@gbell76 everything you say has been disproven with evidence. and the evidence overwhelmingly favors training with full-resistance. on the street with no rules, i'll take the judoka over a karateka, any day. it's not the techniques, it's the training methods. i studied hapkido. i bought your line for awhile then i woke up and got into bjj and boxing. again, jigoro kano's judo crushed traditional jiujiutsu, the supposedly deadly combat art. you need to think about why that is.
True self defense martial arts such as Karate or Japanese ju-jitsu cannot be practically taught in an "aliveness " method. If it were there would be no partners to work with. i.e. groin grabs and twists, eye gouges, ridge hand throat chops fish hooks etc, etc. With that being said I can see an area of common ground where you can try and train both.
@gbell76 save that nonsense for people that don't know better. traditional jiujitsu was crushed by judo in the late 19th century and early twentieth century. why? because of the training methods of judo. "aliveness" if you will. the art doesn't matter, the methods do. boxers, wrestlers, muay thai-ists, bjj practitioners, the aforementioned judo have a distinct advantage over traditional styles. namely, full-resistance training. traditional arts amount to no more than self-aggrandizement.
@giovannito858 Nonsense you say? I beg to differ. Unlike most people, I have had the misfortune/fortune to use my 18+ years of training in traditional martial arts in the street and in actual life/death situations. I work in security and I love when I see the new guy with cauliflower ear that says that he trains in BJJ try and intervene in one on one or melee type situations. They overwhelming walk away with the most injuries.
@giovannito858 I'll repeat myself slowly... traditional martial arts in a self defense aspect cannot be practiced in an "aliveness" fashion. So based on your logic, I should actually eye gouge, and fish hook the orbital of my training partner, followed by a shin scrape and a groin twist to "prove" that it could've been done? Nonsense!! I'm not saying that Boxing/BJJ/Mui Thai cannot be effective in the street. But make no mistake... they Are sport.
@giovannito858 I'll go up against any one of those in the street. And I'll simply say... "You fight your fight according to how you've been trained and your rules, and I'll fight mine" The reason why traditional Jiujitsu was crushed back then is the same reason that you see in these older BJJ vs Karate videos. The training.
@giovannito858 The Karate person has not trained for the level of athleticism/long term fighting as the BJJ practitioner, and cannot reasonably apply the permanently injuring techniques that he has been taught, therefore he falls into the BJJ practitioners trap (who is going at 100 mph in his discipline btw). That wont happen as much in this modern day. Because authentic Karateka (practitioners) will not get caught up in such fool hearty endeavors.
most people forget what mma is mma is not a fighting style of it's own like it is becoming which is pretty sad. MMA stands for mixed martial arts so you mix martial arts one art like wing chun would be useless against some one who does real mma. Fighters are making mma a mixture of bjj and kickboxing. They neglect all other martial arts and sometimes they just brawl like if they had no training at all, but it sells so that's what they do.
A good point, sort of. BJJ is sparred at varying levels of competitiveness, depending on the circumstances. What you are talking about is sparring MMA, not BJJ, as BJJ does not include striking in its techniques. A lot of people call what you describe "jits with hits", and it is very common.
However, BJJ's lack of striking does not reduce its effectiveness, as it is only one facet of a martial artist's game. Wing Chun is completely ineffective, not to mention stupid looking.
Wing Chun DOES do fantasy sparring, and that video is proof. People don't really fight like that in real life. In real life, if you grab another man's head, he is not going to let you elbow him six times before he pulls away. The only reason that, or half of the other things in that video happened, was because those guys are "Wing Chun sparring", ie, sparring inside the fantastical, mystical world of Wing Chun.
Were they to spar with someone with MMA training, it would be embarrassing.
@haircutdeluxe Is true about Wing Chun but also true about BJJ. If watch BJJ even if agree with everything said in video here still have to ask what if we make more alive in clinch and say here knee to groin here elbow here headbut here bite nose? Then BJJ become more alive not less alive and more idea from other martial arts brothers become more make sense at last maybe?
@haircutdeluxe I disagree and agree with your argument, I do wing chun and spared with of other styles. Standing up wing chun is a great fighting systeem. But If I got against a MMA training I would be beat. But because I dont know how to be good and effective on the ground. But still look at for examle a move from MMA. I got choked by a guillotine choke. I am on the ground In MMA I can only tap out.. In Wing Chun I would just hit him fucking hard in the balls? So how do we measure?
