Bahai And The New World order with background music this time

[angelfly72]

God bless you, Chriscom28! You are seeking the path of truth in your life, regardless of what others have to say. All of the Manifestations represent Chapters of the Same Holy Book; they have come to Earth as designated by God, the Creator of the Universe, to educate and bring mankind closer to Him. The spiritual message is the same: Love and honor God, mankind and yourselves, do good works. Only the social teachings has changed over the millennium. May God bless your journey!

[angelfly72]

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith.

[angelfly72]

Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established….

[angelfly72]

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations.

[angelfly72]

Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

[fsmtdaler]

"The peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are subjects of one God." "Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and fellowship." "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established."

[MrJapilz]

The comments here are really nasty. Did anyone here say why they think "Bahai" is bad. All I see are the words: "cult," "NWO," ... no one even explains why. This was a waste of time. No one knows how to speak kindly to one another anymore.

[TheSpacydawn]

My parents were Baha'i, and despite not being an active follower myself I have every respect for the Bahai Faith. The main principles of the religion are the unity of man kind but this should not in any way be confused with the Globalization NWO our present dark leaders are forcing us in to. The bahai Faith is tolerant of all other races and religions....I would advise further reading.

Misinformation is our greatet foe.

[AMIRsarkari]

Bahaism is a NWO cult

[squiggz90]

@AMIRsarkari it sure is buddy i live with 2 and they tried to convert me but the holy spirit warnned me, they have ID cards (like REAL ID) don't know where you stand but F*#K the NWO

[LPATWILLFILM]

@AMIRsarkari AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. JESUS CHRIST IS LORD! Isn't funny how these "religions" always try to MIX and MINGLE JESUS CHRIST into their soup? But, JESUS CHRIST flat out call these JOKERS "thieves and robbers!" HALLLELUJAH THANK YOU LORD JESUS CHRIST! THANK YOU THAT YOU ARE THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THAT THE BIBLE IS YOUR INFALLIBLE AND IMMUTABLE WORD that is STILL saving souls, redeeming the lost, breaking the LIES OF SATAN at every turn! BAHAI IS NEW AGE & SEDUCING SPIRIT

[dafedge2007]

claims made by Dreyfus that are verifiably false:

- They took a leading role in the founding of the league of nations (not unless leading role has a radically different meaning)

- Abdu'l Baha preached "abolishing... existing world religions" (a precursory reading of any talk he gave in Europe will see him praising existing world religions)

- esperanto is a baha'i project to abolish all tongues (actually Baha'i writings have always called for an AUXILIARY international language).

[dafedge2007]

more claims made by Dreyfus:

- Al Afghani's followers were primarily Persian Baha'is (um.. that's odd, considering he actively opposed the Baha'is because they disturbed the unity of Islam)

- Abdu'l Baha's daughter married the head of the Esperanto movement (this one is laughable. The daughter of the head of the esperanto movement became a Baha'i, not the daughter of Abdu'l Baha)

You can't even trust this guy on the facts that we can verify. So should we trust him on the "super secret facts"?

[Hurakhsh]

Can you cite the page number where Dreyfuss makes these claims? It doesn't appear to be in my copy of HOSTAGE TO KHOMEINI.

[Hurakhsh]

Page number. You are making assertion without proof, a typical Bahai fallacy argument.

[dafedge2007]

He makes all of the claims in the space of a couple of paragraphs on page 117. If you want to make sure you are using the same copy, you can find the free download on wikipedia. Try not to hurt your neck as it has been scanned in rotated 90 degrees.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

save your sarcasm for your satanic conclaves, dafedge, and quit ignoring the points/question made about Tudor-Pole and your potentially deployed status by the bahai internet agency.

[dafedge2007]

This wasn't sarcasm. I have been getting a sore neck reading it.

And yes, I am ignoring your questions about the Baha'i Internet Agency, as it is a red herring. You have not presented any real evidence, so your answer is to attack me personally.

Interesting that your arguments have become more pointed at me personally as I have discredited the sources you have presented.

And you still haven't answered the question as to why you misrepresented the views of Juan Cole and Nikki Keddie.

[Hurakhsh]

You are ignoring the question because, quite frankly, you are hack associated with it and your circular argumentative tactics demonstrate that all your responses here are being scripted.

And we have not misrepresented Cole or Keddie's view. YOU however have outright bald LIED about what Dreyfuss says on p.117 of HOSTAGE TO KHOMEINI.

[dafedge2007]

Reread it. It's there. I even gave you the source you can read the exact same pdf I'm reading. Anyone of a truly independent mind can read it for themselves and confirm it for themselves. As you seem to have no independence of mind, debating you seems a futile point. To any independent mind reading this discussion, feel free to read this page for yourself and see how blatantly people will lie in order to attack the Baha'i Faith.

[Hurakhsh]

I have. It ain't there, bro. Why don't you cut and paste the section with the page number and post it here.

[dafedge2007]

"Everywhere he went he preached a single message: the necessity of abolishing nation-states, existing world religions and national borers to melt everything into a single new world order. The Bahai cult took a leading role in the founding of the World League of Nations, the forerunner to the United Nations, and his organisation had close ties to World Federalists..."

falsifiable statements from "Hostage of Khomeini" page 117

[dafedge2007]

(continued)

"Abdu'l-Baha's daughter married the founder of the so-called Esperanto language, a project to abolish all tongues and replace them with one language. The Baha'is could also be found in the middle of the British-led social reform movements."

falsifiable statements from "Hostage of Khomeini" page 117

[RevoltAgainstLies]

You're getting a sore neck from the fear that underlies most psychosomatic/tension myositis pain disorders. You *fear* that the outright weight of what's been posted here will out your demonstrably counterfeit psuedo-religious movement for the political tool that it is, and has been. & you're pathetically equating an attack on your credibility with an attack on your person. Take your ego out of this. Lastly, some magnificent evidence has been presented here, in mere comments.

