@Ignatzprimus This is the way Archbishops have been installed for centuries. Archbishop Dolan is not even slightly self-righteous and the Archdiocese of New York provides immense service to the people of NY through its schools and hospitals. It does Christ's work.
@hpd929 Yeah, schools that the Archbishop is now steadily closing down. That this is how Archbishops have always been installed for centuries is no argument for how it should be done today. It's not a doctrinal matter just bread and circuses for the plebs. He who exalts himself shall be humbled. Evidently the archbishop didn't get the memo.
@PInk77W1 Balderdash. Jesus came to serve not to be served. He did not give us detailed instructions about how his church was to be organized, but he is very clear on how authority is to be exercised within it. He explicitly told his followers that they were NOT to exercise authority by wearing fancy clothes, having places of honour in church and at banquets, and having their egos massaged by being addressed by obsequious titles. It's all there in Matthew 23 - the only memo any of us need.
@Ignatzprimus u were right once.. he did not give us detailed instructions about how his church is to be organized... then u went off course.. since he didnt leave detailed instructions, then the apostles and their successors decide, not u. This bishop is not wearing fancy clothes. he is wearing vestments. When a bishop wears vestments its no longer about him, but about HIM as in Jesus, again u miss that. its called
@PInk77W1 Can't you read for comprehension? I didn't say anything about how the church was to be organized: I said that Jesus is very clear about how authority is to be exercised within the Church. And it isn't with fancy clothes (I wasn't referring specifically to vestments), fancy titles and self-serving honours. As for persona Christi - theologically that only refers to a priest (or bishop) administering a sacrament. The wearing of vestments is irrelevant to the administration of a sacrament.
@Ignatzprimus fancy clothes has NOTHING to do with exercising authority in the church. i didnt say u said anything about how the church was to be organized. in fact i was agreeing with you. to be honest with you, i dont know where u r coming from.
@PInk77W1 And you clearly cannot tell the difference between how the Church is organized (something about which Jesus said next to nothing), and how those with authority within the Church (e.g. bishops) behave, something about which Jesus had a lot to say, Matthew 23. At least you understand Jesus' words that fancy clothes should have nothing to do with the exercise of authority within the Church. Neither should obsequious titles and high social status. Now if only the hierarchy got it, too.
@Ignatzprimus When you only have one pope in the world, u pretty much have high social status. Especially since the pope is in charge of a 2000yr old church, the oldest organization on EARTH. I think what has got u upset is u dont have a say in how the church is run, how the bishops are dressed, how bishops are addressed or how the church is organized. I think i will side with St Francis over u on this one. Weather the hierarchy "gets it" or not, is not part of "the deposit of faith"
@PInk77W1 If Jesus' words were taken seriously, the pope, exercising the highest authority, would have the lowest social status and the highest level of accessibility and availability. 'Having a say' in Church organisation doesn't interest me. But Jesus has already spoken about how those in authority should dress, be addressed and behave. Yet his teaching has been scandalously ignored throughout church history. So, I'll side with Jesus over any pope, any saint and even you.
@Ignatzprimus Your right the pope doesnt take Jesus words seriously.... lets see, gave up marriage for Jesus words, has dedicated his whole life to Jesus words, written about 40 books about Jesus words, yeah your right he doesnt take Jesus words sersiously... FAIL.... "the pope would have the lowest social status.... u do understand that many many popes have been killed right? cant get much lower social status than that.
Jesus said to go to the church. Jesus said his church would not fail
@PInk77W1 Have you a problem with comprehension or are you being deliberately obtuse? The words of Jesus that the hierarchy most definitely do NOT take seriously are those in Matthew 23, the words under discussion in this thread. How exactly is being killed related to social status?? Look, if you've no answer to my arguments just say so and stop embarrassing yourself. Better yet, take a course - Apologetics 101 or Catholicism 101. Improve your exceptionally rudimentary knowledge of your faith.
@Ignatzprimus my only problem is your opinion, in fact you seem to vault your opinion above that of the magisterium. But this is nothing new in the history of the church. If u think u have a new idea, go look at how the greeks did it. Trust me, u dont have a new idea. You will not school the church or the pope or me for that matter. Holy Mother Church is awesome beyond all words, and u r upset at how the pope dresses? We've heard it all before.
@PInk77W1 You already said that this issue was not a matter of faith or doctrine so how can it be in conflict with the magisterium? And why should how the Greeks did anything take precedence over the clear teaching of Jesus himself? Your ignorance of Church history and dysfunctionality is really fairly abysmal if you do not know how all these fancy clothes, fancy titles and carrying on like princelings evolved - and in contradiction of the Lord's teaching, repeated by saints down the centuries.
@Ignatzprimus my point is your opinion doesnt equal the magisterium. I never said the greeks should take precedence over the teaching of Jesus. I guess that went right over your head too. Last i checked a new bishops wardrobe cost about $3000, Hollywood stars leave bigger tips. Political elites pay more for a lady of the nite. So i think you are way out of your league. Since rome is sooo wrong. You mite want to start your own church and c how far u get.