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
basides who the hell is matt thorton I've never heard of him he sure as hell ain't no champion or anything and people train at his gym and treat him like he is something when he is nothing but a joke
Everything u do must be alive, or it won't work in any situation. It's just like Paul Vunak said, if u want to make your standup art work, u have to equate it against a boxer/Thaiboxer. U should have someone who has good training, put on the gloves, throw punches at u, and try to work what u would try to pull off in a real fight, a takedown, slipping, ducking, blocking and hitting, low leg kicks, etc,. The same can be said with ground fighting, train with some who's good in bjj, or wrestling.
Yes, and so are boxing and wrestling, which predate Judo by, what, 3000 years? All three are highly effective in combat, because they train with aliveness.
But that's neither here nor there. Like Matt says in the video, if boxers started fantasy-sparring like wing-chun, they wouldn't be able to box, and if wrestlers start crappling like Master Waki, they wouldn't be able to wrestle.
Pretending to grapple against an opponent is not effective training. Your opponent must provide resistance.
ummmm do you even now what wing chun is???? it's just like boxing sparring is all out intense fist hammering to each others faces you apperantly have never seen a wing-chun sparring session
oh sorry bout the last coment I thought you said that wingchun is fantasy sparring. this guy matt needs to get his facts straight and actually know what he is talking about first
so in wing chun you fantasy spar? take a look at real wing chun full contact sparring watch this video "Wing Chun full contact (Wing Tsun Kong Sau)" this is full contact wing chun
So, I went and looked at that video, and it looks like two homosexual dolphins trying to bake a cake. It's retarded. Anybody who does it is retarded.
Just because two retards wail on each other like schoolkids doesn't mean that Wing Chun is effective. Admittedly, though, it's nice to see Chunners scraping at least. It's progress.
lol maybe it wasn't the best example but as you can see wing chun isn't fantasy sparring and there is ground game just you don't do bjj stuff like bars and chokes instead you do beat down like in mma and that just shows he is wrong. and ignorant besides come on Bruce lee's first learn't style was wing chun.
this guy is weird I respect him but how can mma be healthy? or any martial art? you get your head banged with fist how the hell is that healthy !!!!!!!! hahaha that's just bullshit martial arts can never be all healthy you do martial arts so you know you have to sacrifise some things.
And Joe, seriously? The Light Heavyweight Champion of the World can kick my ass? No shit Sherlock.
Koji Ogata? Does he fight in Shooto, I can never keep track of all those guys. What's his MMA record?
And yes, I have eaten a knee when I was shooting in before. It helped me improve my shot, actually. Not fun, but part of learning. And shooting on concrete? No, but I've landed plenty of trips on concrete, usually from a thumb-in collar grip or an underhook or body lock. What's your point?
are actually more effective at escaping grappling scenarios than BJJ and Judo, which is just absurd. BJJers and Judokas practice escapes against fully resisting, skilled opponents CONSTANTLY, whereas "street-tactics" people PRETEND to escape from grappling scenarios, against co-operative opponents. That is the difference.
It's interesting to note that Army Combatives appears to be identical to BJJ in many respects, hmm? It's almost as if BJJ has proven to be highly effective in self defense.
"Combatives can not be really applied without killing people. "
"In fact bjj is not for self defence either. "
"(True Martial Arts) They needn't have any real world application at all . . . "
"These (self-defense forms) have major interest in breaking out of grappling scenarios like grabs chokes etc . . . "
It's statements like this that prove that you are living in a fantasy world, David. You truly seem to believe that Live Action Role Playing arts like RAT,
BJJ or catch wrestling against ANY other art, tactic, dance, or sport. A good high school wrestler would kick most of your asses. It's pathetic.
If you think there's some way to martial proficiency without grappling, fine. You're delusional, but fine. I don't have to hang out with you, what do I care? But I'm just through being polite to you people. You do not understand combat, because you people just uke-jerk each other and pretend you're badasses.
It is somewhat odd, then, that a decent BJJ blue belt would beat the ever loving snot out of any of these Tactic nerds in any fight, under any condition. I don't know why I have to keep having this same argument, but why exactly do you think you would end up in the top position against a trained grappler?
