idk hw come ppl talk ill of ali...watch his fight closely...maybe some of u dnt have the knowledge of boxin... @fighter3233 why dont u box with ali? ur not gud enough to judge him...he even knocked out shaver, while shaver was in his prime. he was full of confident, courage, talent and skills...so fuck off
@123UncleRuckus Fuck your mother is was a draw you cocksucker and Ali would have whupped him if they had a rematch back then you living shit-eater! You probably never fought in your entire life and all you do and rant your stinking mouth on comments think that your the greatest! Muhammad Ali is a legend best in his time and you'll never be like him ever!
@fighter3223 Haha another Ali nut-hugger. Do some actual research on the fight and how Ali had to have the rules rigged in his favour because he knew he would lose. Stop listening to all the Ali hype, he wasn't as good as people say he was, and look at him now Frazier fucked him right up.
@davidtec22 con que te da verguenza... andate a vivir a otra parte, cambiate de nacionalidad... no necesitamos mas mierda de la que ya hay... vos sos de los que se compran el lcd de 46 pulgadas para ver tinelli? sos un idiota
No jodan.. ringo peleo contra el mejor de todos los tiempos... y no digan que esa noche Ali "se resbalo" porque sintio la mano y fijense que lo tuvo contra las cuerdas a punto de caer, pero Ringo no pudo.
Fue uno de los mejores de Argentina con puro huevo y corazon.
That step back left hook was beautiful. Ali never had a particularly strong left hand, so you know Bonavena had NO idea that shot was coming. Put him flat on his trunks out of nowhere.
You want to understand how race plays into boxing? Consider this: most great boxers in US history grew up very poor. This would provide drive to "fight" for respect in life.
Circa 1900-30, boxing was dominated by whites because blacks were still considered "sub-human" by society in Jim Crow-era US. (eg. Jack Johnson)
As time progressed, whites moved into the middle class and black Americans moved "up" to lower class.
Boxing ability doesn't rely on race, it's a snapshot of the lower class.
Black Joe Louis, one of the all-time greats, was beaten by 3 fighters, 2 white, 1 black.
White Rocky Marciano is the only heavy pro with no career losses. He beat Louis, but at the same time idolized him.
The greats didn't care about race, life was deeper than skin to them. They were/are much more courageous than that. You armchair warriors aught to take a look at your own character.
Stop with the racist bullshit. White guys CAN fight. It just so happens that the very best fighters have been black. However, if you have a top 10 p4p list, you have to have Greb, Dempsey, or Marciano in it depending on who you ask.
However look at the Klitchko's. Not only are they big, but they are very skilled. Plus Vitiali especially has heart and a chin to go with his skills and they dominate the heavyweighs.
Mythically head-to-head, I would still pick Ali to beat both of them though.
Who was the white guy again? Stop joking, a white guy vs Muhammad Ali- never in a million years could that end well. Lucky Ali didn't put him in the grave that night.
@IASOU2005 white guy??whats wrong with white guys?white guys can fight too.special forces seals for example are almost all white guys.101st airbourne on Dday were all white guys.russian spets are all white guys too. we dont currently prefer boxing heavily,but i dont see anything flawed in the basic fighting spirit of white guys.i dont see that race is a thing to push here.you said stop joking,in your post.Do you think white guys are a joke sir?i dont think white guys are a joke,nor blacks either
JAJAJAJAJAJA...NOTE COMO ALY LE DICE AL ARBITRO QUE LO DEJE TRANQUILO PARA NOQUEAR A BONAVENA....JAJAJAJAJ EL ARBITRO ESTABA LIGERAMENTE COMPRADITO A FAVOR DE ALY...OBSERVEN OBSERVEN...COMPRARON AL ARBITRO
@Aleejito18 como que no observe la pelea completa y fijate cuando bonavena puso mal a aly..lo que paso fue que no lo remato observa...pero no es mentira lo que escribi,,,fijate como aly aparta al albitro para cabar con bonavena...
it was two lefts that did the trick - the first one at 0.02 did all the damage - Oscar then walked onto the second one - masterful piece of skill by Ali - two short lefts in quick succession
Fact is Frazier couldn't knock out Bonavena with his vaunted left hook, but the genius of Ali found a way. One of the best timed left hooks in boxing history. Watch how Ali steps backs just enough to let Bonavenas left miss by a hair before he delivers the bomb.
Bonavena was the greatest boxer to ever live, look it up u idiots, he would defeated the likes of Ali, Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Charles, Louis, Dempsey, Tunney, Braddock, Holyfield, Lennox, Walcott, If he were in his prime, morons.
@youknowbruh Ali would taunt opponents in an extremely personal manner regardless if they had or hadn't said anything to him anyway, and he rarely apologised after the fights.
@Robstailey Read the comment you idiot, he done this to people who respected him, he never apologised, didn't even have the guts to apologise to Joe Frazier after the Thriller In Manilla. He taunted his wife, kids and family and racially abused him.
Obviously its all conjecture at this junction .Vegetayy you are aware that Tyson and lewis spared an entire week as amatures and from everything Ive come across by the end of the week Lewis was in control.Tyson,while an incrediable force of nature lacked the ability to make adjustments in a fight,Louis as great as he was I feel was too small by modern standards Big George would have been Iron Mikes undoing .
@rediculousnicholas Ali wasn't known for being a brawler. He was known for dancing, flash and fighting in controlled spirts, but at times he was a BEAST meaning he would be very aggressive and be the one pushing forward constantly. How could you not know what that meant? WOW!
Lewis Ali? that is a tough question.I have enormous respect for both of these fighters abilities.So much so that my top ten all time list has Ali 1 Lewis2 followed by Big George.
@kevindlinc ali is number one yes.but lewis?no.i think larry holmes is better then lewis.and surely tyson too.so.ALI,TYSON,HOLMES,FORMAN,LOUIS,LEWIS,HOLYFIELD,FRAZIER.
@vegetayy i agree tyson and foremon are so much better than lewis back in their days let along Ali the best of all. Fast, footwork, puncher, smart and not to mention pretty:).
watch ali's weight shift onto his back foot right before he delivers the left. try standing up and bounching like that, you'll get an idea of what kind of force that shot had behind it.
vidnut you are correct that Ali became lazy, but only after he had already won the heavyweight championship Twice and was in obvious decline anyway. You cannot say he wasted his talent....How so? He knocked Liston off the top spot when everyone was convinced he was just a loudmouth. His 60s reign was pretty slick and smooth, and you have to say that the government stole most of his momentum by banning him for 3 1/2 years.
Ali VS Lewis or Klitchko and Ali would get beat up. Sorry, but he's not the greatest of all time. Klitchko or Lewis at 250 vs Ali at 215, they are just too big and strong for Ali sorry to burst your bubble Ali
@eldiezmaradona youre kidding me. both the klit's are disgraces to boxing, he would dance around them like the fools they are. give me a fucking break man. lewis, im not so sure, that'd be a fight worth watching though.
I disagree with people who say Ali was the greatest of all time. Thats pure bullshit, I think Vitali Klitchko and Lennox Lewis in there primes would kick Ali's ass easy. The truth is Today's heavyweights are much bigger and stronger than the previous eras. Just consider that Lewis & Klitchko weight around 250 on fight night! Ali, Frazier, Bonavena fought at around 215. Come on, do you think Ali would have a chance against Lewis or Klitchko at 250? I dont think so
@eldiezmaradona@eldiezmaradona You clearly know nothing about boxing. Klitchko lost to 210 lbs Chris Byrd. Lewis lost to 6'2 Hasim Rahman and Wladmir Klitchko got knocked out cold by Corrie Sanders who is not even as good as Jerry Quarry. Size doesnt matter, if you can fight then you can fight.
como lo cagaro a bonavena con esta pelea el jues ne aplica el reglamento y ali nunca peleo sino se penso que era una lucha y no una pelea alas trompadas estuvo a cococho de bonavena
@MichaeljacksonAFG fuck U, he was a bad winner because he was a loser, I'm sure that I will finish much better than him, lol, if an idiot liie him is better than u is your fucking problem.
ARE U WHITE?? then he hates you!!! he hates white people coz....he was racist
a racist person is a person who doesn't hate black people, is a person who hates to another one for the color of the skin, example Ali
@eversuckameancock. spell check my cock and bonavena my dick. fuck you and your opinion die slow and eat a mean dick. look sad at my anal spinkter faggot.
@everstacy hey fella,don't get too riled up! Ali was taught to be judgemental because in those days blacks were being tortured by caucasians.you have no idea what it meant to be black in the sixties and 70's...every black person is not a martin L. king jr. nonetheless,as time progressed,ALi began to be more focused on the indivisual and not the whole race.due to personal experiences.Angelo dundee was caucasian,and ALI loved him.
Joe Freizer helped Ali with the license and also he gave money to him, then Ali called Fraizer "uncle Tom" you are right people, Ali was a great person, lol
The Best?? Freizer, Jordan, Miagic Johnson!! they were real champions
@everstacy grow up young mind.champions are not noble,they're great! tony the tiger type shit.lol.and listen johny come lately,everybody knows frazier did ALI those favors.hey stupid,it was in frazier's best finacial intrest.frazier was an uncle tom in ALI's eyes because frazier was telling the press,"cassius is the name his parents named him,so thats what i'll call him." he started it,so ALI finished it! never thought about that hanh?