@PInk77W1 The only one out of their league here is you. It is a seriously sinful to suggest to another Catholic that they apostatize from the Catholic faith. You might want to add that to your list when you fulfil your Easter duty. But don't worry, you can always plead invincible ignorance. Anyone who has had even the briefest of exchanges with you, won't doubt you.
@Ignatzprimus i didnt know you were a catholic? you sure could of fooled me. I still have no idea what your beef is, nor do i ever hope to learn what your beef is. Catholicism is awesome, but u r all grumpy and smack
@PInk77W1 Well, let's see: I wrote about priests acting in persona Christi, Church history, Church doctrine, the administration of sacraments, the function of vestments, the exercise of authority within the Church, the magisterium, saints, Archbishop Dolan's closure of Catholic schools in the archdiocese of New York - the clues were there, only your ability to read for comprehension was missing.
@Ignatzprimus i read the clues just fine.... u miss the point that the catholic church is a world institution and many non catholics comment on it. Truth be told, the reason i made the comment about starting your own church was to see if you were catholic, and it worked. I use to listen to a guy on the radio for years bash the catholic church. I thought, how can this anti catholic b so smart. He admitted one day he was an ex priest.
@Ignatzprimus do u understand that if u contact the bishop of boston and ask for an official photo..... he will be wearing sandals? yep that is some fancy shoes u got there......i seriously didnt know u were catholic.
@PInk77W1 Boston is an archdiocese and its archbishop is a Franciscan - sandals would not be a surprising thing for him to wear. I met AB O'Malley recently in Dublin' Pro-Cathedral at a Liturgy of Lament and Repentance for clerical abuse survivors and their families. During the liturgy, neither he nor his Dublin counterpart wore any vestments nor were they dressed as archbishops. AB O'Malley wore his Franciscan habit (no sandals but it was cold), and AB Martin wore a simple black soutane.
Comment removed
massimofortissimo 10 months ago
Come on...let the Kilgen organ ROAR!!
Organsk8er 1 year ago
@Ignatzprimus This is the way Archbishops have been installed for centuries. Archbishop Dolan is not even slightly self-righteous and the Archdiocese of New York provides immense service to the people of NY through its schools and hospitals. It does Christ's work.
hpd929 1 year ago 3
@hpd929 Yeah, schools that the Archbishop is now steadily closing down. That this is how Archbishops have always been installed for centuries is no argument for how it should be done today. It's not a doctrinal matter just bread and circuses for the plebs. He who exalts himself shall be humbled. Evidently the archbishop didn't get the memo.
Ignatzprimus 1 year ago
@Ignatzprimus he is not exalting himself, he is exalting Jesus Christ, i guess u didnt get that memo.
Pope ST Pius X said "if i didnt know all this pomp and ceremony were for Jesus, i would never let it stand."
PInk77W1 11 months ago
Comment removed
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 Balderdash. Jesus came to serve not to be served. He did not give us detailed instructions about how his church was to be organized, but he is very clear on how authority is to be exercised within it. He explicitly told his followers that they were NOT to exercise authority by wearing fancy clothes, having places of honour in church and at banquets, and having their egos massaged by being addressed by obsequious titles. It's all there in Matthew 23 - the only memo any of us need.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus u were right once.. he did not give us detailed instructions about how his church is to be organized... then u went off course.. since he didnt leave detailed instructions, then the apostles and their successors decide, not u. This bishop is not wearing fancy clothes. he is wearing vestments. When a bishop wears vestments its no longer about him, but about HIM as in Jesus, again u miss that. its called
PERSONA CHRISTI
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 Can't you read for comprehension? I didn't say anything about how the church was to be organized: I said that Jesus is very clear about how authority is to be exercised within the Church. And it isn't with fancy clothes (I wasn't referring specifically to vestments), fancy titles and self-serving honours. As for persona Christi - theologically that only refers to a priest (or bishop) administering a sacrament. The wearing of vestments is irrelevant to the administration of a sacrament.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus fancy clothes has NOTHING to do with exercising authority in the church. i didnt say u said anything about how the church was to be organized. in fact i was agreeing with you. to be honest with you, i dont know where u r coming from.