You would be on the bottom getting mauled. Fact. If you can't wrestle or do BJJ, you are, in a word, fucked. No one is suggesting that BJJ is a "complete" self defense art, but I would take
It makes a lot of sense and in some crowds, some remarks could be seen as controversial but I think are truths. Will let u guess what parts I am referring to...
The only problem with what your saying it that it doesn't apply to martial "ARTS". It applies to martial sports very well, but not art forms. Look at your own category to the right that you listed this under. Why does an ART have to be competetive at all?
Because the art is in the doing of it, and the "it" is combat. If your "art" is ineffective in combat, and you aware of that and choose to practice it anyway, then you need to admit that to yourself. The problem comes when you lie to yourself and tell yourself that your "art" is effective in real combat, when it is not.
That mentality is unhealthy. Imagine if someone told you they did yoga for self defense. That person does not have a grip on reality. Why would it be different for Wing Chun?
No the art isn't in the doing of it. The "sport" of your sport is in the doing of it. A lot of people in a lot of martial arts are not in it for self defence. In fact bjj is not for self defence either. It is a 1v1 sport that is inappropriate for multiple attacker or weapon scenarios.
So, wait, I'm confused. How is a Martial Art not for self defense?
I think I know. A Martial Art is not for self defense when it doesn't work for self defense, and people need to come up with a plausible explanation for why they keep doing it. If you want to pretend that whatever Dragon Punch Tactics bullshit you practice to fight off fantasy attackers wielding ninja swords is effective in real life, that's your problem.
You must know how to wrestle in order to defend yourself. Period.
I really just don't understand where you're coming from here. If the art isn't in successfully preforming the techniques against a resisting opponent, then where is it? Energy drills? Katas? Demonstrations? Board-breaking?
Bullshit.
The art is in the performance, the effectiveness. And to say what you just did about BJJ shows a depth of ignorance that's just unfathomable to me in 2009. Who told you that crap? That's fucking absurd.
Your understanding of Martial Arts is not based in reality.
Its not what someone told me. Its what I know from experience. Your confused as to what is art what is sport what is self defence and what is combatives. These are all very different things. True martial arts are art forms that are based upon combatives concepts. They needn't have any real world application at all and usually are not trained with real application as even close to a primary objective. Martial sports like bjj are sports that were spawned from martial arts. They require effective
application but only in a controlled 1v1 environment. Self defence systems are rare. These have major interest in breaking out of grappling scenarios like grabs chokes etc so as to get to stand up where one could run if need be as per the attackers home boys etc and so have little to no interest in getting tied up on the ground. Parker style kenpo is a martial art taught in a defensive context for example that is actually only about 20% about self defence scenarios. Toshindo's hand to hand
system is almost 100% about self defence scenarios. Bjj is almost completely devoid of real world self defence even though it is very effective in honor bound 1v1 fights where you know the guy you triangle for evample isn't going to pull a knife or something out of his pants and stab you from under your bacg and that his buds aren't going to jump in as your tied up with him. Arts need NO real world application. Sports need real application in controlled situations. Self defence situations need
application in a wide range of scenarios. Combatives can not be really applied without killing people. Can you see the differences I am trying to point out? Whether you like it or not more people do martial ARTS for the same reasons as people do yoga than for any kind of sport application as you do your sports for. Its not BS. Thats just the way things are whether you like it or not.
What kind of expierence do u have? As a MMa fighter, and been involved in many street fights, and trained in Jkd/Kali, and other arts. U need a strong base in the Combat arts Boxing/Thai Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, Bjj, to make anything else work. There's no better way of engaging someone in a real life situation, than in a Boxing stance, and start throwing combos, then from there u can do your Kempo throat strike, or whatever else u like. U need to be well rounded, MMa is the only training for tha
Need? For what? For applications that you have in mind. I am not argueing against that. Thats not relevent to my point. Another thing that isn't relevent to the point is the answer that I have three black belts. I personaly do enjoy sparring and ground grappling applications. I have enjoyed randori with bjj and 10th planet practitioners. And none of that is relevent to the point that I was making.
So if u train in Bjj, and cross train with 10th planet, u already have a base in some Alive arts, so what point are u making? Besides, like Haircutdeluxe said, its easier to teach someone well Trained in Bjj and MMa how to react in combative routines, then some else with inferior prior training. All I'm saying is u need The combats arts for your base, then if u want to take up "street combat systems" Kali, Jkd, Krav Maga, etc,etc, u have a much better chance of really applying your skills.
