Of course we see the theme in context - but nothing is out of context. I'm sure Neil is a nice man, who didn't like pre-med students, and made a comment. The comment was out of context from his point, and diminished his point. Wow- a two year old video and still getting comments.
The point of Tyson's outlook is that people are so eager to support their divine beliefs by saying "god cured me" than even open their mind to the fact that the science could have been wrong, meaning either the equipment used had slight mechanical errors, leading the doctor to assume cancer when they didnt have it, or the doctor just wasnt trained properly. But the health part isnt the concern Neil deGrasse Tyson was bringing up it was just one of the many examples which could lead someone to a
I absolutely agree with you. His attack on AMA and "idiot doctors" are entirely uncalled for. A better example would focus on another scientifically plausible explanation which resulted in the statistical outlier, and not God healing the patient. It doesn't matter if he meant to only condemn some idiot physicians. His blatantly negative views on the other academic area is just unprofessional. Also, I think 51 people who downvoted you clearly didn't understand why you were offended. ;)
You have to pay attention, Doctor. He said "Not all of them are smart". Tyson didn't say they're all dumb, he just said that "not all of them are smart".
He also did not condemn all physicians, he simply said that some are not as great as the others, yet the ones who aren't as great are still accounted with the same respect as the great ones. Essentially, if you compare it with physics, it would be like saying every physicist needs the same respect as Albert Einstein had.
Doctors and physicists are both human. I have witnessed a wide range of doctors across mutliple fields and i can say one thing without doubt- Their are great doctors and their are horrible doctors.
I imagine the same holds true for physicists. Neither is in a postion to comment on the validity of wheather an event constitutes the label miracle.
Both should focus on what counts-doing their job to the best of their ability.
I think you may have missed what he was getting it. It wasn't about doctors being stupid. It was about people being more willing to believe in something as unlikely as a miracle from God versus human error.
Tyson might have been better off with some facts and figures if he was trying to prove that these events happen. However, I don't really see him trying to convince people that it actually happens, so much as he's trying to get people to think about it. Most people know that this goes on.
Yeah so the diagnoses is made partially from statistics, that doesn't detract from Tysons actual point, if anything it supports it. I'm sure Tyson would agree that physics is taught mostly the same way, and understands many of the reasons why cancer goes into remission, and so do most of us. So stop being all offended...
@hornetpalooza The difference is most scientists make it clear their best models or explanations are based on current evidence with uncertainties rather than making the public believe something will occur within a definite time scale. If you've read any scientific research papers, words often used by researchers are may, suggests, or further research is needed are commonly used.
The theory of evolution has withstood repeated testing for over a century with very few modifications.
A far greater problem today is hospital acquired infections known by it's technical name " nosocomial infections. " If any of you have recently been to a hospital, it's very likely neither the hospital staff or treating physician(s) informed you of this risk. Yet, the CDC estimates about 100,000 patients die each year from hospital acquired infections in the U.S.
His hypothetical leadup was more meant to show how people who are pre-disposed to religion are more likely to think God cured them than anything else, like they might have had as he said, 3 bad doctors, 1 really good doctor who provided the right regiment of treatment, or they simply had a different type of body compared to the average as everyone is quite different as much as we're all genetically made from the same baseline.
He may have chosen his antecdote a little poorly, but
he was mainly trying to point out that people tend to think in black and white, that no one is perfect, and most people, skeptics and otherwise alike, are no exception. He himself made a rather blunt statement without amending that many doctors are very competent and deserve praise, and you are seeing his blunt statement as a mental/perception flaw.
I'm sure if he was able to just dribble for several days and people would listen, that he would amend that point.
He was not addressing doctors misdiagnosis, but instead criticizing how dumb is for a physician to guess how much time a patient have to live, since that is pure conjectures, there is no single test that you can perform in any disease that will give you that number.
@reafdaw01 Don't feel dismayed. Most physicists have trouble with biology as well. I've heard some physicists make generalized statements about biology that were utterly wrong. Remember, no physicist in history has ever figured out how to defeat mortality. There is no single physics equation which describes the total chemical signaling circuitry of a cell. The complexity is overwhelming. I studied physics and excelled in it.
Tyson is simply pointing out that if a doctor incorrectly estimates the remaining life of a patient, it is an error. There is a very specific reason why the cancer is regressing, and it is most definitely not supernatural. Perhaps we do not know why some cancer will spontaneously cure, as you call it, but the sooner we can stop calling it spontaneous regression, the sooner religious nuts can stop attributing it to magic.
@BenJamminH7 The fact is most cancers spontaneously go into remission and never get to the point where an individuals goes to see a physician. Molecular biologists and immunologist discovered some of the cellular mechanisms for cancers going into remission decades ago. Only recently, through genetically profiling cancers with different tissue origins, have biologist been able to distinquish which cancers are likely to become malignant and which are likely to remain benign.
