Starting a 100 year old rotory airplane engine

[RocKiteman]

How is this engine "throttled"? My understanding is that the only throttle control is to turn the fuel "ON" or "OFF", which accounts for the "blip" when the engine runs.

{Also FWIW, I have always called these things "rotary radial engines", because the WHOLE ENGINE rotates, and the cylinders are mounted radially around the crankshaft.}

[loatherd]

At the time they were called ROTATIVE engines as opposed to static radials.

[Hamradioismyhobby]

I Used to fly a rotary engine aircraft, but i took an bullet to my prop

[Smile4killcam]

It is a "gnome rotary engine." Everyone stop fighting...

[spentacle]

Why do we have to have this every time a WW1 rotary is shown? It is RADIAL because of the cylinder arrangement. It is a ROTARY because the cylinders rotate about the crankshaft, and that's what it was called in the day. IT CAN BE BOTH. Go to Wikipedia and type in "Rotary Engine". This is the type you will see. Felix Wankel gets 3 lines at the bottom of the page and a separate article

[MrGotsquashed]

Took me a while to comprehend the engine block, heads and all spinning at such high speed- it seems to me the spinning would hinder the fuel mixture and mechanical operation.

[sportscarfan1989]

its a rotating radial engine k end of conversation

[chucklingchicken]

@sportscarfan1989 nope its a rotary, radial engines were invented after the rotary

[McLarenMercedes]

@sportscarfan1989

Nobody ever refered to them as "rotating radials" EVER in history.

People don't call Diesels "self igniting 4 stroke engines".

Likewise the Wankel engine was marketed and called that by the few manafacturers NSU (German) who made them. During one point when Mazda RX7's become popular cars kids started to call them "rotary engined" and that's how it stuck.

The Sopwith Camel of WW1 used a Bentley designed rotary engine. Not a radial.

[alessandrorobert]

a really good ventilator for the summer *****

[BluesMcGoo]

And as for a rotary engine not having pistons, what do you think is in the cylinders? Fluffy clouds and puppies? Were not talking about the rotary WANKEL engine. Were talking about an aircraft rotary engine. Study up on your facts.

[BluesMcGoo]

rbuss1956 and bowtie4ever96 If the engine rotates WITH the propeller, it

's a ROTARY engine. If the engine is stationary and the propeller turns, it's a RADIAL engine. (I'm typing slow here so you two can understand.) If you search for the following: "gnome rotary engines""a brief history", it will explain everything.

[applesweeter]

why do thge pistons rotate with the propellor?

[Landotter1]

@applesweeter Because the cylinders rotated. Cooling was the problem so they designed a rotary radial engine to cool off the cylinders. The cylinders were precision balanced cast iron or steel, not aluminum alloy, like modern engines. Spinning the engine cilinders, greatly helped in cooling. These were 2 stroke engines, burning gasoline and castor oil and having only one valve. Called momosoupe by the French. (one/single valve). one reason for scarves. to wipe away oil from goggles

[xXxgriefelementxXx]

Youre gonna need some wings on that to beat Grunty...

[barryb83110]

What an interesting sound. Switching on and off while landing in gusty weather must have made for some fascinating approaches.

[faffaflunkie]

Reminds me of the time I flew Southwest.

[MSJDesign]

@faffaflunkie lol



[ki4hou]

im willing to bet that that style of engine had massive lubrication issues. very interesting design none the less

[bonecrime]

@ki4hou I do believe they had total loss lubrication, the pilot got most of the used oil in his face. ;)

[oiseautempete]

@bonecrime

the airplanes with rotaries are all with top engine fairing to avoid the most of the castor oil projections...

[Makhpiyaluta2]

For all of you wondering what it's called. It's a 1909 50hp Gnome Omega rotarie engine. It runs on normal 95 or 98 octane gasoline and castor oil. On this engine you can controle the air, fuel and mixture amount getting in the cranckcase. That means three levers. There is no ignition selector as on later types it's just on or off.The Gnome Omega was found on many of the pioneer planes as the Bleriot XI.

How do I know all of this? I'm the guy demonstrating it in the video.

[BertAtHome]

@GayBoyRunning @GayBoyRunning

I believe there are some different naming for the engine principle. According to wike 'Rotory' engine is correct. How ever the so called 'Wankel' engine uses also somekind of rotor system

[GayBoyRunning]

@BertAtHome Thanks, well its good to know the right thing even if you get corrected by them.

