AA Alcoholics Anonymous - Deadly? part 2 http://missbruksportalen.blogspot.com/

[deadmanswife2]

call me for drinks

not after you've already satisfied yourself and are now in trouble

[deadmanswife2]

can't be success if after how many years and still can't function around the rest of us selfish CHARACTORs

[deadmanswife2]

they never call you when they want to do something social like eat

They call when they've finished and ...

[deadmanswife2]

Aa is a fraud

Inbred group

[my12steptruth]

It is an UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH that human beings need more nutrients and vitamins than are found in most of our food nowadays since it is grown in land sucked dry of minerals and vitamins and YES we NEED a community and a reminder of SOMETHING GREATER than our little egotistical need to be righteous and important. That's why the pyramids and other great ancient structures have lasted. They were built with and for spiritual needs the modern world ignores.

[tami4497]

Thank you AA for 6 yrs of sobriety and 6 yrs of sober motherhood. My little girls were 2 and 4 when I got sober. Thank God they haven't had to be raised with a drunk mom the way my older 2 did. I knew I would die drinking-just like my grandmother. Never in my life did I think I'd be able to stay sober. Thank God for AA. I've been given a new life. I found God through the 12 steps. How absolutely amazing. There's no high like the Most High. Yes-I mean Jesus- bet that makes you mad too!

[somethingdiffereable]

If it looks like a cult, acts like a cult and has all the indicators of being a cult. It might be a cult

[ricgomez1]

These fools dont know anything about addiction; Listen good doctor, Here's a test for you; Go smoke some CRACK everyday for three months straight, then try to stop. we'll see what kinda Choices your making then. You won't do that because you already know what the outcome will be. YOU"LL be having any everything MUST go sale in order to get more CRACK and your job..well, thats taking up to much of your smoking time, so thats gatta go. Does that sound like something we do by choice?

[ndrthrdr1]

@ricgomez1 People do decide to quit crack on their own and succeed. People choose to sell their stuff and steal other people's stuff because they decide to do so in order to avoid getting clean and facing reality. When quitting is finally less painful than continuing their drug use, they quit. Behavioral choices, not disease. The "powerlessness" is nonexistent and belief in it is delusional.

[pianoscotskenny]

First,i hope youre well. We've already talked on this subject at length on "other pages" on you-tube. My comment makes no reference to AA empirically defining physiological characteristics.it doesnt "seem" to be an appropriate reply to my comment "here".i was surprised to see your non "scientific comments" that appear on many other pages eg..swastikas..the "i pooed my pants" on 1 page & many such others.i thought your scientific "integrity" was real & i said so.Perhaps youve made it questionable

[pianoscotskenny]

Differences regarding moderate drinkers, hard drinkers & alcoholics are well addressed in AAs message.The BB chapter 2 & 3 "There is a solution" & "More about alcoholism" discusses these "types"& also whether the alcoholic retains, or has lost, "the power of choice in drinking".Dr Lance appears more in tune here."The main problem of the alcoholic centres in the mind "rather" than in the body.BB.p23.The AA programe does not discuss on ANY issues regarding genetics and/or issues of brain chemicals

[Hammersley1967]

@pianoscotskenny

"Differences regarding moderate drinkers, hard drinkers & alcoholics are well addressed in AAs message"

They are discussed but, as with everything in the AA texts, they are neither defined nor empirically characterised.

There is no physiological characteristic that distinguishes alcoholism. Eminent biostatisticians have failed to distinguish and define "alcoholism" from other patterns of drinking.

All that is known is that there is a spectrum of alcohol consumption patterns.

[sidecrank]

If AA works why is this man knocking AA. I saves many people's lives. Is he selling some thing or just professionaly jealous

[quickcap]

@TheSlydawg11 - are you an alcoholic? What do you expect from a sponsor? I'm always willing to help another alkie. Let me know if I can help

[mmlight]

I agree with this 100%, but AA has helped many drunks for years. If it could be updated, great, but it still works for many.

[ricgomez1]

@mmlight statistics say the odds are against us, but where does one turn when willpower doesnt work? thank God there is help, at first I didnt believe it, but things got better and the very same person who stole innoccent peoples things for money to get dope, lost the craving for drugs because of this help. Dont spit hairs, is it a disease? who cares, its a malfunction in the brain and there is HELP. The police have one less person to worry about.( 2 1/2 clean and still going)

[bway86]

How long ago was this filmed? Like, seriously, is this dude for real? Are all of you people that believe this for real?

[msk7046]

Why don't you start by looking up the definition of the word DISEASE is any, reliable dictionary.

After you've done that, get back to me.

THIS video may be DEADLY to the MANY who believe in AA.

My personal beliefs do NOT matter to anyone but me. Don't try to PUSH YOUR way of thinking on others.

[jonesgerard]

Think about how nutty this "professor" sounds,

"Addiction is a choice".

bwahahaha, if its a choice its not addiction.

One thing everyone is missing , AA does NOT call alcoholism a disease.

Its called a malady or spiritual disease.

Google "Phineas Gage", he suffered from spiritual disease due to severe brain damage after an accident.

He got a steel spike through his skull and immediately became caustic and abrasive, kinda like AA haters eh?

Spiritual disease isn't limited to alkies.

