satu gabungan terbaik....harmoni....cuma beza key saja...kira ok jugalah...bukan mudah mahu bawa original key....sebab suara manusia berbeza beza...sekurang kurangnya berilah pujian jangan dikutuk...sebab kita pun hanya tahu cari benda salah dan kelemahan orang lain dan bukan kelemahan kita sendiri....aku beri 3 bintang untuk datuk siti nurhaliza....syabas.
OMG i love Celine Dion.. i also love Siti Nurhaliza.. i love both of them but.......what happened with this video..its good if u can separate the voice so then we can hear the differences and we can hear that both of them got their own advantages ..
oh gosh! what kind of recording is this????? either u ask siti or celine to sing .... but dont put them together in arecording like this., super amateur .....
The ability and the way of people are different. Is it fair if we say it's not the same, not good? Meanwhile, we may not be able to do what they do. Do not see what they have to contribute but ask yourself what we can do things that they did.
aq tk leh terima,,mmg kedua2nya best,cuma tk sesuai disatukan tnpa rela..berkecamuk..siapa yang buat ni..buat aq marah la.. by the way,both of them have their own style as a singer... muahh for siti & celine..
oh! )PLEASE!!!!! what is going on??? why this Bloody old fashion singer Siti was paired to the superstar legend ? what a prat! Siti pls duest with your malaysian counterparts not this one....your aiming to far that you can reach kampong girl!!!
SITI have a good voice, soft and pleasant to be heard, also has a high voice. Charice only have a high voice BUT NOT sweet to be heard, SITI has everything people want to hear. FOR CHARICE ALSO HAVE TALENT IS NOT DISCLAIMED..
SITI have a good voice, soft and pleasant to be heard, also has a high voice. Charice only have a high voice BUT NOT sweet to be heard, SITI has everything people want to hear. FOR CHARICE ALSO HAVE TALENT IS NOT DISCLAIMED..
@starg20 :-) yes Charice's voice is powerful and strong and high. But Siti's voice is very sweet, and pleasant to the ear. Like a fleeting symphony, don;t you think? Don't be too quick to judge my friend. Give her a chance.
@starg20 yes her voice is powerful but siti knows how to sing beautifully and with feelings. charice is like showing off but among teen singers she is the best
Sitti nurhaliza is a great and talented singer i really like her but Charice is a gifted singer plus her voice is fuller and denser than Sitti ..just saying..
TO ALL FILIPINOS....WHY ARE YOU SO JEALOUS ABOUT OUR LOVING SINGER? ARE WE CARE ABOUT YOUR SINGER????DONT TALK BAD ABOUT OUR GIRL COZ WE DONT CARE YOURS!!! AND ONE MORE THING,DONT BE THAT PROUD THAT UR ARTIST HAD MAKE IT TO THE HOLLYWOOD,COZ UR ARTIST IS A BEGGAR!!!FILIPPINE IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THEM TO FIND MONEY. PLUS,UR UGLY GURL CANT BE COMPARE WITH OUR ANGEL.DO I CARE ABOUT UR FAT CHARICE?LOL...MY GRANNY IS MUCH BEAUTIFUL THAN HER...
@zuaikha No need to be hyper and racist. We're talking of talent here. Ur comment shows Ur poor character in insulting others and not staying on topic. I admit Siti is more beautiful than Charice. But they are singers. And U are too narrow-minded for all these negative comments. I love Siti's sweet voice. Though, I prefer Charice's voice when it comes to big, powerful songs. Peace.
PS. Turn off comments if U do not want negative comments.
@naufalANTZ italy..korea..japan..america..oprah show..or another else..she was perform there..she's so talented..just google charice pempego "listen"..its amazing..she also had a duet with celline dion of bcuz u love me..
@MegaArgena Charice, is currently has the best female voice in history rightnow. Please watch her videos like Am I'm Telling You I'm Nothing on StarKing by Jenniffer Holliday, I Have Nothing by Whitney on Oprah, My Heart Will Go On on Oprah by Celine,Note To God on Opah, One Moment In Time live @ Asap by Whitney,Earth Song by MJ live @ Las Vegas, My Grown Up Christmas list and Jingle. Siti duet with Celine was horrible.
