Dan Barker says rape could be moral!

[thecenter26]

To answer you question, "What happens when a person exalts his free will over yours?"...well, the world we live in happens. Those of you who are trying to change the way things are by enacting laws and trying to control people are helplessly trying to take away the free will that God himself has given us. Even if I have read the parts of the bible where God has LIMITED himself, that doesn't mean that I am closed minded enough to believe everything that I read to be Gods gospel Truth.

[thecenter26]

I am saying that God allows us to exercise our free will. We can do anything we want. Yet, humans think that they should limit others ability to choose what they want to do by law. I have read most of the bible, and I have to say that it can't be Gods word. Sorry to burst your proverbial bubble.

[thecenter26]

This isn't about defining morality, it is about exalting a system of beliefs. God has given us free will, so why not allow every human to exercise that free will just as God does?

[neonleonification]

@thecenter26 Apparently you haven't read the parts of the bible where God has LIMITED himself to his word. Sorry to burst your proverbial bubble, but there are some things God cannot do i.e. God cannot lie among a list of other things. If you really believe human's should just exercise their freewill then what happens when a person exalts his free will over yours, what happens when a person forces his free will into your home and steals and kills?

[RandomNonsence]

for you theists this is a hypothetical situation. Some catholics really rape kids, so to say this and that about atheists based upon a hypothetical situation is ignorant. However, Dan Barker was totally wrong and forced himself into a morally wrong stance just to not agree . If those aliens said that to me, I would say, sorry you have the wrong person EVEN if that ment world destruction. Not even once to save billions. Murder in some cases is morally subjective, rape/pedophilia is not!

[VitalSigns1]

2 million girls to save 6 billion people? No fucking way. He should have stopped at 2,000.  Rape is much more harmful than death.

[okpapereat]

Look the bottom line for me yes rape is nasty and sick but when you are able to save humanity i think its ok. Remember the gift of life is precious and you have to life life to to fullest extent i would be pretty pissed off if some aliens comes to blow up our planet. And remember just a touch is considered raped you dont have to go full on and that touch is pretty small compared to 6 billions peoples life at risk

[okpapereat]

to me i would if it was the only option to me thats moral to save everyone on earth, because if you think about it 1 person gets raped and then if you dont how many billions of people die because of you. but i dunno great philoshpical question.

[wokkitout]

also, please watch some more of dan barkers speeches or debates. he's always the calmer person and never gives a smart ass remark. he seems like a good person, but people edit videos like this one because they have nothing else on him. barker (in my opinion), is probably one of the nicest "leading" atheist. butt got off easy.

[wokkitout]

i've seen this whole debate, it's pretty good. kyle butt seems new to debating, smart ass remarks, but no facts. i hope you watch this entire debate before making a judgment on dan barker. the title is "debate on the existence of god" dan barker vs kyle butt. the channel is apologeticpress. nothings edited or has a bias title. i think the uploader did watch the entire thing, that's why its edited. i have it in my playlist if anyone cares to watch it.

[SoSaCA100]

this sick atheist again,what's the problem with atheist don't they have any moral,just watching them proves devolution.they are devolving to animals.or even worse

[LinktothepastZ]

All actions that are considered immoral (rape, murder, ect.) cause suffering. Raping one girl (or two thousand for that matter) would cause less suffering than killing six billion humans.

So I wouldn't say that in that situation it would be perfectly morally right to rape, but it would definately be necessary and lesser of the two evils.

[Sockpuppet2012]

The Atheist didn't get owned, he got RAPED!!!!

[kapt1948]

God doesn't have a problem with rape, murder, killing children, killing women, sacrifices of animals and people, destroying every single person and animal on the earth, slavery, etc, The list goes on and on and on. Morality from god? Bullshit!

