I agree with pretty much everything you say. One thing though, when you say a katakana word you are saying it with English pronunciation. A Japanese person will not understand this and it is not Japanese. These words may have come from English, but they are not English anymore. Even your name you should say with katakana pron. Otherwise people won't understand and won't know what to call you.
The reverse is true with saying Japanese words in English such as karate (kRAti).
@lingosteve because the Japanese writing system is literally the most difficult in the world. Do you somehow mean to say that your "listen and speak method" attributed to your ability to write Japanese?
I rarely write in Japanese and only on a computer with a word processing system. I do not understand your question. I also do not think the Japanese writing system is the most difficult.
@lingosteve It is widely agreed upon that the Japanese system is the most difficult living writing system according to Dr. Hofman of MIT in a study conducted in 1988; and my question is essentially asking how do you expect to gain literacy in any language with the methods presented on your website; much less in languages that have writing systems that are dependent on either native speaker fluency or years of study (ie: Arabic, Japanese, Chinese, ect.)
I find the Chinese writing system more difficult, no phonetic symbols and more characters to learn. I did write Chinese characters when I learned them, but can no longer do so. I never wrote Japanese but have no trouble reading it. I have never said people should not write. Writing and writing correction is an integral part of LingQ. I just find that reading and listening are the most effective, most portable and most practical approaches to language learning. That is what I did for Japanese.
@lingosteve The Chinese writing system is fairly consistent in its ability to represent phonetic values in their intend linguistic environments every time, not to mention the Chinese character syllabary is highly productive of new characters as well as their ability to derive sound or meaning after long enough exposure to the language; the Japanese system's mixing of Kanji and Kana render readings that are not in kana as completely in the air with as many as 8 readings per character
@lingosteve Further more, pedagogically teaching language like Chinese and Japanese are particularly difficult without a command of their grammars or syntaxes. I supposed that based upon your introduction of the LingQ system, grammar and competence seems secondary to your primary focus of hearing, speaking and performance. Do you mean to tell me that you learned 10 languages without any kind of grammatical analyses of any of them?
Essentially yes. I certainly spent no time on grammar with Chinese and Japanese. I had French grammar at school but did not really learn until I left the study of grammar. That is not to say that I do not look at grammar books, for Russian say, right now, but I do not make it a focal point of my studies. I do not expect to understand or remember what is written there until after I have had a lot exposure to the language.
As to the difficulty of reading Japanese. Theoretically you may be right. but it never bothered me. I learned Japanese on my own. If you listen once or twice while reading the texts you are working on, you get to figure out how to pronounce words. And those I cannot pronounce I just guess at or don't pronounce. At least there are fewer characters to learn. I do not believe you can teach a language, only learn one. So "pedagogically speaking" is not a concept that I spend a lot of time on.
@JonVonD One of my Japanese friends told me that she doesn't remember how to write anymore because she never writes by hand, always using computer or mobile. Another Japanese has written on his website that we foreigners shouldn't concentrate on writing as reading, listening comprehension and speaking are more important.
what he means is, you learn grammar better naturally, he basically guesses the correct use coz he's heard it so many times. This is a crucial concept that enables people like him to learn languages so well. You learn better by assimilating the language rather than studying it in detail as you would a subject such as physics. This may seem counter-intuitive, but it works.
It isn't counter-intuitive. Children before the critical period are thought to do the same thing-- decipher the meaning of words and phrases based on input.
共感できます。
いまの自分は英語を習う意味では赤ん坊と思っています。
赤ん坊は周りから色々な事を少しずつ覚えていくわけですし。
幼児は日本語圏では日本語、英語圏なら英語を普通に話していますが
文法とか意識していないで話していると思いますし。
好きなジャンルで一杯聞きたいと思うのには共感もてます。
まだ初めて２週間ですが学校の英語より断然楽しいです。
jajaja2086 1 year ago
Hi Steve,
I agree with pretty much everything you say. One thing though, when you say a katakana word you are saying it with English pronunciation. A Japanese person will not understand this and it is not Japanese. These words may have come from English, but they are not English anymore. Even your name you should say with katakana pron. Otherwise people won't understand and won't know what to call you.
The reverse is true with saying Japanese words in English such as karate (kRAti).