@MegaArgena You may not care and your stands, for you that is. But to say say Charice voice is "familiar" or what U may mean as normal-sounding goes against popular opinion. Charice voice is powerful and has a wide range, yet it can also sound sweet. Can U provide a vid of Siti singing as powerful as Charice. And don't go ranting racist slur.
hadoiii... dah sah2 la yg CD pnyer studio version, meanwhile CT plak live version, of course la the quality will be far different. That was not a fair mash-up.
sitis voice is too low to sing this song. it sounds karaokiesh.. especially when celine sang... heyyyyyy yaaahhhhh... Siti's voice was drowned and gone.. like "poof"..
eh korang ni bengap pe. da tentu2 smer org ada masing2 punye key notes tersendiri masa bernyanyi. cd ada sndri. ct pun ada sndri. pe yg salah note la pe mepek korg bual nie. haizzzz.
I noticed that Siti's voice will rival Celine's but only if there are consistencies in high and low notes. She definitely has the voice but she has yet to learn to blend in and be consistent. She just killed the song...Sorry
@ailafahde97 siti can never make it in the us market as well in europe and asia like japan or china,she does not have the big voice,she does not have wide range enough to sing low notes and powerfull voice-vibratto,she sings good,but not that good..just watch her carreer..she made her carreer in her home land..nothing more,and dont say that singers dont like to be recognized global,cos thats a lie !! any singer want to be recognized global. where is she now? : (
@steroidsR4loserswife: If you read my comment once more, you'll notice that I did not mention anything about singers not wanting to be recognize globally. But you were right about her singing style. Perhaps she can learn a great deal from the likes of Charice or Lea Salonga. Sorry but not impressed at her singing abilities.
Siti nyanyi note bawah dari celine, arrangement len2, so bila campur, no komen. Tapi kalau asing2 sedap, cuma bila campur, bunyinya....... Btw, hati2, video ni boleh jadi target "negara" jiran negeri di bawah bayu. Anyway, good attempt!! XD
satu gabungan terbaik....harmoni....cuma beza key saja...kira ok jugalah...bukan mudah mahu bawa original key....sebab suara manusia berbeza beza...sekurang kurangnya berilah pujian jangan dikutuk...sebab kita pun hanya tahu cari benda salah dan kelemahan orang lain dan bukan kelemahan kita sendiri....aku beri 3 bintang untuk datuk siti nurhaliza....syabas.
brianshablee71 2 weeks ago
suara siti x berapa sesuai nyanyi lagu org puteh, sebab suara siti lembut sgt....tpi tetp best..........................
nik6487 3 weeks ago
OMG i love Celine Dion.. i also love Siti Nurhaliza.. i love both of them but.......what happened with this video..its good if u can separate the voice so then we can hear the differences and we can hear that both of them got their own advantages ..
Willdayzee 1 month ago
Celine Dion always be in my heart <3 !!! Malaysia love Celine Dion
treesphotochic 1 month ago
this is a joke... ridiculous... it is not comparable dude.. c'mon be real!
rianrinaldidjita 1 month ago
CELINE DION BY MILES! NO COMPETITION HERE!!
HijauKertas 1 month ago
VERY BAD MIXING...APA LA...MALAUN MANA BUEK NI...
JoeyMollo 1 month ago
enough....she already popular singer in malaysia....i love her....
hairie789 3 months ago
oh gosh! what kind of recording is this????? either u ask siti or celine to sing .... but dont put them together in arecording like this., super amateur .....
& yet its not "live" .... OMG!!!!!!
7MMmonkey 3 months ago
The ability and the way of people are different. Is it fair if we say it's not the same, not good? Meanwhile, we may not be able to do what they do. Do not see what they have to contribute but ask yourself what we can do things that they did.
obertz1 3 months ago
jelek
rinny1221 4 months ago
aq tk leh terima,,mmg kedua2nya best,cuma tk sesuai disatukan tnpa rela..berkecamuk..siapa yang buat ni..buat aq marah la.. by the way,both of them have their own style as a singer... muahh for siti & celine..
wanawin26 4 months ago
both are good. better than anyone of you. so stop comparing them.. each of them has their own talents and flaws. just sit and listen will do good. :)
BintuHurairah 4 months ago
it's obvious the fan did this video! how could siti do this kind of video... HAHA!!
justluvn4eva 5 months ago
org edit nih sgaja wat ianya jd x best..arrrrrrr
gereksab 5 months ago
siti ruin the song :/ hurting my ears. NO BLENDING NO HARMONY
SONGBiRD917 5 months ago 3
siti sing with lower tone...but her voice is great..celine is powerful and better..:)
GRACE050792able 5 months ago
sy suka keduanya.. hehhee
putrapenggembara 5 months ago
siti voice much better than celline....but celline is a very great singer... love both of them...