[bieberbazzejunge]

1. [if there is a] GOD (noone can prove/disprove) who has given us RULES/COMMANDMENTS (that's what our morality comes from) doesn't have to have these standards. It's a logical point that too many atheists just forget when they're criticizing the belief in GOD, theism or christianity/islam etc. If you don't get this point please write me and I'll explain it to you in detail.

2. Please tell me the name of the god who doesn't have a problem with rape, murder and all the other things you listed?

[beksinski]

Thank goodness for the courage of Dan Barker.

[bibleapologetics]

Yes, he's brave enough to rape and molest children. I don't think that's a good thing. But, uh, yeah, that's courageous.

[Naked4Jesus]

This is a sneaky argument made by Butt (the christian) since he sneaks in his god as a pressupposition at the end. Essentially he led Dan Barker into an argument of life versus death and then snuck in that his (christian's) morality is greater because, though he didn't mention a god and afterlife before, since a god exists he could "hold his moral ground" let everyone die, and not have to "rape" anyone since they'll (all those who died) will be in heaven: "I know that after this life"

[Naked4Jesus]

Since bibleapologetics cut the video off BEFORE Dan Barker could respond, I'll clue you in on what Dan said right after. Dan responded by saying, "YOU DON'T KNOW THAT" to point out that Butt (the Christian) was pressupposing that there was a heaven and a god without making a case for one and without having mentioned it earlier in his argument so that Dan wouldn't be able to stop him before he could deliver his sneaky rhetoric.

[bibleapologetics]

Uh, okay, Barker said, "You don't know that. And Butt said, "Yes, i do." Gee, that's helpful to put in. You're a numbskull.

[wokkitout]

i noticed that too. bibleapologetics should show the part when butt get's boo'd for trying to put words in dans mouth about abortion.

[diuryl]

wow, that atheist got PWNED!!!!

[wreckdirect]

honestly we would all be fools to let an alien race make us hurt our own female speices hopefully we would stand and die together as a race

[TheOriginalOwnage]

I hate Christians like this guy cause they make all off us look like crazy. dumbass, mother fuckers who twist your words. Fuck him. Fucking douche.

[cjhindma]

LOL. I am curious. Considering the emotion you put into this, or rage, would you have been christian at sometime in your life? Because i think the majority of people who are on this kind of stuff were Christians at one time. Definitely not a fact there, but I used to be and it is just what i've observed. Am I kind of right people?

[TheOriginalOwnage]

I still am a Christian, I'm just not insane.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

TheOriginalOwnage - I pray that one day you DO become a born-again Christian. Whatever your beliefs are currently, they are not from GOD or in the Bible.

JESUS is the only way my friend.

[TheOriginalOwnage]

Uhh dude, I am a born-again Christian, I accepted that Jesus Christ is my savior and into my heart, and his blood cleansed me of my sins, I've been baptized also. See, you're judging me, instead of letting God do it, do you think you know better than God? I don't think you do. So stop jumping on peoples backs and assuming things and just love people, because God loves us all equally. See, I'm just following God's Holy Word, and letting my faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit guide me.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

Judging....no. I can't "see" you, but can only perceive "the fruit of a tree". You aren't "bearing the fruit" of a born-again Christian.

Claiming rape is moral & cursing like a sailor are giving me the impression that you are not repentant each day.

You claim to be "following GOD'S Word", yet claim rape is moral and are cursing at other youtubers. You are either lying about following the Word of GOD, or not reading it and interpreting it to your own set of beliefs.

[TheOriginalOwnage]

I never claimed rape was moral, its as if you discredited my opinion because of my language, and then turned around and said I wasn't a Christian as if you know who I am. Maybe its yourself you need to refine (just as I do), instead of picking out other peoples problems. Maybe you should compliment people instead of taking it onto yourself to JUDGE THEM and fix their problems.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

GOD indeed does love us, but we ALL need to turn from our wicked ways and follow Him; not our own idea of what "good" is.

GOD bless you my friend. And yes, love comes in form of correction too.