@everstacy learn too spell what the fuck is "liie" dumb ass when u learn how too spell then u can talk... and who the hell are you too call ali a loser i bet you can't do what he did u wouldn't make it you would fold like a poker game ali had balls bigger then you mouth so choose your words wiser next time you talk ooooohhh yeah i forgot you can't spell sorry for ya
@everstacy On the racist front, Ali said "Hating people because of their colour is wrong, It doesn't matter which colour does the hating, It's just plain wrong"
Yeah, sign of a true racist.
Ali did have strong views in his early life, he has since taken a further perspective, whites hated Ali so he hated whites back.
Oh, and I am white, but that makes no difference at all
I wish he'd retired too. His post-Manila run didn't do him or boxing in general much good, and likely contributed to his present condition. I think he'd have liked to as well, given how he retired about two dozen times in the 70s. But he couldn't stop coming back, probably a combination of his ego, the money and being surrounded by hangers-on and stooges telling him he was untouchable.
Joe Louis is one of the very best. I rate Ali above him primarily on the factor of competition. But it's interesting to note that Eddie Futch, a huge Joe Louis booster, eventually conceded that Ali would have defeated Louis. His reasoning: if Conn's quickness and boxing ability could give Louis so much trouble, Ali's would cause him even more problems. I think it pained him to admit this, but admit it he did. I, for one, am not going to take issue with the analysis of the great Mr. Futch.
I'm always mystified by the Conn/Ali comparison. Conn was a classic textbook fighter who held his hands high, Ali highly unorthodox with low hands. Conn used his small size to dip in and out. Ali couldn't do that. Conn beat Louis on the inside. Ali couldn't fight inside. Conn's best punch against Louis was his left hook. How often did Ali throw a hook? They were totally different fighters. What Conn did against Louis has little relevance to what Ali might do.
Should've known better to cite Futch without looking it up first. It was a minor sidebar item in a column in a boxing magazine. It was not long before he died, I believe. I'll try to find it but it could take a while.
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea Ali had some poor outings and a few suspect decisions. I just don't think such things tarnish his accomplishments overall. In retrospect, I wish the judges had given decisions to Young and Norton, thus pushing Ali into retirement.
Thing is, how would Ali's legacy be regarded if he'd lost some of those fights? Norton's next most impressive win against a top contender was a faded Quarry, which is pretty damning for Ali considering he could have lost all three fights. How would the likes of Young, Shavers or Jones be regarded if they'd beaten him?
It would better reflect how there isn't much to choose between Ali and his 70s peers, rather than him being this dominant untouchable leviathan some of his fans rave about.
Flavius operates on a strict hindsight policy which disregards the fact that Ali fought just about everyone, defeated most of them, and what's more, defeated the ones who were defeated by the others. They are the facts. All the bullshit in the world will never change that, so carry on your attempts to rewrite history but remember what Frazier said after Manila...'Lawdy he's a great champ' and what Foreman said 'I made alot of excuses and then I realised I'd been beaten by a great fighter'.
@FlaviusConstantius -- I admire your persistence and give you credit for carrying on with your mission to convince the rest of us that Ali was a mediocre fighter, a cheat, a coward, and an all around jerk. For me, Ali is the best heavyweight ever. As for his character, that's not for me to judge, but I admire the fact he ducked no one. To suggest he ducked Frazier is ridiculous. Joe had only 14 fights when Ali fought Folley. No one was looking for that match at that point in time, no one.
Never called Ali a coward. He was obviously very brave and I credit him for taking tough fights for most of his career. It's his fans who overrate him that I take issue with. Claims like "he ducked no one" don't really stand up to scrutiny when it looks to me that he was avoiding rematches with Foreman and Norton.
BTW, in Sports Illustrated in March '67, before the Folley fight, Frazier was described as "an immensely better fighter than any whom Ali has defended his title against".
Pt. taken regarding SI calling Frazier a superior boxer. But come on -- you can't say Ali ducked Norton, Foreman. Sure, he didn't go out of his way to face them again after beating them, but why would he? That's not 'ducking'. Holmes ducked Greg Page. Mayweather is ducking Pacquaio. But Ali ducked noone. If there was interest and the money was there, he fought. He was a proud competitor who wanted to prove himself, and sadly didn't know how to quit. He chose to fight Bonavena, Lyle, Shavers...
He was the champion, loudly proclaimed by himself and his fans as the best ever. They were top contenders, both loudly calling him out. There was pressure from the boxing public for those fights, especially after the controversial third Norton bout, and both would probably have brought Ali a record purse.
Yet he was busy fighting Wepner, Dunn, Coopman, etc or talking up potential fights with the likes of Alfio Righetti and Lorenzo Zanon.
@FlaviusConstantius -- Say what you want, the man fought EVERYONE. In the best heavyweight division in history, in my opinion. There isn't a single top contender of the 60s and 70s that Ali did not fight. This is the main reason I regard him as the best ever, the level of competition he faced and triumphed over. Name one other heavyweight champion who defeated three fighters as good as Liston, Frazier, and Foreman.
Again with this 'he ducked no one' stuff. Throughout 1977 the WBC were threatening to strip Ali of the title for not fighting their #1 contender Norton. Norton beat #2 ranked Young in a title eliminator and still Ali didn't face him.
Frazier won when it mattered most and had faded by the time Ali beat him. The 2nd Liston fight still stinks 45 years on. The Foreman fight had unique circumstances favorable to Ali and still there's the issue of the rematch that wasn't...
Again with this he ducked Norton and Foreman stuff. He beat both guys. It's not Ali's fault Foreman made a fool of himself in Toronto or had his stock lowered after almost getting knocked out by Lyle. It's not Ali's fault the judges twice gave him decisions over Norton or that Norton got demolished by the same guy Ali knocked out. Yeah, at age 36 he was putting off fighting them again, but you can't call it DUCKING when he already beat both guys. Don't know why you're bringing up Liston...
Good job Frazier, Norton and Leon didn't take the same attitude, otherwise he'd have never got rematches with them after losing the first time. Imagine that, the GOAT with a losing record against Neon Leon!
When a champion is ignoring his top contenders and facing soft touches like Coopman, Evangelista and Dunn, or trying to arrange fights with Hall of Fame legends like Alfio Righetti, you might call it "putting off fighting them", but it's no different to ducking.
You bring up Frazier. Is he guilty of ducking Ali after their first fight? Frazier had no interest in giving Ali a rematch. Instead he fought guys like Ron Stander and Terry Daniels. Does that mean he was ducking Ali? I don't think so. To me he was exercising his privilege to take other fights because he won their first fight. The same logic applies with Ali. It's not ducking. Spinks could have done the same but naturally he went for the big money to be made from a rematch.
If Frazier had carried on fighting easy touches while ignoring Ali, then yes. He did fight #1 ranked Foreman after Stander and Daniels.
All champions are entitled to an easier fight now and then, and they all do it. But what would you call it when a champion is consistently not meeting the best challengers, and instead facing a string of no hopers? There was no other reason not to face Foreman/Norton, as both would've earned him a lot more money and kudos than the fights he was taking.
@FlaviusConstantius -- Okay, you win. Ali ducked Norton and Foreman. But he fought and beat them both. So we retract the 'he ducked no one' stuff and simply say: he fought everyone in the best heavyweight division in history. And he beat them all. Ergo, he is the best heavyweight champion in history.
BTW, in the eyes of many he didn't beat Norton in their 3rd fight, another reason why there should have been a prompt rematch.
Joe Louis dominated his division more throughly than Ali ever did, avoided no one, had far few stinkers, and settled any controversial results with brutal KOs in timely rematches. The real Greatest.
Yes, he fought EVERYONE, including Norton and Foreman. Beat them both.
Norton 3, extremely close fight. I respect anyone who thinks Norton won it, but it was hardly the huge robbery some make it out to be.
Louis is of course an all-time great, but he fought in a rather weak division. His best opponents: Baer, Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Charles, Marciano. Lost to three on that list, which, IMO, doesn't compare well to Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Bonavena, Lyle, Shavers, etc.
If Frazier, Norton and Leon only fought Ali once - after all, they all fought him and beat him the first time, thus there'd apparently be no need for a rematch - would you be loudly proclaiming that they "fought everyone" or "ducked no one"?
Granted Louis didn't face anyone as good as Foreman or Frazier (Liston a HOF great too but both Ali fights were suspicious to say the least), but there's little to choose between the others Ali faced and Louis' best comp, IMO.
@FlaviusConstantius, yes, if Frazier, Norton, or anyone else took on all the fighters Ali fought, then of course I would say they fought 'everyone'. For the sake of argument, I already conceded your point that Ali ducked rematches with Foreman and Norton. But no other boxer of that era faced as many fighters as Ali. He faced everyone of note from the early 60s to the late 70s, and with the exception of Holmes, defeated them all. That should count for something, even with those who detest Ali.
I said before I credit Ali for his willingness to take tough fights for most of his career. Besides the Foreman and Norton rematches there aren't many holes to pick in his opposition. Where I take issue are statements like "he ducked no one" or "he fought everyone".
Where I'm sure we would also disagree is many of his performances in said fights and the various controversial results that went his way...
