HHO / hydrogen generator (water for gas) from Westcoast Exterminators!

[k0nn0r]

@wcemichael Fair enough. I'm an engineering student in my 5th year, I know my stuff. I won't be talked down to just because I'm "book smart" as opposed to.. what exactly? I've shown why I think HHO doesn't and cannot work. Anyone who states otherwise either has no clue about engineering and thermodynamics or wants to try and sell their HHO products, which are nothing but a scam. HHOTruth strikes me as the latter. If you want, I can show you in more detail why HHO is bogus.

[wcemichael]

@k0nn0r I have nothing against going to school, but I have over 35 years on hand experience. I fixed my own bicycle when I was 7 from a book. I helped build my mothers house when I was 14. I did it a little of everything. I worked on my own cars, before I was 20. I wrote my own programs on a comodore 64 in college. I figured out motorcycles from a non running yard sale honda 350 and rode it for years. I'm selling a new style wood stove plan on ebay. Now I've figured out the power problem on HHO.

[k0nn0r]

@wcemichael I know I've been a harsh critic of HHO, but there is one way HHO can work. If you install a heat exchanger in the exhaust tube and use it to power a water vapor process that drives a turbine and then a generator, you can then perform electrolysis and use that HHO to improve your mileage. This is fundamentally different, because instead of using shaft power, you are using the exhaust heat, which is waste anyway. If you can find a way to use waste, you increase efficiency.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r I'm not trying to sell you or anyone any thing I HAVE SEEN HHO AND H2 AT WORK AND HAVE USED IT!

I'm happy you are in your 5th year of study but MY POINT IS THERE IS MORE TO THE HHO/H2 THAN JUST PUT IT IN YOUR CAR!

I to have ben working on cars from the age of 16 I'm now 58 so I think I have the wright to say somthing about it!

I was a truck-driver for 14 years AND SEEN TRUCKERS USE IT!

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth You keep saying that, but what more is there? The efficiency of an engine has very little to do with how efficiently the fuel burns, in most modern engines the fuel is burned with an efficiency north of 95%, there is not much you can do. I've comprehensively shown that HHO cannot work. All you're saying in return is "Well, there's more..", that doesn't have me convinced.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r See my new video to know that there is more to it than just put a cell in your car.

[twinkletoes616]

Why are all the comments so long. I am posting this for a bit of a change

[GroovyLoveChild]

@twinkletoes616 same.

[wcemichael]

@GroovyLoveChild OK sure. why not?

[k0nn0r]

@wcemichael Actually, you can know that. You get the same energy back from hydrogen oxygen combustion that you invested into splitting water, but you cannot make use of all the energy of that combustion. You have heat losses in the cylinder, you dont have a complete combustion and most of all, you dont have a thermodynamic process with an efficiency of 100%. You cannot get all your energy back, so you end up with more losses than gains. It's basic thermodynamics.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r "so you end up with more losses than gains" And how did you come up with this?

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth It's very simple. You take energy from the shaft in the form of a generator and you get electricity. That electricity is used to dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen. Then you put that in the cylinder, combust it with the rest of the gas and get some energy out of it. The energy you get from the combustion is less than your electrolysis cost you. You have losses in the generator, the electrolysis, the combustion and the thermodynamic process. You end up with less. Simple

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r There is more to it than to just put a hho cell in your car to get more mpg's!

You end up with a gane. Simple!

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Lets make it SIMPLE for you you ADD hho or h2 to the gas in your car or bike burn faster with less heat there for MORE MPG'S.

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth But you dont just add HHO or H2, you have to dissociate water first and that costs you more energy than you get back. If you had a bottle of H2 and just injected that, sure you would have a gain, because the cost of creating that H2 wouldnt go into your balance, it was already paid. If you make your own HHO, you have to account for the energy that goes into that and that leaves you with more losses than gains.

[wcemichael]

@k0nn0r But remeber! the space shuttle main engines (not the side boosters) run on 2 parts H 1 part O, not gas. H as I understand is 5x more powerfull than gas. And first your getting a extra bang from the HHO then this helps the gas burn more complete too (remeber we need a converter to burn the excess gases). I have also considered the electric consumption too AND I have come up with way to get HHO WITHOUT drawing extra power. I just proved this in a bench test and will try it next summer.