Proverbs 14:16

A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

[TheOriginalOwnage]

You don't know me, think what you want. We all have problems but you're perfect.

[nblax41]

The title of this video is deffiantly missleading. Rape can absolutly be moral, it all dependst on the rapists personal morals. Whats immoral or moral is subjective to the observers of the event/action. Second, comparing the rape of 2 million girls to the holocost is rediculous. Rape itself never kills anybody unless they're an infant. If aliens were going to destroy humanity unless these women were raped, they would most likely agree, thus making it consensual, voiding the christians example

[OsakaChiyoDestroyU]

of course it's misleading, how else would one possibly convey something as ridiculous as apologetics except through deceptive means?

[cjhindma]

Yes i agree. I love how they put so much of that, "OH! what now audience, He can't answer that can he." into it. They say it and look away like they've already defeated everything there is to rival it.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

You have never gone through rape then.

Rape kills the everything but the body. The victim who once was, is no longer there. By mental anguish of the brutal remembrance, death is often wished for.

You- "Rape can absolutly be moral, it all dependst on the rapists personal morals."

I'm praying for you right now; rape is NEVER EVER, EVER MORAL.

GOD loves you my friend. Leave the hellish road you're choosing to follow. You just said "rape is moral".

JESUS loves you.

[TheOriginalOwnage]

But with Jesus Christ anything is possible, so a rape victim can overcome these feelings of sarrow so she can live without any mental anguish. I'm not saying rape is right, just that the victims aren't necessarily going to live in mental anguish of a brutal remembrance no matter what.

[nblax41]

Im antitheist, save the Jesus stuff for someone who wants it. This question was hypothetical. In theory, it could be moral. Im not saying it is.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

That's a contradiction.

"In theory, it could be moral. Im not saying it is."

So there's a 0.01% chance (extremely rare let's say) that it COULD be moral. Correct?

Than you ARE saying it's moral! No matter how small it is to you, you are still saying "yes".

It's like you ask your waiter, "Is there any cyanide in my soup?" And the waiter said, "There's 0.01% cyanide in your soup." Would there be cyanide in your soup? YES! Although very small, IT STILL HAS CYANIDE.

[nblax41]

The cyanide analogy is good, but 0.01% isnt enough to hurt you unless it's a swimming pool of soup/cyanide. You also need to consider what I wrote in my first post, that morals are only determined by the individuals involved in an action or event. The tribes of South America have morals that differ from yours and mine by many extremes, but none of them have a problem with it. Only we do because we feel the need to force our beliefs on to others; take your Christian churches for example.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

It's an analogy; soup/cyanide has effect only on 1 person. In this case we're talking about 1 person deciding the outcome of many.

Yes, some people in some places cannibalize and think nothing of it, and then some people in the SAME AREAS don't do it. Strange? No. What's the difference? One KEEPS the MORALITY of GOD (it is written on our hearts) and the others have developed their own ideas.

This is not to say anyone is "perfect". ALL are rebellious; some are just much MORE than others.

[nblax41]

No, one has the MORALITY that YOUR PEOPLE instilled in them. The others are untouched by your religion and still hold the values that they themselves decided upon.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

How do you know (for a fact) that the morality of GOD (the only one) hasn't given them THE SAME morality as you and I?

FOR A FACT, how do you know?

[nblax41]

Because murder, cannibalism and rape are all part of their culture. If they didnt find them moral they would have punishments for these acts, but intead they are praised. The ones who have seen missionaries are the only ones who mimic our values and morals.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

Again, how do you know (for a fact) that all of those things you mentioned (even IF they are a part of someone's culture), that in their hearts, they don't FEEL it's wrong?

Many do it, but many don't like it happening.

The Mayans for instance; they sacrificed TONS of people & many by tearing out their hearts. But isn't it strange that they didn't sacrifice their OWN people, but the nearby tribes who they warred with & taken as slaves?

And there were no Christians.