Wrong. Louis faced a collection of white stiffs known as the "Bum of the Month" club. He was small compared to Ali, and boxers gave him a tough time. Billy Conn had him beat before blowing it, and Joe Walcott was robbed in their first fight.
People throw around the term "bum of the month" without knowing what it meant when it was coined. Few of them were actually "bums". In any case, about half of Ali's title defenses were against the likes of Brian London and Chuck Wepner, so folks in glass houses, etc.
Did you see the Walcott rematch? Joe resolved that issue the way he settled all the few controversial results he had, by knocking his opponent senseless in a timely rematch.
Unique circumstances? Plueeze....George was a killer who ran out of steam once Ali got him into the later rounds. He did the same thing against Jimmy Young a few years later. Why are you so dismissive of Ali's greatness?
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Frazier's own trainer Durham is the one who avoided Ali in 67. Ali wanted Frazier back in 67 and would have whipped him easily. Problem is Durham knew that as well, and when asked if he wanted his guy Frazier to fight Ali, he replied, " when Ali loses a step" we'll fight him. So even Frazier's trainer knew Joe had no shot vs 67 Ali. But again let the fiction writers make up their stories as they go along. Oh and Ali won rounds 1-4, 6, 9, and 12 in f2 vs Norton. Round 12 even? Ha ha ha!!! 10-8 rd
Forget special eyes... do you even have eyes? Ali assuredly did not sweep the first 5 rounds, unless you're giving him points for flicking out a few ineffective jabs and ignoring everything Norton did. Seeing as you think Norton "hardly threw a punch" you probably were.
It's hard to find a single round Ali won clearly. The 12th wasn't clear. Ali had a strong 1st half and Norton a strong 2nd, ergo I called it even. Check out Ali shoving Bundini at the end. He didn't look like he'd won.
Nonsense. Ali swept the first 5 rounds, when Norton hardly threw a punch. Norton had a few clear rounds, the rest were nip and tuck aside from 12 which Ali clearly won. No fighter gets ALL the close rounds, that's just ridiculous. Even being generous to Norton, it comes out 7-5, 7-4-1 to Ali.
If one judge thought Ali won the first Norton fight and another thought he pitched a near shut-out against Jimmy Young, that tells me judges are as fallible as anyone else. I prefer to form my own opinion.
Can't really see how Ali won Norton II, unless you're giving him credit for running and missed jabs, and ignoring everything Norton did. Norton was busier throughout, pressing the fight, landing hard shots to head and body, and effectively slipped and parried a lot of what Ali threw.
I'll say it again for the last time. Ali won the 2nd Norton fight - on the cards and according to the majority of observers. Maybe you have a pair of special eyes or something? Like super eyes? That see things that no one else can see.
@klinepatsy Ali definetley won fight 2 vs Norton 7-4-1 i scored it. The guy you are ref to having "special eyes" just has a habit of living in a make believe world were facts don't ever get in the way of bias. He thinks Ali never won a fight in his career. To him Ali should have been disq just for entering a ring.
And you also mention Spinks...by that time Ali was a shadow of the fighter that he was..it was all over...the fact that a washed up ali still managed to get it together one last time to beat Spinks kinda eclipses the fact that the 'no hoper' (who Ali never took seriously) beat him to begin with. Ali should have quit after Manila - the fact that he won any fights after that is miraculous, but we all know it ruined his health.
Cleveland Williams was a pale shadow of the fighter he was when he fought Ali, having had half his guts blasted out by a magnum-wielding cop a year earlier. Doesn't stop Ali's fans raving about his performance against Williams.
As is usually the case with Ali's fans, they wail endlessly about his problems yet rarely even acknowledge the other guy's. Your dismissal of Frazier's health issues prior to the FOTC is a case in point.
Frazier was champion of the world when he fought Ali...if he had so many problems, A) he wouldn't have been Champ to begin with and B) he wouldn't have beaten Ali in the FOTC...which i acknowledge as a Frazier win...but your obvious hatred for Ali taints all your opinions., such as claiming that Ali never beat Norton, when the scorecards in fight 2 back up what any objective observer can see with their own eyes..that Ali beat him fair and square. Cue another irrelevant reply from you...
Ali was #1 contender and had just beaten Bonavena and Quarry, the best prime contenders he'd faced up to that point. If his problems were such a major issue he wouldn't have been in that position.
So what the scorecards had Ali beating Norton? One judge had him winning the first Norton fight too. I treat the scoring of that era with a veritable pinch of salt. Ali was boxing's cash cow and got all the breaks on the cards. In a fair world Norton would have won at least 2, if not all 3.
When did I ever say he was GOAT? It's a waste of time debating with you. You couldn't be objective if you tried. Ali won Norton II, it wasn't an easy win, but only a moron would sit there and tell the world Ali never won that one....the other two, well he clearly didn't beat him first time out, and probably not the third one either...all fighters confront styles that baffle them, but then Ali never got KO'd in 2 rounds by Big George.
Gorilla Jones, Panama Al Brown and Kid Gavilan were never KO'd either, and all had significantly more fights than Ali. No one touts them as the greatest ever.
I credit Ali for outlasting the Liston and Foreman that he faced, but the GOAT for doing so? Nope. I don't consider throwing a few jabs and then holding for the rest of the round "clever dominance". Just a yawnathon and another of the officiating gifts he always seemed to get.
The record doesn't tell the full story with Ali. To my mind he had 3 fights with Norton and still hasn't beaten him, regardless of the "record".
After Foreman, what did Ali have left to prove? His career had its fair share of non-fights, near farces and non-events, but it is the defining moments that make him - Beating Liston first time out, the audacious exhibition in Quarry II, the clever dominance in Frazier II, the out -maneouvering of Foreman, and the never-say-die performance in Manila. If Ali is so tainted as you say, which fighter of his era has a better record against similar opposition, and how many of them never got KO'd?
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Never mind that idiot. You are right1 Ali is so tainted that he was recently rated no1 Heavyweight ever by Ring mag. Athlete of 20th cent by BBC, Sports Illust, and the most globally followed media giant SKY Sports as well. Yeah very tainted. There's always going to be a few morons who want attention and say anything stupid to feel important, but in the end you and i and the world know the truth.
If Ali was impeded so badly how did he compete at that level for another decade? Most Ali supporters wail endlessly about his problems yet won't even acknowledge the other guy's. That ninny who thinks Foreman was "100% fine" against Ali is a case in point.
Results are not all that count, not when the ample footage of Ali simply doesn't reflect his legend and claims of dominance, and shows that he was involved in a large number of close and controversial fights.
So if Frazier was impeded so badly, how the hell would he have managed to win the FOTC? All fighters have excuses, it's human nature, but at the end of the day, the results are the only thing that count, and Frazier was banged out twice by Foreman, a man who was floored twice by Lyle and who very nearly lost to Lyle, yet Ali, who fought under as varied conditions and circumstances as anyone else, was never knocked out.
Just doing what you're doing. Funny how Ali's problems are always a major issue, yet whatever troubles the other guy has get ignored. Oh, and Frazier spent 3 weeks in hospital because he had a kidney infection, which almost derailed the FOTC.
Again, do you think Ali would've traded his impediments for Frazier's?
So you want to play down the length of Ali's enforced exile, but you make a big deal about Foreman losing a month of sparring? Face the facts. Ali took everything Foreman had, counterpunched him to death and then knocked him out. FOTC was in my opinion, Frazier's fight, no question, but it was well avenged in fights 2 and 3. Frazier never made any excuses, but it seems like you are hell bent on it.
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To the Ali haters any fight Ali won was illegit, and every fight he lost proves he wasn't good. Basically their attitude is; 'don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up". They are this era's flat earth society.
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Foreman was 100% fine going into Ali fight. He ran into the ring full of confidence he would kill a as he thought washed up Ali. Then he got ko'd by Ali. The same blows than nearly killed unimaginative Frazier, and scared Norton didn't make ali wilt. All the while Ali stung him with sharp rights, and lefts till the Ko. masterful corageous fight for the greatest ever, eventhough his best days were behind him.
Licked? More like lucky to run into a Foreman who'd been held prisoner in a stockade and was unable to spar for a month because of a cut eye. That alone should've put the rematch high on the agenda, as should the big money on offer and the fact that Foreman was the biggest fight out there for Ali after Zaire.
Be interested to know why Bugner, Wepner, Dunn, Coopman, Evangelista and Spinks deserved title shots against Ali but Foreman didn't.
No mention of Frazier being half blind and a hypertension sufferer? No mention of him effectively being a one-armed fighter by the time he faced Ali? Think Ali would have traded his "rust" for those impediments?
The FOTC may have been close to you but it wasn't for me. Frazier won clearly. And Ali having him hurt in fight II is completely overrated. Frazier was momentarily stunned.
And Ali did have 2 tune up fights...3 rounds with Quarry and 15 with Bonavena...you think after all that time off that's enough to be in prime shape? Imagine a world class fighter today not fighting for over 3 years. It's a massive chunk of time for an athlete in his prime, especially when the opposition is more active and younger. It's not rocket science.
so no mention of the closeness of fight 1? It wasn't a whooping at all. And no mention of Frazier saved by the ref in fight 2? So if frazier couldn't see how come he was landing such big shots in Manila? He said after the fight about Ali..'Lawdy he's a great champion'. Joe wasn't washed up. Ali rallied in that fight and destroyed him. And Foreman? Tell everyone just why he deserved a rematch. He got licked.