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 And you clearly cannot tell the difference between how the Church is organized (something about which Jesus said next to nothing), and how those with authority within the Church (e.g. bishops) behave, something about which Jesus had a lot to say, Matthew 23. At least you understand Jesus' words that fancy clothes should have nothing to do with the exercise of authority within the Church. Neither should obsequious titles and high social status. Now if only the hierarchy got it, too.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus When you only have one pope in the world, u pretty much have high social status. Especially since the pope is in charge of a 2000yr old church, the oldest organization on EARTH. I think what has got u upset is u dont have a say in how the church is run, how the bishops are dressed, how bishops are addressed or how the church is organized. I think i will side with St Francis over u on this one. Weather the hierarchy "gets it" or not, is not part of "the deposit of faith"
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 If Jesus' words were taken seriously, the pope, exercising the highest authority, would have the lowest social status and the highest level of accessibility and availability. 'Having a say' in Church organisation doesn't interest me. But Jesus has already spoken about how those in authority should dress, be addressed and behave. Yet his teaching has been scandalously ignored throughout church history. So, I'll side with Jesus over any pope, any saint and even you.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus Your right the pope doesnt take Jesus words seriously.... lets see, gave up marriage for Jesus words, has dedicated his whole life to Jesus words, written about 40 books about Jesus words, yeah your right he doesnt take Jesus words sersiously... FAIL.... "the pope would have the lowest social status.... u do understand that many many popes have been killed right? cant get much lower social status than that.
Jesus said to go to the church. Jesus said his church would not fail
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 Have you a problem with comprehension or are you being deliberately obtuse? The words of Jesus that the hierarchy most definitely do NOT take seriously are those in Matthew 23, the words under discussion in this thread. How exactly is being killed related to social status?? Look, if you've no answer to my arguments just say so and stop embarrassing yourself. Better yet, take a course - Apologetics 101 or Catholicism 101. Improve your exceptionally rudimentary knowledge of your faith.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus my only problem is your opinion, in fact you seem to vault your opinion above that of the magisterium. But this is nothing new in the history of the church. If u think u have a new idea, go look at how the greeks did it. Trust me, u dont have a new idea. You will not school the church or the pope or me for that matter. Holy Mother Church is awesome beyond all words, and u r upset at how the pope dresses? We've heard it all before.
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 You already said that this issue was not a matter of faith or doctrine so how can it be in conflict with the magisterium? And why should how the Greeks did anything take precedence over the clear teaching of Jesus himself? Your ignorance of Church history and dysfunctionality is really fairly abysmal if you do not know how all these fancy clothes, fancy titles and carrying on like princelings evolved - and in contradiction of the Lord's teaching, repeated by saints down the centuries.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus my point is your opinion doesnt equal the magisterium. I never said the greeks should take precedence over the teaching of Jesus. I guess that went right over your head too. Last i checked a new bishops wardrobe cost about $3000, Hollywood stars leave bigger tips. Political elites pay more for a lady of the nite. So i think you are way out of your league. Since rome is sooo wrong. You mite want to start your own church and c how far u get.
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 The only one out of their league here is you. It is a seriously sinful to suggest to another Catholic that they apostatize from the Catholic faith. You might want to add that to your list when you fulfil your Easter duty. But don't worry, you can always plead invincible ignorance. Anyone who has had even the briefest of exchanges with you, won't doubt you.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus i didnt know you were a catholic? you sure could of fooled me. I still have no idea what your beef is, nor do i ever hope to learn what your beef is. Catholicism is awesome, but u r all grumpy and smack
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 Well, let's see: I wrote about priests acting in persona Christi, Church history, Church doctrine, the administration of sacraments, the function of vestments, the exercise of authority within the Church, the magisterium, saints, Archbishop Dolan's closure of Catholic schools in the archdiocese of New York - the clues were there, only your ability to read for comprehension was missing.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus i read the clues just fine.... u miss the point that the catholic church is a world institution and many non catholics comment on it. Truth be told, the reason i made the comment about starting your own church was to see if you were catholic, and it worked. I use to listen to a guy on the radio for years bash the catholic church. I thought, how can this anti catholic b so smart. He admitted one day he was an ex priest.
many anti catholics are very smart too.
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 As I said, invincible ignorance is a great defence for you.....
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus i am not ignorant now...... nice try.... keep trying
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 You could have fooled me - or, as you might say yourself, 'you could of fooled me'.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus i think invincible ignorance is more important than youtube debates, but u mite disagree
PInk77W1 11 months ago
Comment removed
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 Invincibly ignorant about invincible ignorance - there's a first.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
@Ignatzprimus do u understand that if u contact the bishop of boston and ask for an official photo..... he will be wearing sandals? yep that is some fancy shoes u got there......i seriously didnt know u were catholic.
PInk77W1 11 months ago
@PInk77W1 Boston is an archdiocese and its archbishop is a Franciscan - sandals would not be a surprising thing for him to wear. I met AB O'Malley recently in Dublin' Pro-Cathedral at a Liturgy of Lament and Repentance for clerical abuse survivors and their families. During the liturgy, neither he nor his Dublin counterpart wore any vestments nor were they dressed as archbishops. AB O'Malley wore his Franciscan habit (no sandals but it was cold), and AB Martin wore a simple black soutane.
Ignatzprimus 11 months ago
What a warm person, Archbishop Dolan is!
RedRedOC 1 year ago 5
What is the title of the entrance hymn?
GIONELLIO 2 years ago
@GIONELLIO: "Jesus Christ is Risen Today"
SanLewy 2 years ago