[BertAtHome]

@GayBoyRunning @GayBoyRunning

I believe there are some different naming for the engines principle. According to wike 'Rotory' engine is correct. How ever the so called 'Wankel' engine uses also somekind of rotor system

[BertAtHome]

@GayBoyRunning @GayBoyRunning

I believe there are some different naming for the engines principle. According to Wiki 'Rotory' engine is correct. How ever the so called 'Wankel' engine uses also somekind of rotor system

[GayBoyRunning]

@BertAtHome Tho google: mazda rotary engine.

The function of the mazda rotary is nothing like a Radial engine.

[bicyclemonkey]

@GayBoyRunning

No, this is a ROTARY engine, notice how the entire engine spins with the prop. On a radial, the engine is stationary and only the prop spins.

[GayBoyRunning]

@bicyclemonkey ok ok sorry if i got it wrong. Geez dont get ur in a knickers in a twist. lolz xD

[callmeshane303]

@bicyclemonkey

It's not a rotary engine it's a spinner engine, made by Cosworth and Spinner 1911 - 1919 of South Hampton Aeronaut Works Bavaria.

[oiseautempete]

@callmeshane303

You are fasle: this is typicaly a rotary, looks like a Le Rhone monosoupape...

And the only British rotaries are made by Bentley

[callmeshane303]

@oiseautempete

Oh no no no...

My great grandfather was the designer of them and I have a photo of him standing beside one in the machine shop.

The factory sign is in the back ground, and it's dated by the photographer.

[oiseautempete]

@callmeshane303

OK, a artisanal engine, possible, but some French engines was built in GB at this times, up to end of the 30' (Salmson small radials)...

I found a photo from a Gnome engine and it look exactly same as the engine on the video (Gnome 9B-2 100hp and other French engines use by the Sopwith Camel, and the Bentley BR1 150hp )

But later, France built (by SNECMA) under license British Bristol Hercules up to 1962 for the Noratlas :-)

But what is a "spinner engine"?

[callmeshane303]

@oiseautempete

You mean you don't know that?

Goodness me!

[GGigabiteM]

@oiseautempete LeRhone and Gnome were two different engine manufacturers. This engine is an early Gnome Monosoupape (single valve, see it only has one push/pull rod.) The Monosoupape series of engines didn't have throttles due to the air intake coming from the dual purpose valve at the top of the cylinder (exhaust and air intake) with fuel and caster oil entering the cylinder through ports. LeRhone engines used the more common two valves for intake and exhaust.

[callmeshane303]

@bicyclemonkey

No the engine is stationary, it's the frame rate of the camera - that synchronises with the propeller, that makes it appear if the engine is running.

[BluesMcGoo]

@callmeshane303

No, bicyclemonkey is correct. This is a ROTARY engine not a RADIAL engine. A rotary engine spins with the prop. A radial engine, on the other hand, remains stationary and only the prop spins.

[callmeshane303]

@BluesMcGoo

No he is not.

And neither are you.

Garlic munching frog.

[BluesMcGoo]

@callmeshane303

Yeah...why let facts spoil a perfectly good argument.

ribbit

[callmeshane303]

@BluesMcGoo

It wasn't an argument.

You were the one who started it. You were the one who contradicted yourself. You were the one who raised all the unprovable assertions, and you were the one who lost to yourself.

While I lay in bed typing with one hand.

[rbuss1956]

@BluesMcGoo Wrong and wrong. A rotary engine has a triangular "piston" that rotates inside an epitrochoid chamber. This on the other hand, is a rotating radial engine wich was not uncommon in first world war fighter-airplanes.

[Landotter1]

@rbuss1956 No triangular piston bro. They are all round.

[bowtie4ever96]

@BluesMcGoo its a rotary radial engine rotary engines dont have pistons

[spaatzbound]

@BluesMcGoo that is somewhat correct and somewhat incorrect. A rotary engine has a combustion chamber with one central rotating "piston", if you will, that spins in a way that it compresses, and ignites 3 times within one revolution. To me, this seems like a radial engine, just with a different fixed part. as opposed to a fixed block, it has a fixed crankshaft. this is all in my opinion, using no hard facts...only experience.

[Notification93]

@BluesMcGoo

Radial engines divides into two types which are Rotary and Stationary types.

[thra5herxb12s]

@callmeshane303 This is definately a rotary engine and not stationary. You can clearly see the engine turning.