[Hammersley1967]

@jonesgerard

"Spiritual disease isn't limited to alkies."

Phineas Gage suffered massive destruction of brain tissue in his cerebral cortex due to the trauma inflicted by a tamping iron. The catastrophic effect of the trauma to his brain detrimentally effected his emotional control and decision making.

His problem was ENTIRELY biological (neurological) and NOT spiritual.

Please elaborate on the scientific evidence for this "spiritual disease" that alcoholics supposedly suffer from?

[prschuster]

The disease of addiction is a tempoary chemically induced disease. That means it manifests itself only when you drink or do drugs. It's like being lactose intolerant. It goes away when you stop using and it doesn't reappear unless you voluntarily start up the habit again. But we all know that the disease model goes beyond that bit of common sense and deems addiction to be a mental disorder which never abates. That's the big lie which feeds the recovery industry.

[grndgg]

Is "Full of s**t a disease?? this guy would know

[artdietrich]

AA an XA are criminal organisations responsible for many suicides - fuck them... NO - KILL THEM

[prschuster]

It's funny how I can give a nuanced analysis about the element of choice along with real disease processes associated with addiction, yet there are still those who like to use simple one line responses and ignore half of what I say. I didn't realize it was so hard to wrap your brain around subtle nuanced explanations.

[isegoria1]

I see the intellectually dishonest have arrived to vote bot this video. Vot botting says volumes of their character.

Moral high ground = FAIL

[CapoStudios]

All I am saying is that choice becomes irrelevant once the dis-ease of alcoholism is only treated by consuming alcohol. I don't rely on wiki, however, I know that alcoholism is considered a disease in the US. Right or wrong, alcoholism is classified as a disease in the United States, and to say that an individual has choice when his/her body/mind/"spirit" depends on alcohol, the question of choice becomes rather lost in mindless obsession and self destruction.

[CapoStudios]

An addiction may be a behavior, but when alcoholic, it becomes an involuntary act coupled with an obsession. You can say schizophrenia is behavioral too in terms of describing a schizophrenic condition, as with an alcoholic condition, but you cannot call the condition itself a behavior, be it conscious or subconscious. Hangovers are symptoms of acute ethanol withdrawals. That's what we were taught in school as kids, and what still remains in the definitions of hangovers/withdrawals.

[prschuster]

"An addiction may be a behavior, but when alcoholic, it becomes an involuntary act coupled with an obsession." CapoStudios

This is why I keep saying that addiction involves both a choice and disease but is not totally one or the other. You lose your volition only when you've already had a few and your brain is swimming in alcohol.

[CapoStudios]

Regardless, we live in the USA. I doubt that the only intention to classifying alcoholism as a disease was to pay the insurance companies. When someone is dying of chronic alcoholism you can't take out the "well he has a choice" question... it doesn't benefit anyone with this type of high flown fancy- wine is supposed to be good to prevent against certain types of cancer, but I doubt a doctor would suggest it...

[Hammersley1967]

"Regardless, we live in the USA. I doubt that the only intention to classifying alcoholism as a disease was to pay the insurance companies."

I agree with you absolutely!

As Gary Greenburg (2008) says, its a "Noble Lie" (that's the name of the book) promulgated by the (American) medical profession in order to help people...

[prschuster]

" I doubt that the only intention to classifying alcoholism as a disease was to pay the insurance companies."

It may also be a "Noble Lie" in order to help people, as you say; and then it may have another function altogether. The disease model has been promoted so shamelessly by NCADD & ASAM that I suspect it was meant to assuage the guilt caused by of the moral stigma attached to drunkeness. It's as if they're saying: "It's not my fault; I have a disease.".

[Hammersley1967]

Yes, absolutely...

[prschuster]

I chose to drink because it felt good and it took my mind off all my problems. I became an alcoholic when I could no longer control my drinking. Then I quit after much equivocation because I chose to live a more manageable life. I've made choices, both good & bad. Some choices were easy - others difficult; but I did make choices.

[CapoStudios]

I argue the disease theory based on the breaking down of the word DISEASE. It doesn't take a medical association to deem one or the other. Your argument would make your existence a "noble lie." No, treatment is mostly available to those who can afford treatment either through profession or monetary status. It should be an asset to get sober, not a liability. I'm not sure how accountants register it in the books... Most of the homeless don't even know about the disease theory to begin with!!!!!!!

[Hammersley1967]

"I argue the disease theory based on the breaking down of the word DISEASE. It doesn't take a medical association to deem one or the other. Your argument would make your existence a 'noble lie.'"

Complete non sequitur.

Makes no sense what soever...

Disease is a specific medical term. Alcoholism does not meet the medical diagnostic criteria to qualify as a disease.

BTW: How does my argument make my EXISTENCE "noble lie"?

[CapoStudios]

I'm an alcoholic, when I have no drugs or alcohol in my system (unless I'm spiritually fulfilled,) I'm irritable and discontent. I'm at dis-ease. That makes perfect sense. In terms of your existence being a noble lie; I'm not referring to Kant and the supposed right to lie for philanthropic reasons here either. Mankind is the root of all evil- do you not agree? Or do you blame the devil? Your entire morality is based on some sort of principled approach, is it not? Then this would also be a lie.