He didn't say all doctors, he said some, and while anecdotal evidences is generally weak, its sufficient and appropriate to falsify the claim that ALL doctors are perfect, which surely all would agree isn't the case. Anyone can make mistakes, though I don't think "idiot doctor" was a fair phrase. The point he made was that people rarely consider the possibility that a specific medical opinion is in error, which is sadly not true, at all as evidenced by the dangerous prevalence of bogus alt-med.
1) An entire career of teaching physics is more than just a single anecdote. Regardless, anecdotes are facts, albeit weakly conclusive and easily cherry picked.
2) NDT focused on the "stupidity" of doctors (probably for the laughs), but he did mention other reasons for mistakes, like the current limits of our knowledge and educational system.
3) The point was that patients are the really stupid ones for completely accepting the ~6 month diagnosis without caveat or any hint of uncertainty.
It seems like i have to agree with most people here... You took Neil out of context, (for your own personal vendetta I should add) but you are right. Not all people in your profession are dumb. And not all "regressive cancers" were misdiagnosed by doctors. But in the end i say you and Neil are both right! Neils point was that a cancer that remisses isnt a miracle. Your point is the same.
Tyson's video is not about doctors making mistakes, is about religious people irrational way of thinking ("god cures me" makes more sense to them that a doctor making a mistake)
if you get offended by that video is because you didn't undestand it at all
I really like Neil Tyson. I've briefly met him in Utah when he came to lecture here at BYU and I agree with most of his views about the Cosmos and religion. However, I am disheartened by his comment on medicine here. I will give it the benefit of the doubt that this short clip may have been taken out of context, but I do realize medicine is a complicated scientific body, specially dealing with such illnesses such as cancer, etc. I think your response was relevant and fair.
Others here have already stated that you took his comments out of context I will ask a different question. Where in his video did he "condemn the entire profession?"
Neil DeGrasse Tyson wasn't shooting down all doctors; he was saying it's crazy that people jump to a conclusion of "god did it" rather than the conclusion that how much time you have to live is not always exact.
Mimimi detected. "mimimimimi, anectodes, mimimimi, anecdotes...." "Mimimi, I'm so pissed that you said something negative 'bout my so-beloved profession, doctors, are gods, mimimimi, science, mimimi...."
Mimimi detected. "mimimimimi, anectodes, mimimimi, anecdotes...." "Mimimi, I'm so pissed that you said something negative 'bout my so-beloved profession, doctors, are gods, mimimimi, science, mimimi...."
You missed the point of Neil deGrasse Tyson's statement and your desire to seek to take personal offense hindered your ability to notice that you did.
His statement was regarding the predictable irrationality of the religious that allows them to attribute a misdiagnosis as a miracle rather than human error.
You chose to view it as a condemnation of medicine.
Mr. Simpson, I think you posted this video because you just feel personally offended. Tyson may have overdone it, but you summarized his point perfectly between 0:39 and 0:46: it's the religious conclusion of the _patient_, who observed that all the doctors were wrong (and even if they just gave an estimate, out of a range of possibilities in the bell curve, at least the estimate was wrong), that there MUST be a god.
If you think the patient's reasoning is correct, humor me, and explain.
understands that and did not go outta his way is was more of an point against crazy Christians who are invading school with their bible thumping and chest beating and dogma harrassment! I am sorry U felt like your were being attacked and your whole profession! I sir, if you took his point the wrong way I think you are wholly proving his point ! just saying :-)
I love Neil Tyson, but I can see your point. Neil's point, however, was that it wasn't a miracle and since he's not a medical doctor, he just through a random alternative explanation, which is obviously more likely. In fact, the only one that is possible out of those two. What you did here, is offer a better alternative explanation.
Either way his point would not be lost. After all, he wasn't trying to show doctors are stupid. But I can see how you could've been offended.
I agree that in giving a simplistic anecdote, he painted a broad negative swath across the medical profession. while I have my own beefs with the medical profession I wouldn't be prepared to say they're all idiots.. in fact, I'd be willing to wager that if Neil broke his arm or contracted some disease he'd go see one of these so-called doctors himself. Smart guy, just some over bearing arrogant tendancies about him.
You don't understand what he was getting at. Sorry your ego was hurt doctor but he was making the point that people are more willing to attribute something improbably to divine intervention than the more realistic concept that the doctors were just wrong. This was not a condemnation of the entire medical profession.
I guess that's why its called a "Practice". With the combination of making a profit off of new medicines, it gives you people the right to use some people as guinea pigs.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I agree with your sentiments.........this Neil deGrasse Tyson is a grandstanding loudmouth..........I'm starting to doubt whether his Ph.D. in Astrophysics is even real because he spends all his time giving lectures to lay people and hasn't published any research articles on astronomy.