MrBob01991 5 months ago
because you destroy my song~~~
fye71 5 months ago 3
@fye71 haha~
Nenekmu777 5 months ago
sure le celine dion d best :)
kidong1993 6 months ago
You really destroy their beautiful voice by mixing their voice... It's out of tune of course....Sorry...
gasingyoyo 6 months ago
of course this was editted rite???
cytoplasmful 6 months ago
duu-dua best ! tapi of course celine dion the best !! nobody can beat her !
cytoplasmful 6 months ago
You probably shouldn't have tried to match up the song together it sounds horrible. Both are singing on different keys.
MsFizz85 6 months ago
dua2 best.... tp mcm mane pun i like both of them... diva of the world is celinedion but diva in malaysia is dato siti... <3 them... muah!!!
queenbellanita 6 months ago
any way celine is my favorite.....siti was good to ...but cant feat celine....sorryy
soulvampire2 7 months ago
oh! )PLEASE!!!!! what is going on??? why this Bloody old fashion singer Siti was paired to the superstar legend ? what a prat! Siti pls duest with your malaysian counterparts not this one....your aiming to far that you can reach kampong girl!!!
greatking2007 7 months ago
@greatking2007 ur just jealous cos you can't sing to save your family's life. Siti sing's this song better than any Asian singer, dumbass.
MsFizz85 6 months ago
pingin lihat gambar yang asli...
Super14081984 7 months ago
I like them both.
diane1556xj 7 months ago
EDITED
MrNurkahn 8 months ago
Which one Sitti Nurhaliza's voice....I think they are not singing duet with Celine Dion...LOL
Philippines
MrNurkahn 8 months ago
SITI have her own way of singing someone's song without making it sounds bad ! both of them are great singer ;D
TheShahlilashahari 9 months ago 3
GEMPAK lah Dato Siti Nurhaliza nyanyi lagu "Org Putih" Go Siti!!!! :D
RedFellaMovie 10 months ago
Both of 'Her' are so gorgeous.... ^^
rinaariyani880 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
SITI have a good voice, soft and pleasant to be heard, also has a high voice. Charice only have a high voice BUT NOT sweet to be heard, SITI has everything people want to hear. FOR CHARICE ALSO HAVE TALENT IS NOT DISCLAIMED..
FanFanatik 11 months ago
Rileks ar.. Celline pun kalo nyanyi lagu melayu hancuss kot- im not siti big fan kott..
flibuddie 11 months ago
I'm so sorry, but I can't relate as a voice of Asia in this duet I don't think so. If she sings alone and yes, she got a beautiful voice.
Lazer2007 11 months ago
SITI have a good voice, soft and pleasant to be heard, also has a high voice. Charice only have a high voice BUT NOT sweet to be heard, SITI has everything people want to hear. FOR CHARICE ALSO HAVE TALENT IS NOT DISCLAIMED..
AnneForever85 11 months ago 22
siti's voice is just ordinary,charice is exceptional!!!!charice voice is more powerful!!
starg20 11 months ago
@starg20 :-) yes Charice's voice is powerful and strong and high. But Siti's voice is very sweet, and pleasant to the ear. Like a fleeting symphony, don;t you think? Don't be too quick to judge my friend. Give her a chance.
cookytara 10 months ago 3
@starg20 yes her voice is powerful but siti knows how to sing beautifully and with feelings. charice is like showing off but among teen singers she is the best
DeanneLucify 9 months ago
@starg20 org malaysia yg bodoh je rendahkan siti xakui suara siti luarbiasa.. dan yg minat lebih2 kat charice satu spesies dgn pinoy..
horzun 8 months ago 10
@horzun merepek kau nie
1304Aman 1 month ago
it's not actually a duet..i think this is edited..
haniesmiaow 11 months ago
THIS duet, with different keys, sounds horrible!!!