[dafedge2007]

The likelihood that 1 person among 5 million Baha'is will have connections to an institution identified with conspiracy theories is pretty high. The likelihood that this connection will be mischaracterised and painted as something else is pretty much guaranteed.

Try do something to help make your neighbourhood a better place, rather than combing through minutiae looking for ways to attack a peaceful religion.

[Chriscom28]

If this is an attack, then give me a few weeks and there will be nothing left of the organisation. I clearly stated that this isn't an attack on the organisation.

[dafedge2007]

Sorry mate, this statement wasn't aimed at your video. It was meant to be a reply to the comments of RevoltAllLies above. I completely respect your interest in exploring this issue, but I was dismayed with the falsities portrayed by RevoltAllLies.

[Chriscom28]

That's cool. I take back that I said there. So would you like to express your views on the issues I've raised in the video? This is merely one aspect of my interest. The history of the use of the term "new world order". I'm planning on reading Alice Baily's book when I can get the money.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Mining away at truth, away from mind-controlled and familial/generational conditioning, IS helping the neighbourhood become a better place. Do yourself a massive favor and research Freemasonry and its ties to Bahais. I know Bahais that are also Freemasons, or who recently "left" said religion and initiated into masonic orders. Also, read mainstream historian Robert Dreyfuss's brilliant book, "Hostage To Khomeini" for the British-backed history of the Bahai movement.

[dafedge2007]

"Hostage to Khomeini". That is the victim suddenly being cast as the villain. The Iranian government carried out a pogrom to destroy the Baha'i Faith, one that continued even after both the establishment and the overthrow of the Shah, and yet this book endorses that they were the ones behind it all. Do me a favour. Go talk to a Baha'i refugee from Iran. For a guy who seems to distrust authority, you put a lot of faith in a text that endorses the authority of the Turkish and Iranian governments.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Do YOURSELF a massive favor and READ a bit more than what's spoonfed to you by your cult. David Kelly wasn't alone in being part of this wider game; Maurice Strong is as well. Also, Dreyfuss's book wasn't written by the Islamists running Iran, and certainly isn't alone in its category of revealing British subversion in Persia, the Ottomon Empire and South Asia.

[dafedge2007]

And here's the funnier thing. The book was commissioned by Lyndon LaRouche. Do yourself a favour and research the LaRouche Movement. If you're as up on your knowledge of freemasonry and viable history as you claim, you should already know about it...

[RevoltAgainstLies]

I know plenty about the LaRouche movement, thanks Einstein. They are anti-illuminati, which certainly shouldn't discredit them from said subject matter. You know who else prominently endorsed said book? The late Shah's wife, Empress Farah Diba Pahlavi. Talk about judging a book by its cover. Step away from your Kool-Aid and read VIABLE HISTORY, not the concocted type available in Barnes & Noble booksellers.

[dafedge2007]

I question the sources you are using.

You use the sources of the authorities who were dedicated to destroying the Baha'i Faith not because it was a secret plot to take over the world, but because it's popularity threatened their own grip on power. During the reign of the Shah, persecution of the Baha'is was rampant. The Pahlavi's have blood on their hands, so of course they want to paint their enemy as evil.

You trust the LaRouche movement a lot more than I do. It's a political cult.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

By what right do you question the sources I'm using?!? As if being a member of a minority cult yourself affords you any further credibility? You've been *indoctrinated*; hence you wouldn't know abject historical truth if it hit you upside the head. Separately, you attest to the fact that Bahai, regardless of its non-partisan pronouncements, *threatened Pahlavi's grip on power*. Not political, you say? Bollocks.

[dafedge2007]

And there we have it. "By what right do I have to question your sources..."

The right to question sources, I assumed, was fundamental in a discussion like this. If you are going to claim abject truth, as you do below, I have a right to question the validity of the sources you use to get to that truth.

A threat to power doesn't have to be real, just perceived as real, just as you may not really be a threat to the bully on the playground, but he'll hit you anyway based on his insecurity.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

dafedge, i don't think you're reading me properly. With "by what right" i wasn't seeking to "bully". I just meant "What sort of **credibility** do you have to claim my sources are wrong?" Ad hominems against LaRouche? (BTW, that author Dreyfuss is a prominent, 'mainstream' pundit today, not a LaRouche rep.). Also, as if you're not inherently claiming "abject truth", coming from a religious POV?!? Lastly, your last point was spurious. You are, essentially, arguing with yourself!!!

[dafedge2007]

OK, so let me ask you one simple questions.

If Baha'is really were the massive conspiracy to overthrow the region in favour of Zionism, then explain the fact that the one criteria that every Baha'i executed by the Iranian Authorities could obtain their freedom simply by recanting their faith and converting to Islam. If this was truly a political execution rather than a religious one, why was that the criteria and not "renounce zionism?"

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Are you truly this catastrophically naïve?!? I know your familial and religious indoctrination claims that religion and politics are separate phenomena, but that's not the reality of the matter. 1) Iran's system sees religion as encompassing all, including politics, 2) So does the Bahai system, despite semantic twists. I.E. Bahai pushes for world government. That alone is an innately political goal. 3) All organized religion is used for political purposes. Wake up, man!