Again, you clearly do not understand the point of the whole discussion. A student of combatives does not have the ability to defend themselves against a well-trained amateur MMA athlete. They're not even on the same block.
This is because your silly combative routines are not alive, they're just fantasy role-playing. Were you to teach street-survival stuff to a group of well trained BJJ or MMA students that would be one thing, but you don't do that. You prey on fat dudes, women, and guys with
poor self esteem, and convince them that they can defend themselves with shitty "situational" sparring and magic "street" techniques. You people are just out-and-out full of shit. It's goddamn ridiculous.
The idea that one of you street-tactic nerds is more prepared to defend himself than a guy who trains boxing, wrestling, and BJJ isn't just silly, it's actually sort of sad. Kind of like a retarded little child.
"Bjj is almost completely devoid of real world self defence . . . " Just WOW.
No you didn't understand the point of the discussion. Stop speculating and making false accusations in the place of taking the time to read past the first line of what was said.
The only reason Machida can do what he does is the fact that he has been training BJJ since he was 15, and is a black belt. He also spent a great deal of time in Thailand learning Muay Thai.
The guy is just a different level of fighter as far as I'm concerned, He is so good in the conventional ranges that he can use Shotokan techniques that would definitely put us "normal" humans in danger.
In other words, it's Machida, and his lifetime of training and competition which wins, not Shotokan.
@haircutdeluxe Machida actually based a lot of his style off of Bruce Lee. In fact, many great fighters were either inspired or influenced by Bruce in some way.
i agree with this guy with nearly everything he sed but wen he sed if u put traditional karate practitioner such as shotokan against a modern fighter...it turns to a beating....thats not ALWAYS true. look at lyoto machida for example...i admit he is one of the very few who has been successful with mma having shotokan karate as his primary martial art. still im just saying its not always a beating lol....
With the gi, control the wrists, and shoot one leg through for the triangle. This move rules. You can get a good explosive launch into this, look in his ear, and apply the lock. And pull down on his head real hard.
I think both are cool, but some mostly Gi players use the collar and wrist gi grips too much. Also Ive had guys trying to choke me out with my tshirt, its amusing :D
There's one on youtube, search "rat choke". Chris Haueter has a very practical disc on t-shirt chokes, distributed by SBG. Mostly they involve grabbing a chunk of the shirt (sometimes far from the collar, say low on the back) and winding it around the neck in a way that chokes securely but doesn't tear the shirt. If the shirt rips, the choke is lost.
Matt is very big on gi training. I think gi is great but I think its best to do both. The gi does make your game tighter cause you cant make as many mistakes
@gbell76 everything you say has been disproven with evidence. and the evidence overwhelmingly favors training with full-resistance. on the street with no rules, i'll take the judoka over a karateka, any day. it's not the techniques, it's the training methods. i studied hapkido. i bought your line for awhile then i woke up and got into bjj and boxing. again, jigoro kano's judo crushed traditional jiujiutsu, the supposedly deadly combat art. you need to think about why that is.
giovannito858 1 month ago
True self defense martial arts such as Karate or Japanese ju-jitsu cannot be practically taught in an "aliveness " method. If it were there would be no partners to work with. i.e. groin grabs and twists, eye gouges, ridge hand throat chops fish hooks etc, etc. With that being said I can see an area of common ground where you can try and train both.
gbell76 1 month ago
@gbell76 save that nonsense for people that don't know better. traditional jiujitsu was crushed by judo in the late 19th century and early twentieth century. why? because of the training methods of judo. "aliveness" if you will. the art doesn't matter, the methods do. boxers, wrestlers, muay thai-ists, bjj practitioners, the aforementioned judo have a distinct advantage over traditional styles. namely, full-resistance training. traditional arts amount to no more than self-aggrandizement.
giovannito858 1 month ago
@giovannito858 Nonsense you say? I beg to differ. Unlike most people, I have had the misfortune/fortune to use my 18+ years of training in traditional martial arts in the street and in actual life/death situations. I work in security and I love when I see the new guy with cauliflower ear that says that he trains in BJJ try and intervene in one on one or melee type situations. They overwhelming walk away with the most injuries.