This moron Tyson has been given a lot of exposure on TV and the internet and people seem to respect his opinion about things he's clueless about.......such is the sad state of modern media & mass communication.
He taught and researched at Princeton, which has the leading astrophysics department in the country if not the world. His Ph.D. (from Columbia with a BA from Harvard) is real Hunkola. Just because he now spends time popularizing science doesn't mean he isn't a scientist. Second, he wasn't insulting the medical profession and should not be held responsible if tlsimpson misconstrues what he was trying to say.
@shoshanq I agree, Dyson used a hypothetical medical case to make the point of a patient who attributes his or her survival to a deity rather than concluding the prognosis of three independant doctors was erroneous.
Dyson also stated that some of his pre-med students in his past physics class were not that smart. Dyson didn't make any statements about the mean intelligence of pre-med students or the physician population. This fool in the video has misinterpreted Dyson's statements.
I made a few typing and sentence errors in my last post.. I meant to say in one sentence that "There should be no intellectual comparison between medical professionals and scientist.
I agree with whatbirthmarkslaya26 said. I think you may have took Dr. Tyson's statement for something it was not, TLSimpson. However, I believe most medical professionals are very smart people, and that there should be no intellectual comparison held between the two! I'm not speaking for you on this because I do not know you, but I think most medical professionals should not throw around "You have x amount of months to live"! Rather the mere possibility should be presented.
he doesn't "condemn the entire profession", he simply makes a point saying that doctors sometimes make mistakes, which is true. you're completely misconstruing the video as some sort of attack on the field of medicine when it merely makes an observation on the minds of theists.
When you consider how frequent medical "mistakes" are, how common misdiagnosis is, it certainly fits with their (MDs) general poor showing in the sciences.
If med schools were more rigorous, we'd all be healthier.
What data are you basing "when you consider how frequent medical 'mistakes' are"? Carl Sagan said that his smart friends went to medical school, and he didn't think he could.
What is your basis that MD's have a poor showing in the sciences? Do you know the minimum GPA for medical school entrance -- and how it is weighted to how they do in the sciences?
Further, what is your data that medical schools are not rigorous?
medicine is one of the most intricate sciences known to mankind. physics deals with very simple laws and principles that can never be violated at certain conditions. it is a science that deals with easily established axioms.
on the other hand, medicine incorporates biology and chemistry. here, general rules are understood and reasons can be attributed. however, the amount of factors that affect the outcome of (for example) a reaction to a prescribed drug is mind-boggling.
@SaganAppreciationSoc The basic sciences medicine relies are rigorous such as Biochemistry, Molecular Biology, and Physics. However, a practicing physician is not doing science. For example, for decades doctors believed stomach ulcers were due to stress and prescribed low stress and dietary regiments.
Basic Microbiology research revealed most stomach ulcers are due to H. pylori infections. Hospital profits and physician greed are perhaps more to blame for medical mistakes.
Doctors make for poor scientists, which is precisely why it took such a ridiculously long amount of time for the H. pylori connection to not only be found, but for it to be accepted by the medical community. Somewhere I have a PDF from the researcher himself explaining the long road to get medicine to accept what was obvious.
@SaganAppreciationSoc The pace of new knowledge ( science ) acquired through Molecular Biology and Bioinformatics over the past decade has been overwhelming. Companies and university researchers are competing to develope ever faster sequencing technologies. ex. Roy Hood. Bio-medical diagnostic software applications for mobile technologies will give the average citizen more control over his or her healthcare in the next five to ten years.
Physicians aren't trained the same way physicists are. One of the core principles of a physics education is the ability to think creatively and independently, problem solve while evaluating all avenues, view everything with skepticism, prove all assumptions and claims by others... Sure, both physicians and physicists undergo training in their respective fields, but that argument is specious. Does med school teach the same intellectual values?
The scientific method is universal, and physicians have to view everything with skepticism. We view patients that way easily. When you ask if physicians teach the same intellectual values - the short answer is yes. They are both rigorous disciplines. My argument was simply that he was using an anecdote, backed by an anecdote, to make a point. That is hardly the way a skeptic should argue.
First let me say I have great respect for you and what you do. I think what chunkymonkey043 - funny name - is trying to say is that medical doctors aren't required to do research, although some do. That is the difference between an M.D. and a Ph.D. Most medical researchers have a Ph.D. to designate them as researchers. Also, skepticism is a small part of the scientific method, which includes syllogism, data taking/analysis, experimentation. Everyone respects doctors, including Tyson. Cheers!
@tlsimpson could u tell me the different between physician and pharmacist? I really want to know. I keep asking people and no seem to give me the right answer.
@tlsimpson Physicians are not trained as physicists. The degree of precision and accuracy is higher in physics than it is in medicine. The practice of medicine is not science. Most physicians don't critically analyze a patient's condition as a basic scientist would repeatedly test a hypothesis. This would be very time consuming an thus impractical for the physician. Therefore, physicians use knowledge, experience, and case statistics to make a prognosis. Dyson's example was hypothetical.