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You are 100% correct klinepatsy. Not only did Ali beat Frazier soundly in fights 2 and 3, but actually put Frazier in the hospital for 3 wks after fight 1 which i thought Ali won anyway. Foreman got whipped easily(no need for rematch). And getting back to Frazier, he should send ref Tony Perez thank you cards for rest of his life for saving him from getting ko'd in round 2 of fight 2. Ali fought the entire dec of the 70's with bursitis of the knuckles, and still whipped all those guys. GOAT!
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Oh and Frazier could see fine in Manila in round 1. But by 14th he couldn't see. Its called swelling of the eyes by punches to the face. Not Frazier's lame eye excuse. Funny how those eyes looked fine vs Quarry in 74 at garden, and Ellis in 75 in S Africa, but "Can't see" vs Ali in 74 and 75 Lol!
yes, but people are failing to understand the significance of such a long layoff for a prime heavyweight. 3.5 years is a huge chunk of time in the life of a prime athlete. Ali could take a punch as well as anyone, as he discovered. And don't forget that Manila practically ended him as a serious force - he should have quit right there. I prefer to take a balanced view of his career - some stunning displays against big punchers, mixed in with some really terrible displays in the 70s.
Flavius, Ali-Frazier I was actually a reasonably close fight. After 3 and a half years of idleness he climbed into the ring with a well-conditioned champion, at his peak, who had been fighting regularly. He had no chance. The fact that he didn't disgrace himself was to his credit. And what about fight II when the referee stepped in and saved Frazier before the bell, in round 2? Why would Foreman have deserved a rematch? He was comprehensively beaten..close calls lead to rematches. You talk shit.
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Ali did win fight1 but wasn't given the dec. And you're right Frazier was saved in fight 2, round 2 by clueless ref. And Foreman was whipped easily, no point in rematch. Frazier also ducked Ali after fight 1 as all except the clueless know.
The ref saved him? Look I love Ali but you're just taking the piss. Frazier backed up but he wasn't out of it. Ali hit him a lot worse in manila and he didn't go down. And Foreman didn't deserve a rematch? Ali easily beat guys like Patterson, Quarry and Chuvalo yet they got rematches. And Frazier ducked Ali after 71? That doesn't make sense. He fought him twice more.
Absolutely Frazier ducked Ali after 71. For 2 years he ducked him. The only reason for fight 2 in 74 was bec frazier had lost to Foreman and therefore lost his title. He knew that to win his title back he had to fight Ali to see who would meet Foreman later that yr for title. Ali of course beat Frazier, and then ko'd foreman. As far as fight 3, it was Ali who gave Frazier a rematch, not the other way around. Remember Ali was defending his title vws Frazier not the other way around. Makes sense.
Well you make good points about Frazier only fighting Ali after he lost the title. But I dunno if you can say he ducked him. Joe only had two fights after Ali before losing to Foreman, and fighters usually don't get rematches until the man they lost to has a few fights. I don't think frazier was scared of Ali. Any man who can get up 6 times from Foreman and keep coming in for more (stupid but brave) probably isn't going to be afraid of Ali.
You could also ask why Ali made a title defense against a faded, 35 year-old Zora Folley (who was beaten by Brian London a few months later) in '67 instead of facing Frazier, who was the most dangerous opponent out there for him.
Well, apart from 2 tune-ups against top contenders, which meant he'd had more recent ring action than Frazier.
Ali got whooped by Frazier, Norton and Leon and got rematches. He had rematches with Bugner, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, etc. Foreman was the biggest fight out there for Ali after 74, yet he preferred to go on a bum of the month tour. Go figure.
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So, given his hundred or so Ali-bashing comments how many think FlaviusConstantius is an unbalanced douchebag? Show of hands. Wow, nearly everyone. Okay, how many think he is just an obnoxious pinhead? That's everyone. Okay, just checking.
bonavena si que tenias huevos..!!!!
camimak1 6 days ago
idk hw come ppl talk ill of ali...watch his fight closely...maybe some of u dnt have the knowledge of boxin... @fighter3233 why dont u box with ali? ur not gud enough to judge him...he even knocked out shaver, while shaver was in his prime. he was full of confident, courage, talent and skills...so fuck off
SAITABU 3 weeks ago
It was 1970!
shootinblanks0 2 months ago
Too bad ali couldn't beat that japanese wrestler. Not the best
123UncleRuckus 2 months ago
@123UncleRuckus Fuck your mother is was a draw you cocksucker and Ali would have whupped him if they had a rematch back then you living shit-eater! You probably never fought in your entire life and all you do and rant your stinking mouth on comments think that your the greatest! Muhammad Ali is a legend best in his time and you'll never be like him ever!
fighter3223 2 months ago
@fighter3223 Haha another Ali nut-hugger. Do some actual research on the fight and how Ali had to have the rules rigged in his favour because he knew he would lose. Stop listening to all the Ali hype, he wasn't as good as people say he was, and look at him now Frazier fucked him right up.
123UncleRuckus 2 months ago
@davidtec22 con que te da verguenza... andate a vivir a otra parte, cambiate de nacionalidad... no necesitamos mas mierda de la que ya hay... vos sos de los que se compran el lcd de 46 pulgadas para ver tinelli? sos un idiota
GhostRyder443 3 months ago
Does anyone know what year this was?
CornishRicky 4 months ago
@CornishRicky Dec 1970 was the year.
rojoboxing 2 months ago
No jodan.. ringo peleo contra el mejor de todos los tiempos... y no digan que esa noche Ali "se resbalo" porque sintio la mano y fijense que lo tuvo contra las cuerdas a punto de caer, pero Ringo no pudo.
Fue uno de los mejores de Argentina con puro huevo y corazon.
Larga vida a Ringo y a Ali!!!
tatax85 4 months ago
humillante.
MultiPunio 4 months ago
The real damage started with a magical left hoolk att 0.025-0.03 no one notice that!
Makhecha 5 months ago
That step back left hook was beautiful. Ali never had a particularly strong left hand, so you know Bonavena had NO idea that shot was coming. Put him flat on his trunks out of nowhere.
FSMNoodlyAppendage 5 months ago
You want to understand how race plays into boxing? Consider this: most great boxers in US history grew up very poor. This would provide drive to "fight" for respect in life.
Circa 1900-30, boxing was dominated by whites because blacks were still considered "sub-human" by society in Jim Crow-era US. (eg. Jack Johnson)
As time progressed, whites moved into the middle class and black Americans moved "up" to lower class.
Boxing ability doesn't rely on race, it's a snapshot of the lower class.
whitl103 5 months ago
@whitl103
Black Joe Louis, one of the all-time greats, was beaten by 3 fighters, 2 white, 1 black.
White Rocky Marciano is the only heavy pro with no career losses. He beat Louis, but at the same time idolized him.
The greats didn't care about race, life was deeper than skin to them. They were/are much more courageous than that. You armchair warriors aught to take a look at your own character.
whitl103 5 months ago
Stop with the racist bullshit. White guys CAN fight. It just so happens that the very best fighters have been black. However, if you have a top 10 p4p list, you have to have Greb, Dempsey, or Marciano in it depending on who you ask.
However look at the Klitchko's. Not only are they big, but they are very skilled. Plus Vitiali especially has heart and a chin to go with his skills and they dominate the heavyweighs.
Mythically head-to-head, I would still pick Ali to beat both of them though.
guvnoir23 5 months ago
Yeah, he should have called him Muhammed.
ernhutch187 5 months ago
Ali wanted this white boy so bad he never went to a neutral corner he smack down the ref arm lol
vidz06 6 months ago
@vidz06 oscar bonavena ain't white ya uneducated monkey.
b0x1n9f4n 6 months ago
@b0x1n9f4n shut ya lil gay faggot ass up and stop talking shit over computers
vidz06 6 months ago
@vidz06 I'm not talking shit, I'm just pointing out that you are an uneducated homosapien
b0x1n9f4n 5 months ago
Bonavena Lionheart! WON THE FIGHT! THE REFEREE WAS PURCHASED!
LOSBUCHIS14 7 months ago
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@LOSBUCHIS14 are you blind as well as stupid?
adharasi 7 months ago
Who was the white guy again? Stop joking, a white guy vs Muhammad Ali- never in a million years could that end well. Lucky Ali didn't put him in the grave that night.
IASOU2005 8 months ago
@IASOU2005 white guy??whats wrong with white guys?white guys can fight too.special forces seals for example are almost all white guys.101st airbourne on Dday were all white guys.russian spets are all white guys too. we dont currently prefer boxing heavily,but i dont see anything flawed in the basic fighting spirit of white guys.i dont see that race is a thing to push here.you said stop joking,in your post.Do you think white guys are a joke sir?i dont think white guys are a joke,nor blacks either
dempsey981 6 months ago
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Wow no neutral corner for Ali can you say special treatment
pensocad 9 months ago
made it look easy
ryan12629 9 months ago
"I am the greatest !"....he's probably right..
ianpatterson123 10 months ago
JAJAJAJAJAJA...NOTE COMO ALY LE DICE AL ARBITRO QUE LO DEJE TRANQUILO PARA NOQUEAR A BONAVENA....JAJAJAJAJ EL ARBITRO ESTABA LIGERAMENTE COMPRADITO A FAVOR DE ALY...OBSERVEN OBSERVEN...COMPRARON AL ARBITRO
pensocad 10 months ago
@pensocad Loco me parece que Bonavena no tenia posibilidad contra Ali ...