gbell76 1 month ago
@giovannito858 I'll repeat myself slowly... traditional martial arts in a self defense aspect cannot be practiced in an "aliveness" fashion. So based on your logic, I should actually eye gouge, and fish hook the orbital of my training partner, followed by a shin scrape and a groin twist to "prove" that it could've been done? Nonsense!! I'm not saying that Boxing/BJJ/Mui Thai cannot be effective in the street. But make no mistake... they Are sport.
gbell76 1 month ago
@giovannito858 I'll go up against any one of those in the street. And I'll simply say... "You fight your fight according to how you've been trained and your rules, and I'll fight mine" The reason why traditional Jiujitsu was crushed back then is the same reason that you see in these older BJJ vs Karate videos. The training.
gbell76 1 month ago
@giovannito858 The Karate person has not trained for the level of athleticism/long term fighting as the BJJ practitioner, and cannot reasonably apply the permanently injuring techniques that he has been taught, therefore he falls into the BJJ practitioners trap (who is going at 100 mph in his discipline btw). That wont happen as much in this modern day. Because authentic Karateka (practitioners) will not get caught up in such fool hearty endeavors.
gbell76 1 month ago
@giovannito858 Because when we go... we go full tilt and and every strike/technique is executed with the intent to kill/immobilize not just tap...
gbell76 1 month ago
Funny: demonstrating LACK of "aliveness" in one's own words while talking about 'aliveness"...
grozde 1 month ago
most people forget what mma is mma is not a fighting style of it's own like it is becoming which is pretty sad. MMA stands for mixed martial arts so you mix martial arts one art like wing chun would be useless against some one who does real mma. Fighters are making mma a mixture of bjj and kickboxing. They neglect all other martial arts and sometimes they just brawl like if they had no training at all, but it sells so that's what they do.
650sFinnest 11 months ago
Bruce lee, huh? Where's he teaching these days?
haircutdeluxe 1 year ago
A good point, sort of. BJJ is sparred at varying levels of competitiveness, depending on the circumstances. What you are talking about is sparring MMA, not BJJ, as BJJ does not include striking in its techniques. A lot of people call what you describe "jits with hits", and it is very common.
However, BJJ's lack of striking does not reduce its effectiveness, as it is only one facet of a martial artist's game. Wing Chun is completely ineffective, not to mention stupid looking.
haircutdeluxe 1 year ago 2
Is he a philosopher? Politican? or a Fighter?
I found everything in there ;)
damuschka 2 years ago
Wing Chun DOES do fantasy sparring, and that video is proof. People don't really fight like that in real life. In real life, if you grab another man's head, he is not going to let you elbow him six times before he pulls away. The only reason that, or half of the other things in that video happened, was because those guys are "Wing Chun sparring", ie, sparring inside the fantastical, mystical world of Wing Chun.
Were they to spar with someone with MMA training, it would be embarrassing.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
@haircutdeluxe Is true about Wing Chun but also true about BJJ. If watch BJJ even if agree with everything said in video here still have to ask what if we make more alive in clinch and say here knee to groin here elbow here headbut here bite nose? Then BJJ become more alive not less alive and more idea from other martial arts brothers become more make sense at last maybe?
Liftgazer 1 year ago
@haircutdeluxe I disagree and agree with your argument, I do wing chun and spared with of other styles. Standing up wing chun is a great fighting systeem. But If I got against a MMA training I would be beat. But because I dont know how to be good and effective on the ground. But still look at for examle a move from MMA. I got choked by a guillotine choke. I am on the ground In MMA I can only tap out.. In Wing Chun I would just hit him fucking hard in the balls? So how do we measure?
Ben1987X 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Matt Thornton is Bullshido watch this video people
650sFinnest 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
basides who the hell is matt thorton I've never heard of him he sure as hell ain't no champion or anything and people train at his gym and treat him like he is something when he is nothing but a joke
650sFinnest 2 years ago
Everything u do must be alive, or it won't work in any situation. It's just like Paul Vunak said, if u want to make your standup art work, u have to equate it against a boxer/Thaiboxer. U should have someone who has good training, put on the gloves, throw punches at u, and try to work what u would try to pull off in a real fight, a takedown, slipping, ducking, blocking and hitting, low leg kicks, etc,. The same can be said with ground fighting, train with some who's good in bjj, or wrestling.
poohpoohcaca 2 years ago
judo is a traditional martial art hello hahahahahahaha
650sFinnest 2 years ago
Yes, and so are boxing and wrestling, which predate Judo by, what, 3000 years? All three are highly effective in combat, because they train with aliveness.
