Pushing The Issue (Part 2): Tai Chi Push Hands Competitions

[aspiringbodhisattva]

I am a student of Master Wang Hai Jun, student of Chen Zheng Lei. Master Wang won gold medals in push hands many years in a row around Asia. I have been a serious martial artist for 20 years, in addition to almost 10 with him. I could not agree more with your critique here. Chen Tai Chi is meant as a sincere, real-world martial art, not something all in your head. It, like other internal martial arts, is easy to create ideas of. Just practice sincerely with a qualified teacher.

[phauna]

The Chinese version looks just like wrestling, why don't they just train wrestling.

[TomKagan]

@phauna If you were a Chinese poster, would you be looking at the videos for wrestling and commenting something like "That wrestling looks like Tai Chi/Shaui Jiao/Mongolian/etc. Why don't they just train that?"

[phauna]

@TomKagan Well, shui jiao and mongolian wrestling *are* no gi wrestling. Sumo is also wrestling, Judo is pretty close but the gi does change the look of it a bit. They look almost exactly the same as wrestling. This is because there are only a limited number of ways to throw another human. Tai chi of course is not wrestling although it may have a couple of throws in it.

The method of training is what makes it wrestling; partners use resistance and it is goal oriented, not form oriented.

[TomKagan]

@phauna Are you suggesting that to study Tai Chi you have no goal, but only form?

[phauna]

@TomKagan The goal seems to be to copy perfectly a particular form. If your goal is to learn to fight with tai chi then at some point you have to fight. Doing forms will never, ever bridge the gap from form to application.

[TomKagan]

@phauna Okay. Do you have a relevant point which is related to this video?

[dekal1]

That judge was bothering me. STOP.

STOP.

STOP.

STOP.

[jwhitenstall]

Thanks for the video, I have never before seen American push-hands competition. I wonder how the rules compare in the European push hands circuit.

[xxbrokenwishesxx]

No discussion? OK how about this: Whether US or China, what I see looks like a combo of bad judo/sumo. How about this, which I believe Cheng himself said something of the sort - If your opponent shoves a good solid push into your chest or gut, you loose whether you're moved or not. Toss the judo/sumo stuff. Replace it with separate MMA grappling training.

The idea here is that getting off a clean push is like landing a blow, but even harder to do. Better fight training? Now you gonna talk Tom?

[mywingchunsucks]

"Whether US or China, what I see looks like a comb of bad judo/sumo." -- I agree.

[xxbrokenwishesxx]

Tom, do you really believe cheng's demo is for real? Because it is quite obviously manipulated. Like his contemporaries, he was a bullshitter, buddies like bob smith and tt liang gladly helping him out here. Nothing really scientific to be found in any of cheng's writtings, nor have you presented anything here. Vaguaries certainly abound though. So is it any wonder that in the money sports like boxing and MMA, you never find tai chi in general, nor push hands in particular, even mentioned?

[dashen]

The asian version does look a lot more like Wing Chun push hands than Tai Chi though. They don't seem to root as much, and there is a little too much extraneous movement which is more common in Wing Chun. Still, the American version is ridiculous.

[TomKagan]

I would suggest sticking to making dumb comments on Tai Chi without adding dumb comparisons to other arts which you do not know.

[dashen]

Of course none of the people who do competitions usually are real masters. My dad is seriously good, but definitely not a master (my grandfather was though), but I have seen him hold off 3 guys pushing him at the same time. He did train a few people when I was younger for competitions, but he was never interested in it himself.

[dashen]

Being someone who was trained by my father in Tai Chi from a very young age, who was taught by my grandfather in Taiwan who was a real Tai Chi master, I am offended by the statements that Tai Chi somehow isn't a combative martial art. Also, if you think that two trained Tai Chi fighters should not appear to be using any force for fighting, you are totally misguided in your technique. Yes, against someone untrained, it should appear as if no effort is made, but against another trained fighter..