[k0nn0r]

@wcemichael The difference with the Space Shuttle is that you already have hydrogen and oxygen, you dont need to creat them first. OF COURSE burning hydrogen and oxygen gives you energy, but it gives you LESS than you need to dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen.

You have found a way to dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen without drawing power? Man, I'd get a patent on that, because you just might be the only one in the world who can do that.

[HHOTruth]

@wcemichael The space shuttle uses H2 not HHO, The O is added.

But yes you are right your getting a extra bang from the HHO then this helps the gas burn more complete.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Hmm Ok: So than what you are saying is that we cant drive at night, run the air or even run the radio and not even stop cuz of the brake lights?

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth That comment makes no sense. Of course we can, there's generators and batteries, but it costs you.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Only about 14%--26% of the energy from the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car down the road, depending on the drive cycle. The rest of the energy is lost to engine and driveline inefficiencies or used to power accessories. Therefore, the potential to improve fuel efficiency with advanced technologies is enormous.

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth That is correct, but HHO is not an advanced technology. You cannot improve the thermodynamic efficiency of a process by trying to burn something else. HHO cannot improve your mileage and if you say so, you're either an idiot or a fraud. HHO has been debunked.

[wcemichael]

@k0nn0r by people like mythbusters who can't run a proper experiment?

[k0nn0r]

@wcemichael The argument that the mythbusters experiment failed because it was not run properly is idiotic. To say that their electrolysis was insufficient because they didn't add baking soda further proves that you have no clue about what's going on, you don't need electrolytes for electrolysis, it even works on de-ionised water. HHO doesn't work and cannot work because your overall sum of energy is negative, not positive. If you believe it does, you're either an idiot or a fraud.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r No HHO has not been debunked! It can and will improve thermodynamic efficiency of the burn when ADDED to gas.

Dont start with the name calling I did not start with you!

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r "HHO cannot improve your mileage" Have you tryed or tested it??

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth I dont need to, I understand how it works, or rather, doesn't work. I dont need to waste time and money to see that it doesnt work.

Also, it's not name-calling, it's a factual assertion. You're either an idiot or trying to rip people off. There's no third possibility.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Ok if you like be like that than this is a factual assertion you fall in with the cult-nut naysayers cuz you dont or wont understand how hho works so you just make fun of it.

"It is idiotic to think that the mythbusters experiment got it right when you can see the experiment failed because it was not run properly" This is true the experiment was not ran properly!

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r "I dont need to, I understand how it works" Yes you befor you make comments like you and the other cult-nut naysayers say!

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth Let me explain to you why HHO doesnt work: Let's say you take 3000W of power from your driveshaft and drive a generator. Let's assume there are no losses and those 3000W turn into Oxyhydrogen gas worth 3000W. Now you put this Oxyhydrogen gas into your engine that's only 33% efficient, you get 2000W losses and 1000W worth of shaft power. You turned 3000W shaft power that went into the generator into 1000W of shaft power with 2000W of losses. It doesn't work. It's a scam.

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Are going to SPIN?

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r And you know this how? 

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Show us your proof!

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth I think I just did. Is there any part you dont understand?

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r NO PROOF!

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r wcemichael is trying to show you his proof in his video.

SO DO YOUR TESTING SHOW YOUR PROOF!

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth I just did. Using 3000W of shaft power to create 3000W worth of oxyhydrogen gas is physically impossible already. But I'm giving you the benefit of doubt. Even those 3000W of gas dont turn into 3000W of shaft power because your engine is a lot less than 100% efficient. You get around 1000W of shaft power, the rest goes out your exhaust pipe as losses. You are turning 3000W into 1000W. Where is the gain?

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r I told you THERE IS MORE TO IT THAN JUST ADD HHO OR H2 TO GET MORE MPG'S

You are just trying to spin just like the cult-nut naysayers do.

