Factual information? And yet the bible depicts you atheists to a Tee, obviously you're blinded by what the world says about God. I've never understood how people can just assume that there's no God but not try to find the real answer. you're not even smart enough to know that your poor poor little video has nothing at all to do with blasphemy. The whole blasphemy challenge needs to pitch in for a new education. God knows your ignorance is abundant, he obviously has patience with it.
interesting. I always wondered about the babel fish argument. So a real being ceases to exist because of an argument? No, not likely. What is, is. This is a classic "straw man" argument. It is very funny though.
BTW, what is the point of your "blasphemy"? What do you achieve? How does it benefit you?
I hope and pray you hear His voice one day. bless you :)
...I'm 17, and I'm glad you've resorted to attacking my age. Pretty easy to discredit someone by saying, "Oh, you're young, you don't know anything," isn't it?
How old are you...13? Yes, I'm sure you have all the answers. You can't even drive, and yet you have all the answers. Get out into the world before making such a decision.
And how much of a "Radical Atheist" can you be at 13? Does your mom drive you to the protest sites?
By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars we hung our harps,for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" How can we sing the songs of the LORD while in a foreign land?
Who is this that speaks words with out knowledge!! Education is the antidote to stupid!! Don't just hold the books up, you need to read them!! about like a 2 year old trying to rationalize quantum physics.
Blah blah blah, telesniper... try explaining then why you don't believe in the other gods from history. Complete fallacy. You can't argue for your god and deny others without coming off as a hypocrite.
It amuses me how many people will patronize me rather than come up with some decent arguments. I don't have to disprove anything, you have to prove it. Show me there's something that can in fact transcend the constraints of the universe and I'll consider your position.
Haha, you obviously don't understand the concepts of rationality and scientific method. The existence of god is outside the realm of science because it can't be tested empirically. Therefore the only thing that we have left is our own logic to determine the existence of god. It is about as rationally sound to accept the existence of god as it is to deny it.
It means you can test it using your senses ie. digging to the center of the earth (which isn't possible yet) and looking with your eyes to see what is actually there.
oh, I see. Well, in that case I would have to disagree that science is limited to the empirically tested. You can certainly detect the center of the earth with instruments other than human senses. I thought you meant what could be detected through any means.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But, brothers, when we were torn away from you for a short time (in person, not in thought), out of our intense longing we made every effort to see you. encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
You have wearied the LORD with your words. "How have we wearied him?" you ask. By saying, "All who do evil are good in the eyes of the LORD, and he is pleased with them" or "Where is the God of justice?"Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you, and your destruction of animals will terrify you. For you have shed man's blood; you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them. I struck all the work of your hands with blight, mildew and hail, yet you did not turn to me,' declares the LORD.
I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.
Let the priests, who minister before the LORD, weep between the temple porch and the altar. Let them say, "Spare your people, O LORD. Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?' "
The LORD has done what he planned; he has fulfilled his word, which he decreed long ago. He has overthrown you without pity, he has let the enemy gloat over you, he has exalted the horn [d] of your foes. Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah.
So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, turn, my lover, and be like a gazelle or like a young stag on the rugged hills. [c]
Now the king was attracted to Esther more than to any of the other women, and she won his favor and approval more than any of the other virgins. So he set a royal crown on her head and made her queen instead of Vashti. who has left the partner of her youth and ignored the covenant she made before God. [a
Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600. of Bezai 323 Then I said to them, "You see the trouble we are in: Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, and we will no longer be in disgrace."
But they persisted until he was too ashamed to refuse. So he said, "Send them." And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. Abigail was the mother of Amasa, whose father was Jether the Ishmaelite. Caleb Son of Hezron
This sin of the young men was very great in the LORD's sight, for they [d] were treating the LORD's offering with contempt. The battle that day was very fierce, and Abner and the men of Israel were defeated by David's men. So he continued, "Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife."
Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. Unlike their fathers, they quickly turned from the way in which their fathers had walked, the way of obedience to the LORD's commands. So Ruth gleaned in the field until evening. Then she threshed the barley she had gathered, and it amounted to about an ephah. [a]
Some shepherds came along and drove them away, but Moses got up and came to their rescue and watered their flock. Then the Tent of Meeting and the camp of the Levites will set out in the middle of the camps. They will set out in the same order as they encamp, each in his own place under his standard.
the LORD said to me, The men said to her, "This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us
Part 3. I would not deny the existence of 'The Holy Spirit', I don't know what it means, but I could quite happily deny the existence of the supernatural. Would that be good enough for you?
Part 2. So much of The Bible and of Christ's teachings are allegorical and whilst I think it's fine to be 'a radical atheist' it may be arrogant to turn ones back on the teachings: The Sermon on The Mount for example - the best example in fact - would serve any atheist seeking to construct a set of radical values by which to live, but you have to read between the lines
Part 1. I put it to you that you can be christian/A Christian and, at the same time, quite openly, be an atheist; and, that it is quite acceptable to suppose that Jesus Christ was an atheist. To say that The Bible is unreliable is simplistic. It is a fantastic cocktail of history, mythology and philosophy. And who says that it is the written word of God? It doesn't make that claim for itself.
The Bible is one of the most reliable historical documents we have in the West. Nothing the Bible purports to have occurred has ever been disproven. In fact, the contrary occurs every year or so among our archaeological and historical communities. Your assaults on religion are a classic example of the wikipedia-schooled arrogance of our generation.
Thank you for the video. I'm sure some theists will watch your video and want to say you are wrong. But, there will be this little part of their rational minds that says, "what if she is right?". Why is the Bible full of torture, rape, child killing, genocide, etc? Some of them will wake up and realize there is no god.
You opened with how unreliable the Bible is. Actually archeologists use the Bible to determine where to do countless numbers of studies. The scriptures of the Bible are in fact so reliable that the Smithsonian Institute's most prized possessions would never have been found if they had not first been found in the Bible, which told them where they still were. Do you have any idea what you are capable of WITH God?
errr... they used the Iliad to help them find Troy, too. Geographical accuracy has nothing to do with historical validity. WITH god? So when's the last time you moved a mountain, mustardseed?
errr...i listened to the video. did you? what was said was that the bible is about as reliable as "Myths & Legends". When's the last time a myth did anything tangible? cool your jets there, scooter.
errr...i listened to the video. did you? what was said was that the bible is about as reliable as "Myths & Legends". When's the last time a myth did anything tangible? cool your jets there, scooter.
oh, and i've seen far more than mountains moved with the faith of a mustardseed. i've seen hearts like yours transformed thousands of times. caution... you may be closer to an awakening than you know.
Right, of course, the Iliad is an accurate historical document. Sorry, I forgot. I go through awakenings all the time. You learn new information, you use it to change your worldview. It's called growing. Unfortunately, the awakening you're talking about would be a step backwards in my case.
This video was well put together and it was really mature, and respectable (I am a christian but I'm really liberal and respect all views) until you called Jesus a masochist. It was unfounded and childish and it really discredited you.
By the way, Skyweirdo is one of the few pleasent atheists with whom I've ever diolgued. Her video takes a very unkind smack at Jesus, and that's pretty typical, but I found her to be reasonablly nice when engaged in diologue. Most launch very quickly into profanity and personal attacks. She didn't. Just to give credit where it's due.
punnet2 has pointed out to me that we are kind of taking over SkyWeirdo's video page. Sorry bout that SkyWeirdo - I'm kind of new to YouTube, and I guess I don't really know the etiquette. My bad. I'm out. May you have peace.
eh, I'm fine with it. I'm done arguing with you for a while, but if punnet2's got some decent discussion to add then I'm all for donating my page for it... oh, and it's SkyWierdo, the mispelling is on purpose.
I was kinda thinking the same thing. Yeah, so I'm done, too. Fun while it lasted, but we're past the point where we're actually learning anything from each other. Goodbye, then.
Define "impossible event"? If you said three hundred years ago - I will fly across the ocean, that would be an impossible event. Fifty years ago, this midium of communication we are using would have been fiction. A thing that never happened before could never happen? Who deciedes what's possible? How could we ever know what is possible and what is not.
Look, a part of me really enjoys this, but I really should stop. You are unlikely to convince me that the experiences I've had with God are false, or that my faith is false. I think I'm unlikely to convince you of anything either. Perhaps if we could sit as real people and have a cup of tea or something, but this medium is more about scoring points than sharing our hearts or lives.