[mdub2000]

Damn....that judge pisses me off so bad...I want to use excessive force and drop him on his head. Thank you for posting this video more people need to know that tai chi is not about just being soft...its about the balance of yin and yang not just just excessive yin..the problem is overmarketing to hippie tai chi people who want to have the chuan but dont want to work at it.Theres nothing wrong with force whats important is efficient use of force.Tired of these chi blasters who softened the art.

[gordhill]

Tom, thanks for putting this up. I had no idea, first, how insane these competitions really are (i mean it in the most ridiculous way possible). and second, how POOR the actual knowledge is in this organization.

In my view, anyone who stands up to participate OR defend what is shown on the american pushhands competitions does not love NOR understand what taiji is.

[chlai88]

i think barring restrictions on the whole match degenerating into a complete free-for-all, there should be as little restrictions as possible. granted, sometimes it does not look like taiji but unfortunately, the only way to gauge one's skill is simply whether you can handle your opponent and not when it looks correct because then it'll just rely on the observer's subjectivity. if i lose because of a karate move, there's nothing to complain about and it just only shows i need more practice.

[vainman]

just a question, look at 2.32 is the competitor in the white shirt displaying taiji skill?

No, clearly he is off balance. compare this to Chenmanqing and there is no similarity as you suggest. If he would have gotten points for this it would have positively reinforced bad martial skill in anything but the MMA.

Effectiveness is not the goal of push hands. In fact, I am not a fan of competetive push hands, for no other reason than I stated above, it ofeten rewards bad martial skill.

[TomKagan]

No competition is perfect. But subjective interpretation is not a better solution. You can argue whether push hands should be used as the basis of competition, but that argument was already lost a long time ago.

If the person is 'clearly off balance" as you suggest, his opponent should be able to use it. He didn't.

You cannot compare someone with truly elite level skil with anyone except others of truly elite skill. When the playing field is level, mistakes happen.

[vainman]

Talk about condecending. Please define good taijiquan.

I thought taiji was defined by following the taiji priniples???

[TomKagan]

Regardless of any other factor, Good Tai Chi is, first an foremost, defined by its results: It provides a demonstrable increase in fighting skill to the practitioner.

Your car can be quite beautiful, but if it won't start and get you to work on time, it's no longer a car; it's a lawn ornament. The clunker which runs is a better car.

[vainman]

this is flawed logic. Good Taiji is defined by principles. Good fighting skill is what you define.

My car does not run, my son has a scooter that gets him to work, which is the better car. My car that does not run because his scooter is not a car.

My point is that there is a difference between fighting skill and taiji skill. My belief is that taiji skill will trump fighting skill, but if we focus on on fighting skill before understanding taiji, then we will never understand taiji.

[TomKagan]

Good Tai Chi will not trump fighting skill. IT IS fighting skill. If the principles do not lead to fighting, it is not Tai Chi, either.

[vainman]

ah, but again we disagree. Taiji is not simply fighting skill, but a specific art that exists within the realm of fighting skill. Here is where you have been mislead, or gotten confused. As I have stated many times, principles. Please study the taiji principles for a deeper understanding of the art before you set yourself up in a public domain as an expert.

[TomKagan]

Perhaps it is you who should review the principles before attempting to discuss martial art in a public realm at all? At very least, you should recognize your own bias in the conversation. No where did I suggest what I said was an associative argument. "simply" is your word, not mine.

Tai Chi can be more than fighting, but it must be at least fighting. I am not an expert in Tai Chi, but it doesn't take an expert in anything to recognize that without fighting, it isn't even a martial art.

[vainman]

and here we have the breakdown of logic again, I never said to remove the fighting, that was your statement.

This video is rubbish, all of the taiji in it except from chenmanqing is bad. Even the voiceover admits that these are early push hands competitions.

[TomKagan]

If you want to make the subjective interpretation of the quality of competitors "rubbish" of either competition, that's your prerogative. But this is not relevant to the actual aspect of the competitive arena. If Tai Chi cannot be showcased in a competitive manner where the rules allow a level playing field and minimize subjective interpretation and the results are obvious to any martial artist regardless of background, then I would say that "removing the fighting" indeed was you said.