[k0nn0r]

@HHOTruth Err, no there's not. Let's suppose HHO "improves gas combustion" as you people claim, that might give you 1200W, if we're generous. That's still a big loss.

I showed you where the losses are. Where are the gains? If there are any?

[HHOTruth]

@k0nn0r Err, yes there is and hho or h2 will improve gas combustion.

You dont know much about auto's do you?

You dont know by adding somthing to gas to improve combustion?

How about adding a K&N to add HP and MPG's?

How about adding a high flow cat and muffler to get more HP and MPG's?

How about chaging your lights to LED's?

This is but a small list of things you can do to help with HP and MPG's than add HHO or H2.

[wcemichael]

@k0nn0r If you took your computer in to be fixed and the guy said he knew what was wrong but never tested it before or after he worked on it, would you go back to him? If you haven't put one on your vehicle then you don't really know. Now the big drawback is it takes power to create this power, BUT I just ran an experiment on how to run WITHOUT using extra power. sounds crazy but I did it. and will be trying this out next summer on my bike.

[k0nn0r]

@wcemichael But it's not a computer, it's a simple machine designed to do one thing. The process is clear and you analyse it, every step is known. You dont have to do the experiment, you can look up the values in tables and see what happens. It's not magic, it's science.

It's not working, it can't work. You cant get more energy out than went in. What you are saying is not even a perpetuum mobile, it's worse, because you get more out than went in.

[christo930]

Why does the water turn brown? Is it the baking soda or are there impurities or even metal that is oxidizing in the can?

[wcemichael]

@christo930 Not sure WHY the water turns brown yet. it does it with distilled water too. Before I would not touch it because I didn't know what is was but I did a test, and now I know that this is iron oxide, commonly known as rust. I know this because I dried some and heated it. it then could be picked up by a magnet.

[christo930]

@wcemichael Is it coming from iron that is dissolved in the water to begin with? I don't think distilled water would have much iron dissolved in it and if I recall corectly, your plates are copper? maybe it's the bolt leaching iron into the water? Maybe you can use brass bolts. Brass is highly conductive, even more so than iron.

[wcemichael]

@christo930 I think so. water can hold a lot of stuff. Plates are stainless steel (very important). and one unit had some plate corrosion but the amount of rust was bigger that the area eaten away. I'm just glad that is just rust, because I use tot think that it could be caustic or toxic, or both, now I know this is not true. I used 1 bottle all summer then cleaned it. The rust is not a big problem nor will it short out the circit if too much is collected. Just a byproduct not a big deal unless.

[wcemichael]

@wcemichael ...unless you have the wrong design and water can not circulate or be cleaned without taking it apart. Which is another reason my bottle works good. open the cap and it's apart.

[christo930]

@wcemichael I notice the hose is brown too, which means rust particles are making it into your intake system and could, in theory, damage the valves, rings and cylinder walls. Perhaps a small in-line air filter would keep any rust particles from the intake system. I also notice the hose goes into the intake directly in front of the MAF sensor, which feeds the computer information about how much air is getting into the engine and what temperature it is, that rust might start to coat the sensor.

[wcemichael]

@christo930 Well, those hoses get dried out and change color a little bit. And the first hookup or 2 the unit was overfilled. and the run off was blown through. But the rust was still trapped in the water. You'll notice a brown stain on the air filters too, The first trial in the green car started boiling away from too much the sodium being too strong, and splued all over it. The truck and bike, if you'll note. The hose is on the other side of the filter so the gas is filtered.

[christo930]

@wcemichael Oh, it looked like it was on the manifold side of the filter, sorry about that. Since I was seeing it disconnected, it looked like the hose was coming into the intake hose right after the filter and right before the mass air flow sensor (MAF sensor) and the MAF sensor controls mixture timing and other things, and I wouldn't want t see it damaged.Sorry about that. What are your latest mileage improvements?

[wcemichael]

@christo930 no prob. the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. on regular vehicles, it seems to give about 5 MPG extra, no special hook ups. your also battling the extra power it takes to generate gas. still testing. On my bike all reg bulbs were either replaced with LED bulbs or turned off to reserve power for the unit. the bike goes 20 miles extra on 2 gal tank. Check my newest vids for motorcycle/scooter hookup. next year I will try multible units, get more gas and use less power.