Another possibility is that the patient reported that "the doctor said I was going to die for sure", when the doctors may have in fact said "10% chance of surviving".
Many people just can't handle uncertainty, and everything has to have a solid answer. I would assume that people who are likely to scream MIRACLE!!! are among those. In non-medical situations, believers in religious or psychic superstition often assign undue credit to things which are only "unlikely", but not impossible.
There are those cancers that have spontaneous cures- they are few, but we know them. People with malignant melanoma and renal cell carcinomas are two that have been widely metastatic, then disappear. The chance of that is less than 5%.
But, when the central argument is that the doctor's are idiots because he had some bad students in physics class - well, that is a rather bad place to start. Again, a skeptic shouldn't base a premise on an anecdote.
@tlsimpson The very fact that you took his entire comment out of context and tried (and failed) to turn it into your own personal soapbox proves you are one of the idiots he is referring to.
Tyson was not making an inductive, scientific argument. He was speculating on a school, and the potential for that school to be flawed. Anecdotes are sufficient to set up an argument of this nature, especially if they are obvious. If you go into a lay persons mind with jargon you will be rejected immediately. You should recognise this point. This is why Tyson is so insightful. You talk about renal carcino blah blah blah, he talks about philosposhy. Don't go there, you will lose every time
@tlsimpson Most neoplasms never progress to form detectible tumors due to intrinsic apoptotic mechanisms, excision repair mechanisms, and natural killer T cell surveillance. I will not go into the specifics of Fas or other cellular signaling pathways or specific immunological mechanisms. Physicians only deal with diagnosed cases, assuming there are no false positives. How do you know the probability of spontaneous remission for these cancers is less than .05?
@tlsimpson It kind of depends on the situation. In the situation that Tyson described, the patient was in fact part of that 5%, and yet, he would rather believe that God helped him, than that his doctors had failed.
The point was not to call doctors idiots, or even to insult the medical profession, but to show that doctors, too, are just humans, and that it is silly to think that only God could possibly be the cause of a doctor being wrong.
I agree. I like Tyson, but on that point he went overboard and took the opposing extreme, rather than offering a rational interpretation.
Instead of assuming they were bad doctors, he should have first suggested that the patient was one of the few who recover from that disease. Maybe offer a secondary possibility of them being bad doctors (which is still more likely than the "miracle" theory).
And there are probably plenty of physicists who didn't do well at non-physics subjects.
Of course we see the theme in context - but nothing is out of context. I'm sure Neil is a nice man, who didn't like pre-med students, and made a comment. The comment was out of context from his point, and diminished his point. Wow- a two year old video and still getting comments.
tlsimpson 1 month ago
I'd recommend watching the whole conference, rather than just that segment to understand the theme in context
MrPsychedelic11 1 month ago
The point of Tyson's outlook is that people are so eager to support their divine beliefs by saying "god cured me" than even open their mind to the fact that the science could have been wrong, meaning either the equipment used had slight mechanical errors, leading the doctor to assume cancer when they didnt have it, or the doctor just wasnt trained properly. But the health part isnt the concern Neil deGrasse Tyson was bringing up it was just one of the many examples which could lead someone to a
MrPsychedelic11 1 month ago
I absolutely agree with you. His attack on AMA and "idiot doctors" are entirely uncalled for. A better example would focus on another scientifically plausible explanation which resulted in the statistical outlier, and not God healing the patient. It doesn't matter if he meant to only condemn some idiot physicians. His blatantly negative views on the other academic area is just unprofessional. Also, I think 51 people who downvoted you clearly didn't understand why you were offended. ;)
iamathometoday 1 month ago
You have to pay attention, Doctor. He said "Not all of them are smart". Tyson didn't say they're all dumb, he just said that "not all of them are smart".
He also did not condemn all physicians, he simply said that some are not as great as the others, yet the ones who aren't as great are still accounted with the same respect as the great ones. Essentially, if you compare it with physics, it would be like saying every physicist needs the same respect as Albert Einstein had.
jolohmm 3 months ago
Doctors and physicists are both human. I have witnessed a wide range of doctors across mutliple fields and i can say one thing without doubt- Their are great doctors and their are horrible doctors.
I imagine the same holds true for physicists. Neither is in a postion to comment on the validity of wheather an event constitutes the label miracle.
Both should focus on what counts-doing their job to the best of their ability.
commonsensrules 6 months ago
Over the years I worked in three different hospitals - too many horror stories to recount in such a space.
I have friends who are drs.
I have family who are drs.
lots of drs. make mistakes, lots of mistakes.
lots of drs. driving passions - golf, mercedes benz, spoiled wives and kids.
some drs. think that the md should be replaced by GOD.
