his Guard intact. The Russians were going to be a threat even after the battle for the rest of the campaign. I think he knew he wouldn't end up routing the Russians even if the Guard busted their center in the battle. And he hardly had much cavalry left to make a classic pursuit of a beaten enemy. I think he made a wise choice.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
In actual fact, Wellington's army was flat exhausted by the end of Waterloo... and those in the final general advance had little desire to be the last ones to die in the Allied army after enduring 9 hours of hell in the battle, only to be shot down by the fanatic fresh Old Guard battalions.
slizzler1 3 months ago
And do not forget that the French army had fought the Prussians at Ligny two days previously
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
Ney I agree, because he lost time unnecessarily four arms and throwing the infantry far too late. I think Marshal Louis Nicolas Davout was the man for the job. It would have a bite of the English army
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
without the Prussians, Napoleon had crushed the allies
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
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TheJEANFB 3 months ago
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TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Yes- I see your point.
Keep in mind though that Wellington would have been destroyed if 20,000+ French and the Old Guard were not kept back to watch the Prussians. Wellington was victorious, but only because of the Prussian pressure drawing away French reserves to fight them.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1 I totally agree with you. You are the United States?
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
Around there -yes
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
yes- that doesn't get talked about a lot.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
At 4.30pm, the Prussians were set up in battle order to start their first attack directly at that time. They had arrived earlier but were spread out in marching formation before 4.30pm.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
"The Dutch cavalry brigade of Ghingy was near the Union brigade."
This comment I made was wrong- I meant Van Merlen's Dutch cavalry brigade.
This brigade took part in the charge against D'Erlon's corps. They get no credit in history books.
But in fact they charged into the valley and halted wisely unlike the rest of the Union brigade that went out of control and charged too far.
Only a couple of battalions in Bijlandt's brigade broke- the rest stayed and fought alongside Picton.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey frankly if you want me to believe that the allies are defeated the french before the arrival of Prussian. You are wasting your time. Better go to bed now ^ ^ good night
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey when the guard was involved, the Prussians were already on the field of battlegroup on the left flank. And La Haye Sainte already in french
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
The Allied Left Wing at Waterloo was not mostly British. Picton had two badly reduced British battalions. The British union cavalry brigade was near the center, and the British light cavalry brigades of Vivian and Vandeleur were on the flank too. Bilandt's brigade was amidst Picton's division. To their left was Vincke and Best's Hanoverian brigades. On the flank was the huge brigade of Saxe-Weimer's Nassauers. The Dutch cavalry brigade of Ghingy was near the Union brigade.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
yes- ultra nationalists are cry babies
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
The Prussians arrived and started battle halfway through the battle of Waterloo. They faced about a third of Napoleon's army. The rest of the French were not entirely defeated at 4.30pm. Wellington was still worried about Hougoumont. La Haye Sainte fell at 6.30pm. Napoleon committed the last French cavalry corps at 5.30pm. The Old and Middle Guard were intact.So, at 4:30pm when the Prussians arrived, the French forces facing Wellington were still not entirely beaten.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1 I would have said exactly the opposite. Old and Middle Guard were intact.So at 4:30 pm, when the Prussians arrived, the forces of Wellington deal with french were not yet fully defeated. It seems to me more just ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
The French 1st and 2nd Corps were largely beaten by 4.30pm; But yes- the two cavalry corps [ except for about a division used in D'Erlon's attack] and the Guard cavalry and Old + Middle Guard were not touched byy that time.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1 .The error is that the load was run until 15:00 and only followed by the infantry at 18:30. At that time, the Hague Sainte fell to the French. Ney advanced guns that take enfilade the British positions. Allied situation is critical. Ney asked for reinforcements to finish but with the threat Prussian Napoleon refused. If ney would have followed him by the infantry, it would save time and Napoleon would certainly have given the reinforcements he asked
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey but after repulse of Middle Guard,????