[TheLORDismySheperd1]

And JESUS loves you too my friend :)

[TheOriginalOwnage]

I didn't reply to you, now did I?

[nblax41]

musta fucked up, sorry brah

[cjhindma]

This is some twisted questioning, I hate how christians do this. Then ignorant people are led to think that they said something smart. Twisted Twisted Twisted.The baby analogy was very good. But you can see that Barker is answering with intention to say he would do what the mindset of the people are. Would You belittle a person on stage to lead people to "Jesus" and save them? Think about that one. I hope you do go away to some better place.

[TheOriginalOwnage]

Dude, I'm a Christian and i thought the first question was completely bullshit, I'm commenting after only hearing that one question though so thats why I'm only including that one.

[RSstupidrules]

you hate how christians do this? i think you mean "I hate how an extremely small percentage of christian fundamentalists" do this

[TheOriginalOwnage]

That is what he should have said.

[cjhindma]

This question is an oxymoron. If rape was moral, then it would not be rape and it would not exist, duh.

[ffcloud321]

Both of these men are stupid.

If aliens really came to earth and said rape a woman to save the species, I doubt the woman would say no at that point, but comparing Nazi Germany to a ??hypothetical alien invasion/stag film??

I mean this is as stupid as the would you fuck bill gates for a billion dollars argument.

I called upon the name of the lord and saw nothing, I then called upon the name of science and what was known was revealed.

I see now that god is too good to be true.

Your all insane

[adstanra]

" I know that I have somewhere better to go after this life". So, he wouldnt even lie to save this life? this is the danger of moral absolutism ! but i am sure that he is being dishonest. He would lie to save his own daughter from being raped for eg.

[adstanra]

yes quite right. Raping a betrothed vs unbetrothed woman is handled qute differently. If the woman is unbetrothed, the man has still commited an offence against her father, hence must pay some money to him...and must marry the girl. Sounds great eh!

[arhatcat]

The disgusting thing about Barker is that he is playing to the ill-educated and ignorant. He is lying when he says: "In that weird case, which you and I would never see in our life time.." In fact situations exactly like this come up all the time in the annuls of war crimes, with powerful humans, not ETs(!), abusing other humans who are on the unlucky end of a gun. Why is Barker manipulating his audience with trashy distortions like this, if he is really so confident of his position?

[adstanra]

Would you say it was a "crime" to lie to a nazi about a jew hiding in your closet? The problem is one of definitions. If one is forced to " commit" a lesser " crime" is that " moral" or "immoral". I like your notion of culpability.Your war crimes eg may not be valid. Barker might elect to be shot rather than rape someone..but what if he either rapes or the whole of existence is anihilated. Barker is trying to honestly compliy to the question imagining a possible( unlikely actual) case

[arhatcat]

Barker's so-called situational ethic is a crock. The real issue in such arguments is simply about degrees of culpability (i.e. responsibility and guilt.) A crime is never "moral." A man who commits a crime under duress *still* commits a crime, just that his level of culpability is reduced or absent, while the instigator (be he Alien, Nazi or whatever) carries the *full* moral /crimainal responsibility.

[adstanra]

the instigator may be traced back to God himself. He afterall, if he exists, set the specific constants that define the laws of physics so that a person may be found in a situation where one is forced to choose between two horrible consequenses. It is these laws laws of physics, ultimately, that allow for Hitlers and Stalins to come to power. we may be making progress lately in the west, but most of human history has been the survival of the strongest, the weak dominated by the powerful.

[adstanra]

I cannot imagine any reason to rape in the real world, but in some possible world I think I could. Imagine if the entire universe was to be wiped out if you didn't. It is either you rape some poor woman, or complete annihilation. For the woman that would mean no chance to experience love, beauty,joy. Never to have children or see them again.  wonder what her choice would be?There are millions of women who have been raped who are glad they ae still alive, who have meaningful lives.