As to the historicity of the Bible, you have the same problem with it that you have with every historical document. Did Pontious Pilate exist? How do you give an answer to that? Was there ever a Julius Caeser? Any document that claims to be historical cannot be proven to anyone who did not actually observe the event. All must be taken on "faith",
Usually, if a historical document talks about impossible events, the source cannot be accepted as fact. Take the Iliad and the Odyssey, for example. Also, when a book contradicts itself as much as the Bible, it can't really be taken seriously. Dr. King got most of his pacifistic ideas from Gandhi, despite him being able to find some convenient quotes in the Bible.
Martin Luther King didn't get his stuff from the Bible? How does this grab you: ". . . we will not be satisfied until 'justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream.'" The Hebrew prophets are full of social justice stuff, and Dr. King is a great example of that stream of thought. How about this: "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other also." Dr. King's ideas of peaceful resistance come from the mouth of the very man you mock - Jesus Christ.
Sigh . . . no, they came from Martain Luther King Jr. He was, perhaps, influenced by Gandhi. But King was a Christian minister. He embraced truth wherever he found it. Gandhi had truth that did not contradict Christ, and in fact squared with what Christ taught. But of course you can believe what ever you want to believe.
How about the cross - the ultimate peaceful resistance. He did what he taught, and for those who understand the cross, it teaches peaceful resistance to evil. You don't get it, but that doesn't mean that MLK Jr. didn't. He was a Christian minister. He got it. He saw in Gandhi what actually living it could do.
Compared to independence or civil rights, I'm not sure what crucifixion accomplished, other than a torn curtain in the temple. I also have to wonder if MLK would have been a christian if not for the slave trade.
Gandhi, for his part, is known to have asked why christians are so unlike their christ.
Yes, there is room for Gandhi's criticism. Christians, being broken people, are not as successful as Jesus at being truly good people. What does atheism make of people? Bitterness seems to be the most common recurring theme.
The fact that you do not understand the cross does not reduce it's power. I am freed by it, and made a much better person with it than I would be with out it. You don't get it, but that doesn't mean that no one does.
Where are you getting bitter from? My bitterness quotient dropped the day I stopped attending church. There's nothing bitter about realizing you don't have to kow-tow to some jealous old man in the sky.
Inasmuch as there are thousands of christian denominations in operation, it would appear that noone understands the cross. Maybe you should try understanding kaaba stone, or the mandala, or the yinyang...or maybe just the theory of evolution.
Sure, NOBODY has ever understood crosslife. No one. Bonhoffer of Germany, Francis of Assisi, Patrick of Ireland, Martain Luther King Jr., Wilberforce, Teresa of Calcutta, Pascal of France, C.S. Lewis, John of the Cross, Thomas A'Kempis, A.W. Tozer - all these nobodies. I'm greatful to be among them. See 1 Cor. 1:25-31.
As to bitterness - is not the whole Blasphemy Challenege an exploration of the bitterness of the human heart? Believe what ever you want to believe - why attack the belief life of others. The BC is nothing but an attack on Christians and their faith - simple as that. Bitter.
If grown adults believed in unicorns and tooth fairies, would it show bitterness on our part that we seek to dissuade them? What is bitter about letting go of delusions and embracing reality?
If anyone is being conditioned for a life of bitterness, it would be the kids at jesus camp.
Thing is, you cannot attack a person's faith and not attack that person. If I attack your ability to reason, I attack you, yes? The equivalent of reason in you is faith in most of the rest of the world. It is at the center of a person's identity. And why do you do it? It makes others feel bad. This is making the world better? It is bitter.
I certainly do understand true xianity - a myth open to thousands of interpretations - without even enough continuity to prevent internecine warfare. Brother Willy, or brother Sammy was an anglican? Sure, but sons Robbie and Henry switched sides to the vatican.
I'm glad you acknowledge that it's faith vs. reason. On the basis of faith, unicorns are as real as jesus. (Ha. No joke.) Compare the Dark Ages, where the Black Death was considered a punishment by god (faith), to today, where the plague can be treated by advances in medicine (reason). Which period do you consider more bitter?
No man, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Deny god, and I'll give you a lollipop. Nothing bitter about that!
I consider you're attack on persons to be bitter. It is provoked by your belief system - it is what atheism produces in you. I run into very few exceptions. Your "joke" is exactly what I'm talking about. Any unbiased observer would look at that kind of thing and see it as unkind and unattractive.
I do not acknowledge that there is a conflict between faith and reason. I acknowledge that a false conflict between these two rages within you. It is a kind of spiritual insanity common to atheists.
The fact that you compare unicorns and tooth fairies to Christ shows how little you understand Christianity. Show me the hospitals, soup kitchens, well projects, innercity renewall movemets, civil rights crusades, etc. launched by unicorn and tooth fairy believers. Faith in Christ inspires good behavior. You cannot acknowledge this, but it is true.
Well there's your problem right there. There IS a conflict between faith and reason. No wonder you're confused. So if unicorn believers did some community service, you'd think there's some truth to their beliefs? Crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, colonialism. Faith in Christ also inspires bad behavior.
You're calling me spiritually insane? No lollipop for you.
Yes, I believe you have a kind of spiritual insanity, as you do about me. One of us (or perhaps both, if the Muslims are right) in not connected to reality.
Show me the unicorn believing community and their system of belief, let me assess their reasons for what they believe, and I'll get back with you about what I think about them. Ah, but of course, the unicorn believing community is not real. Either is this whole line of argument.
Faith in Christ also inspires and is used to justify all kinds of awful behavior. Why do you feel it is necessary to believe in things without evidence such as the divine nature of Christ and the Bible to do good works?
I don't think it's necessary to believe to do good works. I think it is necessary to believe in order to actually become good within. Or perhaps to conquer the evil within. Selflessness does not come easily to our race, and self-denial is considered aborant. It is, however, the way to real freedom - self denial and cross-walking. I don't believe anyone get's there without divine help.
"...self denial and cross-walking" - do I need a dominatrix for that?
No, I don't believe you have spiritual insanity - because there's no such thing as "spirit". As far as conquering "the evil within": Prozac works better than Jesus. Jesus may as well have been a unicorn - not much more illogical than the other things attributed to him/her.
You are sexualizing something that is not sexual. You used the word dominatrix to describe something that was not sexual, and now you do it again. Your behavior is sophomoric. Up to this point, you and I have been able to discuss. While we have radically different assumptions about the nature of the world, we've been able to look at those differences with something approaching civility. Frankly, this is beneath what little dignity you've displayed so far (and that's kind of saying a lot).
You are spiritualizing something that is not spiritual. You perhaps are making "radical assumptions", I make none, but demand evidence. If you think my oblique references to sexuality are sophomoric, your accusations of "spiritual insanity" are somewhere in the 3rd grade.
Spirituality can, in fact, be observed and studied. The transformation of the human person is a reality that results from spiritual interaction I have observed on countless occasions, and experienced myself. It can be studied historically. It can be studied in case study after case study. It can be studied sociologically. This is what I studied to obtain my doctorate. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Are you making yet another "radical assumption", that I have not studied theology? Is this spiritual phenomenon of which you speak something we can observe under controlled laboratory conditions? Please elaborate on the historical record and the "case studies". And I apologize if I've made you bitter with my sophomoric remarks.
No, I'm not bitter at all. Simply recognizing your right to be kind of childish. Perhaps you meant it in good fun, but it is a perfect example of the kind of mockery that you are doing here. It seemed to be an attempt to make me angry, but it only makes me sad for you and for how little respect you have for others.
No reason to be sad for me...don't waste your time. I can understand how you object to the mockery - but the fact is religious views deserve no more respect than belief in santa & unicorns - good deeds or no good deeds.
No offense is intended here either (an I write this with some fear that it will cause you or others to doubt the sinserity of my appologies), but do you see the difference between us that our two positions are producing. I'm treating you with respect, while you declair that I deserve no respect.
I am making no assumptions about how learned or ignorant you are of theology. Actually, you seem somewhat informed on one level, and completely vacuous on another.