[CapoStudios]

In continuing. You are being lied to from every which direction and your human mind is responsible for dissecting that information in order to make it true in your own reality. Just because you believe it, doesn't mean it's true. You might consider it noble in contrary, but it is still a lie unless you disclaim ownership of it as Bill W did with Alcoholics Anonymous. If a noble truth is pain and suffering, what would you consider a noble lie? Joy and happiness? It seems that is what you argue.

[Hammersley1967]

"If a noble truth is pain and suffering, what would you consider a noble lie? Joy and happiness? It seems that is what you argue"

No.

The "Noble Lie" that I speak of is a phenomenon articulated by Gary Greenburg in a book by the same name. It speaks of physicians throughout history constructing untruths in order to help people. They know alcoholism is not a disease in any way, shape or form - but tell the lie that it is anyway for "noble" reasons.

This is what makes the lie they tell noble.

[Hammersley1967]

"I'm an alcoholic, when I have no drugs or alcohol in my system (unless I'm spiritually fulfilled,) I'm irritable and discontent. That makes perfect sense."

Makes metaphorical "sense" (well... sort of) but it DOESN'T make medical or semantic sense AT ALL.

Furthermore, then why use the word "disease" at all? Why not just say that you "feel a bit edgy without a buzz on"?

If this IS what you mean, then using the word "disease" is a bit misleading wouldn't you agree?

[CapoStudios]

misleading to who? You? I don't work for you, I work for myself. If I want to call it a disease, who's stopping me legally? It's completely valid, and actually makes a lot of sense. Dude, I was was just feeling a bit edgy, I sure as BLEEP wouldn't need to conform to spiritual principles to feel better, I'd go walk it off. My condition requires treatment- something I find in AA. I can't make excuses for being an alcoholic- that just doesn't cut it in the real world and doesn't give you disability

[CapoStudios]

so I don't understand why you are arguing something that is already true? I've never heard of anyone collecting workmans compensation, or disability because of alcoholism. Have you? However, the disease concept makes sense in treating alcoholism. If just treatment alone worked for everyone, it would be curable. Like with HIV, it can only be arrested. And, unfortunately, most alcoholics end up drinking again. Many do pursue it into the gates of insanity or even death.

[Hammersley1967]

Prove to me that it fits the diagnostic criteria of "disease" as stipulated in the Stedman's Medical Dictionary.

"the disease concept makes sense in treating alcoholism."

There's nothing to "treat" as its not a disease. Your HIV analogy is ridiculous. HIV is an infectious disease - alcoholism is an aberrant behaviour.

[CapoStudios]

The doctor may be able to treat alcoholism by diagnosing a patient with alcoholism, in the same way a doctor may diagnose a patient with Alzheimers, depression... Alcoholism is also accompanied by liver failure and mental problems, so alcoholism has physical repercussions which need to be treated. I wasn't comparing alcoholism to HIV in the sense of it being a viral disease, I was referring to medical or non medical treatment of HIV in relation to alcholism. There is very little that can be done

[Hammersley1967]

(I)

"The doctor may be able to treat alcoholism by diagnosing a patient with alcoholism, in the same way a doctor may diagnose a patient with Alzheimers, depression"

Doctors DO NOT "diagnose patients with alcoholism in the same way they a doctor may diagnose a patient with Alzheimer's or depression" because there is NO physiological disease entity as there is with Alzheimer's (characterised by loss of neurons and synapses in the cerebral cortex and certain subcortical regions)...

[Hammersley1967]

(II)

...or depression (deficiency in serotonin and noradrenalin in the cerebrospinal fluid).

In short, there is no physiological etiology and no somatic entity - the two criteria needed for a condition to be medically diagnosed as a "disease"...

That's it.

[CapoStudios]

where are you going with this this? You dissect everything I state, but don't propose anything, nor do you seem to understand what it is I'm trying to convey. No, OBVIOUSLY Alzheimer's ISN'T Alcoholism, so obviously the doctor won't diagnose it in the same way... God you're slow... You're problems isn't alcoholism, it seems as though you were dropped as a baby...

[Hammersley1967]

2)

[b]

"Alcoholism is also accompanied by liver failure and mental problems, so alcoholism has physical repercussions which need to be treated."

Bullshit! Is this supposed to qualify alcoholism as a disease? Liver failure and mental problems are diseases/syndromes in and of themselves. They are not symptoms of a disease called "alcoholism".

NOTHING you say in support of alcoholism being a disease holds water.

Alcoholism isn't a disease that can be diagnosed "in the same way" as Alzheimer's

[Hammersley1967]

3)

"I wasn't comparing alcoholism to HIV in the sense of it being a viral disease, I was referring to medical or non medical treatment of HIV in relation to alcholism. There is very little that can be done."

WTF?

Do you EVER reread your comments?

Do you even gather your thoughts before tapping on the key board?

Check the spelling?

[godlessweasel]

Did capo REALLY say that, or did both you and I imagine it?! What planet are these people on!??

[Hammersley1967]

I know...

[godlessweasel]

I seem to meet an awful lot of peeps with HIV and alcoholism who are just dandy! I think capo is a WEENIE for making these CLAIMS...

[jonesgerard]

@Hammersley1967

"Liver failure and mental problems are diseases/syndromes in and of themselves. They are not symptoms of a disease called "alcoholism".

Really, cirrosis isn't related to alcohol?