It would have been better if U edited it one song after the other.
This is an AURAL ASSAULT/ABUSE. fyi
Both singers, though have beautiful voices.
but this "duet" does both singers injustice.
I did not even finished listening. Just giving my 2 cents.
EPIC FAIL!!!!
TheKb117 11 months ago
Sitti nurhaliza is a great and talented singer i really like her but Charice is a gifted singer plus her voice is fuller and denser than Sitti ..just saying..
archidexterous20 1 year ago
Bagai Planet Utarid n Pluto kalau nk bandingkan Ct dgn Celine dione! WTF?
HijauKertas 1 year ago
to me celine dion is much better, but Ill support Siti. My Favourite artist. One of Talented Malay.
KimChiiSoup 1 year ago
bagi rosak hancur lagu ble la.......
vincevictorious 1 year ago
GOD!!!! porak peranda jd nyaa.... ish3.... ko reti edit gambar je la bro...kalo nak edit sound2 ni, baik ambek PhD dulu.... =.="
boyndut90 1 year ago
TO ALL FILIPINOS....WHY ARE YOU SO JEALOUS ABOUT OUR LOVING SINGER? ARE WE CARE ABOUT YOUR SINGER????DONT TALK BAD ABOUT OUR GIRL COZ WE DONT CARE YOURS!!! AND ONE MORE THING,DONT BE THAT PROUD THAT UR ARTIST HAD MAKE IT TO THE HOLLYWOOD,COZ UR ARTIST IS A BEGGAR!!!FILIPPINE IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THEM TO FIND MONEY. PLUS,UR UGLY GURL CANT BE COMPARE WITH OUR ANGEL.DO I CARE ABOUT UR FAT CHARICE?LOL...MY GRANNY IS MUCH BEAUTIFUL THAN HER...
zuaikha 1 year ago
@zuaikha No need to be hyper and racist. We're talking of talent here. Ur comment shows Ur poor character in insulting others and not staying on topic. I admit Siti is more beautiful than Charice. But they are singers. And U are too narrow-minded for all these negative comments. I love Siti's sweet voice. Though, I prefer Charice's voice when it comes to big, powerful songs. Peace.
PS. Turn off comments if U do not want negative comments.
TheKb117 11 months ago
whose siti shes just an malaysian icon...hope she can be as famous as charice coz i like her voice too...
rey012 1 year ago
@rey012 becoz she's not using the youtube to paste her talent like charice
zubection 1 year ago
@zubection Then what is preventing her from? It's one of the venues for talents to showcase their crafts.
TheKb117 11 months ago
dua2 ni beza pitch die..tu yg x serasi mase gabungkan
Ac0uSticHAnZ 1 year ago
pd yG rSa xsdp 2 xpyH La dgR....ko ktuk dato ct ko dpt pe?bkn dpt duiT p0n tp dpt bnDa yg k0 xNmpk skUnk tp nMpk msA ko mtI nNtI..
syahrul23opitus 1 year ago
sengal la....dua dua nyanyi sedap..tp bila dah digabungkan..trus x sdap
aridhzuan 1 year ago
sharp dissonance!
Ericlb 1 year ago
oh my goshhhhh!!!!
Eyla3003 1 year ago
rosakkan audio je la
eun1426 1 year ago
Ni apehal ngan lagu ni? Dah jadi tah apa-apa tah...rosak kan melodi lah...
zammohd1 1 year ago
@zammohd1 betul 2x
eun1426 1 year ago
hah..charice???
has her perform in royal albert hall in london???
naufalANTZ 1 year ago
@naufalANTZ italy..korea..japan..america..oprah show..or another else..she was perform there..she's so talented..just google charice pempego "listen"..its amazing..she also had a duet with celline dion of bcuz u love me..
nAtOoLFa 1 year ago
ofcoz celine dion is the best...
jblackmoore 1 year ago
Siti sound nothing like Celine and I'm not impress at all. Charice sound like a millions time better than Siti.
oneviwatara 1 year ago 3
@oneviwatara DO I CARE bout that???
for me charis voice is familar
NO ONE IN THE WORLD has voice solid like Siti...dont be jelez okay phiggy!!