Is a laboratory the only place where learning about truth can be accomplished? Tell me of your experiments for discovering how much you love others. Or about the nature of love itself? Can you dissect that? Surely you see how limited and shallow is this approach to truth. There is so much more to human experience than you are allowing, and in the human heart, we all know this. You are denying your nature.
If you are using "spirituality" to extrapolate the existence of god, jesus, and all the trimmings, yes - you need hard, detailed and falsifiable proof. As has been said before, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". As far as love, I've come to realize I don't need jesus in order to give or receive it. There is indeed much to human experience, and subscription to unfounded superstitions limits the scope of that experience.
After reading your comments, it's pretty clear that I have offended you with my use of the words "insane" and "sophomoric." No offense was intended with either of these. I am sorry for having offended you, and I really am trying hard not to do that.
The level of civility is a demonstration of who we are as persons. The person through which youare is the instrument you will use to experience life. If we cannot be good people, we cannot be truly alive. God helps us be alive by helping us be good. Not just behave well, but actually become good.
By "insane" I meant not in touch with true reality. If I am right, that's as good a description as any of your position. If I am wrong, of course that's not true. But I can see how it can be read pejoratively. That was not my goal, and I am sorry. Sophomoric was an expression of disdain, simply that. I could have better expressed my boundaries without offense. I am sorry for that too.
Probably should appologize for "childish" while I am at it. I'm not sure how else to describe someone sexualizing a relationship with divinity, but it probably won't be experienced well by you. If I could retract the comment, I would.
It's worth noting that people in the Western world came to the conclusion that all people are equal because of a Christian renewal movement. The founding fathers of America who wrote the documents the instituted this new world were writing from Christian perspectives.
Neither Judaism nor Christianity has substantial proofs that any of the events in the Bible actually happened. The founding fathers were not writing from Christian perspectives. They were in favor of religion being separated from the government and many of them were not actually Christian. I have never heard of this 'Christian renewal movement' that sparked the idea of equality. Even Martin Luther King Jr. didn't derive his ideas on peaceful resistance from the Bible, and he was Christian.
Christianity (like Judaism) is a faith based on reason because it is based on historical events. In the Christian concept, truth flows from historical fact rather than from speculation or subject experience. If these events happened, then this is true. There is a great deal of evidence that these thigns happened, therefore it is reasonable to believe this truth.
Spirituality is off topic? How does that work? Isn't this a video about a religion (with a couple of other faith perspectives thrown in there for the fun of it)? Seems to me that spirituality is the center of this thing. But it is your video, so maybe I've missed the point.
I will actually agree with you that ever since the Western world realized that all people are equal, Christianity has spread through peaceful (if somewhat misguided) efforts. But that was an interesting idea, how exactly is your faith based on reason? I never said spirituality was off topic, I said that spirtual experiences are subjective so you can pretty much dismiss anything I have to say on this topic as atheist propaganda.
Were there times when the Christian Empire acted in violence? Yes. Christian theology actually has an answer for that - it's fallen behavior. But is it the primary way that Christian faith spreads? No, it isn't. Most people I've seen become Christians do so because they choose to do so. I have helped a lot of people become Christians, but I've never held a gun to anyone's head.
Well, yes and no. Obviously, you lack faith, but Christian faith is reasonable faith based on reason. What you've got is a lot of misinformation, much of it advocated by atheist apostles.
Paul preached no such thing - not a new God to be added, but the son of the one true God. He denyed the existance of the pagan deities, and taught that the spiritual realities behind them were demonic. You do not understand Christianity. You know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to really understand it.
Alright, so the Paul thing was dumb, I apologize for that. The point was that Christian religion has been adapted to pagan beliefs (See: Christmas and Easter), and that the Romans, Crusaders, conquistadors, etc spread Christianity through fear and violence. That's why Christianity spans across cultures, not the noble reasons you ascribe to it so passionately.
However, we seem to have moved from facts into the realm of spirituality. It's pretty easy to write me off on this topic since an experience with god is entirely subjective. I could say that I was a Christian, and you would just say that lots of people say their Christians without having a relationship with god. We seem to have reached the point in the argument where you write off my entire viewpoint as a lack of faith.
Nope - you don't understand the cross at all. Not surprising, because it is deeply attached to a relationship with God, and is hard to understand from the outside looking in. Which is why early Christians said it was foolishness to others, but to us it is the wisdom of God.
You wouldn't advocate the way of the cross becuase you don't know it or understand it. You haven't really tried. You've simple gotten a grasp of some of the basic tenants, and then you've mocked it. If you understood the cross, you'd be in a different place.
Paul preached that Jesus was just a new god to add to the various deities of the pagans. The Romans did suppress Christianity; let's not forget the incident with the lions. Even then, it was just a slew of separate groups with a bunch of different names and beliefs before it was institutionalized. It was the Romans who made all the rules, made it an empire-spanning religion, and essentially brought Christianity into existence. In the end, the Romans invented and spread modern Christianity.
The only way I've ever heard of the way of the cross being a good thing is when it was interpreted to the point where it has virtually no meaning. It is basically completely pointless as a practice until you reach the point where you are helping other people out of love, and you can do that without Jesus. All of the other beliefs that go along with it may be comforting, but it would be the same effect if you put your faith in Zeus or Thor.
If it was barely a cult, why exactly was it made the official religion? But if there were large numbers, then it made political sense. No denying that becoming the official religion was not very helpful to genuine Christian faith, but why it would even happen in the first place is something of a problem to your thesis. Things that were barely cults were actually vigorusly suppressed by Romans - consider the Bachius cult.
Paul did nothing on his own. He traveled with a pretty big team, actually, and was supported by people who believed his message. Even most secular scholars believe that Paul was a real person, and that he did, in fact, spread Christianity to much of the Roman Empire. You can, of course, beleive whatever myth makes you most comfortable.
The Romans invinted Christinaty? O please! I thought you were informed. If you want to say that someone besides Jesus invinted this faith, then you'd have to say it was Paul, a Jew. You really need to check your facts. No offense intended, but you think Romans invinted this faith, your awareness of ancient history boarders on illiteracy.
Christianity was barely a cult before Rome made it the official religion! Or did Paul really make it all the way to the British Isles on his own? And a lot of those New Testament stories seem an awful lot like the pagan legends that were circling around the Roman Empire. If you really want to believe the New Testament account of how Christianity began you're welcome to it, but don't try to pass it off as historical fact.
I'm not trying to say that there is nothing in Christianity worth following (the Golden Rule, for example, is quite nice), but all of those beautiful things can be had without all the strings that Christianity comes with. Loving your enemies isn't isolated to Christianity; plenty of the Eastern religions teach non-violence and love for all living things. And I'm not sure following the way of the cross should be something that a 21st century society advocates.
Sacrificing yourself for the good of the community is a long ways away from loving your enemies and following the way of the cross. This is unique to Christianity. Becareful that in your attempt to make Christianity nothing special, you don't loose your target to mock. There are things about Christianity that are special, and not all of them are as disgusting as the things you hate. Some are quite beautiful.
Here's an iteresting reality - you live in a primarily Christian country, yet you are not forced with violence to believe anything - you can even blaspheme without danger. You can even have fun doing this. Are you sure you are accurately decribing the faith you hate so much?
Oh please, Christianity has been forced on most of the world, and if you want to say that the Romans were misrepresenting Christianity, then your religion has been screwed from day one. Jesus would have gone down in history as a neat guy, maybe, if it hadn't been for the Romans creating Christianity. They invented all the rituals, and most of the stories came from legends that were already in circulation in the nations they dominated.
Today, I would agree that Islam is probably a bigger threat to peace than Christianity, but the majority of both religions today are primarily non-violent. However, that's all after the fact; all of this peaceful stuff started after a lot of the ancestors of modern day Christians had already been converted, through fear and violence. Take Mexico, you can say that the original Mexicans believed Christianity, but don't try and tell me the conquistadors had nothing to do with it.
People who become Christians most often choose to be Christians because they are convinced that Christianity is true. Have faiths ever been forced on people? Sure. But you'll find that historically, Christianity does this less often than other faiths, and only when it looses its connection to its foundation. I think you are providing a more accurate description of Islam than of Christianity.
Oh I see. They taught you what they believed to be true. How oppressive of them. Your parents do not hold hell like a gun - they simply believe in it. Tell me, do you plan to raise your children to be Christians? Don't you hope they will become like you? But isn't that what your folks did? Will you opressively and with violence make your children to be atheists?