[dafedge2007]

Here's what I don't get about your argument. You see two sources. One is a rather small religion that says things like "wouldn't it be nice if we had world peace" and "You call God Allah, I call Him Jehovah, aren't we really all talking about the same guy". The other is the government killing people of that religion, including teenage girls, and you say "you know what, that bully with his foot on the neck of the other one, lets believe him"

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Of course, if what you just depicted were the abject reality, I would get my argument either. Sadly, and again, you are too *indoctrinated* by said movement to step aside and look at human history and world events with a more sober eye. Were you to read more, you'd start seeing that that "rather small religion" is backed by something much, much deeper, older, more coordinated and more sinister. In addition to the stated works I've referenced, read Juan Cole and Nikki Keddie as well.

[dafedge2007]

Juan Cole is a former Baha'i, and to the best of my knowledge has never claimed that the Baha'i Faith was an arm of the British Government. His disagreement is with the community, not the foundation of the Faith.

And will you STOP with the indoctrination mantra. It is just as easy for me to turn around and say that your statements are because you are indoctrinate with certain conspiracy theories, and that gets this debate nowhere. Argue facts, not prejudice.

[dafedge2007]

And having read Keddie's account of the founding of the Babi and Baha'i religions, you are grossly misrepresenting her position as well. Saying that there is a Western Influence on a given religion is not the same as saying it was created by the British Government to overthrow the Iranian / Persian government.

I am influenced by listening to hip hop. It doesn't mean that Dr Dre wrote my latest album.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Read Cole's work on Rashid Rida, but also the material on British influences in 19th Century Persia. Again, read Carroll Quigley (not a LaRouche-ite, I assure you!) and his ilk. And I will STOP with nothing; this isn't one of your controlled conclaves, but an open forum, last I checked.

[dafedge2007]

Again, I read the work Cole did on Rashid Rida. Let me quote: "Rida, as a contemporary observer, apparently felt that the Baha'i Faith was appealing enough to constitute a threat to Sunni Islam. Only this can explain his steady stream of polemics against it."

Juan R.I. Cole. "Muhammad `Abduh and Rashid Rida: A Dialogue on the Baha'i Faith." World Order Vol. 15, nos. 3-4 (Spring/Summer 1981):7-16.

Did you read it yourself? Or just google Juan Cole, Baha'i Faith and conspiracy?

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Look up "Rashid Rida on the Bahai Faith: A utilitarian theory of the spread of religions" by Cole. Perhaps you need to see a sentence reading as "Freemasons founded the Bahai movement" in order to come out of your psychic shell, but critical thinking folks don't. Or, maybe you're too afraid of what you mind find, after which you'd discount it as 'LaRouche'-ite conspiracy theory.

[dafedge2007]

I read it. That quote does not occur at all. If you're going to just make stuff up, this conversation isn't worth getting involved in...

[dafedge2007]

And you're going to have to be more specific on Caroll Quigley. After browsing both The Anglo American Establishment and Tragedy and Hope, neither of these mention the Baha'i Faith. Where, exactly, did he mention the Baha'i Faith was part of the British Conspiracy he had seen?

[RevoltAgainstLies]

And you're going to have to ***READ*** Quigley for yourself, rather than "browsing" said texts for your key words. There are apt references in his works to the occult 'means' employed by said European elites in propping up counter-political movements via the use of cults.

[dafedge2007]

Look, you are claiming that the Baha'i Faith specifically is part of this plan. You have yet to produce any evidence that the Baha'i Faith is part of this plot that doesn't come from an organisation that wasn't carrying out a pogrom against it.

And you are gleefully misrepresenting the views of researches in the area so it fits your narrative of the "New World Order".

[RevoltAgainstLies]

"Argue facts, not prejudice"?!? This, from someone claiming the validity of a religious belief?!? What "facts" are you ultimately swearing by -- that your religion is the 'chosen one' of the age, as is its founder? 'Pass the dutchie on the left hand side' indeed...............

[dafedge2007]

For someone claiming that a religion is a secret plot from the British Government to take over the world, what facts are you presenting? I am not here trying to convert you to my religion, only making sure fiction doesn't fester into fact... For someone who is convinced that my beliefs are simply due to indoctrination, you seem to be freely adjusting the facts to fit your own indoctrination...

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Again, what "facts" are you asserting exactly?!??!?!?!?!?!?!? You discount the claims and sources I forward, but remain inept in your arguments.

[dafedge2007]

Wait a second. You're the one making assertions here. I'm just pointing out that you're wrong. But if you want, the only thing I have asserted so far is that there has been a pogrom carried out by the governments of Iran to destroy the Baha'i Faith. The evidence for this is pretty overwhelming, and I'm sure even your meager research skills could find those.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Your "pointing out" is an assertion. How am I wrong? Claims of "conspiracy theory" no longer stick. I'm talking about VIABLE HISTORY, not the propaganda you've been raised on. And I NEVER argued that Iran never targeted Bahais; I'm just elucidating as to what their motivations and perceptions were, are and will be. You're clearly not able to look upon this issue impartially and with sobriety.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Research the esoteric backgrounds of Al-Afghani, E.G. Browne, Edward Bulwer-Lytton, and most certainly Lord Curzon during his tenure in Egypt. Also, how and why did one of your cult's founders, AbdulBaha, get *knighted by the Queen of England* (!!!). Coincidence, i'm sure?!?