[vainman]

see, I am now beginning to question what language you read and comprehend. I stated the video is rubbish.

The taiji is poor. Not subjectivity, objective. See the definition of taiji.

[TomKagan]

The definition of any martial art isn't found in words, unless it's the hands that are doing the talking. Without such evidence of your criteria in which to measure it, you are far from attempting to be objective.

So, put it up. Show evidence of good Tai Chi between resisting opponents in a level and open playing field. I guarantee that, if you do this, it will look a lot more like the Chinese "rubbish" of which you subjectively evaluate than the American "rubbish" you subjectively evaluate.

[vainman]

I guarantee it will look nothing like force on force of the chinese tournament.

[TomKagan]

So you can't find any, can you?

[vainman]

I actually haven't tried since you obviously have no idea what the taiji principles are.

[TomKagan]

So, if I understand you correctly, you wish to instead attempt ad-hominem in your argument instead of providing evidence.

[dashen]

Being someone who was trained by my dad in Tai Chi who was trained by my grandfather and a real master of Tai Chi in Taiwan, I am deeply offended by people who somehow think that Tai Chi isn't a combative martial art. In fact, the roots of many forms of fighting in Asia come from the principles of Tai Chi because Tai Chi was created thousands of years ago by Chinese people for fighting. Wushu and Wing Chun take almost all their close combat principles from Tai Chi.

[SACREDFIREDOJOSHOW]

Thans for sharing this was awesome.

[Tianshanwarrior]

Soooooooooooooooooo True!

[nianfong]

american push hands are a fucking joke. you learn more by just applying taiji principles in a shuaijiao match. american push hands just looks like bad shuaijiao.

[ogretubing]

I love this video! My own taiji teacher, Ren Guangyi, used to get disqualified in US competitions. However, he won at the international competition in Chen Village. Go figure.

[stephenperera]

Your replies have not all been reasonable. But let's not go there.

Anyway, you said "The SKILL you talk of comes from learning what is force in the first place. If you don't make or receive any, it's impossible to also learn to redirect - you don't have anything to redirect! You aren't training it!"

[stephenperera]

I said "U don't know where the skill I talk of comes from. I said there is a technique of using UR bodyweight which is effective even if U don't weigh much. U said if you can't use and absorb force U will 'collapse at the first sign of resistance'. I said if you redirect, the force doesn't act on U, U don't resist."

I never disagreed that you must have force to redirect. You just assumed i did because of some preconceived notion of what i was saying. Read the comments again.

[TomKagan]

I have read the comments. You denigrate competitors by saying they have no skill and PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that you know what you are talking about. You dismiss a 12+ video containing a clear argument and numerous examples by saying "it's not effective"

I say it's quite reasonable to be skeptical and call you on the fluff you pedaling. Prove me wrong. I don't think you can.

[aaronCapricorn]

excessive force! glad i never got into wrestling. go ahead, throw your tomatoes. btw, martial arts is so much more than a fighting technique.

[TomKagan]

Perhaps it is "more than a fighting technique". However, it must AT LEAST be it.

[htsjr]

i thought i wanted to do this... just a bunch a mystic garbage... when the pressures on , you tai chi masters just start grappling like everyone else... very dissapointing

[mantelo17]

I don't know which Tai Chi "masters" you have been seing, but sure they aren't so good. Go to a good school y try to "pressure" a real Tai Chi practitioner and find out what it is about.

[glennfinito]

this was a great documentary.

The Chinese tai shou matches were far more interesting.

What's the deal with the carpet in Chinese matches? It seems to wrinkle up.

[JustGuess500]

I really liked the "osoto-gari" the Chinese competitor used. It was performed even more cleanly than I often see in judo.

[TomKagan]

Do you have evidence to support your position or at least evidence you know what you are talking about?