I am not making my parents out to be bad people. They had their beliefs because that's how they were raised, so they thought they were doing a good thing by raising me the same way, and disciplining me when I didn't conform. They simply never stopped to question their beliefs, as I did.
So its good people who make threats and force people to convert? You are confusing me. See the argument is that Christians convert people through oppression and violence. You joined that argument with your parents as an example. So these are not bad people, they simply force people to convert to a flase belief system through threats? How does that work?
Yes, they firmly believed in christianity, so they thought it a good thing to impress it upon me. The 9-11 attackers likewise thought they were doing a good thing, don't you agree?
I see. And teaching and terrorism are similar in your world view? Help me out - are you dead? Were you blown up by your parrents? Allow me to remind you of your orriginal argument - you were threatened by your parents who used hell to force you to be a Christian. Are you now saying that your parents are similar to the 9-11 attackers?
I would add that my ancestors were converted by the sword, else my parents would still be worshipping something other than jesus. As far as how I would raise my kids: I would not "oppressively and with violence" raise them to be atheists, I would simply remain silent on the issue of religion. Had my parents raised me that way, I would have always been an atheist.
You know this about your distant ancestors? So let me get this strait - all ancient conversion was under duress - no one has ever chosen to convert Christianity in history unless it was under threat. I'll even grant you hell is a threat -- but I will not grant you that it is the only reason that people become Christians. Jesus and his teachings are very attractive, and He inspires a lot of people to convert. So how do you know that your family was converted by the sword?
I was not at all implying that all christians were converted under threat - i openly acknowledge that much was done by peaceful missionaries. Specific to my instance, my ancestors encountered christianity on the receiving end of European colonialism.
Yep, European colonialism was pretty bad. Sorry that your ancestors were mistreated by Christians. Thank you for the acknowledgement that this was not the only kind of mission work done by Christians.
When I say there are unique Christian expressions in almost every culture, I mean that there are different forms of Christian faith in churches in every culture - not that every culture contains something that's kind of Christian, but that most cultures have actual Christians in them. The Christians of different cultures do not all look and act alike, because Christianity is a relgion that jumps cultures.
The reason Christianity jumps cultures is because it was forced upon people through violence and adapted to fit with the native beliefs. Sacrificing yourself for the good of the community is not unique to Christianity at all. In fact, I would say that most religions define love this way.
Saying that morality originates with evolution doesn't mean that people only help others because they know it will help them in the long run. It means this sense of right and wrong helped humans survive as a species, and so morality as a trait survived through natural selection.
Perhaps you are willing to put yourself absolutely last and care about the needs of others first, even your enemies who hate you and want to hurt you. This is the kind of love that Jesus says people who love him should have, and it is in fact unique to Christianity. No other faith calls people to life and love defined by Jesus cross. I find God's help to be necessary and real in loving people this way. I'm not always good at it, but without God's help, I don't think I ever would be.
It depends on how you define love. If you define love as being nice to people and doing no harm (because in evolutionary terms, it serves your best interests to do this -- which is a selfish motivation at its roots), then that's one thing. Honestly, that doesn't sound very moral to me. But love as God defines it is something very different. Maybe you are able to have a Christian kind of love for people without being a Christian, but I doubt it, because Christian love is hard.
As to religion and culture - the religion that you mock in your video is, in fact, not culture bound. The brilliance and unique nature of Christian faith is that it does, in fact, jump cultures. One does not have to become part of a specific culture in order to follow Jesus and embrace His way of life -- one simply has to follow Him. You will find unique and genuine expressions of Christian faith in many of the world's cultures on all of the world's continents.
The aspects of Christianity that you say are unique that are expressed in cultures that weren't dominated by the Romans or the Europeans are not actually unique to Christianity. Almost all cultures have followed some similiar moral rules, that's no reason to attribute them specifically to Christianity.
Many theists would say that love of God and fellow humans are linked - because I love God I love other people, and I cannot love God without love for other people. Often, theists care about unloveable people BECAUSE God loves them. The love of others motivated by and empowered by faith is one of the greater strengths of genuine Christianity.
That doesn't exactly sound very moral to me. The only reason Christians love their fellow human beings is because god loves them? Humans only have worth because of god? I don't see it as necessary to take anything on faith in order to love other humans.
Morality has nothing to do with religion? That is purely an atheist myth, and has no foundation in recorded history. The connection between genuine faith and superior morality is researchable fact. To suggest that religion has added nothing but bad stuff to our society is to ignore countless homeless shelters, soup kitchens, AIDS clinics and other health organizations, schools and so on -- all flowing from people who are motivated by religious conviction. Moral teaching does flow from religion.
The fact that throughout history more religious people have been behind moral movements than nonreligious people is only supporting the fact that most people throughout history have been religious. Anyways, god's plans have always been rather hard to read, and if those people would have preferred to go out and murder infidels they could've found justification for it.
Even theists who do good works are usually doing them out of love for their fellow humans instead of a duty to their 'creator'. True religious conviction often results in hatred and intolerance, and that is a historical fact. Morality is something relative to humanity, but religion is something that is relative to the culture you happen to belong to. Morality may impact religion, but not the other way around, unless it pertains to a new excuse to discriminate against each other.
Factual information? And yet the bible depicts you atheists to a Tee, obviously you're blinded by what the world says about God. I've never understood how people can just assume that there's no God but not try to find the real answer. you're not even smart enough to know that your poor poor little video has nothing at all to do with blasphemy. The whole blasphemy challenge needs to pitch in for a new education. God knows your ignorance is abundant, he obviously has patience with it.
chica0616 6 months ago
What's your opinion on the afrerlife?
jonl34 1 year ago
Dam cuttie glad to see your a logical thinker
jonl34 1 year ago
Be careful at the zebra crossings.
just2w4tch 2 years ago
interesting. I always wondered about the babel fish argument. So a real being ceases to exist because of an argument? No, not likely. What is, is. This is a classic "straw man" argument. It is very funny though.
BTW, what is the point of your "blasphemy"? What do you achieve? How does it benefit you?
I hope and pray you hear His voice one day. bless you :)
MarkHolgate 3 years ago
they sent me a free DVD
SkyWierdo 3 years ago
And a great DVD it is.. did my challenge, got my DVD :)
jesterspace 2 years ago
Hey Kristen, this is Bryan from back in America, after two years on YouTube I can't believe it took me this long to come across your videos.
I must say that this was very well put together, this video is very professional. 5 stars.
PhantomBPR 4 years ago
...I'm 17, and I'm glad you've resorted to attacking my age. Pretty easy to discredit someone by saying, "Oh, you're young, you don't know anything," isn't it?
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
How old are you...13? Yes, I'm sure you have all the answers. You can't even drive, and yet you have all the answers. Get out into the world before making such a decision.
And how much of a "Radical Atheist" can you be at 13? Does your mom drive you to the protest sites?
DollyHot 4 years ago
Yep, people who believe in gods or metaphysics are fucking dumshits.
----RADICAL ATHEIST MOTHAFUCKAS!
shitfite 4 years ago
umm what does metaphysics have to do with anything. I rather like metaphysics. I can be a proud athiest and support new science. sheesh
MCrushala 3 years ago
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-
he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
SonOfMan2 4 years ago
If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill .
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.
Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!"
SonOfMan2 4 years ago
Psalm 137
By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars we hung our harps,for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" How can we sing the songs of the LORD while in a foreign land?
SonOfMan2 4 years ago
Who is this that speaks words with out knowledge!! Education is the antidote to stupid!! Don't just hold the books up, you need to read them!! about like a 2 year old trying to rationalize quantum physics.
buckbeak1965 4 years ago
um, your knowledge told you she hasn't read the books? where does this knowledge come from? did you read it in a prophesy pamphlet?
abcbakerbaker 3 years ago
Her knowledge told me she has not read it, as soon as she opened her mouth.. As it did with you! ;-)
buckbeak1965 3 years ago
The content is fine and you probably got this already - try to focus the light on the object instead of the camera. A good video nevertheless. Cheers
englishtamil 4 years ago
Great job. 5 stars.
sacani642 4 years ago
Blah blah blah, telesniper... try explaining then why you don't believe in the other gods from history. Complete fallacy. You can't argue for your god and deny others without coming off as a hypocrite.
