US needs UK style HEALTHCARE, must see!

[dabeaner12345]

is college free and what about gay rights

[AbuAvital]

@dabeaner12345 in the US gays have more rights than anyone else

[truthseekers666]

@dabeaner12345 I agree gay people in college should have free NHS!?! ;-)

[mwillis1000]

Our health care system is one of the best, and so is our education system. But America has pretty shit health care and education system.

[DragonQ]

I agree with a lot of what you say and think the NHS is probably the greatest thing this country has ever created. However, your comments about how much the NHS costs individuals are greatly exaggerated. Someone earning £25k per year will pay about £2.5k of that to national insurance (~£180 per month). Not quite the £5 you mentioned...

[davijeph]

@DragonQ But the main purpose of NI contributions is too pay for the state old age pension benefits not pay for the NHS.

[nowthatsinteresting1]

Healthcare for the US: $6000 per capita. Healthcare for UK: $2500. How can you argue that the US 's is an efficient system?

[truthseekers666]

@nowthatsinteresting1 Good point.

[LibertyDownUnder]

The NHS is 'free' of charge (paid via income taxes). It employs more admin staff than doctors and nurses.

They just cancelled hip replacement surgery procedures as they cost too much. Not point spending money on the old, hey...

If they catch you using private medicine - they kick you out of the system for life.

.

Just the other night I was sitting at a Thai restaurant and thinking to myself - why can't the Government take over the restaurant industry? It would run so much better!!

[swordhunter12]

@LibertyDownUnder You talk as if all of these problems are inherent and unsolvable when all of them are a result of poor management and can be cured with the right leadership. If you don't believe me Google "How to Cure the NHS in One Day" and choose the first option.

[LibertyDownUnder]

@swordhunter12, thanks for the link!

I read it. But it ignores the root of the problems it raises.

Corruption and in-efficiency STEM from Government involvement. They go hand in and hand and are practically unseperable.

One of the solutions it offers is: "Sack 90% of NHS administrators". Fantastic idea! In theory.

How do you do that without the unions torching half the UK?

The article has some great points, but I just doubt any of the solutions are possible while Government is involved.

[swordhunter12]

@LibertyDownUnder A fair point but I figured the government merely funded the NHS rather than fully controlling it. I also thought Thatcher got rid of the unions. Were they brought back? It's also been said that the NHS is essentially Socialist healthcare and I've heard from people (civilians, not government officials) who support Socialism that a government is not required for a Socialist country. Personally with all it's faults I still like the NHS but the hospitals are very hit and miss.

[LibertyDownUnder]

@swordhunter12, when you control the funding you control everything. The UK Government cancelled hip replacement surgeries just recently.

So apart from the hospitals, you're happy with the NHS !??

Gee, I hope you never need to go to a hospital in the UK...

This one is not about the NHS but you may find it interesting:

/watch?v=-v66o_X8F4I

It covers the US system and its problems

[swordhunter12]

@LibertyDownUnder I went to see the NHS about a broken arm and got treated that very day as I recall. Also you've misinterpreted my comment; what I meant was that some NHS hospitals are great and some are terrible and some hospitals are better for certain diseases and conditions then others. Thanks for the link but I've already seen that video. I do, however, feel the video made some good points except for the "Grocery Insurance" argument which imo was one of the dumbest comparisons of all time.

[LibertyDownUnder]

@swordhunter12, the grocery insurance is not a perfect example but it explains the unintended consequences of excessive dependency on insurance.

When the customer doesn't care about costs, the costs spiral up.

I'm sure if you (or a Doctor) sat down and thought about it, you could find 100 ways to improve the NHS, but all of them would be blocked by beaurocracy.

Prices in just about every privatised industry have fallen over time, but in Government run industries they keep spiraling up.

[truthseekers666]

@LibertyDownUnder Where do you get yoru info from. They still do hip replacement surgeries. How could they not. Thats liek sayin they dont bother to treat heart attack patients any more.

[LibertyDownUnder]

@truthseekers666, I can't find the article but many hospitals simply ran out of money & resources and had to cancel scheduled hip replacement procedures.

I seriously don't understand your point of view about the NHS and socialised medicine in general.

I understand why poor people need it, but why create an entitlement for the whole population?

Can you really not see the problems this creates with waste, queues, cost blow outs, admin work, fraud, neglect etc?

[truthseekers666]

@LibertyDownUnder they may have had to cancel some hip operations under ONE NHS trust but not everywhere all over teh country, just in one specific area. Trusts are independent. The operations would have been rescheduled. Everyone knows there is too much admin in the NHS and this will get better. The NHS has always meant that the poorest man to the richest man are treated fairly. The richest man can get even better than NHS and go private if he wants and this frees up the system.

[LibertyDownUnder]

@truthseekers666, there's still people waiting years for certain procedures and it makes no sense.

You tax everyone, and allow everyone to use the system 'for free' - obviously you'll get queues. Why not give people the option to opt out and get a tax cut?

Lets say for procedures up to 2000 quid - you dont qualify for NHS assistance, and you get a 2000 quid tax break. Working people will opt to get private care and take a load off the system.

[LibertyDownUnder]

@truthseekers666, I can't find the article but many hospitals simply ran out of money & resources and had to cancel scheduled hip replacement procedures.