[dafedge2007]

And here you expose your ignorance. Abdu'l Baha was not a founder of my religion (only Baha'u'llah and the Bab can claim that title) but he was the Center of the Faith after the passing of Baha'u'llah. He was knighted for helping to ease a famine in Palestine during World War I, but of course, you're going to claim that was all a cover up because heaven forbid anyone in this world should actually help their fellow man.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

No ignorance whatsoever. He was one of the core initial three figures of that 'religion', with deep contacts in London. He sent his grandson to Oxford, for Pete's sake. Quit avoiding the "how and why" I asked above with facetiousness that covers up YOUR ignorance, let alone fear of the Truth. How far back do your movement's founders go with the elite in London (I'm certain the contacts stretch back further than Abdul Baha)? Would you even know where to look, let alone care to?

[RevoltAgainstLies]

"...Sir 'Abbas Effendi 'Abdu'l Baha had travelled extensively in Europe and America to expound his doctrines, and on the 4th December, 1919, was created by King George V. a K.B.E. for valuable services rendered to the British Government in the early days of the Occupation....." - The handbook of Palestine By Harry Luke, Edward Keith-Roach, p. 59.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Odd. No reference to 'easing famines' by abdulbaha in that entire book, which, although would've certainly been commendable, wouldn't *necessarily* qualify for K.B.E. status unless there were OTHER, MUCH MORE presumably 'weighty issues' involving 'service' to the British Crown in turn of the century Palestine. No?

[dafedge2007]

Actually, this says exactly what I said. Services rendered to the British Government in the early days of the occupation, namely helping to end a famine...

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Some obscure cult, barely a few decades old, gets honored by the British Government itself (which has been on record for its colonial adventures abroad), and that's NOT supposed to be at least a hint of deeper issues between the two entities? You don't have a pot to piss in.

[dafedge2007]

Al-Afghani = not a Baha'i (unless you're talking about a different one than Jamal-al-Din-Afghani)

Edward Bulwer-Lytton = not a Baha'i (trust me, the Baha'i would be yelling at the top of their voices if the guy who penned "it was a dark and stormy night" was a Baha'i. We tried to claim Ogden Nash when he had a poem that included the word Baha'i)

Lord Curzon = not a Baha'i

claims made up of whole cloth. Coincidence?

[RevoltAgainstLies]

OF COURSE those *Illuminists* WEREN'T Bahais, genius!!! They were, however, the masons and/or deployed operatives (in Al-Afghani's case) who helped set up said movement in Persia, and liaised with its founders both directly AND indirectly. Ever heard the phrase "divide and conquer"?!?

[RevoltAgainstLies]

"To understand what has gone on in Iran, one must read what Robert Dreyfuss wrote..." - Empress Farah Diba Pahlavi, referencing the text, 'Hostage To Khomeini', back in 1980. Tell us, dafedge2007, since when did the widow of the late Shah of Iran join the LaRouche movement?!? Hmmmmmmm?!?!?!?

[dafedge2007]

Wait a second. I've already discredited this one. The Hostage of Khomeini provides exactly two sources to support it's claims about the Baha'i Faith. One was the Iranian government, who were responsible for a pogrom to destroy the Faith. The other was the Turkish Ottoman Government, which was responsible for holding Baha'u'llah in jail for most of his life. Explain to me how this makes either source reliable.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

?!? So oppressing Bahaism is PROOF that said sources are necessarily discreditable? In that case, why would the LaRouche-ites necessarily want to contribute to said oppression? What beef would THEY have? Said book is a history of British/European CORE involvement in Mid-Eastern political movements that led to Khomeini-ism (P.S. Dreyfuss didn't write said book in approval of Islamic theocracy, but as criticism, capiche?).

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Also, Dreyfuss relied upon the kind of source information that William Engdahl does: Classified info from those privy to secret society plans (again, READ Quigley). You will have to rely upon your impartial critical thinking skills and GENUINE "personal investigation of truth", rather than a cult-tainted eye. Research Freemasonry and its history in North Africa & Southwest Asia.

[dafedge2007]

Dude, I really am tired of this. I have pointed out that you have deliberately misrepresented the views of some of your sources, and out right lied about others. The only sources you have given in defense of your ideas are sources that were actually persecuting the Baha'is. I don't trust Hitler's records of the Jews in Germany either, for the same reason. Why did the LaRouche Movement use those sources? Because it supported the political point they were trying to make, regardless of the truth.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

"Dude", what are you tired of, exactly? Critical thought and dialogue? I know Bahais aren't used to reading history, political science, philosophy and the occult (most go into 'safer' areas without controversies like engineering, medicine, IT, etc., in order to avoid such details), but indulge yourself a bit away from the herd. There are more and more sources by the year revealing the duplicitous roots of your movement, but you'll continue to live in abject denial.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Umm, you're equating the LaRouche movement with the nazis?!? Boy, you need to read more than I thought. If anything, those people OPPOSE fascism in any and all of its 'manifestations' (pun intended), and Dreyfuss's book foremost targeted the Western Elite as founders of Khomeinism. The Bahai stuff was a mere footnote, but you're equating them & its author with mounting a nazi-like crusade against your cult. Talk about 'spiritual arrogance'. THINK, for once.