[callmeshane303]

@thra5herxb12s

You could be right - but what if your not?

What are you going to do then?

[thra5herxb12s]

@callmeshane303 Fall from the sky in utter bewilderment.

[callmeshane303]

@thra5herxb12s

LOL.....



[thra5herxb12s]

@callmeshane303 I tried to send you a pm and vid but you are blocked to me. It must be like 3am where you are.

[callmeshane303]

@thra5herxb12s

Why would you want to send me a video?

Unless your black and have a HUGE cock - I probably would not be interested in watching it.

[tarapita]

effin awesome!!!

[BlackWiiOwner2010]

Incredible, yet interesting engine

[PepeK62]

Only the LeRhone 100 hp engine had no throttle. Most other rotary engines could be throttled up or down by the use of the fuel & air mixture levers or by the use of electrical ignition selector switches that could select to run on 1,3,5 or on all cylinders. You can see this in use on the video of the Fokker DVIII.

[scott93257]

So correct me if I am wrong...the cylinders actually rotate around the crankshaft? I've never seen one of those...That is amazing... I know that the Wankel Rotary engine is a design its own and is in no way similar to this...

This is an amazing engine though... the technology back in those days was really incredible.. Thanks for posting

[kirkconway]

very crude running engine.

no throttle, only crude hit and miss ignition,

simple as possible design, and oil added to gas to burn in the combustion cycle.

blipping the throttle was the only way to control engine speed. running it open then letting it cool a bit , then running it open again

I dont think rotary's lasted that long getting hot and then wearing part's cause of heat buildup.

[gdelsavio1]

rotary engines do not have any oil sump, wet or dry. Fuel was pulled into the crankcase then into the cylinders to burn. An oil pump added oil to the crankcase to mix with the gasoline and burned. Radial engines had a dry sump system, not rotary engines

[isaacpa170]

impresive

[Poopingbotham]

Here we have a better illusion than David Blane could come up with. The engine appears to be turning one way, then the other. The prop & engine even seem to be going in opposite directions, even though they're bolted together!

This engine should be stripped down into separate parts and a pattern made for each component. Lots of WW1 replica aircraft are being built & they need authentic replica engines.

Then - of course - the original engine would need to be re assembled & made airworthy!

[R5H4D0W]

Total aircraft engine n00b here, does this rotary engine operate on two different types of fuel or is one purely a feed reservoir to engine oil? I see two containers on top

[jackpontiac52]

@R5H4D0W These engines had a 'dry sump' The pump is actually 2 pumps. A scavenge pump to suck out the sump and return oil to the tank. A supply pump to send oil from the tank to the 'dry sump'. I also think that the scavenge pump is slightly higher capacity. A lot of aircraft engines were 'dry sump'. Motorcycles to. eg Norton, Royal Enfield.

[boo66]

@jackpontiac52  Some road cars are dry sump too. Porsche 911 is one!

[Bamchucknorris]

Speed was controlled by left mag, which lengthened out the firing order. Engine did not have a carb, only a needle valve which was wide open. Right mag was only for full throttle.

[chh5555]

I didn't know that the prop and the engine rotated at different rpms.... digital filming makes lots of thing obvious

[ant1slam]

dude you're the old base player from nnb, n'est pas?

what happened to Mark and that guy with the best name in P*nk R*ck? whatever never thought you were punk just the embodiment of the DIY ethic? were you in Red House?  lost track of you guise from then omg omg LOVED LOVED LOVED nnb and I knew my shit yo wasnt just a hey ho lets go ramones fan but was into Pere Ubu and television and now? well i like a lucinda Williams record a while back and I like Boss Hog but today music is 2ez2 get?

[chh5555]

@ant1slam NNB yes, Red House no.... Dick Champ went to The Scene Is Now....rotary engines and other mechanicl stuff... perhaps not the best place to converse on rock

[boo66]

@chh5555

They don't move at different speeds.. That's a stoboscopic illusion caused by  the even number of prop blades and odd number of cylinders, and the camera's constant frames-per-second rate.

[DoomsDaySlip]

@boo66

you learn something new everyday :)

[carlosmurphy4u]

Shutter speed is much too fast...

[3kToT]

I wonder how may revolutions does it make per second

[wi11y1960]

I remember reading they used to lube these engines with castor oil. The problem for the pilots ofthese old warbirds was that they would inhale the exhaust and thus after normal flight it was guessed they had consumed as much as a gallon of castor oil.