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Capturing the farmhouse did create the crisis for Wellington though. Right after the capture one French battery brought up to the crossroads was literally destroying the center at close range before it was silenced finally. A fresh French division of infantry of Old or Middle Guard would have cracked Wellington's line in two very very likely at the sector.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
Wellingtons Left Wing had as many non-British soldiers as British ones - particularly Hanoverian and Nassau battalions/ batteries- as well as Bijlandt's Dutch-Belgians.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey
I should say I'm not playing favourites about which nations are the best in wars; my point was to the ultra-national war glorifying LordGeorge who is fantasizes about battles British were in like soccer games. He is ignorant about the suffering of soldiers in battles. I used to be like that too though. Maybe he'll understand one day. Brit soldiers were humans who lost many battles, colonies, too and were invaded.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey ^ ^ So we do not agree, because after taking the Haye Sainte, the army was allied in a very bad position and ney has not received the request reinforcements
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey sorry, I do not understand what you mean. In your first comment you said that the Amée of Napoleon had been defeated by the Prussian troops arrive
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey the question is not if the french have pushed the Prussian arrival. But if it arrived on the battlefield could liberate troops and strengthen the middle of Willington, or the french attacked
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey No, but since you've answered a question that was addressed personally to LordGeorgeRodney @ ^ ^ I just Demende
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@Criticallacitirc
Half the squares on Mont St.Jean ridge were not British.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@9911aleksey Protected on the east by the arrival of the Prussian I Corps (Von Zieten), Wellington can get units to strengthen the center. If you've read lots of books and you can not understand that. Why read??
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey good to read books but they must also understand
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey Now you are Ukrainian. ^ ^ I knew you were a fucking troll
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@Criticallacitirc
Half the Allied battalions on Mont St. Jean Ridge facing Ney's AND Napoleon's cavalry charges were not British.
People don't realize that Ney got permission from Napoleon to use the first cavalry units in the first charges. Napoleon arrived just over an hour later and he directly ordered the last half of the cavalry charges with fresh cavalry units.
slizzler1 3 months ago
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@9911aleksey lol you have multiple accounts ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
I think you should get at least one book is about ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
Comment removed
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey Yes but I have no problem with it, not like you. France has madelike that
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey What you say? Plancenoit?
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@9911aleksey England is a former French colony that went wrong ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
I love the effect of a few of the squares routing, it makes it really authentic.
wigster600 3 months ago
the burden of French cavalry was not a failure.The error is that the load was run until 15:00 and only followed by the infantry at 18:30. At that time, the Hague Sainte fell to the French. Ney advanced guns that take enfilade the British positions. Allied situation is critical. Ney asked for reinforcements to finish but with the threat Prussian Napoleon refused. If ney would have followed him by the infantry, it would save time and Napoleon would certainly have given the reinforcements he asked
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB In the end they would have been repelled just like old times Salamanca Fuentes Albuera, Talavera, Bussaco Barossa, Maida, etc etc...
Column vs line was always a failure and the end result saw the French running way from British bayonets...
deal with it...
At Waterloo it was nothing new The French tried with cavalry and infantry combined with artillery and still failed to knock the Anglo allies off the ridge... Hougamont held off 5 French attacks through out the day
Nuff said..
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney^ ^ You say that victories in Spain. France sent as inexperienced conscript . HOUGOUMONT, yes a waste of time for the French army. And we must say a heroic resistance. Normal there was no English has hougemont
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
No? How about the Guards 1st & 2nd Battalions..
In fact there were 4,000 British out of 7,000 in total in and around the farm.
In the farm itself were 2,000 men of the British Foot Guards who repelled every French attack & 'shut the doors' on the French when they broke through..,
: D
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney . The only Britons to be involved on 18 at 11.30 hrs in the defensive system is a light company of Coldstream and a light company of the 3rd (Scots) Guards, which both took up positions around the buildings west. The defense of Hougoumont is madeexclusively by the Orange-Nassau Regiment
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
Wrong the Nassauers were in the woods along with the rest of the Guards
Inside Hougemont the majority were British. four light companies from the 1st and 2nd Brigades pf the Guards..
Try and take the Coldstreams plaque off the building then.
The closing of the gates was fought by British Guardsman who defeated the French when they penetrated the gates..
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB The French always make excuses when it comes to defeats...
I have heard them all before..
London is littered with French cannons captured during the Napoleonic wars Some have been turned in to bollards in Trafalgar square or cast into street lamps on London and Waterloo Bridge...