Aleejito18 9 months ago
@Aleejito18 como que no observe la pelea completa y fijate cuando bonavena puso mal a aly..lo que paso fue que no lo remato observa...pero no es mentira lo que escribi,,,fijate como aly aparta al albitro para cabar con bonavena...
pensocad 9 months ago
Wow no neutral corner for Ali can you say special treatment
mrdoyle71 11 months ago
It didn't come from nowhere. It came from Bonavena opening himself up to a clear counter. God, did Cosell clean Ali's jock well.
bluemonkjd 11 months ago
@bluemonkjd -Bonavena's legs were clearly gone by then. U r right-not really the ali of old
loyaldude10 8 months ago
it was two lefts that did the trick - the first one at 0.02 did all the damage - Oscar then walked onto the second one - masterful piece of skill by Ali - two short lefts in quick succession
jayz1970 11 months ago
Segun Ali , Ringo Bonavena fue el rival mas difícil al que se ha enfrentado.
soytomi 1 year ago
i love that left hook, the way it shakes his head, the accuracy and the sound...jeez ali was truly one of the greatest
MrBumboclart 1 year ago
Ali no quiso revancha con Bonavena porque sabia que se venia una dura.
RINGO IDOLO.
lucardax5d 1 year ago
ALI IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME!
GENERLMajorPain 1 year ago
Ringoo orgullo nacional !!! siempre al frente sin importar que adelante este el mas fuerte del mundo!! viva Argentina!!!!!!!!
en esta pelea ambos ganaron...
seminareee 1 year ago
aguante bona venaaaa aguante bonavenaaaa
galponsur 1 year ago
Fact is Frazier couldn't knock out Bonavena with his vaunted left hook, but the genius of Ali found a way. One of the best timed left hooks in boxing history. Watch how Ali steps backs just enough to let Bonavenas left miss by a hair before he delivers the bomb.
DustOnTheRoad 1 year ago
bigdunk9 dude ali could beat u up.
whakadu22 1 year ago
Bonavena was the greatest boxer to ever live, look it up u idiots, he would defeated the likes of Ali, Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Charles, Louis, Dempsey, Tunney, Braddock, Holyfield, Lennox, Walcott, If he were in his prime, morons.
whakadu22 1 year ago
I hope your joking. Bonavena isn't in the top 30 Heavyweights.
Rockyfan10060 1 year ago 2
hahaha mouthy little prick got shut the fuck up!
Robstailey 1 year ago
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white people are weak --physically and mentally ---that is why they are more likely to be racist coz they always feel threatened
tamaduni 1 year ago
@tamaduni then what about asians? lol
Robstailey 1 year ago
Ali - no class. No respect for the opponent.
bigdunk9 1 year ago
Yup. Not really that truly skilled in boxing either.
Rockyfan10060 1 year ago
@Rockyfan10060 Indeed, Joe Frazier all day for me.
bigdunk9 1 year ago
@bigdunk9 you have to watch the press conference to understand the lack of respect for this guy
youknowbruh 1 year ago
@youknowbruh Ali would taunt opponents in an extremely personal manner regardless if they had or hadn't said anything to him anyway, and he rarely apologised after the fights.
bigdunk9 1 year ago
@bigdunk9 ummm, are you an ass? Bonavena was running his mouth nonstop, calling Ali "Clay" and all this. Bitch got owned.
Robstailey 1 year ago
@Robstailey Read the comment you idiot, he done this to people who respected him, he never apologised, didn't even have the guts to apologise to Joe Frazier after the Thriller In Manilla. He taunted his wife, kids and family and racially abused him.
bigdunk9 1 year ago
negro hijo de mil puta
elpiberugby 1 year ago
Obviously its all conjecture at this junction .Vegetayy you are aware that Tyson and lewis spared an entire week as amatures and from everything Ive come across by the end of the week Lewis was in control.Tyson,while an incrediable force of nature lacked the ability to make adjustments in a fight,Louis as great as he was I feel was too small by modern standards Big George would have been Iron Mikes undoing .
kevindlinc 1 year ago
Nice to see Ali returning to a corner.....
drfell2907 1 year ago
@drfell2907
he never did that lol. besides he would've destroyed oscar either way.
TommyGun7111 1 year ago
Ali was a beast at times.
macjeffsdad 1 year ago
@macjeffsdad what does that even mean. hes a fighter.
rediculousnicholas 1 year ago
@rediculousnicholas Ali wasn't known for being a brawler. He was known for dancing, flash and fighting in controlled spirts, but at times he was a BEAST meaning he would be very aggressive and be the one pushing forward constantly. How could you not know what that meant? WOW!
macjeffsdad 1 year ago
@macjeffsdad lol
cyrax752 1 year ago
Lewis Ali? that is a tough question.I have enormous respect for both of these fighters abilities.So much so that my top ten all time list has Ali 1 Lewis2 followed by Big George.
kevindlinc 1 year ago
@kevindlinc ali is number one yes.but lewis?no.i think larry holmes is better then lewis.and surely tyson too.so.ALI,TYSON,HOLMES,FORMAN,LOUIS,LEWIS,HOLYFIELD,FRAZIER.
vegetayy 1 year ago
@vegetayy i agree tyson and foremon are so much better than lewis back in their days let along Ali the best of all. Fast, footwork, puncher, smart and not to mention pretty:).
cyrax752 1 year ago
Bonavena continually refered to Ali as Clay so did Patterson,bad idea!!!
kevindlinc 1 year ago 2
watch ali's weight shift onto his back foot right before he delivers the left. try standing up and bounching like that, you'll get an idea of what kind of force that shot had behind it.
Robstailey 1 year ago
vidnut you are correct that Ali became lazy, but only after he had already won the heavyweight championship Twice and was in obvious decline anyway. You cannot say he wasted his talent....How so? He knocked Liston off the top spot when everyone was convinced he was just a loudmouth. His 60s reign was pretty slick and smooth, and you have to say that the government stole most of his momentum by banning him for 3 1/2 years.
klinepatsy 1 year ago
Ali VS Lewis or Klitchko and Ali would get beat up. Sorry, but he's not the greatest of all time. Klitchko or Lewis at 250 vs Ali at 215, they are just too big and strong for Ali sorry to burst your bubble Ali
eldiezmaradona 1 year ago
@eldiezmaradona Those guys are knackered after plodding about and jabbing for four rounds, never mind matching Ali's pace!
Terrel was 6'6" and over 240 pounds and Ali toyed with him.
mootle661 1 year ago
@mootle661 Terrel over 240lbs? do your research mate.
mariosuck 1 year ago
@eldiezmaradona como podes hablar tantas pavadas juntas? y haciendote el yanqui encima, sos un bobo importante
MMinimal 1 year ago
@eldiezmaradona youre kidding me. both the klit's are disgraces to boxing, he would dance around them like the fools they are. give me a fucking break man. lewis, im not so sure, that'd be a fight worth watching though.
Robstailey 1 year ago
I disagree with people who say Ali was the greatest of all time. Thats pure bullshit, I think Vitali Klitchko and Lennox Lewis in there primes would kick Ali's ass easy. The truth is Today's heavyweights are much bigger and stronger than the previous eras. Just consider that Lewis & Klitchko weight around 250 on fight night! Ali, Frazier, Bonavena fought at around 215. Come on, do you think Ali would have a chance against Lewis or Klitchko at 250? I dont think so
eldiezmaradona 1 year ago
@eldiezmaradona @eldiezmaradona You clearly know nothing about boxing. Klitchko lost to 210 lbs Chris Byrd. Lewis lost to 6'2 Hasim Rahman and Wladmir Klitchko got knocked out cold by Corrie Sanders who is not even as good as Jerry Quarry. Size doesnt matter, if you can fight then you can fight.
mariosuck 1 year ago
@mariosuck styles make fights
Robstailey 1 year ago
ali ist der beste
2010xoxox 1 year ago
como lo cagaro a bonavena con esta pelea el jues ne aplica el reglamento y ali nunca peleo sino se penso que era una lucha y no una pelea alas trompadas estuvo a cococho de bonavena
nasesof 1 year ago
@nasesof tenes toda la razon
ali nunca regresa a su rincon cuando cae bonabena
se esconde atras del juez
aleoe12 1 year ago
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everstacy 1 year ago
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he has to wait in his corner, dirty black!!! fortunately he doesn't speak more, he was INSOPORTABLE talking, hahahahaha
everstacy 1 year ago
@everstacy fuck you he is the greatest stupid racist
he may can't speak, but we can speak for him
he is history
you are piss of shit compared to him
MichaeljacksonAFG 1 year ago
@MichaeljacksonAFG fuck U, he was a bad winner because he was a loser, I'm sure that I will finish much better than him, lol, if an idiot liie him is better than u is your fucking problem.