[abetheprofit]

This video untastefully uses the example of Cheng ManChing to support their argument. It just shows how push hands, chi & uprooting is completely misunderstood. In both competitions only physical force is used, there is no real power. It is not the real usage of chi. Although the video is arguing against the "rules" of what push hands should be, none in this footage have reached any achievement beyond physical force or understand real tai chi to make rules in the first place. Open to discuss.

[Spiritoftheearth]

mhm I think I've found a pretty good one in Dinkytown by the University of Minnesota. Searching for videos aren't for learning tai chi, but to see if this is really what I want to learn.

[Spiritoftheearth]

I would like to learn tai chi chuan, but I'm not sure where to start. after watching this it makes me feel like I'm not going to find any place where I can learn really what it's about. Could you give me any advice? Like maybe what I should look for?

[TomKagan]

While the internet may be useful to help you get advice, you should be looking for schools which teach Tai Chi, not for videos of Tai Chi on the internet. There are many martial art web sites which, with a little careful effort, you can use as a resource to help you with your search.

[bhshootingstar]

stupid judges

[mrsamsa]

so basically, it's clearly impossible to be either a winner or a loser in US tui sau competitions. the only thing you can do is not break a rule and win by default when the opponent disqualifies his or herself. disgusting.

[jnrmead]

Well said ! Although Taiji push hands is not fighting;it is training for defense and fighting,as far as I understand there are few rules when it comes to fighting.If a person were to learn these rule set out by the American push hands judges as principals;they are in for a big shock if they ever do get in to a confrontational situation out side of the circle , they will lack to ability and flow needed by a Taiji exponent to deal with such a situation.

[monkfg]

The American system SUCKS! Who thought that shit up and who made it official?

[pchow2ca]

I think the concept of Taichi tournment is wrong. Taichi was a mean to condition one's body and eliminate ego. If one want to prove his skill, he/she should enter a Judo, kendo,wresting or MMA tournment. Push hand tournment is a joke and meaningless whereever it occured. Most of these Chinese pushhand champion would not win in any other tournments or in a street fight.

[bajovato]

Looks like Shuai Jiao-Chinese Wrestling-Tai Chi originated from it. These judges are hurting the sport. It needs to stay true to the spirit of China. I agree 100% with this film.

[dhjmckenzie]

I fully agree with the points made in this video clip!

[TomKagan]

No.

You will not be able to 'redirect' force unless you are well versed in the skill of using force. By 'using', it should be understood that means in generating it and in absorbing it. Without this SKILL, your structure will just collapse at the first sign of resistance. It is the relationship between tension and relaxation which makes this work, not just softness.

[stephenperera]

Unreasonable.

You say that the skill is in redirecting yet you absorb it. If you absorb it the person is applying force to you. If the person is applying force to you it is difficult to put him off balance as he can use you to keep his balance or if he is stronger you will collapse, see clip - force on force. Anyone can do it. It's not effective. If the force is redirected, not acting on U, there is no reason to collapse. U R skeptical as U have seen people talk of not using force who R frauds

[TomKagan]

I did not say you had to absorb to redirect. (That's your words you misuse to create a strawman.)

The SKILL you talk of comes from learning what is force in the first place. If you don't make or receive any, it's impossible to also learn to redirect - you don't have anything to redirect! You aren't training it!

[stephenperera]

U don't know where the skill I talk of comes from. I said there is a technique of using UR bodyweight which is effective even if U don't weigh much. U said if you can't use and absorb force U will 'collapse at the first sign of resistance'. I said if you redirect, the force doesn't act on U, U don't resist.

Anyone who thinks i created a strawman just needs to watch the clip and listen to the voice over. They can see these people struggling against each other.

ITS NOT EFFECTIVE

[TomKagan]

If you think what they do is not effective, create a video to show what you are talking about? Given your less than knowledgeable comments on wrestling, I don't think you can. Prove me wrong.

f your partner is no good at applying force, you will be no good at redirecting it. You have nothing to learn it from! This is a FUNDAMENTAL of learning to redirect. Tai Chi does not defy the laws of physics and human learning.