To be fair - I do know a few upper case Doctors - a precious and dwindling few.
azcentralsurprise 6 months ago
I think you may have missed what he was getting it. It wasn't about doctors being stupid. It was about people being more willing to believe in something as unlikely as a miracle from God versus human error.
Tyson might have been better off with some facts and figures if he was trying to prove that these events happen. However, I don't really see him trying to convince people that it actually happens, so much as he's trying to get people to think about it. Most people know that this goes on.
TheDoggedWonder 7 months ago 3
Also, not all premedical students become doctors; in fact MOST do not.
pnickel000 7 months ago
Thank you for this.
1) Most professors do not even know what their students' majors are.
2) Medical students are some of the most brilliant, logical students I have ever encountered.
3) Tyson clearly has a grudge with the medical community. Maybe he's just jealous of House.
pnickel000 7 months ago
Yeah so the diagnoses is made partially from statistics, that doesn't detract from Tysons actual point, if anything it supports it. I'm sure Tyson would agree that physics is taught mostly the same way, and understands many of the reasons why cancer goes into remission, and so do most of us. So stop being all offended...
LouisPlume 7 months ago
@hornetpalooza The difference is most scientists make it clear their best models or explanations are based on current evidence with uncertainties rather than making the public believe something will occur within a definite time scale. If you've read any scientific research papers, words often used by researchers are may, suggests, or further research is needed are commonly used.
The theory of evolution has withstood repeated testing for over a century with very few modifications.
chroniclerofthe70s 8 months ago
A far greater problem today is hospital acquired infections known by it's technical name " nosocomial infections. " If any of you have recently been to a hospital, it's very likely neither the hospital staff or treating physician(s) informed you of this risk. Yet, the CDC estimates about 100,000 patients die each year from hospital acquired infections in the U.S.
chroniclerofthe70s 8 months ago
u made Tyson point even more valid now
ehypersonic 8 months ago
clearly one of the three idiot doctors
bozozo197 9 months ago
His hypothetical leadup was more meant to show how people who are pre-disposed to religion are more likely to think God cured them than anything else, like they might have had as he said, 3 bad doctors, 1 really good doctor who provided the right regiment of treatment, or they simply had a different type of body compared to the average as everyone is quite different as much as we're all genetically made from the same baseline.
He may have chosen his antecdote a little poorly, but
Continued>>>
Otakuonfire 11 months ago
@Otakuonfire
Continued>>>
he was mainly trying to point out that people tend to think in black and white, that no one is perfect, and most people, skeptics and otherwise alike, are no exception. He himself made a rather blunt statement without amending that many doctors are very competent and deserve praise, and you are seeing his blunt statement as a mental/perception flaw.
I'm sure if he was able to just dribble for several days and people would listen, that he would amend that point.
Otakuonfire 11 months ago
He was not addressing doctors misdiagnosis, but instead criticizing how dumb is for a physician to guess how much time a patient have to live, since that is pure conjectures, there is no single test that you can perform in any disease that will give you that number.
intestinomedicino 11 months ago
Why does he brake his glasses?
knowthetruth1492 1 year ago
I agree with you. I study biology. I was pretty average at Physiks because it wasn't interesting to me and I just had to pass it.
That hopefully doesn't mean I am stupid.
reafdaw01 1 year ago
@reafdaw01 Don't feel dismayed. Most physicists have trouble with biology as well. I've heard some physicists make generalized statements about biology that were utterly wrong. Remember, no physicist in history has ever figured out how to defeat mortality. There is no single physics equation which describes the total chemical signaling circuitry of a cell. The complexity is overwhelming. I studied physics and excelled in it.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
Tyson is simply pointing out that if a doctor incorrectly estimates the remaining life of a patient, it is an error. There is a very specific reason why the cancer is regressing, and it is most definitely not supernatural. Perhaps we do not know why some cancer will spontaneously cure, as you call it, but the sooner we can stop calling it spontaneous regression, the sooner religious nuts can stop attributing it to magic.
BenJamminH7 1 year ago
@BenJamminH7 The fact is most cancers spontaneously go into remission and never get to the point where an individuals goes to see a physician. Molecular biologists and immunologist discovered some of the cellular mechanisms for cancers going into remission decades ago. Only recently, through genetically profiling cancers with different tissue origins, have biologist been able to distinquish which cancers are likely to become malignant and which are likely to remain benign.
chroniclerofthe70s 8 months ago
He didn't say all doctors, he said some, and while anecdotal evidences is generally weak, its sufficient and appropriate to falsify the claim that ALL doctors are perfect, which surely all would agree isn't the case. Anyone can make mistakes, though I don't think "idiot doctor" was a fair phrase. The point he made was that people rarely consider the possibility that a specific medical opinion is in error, which is sadly not true, at all as evidenced by the dangerous prevalence of bogus alt-med.