ARE U WHITE?? then he hates you!!! he hates white people coz....he was racist
a racist person is a person who doesn't hate black people, is a person who hates to another one for the color of the skin, example Ali
everstacy 1 year ago
@everstacy suck my dick in a box fag fuck nigga
youngfred116 1 year ago
@youngfred116 you look so sad!! when you are posting in youtube, your mother go to fuck, lol.
everstacy 1 year ago
@eversuckameancock. spell check my cock and bonavena my dick. fuck you and your opinion die slow and eat a mean dick. look sad at my anal spinkter faggot.
youngfred116 1 year ago
@everstacy hey fella,don't get too riled up! Ali was taught to be judgemental because in those days blacks were being tortured by caucasians.you have no idea what it meant to be black in the sixties and 70's...every black person is not a martin L. king jr. nonetheless,as time progressed,ALi began to be more focused on the indivisual and not the whole race.due to personal experiences.Angelo dundee was caucasian,and ALI loved him.
saladooq 1 year ago
Joe Freizer helped Ali with the license and also he gave money to him, then Ali called Fraizer "uncle Tom" you are right people, Ali was a great person, lol
The Best?? Freizer, Jordan, Miagic Johnson!! they were real champions
everstacy 1 year ago
@everstacy grow up young mind.champions are not noble,they're great! tony the tiger type shit.lol.and listen johny come lately,everybody knows frazier did ALI those favors.hey stupid,it was in frazier's best finacial intrest.frazier was an uncle tom in ALI's eyes because frazier was telling the press,"cassius is the name his parents named him,so thats what i'll call him." he started it,so ALI finished it! never thought about that hanh?
saladooq 1 year ago
@everstacy you need to research the whole story before you start making judgements about ALI!
saladooq 1 year ago
he called Terrell uncle tom
kris8144 1 year ago
@everstacy learn too spell what the fuck is "liie" dumb ass when u learn how too spell then u can talk... and who the hell are you too call ali a loser i bet you can't do what he did u wouldn't make it you would fold like a poker game ali had balls bigger then you mouth so choose your words wiser next time you talk ooooohhh yeah i forgot you can't spell sorry for ya
ThePookie27 1 year ago
@everstacy good to see that nigga fuck up one of you white boys haha. talk to his dick lol
youngfred116 1 year ago
@youngfred116 well, today black people suck in box, lol
everstacy 1 year ago
@everstacy On the racist front, Ali said "Hating people because of their colour is wrong, It doesn't matter which colour does the hating, It's just plain wrong"
Yeah, sign of a true racist.
Ali did have strong views in his early life, he has since taken a further perspective, whites hated Ali so he hated whites back.
Oh, and I am white, but that makes no difference at all
TKDGSA 1 year ago
hahahahah ali is the besttt
ElGhetto01 1 year ago
I wish he'd retired too. His post-Manila run didn't do him or boxing in general much good, and likely contributed to his present condition. I think he'd have liked to as well, given how he retired about two dozen times in the 70s. But he couldn't stop coming back, probably a combination of his ego, the money and being surrounded by hangers-on and stooges telling him he was untouchable.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Joe Louis is one of the very best. I rate Ali above him primarily on the factor of competition. But it's interesting to note that Eddie Futch, a huge Joe Louis booster, eventually conceded that Ali would have defeated Louis. His reasoning: if Conn's quickness and boxing ability could give Louis so much trouble, Ali's would cause him even more problems. I think it pained him to admit this, but admit it he did. I, for one, am not going to take issue with the analysis of the great Mr. Futch.
carbert68 1 year ago
When did Futch say that?
I'm always mystified by the Conn/Ali comparison. Conn was a classic textbook fighter who held his hands high, Ali highly unorthodox with low hands. Conn used his small size to dip in and out. Ali couldn't do that. Conn beat Louis on the inside. Ali couldn't fight inside. Conn's best punch against Louis was his left hook. How often did Ali throw a hook? They were totally different fighters. What Conn did against Louis has little relevance to what Ali might do.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Should've known better to cite Futch without looking it up first. It was a minor sidebar item in a column in a boxing magazine. It was not long before he died, I believe. I'll try to find it but it could take a while.
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea Ali had some poor outings and a few suspect decisions. I just don't think such things tarnish his accomplishments overall. In retrospect, I wish the judges had given decisions to Young and Norton, thus pushing Ali into retirement.
carbert68 1 year ago
Thing is, how would Ali's legacy be regarded if he'd lost some of those fights? Norton's next most impressive win against a top contender was a faded Quarry, which is pretty damning for Ali considering he could have lost all three fights. How would the likes of Young, Shavers or Jones be regarded if they'd beaten him?
It would better reflect how there isn't much to choose between Ali and his 70s peers, rather than him being this dominant untouchable leviathan some of his fans rave about.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Flavius operates on a strict hindsight policy which disregards the fact that Ali fought just about everyone, defeated most of them, and what's more, defeated the ones who were defeated by the others. They are the facts. All the bullshit in the world will never change that, so carry on your attempts to rewrite history but remember what Frazier said after Manila...'Lawdy he's a great champ' and what Foreman said 'I made alot of excuses and then I realised I'd been beaten by a great fighter'.
klinepatsy 1 year ago
ah yanqis chotos aguante bonavena!!!
lur fretes t amo!!!!
almafuerte555 1 year ago
If Ali was a 10 in 1967 he was probably only a 7.5 or 8 in his second career, still a great fighter but nowwhere near what he once was
TheRichmich 1 year ago
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i can clearly see alis punches werent accurate as in the 60s anymore, still good left hook.
the clay who beat liston in 64 would have done a quicker job on bonavena, without getting that much hit.
t3di2 1 year ago
Baa baa baa!
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
@FlaviusConstantius -- I admire your persistence and give you credit for carrying on with your mission to convince the rest of us that Ali was a mediocre fighter, a cheat, a coward, and an all around jerk. For me, Ali is the best heavyweight ever. As for his character, that's not for me to judge, but I admire the fact he ducked no one. To suggest he ducked Frazier is ridiculous. Joe had only 14 fights when Ali fought Folley. No one was looking for that match at that point in time, no one.
carbert68 1 year ago
Never called Ali a coward. He was obviously very brave and I credit him for taking tough fights for most of his career. It's his fans who overrate him that I take issue with. Claims like "he ducked no one" don't really stand up to scrutiny when it looks to me that he was avoiding rematches with Foreman and Norton.
BTW, in Sports Illustrated in March '67, before the Folley fight, Frazier was described as "an immensely better fighter than any whom Ali has defended his title against".
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Pt. taken regarding SI calling Frazier a superior boxer. But come on -- you can't say Ali ducked Norton, Foreman. Sure, he didn't go out of his way to face them again after beating them, but why would he? That's not 'ducking'. Holmes ducked Greg Page. Mayweather is ducking Pacquaio. But Ali ducked noone. If there was interest and the money was there, he fought. He was a proud competitor who wanted to prove himself, and sadly didn't know how to quit. He chose to fight Bonavena, Lyle, Shavers...
carbert68 1 year ago
He was the champion, loudly proclaimed by himself and his fans as the best ever. They were top contenders, both loudly calling him out. There was pressure from the boxing public for those fights, especially after the controversial third Norton bout, and both would probably have brought Ali a record purse.
Yet he was busy fighting Wepner, Dunn, Coopman, etc or talking up potential fights with the likes of Alfio Righetti and Lorenzo Zanon.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
@FlaviusConstantius -- Say what you want, the man fought EVERYONE. In the best heavyweight division in history, in my opinion. There isn't a single top contender of the 60s and 70s that Ali did not fight. This is the main reason I regard him as the best ever, the level of competition he faced and triumphed over. Name one other heavyweight champion who defeated three fighters as good as Liston, Frazier, and Foreman.
carbert68 1 year ago
Again with this 'he ducked no one' stuff. Throughout 1977 the WBC were threatening to strip Ali of the title for not fighting their #1 contender Norton. Norton beat #2 ranked Young in a title eliminator and still Ali didn't face him.
Frazier won when it mattered most and had faded by the time Ali beat him. The 2nd Liston fight still stinks 45 years on. The Foreman fight had unique circumstances favorable to Ali and still there's the issue of the rematch that wasn't...
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Again with this he ducked Norton and Foreman stuff. He beat both guys. It's not Ali's fault Foreman made a fool of himself in Toronto or had his stock lowered after almost getting knocked out by Lyle. It's not Ali's fault the judges twice gave him decisions over Norton or that Norton got demolished by the same guy Ali knocked out. Yeah, at age 36 he was putting off fighting them again, but you can't call it DUCKING when he already beat both guys. Don't know why you're bringing up Liston...
carbert68 1 year ago
Good job Frazier, Norton and Leon didn't take the same attitude, otherwise he'd have never got rematches with them after losing the first time. Imagine that, the GOAT with a losing record against Neon Leon!
When a champion is ignoring his top contenders and facing soft touches like Coopman, Evangelista and Dunn, or trying to arrange fights with Hall of Fame legends like Alfio Righetti, you might call it "putting off fighting them", but it's no different to ducking.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
You bring up Frazier. Is he guilty of ducking Ali after their first fight? Frazier had no interest in giving Ali a rematch. Instead he fought guys like Ron Stander and Terry Daniels. Does that mean he was ducking Ali? I don't think so. To me he was exercising his privilege to take other fights because he won their first fight. The same logic applies with Ali. It's not ducking. Spinks could have done the same but naturally he went for the big money to be made from a rematch.
carbert68 1 year ago
If Frazier had carried on fighting easy touches while ignoring Ali, then yes. He did fight #1 ranked Foreman after Stander and Daniels.
