Jesus was a great guy! he pointed out the evil money changers and even ruined them for a short time, that is really why they killed him. so there ya go, a devout Atheist with the utmost admiration for Jesus as a man. a great way to open dialog with believers...
It's not that people are brainwashed, its that I believe that just as fundamental as the drives of sex, food and safety is the drive for transcendence -- whether it be through drugs, through "spirituality", through a codified religion, etc.
Also, being afraid to publicly admit it, or it being taboo at all, is a rather disturbing concept also. Got to say though, we have a choice in school very early on, here in Europe (Belgium). We can choosing between Christian religion or Atheist lessons, so I guess that plays in our/my approach to the subject, as in being more open minded about it.
Funny how I started watching your Axis-64 videos, and ended up in here ...
hmm.. the fact that "Christian religion" is a choice in European schools seems weird. No public schools here are allowed to have "Christian lessons".. although they probably do get away with it in the bible belt.
Actually no, we call it "cours de morale" which could be translated by "moral conduct lessons" or "morality lessons".
The lessons are/were usually based on discussing subjects such as education fundamentals, philosophy, sexuality, such things ...
Only there is a Christian approach to it, or Atheist depending on the student's choice. Now this was like 2 hours a week, mind you. Anything else taught at the school was without any such religious "influence" whatsoever.
I see. You scared me there for a second. At first I thought you meant that there was either "christian lessons" or "morality lessons" (as if we atheists somehow need morality lessons and christians don't. :)
Sorry bout that, tried finding the right words the first time, but it came out way wrong. Was susceptible of being interpreted out of context.
Got to love the quoted psalms below by the way.
It's like that other famous religious book I once took a look at, it was amazing how scholars discussed their interpretations and understanding of some shady texts. Yet the thing meant basically whatever you wanted it to be.
Christianity has such a huge role in US culture (think "atheist US President" to get an idea of what I mean).
As for remnants of belief, I find it puzzling. Once they question that sort of beliefs, I can't understand how there is a middle ground (as in not believing/accepting those doctrines, and yet at the same time still cultivate that fear of a "god" ?).
I've met quite a few newly people who had just become atheist and they explained that the fear of god is actually a deeply rooted feeling that they have a hard time kicking, even though they know it's nonsense. I can't even imagine that! :(
Without a personal relationship with God, you will experience a persistent sense of profound loneliness. If you don't love God, then you will feel a discordant sense of futility. Without God, life is "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless." [Ecclesiastes 1:2 NIV]
trustyshellback - but I don't even understand the definition of "God", let alone have any relationship with God, and I do not "experience a persistent sense of profound loneliness". I do not "feel a discordant sense of futility" and I do see great meaning in life.
"ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE." This quotation was uttered by a NASA scientist in regard to the search for intelligent life. But it can be applied also to the search for the ultimate form of intelligent life: God.
trustyshellback - No it can't because "God" cannot be defined. There is nothing to find evidence for, if we don't know what to look for. That is a huge difference that you are overlooking.
I myself grew up in a strongly christian background and left that for a long 10 year foray into eastern philosophy, searching for 'answers'. There are no answers. Even the atheists are just as lost and brainwashed as anybody else, only in other ways. As I like to say "We're all crazy and nobody knows the truth." I want that to be on my gravestone :op
The difference is that atheists are not afraid to say "I don't know". In fact, we find it exciting that "we don't know". We naturally have the drive to learn as much as we can.
Everybody is brainwashed in some way. There is no freedom from cultural programming all the way down to the symbols and language you speak. Not to mention your genetic code which you are not responsible for.
if people really go to meetings like that because they need the feeling of a community backing them, because they somehow feel bad when they confront god and their former community('s beliefs), and that community needs to have a name so they can name it, then shouldnt it be something like "recovery from religion self help group" rather than "atheist meeting"? it just feels so wrong to handle atheism as if it is a religion itself. it shouldnt be that way.