JohnBach 4 years ago
Fantastic video! :) I love hitchhikers guide :) 5 stars and subscribed. :) (who'd want to waste 11 solid years of sundays going to church)
JohnBach 4 years ago
It amuses me how many people will patronize me rather than come up with some decent arguments. I don't have to disprove anything, you have to prove it. Show me there's something that can in fact transcend the constraints of the universe and I'll consider your position.
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
Haha, you obviously don't understand the concepts of rationality and scientific method. The existence of god is outside the realm of science because it can't be tested empirically. Therefore the only thing that we have left is our own logic to determine the existence of god. It is about as rationally sound to accept the existence of god as it is to deny it.
chemicalDan88 4 years ago
usually if something can't be tested empirically, it doesn't exist.
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
you can't empirically test whats at the center of the earth, does that mean the center of the earth doesn't exist ?
chemicalDan88 4 years ago
...what? Sorry, I think I'm confused, what exactly do you consider empirical?
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
It means you can test it using your senses ie. digging to the center of the earth (which isn't possible yet) and looking with your eyes to see what is actually there.
chemicalDan88 4 years ago
oh, I see. Well, in that case I would have to disagree that science is limited to the empirically tested. You can certainly detect the center of the earth with instruments other than human senses. I thought you meant what could be detected through any means.
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
Good video - let the redneck bible-banging retards hear the truth for once.
Yeah, I found jesus. He was behind the couch the whole time.
JGL53 4 years ago
theirs nothing better than trying to get all you atheists on here to convert to a christian
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
lol
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
one of the best responses! awesome job!
AndrewJCar 4 years ago
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
Don't you have anything better to do?
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
But, brothers, when we were torn away from you for a short time (in person, not in thought), out of our intense longing we made every effort to see you. encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
You have wearied the LORD with your words. "How have we wearied him?" you ask. By saying, "All who do evil are good in the eyes of the LORD, and he is pleased with them" or "Where is the God of justice?"Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you, and your destruction of animals will terrify you. For you have shed man's blood; you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them. I struck all the work of your hands with blight, mildew and hail, yet you did not turn to me,' declares the LORD.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.
Let the priests, who minister before the LORD, weep between the temple porch and the altar. Let them say, "Spare your people, O LORD. Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?' "
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
The LORD has done what he planned; he has fulfilled his word, which he decreed long ago. He has overthrown you without pity, he has let the enemy gloat over you, he has exalted the horn [d] of your foes. Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah.
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
Have you not brought this on yourselves by forsaking the LORD your God when he led you in the way?
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, turn, my lover, and be like a gazelle or like a young stag on the rugged hills. [c]
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
Now the king was attracted to Esther more than to any of the other women, and she won his favor and approval more than any of the other virgins. So he set a royal crown on her head and made her queen instead of Vashti. who has left the partner of her youth and ignored the covenant she made before God. [a
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600. of Bezai 323 Then I said to them, "You see the trouble we are in: Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, and we will no longer be in disgrace."
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
But they persisted until he was too ashamed to refuse. So he said, "Send them." And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. Abigail was the mother of Amasa, whose father was Jether the Ishmaelite. Caleb Son of Hezron
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
This sin of the young men was very great in the LORD's sight, for they [d] were treating the LORD's offering with contempt. The battle that day was very fierce, and Abner and the men of Israel were defeated by David's men. So he continued, "Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife."
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. Unlike their fathers, they quickly turned from the way in which their fathers had walked, the way of obedience to the LORD's commands. So Ruth gleaned in the field until evening. Then she threshed the barley she had gathered, and it amounted to about an ephah. [a]
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
Some shepherds came along and drove them away, but Moses got up and came to their rescue and watered their flock. Then the Tent of Meeting and the camp of the Levites will set out in the middle of the camps. They will set out in the same order as they encamp, each in his own place under his standard.
the LORD said to me, The men said to her, "This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
S0n0fMan 4 years ago
good to know.
SkyWierdo 4 years ago
Part 3. I would not deny the existence of 'The Holy Spirit', I don't know what it means, but I could quite happily deny the existence of the supernatural. Would that be good enough for you?
boblhsax 4 years ago
Part 2. So much of The Bible and of Christ's teachings are allegorical and whilst I think it's fine to be 'a radical atheist' it may be arrogant to turn ones back on the teachings: The Sermon on The Mount for example - the best example in fact - would serve any atheist seeking to construct a set of radical values by which to live, but you have to read between the lines
boblhsax 4 years ago
Part 1. I put it to you that you can be christian/A Christian and, at the same time, quite openly, be an atheist; and, that it is quite acceptable to suppose that Jesus Christ was an atheist. To say that The Bible is unreliable is simplistic. It is a fantastic cocktail of history, mythology and philosophy. And who says that it is the written word of God? It doesn't make that claim for itself.
boblhsax 4 years ago
awesome video. =)
Poseidon678 4 years ago
The Bible is one of the most reliable historical documents we have in the West. Nothing the Bible purports to have occurred has ever been disproven. In fact, the contrary occurs every year or so among our archaeological and historical communities. Your assaults on religion are a classic example of the wikipedia-schooled arrogance of our generation.
illuminatitv 4 years ago
Actually, a book on Myths & Legends is very reliable - explains where those other two books have their origin.
Pick any myth. I go for the Great Green Arkleseizure, meself. CD
cdavis9999 5 years ago
Great job "skywierdo"
Thank you for the video. I'm sure some theists will watch your video and want to say you are wrong. But, there will be this little part of their rational minds that says, "what if she is right?". Why is the Bible full of torture, rape, child killing, genocide, etc? Some of them will wake up and realize there is no god.
lilgreendude 5 years ago
You opened with how unreliable the Bible is. Actually archeologists use the Bible to determine where to do countless numbers of studies. The scriptures of the Bible are in fact so reliable that the Smithsonian Institute's most prized possessions would never have been found if they had not first been found in the Bible, which told them where they still were. Do you have any idea what you are capable of WITH God?
minksseattle 5 years ago
errr... they used the Iliad to help them find Troy, too. Geographical accuracy has nothing to do with historical validity. WITH god? So when's the last time you moved a mountain, mustardseed?
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
errr...i listened to the video. did you? what was said was that the bible is about as reliable as "Myths & Legends". When's the last time a myth did anything tangible? cool your jets there, scooter.
minksseattle 5 years ago
errr...i listened to the video. did you? what was said was that the bible is about as reliable as "Myths & Legends". When's the last time a myth did anything tangible? cool your jets there, scooter.
minksseattle 5 years ago
oh, and i've seen far more than mountains moved with the faith of a mustardseed. i've seen hearts like yours transformed thousands of times. caution... you may be closer to an awakening than you know.
minksseattle 5 years ago
Right, of course, the Iliad is an accurate historical document. Sorry, I forgot. I go through awakenings all the time. You learn new information, you use it to change your worldview. It's called growing. Unfortunately, the awakening you're talking about would be a step backwards in my case.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
This video was well put together and it was really mature, and respectable (I am a christian but I'm really liberal and respect all views) until you called Jesus a masochist. It was unfounded and childish and it really discredited you.
citrusnation 5 years ago
meh, I do what I can.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
By the way, Skyweirdo is one of the few pleasent atheists with whom I've ever diolgued. Her video takes a very unkind smack at Jesus, and that's pretty typical, but I found her to be reasonablly nice when engaged in diologue. Most launch very quickly into profanity and personal attacks. She didn't. Just to give credit where it's due.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Masochistic psychopath.. Hilarious!