All champions are entitled to an easier fight now and then, and they all do it. But what would you call it when a champion is consistently not meeting the best challengers, and instead facing a string of no hopers? There was no other reason not to face Foreman/Norton, as both would've earned him a lot more money and kudos than the fights he was taking.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
@FlaviusConstantius -- Okay, you win. Ali ducked Norton and Foreman. But he fought and beat them both. So we retract the 'he ducked no one' stuff and simply say: he fought everyone in the best heavyweight division in history. And he beat them all. Ergo, he is the best heavyweight champion in history.
carbert68 1 year ago
"he fought everyone"
Except rematches with Foreman and Norton.
BTW, in the eyes of many he didn't beat Norton in their 3rd fight, another reason why there should have been a prompt rematch.
Joe Louis dominated his division more throughly than Ali ever did, avoided no one, had far few stinkers, and settled any controversial results with brutal KOs in timely rematches. The real Greatest.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Yes, he fought EVERYONE, including Norton and Foreman. Beat them both.
Norton 3, extremely close fight. I respect anyone who thinks Norton won it, but it was hardly the huge robbery some make it out to be.
Louis is of course an all-time great, but he fought in a rather weak division. His best opponents: Baer, Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Charles, Marciano. Lost to three on that list, which, IMO, doesn't compare well to Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Bonavena, Lyle, Shavers, etc.
carbert68 1 year ago
If Frazier, Norton and Leon only fought Ali once - after all, they all fought him and beat him the first time, thus there'd apparently be no need for a rematch - would you be loudly proclaiming that they "fought everyone" or "ducked no one"?
Granted Louis didn't face anyone as good as Foreman or Frazier (Liston a HOF great too but both Ali fights were suspicious to say the least), but there's little to choose between the others Ali faced and Louis' best comp, IMO.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
@FlaviusConstantius, yes, if Frazier, Norton, or anyone else took on all the fighters Ali fought, then of course I would say they fought 'everyone'. For the sake of argument, I already conceded your point that Ali ducked rematches with Foreman and Norton. But no other boxer of that era faced as many fighters as Ali. He faced everyone of note from the early 60s to the late 70s, and with the exception of Holmes, defeated them all. That should count for something, even with those who detest Ali.
carbert68 1 year ago
I said before I credit Ali for his willingness to take tough fights for most of his career. Besides the Foreman and Norton rematches there aren't many holes to pick in his opposition. Where I take issue are statements like "he ducked no one" or "he fought everyone".
Where I'm sure we would also disagree is many of his performances in said fights and the various controversial results that went his way...
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Wrong. Louis faced a collection of white stiffs known as the "Bum of the Month" club. He was small compared to Ali, and boxers gave him a tough time. Billy Conn had him beat before blowing it, and Joe Walcott was robbed in their first fight.
music4life829 1 year ago
Ali was small compared to Vitali Klitschko.
People throw around the term "bum of the month" without knowing what it meant when it was coined. Few of them were actually "bums". In any case, about half of Ali's title defenses were against the likes of Brian London and Chuck Wepner, so folks in glass houses, etc.
Did you see the Walcott rematch? Joe resolved that issue the way he settled all the few controversial results he had, by knocking his opponent senseless in a timely rematch.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Unique circumstances? Plueeze....George was a killer who ran out of steam once Ali got him into the later rounds. He did the same thing against Jimmy Young a few years later. Why are you so dismissive of Ali's greatness?
music4life829 1 year ago
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Frazier's own trainer Durham is the one who avoided Ali in 67. Ali wanted Frazier back in 67 and would have whipped him easily. Problem is Durham knew that as well, and when asked if he wanted his guy Frazier to fight Ali, he replied, " when Ali loses a step" we'll fight him. So even Frazier's trainer knew Joe had no shot vs 67 Ali. But again let the fiction writers make up their stories as they go along. Oh and Ali won rounds 1-4, 6, 9, and 12 in f2 vs Norton. Round 12 even? Ha ha ha!!! 10-8 rd
iamtman1 1 year ago
aguante bonavena loco cuando veo este vieo me dan ganas de llorrar vamos bonavena
chavogabriel 1 year ago
Forget special eyes... do you even have eyes? Ali assuredly did not sweep the first 5 rounds, unless you're giving him points for flicking out a few ineffective jabs and ignoring everything Norton did. Seeing as you think Norton "hardly threw a punch" you probably were.
It's hard to find a single round Ali won clearly. The 12th wasn't clear. Ali had a strong 1st half and Norton a strong 2nd, ergo I called it even. Check out Ali shoving Bundini at the end. He didn't look like he'd won.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Nonsense. Ali swept the first 5 rounds, when Norton hardly threw a punch. Norton had a few clear rounds, the rest were nip and tuck aside from 12 which Ali clearly won. No fighter gets ALL the close rounds, that's just ridiculous. Even being generous to Norton, it comes out 7-5, 7-4-1 to Ali.
klinepatsy 1 year ago
If one judge thought Ali won the first Norton fight and another thought he pitched a near shut-out against Jimmy Young, that tells me judges are as fallible as anyone else. I prefer to form my own opinion.
Can't really see how Ali won Norton II, unless you're giving him credit for running and missed jabs, and ignoring everything Norton did. Norton was busier throughout, pressing the fight, landing hard shots to head and body, and effectively slipped and parried a lot of what Ali threw.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
I'll say it again for the last time. Ali won the 2nd Norton fight - on the cards and according to the majority of observers. Maybe you have a pair of special eyes or something? Like super eyes? That see things that no one else can see.
klinepatsy 1 year ago
@klinepatsy Ali definetley won fight 2 vs Norton 7-4-1 i scored it. The guy you are ref to having "special eyes" just has a habit of living in a make believe world were facts don't ever get in the way of bias. He thinks Ali never won a fight in his career. To him Ali should have been disq just for entering a ring.
iamtman1 1 year ago
Just love it how Ali follows Bonavena at 0:21 and actually pushes the referee's hand down at 0:24.
mjhaan 1 year ago
Ali ganhou dos maiores peso pesados da época : Ellis. Foreman, Paterson, Liston. Ele foi testado ao limite, jamais havera um boxer como Ali.
gbcon50 1 year ago
And you also mention Spinks...by that time Ali was a shadow of the fighter that he was..it was all over...the fact that a washed up ali still managed to get it together one last time to beat Spinks kinda eclipses the fact that the 'no hoper' (who Ali never took seriously) beat him to begin with. Ali should have quit after Manila - the fact that he won any fights after that is miraculous, but we all know it ruined his health.
klinepatsy 1 year ago
Cleveland Williams was a pale shadow of the fighter he was when he fought Ali, having had half his guts blasted out by a magnum-wielding cop a year earlier. Doesn't stop Ali's fans raving about his performance against Williams.
As is usually the case with Ali's fans, they wail endlessly about his problems yet rarely even acknowledge the other guy's. Your dismissal of Frazier's health issues prior to the FOTC is a case in point.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
Frazier was champion of the world when he fought Ali...if he had so many problems, A) he wouldn't have been Champ to begin with and B) he wouldn't have beaten Ali in the FOTC...which i acknowledge as a Frazier win...but your obvious hatred for Ali taints all your opinions., such as claiming that Ali never beat Norton, when the scorecards in fight 2 back up what any objective observer can see with their own eyes..that Ali beat him fair and square. Cue another irrelevant reply from you...
klinepatsy 1 year ago
Ali was #1 contender and had just beaten Bonavena and Quarry, the best prime contenders he'd faced up to that point. If his problems were such a major issue he wouldn't have been in that position.
So what the scorecards had Ali beating Norton? One judge had him winning the first Norton fight too. I treat the scoring of that era with a veritable pinch of salt. Ali was boxing's cash cow and got all the breaks on the cards. In a fair world Norton would have won at least 2, if not all 3.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
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frazier was the same age as the ali from the fotc, when foreman f***ed him in his butt nice and slow.
he got knocked down 7 times against big george, foreman punched him so hard that he was bouncing around like a rubber ball.
most frazier fans forget that, just remembering.
t3di2 1 year ago
Ali lost his title to what was effectively an amateur fighter with few skills and a weak chin. I know which is the more embarrassing.
And who but a moron would moan about Ali's ring rust but not even acknowledge Frazier's problems?
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
When did I ever say he was GOAT? It's a waste of time debating with you. You couldn't be objective if you tried. Ali won Norton II, it wasn't an easy win, but only a moron would sit there and tell the world Ali never won that one....the other two, well he clearly didn't beat him first time out, and probably not the third one either...all fighters confront styles that baffle them, but then Ali never got KO'd in 2 rounds by Big George.
klinepatsy 1 year ago
Bonavena NO SE RINDE !!! .
diogenesterapeutico 2 years ago
Gorilla Jones, Panama Al Brown and Kid Gavilan were never KO'd either, and all had significantly more fights than Ali. No one touts them as the greatest ever.