Cheers
thermal7777 3 years ago
katakana is just a script used to write foreign loaned words
jangoonpants 2 years ago
it's read phonetically... not necessarily english pronounciation because not all words were loaned from english
jangoonpants 2 years ago
Very good!
As a person who despises grammar, how did you get around mastering (or at least getting to knowm them intimately well) the Japanese particles?
microblan 3 years ago
I do not know what a Japanese particle is. I just listen and read and acquire words and phrases.
lingosteve 3 years ago
@lingosteve Then you are illiterate in Japanese?
JonVonD 2 years ago
No, I read newspapers, novels and write using computer, why?
lingosteve 2 years ago
@lingosteve because the Japanese writing system is literally the most difficult in the world. Do you somehow mean to say that your "listen and speak method" attributed to your ability to write Japanese?
JonVonD 2 years ago
I rarely write in Japanese and only on a computer with a word processing system. I do not understand your question. I also do not think the Japanese writing system is the most difficult.
lingosteve 2 years ago
@lingosteve It is widely agreed upon that the Japanese system is the most difficult living writing system according to Dr. Hofman of MIT in a study conducted in 1988; and my question is essentially asking how do you expect to gain literacy in any language with the methods presented on your website; much less in languages that have writing systems that are dependent on either native speaker fluency or years of study (ie: Arabic, Japanese, Chinese, ect.)
JonVonD 2 years ago
I find the Chinese writing system more difficult, no phonetic symbols and more characters to learn. I did write Chinese characters when I learned them, but can no longer do so. I never wrote Japanese but have no trouble reading it. I have never said people should not write. Writing and writing correction is an integral part of LingQ. I just find that reading and listening are the most effective, most portable and most practical approaches to language learning. That is what I did for Japanese.
lingosteve 2 years ago
@lingosteve The Chinese writing system is fairly consistent in its ability to represent phonetic values in their intend linguistic environments every time, not to mention the Chinese character syllabary is highly productive of new characters as well as their ability to derive sound or meaning after long enough exposure to the language; the Japanese system's mixing of Kanji and Kana render readings that are not in kana as completely in the air with as many as 8 readings per character
JonVonD 2 years ago
@lingosteve Further more, pedagogically teaching language like Chinese and Japanese are particularly difficult without a command of their grammars or syntaxes. I supposed that based upon your introduction of the LingQ system, grammar and competence seems secondary to your primary focus of hearing, speaking and performance. Do you mean to tell me that you learned 10 languages without any kind of grammatical analyses of any of them?
JonVonD 2 years ago
Essentially yes. I certainly spent no time on grammar with Chinese and Japanese. I had French grammar at school but did not really learn until I left the study of grammar. That is not to say that I do not look at grammar books, for Russian say, right now, but I do not make it a focal point of my studies. I do not expect to understand or remember what is written there until after I have had a lot exposure to the language.
lingosteve 2 years ago
As to the difficulty of reading Japanese. Theoretically you may be right. but it never bothered me. I learned Japanese on my own. If you listen once or twice while reading the texts you are working on, you get to figure out how to pronounce words. And those I cannot pronounce I just guess at or don't pronounce. At least there are fewer characters to learn. I do not believe you can teach a language, only learn one. So "pedagogically speaking" is not a concept that I spend a lot of time on.
lingosteve 2 years ago
@JonVonD One of my Japanese friends told me that she doesn't remember how to write anymore because she never writes by hand, always using computer or mobile. Another Japanese has written on his website that we foreigners shouldn't concentrate on writing as reading, listening comprehension and speaking are more important.
marckami 8 months ago
what he means is, you learn grammar better naturally, he basically guesses the correct use coz he's heard it so many times. This is a crucial concept that enables people like him to learn languages so well. You learn better by assimilating the language rather than studying it in detail as you would a subject such as physics. This may seem counter-intuitive, but it works.
zeropeanuts 3 years ago
It isn't counter-intuitive. Children before the critical period are thought to do the same thing-- decipher the meaning of words and phrases based on input.
knightofthecross 2 years ago
Interesting topic. By the way, podcast is spelled ポッドキャスト in Japanese :)
wujlm42 3 years ago
Many thanks.
lingosteve 3 years ago