[dafedge2007]

No, I was equating the pogrom of the Iranian government against the Baha'is with that of the Nazis.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Why, then, did you assume that the mullahs in Iran practically OK'd the writing of Dreyfuss's book?!? Do you have proof of that? Or is anyone who writes about Bahaism in a fashion that counters how it wishes to be portrayed -- immediately an 'agent of Iran'?

[dafedge2007]

Where did I say that? What I said is that Dreyfuss uses that as his only source to back up his assertion that the Baha'i Community was founded by Freemasons, and that you can't trust that source. They have an inherent interest in providing a rational for their own violence.

That Dreyfuss would present that as evidence, his ONLY evidence, basically undermines any faith you should have in his assertions. It's like writing an account of the holocaust, and the only evidence had was Mein Kampf.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Dreyfuss doesn't use the mullahcracy of Iran as either his backers, or as core providers of evidence for his text. He relied upon source materials not privy to most historians, which came from rogue masons. Also, the Shah's wife, last i checked, was not a IRI supporter.

Lastly, I didn't just list Dreyfuss, but other sources that beg the question. You, however, have tried to refute without any substance, just proclaiming "you're wrong"...which is so typical of cult followers.

[Hurakhsh]

Pogrom? Where?? Only 200 sum Bahaim have been killed by this regime since 1979 most of them for various economic crimes and not religious reasons. Yet you cultists keep insisting to the world there has been a pogrom and genocide against you in Iran where there has been none.

[dafedge2007]

If they were executed for economic crimes, as you claim, then why were they all given the chance to recant their religion and be totally forgiven of their crimes. This seems counter intuitive if their execution was due to their financial crimes.

As for only 200, you also forget the other facets of the pogrom, that include the denial of Baha'is to the right to an education, to marriage and to an occupation in Iran.

[Hurakhsh]

You also forget that it has been your UHJ who has continuously disallowed average people from dissimulating and leaving via airports at the threat of sanctions, thus closing all avenues for the Baha'is themselves. It is as if you people in the West want persecution of average joe Iranian Baha'i to keep your HR sound bites relevant in the West.

But, withal, there still has been no pogrom or genocide in Iran against Baha'is. As long as they don't proletyze, people still lived there and thrived.

[Hurakhsh]

Lived and thrived until the IRG coup d'etat of this last June whereby the entire nation of Iran is now held hostage by this regime. So you Baha'i cultists are not unique here. And, again, you have 7 people in jail and raise a ruckus all around the place. There are presently tens of hundreds, if not thousands, of dissidents in prison, maimed and brutalized following the June/July crackdown!

Sorry, but you Baha'is are not special!

[dafedge2007]

I'm tired of trying to critically engage with someone who has no compunctions about lying when it serves his purpose. You have deliberately misrepresented the viewpoints of several researchers, and outright lied about the contents of essays by Juan Cole. It's not a dialogue if you are not playing fair with facts.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

How would you critically engage ANYONE, when you're taking as a *given* that your secretively run (from atop) movement is NOT a political movement? You are coming from the POV of a religious assertion, which is inherently - and definitively - noncritical in nature, owing more to fantasy.

[dafedge2007]

noncritical? You keep lying about what is in the sources you're using, and you accuse me of being noncritical? You still have not answered to the fact that you outright lied about what Juan Cole said. Or misrepresented what Nikki Keddie wrote. I have been a mile more critical than you have been.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

Why exactly was Juan Cole excommunicated from your cult?

P.S. Look up the word "critical".

[dafedge2007]

And again, you don't actually reply to the fact that you have outright lied about what your sources are saying.

And again, Dreyfus is privy to secret sources, that only he is privy to, so we have to trust him, and to earn our trust he quotes the records of the group who have been murdering the Baha'is.

Look up the word "non-critical". I think you meet the criteria.

[dafedge2007]

And Juan Cole, who, as you said, was excommunicated.

This is the guy who you think supports your bizarre little delusion that the Baha'is are a masonic institution founded by the British government.

Uh yeah. He claims he still has a personal belief in Baha'u'llah, even though he doesn't believe in the institutions. This doesn't sound like the actions of a guy who supports your little delusion.

[Hurakhsh]

Juan Cole was not excommunicated. He resigned of his own volition from your NWO cult. It is unfortunate that he continues to believe in the imposter you call a manifestation of God, but then again Cole never claimed infallibility, so the man is entitled to his delusions regarding Husayn 'Ali Nari.

[dafedge2007]

You're right. He wasn't excommunicated (the Baha'i equivalent is being declared a Covenant Breaker). He did, however, have his voting rights removed, but this is not the same. Thank you for the correction.

The point being made was that Juan Cole's writings were being used as evidence of the Baha'i Faith = Freemason conspiracy, which does not seem to fit with the publicly stated beliefs of Juan Cole. If he thought the Baha'i Faith was all one big British conspiracy, then this would be very odd.

[Hurakhsh]

And in Modernity & Millenium as well as the earlier IJMES articles that preceded it, the connections of Baha'ism with Iranian Masons such as Mirza Malcolm Khan, Akhundzadeh and SJD Afghani are detailed extensively.

You have no freakin' idea what you're talking about here. Go back to your fireside/RUHI indoctrination regarding the rosey picture of your cult.

[dafedge2007]

What you are doing is confusing two meanings of the word influence. When used in context, Cole never implies that these "connections" were any formal conspiracy. What he says in Modernity and Millennium is that there were antecedents for many of the major ideas in the Faith in the Middle East, but also that Baha'u'llah's ideas also affected the society that surrounded him, but at no time does he accuse the Faith as being cohorts of these organisation. This is called equivocation.