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
I credit Ali for outlasting the Liston and Foreman that he faced, but the GOAT for doing so? Nope. I don't consider throwing a few jabs and then holding for the rest of the round "clever dominance". Just a yawnathon and another of the officiating gifts he always seemed to get.
The record doesn't tell the full story with Ali. To my mind he had 3 fights with Norton and still hasn't beaten him, regardless of the "record".
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
what a shot! skip back and then a short left hook
thegiantpigeon 2 years ago
After Foreman, what did Ali have left to prove? His career had its fair share of non-fights, near farces and non-events, but it is the defining moments that make him - Beating Liston first time out, the audacious exhibition in Quarry II, the clever dominance in Frazier II, the out -maneouvering of Foreman, and the never-say-die performance in Manila. If Ali is so tainted as you say, which fighter of his era has a better record against similar opposition, and how many of them never got KO'd?
klinepatsy 2 years ago
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Never mind that idiot. You are right1 Ali is so tainted that he was recently rated no1 Heavyweight ever by Ring mag. Athlete of 20th cent by BBC, Sports Illust, and the most globally followed media giant SKY Sports as well. Yeah very tainted. There's always going to be a few morons who want attention and say anything stupid to feel important, but in the end you and i and the world know the truth.
iamtman1 2 years ago
If Ali was impeded so badly how did he compete at that level for another decade? Most Ali supporters wail endlessly about his problems yet won't even acknowledge the other guy's. That ninny who thinks Foreman was "100% fine" against Ali is a case in point.
Results are not all that count, not when the ample footage of Ali simply doesn't reflect his legend and claims of dominance, and shows that he was involved in a large number of close and controversial fights.
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
So if Frazier was impeded so badly, how the hell would he have managed to win the FOTC? All fighters have excuses, it's human nature, but at the end of the day, the results are the only thing that count, and Frazier was banged out twice by Foreman, a man who was floored twice by Lyle and who very nearly lost to Lyle, yet Ali, who fought under as varied conditions and circumstances as anyone else, was never knocked out.
klinepatsy 2 years ago
Just doing what you're doing. Funny how Ali's problems are always a major issue, yet whatever troubles the other guy has get ignored. Oh, and Frazier spent 3 weeks in hospital because he had a kidney infection, which almost derailed the FOTC.
Again, do you think Ali would've traded his impediments for Frazier's?
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
So you want to play down the length of Ali's enforced exile, but you make a big deal about Foreman losing a month of sparring? Face the facts. Ali took everything Foreman had, counterpunched him to death and then knocked him out. FOTC was in my opinion, Frazier's fight, no question, but it was well avenged in fights 2 and 3. Frazier never made any excuses, but it seems like you are hell bent on it.
klinepatsy 2 years ago
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To the Ali haters any fight Ali won was illegit, and every fight he lost proves he wasn't good. Basically their attitude is; 'don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up". They are this era's flat earth society.
iamtman1 2 years ago
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Foreman was 100% fine going into Ali fight. He ran into the ring full of confidence he would kill a as he thought washed up Ali. Then he got ko'd by Ali. The same blows than nearly killed unimaginative Frazier, and scared Norton didn't make ali wilt. All the while Ali stung him with sharp rights, and lefts till the Ko. masterful corageous fight for the greatest ever, eventhough his best days were behind him.
iamtman1 2 years ago
Licked? More like lucky to run into a Foreman who'd been held prisoner in a stockade and was unable to spar for a month because of a cut eye. That alone should've put the rematch high on the agenda, as should the big money on offer and the fact that Foreman was the biggest fight out there for Ali after Zaire.
Be interested to know why Bugner, Wepner, Dunn, Coopman, Evangelista and Spinks deserved title shots against Ali but Foreman didn't.
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
No mention of Frazier being half blind and a hypertension sufferer? No mention of him effectively being a one-armed fighter by the time he faced Ali? Think Ali would have traded his "rust" for those impediments?
The FOTC may have been close to you but it wasn't for me. Frazier won clearly. And Ali having him hurt in fight II is completely overrated. Frazier was momentarily stunned.
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
And Ali did have 2 tune up fights...3 rounds with Quarry and 15 with Bonavena...you think after all that time off that's enough to be in prime shape? Imagine a world class fighter today not fighting for over 3 years. It's a massive chunk of time for an athlete in his prime, especially when the opposition is more active and younger. It's not rocket science.
klinepatsy 2 years ago
so no mention of the closeness of fight 1? It wasn't a whooping at all. And no mention of Frazier saved by the ref in fight 2? So if frazier couldn't see how come he was landing such big shots in Manila? He said after the fight about Ali..'Lawdy he's a great champion'. Joe wasn't washed up. Ali rallied in that fight and destroyed him. And Foreman? Tell everyone just why he deserved a rematch. He got licked.
klinepatsy 2 years ago
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You are 100% correct klinepatsy. Not only did Ali beat Frazier soundly in fights 2 and 3, but actually put Frazier in the hospital for 3 wks after fight 1 which i thought Ali won anyway. Foreman got whipped easily(no need for rematch). And getting back to Frazier, he should send ref Tony Perez thank you cards for rest of his life for saving him from getting ko'd in round 2 of fight 2. Ali fought the entire dec of the 70's with bursitis of the knuckles, and still whipped all those guys. GOAT!
iamtman1 2 years ago
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Oh and Frazier could see fine in Manila in round 1. But by 14th he couldn't see. Its called swelling of the eyes by punches to the face. Not Frazier's lame eye excuse. Funny how those eyes looked fine vs Quarry in 74 at garden, and Ellis in 75 in S Africa, but "Can't see" vs Ali in 74 and 75 Lol!
iamtman1 2 years ago
yes, but people are failing to understand the significance of such a long layoff for a prime heavyweight. 3.5 years is a huge chunk of time in the life of a prime athlete. Ali could take a punch as well as anyone, as he discovered. And don't forget that Manila practically ended him as a serious force - he should have quit right there. I prefer to take a balanced view of his career - some stunning displays against big punchers, mixed in with some really terrible displays in the 70s.
klinepatsy 2 years ago
I meant to say inferior fighters.
vidnut67 2 years ago 7
es una mierda ese ali no respeta la distancia el negro de mierdaa
buenasoylucas 2 years ago
Flavius, Ali-Frazier I was actually a reasonably close fight. After 3 and a half years of idleness he climbed into the ring with a well-conditioned champion, at his peak, who had been fighting regularly. He had no chance. The fact that he didn't disgrace himself was to his credit. And what about fight II when the referee stepped in and saved Frazier before the bell, in round 2? Why would Foreman have deserved a rematch? He was comprehensively beaten..close calls lead to rematches. You talk shit.
klinepatsy 2 years ago
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Ali did win fight1 but wasn't given the dec. And you're right Frazier was saved in fight 2, round 2 by clueless ref. And Foreman was whipped easily, no point in rematch. Frazier also ducked Ali after fight 1 as all except the clueless know.
iamtman1 2 years ago
The ref saved him? Look I love Ali but you're just taking the piss. Frazier backed up but he wasn't out of it. Ali hit him a lot worse in manila and he didn't go down. And Foreman didn't deserve a rematch? Ali easily beat guys like Patterson, Quarry and Chuvalo yet they got rematches. And Frazier ducked Ali after 71? That doesn't make sense. He fought him twice more.
upthera5 1 year ago 2
Absolutely Frazier ducked Ali after 71. For 2 years he ducked him. The only reason for fight 2 in 74 was bec frazier had lost to Foreman and therefore lost his title. He knew that to win his title back he had to fight Ali to see who would meet Foreman later that yr for title. Ali of course beat Frazier, and then ko'd foreman. As far as fight 3, it was Ali who gave Frazier a rematch, not the other way around. Remember Ali was defending his title vws Frazier not the other way around. Makes sense.
iamtman1 1 year ago
Well you make good points about Frazier only fighting Ali after he lost the title. But I dunno if you can say he ducked him. Joe only had two fights after Ali before losing to Foreman, and fighters usually don't get rematches until the man they lost to has a few fights. I don't think frazier was scared of Ali. Any man who can get up 6 times from Foreman and keep coming in for more (stupid but brave) probably isn't going to be afraid of Ali.
upthera5 1 year ago 2
You could also ask why Ali made a title defense against a faded, 35 year-old Zora Folley (who was beaten by Brian London a few months later) in '67 instead of facing Frazier, who was the most dangerous opponent out there for him.
FlaviusConstantius 1 year ago
"After 3 and a half years of idleness"
Well, apart from 2 tune-ups against top contenders, which meant he'd had more recent ring action than Frazier.
Ali got whooped by Frazier, Norton and Leon and got rematches. He had rematches with Bugner, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, etc. Foreman was the biggest fight out there for Ali after 74, yet he preferred to go on a bum of the month tour. Go figure.
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ago
negro sucio de mierda de ali, hijo de puta, no fue a su esquina cuando tenia que haber ido... por suerte ya se va a morir de vieja... jajajaja
soyunboxeador 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
So, given his hundred or so Ali-bashing comments how many think FlaviusConstantius is an unbalanced douchebag? Show of hands. Wow, nearly everyone. Okay, how many think he is just an obnoxious pinhead? That's everyone. Okay, just checking.
chomsky88 2 years ago