MegaArgena 1 year ago
@MegaArgena Charice, is currently has the best female voice in history rightnow. Please watch her videos like Am I'm Telling You I'm Nothing on StarKing by Jenniffer Holliday, I Have Nothing by Whitney on Oprah, My Heart Will Go On on Oprah by Celine,Note To God on Opah, One Moment In Time live @ Asap by Whitney,Earth Song by MJ live @ Las Vegas, My Grown Up Christmas list and Jingle. Siti duet with Celine was horrible.
oneviwatara 1 year ago
@MegaArgena You may not care and your stands, for you that is. But to say say Charice voice is "familiar" or what U may mean as normal-sounding goes against popular opinion. Charice voice is powerful and has a wide range, yet it can also sound sweet. Can U provide a vid of Siti singing as powerful as Charice. And don't go ranting racist slur.
TheKb117 11 months ago
arghh!!!
due2 penyanyi pebret aku....
suke sangat sangat sangat sangat!!
budakzbesau 1 year ago
They never ever made a duet. You lied. They were obviously separate records that you fused together to make a horrible off-beat remix.
Choosilicious 1 year ago
wow both of them are good in singing this song..cd she's just lucky...
MrFbi91 1 year ago
niec I like ...?
ozzykimie 1 year ago
1st: Lagu ni mmg sedap.
2nd: Kedua2 penyanyi mmg superb.
3nd: Gambar cunn, sgt kreatif.
4th: mixed --> hancur semua yg 3 perkara kt atas tu.
MrBard0000 1 year ago
Siti tpksa pkai note rendah..the reality is she cnot compete the ori celine key note..it's the reality ;p
TheJaycline 1 year ago
anyway celine dion still the best
c4prlm4st3r 1 year ago
gosh sakit sa tenga ah hndi mg match
evelyn23637 1 year ago
just Search SARAH GERONIMO THE POPSTAR PRINCESS OF THE PHILIPPINES and I surely agree that you believe that SHE IS THE CELINE DION OF ASIA.
kgkusain 1 year ago
Just search SARAH GERONIMO THE POPSTAR PRINCES OF THE PRINCESS and you will surely agree that She is the Celine Dion of the Asia.
kgkusain 1 year ago
hadoiii... dah sah2 la yg CD pnyer studio version, meanwhile CT plak live version, of course la the quality will be far different. That was not a fair mash-up.
danishvee04 1 year ago
@danishvee04 yang Celine Dion memang cd punya version...
tapi kalau live version siti mesti jatuh kalah.....
sebab Celine punya live version lebih hebat tau..
TheIhsan96 1 year ago
sitis voice is too low to sing this song. it sounds karaokiesh.. especially when celine sang... heyyyyyy yaaahhhhh... Siti's voice was drowned and gone.. like "poof"..
sxybachottie 1 year ago
I this some sort of mashup? They would never release something like this.
Frisbieinstein 1 year ago
cantik gambar,tahniah,tp tak puas dgr bila digabung serentak..dh mcm seram mendengarnya,..
MrLoveCt 1 year ago
eh korang ni bengap pe. da tentu2 smer org ada masing2 punye key notes tersendiri masa bernyanyi. cd ada sndri. ct pun ada sndri. pe yg salah note la pe mepek korg bual nie. haizzzz.
Vod77 1 year ago
I noticed that Siti's voice will rival Celine's but only if there are consistencies in high and low notes. She definitely has the voice but she has yet to learn to blend in and be consistent. She just killed the song...Sorry
ailafahde97 1 year ago
@ailafahde97 siti can never make it in the us market as well in europe and asia like japan or china,she does not have the big voice,she does not have wide range enough to sing low notes and powerfull voice-vibratto,she sings good,but not that good..just watch her carreer..she made her carreer in her home land..nothing more,and dont say that singers dont like to be recognized global,cos thats a lie !! any singer want to be recognized global. where is she now? : (
steroidsR4loserswife 1 year ago
@steroidsR4loserswife: If you read my comment once more, you'll notice that I did not mention anything about singers not wanting to be recognize globally. But you were right about her singing style. Perhaps she can learn a great deal from the likes of Charice or Lea Salonga. Sorry but not impressed at her singing abilities.
ailafahde97 1 year ago
Ala, Siti nyanyi key lain laa.. kalu key sama dgn Celine, meletup dahh
mazms 1 year ago
ct lagi best! hahaahha
FerrRemy 1 year ago
jauh panggang dr api nk banding kan CT dgn CD.. cehh... siti sengau je..