"old and grownup, 20s 30s, 40s"??? LOL! Atheism is just another sneaky form of hate. You're not really as much as a non-believer as you are intolerant of those that you consider "brain-washed". And being an atheist is just a nice, passive, smug way of saying 'F... Y..! I hate you!' If one day everyone accepted your atheism you'd probably go find something else or adopt some other belief, cause or idea to skewer society and set yourself apart from the rest of the zombies, right? Just a guess.
Why do you think atheism is a form of hate? It means "non-theist". Beyond that, it doesn't mean anything. There are all different types who are atheists. You assign too much meaning to the term atheist.
You think I would look for something other than atheism if everyone else became atheist? That would mean I would become some sort of theist. You surely haven't thought that one through!
If that happened we'd ALL stop using the word atheist, since it's meaning is in relation to "theists"! :-)
"The universe is not stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we CAN imagine." [NASA: unidentified astronomer]
"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." [Donald Rumsfeld]
My parents were from opposing religions. It caused that much friction amongst their families they had to migrate, and decided to raise their children totally free of any religious "education".
Lucky me. Receiving nothing was such a precious gift.
But as far as going to an atheist meeting, I just dont get it. It would be like me going to a non-baseball-fan convention.
There are 3 types of atheist meetings that I've seen in action, which I listed in a thread with burnvictim. They all seemed to benefit SOME people at the meetings.
Another reason is to bond together as atheists in a religious world and discuss what we DO think about, what brings us enlightenment, inner peace, and motivation. The really deep things tend to be science-related.. all sorts of wonderful mysteries, and we acknowledge that belief in God would not add to the experience.
I go to the local atheist meet-ups here and they vary in topic depending on who shows up. If the group is big enough, we end up splitting up into smaller groups to talk. Most of the time, it's just a bunch of people with common interests socializing--sometimes talking about religion, sometimes not.
Yeah, that is what our local group is like. Our last one was fun - we watched a video of a man lecturing on the "history of hell" which spelled out various hell mythology. It was pretty humorous actually.. made the recently-converted-atheists wonder why they ever believed in hell. When we all introduced ourselves, it felt like a support group though. "Hi, I'm an atheist.. it's not easy.. I'm afraid my friends will know I came here.." Some of them need that though.
I just can't get into Atheist "groups." To me it just reeks of being a crutch to replace what they feel they've lost in the form of church community. Plus, it just reinforces the Us vs. Them mindset that creates the politicization of the issue.
Yeah, there are areas where atheists may experience active discrimination. But, by and large, I feel that the fear they experience of 'being found out' is irrational. Of course, they don't usually see it that way.
When they convince themselves they have lost their belief in God, yet still admit they fear God may be looking down on them, it is residual brainwashing that still has a hold on them. They even admit it's irrational.
By brainwashing I simply mean they have strengthened "belief-in-god" connections in their brain that will take time to weaken.
Their prior "brainwashing" conflicts with newer connections they've made, forming a disconnect.
They admit it's irrational. It's like a drug addiction.
I don't find it to be a meaningful word if we use it to refer to things such as this. These people have learned a worldview. They have difficulty in unlearning it. It is the shame with all paradigm shifts.
I restrict brainwashing to a more rigorous usage; why actual tactics like starvation, torture, sleep deprivation, or removal of individuality are used (see: military boot camp).
Wow... that was full of confusing misusages... "shame" should be same. Why should be "in which"... Just pretend like I'm making sense. Nod your head and pretend to drink the tea. I'll doze off eventually.
LOL. ok.. then what the heck word can I use instead of brainwashing? Being forced to go to church at least once a week and recite craziness over and over and be forced to speak in tongues seems worse than boot camp. I've met plenty of military folks who still have a somewhat healthy outlook.
hmm.. "learned a world view" seems a bit soft. This is serious business, this god-fearing-world-view stuff.
Forgive my hick-sounding language. My old twang comes out sometimes. yeehaw
Okay... I was forced to go to public school everyday and learn things like math and reading. Why is this not brainwashing? The only difference I can see is that you believe I should learn A but not B, therefore B is brainwashing.