[adstanra]

I understand the evolutionary reasons for humans defining " rape is bad/wrong". I understand the emotional gut reaction to this and there are good intellectual reasons to believe that rape is bad for society. Try to imagine a society that believes rape is okay? there would be no social stability ( a requirement to raise big brained primates like us).

this is a silly issue for Peter to raise..huge emotional appeal, poor intellectual value

[BlueLinedOwl]

this is more a utilitarian thing right? Save the majority over the minority? Plus, come on, I've heard worst jokes than that.

[itonlyhappens]

bibleapologetics - in the description of this video you write, "As a moral relativist, Barker cannot deny that rape is absolutely wrong." You may want to take another look at that sentence, I don't think it says what you intended to communicate.

[bibleapologetics]

How didn't it? Barker believes morality is relative. Thus he cannot say that rape is absolutely wrong. Why is that so hard to follow? It's seems simple to me.

[itonlyhappens]

Good, you stated it correctly just now in your reply. But that's not what is stated in your video description. You say the exact opposite when you write "Barker cannot DENY that rape is absolutely wrong". He can indeed deny it, and he does in this video. You may want to change the wording in the description.

[bibleapologetics]

*SIGH* He cannot deny it on ABSOLUTE terms. He can deny it if he wants but only on relative grounds. Get it?

[itonlyhappens]

Your use of the phrases "on absolute terms" and "on relative grounds" have no bearing on whether or not Dan Barker can deny something. In your opinion, morals are absolute, with no exceptions, I get it. But Dan Barker believes that there is no such thing as "absolute" morality. Moral decisions can change depending upon the situation. The Christian apologist wants to paint Dan Barker as as morally bankrupt, he asks him about a most extreme example, rape. Continued...

[itonlyhappens]

cont..Rape is a heinous, immoral act. But in the highly unlikely situation described in the video, one is presented with two immoral acts: rape a person, or billions of people die. This doesn't make rape a moral act, but it makes it the more moral choice. A more practical example is Nazi officers at your door asking if Jews are hiding there. Is lying immoral? Yes. Is it worse than sending Jews to their death? No. Therefore, the immoral act of lying becomes the more moral choice. Do you agree?

[Aaberg123]

The right title should be this: Christians says facilitating death could be moral.

Or would you instead do the RIGHT, MORAL thing of LYING, when asked by Nazis if you are hiding Jews in your loft?

Sorry, but objective morality is immoral at its core.

You're quite disingenuous, aren't you?

[bibleapologetics]

I'm quite disingenuous. I guess you only mean that on subjective terms. Here's an objective truth: you're a moron.

[village1diot]

2 possible answers "Yes or No"

No - All of humanity is wiped out, but if there is a heaven, no big deal. If there is no heaven - you made the wrong choice.

Yes - A horrible deed is done, but humanity is saved. Doesn't matter if the heaven claim is true or not.

Are you going to take that big of a risk based on a possibly fictitious claim of there being a heaven.

I certainly hope that if this question were ever asked, a rational person was the one being asked, not this guy.

[village1diot]

Good video until... "Because I know that after this life, I have somewhere much better to go"

There are so many things wrong with that statement.

He doesn't "Know". He can't know. How could he? Has he been dead before? He just believes it and that doesn't make it true.

All of humanity would have been wiped out and you wouldn't thank him? Based on an unproven claim that there is a heaven, because someone told you it exists.

The real question here is...

Is rape worse than murder?

[drcraigvideos]

Thank you for this video! Dan Barker is never good under pressure, and it makes him say rather ridiculous things. I cannot believe people like him can't bring it to themselves to say that rape is absolutely wrong and evil.

[itonlyhappens]

I can't stand this holier-than-thou bullshit. You can argue on these hypothetical moral decisions all day. Sometimes, you just have to choose between the lesser of two evils. OK, Mr. Christian, imagine you have two choices: 1) steal a loaf of bread or 2) let your family starve. Well, it's morally wrong to steal, isn't it? Then, I assume Mr. Christian would let his family starve because, after all, they're going to a better place when they die anyway. Right?