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney I think you misinterpret my comment. I'm not trying to excuse, explain the mistakes that were madeand it led to defeat. You join in the conversation and good English you wanted to make a victory Waterllo British, which is false. Including a Hougoumont, the only place where the Allies not facing the remote French. Sorry to break a myth my friend ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
Funny comment ..lol 6,000 Anglo Dutch German troops defending the farm and area (4,000 of whom were British) against 3 French divisions tallying over 14,000 men. Sorry to break the myth to you my friend but you lost the battle and you can't seem to deal with it...
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney 1 a ) At 06.00 hrs approximately, the Duke of Wellington has inspected the position and gave the order to occupy the castle and the surrounding area by the 1st Battalion, 2nd Regiment of Nassau before 10.00 hrs, when the Nassau arrive, the light companies of the 2nd and 3rd battalions of the 1st Guards, under Lord Saltoun, evacuate the castle and its outbuildings, reach most of their battalion on the ridge above the field, while the light companies of the Coldstream
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney 1 b ) and the second battalion of the 3rd Guards, under Macdonnell , post themselves in the garden to the west of the great .And I have no problem dealing with this defeat, as long as we stay in the historical fact. For example two French divisions were mobilized etaint and not 3. So 1200 troops, not 1400 ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB Good then at least the Guards were in the farm which is what I said in the first place...
Throughout the day the French committed a total of 3 infantry divisions (5th, 6th, & 9th plus the 2nd cavalry division) to the attack on the farm.. 14,000 men including artillery..
The closing of the gates involved the guards including the "The bravest man at Waterloo" CPL James Graham.
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney ^ ^ You are a troll. Always the same message. I will end this discussion. Do you think the English have dared confront the french in 1 vs 1. The only time the English have dared confront the 1 vs 1 English was during the 100 years war. I must say that was your kings french ^ ^. Food for thought
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB 1 on 1
How about many Peninsula war battles
Battle of Maida is a good one as is Alexandria in Egypt. Not only that
Do I dare mention the many naval battles Saintes, Quiberon, Trafalgar (that was 2 on 1 by the way!!)
Also don't forget we took all your colonies one by one
1 vs 1
you got it!
LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney What about the conquest of England
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney
You really should stop embarrassing yourself with your 'Immortal Glory' crap.
One can mention many epic defeats of Britain.... not to mention all the invasions of Britain that succeeded.
You, yourself should be aware that if you think you're English from caveman days, that in fact you are 50% likely Saxon in origins from the times of the Saxon invasions of England in the Dark Ages. England has been a Roman colony, a Saxon one, and a French one in its history.
slizzler1 3 months ago
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LordGeorgeRodney 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney
Pire's cavalry division - that was attached to Reille's Corps was not used at all in attacking Hougoumont. They were used as an extended observation force on the French Left flank.
RFLMAO at your idea of 'the bravest man at Waterloo'..... you really make Brits look stupid; you and other nationalists say very dopey things about the battle. Every soldier that fought at Waterloo deserves recognition; especially the piles of dead at Plancenoit and La Haye Sainte.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney
"Funny comment ..lol 6,000 Anglo Dutch German troops defending the farm and area (4,000 of whom were British) against 3 French divisions tallying over 14,000 men. "
Wrong.
Only two divisions of Gen.Reille's 2nd Corps was used to directly attack Hougoumont. Bachelu's division was used in a bungled attack north-east of Hougoumont in a lacking effort to support the last of the French cavalry charges.
What's so funny regarding an outnumbered force holding a fortified post?
slizzler1 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney
"Column vs line was always a failure and the end result saw the French running way from British bayonets..."
You clearly are one of these British ultra-nationals that occasionally show up here glorifying war and pumping out long smashed myths of the battle.
For one thing;
D'Erlon's columns were pushing back the brigades of Picton and Bijlandt at 2pm. Only the spectacular counter attack by Uxbridge's cavalry destroyed those columns.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@LordGeorgeRodney
Are you not aware that the attack of the outnumbered Imperial Middle Guard was split into attacks on various parts of Mont St.Jean ridge. The Grenadiers of the Middle Guard were beaten back by Gen.Detmers brigade of Dutch Belgians, the Chasseurs of the Middle Guard were destroyed by British and Hanoverian units.