SarafanUnin 1 year ago
1) An entire career of teaching physics is more than just a single anecdote. Regardless, anecdotes are facts, albeit weakly conclusive and easily cherry picked.
2) NDT focused on the "stupidity" of doctors (probably for the laughs), but he did mention other reasons for mistakes, like the current limits of our knowledge and educational system.
3) The point was that patients are the really stupid ones for completely accepting the ~6 month diagnosis without caveat or any hint of uncertainty.
darkmiles22 1 year ago
It seems like i have to agree with most people here... You took Neil out of context, (for your own personal vendetta I should add) but you are right. Not all people in your profession are dumb. And not all "regressive cancers" were misdiagnosed by doctors. But in the end i say you and Neil are both right! Neils point was that a cancer that remisses isnt a miracle. Your point is the same.
SnibesB 1 year ago
Even though your glasses was the most interesting thing in the video (Sorry). I understand your point.
AfroEliteXL 1 year ago
Tyson's video is not about doctors making mistakes, is about religious people irrational way of thinking ("god cures me" makes more sense to them that a doctor making a mistake)
if you get offended by that video is because you didn't undestand it at all
patataton 1 year ago
@patataton This is exactly the point. To the video author: rather than being offended by it, perhaps hear it.
marauderfh 1 year ago
I really like Neil Tyson. I've briefly met him in Utah when he came to lecture here at BYU and I agree with most of his views about the Cosmos and religion. However, I am disheartened by his comment on medicine here. I will give it the benefit of the doubt that this short clip may have been taken out of context, but I do realize medicine is a complicated scientific body, specially dealing with such illnesses such as cancer, etc. I think your response was relevant and fair.
tuuky 1 year ago
Others here have already stated that you took his comments out of context I will ask a different question. Where in his video did he "condemn the entire profession?"
thegdin 1 year ago
Somebody took Neil's speech personally, good lord!
montae7 1 year ago
Neil DeGrasse Tyson wasn't shooting down all doctors; he was saying it's crazy that people jump to a conclusion of "god did it" rather than the conclusion that how much time you have to live is not always exact.
BornOfRoyalBlood 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Mimimi detected. "mimimimimi, anectodes, mimimimi, anecdotes...." "Mimimi, I'm so pissed that you said something negative 'bout my so-beloved profession, doctors, are gods, mimimimi, science, mimimi...."
Your glasses suck
m2alvaro 1 year ago
Mimimi detected. "mimimimimi, anectodes, mimimimi, anecdotes...." "Mimimi, I'm so pissed that you said something negative 'bout my so-beloved profession, doctors, are gods, mimimimi, science, mimimi...."
Your glasses suck
m2alvaro 1 year ago
You missed the point of Neil deGrasse Tyson's statement and your desire to seek to take personal offense hindered your ability to notice that you did.
His statement was regarding the predictable irrationality of the religious that allows them to attribute a misdiagnosis as a miracle rather than human error.
You chose to view it as a condemnation of medicine.
This is where you tripped up.
kbernstar 1 year ago
Mr. Simpson, I think you posted this video because you just feel personally offended. Tyson may have overdone it, but you summarized his point perfectly between 0:39 and 0:46: it's the religious conclusion of the _patient_, who observed that all the doctors were wrong (and even if they just gave an estimate, out of a range of possibilities in the bell curve, at least the estimate was wrong), that there MUST be a god.
If you think the patient's reasoning is correct, humor me, and explain.
KryzMasta 1 year ago
Out of context =/
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
No, he did not even seem to condemn the entire profession. Wow, he must have really struck a chord.
EnemyofCredulity 2 years ago
Tyson did a great job with what he said. I think you took his words out of context. He was talking about confirmation bias.
EnemyofCredulity 2 years ago
I think the Professor Tyson
understands that and did not go outta his way is was more of an point against crazy Christians who are invading school with their bible thumping and chest beating and dogma harrassment! I am sorry U felt like your were being attacked and your whole profession! I sir, if you took his point the wrong way I think you are wholly proving his point ! just saying :-)
NEXUS1A 2 years ago
Haha, i do not think that he is trying to offend the doctors but his focus was more on those people who believe that god cured them.
But of course, he did offend you doctors in some ways but dont take it to heart :)
javisj2000 2 years ago
I love Neil Tyson, but I can see your point. Neil's point, however, was that it wasn't a miracle and since he's not a medical doctor, he just through a random alternative explanation, which is obviously more likely. In fact, the only one that is possible out of those two. What you did here, is offer a better alternative explanation.
Either way his point would not be lost. After all, he wasn't trying to show doctors are stupid. But I can see how you could've been offended.
covega79 2 years ago
You took Tyson completely out of context.