But that's neither here nor there. Like Matt says in the video, if boxers started fantasy-sparring like wing-chun, they wouldn't be able to box, and if wrestlers start crappling like Master Waki, they wouldn't be able to wrestle.
Pretending to grapple against an opponent is not effective training. Your opponent must provide resistance.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
ummmm do you even now what wing chun is???? it's just like boxing sparring is all out intense fist hammering to each others faces you apperantly have never seen a wing-chun sparring session
650sFinnest 2 years ago
oh sorry bout the last coment I thought you said that wingchun is fantasy sparring. this guy matt needs to get his facts straight and actually know what he is talking about first
650sFinnest 2 years ago
so in wing chun you fantasy spar? take a look at real wing chun full contact sparring watch this video "Wing Chun full contact (Wing Tsun Kong Sau)" this is full contact wing chun
650sFinnest 2 years ago
So, I went and looked at that video, and it looks like two homosexual dolphins trying to bake a cake. It's retarded. Anybody who does it is retarded.
Just because two retards wail on each other like schoolkids doesn't mean that Wing Chun is effective. Admittedly, though, it's nice to see Chunners scraping at least. It's progress.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
lol maybe it wasn't the best example but as you can see wing chun isn't fantasy sparring and there is ground game just you don't do bjj stuff like bars and chokes instead you do beat down like in mma and that just shows he is wrong. and ignorant besides come on Bruce lee's first learn't style was wing chun.
650sFinnest 2 years ago
@650sFinnest And he also said WC was crap and found it ineffective.
patrickhenrysghost 11 months ago
this guy is weird I respect him but how can mma be healthy? or any martial art? you get your head banged with fist how the hell is that healthy !!!!!!!! hahaha that's just bullshit martial arts can never be all healthy you do martial arts so you know you have to sacrifise some things.
650sFinnest 2 years ago
And Joe, seriously? The Light Heavyweight Champion of the World can kick my ass? No shit Sherlock.
Koji Ogata? Does he fight in Shooto, I can never keep track of all those guys. What's his MMA record?
And yes, I have eaten a knee when I was shooting in before. It helped me improve my shot, actually. Not fun, but part of learning. And shooting on concrete? No, but I've landed plenty of trips on concrete, usually from a thumb-in collar grip or an underhook or body lock. What's your point?
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
are actually more effective at escaping grappling scenarios than BJJ and Judo, which is just absurd. BJJers and Judokas practice escapes against fully resisting, skilled opponents CONSTANTLY, whereas "street-tactics" people PRETEND to escape from grappling scenarios, against co-operative opponents. That is the difference.
It's interesting to note that Army Combatives appears to be identical to BJJ in many respects, hmm? It's almost as if BJJ has proven to be highly effective in self defense.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
Sure, David, I'll do that.
"Combatives can not be really applied without killing people. "
"In fact bjj is not for self defence either. "
"(True Martial Arts) They needn't have any real world application at all . . . "
"These (self-defense forms) have major interest in breaking out of grappling scenarios like grabs chokes etc . . . "
It's statements like this that prove that you are living in a fantasy world, David. You truly seem to believe that Live Action Role Playing arts like RAT,
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
Comment removed
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
BJJ or catch wrestling against ANY other art, tactic, dance, or sport. A good high school wrestler would kick most of your asses. It's pathetic.
If you think there's some way to martial proficiency without grappling, fine. You're delusional, but fine. I don't have to hang out with you, what do I care? But I'm just through being polite to you people. You do not understand combat, because you people just uke-jerk each other and pretend you're badasses.
You are not living in the real world.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago 2
Ever eaten a knee while shooting? It fucking hurts. Ever shot on concrete? That fuckin hurts too.
jitteryjoe 2 years ago
Comment removed
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
It is somewhat odd, then, that a decent BJJ blue belt would beat the ever loving snot out of any of these Tactic nerds in any fight, under any condition. I don't know why I have to keep having this same argument, but why exactly do you think you would end up in the top position against a trained grappler?
You would be on the bottom getting mauled. Fact. If you can't wrestle or do BJJ, you are, in a word, fucked. No one is suggesting that BJJ is a "complete" self defense art, but I would take
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago 2
Well said Matt.