Thats news.

I'm not saying alcoholism is a disease because it isn't but if it causes cancer....its not good either.

[Hammersley1967]

@jonesgerard

"Really, cirrosis isn't related to alcohol?"

You obviously know less than nothing about epidemiology. CIRRHOSIS is a degenerative hepatic disease that can POSSIBLY be CAUSED by ethanol abuse... (It can also be caused by the hepatitis virus.)

Thus, cirrhosis is a DISEASE in its OWN right that's etiology can possibly be chronic alcohol abuse. It is NOT - repeat NOT - a symptom of a disease called "alcoholism", and it is certainly not CAUSAL of alcoholism...

So what's your point?

[Hammersley1967]

@jonesgerard

":Really, cirrosis isn't related to alcohol?"

Who said "cirrhosis is not related to alcohol"?

Not me...

[Hammersley1967]

"misleading to who? You? I don't work for you, I work for myself. If I want to call it a disease, who's stopping me legally?"

Don't be silly Capo...

"It's completely valid, and actually makes a lot of sense."

Nope, it's not MEDICALLY valid or even SEMANTICALLY valid...

Go look the term "disease" up in a dictionary - preferably a medical one!

[Hammersley1967]

"In terms of your existence being a noble lie; I'm not referring to Kant and the supposed right to lie for philanthropic reasons here either."

Kant NEVER proposed a "right to lie for philanthropic reasons".

The Categorical Imperative was absolute...

[CapoStudios]

Ok, I see that I'm completely wasting my time here... Dude, go back to school....

[Hammersley1967]

Try expressing yourself a bit better and get an education - period...

[Hammersley1967]

"In terms of your existence being a noble lie; I'm not referring to Kant and the supposed right to lie for philanthropic reasons here either. Mankind is the root of all evil- do you not agree? Or do you blame the devil? Your entire morality is based on some sort of principled approach, is it not? Then this would also be a lie"

I really don't understand what you are trying to express here...

[Hammersley1967]

"Your entire morality is based on some sort of principled approach, is it not?"

No...

Whatever gave you that idea?

[Hammersley1967]

"wine is supposed to be good to prevent against certain types of cancer, but I doubt a doctor would suggest it..."

You are right AND wrong. Red wine IS a rich source of anti-oxidants and as such combats the free radicals that can be carcinogenous.

However, it is common place for doctors to advise the imbibing of red wine (to non alcoholic patients of course) - not only for the prevention of cancer but also the health risks related to stress as well as heart disease prevention...

[CapoStudios]

That would be the American Medical Association.

[Hammersley1967]

The AMA is the ONLY professional medical association IN THE WORLD that defines alcoholism as a disease...

Ever wonder why?

Referring people to rehabs maybe?

None of the medical medical associations ANYWHERE else in the world ascribe to the notion that alcoholism is a disease.

Ditto the WORLD HEALTH AUTHORITY and the DSM IV.

[CapoStudios]

Wikipedia- Since you seem incapable of being able to provide yourself with accurate information.

"The AMA endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice."

[Hammersley1967]

Wikipedia?

Pffft!

Do you understand how Wikipedia works?

ANYONE can write ANYTHING on the silly cyber-rage and it will stand as fact until someone comes along and scrubs it off and writes there own rhetoric on it...

[Hammersley1967]

"Since you seem incapable of being able to provide yourself with accurate information."

Capo, it is now quite evident that I can provide myself with accurate information as is evidenced with my citation of credentialed scholarly research.

You, on the other hand, take refuge in more questionable sources or fail to provide any evidence to support your claims at all...

I am merely asking you to support your assertions with evidence...

[CapoStudios]

No, I beg to differ. Choice has nothing to do with the phenomenon of craving. It is an obsession of the mind, allergy of the body, and as Karl Jung would argue a malady of the soul in which only a spiritual experience can conquer. Spiritus contra spiritum. Dr. Jeffery A Shaler, BA Psychology, Assistant Professor from the ages of chalkboards and watered sponges- Don't believe this garbarge, it's propaganda... seriously, talk about taking refuge in questionable sources!!!!! JUNK!

[Hammersley1967]

"Choice has nothing to do with the phenomenon of craving."

Agreed, but do you know why?

"It is an obsession of the mind, allergy of the body, and as Karl Jung would argue a malady of the soul in which only a spiritual experience can conquer."

As I said CapoStudios, you "fail to provide any evidence to support your claims at all".

You don't back your claims with evidence or even reason. You just don't...

BTW: Have you actually read ANYTHING that Schaler has published? Didn't think so...

[CapoStudios]

No, Shaler buries himself in this video... I could go in a lengthy philosophical conviction about a phenomenon, but that would be as pointless as describing God. It's a matter of perception. However, I'd rather draw knowledge from experience, rather than scholarly theories from the early 80's. If this were true, alcoholism wouldn't be as deadly and destructive as it is. In many ways an alcoholic will choose to fill his car with gas, in the same way as he will drink alc., he's dependent.

[CapoStudios]

It would be a choice not to use the car and to find alternative forms of transportation, but an alcoholic still needs alcohol between getting from A to B and will need a lot of help in choosing to not drink, many times failing, without provocation, choosing to give up his car, family, and house all-together in order to keep drinking. As for Spiritus contra Spiritum, look at letters written between Bill Wison and Karl Jung, and also Jungian literature. The evidence is there, good luck w/ reason;

[Hammersley1967]

"look at letters written between Bill Wison and Karl Jung, and also Jungian literature. The evidence is there, good luck w/ reason"

Rubbish!