[drcraigvideos]

Well, Mr. Atheist. Seeing how their isn't any moral absolutes in the atheist view, stealing for your families food is just as good (or evil) as letting them starve. In terms of the after life, maybe you should look at my latest video where Dr. Craig argues there's no meaning to life in the atheist's view.

[itonlyhappens]

First, let me apologize for the "Mr Christian" thing - that kind of snarky stuff is not helpful to a discussion. I will be glad to address your points about moral absolutes and the after-life, but you still haven't answered my question - faced with the decision of stealing food or letting your family starve, which is the moral choice? I really want to know what you think.

[drcraigvideos]

I would do neither. I'd beg for food.

[village1diot]

And if no one gave you any? What if the ONLY choices you had were as mentioned?

[itonlyhappens]

OK, fine. I think you evaded the question, but let's move on. You would probably agree that it is immoral to lie, correct? Imagine yourself in Nazi Germany, you have allowed a Jewish family to seek refuge by hiding in your attic. Nazi soldiers are at your door asking if any Jews are in your home. Is it moral to lie to them? Is it a "moral absolute" that lying is always wrong?

[drcraigvideos]

I didn't evade the question. I answered it. You've been doing nothing but asking me questions over and over again. Let me ask you something for a change then. If morality is relative then that means molesting children is worth doing if it brings a greater good, correct?

[itonlyhappens]

I can't think of a practical situation in which molesting a child would bring greater good. Can you? But there are other immoral acts which, depending upon the situation, actually become the morally preferable thing to do. As in the Nazi situation I described above, which I would like to hear your answer to. Lying is usually wrong, but in this situation, it would be the morally right thing to do. Do you disagree?

[drcraigvideos]

itonlyhappens: You can't think of a situation where child molesting would bring a better good? Talk about evading questions. So you think child molestation is *absolutely* wrong then?

[itonlyhappens]

I said that I cannot think of a PRACTICAL situation where child molestation would be the more moral choice. OK, here is a highly unlikely scenario: Imagine you are kidnapped by an evil band of men. You find yourself in a room with 100 people. Your captors give you two choices: 1) you must molest one of the people, or 2) the captors will molest the entire group of 100 people. I believe the better choice is the first. What would you do?

[adstanra]

If there are no conditions that exist in the actual world that would make it moral, then by definition it is absolutely wrong. So what ? That doesn't argue for any god, it's just the laws of physics, which are such that no possible situation exists where child molestation brings about a greater good.There are actual situations where lying,stealing and killing can bring about a greater good( or a lesser bad).That is the point..most things are relative!

[drcraigvideos]

Morality and the laws of physics are two different categories. You're purposely confusing the whole situation by comparing apples and oranges. Next thing you'll say is that the laws of gravity has everything to do with my taste in food.

[adstanra]

no, not at all. the laws of physics and biology have produced conditions where societies that condone rape will not last long. i have no idea what you mean by gravity and taste in food!

[drcraigvideos]

I like how adstanra is trying to revise his statement. After I clobbered him now he's saying "laws of physics AND BIOLOGY" when he first said "it's JUST the laws of physics". Please, try to think things through better before commenting.

[adstanra]

hey dr, the laws of biology follow naturally from the laws of physics and chemistry..whats your point? For instance, humans have a skeleton because of gravity. Ribs to protect our organs from falls caused by gravity, A chest wall that expands creating negative pressure to suck in oxygen, etc.....everything flows from the laws of physics...even the laws of chemistry and biology. i hope this increases your understanding of what I was saying.

[adstanra]

I like the way this channel, bibleapologetics doesn't sensor appropriate opinions just because they are counter to the one he/she espouses.Otherwise, he would just be a propagandist, like yourself evidently. why would you not allow appropriate debate. WLC is all about that .