[christo930]

@wcemichael Thanks. I know it sounds rather obvious, but having the tires properly inflated and the engine in good tune can help too, as can removing any unnecessary stuff in your trunk and such (reducing weight). Also, for most cars on the road today, there are replacement chips for your car's computer that can increase mileage or make it faster by leaning out the mixture and custom timing and most can be disabled for when it comes time to get your emissions test (if you have that in your area)

[wcemichael]

@christo930 The auto industry is not giving you their best work. Look up 1976 Dodge "Feather Duster" Its a mid size car with a 6 cyl engine, with a carberator, no electronics, and cars tended to be heavier back then. It got 36 MPG. My wifes 2002 Dodge Stratus, with a 4 cycl and modern EFI And aerodynamices can only get 25 MPG, while I had an older Ford van with V8 EFI, Heavy and shaped like a box. got me 21 MPG

[christo930]

@wcemichael I noticed that too, light cars from back in the day got pretty good mileage compared to today. Of course, some of them were real gas hogs. Largely, I think it's the emissions that does it. The temp has to be kept down so they use a mixture that is too rich, the cat converter puts a lot of pressure on the exhaust, you have air pumps dragging down, bigger water pumps to keep the aluminum blocks cooler and far too much electronics that necessitates a larger alternator.

[christo930]

@christo930 I had a 91 Calais with a quad 4 engine in it that got 40mpg, 160hp and 165FP/tourque, all three numbers were better than the standard engine a tech-4. It got such mileage because it had 4 valves per cylinder and a better than 10:1 compression ratio. The problem is that they didn't use a better head gasket and the high compression ratio blew them out(mine never did). AND it had real air conditioning. The new air conditioning doesn't work as good as freon and uses more gas to run.

[irondmax]

i like it...............good thinking with the bottle

[wcemichael]

My truck normaly gets 15MPG. With the unit it gets 20MPG. So every 20 gal of gas used gives me an extra 100 miles of travel for free. If you do a bunch of engine retuning it could do better. My motorcycle get an extra 10-14MPG. Normal light bulbs have been replaced with LED bulbs to save enough power to run it. Now, a simple unit like this can draw too much power and make to much heat. To fix this you use less baking soda. The bike unit has a much weaker solution to solve it's power consumption.

[shilohsullivan]

how has this affected the mileage of the truck? anywhere near the % of the motorcycle? mpg?

[wcemichael]

@shilohsullivan Oh, I'm sorry I didn't see the comment till now. Truck got 5 extra MPG, but not conclusive because I only tested it one time, but I did have 1 fill up with 75% ethinol in a gas truck and it ran pretty good. I fill up the bike everytime I'm on it and test results were 20 extra miles on the same tank of gas, and least 10 -20 fill ups. This is conclusive for me. Another person in England copied my work and got better results off his brothers bike because he has a smaller engine.

[wcemichael]

Great. Constantly recheck everything. make sure the gens not too hot, not drawing too much power, not boiling the water after 10-20 mins. As for MSG, I use it because we already have on hand. So I tried it and it worked. If you have an asian store nearby, go ahead and try it if you want, but I wouldn't worry about it. Got any pics, vids?

[09Youba]

Thanks for the update. That's great gas mileage. I just started with 1 teaspoon of

baking soda in the bottle. I've only driven it 40 miles but I have notice the engine

sounds and runs smoothers. Let me know if you think I should try MSG.

09 Youba

[09Youba]

Thank you, I just switched the leads on the relay and everything is working including

my 3 way switch. Thanks for all your help again. I will let you know what kind of gas

mileage I'm getting. 09Youba

[wcemichael]

@09Youba OK glad to hear it. Don't try to push it. if your bottle gets super hot or boiling, cut back on the baking soda. The one on my motorcycle, I started with an unknown chemical, and was drawing too much power, but I thought the gas was good, but the battery died. I was getting 36mpg. I changed to a less amount of MSG (chinese salt) and you can't really tell the thing is on, because there is so little power drain. BUT my MPG is 40-44. Too much will burn out the relay so start small.