It makes a lot of sense and in some crowds, some remarks could be seen as controversial but I think are truths. Will let u guess what parts I am referring to...
Great vid.
lowtechcombat 2 years ago
The only problem with what your saying it that it doesn't apply to martial "ARTS". It applies to martial sports very well, but not art forms. Look at your own category to the right that you listed this under. Why does an ART have to be competetive at all?
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
Because the art is in the doing of it, and the "it" is combat. If your "art" is ineffective in combat, and you aware of that and choose to practice it anyway, then you need to admit that to yourself. The problem comes when you lie to yourself and tell yourself that your "art" is effective in real combat, when it is not.
That mentality is unhealthy. Imagine if someone told you they did yoga for self defense. That person does not have a grip on reality. Why would it be different for Wing Chun?
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
No the art isn't in the doing of it. The "sport" of your sport is in the doing of it. A lot of people in a lot of martial arts are not in it for self defence. In fact bjj is not for self defence either. It is a 1v1 sport that is inappropriate for multiple attacker or weapon scenarios.
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
So, wait, I'm confused. How is a Martial Art not for self defense?
I think I know. A Martial Art is not for self defense when it doesn't work for self defense, and people need to come up with a plausible explanation for why they keep doing it. If you want to pretend that whatever Dragon Punch Tactics bullshit you practice to fight off fantasy attackers wielding ninja swords is effective in real life, that's your problem.
You must know how to wrestle in order to defend yourself. Period.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
I really just don't understand where you're coming from here. If the art isn't in successfully preforming the techniques against a resisting opponent, then where is it? Energy drills? Katas? Demonstrations? Board-breaking?
Bullshit.
The art is in the performance, the effectiveness. And to say what you just did about BJJ shows a depth of ignorance that's just unfathomable to me in 2009. Who told you that crap? That's fucking absurd.
Your understanding of Martial Arts is not based in reality.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
Its not what someone told me. Its what I know from experience. Your confused as to what is art what is sport what is self defence and what is combatives. These are all very different things. True martial arts are art forms that are based upon combatives concepts. They needn't have any real world application at all and usually are not trained with real application as even close to a primary objective. Martial sports like bjj are sports that were spawned from martial arts. They require effective
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
application but only in a controlled 1v1 environment. Self defence systems are rare. These have major interest in breaking out of grappling scenarios like grabs chokes etc so as to get to stand up where one could run if need be as per the attackers home boys etc and so have little to no interest in getting tied up on the ground. Parker style kenpo is a martial art taught in a defensive context for example that is actually only about 20% about self defence scenarios. Toshindo's hand to hand
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
system is almost 100% about self defence scenarios. Bjj is almost completely devoid of real world self defence even though it is very effective in honor bound 1v1 fights where you know the guy you triangle for evample isn't going to pull a knife or something out of his pants and stab you from under your bacg and that his buds aren't going to jump in as your tied up with him. Arts need NO real world application. Sports need real application in controlled situations. Self defence situations need
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
application in a wide range of scenarios. Combatives can not be really applied without killing people. Can you see the differences I am trying to point out? Whether you like it or not more people do martial ARTS for the same reasons as people do yoga than for any kind of sport application as you do your sports for. Its not BS. Thats just the way things are whether you like it or not.
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
What kind of expierence do u have? As a MMa fighter, and been involved in many street fights, and trained in Jkd/Kali, and other arts. U need a strong base in the Combat arts Boxing/Thai Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, Bjj, to make anything else work. There's no better way of engaging someone in a real life situation, than in a Boxing stance, and start throwing combos, then from there u can do your Kempo throat strike, or whatever else u like. U need to be well rounded, MMa is the only training for tha
poohpoohcaca 2 years ago
Need? For what? For applications that you have in mind. I am not argueing against that. Thats not relevent to my point. Another thing that isn't relevent to the point is the answer that I have three black belts. I personaly do enjoy sparring and ground grappling applications. I have enjoyed randori with bjj and 10th planet practitioners. And none of that is relevent to the point that I was making.
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
So if u train in Bjj, and cross train with 10th planet, u already have a base in some Alive arts, so what point are u making? Besides, like Haircutdeluxe said, its easier to teach someone well Trained in Bjj and MMa how to react in combative routines, then some else with inferior prior training. All I'm saying is u need The combats arts for your base, then if u want to take up "street combat systems" Kali, Jkd, Krav Maga, etc,etc, u have a much better chance of really applying your skills.
poohpoohcaca 2 years ago
Again, you clearly do not understand the point of the whole discussion. A student of combatives does not have the ability to defend themselves against a well-trained amateur MMA athlete. They're not even on the same block.