[Camerameister]

Many WWI aircraft were powered by rotary engines, though I doubt the Sopwith Camel used this one because it looks too small. Yes, they ran on castor oil and unburnt fuel spewed out of the cowlling. Most engines whether German Oberursels, French Le Rhones or British Bentleys produced between 90 and 150hp. Rotary engined aircraft were difficult to fly because of the torque forces.

[decoysk]

DIDN`T THE SOPWITH CAMEL HAVE THIS ENGINE? AND DIDN`T IT RUN ON CASTOR OIL ?

[DeLorean4]

Now that's the sound of progress!

[minorot]

What's the country of origin? What model plane was it used in?

[Lehmann108]

Go baby go!!!

[LordReaper117]

what was the hp? rating on this engine..just curious if anyone knows

[asheck1]

is it true this engines only ran at full throttle

[BertAtHome]

@asheck1 I think so. The engine was controlled bij switching off and on the magneto's

[oiseautempete]

@BertAtHome

and with switching part of the cylinders on the powerfullest rotaries:

-iddle= 3 cylinder on

-take of or low speed: 6 cylinders on

-full power 9 cyl only alowed over a minimum defined speed (to avoid loss of control)

A prototype Nieuport 17 with a 150hp Gnome Rhone was near uncontrolable at full power/low speed but was able to climb with 45° angle!

[DL3CE]

@oiseautempete

Not the cylinders were switched, but the frequency of ignition .. there were settings 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1/1:

1/1: 1-3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8-1-3-5-7-9-2-­4-6-8-1-3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8-1-3-5-­7-9-2-4-6-8

1/2: 1-x-5-x-9-x-4-x-8-x-3-x-7-x-2-­x-6-x-1-x-5-x-9-x-4-x-8-x-3-x-­7-x-2-x-6

1/4: 1-x-x-x-9-x-x-x-8-x-x-x-7-x-x-­x-6-x-x-x-5-x-x-x-4-x-x-x-3-x-­x-x-2-x-x-x

1/8: 1-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-8 .... That means the the ignition was reduced to every second, fourth, eigth revolution, but still all cylinders were in use.

[oiseautempete]

@DL3CE

tanks for this interresting precisions: this is logic

[darkhound891]

@BertAtHome using the mags they could be run at full speed, half speed, quarter speed, and eighth speed. an with the blip mad it could be ran at full or off, half or off, quarter or off, or 8th or off.

[xXxgriefelementxXx]

@BertAtHome Well- he lost his powers in X-men 3.

Get the Juggernaut instead

[smeghead666]

@asheck1 some, like the Gnome and I think the Oberursel had a throttle which would ignite certain combinations of sparkplugs, instead of all 9, in a dogfight they were usually left on full throttle and controlled with a blip switch which momentarily stops everything from firing

[Landotter1]

@asheck1 No carburetor control. Just on or off. It would idle but nothing in between idle and "balls-to-the-wall" The airmen controled their speed by opening and closing the "contact" switch. Pulsed power, if you will...

[EnterpriseXI]

what plane was powered be this engine

[ijerry1]

That would be a radial engine, not a rotary  - but thanks for the vid :-)

[robicool]

@ijerry1 i think with radial engines the engine didn't spin, unlike this

[cklskypilot]

@ijerry1 jerry it is a rotary engine

[hawker445]

Nd how could it be 100 years old when we didnt have the Rotory untill the 1920's?

[jakazza]

No Takeoff ? Oh the wings fell off

[XELA2T]

Very very nice work you guys did.

Also very well to hear the original all or nothing "Throttle" switch.

Thanks a lot

[waterloofreak]

very cool how come the engine turns

[McLarenMercedes]

@waterloofreak

That's how the old rotary aircraft engines solved the early cooling issues. Sure there were watercooled engines back then but they were heavier and more complex to maintain.

The crankshaft is still, whereas the cylinders actually rotate in a circle, thus cooling them. Now, the trouble is this creates a gyroscoping effect which pulls the aircraft to roll slightly so the pilot constantly needed to correct that. However in a dogfight this was actually a benefit.

[McLarenMercedes]

@waterloofreak

And don't confuse old aircraft rotary engines with the Wankel rotary piston engine of cars like the NSU and Mazda RX7.

[crisp2882]

vey nice indeed.

[tyke58]

Nice!