The correspondence between Wilson and Jung was in 1961. 22 years after the steps and big book were written and the disease concept was initially promoted by AA.

Wilson's correspondence was no more than a retrospective fraud in order to gain some psychoanalytic credibility.

In any case, how is correspondence between two fellas evidence for anything?

[CapoStudios]

are you seriously expecting me to prove the existence of God through the substitute of alcoholic insanity for a spiritual experience? Well, you'd have to meet me in person then!

[Hammersley1967]

"No, Shaler buries himself in this video"

How so?

(BTW Capo, it's SCHALER not SHALER)

"In many ways an alcoholic will choose to fill his car with gas, in the same way as he will drink alc., he's dependent."

I really don't think that that analogy stand up to scrutiny...

A car is looking for a euphoric psychoemotional effect from the gas is it?

I see... I always wondered why it "choked" and "spluttered" when it runs out...

Silly stuff!!!

[prschuster]

"Suicide is a classified disease..."

...CapoStudios

Suicide is no more a disease than pooping your pants. It is a behavior just like bending your elbow with a drink in hand.

[CapoStudios]

whether you want to believe it or not- go look up registered and approved diseases. And argue with the doc's instead of blowing poop out your blowhole.

[Hammersley1967]

"whether you want to believe it or not- go look up registered and approved diseases. And argue with the doc's instead of blowing poop out your blowhole."

What register? Who's register? When?

You "look it up".

Provide a reference to your claims...

BTW: The World Health Authority discarded the notion of alcoholism as a disease in 1962.

Moreover, the DSM IV does not categorise "alcohol dependency" as a "disease" but rather a "disorder".

I look forward to you providing that reference...

[prschuster]

Be nice now... no need for potty talk.

[CapoStudios]

seriously, this guy is a teacher? Sure the act of drinking is behavioral, but to say that alcohol has no physical repercussions that lead you to want to drink more is BS. A hangover is essentially your body telling you that you need more alcohol. When someone has over-indulged in alcohol for years the body becomes dependent while the mind says drink more. BTW a disease in its true form means to be at DIS-ease aka. "not at ease."

[Hammersley1967]

"A hangover is essentially your body telling you that you need more alcohol."

Ummmm...

Ya wanna run that by me again?

"a disease in its true form means to be at DIS-ease aka. 'not at ease'. "

Ummmm...

Ditto!

[CapoStudios]

what's Ummmmm... ? A sort of " I know most things better than most people kind of Ummmm...?" Sarcasm is a sign of low intelligence and ignorance, why don't you try speaking english?

"You wanna run that by me again?"

What am I like your accountant or some shit?

A hangover is your body telling you that you need more alcohol. Why don't run that by yourself again.

[Hammersley1967]

[1]

"A hangover is your body telling you that you need more alcohol. Why don't run that by yourself again."

I ran that by myself again and it is still absolutely incorrect and ridiculous...

"What am I like your accountant or some shit?"

I don't know whether you're an accountant or not but you certainly possess a VACUUM of medical knowledge...

[Hammersley1967]

[2]

A "hangover" is primarily physical dehydration (marked by nausea, thirst, headache, lethargy, etc) caused by acute ethanol intoxication. A secondary contributing factor are the toxic byproducts created from the breakdown of ethanol via liver enzymes causing acetaldehyde intoxication and vitamin B12 deficiency.

(See: Max H Pittler, et al "Interventions for preventing or treating alcohol hangover: systematic review of randomised controlled trials", in Bio Medical Journals, December 2005)

[CapoStudios]

then please explain to me how consuming alcohol temporarily cures a hangover? If someone is sick from not taking heroin, is it supposed to be some type of clinical explanation to his withdrawal symptoms that define his condition?? What, you need to go back to school OR gain some more personal experience before you start slandering a bunch of shenanigans about addiction/alcoholism which you obviously have no proper knowledge or experience of....

[Hammersley1967]

(i)

A hangover is due partly to poisoning by the toxic chemicals into which alcohol is converted by the body and the other components of the alcoholic drink, and partly to the body's reaction to withdrawal from alcohol. The symptoms of a "hangover" are similar to those of "withdrawal", namely a throbbing headache, nausea, and maybe even vomiting. Thus consuming more alcohol ("hair of the dog") may help by blunting some of these symptoms, but will only aggravate the symptoms...

[cont in (ii)]

[Hammersley1967]

(ii)

...once the liver breaks the alcohol down, because the body will have additional toxins to deal with.

See: William G Gossman, MD, Associate Clinical Professor of Emergency Medicine, Creighton University School of Medicine; Center's paper:

"Ethanol is effective in blunting withdrawal symptoms, but it is no longer indicated because of associated electrolyte abnormalities, potential worsening of gastritis, hepatitis, and pancreatitis".

(in E-medicine, July 2nd 2007)

[prschuster]

" BTW a disease in its true form means to be at DIS-ease aka. not at ease."