This is because your silly combative routines are not alive, they're just fantasy role-playing. Were you to teach street-survival stuff to a group of well trained BJJ or MMA students that would be one thing, but you don't do that. You prey on fat dudes, women, and guys with
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
poor self esteem, and convince them that they can defend themselves with shitty "situational" sparring and magic "street" techniques. You people are just out-and-out full of shit. It's goddamn ridiculous.
The idea that one of you street-tactic nerds is more prepared to defend himself than a guy who trains boxing, wrestling, and BJJ isn't just silly, it's actually sort of sad. Kind of like a retarded little child.
"Bjj is almost completely devoid of real world self defence . . . " Just WOW.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
No you didn't understand the point of the discussion. Stop speculating and making false accusations in the place of taking the time to read past the first line of what was said.
WaiteDavid137 2 years ago
Nobody said that, I'm saying Machida, Me, Koji Ogata, so on could kick the shit out of you with traditional moves on top of wrestling and bjj.
jitteryjoe 2 years ago
The only reason Machida can do what he does is the fact that he has been training BJJ since he was 15, and is a black belt. He also spent a great deal of time in Thailand learning Muay Thai.
The guy is just a different level of fighter as far as I'm concerned, He is so good in the conventional ranges that he can use Shotokan techniques that would definitely put us "normal" humans in danger.
In other words, it's Machida, and his lifetime of training and competition which wins, not Shotokan.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago 7
@haircutdeluxe Machida actually based a lot of his style off of Bruce Lee. In fact, many great fighters were either inspired or influenced by Bruce in some way.
DuykRuyk 1 year ago
@haircutdeluxe and his Muay thai
xIegionx 8 months ago
i agree with this guy with nearly everything he sed but wen he sed if u put traditional karate practitioner such as shotokan against a modern fighter...it turns to a beating....thats not ALWAYS true. look at lyoto machida for example...i admit he is one of the very few who has been successful with mma having shotokan karate as his primary martial art. still im just saying its not always a beating lol....
prettyprince567 2 years ago
With the gi, control the wrists, and shoot one leg through for the triangle. This move rules. You can get a good explosive launch into this, look in his ear, and apply the lock. And pull down on his head real hard.
And I am loving the arm triangle right now.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
SBG requires everyone to train both gi and no-gi.
I personally love the gi game.
IronMongoose1 2 years ago
I think both are cool, but some mostly Gi players use the collar and wrist gi grips too much. Also Ive had guys trying to choke me out with my tshirt, its amusing :D
aikighost 2 years ago
There are some chokes that use the t-shirt, such as the rat choke. Certainly you can't use it just like the gi.
IronMongoose1 2 years ago
Cool. Not sure Ive seen that one. Got any video of it?
aikighost 2 years ago
There's one on youtube, search "rat choke". Chris Haueter has a very practical disc on t-shirt chokes, distributed by SBG. Mostly they involve grabbing a chunk of the shirt (sometimes far from the collar, say low on the back) and winding it around the neck in a way that chokes securely but doesn't tear the shirt. If the shirt rips, the choke is lost.
IronMongoose1 2 years ago
Perfect logic, beautifully articulated.
RonnySayfan 3 years ago 2
Wise wise words!
joergus 3 years ago
Matt is very big on gi training. I think gi is great but I think its best to do both. The gi does make your game tighter cause you cant make as many mistakes
mmaguy2008 3 years ago 2
additionally, people don't walk around in speedo's 24/7. you can grab peoples clothing in a fight ;)
Jonobos 3 years ago 6
Yep but its nowhere near as effective as the GI.
aikighost 2 years ago
Collar chokes work very well with coats/sweaters/hoodies. Winter clothing holds up very well compared to the gi.
Jonobos 2 years ago
I guess it all depends on where you live :D
aikighost 2 years ago
Matt's a BJJ black belt, so I'd assume he believes at least somewhat in gi training.
Yojimbo1717 3 years ago
What is Matts opinion on the Gi vs. No Gi?
EvanChaim 3 years ago
Thanks for the videos
grapplerwannabe 4 years ago 2