[09Youba]

When the ignition is shut off I still have power to the bottle. Thanks 09Youba

[09Youba]

I must be doing something wrong. I have everything hooked like your diagram shows. But I have power to the bottle all the time. The 30 amp relay is 4 prong and it

clicks when I plug the lead into the relay and I still have power if I pull out the 2 amp fuse line that goes into fuse holder. Any suggestions. Thank you, 09Youba.

[wcemichael]

Make sure the bottle works by itself first. Hook up ground and battery, Your not asking for a lot of HHO, just a trickle. That works? check relay. Hook up gnd and bat to 2 opposet terminals, Hear a click with power? These are the terminals for ignition and ground. the other 2 are for bat and bottle. got picks?

[09Youba]

I hooked everything up. I have power from the 2 amp fuse connection and I have power from the relay to the battery but I'm not receiving power from the relay to the

water bottle. I have the bottle grounded and tight connections to the hose clamp and the positive wire to the bolt in the bottle. Any suggestions will help. Thank you, 09Youba

[09Youba]

I have everything hooked up except the 2 amp fuse wire which is 14 gauge.

What fuse did you install your wire in?  Would the windshield wiper 25 amp fuse

be ok. Thank you 09Youba

[wcemichael]

Update on motorcycle road test. The first time is was using an unknown chemical bought on ebay. My bike went from 30-36.4 MPG. I STOPPED USING IT BECAUSE IT IS POISION AND CAUSTIC AND SOONER OR LATER THE BOTTLE HAS TO BE DUMPED SOMEWHERE AND POSION THE EARTH. DO NOT USE!

Second road test. I use MSG (Mono Sodium Glutimate), that stuff your suppose to avoid in chinese cooking. With this and lowered amps. I went from 30 - 44.1 MPG which I think is pretty amazing

[09Youba]

Thank you for answering my questions. I purchased the materials today. I plan on running a toggle switch above the 2 amp fuse and then after the diesel engine is

started I will turn on the switch for the hydrogen. I will let you know how it works.

Thanks for all your help. 09Youba.

[wcemichael]

@09Youba Good. keep me posted with results and debugging, Don't forget, your not trying to fill a blimp, you're just trying to get a trickle. You might be able to upgrade later.

[09Youba]

I have one more question. I have a 1993 Diesel Truck that has glow plugs that

have to heat up for about 1 min. Is that going to be a problem with maybe to much

hydrogen vapor going into the air filter or does it take longer for the hydrogen to heat

up. Thank you, 09Youba

[wcemichael]

@09Youba It shouldn't, not with mine. but you might upgrade later and consider it. But I've seen big rigs with six packs in them. Now consider the my bike. the tube is just sitting in there. If the carb is not suck it in then it will float up and out. if your still worried drill a small escape hole at the top. Then it's impossible for build up. another thing to consider is if you have a diesel, you might have more amps to play with.

[09Youba]

Thank you for the web site and diagram. Nice bikes and mechanical talented

members. Its nice to see Americans helping others.

09Youba.

[09Youba]

Thank you for the video. Best I've seen. What size of electrical wire do you use?

Thank you. 09Youba

[wcemichael]

@09Youba Thickest wire Meijer's had, for bottle and batery and ground. Green wire I found in the truck, when I bought it. the guy had one of those phones that had to be installed in the vehicle. It's not that big. The hook is left on the handle and the unit hangs instead of trying to come up with a bracket. Use a smaller battery fuse till your comfortablae with your baking soda/water ratio. MSG works good to

[09Youba]

Thank you for this video. You are a good instructor. I just hope I can get the electrical

right. 09Youba

[wcemichael]

@09Youba goto englishknights.weebly.com for diagram

[Seal6Sniper]

Best video I have seen yet that explains it all in fine detail. Very nice, thanks!

[wcemichael]

@Seal6Sniper No.... Thank you! Check out my HHO motorcycle vid!

[wcemichael]

Accidently had the commets off. It's on now.