The above description of disease is not a medical definition. A medical disease involves a real physical pathological change in tissues which is beyond voluntary control. I'm sure that Dr Shaler understands that there are medical conditions associated with addiction and that there is brain chemistry involved with the cravings. He is obviously defining addiction by the behavior involved and that is voluntary.

[CapoStudios]

Check your facts dude. Suicide is a classified disease, and so is Alcoholism. Look at the list of registered diseases and tell me that. No matter how much you don't want it to be, it IS a disease per definition as is.

[prschuster]

Since you have not even bothered to address the distinctions I have made between the physical manifestations and voluntary behavior involved in addiction that I have made in previous posts, there is no need for me to repeat myself. Addiction involves BOTH choice and disease processes.

[CapoStudios]

Exactly... then what are you arguing? Choice has very little to do with it when it has become a physical manifestation. The word "treat" shifts meanings from "treating" oneself with something good, to "treating" oneself because something feels wrong. In both cases there is something wrong, if it's so bad you have to treat yourself with substance to flight from reality. When you're physiology craves alcohol, how is it a choice to not drink if that is the only way someone can feel good?

[CapoStudios]

"Something feels wrong"- Being at "DIS-ease."

[evet45]

What is difficult for most to accept is the fact that AA is effective to help people STAY sober and honest. It does not treat however, provides a deterrent for the cravings that may last for a lifetime- after a medical withdrawal or in the face of physical deterioration.

[prschuster]

"... AA is effective to help people STAY sober and honest."

AA works for those who do well with the program. Other approaches work for those who do well with alternatives to AA.

[evet45]

Happy to read you are sober, and your cravings do no compel you to drink. Yes there ARE other approaches, and hopefully they are effective as well. However, it is disturbing that people shame AA when it works for millions around the world.

[mskydolphin]

I looked at the AA web site:

A breif guide to AA.

"What Does Alcoholics Anonymous Not Do"

AA is for alcoholics who want to get sober.

AA is not a religious organization.

All members are free to decide on their own personal ideas about the meaning of life.

I did see the word Disease used once.

Many more times the word "ILLNESS" is used. I think people should do a little research before spouting off with a Strawman.

BTW, what did AA do to this guy?

Namaste

[psilocybe4u]

addiction is not a choice it is a sickness. drinking a bottle of vodka is a choice. some alcoholics have died from going cold turkey. its not exactly as simple as he is making it. alcohol does change your brain chemistry ask any REAL doctor what it does to the hypothalmus. this guy is almost as bad as my AA sponsor.

[prschuster]

I have wrestled with this diseae model for quite some time, and I think the main problem is in the ambiguity of the term, "alcoholism", itself. It does involve some real diseases of the brain & organ systems, and it also involves some conscious choice to take that first drink. It involves both a disease and a choice but it is not completely one or the other. The good news is that you can choose to quit drinking - something you can't do with a bona fide disease process.

[joedigits]

prschuster - your comment is one of the most sensible I've seen. A person begins drinking and a disease "process" begins. As the drinking progresses, perhaps years later, the "choice" to drink is removed and the person is "compelled" to drink. Because the process and compulsion include a physical demensia along with a dysfunction of liver and pancreas the condition goes way beyond "pleasure center" addiction. Abstinence is the remedy, but even then, the "condition" continues. Your opinion?

[prschuster]

"As the drinking progresses, perhaps years later, the choice to drink is removed and the person is compelled to drink" Joedigits

This is where the disease model gets fuzzy. An alcoholic has no control of their drinking if they are in the middle of a binge, but when they sober up for a while they can still make a decision to quit for good. The problem is that alcoholism is so ambiguously defined that it includes both the behavior of drinking and the organic changes in the brain & liver.

[jonslaterhome]

this is a wise statement -one of the first ive heard here. thanks for this.

[jmg4314]

exactly joedigits and prschuster. I am a recovering alcholic and I have a choice whether or not to take a drink. First I must get an obsession to take the drink which thankfully I have been relieved of. But once I take that first drink believe me I am then compelled to continue drinking and the compulsion becomes greater with each additional drink. I know this because my alcoholism had progressed to that point that when I picked up the first I could not stop til detox. 71/2 years sober now.

[evet45]

Addiction occurs in the brain. Liver disease and other medical issues can occur in those who are not addicted as well. A person is born with the gerome of alcoholism, and may never drink.

[prschuster]

If you refer to addiction as an imbalance or malfunction of neurotransmitters in the brain, then why do doctors prescribe 12-step support groups to treat it? How does this chemical imbalance relate to character defects like self will run riot or the inability to get honest with yourself? The whole language of the recovery movement is filled with a menagerie of medical and moralistic spiritual jargon. It's like mixing oil & water.

[evet45]

Yes adduction occurs in the brain., at the GABA recetor sites.

[evet45]

Yes you can stop drinking with the disease of alcoholism, Of course you can. You are confusing physical dependency with medical complications of alcohol use. One of the neurological disorders occurs with loss of vit B1= thiamine. However, that is not what addiction is. Addiction occurs a neurotransmitter junctions=GABA receptor sites.

[prschuster]

Eve45, did you notice that Dr Schaler described addiction as a behavior? He was speaking from that understanding of the word, which is how it is used in common parlance. If you define addiction by the brain chemistry, then it is a brain disease: but then you can't name it by the substance or behavior involved. It would be wrong to call it alcoholism or drug addiction if you are talking only about Dopamine, Serotonin or GABA. Be consistent when naming a disease. Call it GABA deficiency instead.