I agree with you.. Gary said: "I restrict brainwashing to a more rigorous usage; why actual tactics like starvation, torture, sleep deprivation, or removal of individuality are used.." And being raised in a religious household is right up there with "removal of individuality".. or more accurately, "blocking of rational thought process".
WITH I CONSIDER A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE THING. I'D RATHER BE TORTURED.
So AGAIN, what other word could I use?? I'm open..
If your value judgment isn't already evident to you, take another look at what you've suggested. Essentially, teaching children a worldview you do no agree with is brainwashing. Not only that, but all "religious households" are equal in their complicity.
Now, imagine that you believe X. Would you not teach your children X? If X happens to also be false, does it mean you've "brainwashed" them?
If you feel I'm attacking a strawman, please feel free to make a video explaining what precisely makes a religious upbringing brainwashing versus a non-religious upbringing. Can one brainwash a person to become an atheist?
"teaching a worldview"??? It's the supernatural part that is irrational.
You assume I think "all religious households are equal in their complicity"? come on.
You are being very simplistic in this whole discussion, stating the obvious, etc. It's really strange coming from you. :(
It is dangerous when parents raise their kids to not think things through, causing them to form disconnects, and to never look head-on at these disconnects. OBVIOUSLY there are different levels of this "danger".
"You still didn't answer whether or not one could be brainwashed to believe something true/rational."
I haven't answered that because I don't really know.. I agree that I should probably use another word, and keep asking you, but you haven't made any suggestions.
I've seen this as well. I know a lapsed Catholic who is devoutly atheist at this point who grows uncomfortable when someone even mentions something such as how the story of Christ is at least potent in a mythological sense.
It's as if any acknowledgement of the validity or value of ANY of it raises the uncomfortable possibility ALL of it might be true.
I relate this stuff to drug addiction as I said above. It's sorta comparable to recovering alcoholics who have trained themselves to react badly to the sight of alcohol in order to avoid it, or vegans who have a violent reaction to the sight of meat.. even though alcohol and meat are seen as good things by most rational people. (especially alcohol. lol)
It's probably a side effect of in general, a lack of family support. It was probably a fight for them to establish themselves as what they are, and now they are at least a bit guarded and defensive about their atheism.
Jesus was a great guy! he pointed out the evil money changers and even ruined them for a short time, that is really why they killed him. so there ya go, a devout Atheist with the utmost admiration for Jesus as a man. a great way to open dialog with believers...
uturniaphobic 1 year ago
It's not that people are brainwashed, its that I believe that just as fundamental as the drives of sex, food and safety is the drive for transcendence -- whether it be through drugs, through "spirituality", through a codified religion, etc.
Edman275 1 year ago
Also, being afraid to publicly admit it, or it being taboo at all, is a rather disturbing concept also. Got to say though, we have a choice in school very early on, here in Europe (Belgium). We can choosing between Christian religion or Atheist lessons, so I guess that plays in our/my approach to the subject, as in being more open minded about it.
Funny how I started watching your Axis-64 videos, and ended up in here ...
golgoth667 3 years ago
hmm.. the fact that "Christian religion" is a choice in European schools seems weird. No public schools here are allowed to have "Christian lessons".. although they probably do get away with it in the bible belt.
Do they actually use the term "Atheist lessons"??
miselaineeous 3 years ago
Actually no, we call it "cours de morale" which could be translated by "moral conduct lessons" or "morality lessons".
The lessons are/were usually based on discussing subjects such as education fundamentals, philosophy, sexuality, such things ...
Only there is a Christian approach to it, or Atheist depending on the student's choice. Now this was like 2 hours a week, mind you. Anything else taught at the school was without any such religious "influence" whatsoever.
golgoth667 3 years ago
I see. You scared me there for a second. At first I thought you meant that there was either "christian lessons" or "morality lessons" (as if we atheists somehow need morality lessons and christians don't. :)
miselaineeous 3 years ago
Sorry bout that, tried finding the right words the first time, but it came out way wrong. Was susceptible of being interpreted out of context.