paisano1999 5 years ago
punnet2 has pointed out to me that we are kind of taking over SkyWeirdo's video page. Sorry bout that SkyWeirdo - I'm kind of new to YouTube, and I guess I don't really know the etiquette. My bad. I'm out. May you have peace.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
eh, I'm fine with it. I'm done arguing with you for a while, but if punnet2's got some decent discussion to add then I'm all for donating my page for it... oh, and it's SkyWierdo, the mispelling is on purpose.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Sorry. I'm dyslexic, and I use spell check - I never trust my own spelling. My bad.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Sorry. Sorry. Gotta stop this. Just very hard to walk away. But you can have the last word, I promise.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I was kinda thinking the same thing. Yeah, so I'm done, too. Fun while it lasted, but we're past the point where we're actually learning anything from each other. Goodbye, then.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Define "impossible event"? If you said three hundred years ago - I will fly across the ocean, that would be an impossible event. Fifty years ago, this midium of communication we are using would have been fiction. A thing that never happened before could never happen? Who deciedes what's possible? How could we ever know what is possible and what is not.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Look, a part of me really enjoys this, but I really should stop. You are unlikely to convince me that the experiences I've had with God are false, or that my faith is false. I think I'm unlikely to convince you of anything either. Perhaps if we could sit as real people and have a cup of tea or something, but this medium is more about scoring points than sharing our hearts or lives.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
As to the historicity of the Bible, you have the same problem with it that you have with every historical document. Did Pontious Pilate exist? How do you give an answer to that? Was there ever a Julius Caeser? Any document that claims to be historical cannot be proven to anyone who did not actually observe the event. All must be taken on "faith",
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Usually, if a historical document talks about impossible events, the source cannot be accepted as fact. Take the Iliad and the Odyssey, for example. Also, when a book contradicts itself as much as the Bible, it can't really be taken seriously. Dr. King got most of his pacifistic ideas from Gandhi, despite him being able to find some convenient quotes in the Bible.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Martin Luther King didn't get his stuff from the Bible? How does this grab you: ". . . we will not be satisfied until 'justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream.'" The Hebrew prophets are full of social justice stuff, and Dr. King is a great example of that stream of thought. How about this: "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other also." Dr. King's ideas of peaceful resistance come from the mouth of the very man you mock - Jesus Christ.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Sigh....no, they came from Gandhi - who was not a christian.
punnet2 5 years ago
Sigh . . . no, they came from Martain Luther King Jr. He was, perhaps, influenced by Gandhi. But King was a Christian minister. He embraced truth wherever he found it. Gandhi had truth that did not contradict Christ, and in fact squared with what Christ taught. But of course you can believe what ever you want to believe.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Please provide an example of jesus demonstrating peaceful resistance, on the order of either India's independence, or the Civil Rights movement.
punnet2 5 years ago
How about the cross - the ultimate peaceful resistance. He did what he taught, and for those who understand the cross, it teaches peaceful resistance to evil. You don't get it, but that doesn't mean that MLK Jr. didn't. He was a Christian minister. He got it. He saw in Gandhi what actually living it could do.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Compared to independence or civil rights, I'm not sure what crucifixion accomplished, other than a torn curtain in the temple. I also have to wonder if MLK would have been a christian if not for the slave trade.
Gandhi, for his part, is known to have asked why christians are so unlike their christ.
punnet2 5 years ago
Yes, there is room for Gandhi's criticism. Christians, being broken people, are not as successful as Jesus at being truly good people. What does atheism make of people? Bitterness seems to be the most common recurring theme.
The fact that you do not understand the cross does not reduce it's power. I am freed by it, and made a much better person with it than I would be with out it. You don't get it, but that doesn't mean that no one does.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Where are you getting bitter from? My bitterness quotient dropped the day I stopped attending church. There's nothing bitter about realizing you don't have to kow-tow to some jealous old man in the sky.
Inasmuch as there are thousands of christian denominations in operation, it would appear that noone understands the cross. Maybe you should try understanding kaaba stone, or the mandala, or the yinyang...or maybe just the theory of evolution.
punnet2 5 years ago
Sure, NOBODY has ever understood crosslife. No one. Bonhoffer of Germany, Francis of Assisi, Patrick of Ireland, Martain Luther King Jr., Wilberforce, Teresa of Calcutta, Pascal of France, C.S. Lewis, John of the Cross, Thomas A'Kempis, A.W. Tozer - all these nobodies. I'm greatful to be among them. See 1 Cor. 1:25-31.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Bonhoeffer: Lutheran
MLK: Baptist
FrancisPatrickWilberforceTeresaJOTCaKempis: Catholic
Pascal: Jansenist heretic
C.S. Lewis: Anglican
Tozer: Evangelical
Yep. One cross fits all.
Thanks for the quote, but I already knew that god was "foolish" and "weak".
punnet2 5 years ago
Yes, one cross for all the world. Perhaps you begin to understand true Christianity.
Oh, and my brother Wilberforce was Anglican.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
As to bitterness - is not the whole Blasphemy Challenege an exploration of the bitterness of the human heart? Believe what ever you want to believe - why attack the belief life of others. The BC is nothing but an attack on Christians and their faith - simple as that. Bitter.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Attack on Christians? No.
Attack on their faith? Yes.
If grown adults believed in unicorns and tooth fairies, would it show bitterness on our part that we seek to dissuade them? What is bitter about letting go of delusions and embracing reality?
If anyone is being conditioned for a life of bitterness, it would be the kids at jesus camp.
punnet2 5 years ago
Now you attack Unicornians? Ha. joke.
Thing is, you cannot attack a person's faith and not attack that person. If I attack your ability to reason, I attack you, yes? The equivalent of reason in you is faith in most of the rest of the world. It is at the center of a person's identity. And why do you do it? It makes others feel bad. This is making the world better? It is bitter.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I certainly do understand true xianity - a myth open to thousands of interpretations - without even enough continuity to prevent internecine warfare. Brother Willy, or brother Sammy was an anglican? Sure, but sons Robbie and Henry switched sides to the vatican.
punnet2 5 years ago
I'm glad you acknowledge that it's faith vs. reason. On the basis of faith, unicorns are as real as jesus. (Ha. No joke.) Compare the Dark Ages, where the Black Death was considered a punishment by god (faith), to today, where the plague can be treated by advances in medicine (reason). Which period do you consider more bitter?
No man, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Deny god, and I'll give you a lollipop. Nothing bitter about that!
punnet2 5 years ago
I consider you're attack on persons to be bitter. It is provoked by your belief system - it is what atheism produces in you. I run into very few exceptions. Your "joke" is exactly what I'm talking about. Any unbiased observer would look at that kind of thing and see it as unkind and unattractive.
I do not acknowledge that there is a conflict between faith and reason. I acknowledge that a false conflict between these two rages within you. It is a kind of spiritual insanity common to atheists.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
The fact that you compare unicorns and tooth fairies to Christ shows how little you understand Christianity. Show me the hospitals, soup kitchens, well projects, innercity renewall movemets, civil rights crusades, etc. launched by unicorn and tooth fairy believers. Faith in Christ inspires good behavior. You cannot acknowledge this, but it is true.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Well there's your problem right there. There IS a conflict between faith and reason. No wonder you're confused. So if unicorn believers did some community service, you'd think there's some truth to their beliefs? Crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, colonialism. Faith in Christ also inspires bad behavior.
You're calling me spiritually insane? No lollipop for you.
punnet2 5 years ago
Yes, I believe you have a kind of spiritual insanity, as you do about me. One of us (or perhaps both, if the Muslims are right) in not connected to reality.
Show me the unicorn believing community and their system of belief, let me assess their reasons for what they believe, and I'll get back with you about what I think about them. Ah, but of course, the unicorn believing community is not real. Either is this whole line of argument.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Faith in Christ also inspires and is used to justify all kinds of awful behavior. Why do you feel it is necessary to believe in things without evidence such as the divine nature of Christ and the Bible to do good works?
drmad66 5 years ago
I don't think it's necessary to believe to do good works. I think it is necessary to believe in order to actually become good within. Or perhaps to conquer the evil within. Selflessness does not come easily to our race, and self-denial is considered aborant. It is, however, the way to real freedom - self denial and cross-walking. I don't believe anyone get's there without divine help.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
"...self denial and cross-walking" - do I need a dominatrix for that?
No, I don't believe you have spiritual insanity - because there's no such thing as "spirit". As far as conquering "the evil within": Prozac works better than Jesus. Jesus may as well have been a unicorn - not much more illogical than the other things attributed to him/her.
punnet2 5 years ago
To deny our spiritual nature is insane. It's like denying we have personality types.
Not a dominatrix. A Lord and master.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Insane to deny something that can't be empirically observed? Got it.