[TomKagan]

The "struggle" is only never seen when the skill difference between two practitioners is extremely unmatched. Someone of great ability going up against someone of much lessor skill does not prove much of anything. Evenly matched practitioners will struggle - unless they are playing dead - that is what would be ineffective.

[stephenperera]

You're right, you will never understand what I mean unless i show you and again i'm not your teacher. I'm not going to pass knowledge to you.

I said originally that anyone just looking at this could see the flaws unless they didn't want to. Anyone else who watches this can read through the comments and decide for themselves.

[TomKagan]

If you can't see the "wrestling" inherent in the art known as TaiChi...

If you believe there is no skill in the sport of wresting (i.e.: it's all "size and strength")...

If you believe your skill of "redirecting force" can come from training with a partner who is no good at generating force ...

And you have no empirical proof to support your claims where a large body of evidence contradicts you ...

... then yes, people will decide for themselves based upon the comments posted here.

[stephenperera]

In Tai Chi U don't wrestle. Maybe i was flippant when talking about wrestling but i did clarify. Ever see a guy try to wrestle someone twice his size.

U are talking about what I believe. If people read this they will see what I said. Not what U said for me. Your arguments are incoherent.

The video shows that these people use force against force. The principle of Tai Chi is not to do this. A body of evidence supports this fact. If i wanted to show how it's done i would have posted a video.

[TomKagan]

>Ever see a guy try to wrestle someone twice his size.

Ever see a guy try to punch someone twice his size? What's your point?

The ideals embodied in principles are great to have. Howerver, the difference between theory and practice is greater in practice than it is in theory. People of equal skill struggle. The evidence supports this.

You claim a large body of evidence supports you, yet you don't show it. Does your evidence exist beyond staged demonstrations?

[stephenperera]

At least now you admit what i'm saying is true. What these people are doing is not what Tai Chi is supposed to be. That's it. I'm not here to teach you or show you how effective it can be. My point was they're not effective and i asked people to judge for themselves. If you say they are effective because it's not possible to be more effective, i cannot continue.

[TomKagan]

What Tai Chi is supposed to be is exactly what can be done. They are effective because they get the job done instead of taking the theory of what Tai Chi is supposed to be to new heights in mental masturbation.

If you can't DO IT, you are damn right it's not effective. They do it. Do you?

[stephenperera]

Ok, so this has gone past the point of being useful. If you are satisfied with this result after years of training and dedication, who am i to argue.

All the best

[stephenperera]

Seriously. If this is tai chi then tai chi is pointless. These guys are wrestling. Where is the skill in any of this. If any sane person, ie not completely brainwashed by spending lots of time learning something pointless, looks at this they see two guys who need no training what so ever to do this.

[TomKagan]

By saying "these guys are wrestling" and "where is the skill in any of this", do you mean to say there is no skill in wrestling?

[stephenperera]

One, wrestling is a sport. Two, It is completely dependent on size and strength. If you have techniques but they depend on you being bigger and stronger than your opponent what value do they hold? Three, it's really not that effective - based on size and strength - you can wrestle on and on for ages without a winner. I thought Tai Chi was supposed to be the most effective art.

[TomKagan]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying via inverse implication, that by not wrestling - i.e. punching and kicking - size and strength are not a factor. Is this correct?

[stephenperera]

So if i understand you correctly, by implication, you concur with both my previous comments that no training is required to do this? Redirecting force putting your opponent off balance without using force is very effective in a fight. That is what this exercise is for. Punching similarly is not based on force but your body weight. However, the technique is effective at light weights this is not

[TomKagan]

Huh? Only lightweights can do this? Could you clarify?

Notwithstanding your vagueness, "not using force" doesn't mean yield until your opponent gets the idea to start pitying you.

You must be well versed in both receiving and APPLYING great force to do what you suggest against anyone of skill. The skill of "redirecting force" to put "your opponent off balance" (i.e. the skill of WRESTLING) is an integral part of every effective martial art methdology. Tai Chi is no exception.