HijauKertas 1 year ago
siti masa ni nyanyi live..celine dr cd...
so mana lg bagus?
Eiysain 1 year ago
she has a soothing voice but not as good as celine
erchunt 1 year ago
not as good as celine, not even close
erchunt 1 year ago
nampak hidung siti tak mancung. hahahahah, tapi siti muka asia ... cool
zuhaimei 1 year ago
good...
goldenficus 1 year ago
Siti nyanyi note bawah dari celine, arrangement len2, so bila campur, no komen. Tapi kalau asing2 sedap, cuma bila campur, bunyinya....... Btw, hati2, video ni boleh jadi target "negara" jiran negeri di bawah bayu. Anyway, good attempt!! XD
snowvine 1 year ago
suara unik...
MsRebikah 1 year ago
sedap cara ct nyanyi.....romantik gtu
MrDekde 1 year ago
lau c celine ni nyanyi lagu cindai mesti out......hehe.adat r bahasa org.kdg mat salleh pun pegi odisen AI pun cam sial....sedap kita g....hehe
MrDekde 1 year ago
ct nyanyi sweet,celine nyanyi bjiwa...
MrDekde 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
mcm langit dgn bumi Ct kalau nk compare dgn Celine..siti perlu byk belajar lg..pitching byk yg out la..
HijauKertas 2 years ago
siti's voice is soft...she sing this song in her own way...love her! BTW ,celine's voice also good to hear
TheNarusa 2 years ago 2
dua2 nyanyi sdap..susah nak pilih mana lbih best..tp bila dua2 digabungkan secara 'paksa-rela' ... lagu terus punah... haha!
lieyo85 2 years ago 25
@lieyo85 btul la.... range voice celine tinggi dicampur dengan siti hancur jadinya.... mula2x sedap jer telinga dengar lepas gabungkan hancuss...jadinya....
deansabbas81 1 year ago
@lieyo85 pakse -rela eh ?hee
akmakamarudin 4 months ago
suara siti x leh tarik cam celine dion..kesian siti..rosak lagu ni..
HijauKertas 2 years ago
hijau kertas kamu makan babi!
seannhurbert 2 years ago
@seannhurbert
aku x mkn babi la babi..
HijauKertas 2 years ago
oh pasti. babi tidak makan babi sendiri.
seannhurbert 2 years ago
@seannhurbert
yup, sbb babi tu adalh ko la babi..
HijauKertas 2 years ago
yup yupe awak sekor babi gay bumiputra
ganyang!
seannhurbert 2 years ago
@seannhurtbert
dh la babi mls au nk layan babi mcm ko..buang masa je..kasihan kau...get a new life yer BABI..bye BABI..
HijauKertas 2 years ago
omongnya bagai saorang pengecut!
pastinya seekor babi yang gay.
karena gambarnya seorang pompuan yg seksi. walhal orangnya itham!
hahaha
seannhurbert 2 years ago
@seannhurbert
ko ni orang indon ek?? waduh3.. drpd ko langsung x letak gambar.. dh tentu ko sendiri malu dgn muka sendiri yg burok tu..dsr hendon!!!
HijauKertas 2 years ago
padahal orang hitam!
sangat lucu...hahahaha.
kau mahu gambar ku? muka ka batang pelir ku? hahahahaha.
call me....uols.the very der jantan. kasi tutuh jubor the hijaukertas tu pasti dia seronok. ahaks! dasar gay.
seannhurbert 2 years ago
@seannhurbert
sudah la tu ko..konon verangan nk letak origin country Australia..belah la lu.. ntah2 uma ko bwh jambatan kot...
pelir ko tu bg la adik beradik ko mkn.. dsr bajingan Indon..
HijauKertas 2 years ago
different arrangement, sounds bad.. =( but both are my idols.. =)
azharkent 2 years ago
What an awful duet.
racket247 2 years ago
the difference is Dato' Siti is singing with lower key..but both has prowess vocals..
Secretzsavvy 2 years ago
sedap
luvmakforever 2 years ago
good.. tp audio nape x lah jd x sedap..
budakpendekk 2 years ago
cantik gambar ni...pandai u buat.!! Great job!!
amyliamorasca 2 years ago 17