A Lord and master? I don't swing that way, but all props if you do. Just cross out that line in Leviticus before you start...
punnet2 5 years ago
You are sexualizing something that is not sexual. You used the word dominatrix to describe something that was not sexual, and now you do it again. Your behavior is sophomoric. Up to this point, you and I have been able to discuss. While we have radically different assumptions about the nature of the world, we've been able to look at those differences with something approaching civility. Frankly, this is beneath what little dignity you've displayed so far (and that's kind of saying a lot).
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
You are spiritualizing something that is not spiritual. You perhaps are making "radical assumptions", I make none, but demand evidence. If you think my oblique references to sexuality are sophomoric, your accusations of "spiritual insanity" are somewhere in the 3rd grade.
punnet2 5 years ago
Spirituality can, in fact, be observed and studied. The transformation of the human person is a reality that results from spiritual interaction I have observed on countless occasions, and experienced myself. It can be studied historically. It can be studied in case study after case study. It can be studied sociologically. This is what I studied to obtain my doctorate. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Are you making yet another "radical assumption", that I have not studied theology? Is this spiritual phenomenon of which you speak something we can observe under controlled laboratory conditions? Please elaborate on the historical record and the "case studies". And I apologize if I've made you bitter with my sophomoric remarks.
punnet2 5 years ago
No, I'm not bitter at all. Simply recognizing your right to be kind of childish. Perhaps you meant it in good fun, but it is a perfect example of the kind of mockery that you are doing here. It seemed to be an attempt to make me angry, but it only makes me sad for you and for how little respect you have for others.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
No reason to be sad for me...don't waste your time. I can understand how you object to the mockery - but the fact is religious views deserve no more respect than belief in santa & unicorns - good deeds or no good deeds.
punnet2 5 years ago
No offense is intended here either (an I write this with some fear that it will cause you or others to doubt the sinserity of my appologies), but do you see the difference between us that our two positions are producing. I'm treating you with respect, while you declair that I deserve no respect.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I am making no assumptions about how learned or ignorant you are of theology. Actually, you seem somewhat informed on one level, and completely vacuous on another.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Is a laboratory the only place where learning about truth can be accomplished? Tell me of your experiments for discovering how much you love others. Or about the nature of love itself? Can you dissect that? Surely you see how limited and shallow is this approach to truth. There is so much more to human experience than you are allowing, and in the human heart, we all know this. You are denying your nature.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
If you are using "spirituality" to extrapolate the existence of god, jesus, and all the trimmings, yes - you need hard, detailed and falsifiable proof. As has been said before, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". As far as love, I've come to realize I don't need jesus in order to give or receive it. There is indeed much to human experience, and subscription to unfounded superstitions limits the scope of that experience.
punnet2 5 years ago
After reading your comments, it's pretty clear that I have offended you with my use of the words "insane" and "sophomoric." No offense was intended with either of these. I am sorry for having offended you, and I really am trying hard not to do that.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Not at all offended. Say whatever you have to say. It's a discussion, and hopefully we achieve an understanding, regardless of the level of civility.
punnet2 5 years ago
The level of civility is a demonstration of who we are as persons. The person through which youare is the instrument you will use to experience life. If we cannot be good people, we cannot be truly alive. God helps us be alive by helping us be good. Not just behave well, but actually become good.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
By "insane" I meant not in touch with true reality. If I am right, that's as good a description as any of your position. If I am wrong, of course that's not true. But I can see how it can be read pejoratively. That was not my goal, and I am sorry. Sophomoric was an expression of disdain, simply that. I could have better expressed my boundaries without offense. I am sorry for that too.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Probably should appologize for "childish" while I am at it. I'm not sure how else to describe someone sexualizing a relationship with divinity, but it probably won't be experienced well by you. If I could retract the comment, I would.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
It's worth noting that people in the Western world came to the conclusion that all people are equal because of a Christian renewal movement. The founding fathers of America who wrote the documents the instituted this new world were writing from Christian perspectives.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Neither Judaism nor Christianity has substantial proofs that any of the events in the Bible actually happened. The founding fathers were not writing from Christian perspectives. They were in favor of religion being separated from the government and many of them were not actually Christian. I have never heard of this 'Christian renewal movement' that sparked the idea of equality. Even Martin Luther King Jr. didn't derive his ideas on peaceful resistance from the Bible, and he was Christian.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Christianity (like Judaism) is a faith based on reason because it is based on historical events. In the Christian concept, truth flows from historical fact rather than from speculation or subject experience. If these events happened, then this is true. There is a great deal of evidence that these thigns happened, therefore it is reasonable to believe this truth.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
And how is Islam not the same way?
punnet2 5 years ago
Spirituality is off topic? How does that work? Isn't this a video about a religion (with a couple of other faith perspectives thrown in there for the fun of it)? Seems to me that spirituality is the center of this thing. But it is your video, so maybe I've missed the point.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I will actually agree with you that ever since the Western world realized that all people are equal, Christianity has spread through peaceful (if somewhat misguided) efforts. But that was an interesting idea, how exactly is your faith based on reason? I never said spirituality was off topic, I said that spirtual experiences are subjective so you can pretty much dismiss anything I have to say on this topic as atheist propaganda.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Were there times when the Christian Empire acted in violence? Yes. Christian theology actually has an answer for that - it's fallen behavior. But is it the primary way that Christian faith spreads? No, it isn't. Most people I've seen become Christians do so because they choose to do so. I have helped a lot of people become Christians, but I've never held a gun to anyone's head.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Well, yes and no. Obviously, you lack faith, but Christian faith is reasonable faith based on reason. What you've got is a lot of misinformation, much of it advocated by atheist apostles.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Paul preached no such thing - not a new God to be added, but the son of the one true God. He denyed the existance of the pagan deities, and taught that the spiritual realities behind them were demonic. You do not understand Christianity. You know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to really understand it.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Alright, so the Paul thing was dumb, I apologize for that. The point was that Christian religion has been adapted to pagan beliefs (See: Christmas and Easter), and that the Romans, Crusaders, conquistadors, etc spread Christianity through fear and violence. That's why Christianity spans across cultures, not the noble reasons you ascribe to it so passionately.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
However, we seem to have moved from facts into the realm of spirituality. It's pretty easy to write me off on this topic since an experience with god is entirely subjective. I could say that I was a Christian, and you would just say that lots of people say their Christians without having a relationship with god. We seem to have reached the point in the argument where you write off my entire viewpoint as a lack of faith.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Nope - you don't understand the cross at all. Not surprising, because it is deeply attached to a relationship with God, and is hard to understand from the outside looking in. Which is why early Christians said it was foolishness to others, but to us it is the wisdom of God.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
You wouldn't advocate the way of the cross becuase you don't know it or understand it. You haven't really tried. You've simple gotten a grasp of some of the basic tenants, and then you've mocked it. If you understood the cross, you'd be in a different place.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Paul preached that Jesus was just a new god to add to the various deities of the pagans. The Romans did suppress Christianity; let's not forget the incident with the lions. Even then, it was just a slew of separate groups with a bunch of different names and beliefs before it was institutionalized. It was the Romans who made all the rules, made it an empire-spanning religion, and essentially brought Christianity into existence. In the end, the Romans invented and spread modern Christianity.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
The only way I've ever heard of the way of the cross being a good thing is when it was interpreted to the point where it has virtually no meaning. It is basically completely pointless as a practice until you reach the point where you are helping other people out of love, and you can do that without Jesus. All of the other beliefs that go along with it may be comforting, but it would be the same effect if you put your faith in Zeus or Thor.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
If it was barely a cult, why exactly was it made the official religion? But if there were large numbers, then it made political sense. No denying that becoming the official religion was not very helpful to genuine Christian faith, but why it would even happen in the first place is something of a problem to your thesis. Things that were barely cults were actually vigorusly suppressed by Romans - consider the Bachius cult.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Paul did nothing on his own. He traveled with a pretty big team, actually, and was supported by people who believed his message. Even most secular scholars believe that Paul was a real person, and that he did, in fact, spread Christianity to much of the Roman Empire. You can, of course, beleive whatever myth makes you most comfortable.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
The Romans invinted Christinaty? O please! I thought you were informed. If you want to say that someone besides Jesus invinted this faith, then you'd have to say it was Paul, a Jew. You really need to check your facts. No offense intended, but you think Romans invinted this faith, your awareness of ancient history boarders on illiteracy.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Christianity was barely a cult before Rome made it the official religion! Or did Paul really make it all the way to the British Isles on his own? And a lot of those New Testament stories seem an awful lot like the pagan legends that were circling around the Roman Empire. If you really want to believe the New Testament account of how Christianity began you're welcome to it, but don't try to pass it off as historical fact.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
I'm not trying to say that there is nothing in Christianity worth following (the Golden Rule, for example, is quite nice), but all of those beautiful things can be had without all the strings that Christianity comes with. Loving your enemies isn't isolated to Christianity; plenty of the Eastern religions teach non-violence and love for all living things. And I'm not sure following the way of the cross should be something that a 21st century society advocates.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Sacrificing yourself for the good of the community is a long ways away from loving your enemies and following the way of the cross. This is unique to Christianity. Becareful that in your attempt to make Christianity nothing special, you don't loose your target to mock. There are things about Christianity that are special, and not all of them are as disgusting as the things you hate. Some are quite beautiful.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Here's an iteresting reality - you live in a primarily Christian country, yet you are not forced with violence to believe anything - you can even blaspheme without danger. You can even have fun doing this. Are you sure you are accurately decribing the faith you hate so much?