Got to love the quoted psalms below by the way.
It's like that other famous religious book I once took a look at, it was amazing how scholars discussed their interpretations and understanding of some shady texts. Yet the thing meant basically whatever you wanted it to be.
Subjectivity and brainwashing.
golgoth667 3 years ago
Not to my knowledge. I live in the thick of the bible belt. Its too diverse now. You can have afterschool meetings and things of that nature.
cymbeli 3 years ago
Christianity has such a huge role in US culture (think "atheist US President" to get an idea of what I mean).
As for remnants of belief, I find it puzzling. Once they question that sort of beliefs, I can't understand how there is a middle ground (as in not believing/accepting those doctrines, and yet at the same time still cultivate that fear of a "god" ?).
golgoth667 3 years ago
I've met quite a few newly people who had just become atheist and they explained that the fear of god is actually a deeply rooted feeling that they have a hard time kicking, even though they know it's nonsense. I can't even imagine that! :(
miselaineeous 3 years ago
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." [Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 NIV]
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? [Isaiah 40:26 NIV]
Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. [Jeremiah 17:5 NIV]
TrustyShellback 3 years ago
Trusty, my friend, I will just keep repeating this until you understand that I do not understand:
I don't say "There is no God."
I say, "Please define God. I have no idea what you are talking about when you keep referring to 'God'."
I lift my eyes to the skies all the time. I am both amazed and curious! It is a wonderful journey to be curious.
I'm not turning away from a LORD. I have no idea what a "LORD" is. Can you please also define LORD? :)
miselaineeous 3 years ago
Without a personal relationship with God, you will experience a persistent sense of profound loneliness. If you don't love God, then you will feel a discordant sense of futility. Without God, life is "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless." [Ecclesiastes 1:2 NIV]
TrustyShellback 3 years ago
trustyshellback - but I don't even understand the definition of "God", let alone have any relationship with God, and I do not "experience a persistent sense of profound loneliness". I do not "feel a discordant sense of futility" and I do see great meaning in life.
So, speak for yourself, Ecclesiastes! ;-)
miselaineeous 3 years ago
"ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE." This quotation was uttered by a NASA scientist in regard to the search for intelligent life. But it can be applied also to the search for the ultimate form of intelligent life: God.
TrustyShellback 3 years ago
trustyshellback - No it can't because "God" cannot be defined. There is nothing to find evidence for, if we don't know what to look for. That is a huge difference that you are overlooking.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I myself grew up in a strongly christian background and left that for a long 10 year foray into eastern philosophy, searching for 'answers'. There are no answers. Even the atheists are just as lost and brainwashed as anybody else, only in other ways. As I like to say "We're all crazy and nobody knows the truth." I want that to be on my gravestone :op
11jupitercowboy8 3 years ago
The difference is that atheists are not afraid to say "I don't know". In fact, we find it exciting that "we don't know". We naturally have the drive to learn as much as we can.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
Everybody is brainwashed in some way. There is no freedom from cultural programming all the way down to the symbols and language you speak. Not to mention your genetic code which you are not responsible for.
11jupitercowboy8 3 years ago
if people really go to meetings like that because they need the feeling of a community backing them, because they somehow feel bad when they confront god and their former community('s beliefs), and that community needs to have a name so they can name it, then shouldnt it be something like "recovery from religion self help group" rather than "atheist meeting"? it just feels so wrong to handle atheism as if it is a religion itself. it shouldnt be that way.
playgrrrr 3 years ago
okay now i made that comment more complicated than it needs to be again. i always get caught up in word things. -.-
playgrrrr 3 years ago
"old and grownup, 20s 30s, 40s"??? LOL! Atheism is just another sneaky form of hate. You're not really as much as a non-believer as you are intolerant of those that you consider "brain-washed". And being an atheist is just a nice, passive, smug way of saying 'F... Y..! I hate you!' If one day everyone accepted your atheism you'd probably go find something else or adopt some other belief, cause or idea to skewer society and set yourself apart from the rest of the zombies, right? Just a guess.
wildnites558 3 years ago
Why do you think atheism is a form of hate? It means "non-theist". Beyond that, it doesn't mean anything. There are all different types who are atheists. You assign too much meaning to the term atheist.