[stephenperera]

I can not be more specific in explaining how you create power with the number of characters allowed here and anyway i am not your teacher. I understand your skepticism. I hear people say things like 'not using force' and not be able to do it all regularly.

Redirecting force is what i am talking about. Not receiving it and then applying your own.

If you took two people with no training and told them the rules they would do what these people are doing, YES or NO?

[Team503]

There is no "most effective" art and there never will be. Wrestling is a submission match - it's designed to restrain your opponent. Push hands - which is NOT sparring - is simply a method of practicing techniques as taught in Tai Chi Chu'an.

[stephenperera]

Wrestling is a submission match - it's designed to restrain your opponent - I agree.

Push hands - which is NOT sparring - is simply a method of practicing techniques as taught in Tai Chi Chu'an. - I agree.

There is no "most effective" art and there never will be - I must humbly disagree.

[Team503]

Oh? Then is no single style dominant in any MMA league? Why have multiple styles persisted for milennia?

There is no SINGLE most effective art because each situation is different. A situation that is ideal for Muay Thai would be terrible for BJJ, and vice versa. And so on, and so forth. So unless you count "every style put together in one" as a style, then, no, there is no single best art.

[stephenperera]

If i tell you that the whole world doesn't understand how tai chi works and there are few if any true masters left or that it's a fighting art and can not be used in a sport for entertainment then you will say something else and we will go on and on like i have discovered you can on youtube. You will never see my point of view so maybe we should just agree to disagree. All the best SP

[TomKagan]

If, as you say "the whole world doesn't understand how tai chi works", how do you know you understand how it does?

[stephenperera]

When is said 'we will go on and on like i have discovered you can on youtube' i was talking about you

[TomKagan]

And when I ask what should be simple questions to answer, I was talking to you.

[stephenperera]

I have already spent a great deal of time answering your simple questions until we get to the stage you paint yourself into a corner and then you simply insult me. There is no point.

[TomKagan]

You've denigrated other competitors as saying they have no skill and shown you do not have the ability to answer simple questions. If disagreeing with you and you fail to show ANY SUPPORTING EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER is an considered an insult, it is possible you are afraid to be exposed.

[stephenperera]

You said:

The ideals embodied in principles are great to have. Howerver, the difference between theory and practice is greater in practice than it is in theory.

I said:

At least now you admit what i'm saying is true. What these people are doing is not what Tai Chi is supposed to be...If you say they are effective because it's not possible to be more effective, i cannot continue.

[stephenperera]

You said:

What Tai Chi is supposed to be is exactly what can be done. They are effective because they get the job done instead of taking the theory of what Tai Chi is supposed to be to new heights in mental masturbation.

I'd say that was fairly insulting.

You've got some nerve and are completely blinkered. They don't get the job done. It is possible to be more effective than these people.

[TomKagan]

Sure it's possible. But without actually trying, it's not probable. In fact, if the intent is to develop strong fighting ability, it would probably be a waste of time.

[stephenperera]

I don't want to be more explicit in how it's actually done. What i will say is it's not magic. It's readily explainable using the laws of physics and a knowledge of human physiology. It's also very simple. At least i got a reasonable reply from you so thanks for that.

[TomKagan]

All my replies have been reasonable, based on the statements you make.

You are right - it is not magic. You will suck at redirecting force if your partner sucks at applying force - a practitioner will be incapable of learning how to deal with force because reasonable PRACTICE will be missing. Thus, there will be NOTHING from which to draw when you attempt to do it.

Based on all your comments, I am skeptical you can do/explain/show it. Prove me wrong and I will reevaluate my opinion of you.

[LingKungJing]

Although the competitors shown in this video (both Chinese and American) seem to lack a good understanding of Tai Chi principles, since all they seem to do is greet yang with is yang rather than driving the oncoming force with yin, the judging system in America is obviously too strict because rather than allowing the true skill to come out on top in a natural way, they turn each fight into a Tai Chi lesson

[dynamiteduane]

Interesting stuff.