JasonKeis 2 years ago 8
I agree that in giving a simplistic anecdote, he painted a broad negative swath across the medical profession. while I have my own beefs with the medical profession I wouldn't be prepared to say they're all idiots.. in fact, I'd be willing to wager that if Neil broke his arm or contracted some disease he'd go see one of these so-called doctors himself. Smart guy, just some over bearing arrogant tendancies about him.
gee100 2 years ago
You don't understand what he was getting at. Sorry your ego was hurt doctor but he was making the point that people are more willing to attribute something improbably to divine intervention than the more realistic concept that the doctors were just wrong. This was not a condemnation of the entire medical profession.
robisan 2 years ago
I guess that's why its called a "Practice". With the combination of making a profit off of new medicines, it gives you people the right to use some people as guinea pigs.
ZirePhotography 2 years ago
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I agree with your sentiments.........this Neil deGrasse Tyson is a grandstanding loudmouth..........I'm starting to doubt whether his Ph.D. in Astrophysics is even real because he spends all his time giving lectures to lay people and hasn't published any research articles on astronomy.
This moron Tyson has been given a lot of exposure on TV and the internet and people seem to respect his opinion about things he's clueless about.......such is the sad state of modern media & mass communication.
Hunkola 2 years ago
He taught and researched at Princeton, which has the leading astrophysics department in the country if not the world. His Ph.D. (from Columbia with a BA from Harvard) is real Hunkola. Just because he now spends time popularizing science doesn't mean he isn't a scientist. Second, he wasn't insulting the medical profession and should not be held responsible if tlsimpson misconstrues what he was trying to say.
shoshanq 2 years ago 14
@shoshanq oh i know this is a year overdue.. but you just Pwnd a Dr. on YOUTUBE. congrats!
mmmodafoca 11 months ago
@shoshanq I agree, Dyson used a hypothetical medical case to make the point of a patient who attributes his or her survival to a deity rather than concluding the prognosis of three independant doctors was erroneous.
Dyson also stated that some of his pre-med students in his past physics class were not that smart. Dyson didn't make any statements about the mean intelligence of pre-med students or the physician population. This fool in the video has misinterpreted Dyson's statements.
chroniclerofthe70s 10 months ago
I think Tyson was more referencing Hachem's Razor than condemning the medical profession, and also that you're being a little bit touchy.
HarryMonday 2 years ago
I made a few typing and sentence errors in my last post.. I meant to say in one sentence that "There should be no intellectual comparison between medical professionals and scientist.
moneyjarrod 2 years ago
I agree with whatbirthmarkslaya26 said. I think you may have took Dr. Tyson's statement for something it was not, TLSimpson. However, I believe most medical professionals are very smart people, and that there should be no intellectual comparison held between the two! I'm not speaking for you on this because I do not know you, but I think most medical professionals should not throw around "You have x amount of months to live"! Rather the mere possibility should be presented.
moneyjarrod 2 years ago
he doesn't "condemn the entire profession", he simply makes a point saying that doctors sometimes make mistakes, which is true. you're completely misconstruing the video as some sort of attack on the field of medicine when it merely makes an observation on the minds of theists.
birthmarkslaya26 2 years ago
When you consider how frequent medical "mistakes" are, how common misdiagnosis is, it certainly fits with their (MDs) general poor showing in the sciences.
If med schools were more rigorous, we'd all be healthier.
SaganAppreciationSoc 3 years ago
What data are you basing "when you consider how frequent medical 'mistakes' are"? Carl Sagan said that his smart friends went to medical school, and he didn't think he could.
What is your basis that MD's have a poor showing in the sciences? Do you know the minimum GPA for medical school entrance -- and how it is weighted to how they do in the sciences?
Further, what is your data that medical schools are not rigorous?
tlsimpson 3 years ago
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@tlsimpson THE FACT YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF HIS COMMENT SHOWS YOU ARE CLEARLY ONE OF THE IDIOTS HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.
greywolf424 1 year ago
how ignorant.
medicine is one of the most intricate sciences known to mankind. physics deals with very simple laws and principles that can never be violated at certain conditions. it is a science that deals with easily established axioms.
on the other hand, medicine incorporates biology and chemistry. here, general rules are understood and reasons can be attributed. however, the amount of factors that affect the outcome of (for example) a reaction to a prescribed drug is mind-boggling.
sinprelic 2 years ago
@SaganAppreciationSoc The basic sciences medicine relies are rigorous such as Biochemistry, Molecular Biology, and Physics. However, a practicing physician is not doing science. For example, for decades doctors believed stomach ulcers were due to stress and prescribed low stress and dietary regiments.
Basic Microbiology research revealed most stomach ulcers are due to H. pylori infections. Hospital profits and physician greed are perhaps more to blame for medical mistakes.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
@chroniclerofthe70s
Doctors make for poor scientists, which is precisely why it took such a ridiculously long amount of time for the H. pylori connection to not only be found, but for it to be accepted by the medical community. Somewhere I have a PDF from the researcher himself explaining the long road to get medicine to accept what was obvious.