You think I would look for something other than atheism if everyone else became atheist? That would mean I would become some sort of theist. You surely haven't thought that one through!
If that happened we'd ALL stop using the word atheist, since it's meaning is in relation to "theists"! :-)
miselaineeous 3 years ago
"The universe is not stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we CAN imagine." [NASA: unidentified astronomer]
"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." [Donald Rumsfeld]
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW.
God:
ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE
IS NOT
EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
TrustyShellback 3 years ago
My parents were from opposing religions. It caused that much friction amongst their families they had to migrate, and decided to raise their children totally free of any religious "education".
Lucky me. Receiving nothing was such a precious gift.
But as far as going to an atheist meeting, I just dont get it. It would be like me going to a non-baseball-fan convention.
mjdoyza 3 years ago
There are 3 types of atheist meetings that I've seen in action, which I listed in a thread with burnvictim. They all seemed to benefit SOME people at the meetings.
Another reason is to bond together as atheists in a religious world and discuss what we DO think about, what brings us enlightenment, inner peace, and motivation. The really deep things tend to be science-related.. all sorts of wonderful mysteries, and we acknowledge that belief in God would not add to the experience.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I guess an organised meeting makes more sense than talking religion down the pub with a random stranger.
But its funny how the alcohol acts as a truth serum and you tend to see a persons uninhibited view of a touchy topic.
mjdoyza 3 years ago
i hope you were educated about religion(s), just not in a religious way.
playgrrrr 3 years ago
I go to the local atheist meet-ups here and they vary in topic depending on who shows up. If the group is big enough, we end up splitting up into smaller groups to talk. Most of the time, it's just a bunch of people with common interests socializing--sometimes talking about religion, sometimes not.
CousinoMacul 3 years ago
Yeah, that is what our local group is like. Our last one was fun - we watched a video of a man lecturing on the "history of hell" which spelled out various hell mythology. It was pretty humorous actually.. made the recently-converted-atheists wonder why they ever believed in hell. When we all introduced ourselves, it felt like a support group though. "Hi, I'm an atheist.. it's not easy.. I'm afraid my friends will know I came here.." Some of them need that though.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I just can't get into Atheist "groups." To me it just reeks of being a crutch to replace what they feel they've lost in the form of church community. Plus, it just reinforces the Us vs. Them mindset that creates the politicization of the issue.
Yeah, there are areas where atheists may experience active discrimination. But, by and large, I feel that the fear they experience of 'being found out' is irrational. Of course, they don't usually see it that way.
burnvictim77 3 years ago
My one question: what qualifies as brainwashing?
burnvictim77 3 years ago
When they convince themselves they have lost their belief in God, yet still admit they fear God may be looking down on them, it is residual brainwashing that still has a hold on them. They even admit it's irrational.
By brainwashing I simply mean they have strengthened "belief-in-god" connections in their brain that will take time to weaken.
Their prior "brainwashing" conflicts with newer connections they've made, forming a disconnect.
They admit it's irrational. It's like a drug addiction.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I say the word "brainwashing" 200 times in this video. Is that ok?
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I don't find it to be a meaningful word if we use it to refer to things such as this. These people have learned a worldview. They have difficulty in unlearning it. It is the shame with all paradigm shifts.
I restrict brainwashing to a more rigorous usage; why actual tactics like starvation, torture, sleep deprivation, or removal of individuality are used (see: military boot camp).
burnvictim77 3 years ago
Wow... that was full of confusing misusages... "shame" should be same. Why should be "in which"... Just pretend like I'm making sense. Nod your head and pretend to drink the tea. I'll doze off eventually.
burnvictim77 3 years ago
LOL. ok.. then what the heck word can I use instead of brainwashing? Being forced to go to church at least once a week and recite craziness over and over and be forced to speak in tongues seems worse than boot camp. I've met plenty of military folks who still have a somewhat healthy outlook.
hmm.. "learned a world view" seems a bit soft. This is serious business, this god-fearing-world-view stuff.