[wahidazal]

You use the word conspiracy. I call it linkage, as does Cole. And with linkage (rather than conspiracy) there is no equivocation. Cole does indeed detail the linkages of Husayn 'Ali and his various hangers-on with the said individuals who were associated with said organization.

Back to RUHI 1 for you.

[dafedge2007]

Actually the word linkage has exactly the same difficulty as influence, with two meanings that exist in both a general and specific sense. I think if you're trying to make the case here, you should give a more specific example.

[wahidazal]

Ok. Here are specific examples: Wellesley Tudor Pole which you seem to want to skirt around. Mirza Malkolm Khan. Akhundzadeh and Seyyed Jamaluddin Asadabadi-Afghani.

[dafedge2007]

That's because the three you mention at the end were not Baha'is. They were early Persian Freemasons, but the one recorded meeting between Mirza Malkolm Khan and Baha'u'llah was Baha'u'llah rejecting Khan's offer for a deal. There is, however, a document from the 1890's where the freemasons you mention talk about the Baha'is and state outright that no Baha'is are a member of that organisation.

[Hurakhsh]

It is not remotely relevent whether these individuals were not Baha'is themselves. The issue is one of linkages, and the linkages are there and well known.

Furthemore, there is no genuine Masonic document of which you speak.

[wahidazal]

Major Wellesley Tudor Pole was a prominent British Baha'i occultist, spiritualist and Freemason who was the officer in charge of 'rescuing' Abbas Effendi and recommending his subsequent knighthood. During WWII Pole was responsible for the British occult war effort. His career is also marred by the who's who of British imperial policy.

Given this, it is pretty obvious you have no clue what you're talking about and are merely rehashing the sanitized fireside history of your cult.

[dafedge2007]

I would be interested to know where you heard that Abdu'l Baha's knighthood was at the bequest of Tudor-Pole, as I have found no evidence that that is the case, but even if it was this does not prove the central thesis that RevoltAllLies has presented, as Tudor-Pole was born well after the establishment of the Baha'i Faith and therefore no proof that the Baha'i Faith was founded by Freemasons, especially as Tudor-Pole left the Faith in his later years.

[wahidazal]

I found declassified doco in the British National Archives. Documentation I paid for to the UK government. You go do the same, and you'll find the documentation.

Tudor-Pole was a functionary. He was however instrumental in the British/Abbas Effendi line of communication during the war with the Turks and after the British Mandate was established in setting in motion his eventual knighting.

BTW are you answerable to the BAHA'I INTERNET AGENCY? Yes or no?

[dafedge2007]

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific than that, as I have checked the British archives online and there are numerous documents about Tudor-Pole If you are making this assertion, please be more specific as to exactly which document you are referring. Otherwise I have no reason to believe this any more than Dreyfus' documents.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

dafedge2007, you deployed hack and sell-out to all things sacred: Do you contest the fact that Tudor-Pole was both bahai and a freemason? What does it matter *when* Tudor-Pole was born?!? Also, answer that question above about the bahai internet agency, as it could very well bring into serious question YOUR credibility.

[dafedge2007]

I never denied he was a Baha'i. I said he didn't stay a baha'i, which is important because I am setting to disprove your central theorem: The Baha'i Faith was a British plot to overthrow Islam. If so, then why leave the faith?

Why is when he was born important? Because you are trying to establish that the Faith was founded by Freemasons. That a freemason (and again, I have yet to see the evidence he was a mason, just the accusation) was also a Baha'i does not prove your central theory.

[dafedge2007]

And considering the reason that he left the Faith towards the later years of his life was because he was unwilling to give up his interest in spiritualism, this is a rather disingenuous attack. In your argument, he's a bad guy for his interest in spiritualism and occultism, thus tainting the Faith that, as you rightly point out, he played a rather heroic role during World War II. But you don't mention that he leaves the Faith for exactly the same reason you say he tainted the Faith.

[Hurakhsh]

Many left or were otherwise disenfranchised by the official Administrative Cult of Abbas and Shoghi Effendi who were earlier instrumental in setting it up in the West. Kheirullah and Ahmad Sohrab are cases in point, and Mason Remey in the post-Shoghi period. Your argument is tangetial and irrelevent to the central point here.

[giterdun77]

Again, leave "the Faith" or not, these 'spritualists' [I.E. satanists] concocted and promulgated your cult, for very cunning political reasons. Said occult influences DIRECTLY affected bahai from its institutional outset. Tudor Pole then, David Kelly (Mason & Mossad) recently, and Maurice Strong now -- your cult has shrouded in Masonic history, DESPITE IT OFFICIALLY DISALLOWING MASONIC MEMBERSHIP (abject, mindboggling hypocrisy...).

[dafedge2007]

David Kelly converted to the Baha'i Faith very late in his career. In fact, he was only a Baha'i for 4 years before his death. Was he a mason? I don't know, but he could well have been before becoming a Baha'i. The fact that he never held a position of responsibility in the faith makes claims that he had any influence a little disingenuous. The Mossad connection, is quite frankly, something that appears to have been made up to malign him. I have yet to see any evidence of the sort.

[dafedge2007]

As for Maurice Strong, I had no idea he was a Baha'i. The claim seems to have started in an article in the British tabloid the Daily Express, and it may well be true, but the same article also claims he is "the leader of the Baha'i movement in North America" which is provably false, so I wouldn't put much stock in the source here.