[evet45]

I am only calling it by the acceptable term. Do you call Measles "rash and fever" ?

[prschuster]

In prehistoric times, before the discovery of alcohol, there were people who were born with a brain chemistry which predisposed them to alcoholism; except that no one ever got drunk. So how can you say that there is a gene for alcoholism if it existed before anyone knew about alcohol? Calling a disease "alcoholism" conflates real disease processes with a substance that people voluntarily imbibe.

[evet45]

In prehistoric times there were such things as "genes"- DNA/RNA Believe me, if there was a fermented raisin or piece of fruit or bread, the first homo sapians got drunk. Read Genesis. If you introduce alcohol or other drugs to rats, they go back to the drug.

[prschuster]

"... if there was a fermented raisin or piece of fruit or bread, the first homo sapians got drunk." ...eve 45

Totally unable to read with comprehension or follow a line of reasoning.... just irrelevant ramblings about what everyone agrees upon anyway.

[Hammersley1967]

prschuster, evet45 has persistently tried to use this silly argument on me.

The alteration he attempts to "describe" in the GABA neurological receptor mechanism is a CONSEQUENCE of chronic and excessive alcohol consumption - not the CAUSE of chronic and excessive alcohol consumption.

Thus it is a secondary medical complication OF alcoholism and not the etiology itself...

evet45 is "confusing physical dependency with medical complications of alcohol use" - not you...

Still no disease...

[prschuster]

I know how these folks love to point to GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin or THIQ to make the point that addiction is a disease. Whether these brain chamistry conditions came before or after the alcohol, they still don't compel one to drink against one's will. Why are logic and reason such scarce commodities?

[Hammersley1967]

The short answer - indoctrination and defense of the in indoctrination...

[Hammersley1967]

[i]

"Whether these brain chamistry conditions came before or after the alcohol, they still don't compel one to drink against one's will."

IF anomalous neurochemistry is pre-existent to alcoholic behaviour, then the disease lobby definitely have a case for "loss of volition"...

[Hammersley1967]

[ii]

In the same way as schizophrenia and manic depression are resultant of anomalous neurochemistry... The individual does not WANT to experience mood instability and delusions or behave inappropriately but the psychic alterations dictate otherwise...

However, there is NO, ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH evidence for such a neurobiological anomaly...

[prschuster]

"IF anomalous neurochemistry is pre-existent to alcoholic behaviour, then the disease lobby definitely have a case for loss of volition..." Hammersley

There already are differences in neurochemistry between people and I'm sure some people are more likely to become addicted to certain substances because of that fact. That still doesn't make addictive behavior involuntary. It just means some people have a greater capacity for alcohol and others get the shakes more easily IMO.

[Hammersley1967]

"There already are differences in neurochemistry between people and I'm sure some people are more likely to become addicted to certain substances because of that fact."

Unfortunately, after 225 years of biomedical investigation, 70 years of intensive biomedical investigation (metabolic), and 40 years of extremely intensive biomedical investigation (biognetics and neurochemistry), there is absolutely NO evidence for this.

Hence, it is not a fact and more than likely will never be a fact...

[prschuster]

OK, maybe I have been misled about brain chemistry. Either way, I am in agreement with you that alcoholic drinking is a behavior that people voluntarily choose to engage in and which they can also choose to quit.

[Hammersley1967]

That's right.

If it's a disease which is marked by the characteristic of "loss of volition", then how does anyone quit?

[prschuster]

"If it's a disease which is marked by the characteristic of "loss of volition", then how does anyone quit?" Hammersley

We both know the answer to that question. You quit drinking by going to detox to dry out and then choosing to stay abstinent. I've been to two different rehabs and they both fed me this incredible line of double talk about what my disease entailed and what I had to do to be in recovery. That's why I continue to post on these sites. I find recovery talk irritating.

[evet45]

If you choose to stop drinking, then get a medical screening to determine if you need a medical withdrawal. Going cold turkey from alcohol can be deadly.

[prschuster]

"Going cold turkey from alcohol can be deadly." ...Eve45

I'm all for medical supervision when going through withdrawal from alcohol.

[evet45]

Exactly, because the addiction process in the brain needs to be medically treated with titrated like medication like valium or librium. They used to treat withdrawal with alcohol,in titrated down doses. Now the behaviors assoc. are treated by therapy, and AA helps support a sober life..

[evet45]

The compulsion is life long. AA and other support, one day at a time.

[prschuster]

"The compulsion is life long."

Actually, I rarely think about alcohol any more. The cravings decrease with time unless you keep obsessing about them.

[evet45]

Hopefully you can remain sober. AA is a way for people who need it, but it is not because they are immoral or weak, they are just people who need AA. It is disheartening to know people put down such a positive fellowship. It provides a positive alternative to drinking.

[Hammersley1967]

prschuster,

Would you agree that if the cravings DID persist for the entire life time, despite the longitude of abstinence (as it did with Bill Wilson for 37 years), then there is something definitely wrong in the equation somewhere (probably in the mode of therapy)?