There's no glory in war; only romanticists and propagandists try to make horrific battles glorious. Waterloo was a horrifying battle fought bravely by many nations.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
The farmhouse was called 'La Haie [ or Haye] Sainte'.
The rest of your summary is correct.
slizzler1 3 months ago
@slizzler1 thank you, but they understand nothing ^ ^
TheJEANFB 3 months ago
@TheJEANFB
Aleksey knows an extreme amount of facts about the battle and the Napoleonic Wars in actual fact.
slizzler1 3 months ago
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TheJEANFB 3 months ago
Wellington, great commander bad politician... good thing is he brought reform to the British Army which was much needed
lonestar2779 3 months ago
Wooooow squar formation my ass.... it took me like 5 turns to research that...
DeltaSquadTrooper 3 months ago
they are like water breaking on rocks...
airosfter131 4 months ago
horses are not stupid animals they know whats sharp and dangerous and against their riders will , they will turn another direction to avoid that sharp object so those squares are death to any rider who charges into them.
GuyPennebaker 4 months ago
history is written by the victors, never forget that shit.
Paran0idblues 4 months ago
Ney launches cavalry charges by forgetting his infantry big mistake
TheJEANFB 4 months ago
@Criticallacitirc Good point - it's hard to imagine the sheer scale of it. What happened in the end - were the French cavalry just completely slaughtered?
Oley31 5 months ago
Can anyone explain why the french cavalry didn't retreat when they discovered the British in squares instead of just galloping round the squares being shot at? Was it communication restrictions or did they hope to break into the squares?
Oley31 5 months ago
awesome birds eye view.
GoldenbanjoDJ 5 months ago 14
magnificient - i wish we had real videos of 18th of june,1815
FeynmanQuantum 5 months ago
let's face it, Wellington was a camper :-D
eyederrick 5 months ago 37
@eyederrick and still won.
mrwells111 5 months ago
@eyederrick and Napoleon was stupid enough to run into his gun! :P
thebigJM92 4 months ago
@9911aleksey
haha- Napoleon was never cautious enough; part of his characteristic flaw was to believe in luck/ fate helping him succeed.
The Old Guard in reserve was his genius side in control; sending the Middle Guard was the compromise to his ego -still believing in miracles
Studying how minds work in mental stressful situations explains a lot in history regarding bizarre decisions being made.
Recall, that the cavalry charges were getting destroyed - meaning the Allied line was still strong
slizzler1 6 months ago
@slizzler1, I don't think Napoleon's decision to commit the Middle Guard has anything to do with believing in miracles. The Imperial Guard was basically his final reserve, and he cannnot afford to divert soldiers from other parts of the battlefield to fend off the Prussians converging on his right flank. If you've run out of available troops, and you still have your trump card to turn the tables, then you should take some risk in order to gain victory.
expertstrategy 6 months ago
@expertstrategy
Certainly a miracle - if we look at the battlefield at 6.30pm.
Wellington's center was in a total crisis- but his flanks were solid.
Meanwhile, Napoleon had zero reserves left beyond the Imperial Guard infantry.
On his Left, Reille's Corps was smashed at Hougoumont, in the center, D'Erlon's Corps was depleted but in control of La Haye Sainte and suppressing Wellington's center. But on his right, no miracle could stop the Prussians> Napoleon MIGHT beat Wellington, but not Blucher
slizzler1 6 months ago
@slizzler1, I can see your point. An exhausted and badly depleted French army cannot hope to defeat a fresh Prussian army numbering 50,000 strong. Btw, didn't you say that Churchill wanted to gas the Iraqis somewhere in the 1920s. I remember you said that once a long while ago.
expertstrategy 6 months ago
@expertstrategy
In actuality, only the Prussian 4th Corps of Bulow was somewhat fresh. The other 2 Prussian Corps were in the defeat and retreat at Ligny. On June 18th the arriving Prussians had marched through difficult terrain since early morning to get to the battle. Their arrival was not 50,000 at once; Pirsch's 2nd Corps arrived mostly near the battle's conclusion.