SaganAppreciationSoc 9 months ago
@SaganAppreciationSoc The pace of new knowledge ( science ) acquired through Molecular Biology and Bioinformatics over the past decade has been overwhelming. Companies and university researchers are competing to develope ever faster sequencing technologies. ex. Roy Hood. Bio-medical diagnostic software applications for mobile technologies will give the average citizen more control over his or her healthcare in the next five to ten years.
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
Physicians aren't trained the same way physicists are. One of the core principles of a physics education is the ability to think creatively and independently, problem solve while evaluating all avenues, view everything with skepticism, prove all assumptions and claims by others... Sure, both physicians and physicists undergo training in their respective fields, but that argument is specious. Does med school teach the same intellectual values?
chunkymonkey043 3 years ago
The scientific method is universal, and physicians have to view everything with skepticism. We view patients that way easily. When you ask if physicians teach the same intellectual values - the short answer is yes. They are both rigorous disciplines. My argument was simply that he was using an anecdote, backed by an anecdote, to make a point. That is hardly the way a skeptic should argue.
tlsimpson 3 years ago
First let me say I have great respect for you and what you do. I think what chunkymonkey043 - funny name - is trying to say is that medical doctors aren't required to do research, although some do. That is the difference between an M.D. and a Ph.D. Most medical researchers have a Ph.D. to designate them as researchers. Also, skepticism is a small part of the scientific method, which includes syllogism, data taking/analysis, experimentation. Everyone respects doctors, including Tyson. Cheers!
shoshanq 2 years ago
@tlsimpson could u tell me the different between physician and pharmacist? I really want to know. I keep asking people and no seem to give me the right answer.
aznpride0 1 year ago
@tlsimpson Physicians are not trained as physicists. The degree of precision and accuracy is higher in physics than it is in medicine. The practice of medicine is not science. Most physicians don't critically analyze a patient's condition as a basic scientist would repeatedly test a hypothesis. This would be very time consuming an thus impractical for the physician. Therefore, physicians use knowledge, experience, and case statistics to make a prognosis. Dyson's example was hypothetical.
chroniclerofthe70s 10 months ago
Another possibility is that the patient reported that "the doctor said I was going to die for sure", when the doctors may have in fact said "10% chance of surviving".
Many people just can't handle uncertainty, and everything has to have a solid answer. I would assume that people who are likely to scream MIRACLE!!! are among those. In non-medical situations, believers in religious or psychic superstition often assign undue credit to things which are only "unlikely", but not impossible.
dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj 3 years ago
There are those cancers that have spontaneous cures- they are few, but we know them. People with malignant melanoma and renal cell carcinomas are two that have been widely metastatic, then disappear. The chance of that is less than 5%.
But, when the central argument is that the doctor's are idiots because he had some bad students in physics class - well, that is a rather bad place to start. Again, a skeptic shouldn't base a premise on an anecdote.
tlsimpson 3 years ago 2
@tlsimpson The very fact that you took his entire comment out of context and tried (and failed) to turn it into your own personal soapbox proves you are one of the idiots he is referring to.
greywolf424 1 year ago
Tyson was not making an inductive, scientific argument. He was speculating on a school, and the potential for that school to be flawed. Anecdotes are sufficient to set up an argument of this nature, especially if they are obvious. If you go into a lay persons mind with jargon you will be rejected immediately. You should recognise this point. This is why Tyson is so insightful. You talk about renal carcino blah blah blah, he talks about philosposhy. Don't go there, you will lose every time
Pigroota 9 months ago
@tlsimpson Most neoplasms never progress to form detectible tumors due to intrinsic apoptotic mechanisms, excision repair mechanisms, and natural killer T cell surveillance. I will not go into the specifics of Fas or other cellular signaling pathways or specific immunological mechanisms. Physicians only deal with diagnosed cases, assuming there are no false positives. How do you know the probability of spontaneous remission for these cancers is less than .05?
chroniclerofthe70s 9 months ago
@tlsimpson It kind of depends on the situation. In the situation that Tyson described, the patient was in fact part of that 5%, and yet, he would rather believe that God helped him, than that his doctors had failed.
The point was not to call doctors idiots, or even to insult the medical profession, but to show that doctors, too, are just humans, and that it is silly to think that only God could possibly be the cause of a doctor being wrong.
jursle 7 months ago
I agree. I like Tyson, but on that point he went overboard and took the opposing extreme, rather than offering a rational interpretation.
Instead of assuming they were bad doctors, he should have first suggested that the patient was one of the few who recover from that disease. Maybe offer a secondary possibility of them being bad doctors (which is still more likely than the "miracle" theory).
And there are probably plenty of physicists who didn't do well at non-physics subjects.
dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj 3 years ago