[prschuster]

Hammersley,

If cravings do persist for a an entire lifetime despite abstinence, it's probably because the person is dwelling on the past with euphoric recall. Listening to too many drunkalogues can do it for some people. Reminding yourself that you're an addict can be taken to an extreme where you continue to revisit those cravings that define your addiction. I say a person must move on in life and stop dwelling on the past. Cravings should fade with time if you don't dwell on them.

[evet45]

Absolutely correct!

[jonslaterhome]

this is not right. if you go up to a bar and order an alcoholic drink then you have made a choice

[evet45]

However, the effect alcohol has on you is not a choice. Yes you have a choice not to pick up a drink, buy once the addiction process starts the compulsion/drive/addiction is not a choice.

[evet45]

Cancer is NOT the same as alcoholism,.

No other disease is the same as addiction. It's like comparing apples and wool sweaters! Again, addicted neonates do not choose their addiction, but have to be medically withdrawn! What I see here is you trying to prove that people who drink to excess, and cause all sorts of chaos are moral failures, and choose to be moral failures? WOW, How depressing and demoralizing you are!

[jonslaterhome]

what a load of crap

[evet45]

Not sure who you are referring to, Addiction is not a choice. The disease is genetic, and found on Chrom. 15. It is a physical response. The alcoholic does not live to drink, they drink to live. This guy is dangerous.

[jonslaterhome]

i was referring to you.

if a person has a disease, then they did nothing to initiate it right.? that's the most basic tenant in any religious organisation. 'my disease is i'm human'. it absolves all responsibility. suddenly you need god. suddenly you are powerless, hopeless, unless you follow a list of man-made rules. to instil this in a 'newcomer' is just really *evil* behaviour, and now i will always try to fight against it

all humans are dangerous, but you appear to be more dangerous than me

[jmg4314]

yes correct, and if addiction is a moral issue or just a poor choice that humans make then why in cocaine studies do mice continue to drink from the bottle that contains the cocaine cocktail in lieu of eating or drinking water until they ultimately kill themselves.

[prschuster]

jmg4314, you ask why, if addiction is a moral issue, the mice continue to drink cocaine laced water in lieu of eating. It's because they are mice with no capacity for making moral decisions. Morality is all about doing the hard thing and resisting the temptation to give into your urges. The moral decision involved with alcoholism is the decision to resist that first drink. But after a few drinks the alcohol sabotages your brain and you begin to lose your capacity to make decisions.

[evet45]

Morality has nothing to do with an addicted brain. Newborns who require medical withdrawal who were born from a mother who used during pregnancy are not morally depraved. An adult addict cannot stop unless separated from the substance.

[prschuster]

"Morality has nothing to do with an addicted brain" ... Eve45

In that case, 12-step programs, which focus on Higher Powers and moral inventories, are quite irrelevant to recovery from an addiction.

[evet45]

The "morality" of AA is Not irrelevant at all. the things one did while drinking need to be addressed, along with dark despair, and self hatred. FolKs go thru stages when they hate themselves for wasting their talents and the things they did to their family, along with self pity. AA puts sobriety first, then provides tools for for recovery. the compulsion to drink is lifelong. An AA member can take what tools they need to stay sober, without judgement.

[evet45]

Proof of addiction without using alcohol , or other drugs willfully is that of a newborn infant who has to be withdrawn medically, due to it's mother's drinking. It's not the psychological problem of the infant! Ever hear the high pitched cry of an alcoholic newborn? Once you do, you are sure to medically treat it. Who sponsored this video? Seagrams?

[jetplane002]

ROFLMAO! The only professional addicitions specialists I have ever seen against A.A. are the one's that are promoting their own recovery program and profiting off from it. LOL

[evet45]

I agree with you! Maybe they want you to drink KOOL-Aid, and that's not funny, it''s a disgrace!

[IdrinkAAcosNAsFELONS]

this fake is from state prison and cannot wear a shabby suit. loser

[msk7046]

Studied HAVE definitely isolated a genome in addicts.

[AAPetofile]

please show the study then

[msk7046]

Google TIME MAGAZINE cover story.

[AAPetofile]

brother , i googled time magazine cover story (funny name for a study) and i got this:

he Thriving Cult of Greed and Power

Ruined lives. Lost fortunes. Federal crimes. Scientology poses as a religion but really is a ruthless global scam -- and aiming for the mainstream

by Richard Behar

I guess that you are telling me the truth, that AA is even worse than Scientology

[evet45]

Check out the Mayo web site or the Washington U web site.

[evet45]

Genes have been ID'ed on On Chromsone 15

[ChiefsKSU187]

The Big Book describes alcoholism as an illness, not a disease, so whats the big deal...

[AAPetofile]

and the difference between and illness and a disease is?

[justanotherface123]

It most certainly does, maybe you should read that book again?

[evet45]

The BB was written way before electronic microscopes and DNA testing, however, Bill W and Dr Bob were on to something. Science only proved them right. AA helps people stay sober and stop making excuses for inexcusable behavior. I am stumped at all the confusion out there.

[zelliko]

You are ignorant. I have been sober 32 years in AA and know what I am talking about. If you have no experience with alcohlism then you need to shut your mouth.

[howDAREyouSIR]

honestly, who picks out your clothes?

[goldsmithstudent]

hey doc, take 10 xlax pills and choose not to shit

[dog1boy]

Thanks for posting this.