Yes- on Churchill; he also mused with British politicians and air-fleet commanders over dropping poison gas on German cities.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@slizzler1 "Yes- on Churchill; he also mused with British politicians and air-fleet commanders over dropping poison gas on German cities." it's one thing to bomb cities, but urging the usage of poison gas is absolutely a brutal thing. He'd be just as bad as the Nazis if this ever occured.
expertstrategy 6 months ago
@expertstrategy
yes- this is actually another reason why right wingers and extremists are a vile poison to progressive humanity; they bring out the worst in normal people; hate-cults like the neonazis and al quaeda purposefully try to provoke the worst in civilized humans in a reaction to them; then they get what they want; dragging others down to their sewer level.... ie, they can't be declared the lowliest scum in society as a result.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@expertstrategy Here's the exact Churchill quote from the 1920s: "I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes." (he was referring to actions against rebels in Iraq) It's quite appalling that this man is considered one of the greatest Britons nowadays, with history turning a blind eye to his darker side. His enthusiastic support for carpet bombing civilian centres in Germany should also be remembered...
Zappiss 5 months ago
Even great people have a dark side. Churchill was quite bloodthirsty, and he allowed revenge to cloud his moral judgement when he consented to the bombings of German cities.
expertstrategy 5 months ago
@expertstrategy to be fair, they did bomb london
Haloskulls117 5 months ago
@Haloskulls117, that's true.
expertstrategy 5 months ago
@expertstrategy
so? it's revenge for the THIRTY MILLION dead russian comrades-in-arms!
WolfytheWolf5667 5 months ago
@WolfytheWolf5667, I don't see what the Russian dead have anything to do with Churchill's decision to ruthlessly bomb German cities. That type of revenge is more than enough for anybody to condemn Churchill as a war criminal. Killing people out of revenge is still a war crime.
I see Churchill as a great hero, but like most great leaders, his hands are soaked in blood, just like Alexander, Napoleon, Cromwell, etc...
expertstrategy 5 months ago
@expertstrategy Churchill alwyas was "bloodthirsty" It has nothing to do with revenge. In fact he pioneered the bombing of civilians and use of poison gas against civilians in in British Mesopotamia in 1920.
In his enthusiasm for utilizing gas bombing, Churchill was unwilling to admit that even gas irritants could prove deadly to children, the elderly, and the infirm. Gas caused blindness and other physical problems which could not be cured, but this was irrelevant to Churchill.
factualinfo 5 months ago
@Zappiss In the full quote Churchill states "The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected" Churchill was advocating the use of lachrymatory gas. Known today as tear gas and used by modern police forces to combat riots. Not Mustard gas.
lemrino 5 months ago
@9911aleksey
He couldn't send the Guard... he felt frozen in a dilemma; remember at Borodino he coldly criticized a suggestion he throw in his Imperial Guard at critical moment in the battle - his idea was to keep his reserves intact in the event of a further crisis in the future.
At Waterloo, at 6.30pm, Napoleon was watching in terror the massive onslaught of 3 Prussian Corps that he knew was unstoppable in destroying his right flank; that's why as you know, he held back his Old Guard too.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@slizzler1, true, had Napoleon sent the Imperial Guard, he could have turned Borodino into an Austerlitz-like defeat for the Russians. Even if Napoleon did accomplish his objective in defeating the Russian army in a pitched battle, I don't think Alexander I would sue for peace. The Russians didn't sue for peace despite losing millions of men and a lot of territory to the Axis invasion army in 1941. In the winter, the Russians will simply call in the massive reserves to deal with the invaders.
expertstrategy 6 months ago
@expertstrategy
The Russian strategy in the Fall of 1812 was somewhat similar to the final Soviet tactic in 1942..... let the invader advance deeper and slowly deteriorate due to environmental/ Lines-of-communications distance factors.....I wonder if Borodino would have been an Austerlitz if the Guard attacked- the Russians had masses of artillery in reserve lines - the losses might have been too heavy for Napoleon's army if they did try a decisive final stroke.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
Such an attack must have sufficient proper strength and support too- as well as complex tactical fore-thought..... ie, D'Erlon's infantry attack had cavalry support that was too far away.
slizzler1 6 months ago
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@9911aleksey
It was an odd place to push Bachelu's division..... it was aimed at the point north east of Hougoumont where Wellington's line was out of most of the French artillery's long range firing.... so the attack was hitting a massively defended area, and against units that had hardly any casualties- compared to the units directly on top of Mont St.Jean- like Halkett's/ Kielmansegge's/ Ompteda's brigade...... but these positions were far away from Bachelu's starting point.
slizzler1 6 months ago
Comment removed
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
Yes- Napoleon had a superb artillery commander -Drouot- who should have -if he didn't- suggested close artillery support in the 2 hours of charges. It is an eternal mystery that all experts ask.