[CandlesOfUnity]

@dafedge2007

Maurice Strong ?!! Who is he ? Being a baha'i for decades now, this name does not even rings a bell...

[dafedge2007]

The difficulty is that the arguments tend to be a case of pareidolia, that is, seeing patterns where you want to see patterns. The argument starts "The Baha'i Faith is a tool of the masonic conspiracy" and works backwards from there. Which figures can we find that are already connected to the New World Order conspiracy? So people like Al-Afghani and Mirza Malkum Khan suddenly go from people at odds with the Baha'i Faith to people in cahoots with the Faith,

[RevoltAgainstLies]

dafedge, your further, redundant attempts at avoiding the conspicuous linkages between the early, formative periods of your cult and prominent figures in British Freemasonry border on the comedic. Using the word "patterns" does not mitigate genuine critical thought on the matter, either. Also, your rhetorical skills are humiliating.

[giterdun77]

Not sure what you're looking for in the way of "proof", then, son. Are you expecting a link to a Lodge letter directly to Abbas Effendi? The linkages are FAR TOO STRONG for you to try such sophistry here. Plus, why would *leaving* bahai constitute proof that said linkages are immaterial? Masons SURROUNDED the founding and perpetuation of your cult, and MORE MASONIC LODGES WERE SET UP IN HAIFA THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN ISRAEL in the 19th Century, yet you somehow see it all as coincidence...

[dafedge2007]

Here's the thing. If you connect the dots to people by people who happened to be in the same city at the same time, or who happened to have a single conversation with Baha'u'llah, then of course the linkages are far too strong because the criteria is far to low. Take the Mirza Malkum Khan, a man who Baha'u'llah outright rejected when they spoke in Akka, but he gets used as evidence on the basis that he talked to Baha'u'llah. Add to that Baha'u'llah's following, and of course people seek him out.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

MULTIPLE masonic names were mentioned, yet you avoid them in your specious argument. TOO MUCH evidence exists, yet you battle against it all with futility. I'm sure Shoghi Effendi's burial in London is immaterial too, right? C.U.L.T.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

"By these means Lord Balfour, Lord Curzon, and others in the Cabinet were

advised as to the critical situation at Haifa. Lord Lamington's influence

proved of special help at this time. The upshot of these various

activities bore fruit, and the Foreign Office sent a despatch to General

Allenby instructing him to ensure the safety of 'Abdu'l-Baha and His family

and entourage so soon as the British Army captured Haifa." - (Signed) W. Tudor-Pole. The Chosen Highway, p. 221.

[dafedge2007]

I never denied his actions were critical to saving Abdu'l Baha while in captivity. The claim was that Tudor-Pole was responsible for earning him a knighthood, which has not been proven. Except by a document wahidazul claims to have in his possession, I have seen no other claim of proof of this.

[Hurakhsh]

Now you're backtracking. You don't deny Tudor-Pole was instrumental in saving Abbas Effendi. You also can't deny that the man was a lifelong British occultist, spiritualist and Freemason. Given the centrality of Tudor-Pole in these elite circles, essentially you are agreeing with the central thesis of Dreyfuss, yet you raise hubris -- and even LIE about what he says on a certain page of his book.

Yup, RUHI and BIA circular argumentation.

[dafedge2007]

I can't deny he was a spiritualist and an occultist, but those words are so deliberately vague as to be essentially meaningless. Anyone watching this video can probably be categorised an occultist for having an interest in New World Order conspiracies, but that is neither here nor there. You have still not shown he was a freemason, but even if you did that is neither here nor there. I know a lot of atheists, but that doesn't make me an atheist. This argument is classic guilt by association.

[Hurakhsh]

No, they are not meaningless or vague. It is typically disengenuous of you Baha'is to say so. But nevertheless they mean real things.

[giterdun77]

dafedge, "the oneness of humanity", and "new world order" are also "so deliberately vague as to be essentially meaningless". And yet, your cult uses said words to proselytize to the naïve, not also sharing that they MATCH FREEMASONIC BELIEFS. And don't equate viable, systemic, documented freemasonic goals with garden-variety 'feel goodism' spirituality, you hack. You are drowning in the material presented here, but are in abject denial, or worse.

[dafedge2007]

Agreed, they are so vague as to be essentially meaningless, which is why people have been able to twist the meaning so that people can misrepresent those beliefs as a belief in fascist superstate. That is why I would encourage you to read the details of how Baha'is propose to bring about the oneness of humanity. I would do it here, but unfortunately being limited to 500 characters makes it a bit hard. There are plenty of videos made on youtube that do an admirable job, however.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

National Socialists and Leninists both claimed that they'd bring about a better world, too. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", indeed. Who cares what your indoctrinated verbiage claims? Haven't you ever read viable history and philosophy?

[RevoltAgainstLies]

dafedge, i would hope that you'd know the political history of Balfour, Curzon, their links to the Rothschilds, and the very political founding of the modern state of Israel, which is a continuing freemasonic experiment. Your tepid accusations of "conspiracy theory" seem to be waning by the posting...

[dafedge2007]

What you have created is a conspiracy theory, by definition. The question is does it carry any weight? At the moment, all you have given is proof is that certain freemasons in the Middle East were influenced by the Baha'i Faith, something that does not prove anything about your central theory. The other proofs you have given come from sources (like the Dreyfus document and government allegations) that fall apart under critical scrutiny.