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Oh please, Christianity has been forced on most of the world, and if you want to say that the Romans were misrepresenting Christianity, then your religion has been screwed from day one. Jesus would have gone down in history as a neat guy, maybe, if it hadn't been for the Romans creating Christianity. They invented all the rituals, and most of the stories came from legends that were already in circulation in the nations they dominated.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Today, I would agree that Islam is probably a bigger threat to peace than Christianity, but the majority of both religions today are primarily non-violent. However, that's all after the fact; all of this peaceful stuff started after a lot of the ancestors of modern day Christians had already been converted, through fear and violence. Take Mexico, you can say that the original Mexicans believed Christianity, but don't try and tell me the conquistadors had nothing to do with it.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
People who become Christians most often choose to be Christians because they are convinced that Christianity is true. Have faiths ever been forced on people? Sure. But you'll find that historically, Christianity does this less often than other faiths, and only when it looses its connection to its foundation. I think you are providing a more accurate description of Islam than of Christianity.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I would have to disagree. Given the actual choice, I would never have become christian. My parents forced me to, and that was that.
punnet2 5 years ago
Right. They threatened you with a sword, did they?
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
No, they threatened me with hell, which if I understand corrrectly, is worse?
punnet2 5 years ago
Oh I see. They taught you what they believed to be true. How oppressive of them. Your parents do not hold hell like a gun - they simply believe in it. Tell me, do you plan to raise your children to be Christians? Don't you hope they will become like you? But isn't that what your folks did? Will you opressively and with violence make your children to be atheists?
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I am not making my parents out to be bad people. They had their beliefs because that's how they were raised, so they thought they were doing a good thing by raising me the same way, and disciplining me when I didn't conform. They simply never stopped to question their beliefs, as I did.
punnet2 5 years ago
So its good people who make threats and force people to convert? You are confusing me. See the argument is that Christians convert people through oppression and violence. You joined that argument with your parents as an example. So these are not bad people, they simply force people to convert to a flase belief system through threats? How does that work?
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
Yes, they firmly believed in christianity, so they thought it a good thing to impress it upon me. The 9-11 attackers likewise thought they were doing a good thing, don't you agree?
punnet2 5 years ago
I see. And teaching and terrorism are similar in your world view? Help me out - are you dead? Were you blown up by your parrents? Allow me to remind you of your orriginal argument - you were threatened by your parents who used hell to force you to be a Christian. Are you now saying that your parents are similar to the 9-11 attackers?
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I would add that my ancestors were converted by the sword, else my parents would still be worshipping something other than jesus. As far as how I would raise my kids: I would not "oppressively and with violence" raise them to be atheists, I would simply remain silent on the issue of religion. Had my parents raised me that way, I would have always been an atheist.
punnet2 5 years ago
You know this about your distant ancestors? So let me get this strait - all ancient conversion was under duress - no one has ever chosen to convert Christianity in history unless it was under threat. I'll even grant you hell is a threat -- but I will not grant you that it is the only reason that people become Christians. Jesus and his teachings are very attractive, and He inspires a lot of people to convert. So how do you know that your family was converted by the sword?
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
I was not at all implying that all christians were converted under threat - i openly acknowledge that much was done by peaceful missionaries. Specific to my instance, my ancestors encountered christianity on the receiving end of European colonialism.
punnet2 5 years ago
Yep, European colonialism was pretty bad. Sorry that your ancestors were mistreated by Christians. Thank you for the acknowledgement that this was not the only kind of mission work done by Christians.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
When I say there are unique Christian expressions in almost every culture, I mean that there are different forms of Christian faith in churches in every culture - not that every culture contains something that's kind of Christian, but that most cultures have actual Christians in them. The Christians of different cultures do not all look and act alike, because Christianity is a relgion that jumps cultures.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
The reason Christianity jumps cultures is because it was forced upon people through violence and adapted to fit with the native beliefs. Sacrificing yourself for the good of the community is not unique to Christianity at all. In fact, I would say that most religions define love this way.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Saying that morality originates with evolution doesn't mean that people only help others because they know it will help them in the long run. It means this sense of right and wrong helped humans survive as a species, and so morality as a trait survived through natural selection.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Perhaps you are willing to put yourself absolutely last and care about the needs of others first, even your enemies who hate you and want to hurt you. This is the kind of love that Jesus says people who love him should have, and it is in fact unique to Christianity. No other faith calls people to life and love defined by Jesus cross. I find God's help to be necessary and real in loving people this way. I'm not always good at it, but without God's help, I don't think I ever would be.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
It depends on how you define love. If you define love as being nice to people and doing no harm (because in evolutionary terms, it serves your best interests to do this -- which is a selfish motivation at its roots), then that's one thing. Honestly, that doesn't sound very moral to me. But love as God defines it is something very different. Maybe you are able to have a Christian kind of love for people without being a Christian, but I doubt it, because Christian love is hard.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
As to religion and culture - the religion that you mock in your video is, in fact, not culture bound. The brilliance and unique nature of Christian faith is that it does, in fact, jump cultures. One does not have to become part of a specific culture in order to follow Jesus and embrace His way of life -- one simply has to follow Him. You will find unique and genuine expressions of Christian faith in many of the world's cultures on all of the world's continents.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
The aspects of Christianity that you say are unique that are expressed in cultures that weren't dominated by the Romans or the Europeans are not actually unique to Christianity. Almost all cultures have followed some similiar moral rules, that's no reason to attribute them specifically to Christianity.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Many theists would say that love of God and fellow humans are linked - because I love God I love other people, and I cannot love God without love for other people. Often, theists care about unloveable people BECAUSE God loves them. The love of others motivated by and empowered by faith is one of the greater strengths of genuine Christianity.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
That doesn't exactly sound very moral to me. The only reason Christians love their fellow human beings is because god loves them? Humans only have worth because of god? I don't see it as necessary to take anything on faith in order to love other humans.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Morality has nothing to do with religion? That is purely an atheist myth, and has no foundation in recorded history. The connection between genuine faith and superior morality is researchable fact. To suggest that religion has added nothing but bad stuff to our society is to ignore countless homeless shelters, soup kitchens, AIDS clinics and other health organizations, schools and so on -- all flowing from people who are motivated by religious conviction. Moral teaching does flow from religion.
TheEmanBrown 5 years ago
The fact that throughout history more religious people have been behind moral movements than nonreligious people is only supporting the fact that most people throughout history have been religious. Anyways, god's plans have always been rather hard to read, and if those people would have preferred to go out and murder infidels they could've found justification for it.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Even theists who do good works are usually doing them out of love for their fellow humans instead of a duty to their 'creator'. True religious conviction often results in hatred and intolerance, and that is a historical fact. Morality is something relative to humanity, but religion is something that is relative to the culture you happen to belong to. Morality may impact religion, but not the other way around, unless it pertains to a new excuse to discriminate against each other.
SkyWierdo 5 years ago
Fantastic video!!! That girl is so young and very intelligent!!! BRAVO.
D4VERD4NN 5 years ago
this is so good. the music, the cut off, the sarcasm, everything. A+++
dxmkrew 5 years ago