The last fresh 'line' infantry troops in the charges was Bachelu's division- it was used in support of the last charges near Hougoumont, but the attack was destroyed very easily.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
As Wellington said- he only barely hung on. Napoleon almost beat him with inferior numbers facing Wellington.
Due to so many French deployed to face the Prussians, Wellington actually outnumbered the rest of the French army deployed against him - except perhaps artillery.
It was strange that the French did not immediately set fire to La Haye Sainte and Hougoumont so that they didn't have to attack burning undefended buildings.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
Yes.
I'm surprised Gen.Drouot- Napoleon's superb artillery commander had not made an observation/advice on using French artillery in close support of the cavalry..... or was he with Napoleon focused on the Prussian threat at the time. - Napoleon used over a quarter of his army to fight the Prussian flank attack..... these were the troops Ney needed to break Wellington's weak center after the fall of La Haye Sainte.
Hougoumont was broken into by the French, but not captured.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
Remember though....
Napoleon had the surprise of his life finding out the Prussians were coming into his flank.
He was not really ill enough to lose the battle -that day as most people suggest. He found himself having to supervise defending his right flank defenses against the Prussians during the afternoon. Ney, Soult and Reille did not act as great solo-commanders. Nap's reserves mostly went to fighting the Prussians [Lobau/ Young Guard] - these would have destroyed the Allies.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
I gotta go after this; but keep in mind Napoleon would have destroyed Wellington by evening if the Prussians had not arrived halfway through the battle. Napoleon's losses would have been horrific still though; D'Erlon smashed on Ohain ridge, Reille's Corps at Hougoumont, Two Heavy cavalry Corps and Guard cavalry divisions all smashed up by 6 pm. Only Lobau + the entire Guard Foot would have been available to destroy Wellington.
Wellington only fought, believing Blucher would come
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey
Run fast!
If artillery was on Mont St.Jean firing down on Wellington's packed masses of rear-slope deployed troops, it would've been a slaughter.
Just one French battery that had set up on the crossroads area after La Haye Sainte's fall was wreaking a huge slaughter in Wellington's center- creating the crisis moment for Wellington.
slizzler1 6 months ago
You can defend Ney by saying that the cavallery was the only reserve availlabe at that moment exept the guard.
A combined attack of cavallery and guard at that moment would have breached the english/german lines.
Sokra01 6 months ago
napoleon Should had shot Ney for recklessness by sending 12,000 french calvary up the ridge in pursuit of Wellington,whom he believe was retreating. But he was pulling his men out of artilery range and into infantry squares, which were killing fields.
haynes1776 7 months ago
@haynes1776
Actually that's partly not true.
Napoleon directly gave permission for Ney to send a cavalry corps against Wellington.
It is not often mentioned, but as a fact, that's what happened - reading records of French generals and commanders there when the attacks took place.
The other Heavy French cavalry Corps was sent later on by Napoleon himself who arrived on the spot halfway during the series of cavalry attacks.
slizzler1 6 months ago
@9911aleksey I agree, although to some extent he had to make sure he had strong people at home in positions of power because he faced potential invasion from Italy, Spain, Austria and Russia as well as from enemies at home. So the likes of Davout and Soult were used to those ends.
Napoleon's lacklustre after Ligny was inexplicable - he didn't move to engage W at Quatre Bras but wasted time - as did Ney - and allowed W to escape to better ground.
THthefirst 7 months ago
I can't understand why Ney sacrificed the cavalery only for his personal glory.
iloveeverything219 7 months ago
The Brits are just like playing aim and shoot.
thedukeboxx 7 months ago
So... it wasn't Nap's fault. T'was Ney's!
thedukeboxx 7 months ago
Great Battle scenes !