[giterdun77]

No, the other way: What freemasons created was "The Bahai Faith". There is TONS of evidence, yet your ilk will continue to deny it for political purposes. Don't think that the wider world is fooled, though. BTW, the claim that Mossadegh was ousted by the CIA? Was, too considered a "conspiracy theory" decades ago. Lastly, you cannot - in a million years - provide the supposed type of "proof" that you're requesting here to prove the claims made by your cult to be abject truth. Pot, meet Kettle.

[wahidazal]

I don't have to be specific anything to you, especially since most of this information was already on the Wikipedia article before your BAHAI INTERNET AGENCY hacks took it down.

Also your attribution of certain statements to Dreyfuss occuring on p. 117 of his book is an outright lie. No such statements exist, or you have not read him carefully.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

"Through friends associated with the Baha'i Cause in England, an independent

avenue of approach to the ruling powers in London was discovered.

Continued -

[dafedge2007]

Hey man, interesting video, and you seem to be a little anxious about the relationship between the Baha'i Faith and the New World Order. I understand the anxiety, but let me reassure you that in terms of the Baha'i vision of world unity, there is no tolerance for enforced adherence or compunction when it comes to matters of religion.

This is not a vehicle for an elitist New World Order, but a faith that calls upon individuals to do what they can to end the disunity that affects us.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

That 'religion' was founded in Freemasonry, and there is plenty of parallel teachings that it shares with illuminati teachings. Also, the late David Kelly, who was a Bahai, also had worked for the Mossad. Most/all Bahais like dafedge are deceived by rose-colored glasses, and have not studied viable history and the occult.

[Chriscom28]

Most interesting. Would like to look into the similarities with the Illuminati some time. I was interested in reading some of the Illuminati works a while ago, but was unable to find any good translations.

[dafedge2007]

If I can offer a challenge: Look into the methods of election in the Baha'i community.I think the share fact that Baha'is use an open democratic election process would make it pretty much impossible to pursue the nefarious ends of the Illuminati. After all, if the next election means that literally anyone could be a member of the administration, it pretty much forbids the type of secrets required for a secret society.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

dafedge, that is not a viable 'challenge', merely because you are unaware of what such secret orders are, and how they operate. "Free elections" in so-called democratic societies are a ruse, whereas private, monied oligarchies tend to truly rule. Viable discourse isn't allowed in the Bahai organization, and dissent is suppressed promptly, regardless of elections.

[dafedge2007]

Then you haven't actually studied the Baha'i system of elections. Go research it, rather than spouting off the top of your head. I agree that the current election system in most countries are subject to money interests. There are significant fail safes in the Baha'i system that prevent this.

Go research it and actually know what you're talking about before you talk about secret orders.

[RevoltAgainstLies]

I know what I'm talking about, and have done more research than you can possibly imagine. Rather than rely upon your indoctrinating sources, try studying the history of Freemasonry and English/European subversions in 19th Century Persia. Google: "the salafi", "bahai" and "illuminati" and read away...

[wahidazal]

The Baha'i system of elections is the Soviet model, and your system is Stalinism with God. Now what was your point, again, exactly? That the sun shines out of your cult's backside?? Sorry, I am an ex-Baha'i and one of the most prominent online critics of your cult. Nothing shines out of your backsides and the system of your elections other than pure crud.

[Chriscom28]

Well I never thought of Bahai being part of the Illuminati. I thought possible that it's philosophy may have inspired the Bahai, but calling it a secret society. I feel compelled to look into the structure of Bahai more closely. Though a lot of things interest me and I find it hard to focus on one task. There's probably a bit of ADD in me.

[wahidazal]

Democratic elections? The Baha'i faith?? Surely you jest. The democratic nature of Baha'i elections is as democratic as Syria or Stalinist Russia. You cultists deluding yourselves otherwise.

[dafedge2007]

The name for this type of attack is Ad Hominem, where instead of referring to the actual details of how the election is run, you verbally attack the organisation. It's a rather crude way to deflect from the actual topic itself.

[wahidazal]

Your designation of ad hominem to my characterization of Baha'i (s)elections as ad hominem is an argumentative fallacy since Stalinism describes a real system and a real process. Your RUHI answers are truly pathetic.

[Chriscom28]

I am an anxiety prone man, though my anxiety about the Bahai is as bout as much as the anxiety for my local chip shop. I was merely exploring the Bahai's view on the new world order. It's an interest of mine sparked by a disagreement with a friend.

[wahidazal]

No forced compunction, you say. I beg to differ and there is a long documented history proving you and your sectarian propaganda otherwise.

Also, multiplicity is the ontological nature of the world. Your inorganic unity qua uniformity is a species of Fascism, and as such your unity by conformity will be resisted by all means necessary -- and when the time arrives, even by violent resistance!

DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER AND BAHA'I WHORE OF BABYLON!

[dafedge2007]

Wow, I'm supposedly the fascist, but you're the one calling for the death of my religion.

Look up the words cognitive dissonance.

[Hurakhsh]

Your religion is a dangerous cult like Scientology not a real religion.

[wahidazal]

Yes, you are an unapologetic Fascist just as all brainwashed RUHI drones are. Look up cognitive dissonance yourself.

[dafedge2007]

And here we have Ad Hominem again.

[wahidazal]

Good on you. We're just throwing your own Ad Hom back at you with interest. It is a common tactic of you cultists and testimony to your double standards in that you ad hom all and sundry and then complain about it when your BS is thrown back into your lying faces. Deal with it! I'm sure RUHI 2 covers this.