Forgive my hick-sounding language. My old twang comes out sometimes. yeehaw
miselaineeous 3 years ago
Okay... I was forced to go to public school everyday and learn things like math and reading. Why is this not brainwashing? The only difference I can see is that you believe I should learn A but not B, therefore B is brainwashing.
burnvictim77 3 years ago
Gary, why are you being so silly?
I agree with you.. Gary said: "I restrict brainwashing to a more rigorous usage; why actual tactics like starvation, torture, sleep deprivation, or removal of individuality are used.." And being raised in a religious household is right up there with "removal of individuality".. or more accurately, "blocking of rational thought process".
WITH I CONSIDER A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE THING. I'D RATHER BE TORTURED.
So AGAIN, what other word could I use?? I'm open..
miselaineeous 3 years ago
If your value judgment isn't already evident to you, take another look at what you've suggested. Essentially, teaching children a worldview you do no agree with is brainwashing. Not only that, but all "religious households" are equal in their complicity.
Now, imagine that you believe X. Would you not teach your children X? If X happens to also be false, does it mean you've "brainwashed" them?
burnvictim77 3 years ago
If you feel I'm attacking a strawman, please feel free to make a video explaining what precisely makes a religious upbringing brainwashing versus a non-religious upbringing. Can one brainwash a person to become an atheist?
burnvictim77 3 years ago
"teaching a worldview"??? It's the supernatural part that is irrational.
You assume I think "all religious households are equal in their complicity"? come on.
You are being very simplistic in this whole discussion, stating the obvious, etc. It's really strange coming from you. :(
It is dangerous when parents raise their kids to not think things through, causing them to form disconnects, and to never look head-on at these disconnects. OBVIOUSLY there are different levels of this "danger".
miselaineeous 3 years ago
"It's the supernatural part that is irrational."
Okay, here's where I don't understand your reasoning. Are you saying that it is brainwashing to teach kids something irrational?
You still didn't answer whether or not one could be brainwashed to believe something true/rational.
burnvictim77 3 years ago
"You still didn't answer whether or not one could be brainwashed to believe something true/rational."
I haven't answered that because I don't really know.. I agree that I should probably use another word, and keep asking you, but you haven't made any suggestions.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I have yet to find an atheist group that is what I am personally looking for.. more on that later.
so far I have seen 3 types of "atheist meetup groups":
(1) people who feel they are missing some type of community-social-interaction that their old church used to provide.
(2) libertarian atheists who want to wildly debate libertarianism. no, I don't get this one.
(3) support groups for new-ish atheists. "Hello my name is so and so and I am an Atheist." that statement is hard for them to say.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I've seen this as well. I know a lapsed Catholic who is devoutly atheist at this point who grows uncomfortable when someone even mentions something such as how the story of Christ is at least potent in a mythological sense.
It's as if any acknowledgement of the validity or value of ANY of it raises the uncomfortable possibility ALL of it might be true.
stevesincali 3 years ago
I relate this stuff to drug addiction as I said above. It's sorta comparable to recovering alcoholics who have trained themselves to react badly to the sight of alcohol in order to avoid it, or vegans who have a violent reaction to the sight of meat.. even though alcohol and meat are seen as good things by most rational people. (especially alcohol. lol)
miselaineeous 3 years ago
It's probably a side effect of in general, a lack of family support. It was probably a fight for them to establish themselves as what they are, and now they are at least a bit guarded and defensive about their atheism.
Check these 2 Youtube videos.
watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo
watch?v=T35_vQms4Ck
jinitron 3 years ago
Just wanted to say, keep the vids coming, you are a very interesting person! I think I'll have to check out some Zia music.
DogHouse2006 3 years ago