MyVorpal 7 months ago
"Think of England.......... BANG!!!!!!!
SMGSilveRLeadeR 7 months ago
The prussians didnt deliberately arrive late, the condition of the roads and the fact that the 4th Corp was the freshest but also the furthest away
Zanathalor 7 months ago
kingball7-knob
pennyspring1 7 months ago
if napoleon hadnt totally lost his army and cavalry in 1812 Russia hed have easily won.
The french outnumbered the allies at the start of this battle but wellington was by far the better general.
Both sides literally fought themselves to a standstill.
Then the Prussians arrived and turned it into a mass slaughter.
The first time Naopoleon faces faces Wellington and its an entirely predictable crushing defeat for Napoleon.
One of my fave battles of all time!
zenoist2 7 months ago
@zenoist2 He returned from Elba and had an army of around 70,000. Wellington had around 120,000. Not only did Napoleon Break Wellingtons lines 3 times. Before the Prussians got there. An un-authorized Advance of Lieutenant General Picton's Brigade, stopped the French long enough for the Prussians to arrive, after Napoleon advanced most of his army to engage Picton's men, he didn't have enough to fight the Prussians. Wellington Rushed to get his report done, and said he basically won the battle.
kingbball7 7 months ago
@kingbball7 Alone, which was a lie, the Scottish, French, Brunswickers, and Prussian reports were nearly Identical. The British Regimental Commander Reports resembled Wellingtons more, what I am getting at, is not only was his report a Lie, he knew that if he lost this battle he would not survive, his monarch would have discharged him from the army, and if he was captured Napoleon would have had him executed. Plain and Simple, Wellington= Loser, Napoleon= Unlucky, Gebhard Von Blucher=Savior.
kingbball7 7 months ago
@kingbball7 And Picton= Hero of Waterloo.
kingbball7 7 months ago
@kingbball7
He was one of many of tens of thousands of brave soldiers that day. There were heroes on that day on all sides.... particularly amongst the piles of 4, 5, 6 deep of French dead bodies at Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte.
slizzler1 7 months ago
@kingbball7 Wellington commanded 68,000 men not 120,000 men, there was only 118,000 men if you combine Wellingtons and Bluchers army and for the most part of the day he stood and took a pounding from Napoleons army waiting for the Prussians to arrive. The whole plan was for Wellington to stand and take the pounding so that both armys could combine and attack Napoleon, hows Blucher the saviour when his army was made to purposly arrive slowly which almost cost the Anglo-allies the war
Reverbful 7 months ago
@Reverbful
The Prussians get a lot of BS criticism by people who have no clue about their activities in the campaign.
You can research the following if you want/ care to know the actual truth about who cost what in the brief campaign.
slizzler1 7 months ago
@Reverbful
On June 15th, the Prussian outposts put up a stiff rearguard fight in their effort to delay the start of Napoleon's offensive. Wellington's response was very slow in comparison. In fact his orders to his own army was to retreat to a rear position if Napoleon's army showed up. That would have been a disaster since that was Napoleon's genius plan- to divide Wellington and Blucher.
However, a Dutch-Belgians/Nasseur division stationed around Quatre Bras defied Wellington's orders.
slizzler1 7 months ago
@Reverbful
The action of the veteran commanders of Perponcher's division on June 15th saved the campaign and Wellington's strategic blunder. They made a stand at Quatre-Bras and thus retained a link between Wellington and Blucher - this allowed Wellington to realize his initial mistake, and then concentrate his army at Quatre Bras on June 16th. This had the effect of saving Blucher from total annihilation at Ligny.
Napoleon's initial genius plan to split the Allies in Belgium was destroyed.
slizzler1 7 months ago
@Reverbful
What you and others don't bother to do is to ever study the campaign from its very start. June 15th was a critical day in the campaign- and the Prussians rose to the occasion.
Regarding their defeat on the 16th; they should have retreated back to Prussia to save the remnants of their beaten army. But their critics -like yourself- don't understand that Blucher instead chose a potentially suicidal act - to link up with Wellington instead and cut himself off from escape to Prussia.
slizzler1 7 months ago