I seriously don't understand your point of view about the NHS and socialised medicine in general.

I understand why poor people need it, but why create an entitlement for the whole population?

Can you really not see the problems this creates with waste, queues, cost blow outs, admin work, fraud, neglect etc?

[Freddie1980]

@truthseekers666 - I think he might have read about cancer patients who opt for private treatment rather then NHS treatment who loose entitlement to future NHS funded cancer healthcare which is true but I don't think it applies to all treatments like hip replacements.

[nowthatsinteresting1]

@LibertyDownUnder Cancelled hip replacements? Getting kicked out because you use private medicine? Total bollocks mate.

[dan11009]

@LibertyDownUnder this is bullshit, my mother has had a hip replacement 6 years ago , and is scheduled for the other to be done early next year - free of cost

[LibertyDownUnder]

@dan11009, not all areas & hospitals are in this situation and many had to cancel these procedures altogether.

[wind4watts]

ABSOLUTELY USA system stinks, I have spoke to folk who have said this, it dumps Patients outside Hospitals to die if they find they don't have Insurance. I owe my Daughter Life to our NHS she was in Hospital twice for around 15 Days, tests 24 hour care, Tests Medication didn't cost us one Penny-Dollar, I was very ill aswell but they treated me so quickly I haven't had trouble since, US Poor people get little-no treatment so get worse.BUT THEY GIVE ISRAEL $15 Billion a Year to Murder??

[LibertyDownUnder]

@wind4watts, I'm not advocating you guys ditch the NHS. I'm saying you stop encouraging the entire country to depend on it.

It makes no sense for a guy earning 100 grand a year to stand in a queue and burden the public system.

If you simply give tax incentives for people who can afford private health to get care outside the NHS - you would have much shorter queues, and more services available.

[wind4watts]

@LibertyDownUnder Many folk do go Private Bupa etc if they choose to, especially Businessmen (my Employer is having a wrist operation in a Week or so) but for most facing £90,000 for a Heart Operation or Life long diabetes treatment isn't affordable or realistic, Working Ordinary folk in US just have to 'chance it' Spoke to Chicago guy about this..

[LibertyDownUnder]

@wind4watts, a tiny, tiny % of procedures is as serious as a heart operation, and in those cases most rich people will also need either Government or private insurance companies to help.

The tax incentives can be given to encourage a more cash based system. Where admin costs are very low.

And if once in a blue moon you break your arm and need 400-500 pounds to cover expenses - do you really need the Government to tax you thousands of pounds every year to pay for it?

[AUTubeN22]

i got my head smashed in by a cricket bat in school when i was 13 by a 14yo i got a free ambulance some x-rays a brain scan, stitches in my head & in my thumb which was almost crushed too when i tried to protect myself! did'nt cost my working parents a penny! the boy who attacked me on perpous because he was losing the game and i bold him out, got away scot free too. as you know we only just started prosecuting 10 to 17 yo kids in our country! not a bad free sevice only £100b to the tax payers!

[AmericanPlatinum]

California is about the size of Britain...but it's healthcare system for the poor has collapsed because what we have the British don't...is tens of millions of international and Mexican immigrants, including several million undocumented in Los Angeles County...that Britain doesn't have AND...(like the feared Rivers of Blood Speech) the immigrant lobbyists have convinced the country that it's WRONG to control immigration or stop it....so California healthcare collapsed inc no HIV drugs for poor !

[thoughtsurfer1]

As an American, I'd like to thank you for clearing up the right-wing bullshit I have to live with everyday. I've been unemployed for 2 years and have no coverage, so I have to depend on my county hospital. I should be able to go to any hospital in any city and not have to worry about costs. That's the beauty of NHS and the crap that is American "free enterprise".

[sh856531]

Whilst its not quite true that socialised medicine costs a "miniscule" amount - it does cost about *half* what the Americans pay, whilst protecting *everyone*.

Cost per capita 07 ($):

JPN: 2729

UK: 2990

GMNY: 3619

US: *7285*

And the ridiculous thing is most of the countries protect everyone and beat the pants off of the US on most healthcare outcome indicators!

Oh - and no-one goes bankrupt in these countries because their son/daughter got ill.

You are being lied to America!!!

[realAmerican1969]

WE NEED HELP OUR GOVERMENT WONT LISTEN THEY ONLY LISTEN TO BIG INSURANCE< PROTEST< POLLS< THEY DONT LISTEN

[onlymejules]

Paracetamol you can get in the UK from most shops without a prescription. Cost.. about 50c

Same with aspirin, Ibuprofen and other low level painkillers. No need to see a doc for these.

Your health insurance companies in the USA are ripping you off left right and centre. Of course they don't want change.

[truthseekers666]

20p for Ibuprofen in Lidls in the UK. This stuff is made in India for like .001p I bet!

[Tobrwa]

The issue is not a government option, I'm all for that, the issue is forcing people to pay for a mandatory service they may not want. That's what the real argument is in the US.

[twrldr1]

Its too bad pharma and Insurance companies own the Republican party in the U.S. I am a Yank that wishes we had a U.K. system...

[robotracking]

A good friend of mine living in New York, once shocked me when she said that she had to pay $20 for pain killers.............WTF, they where only PARACETAMOL. In the UK you can get a box of 500g each tablets (32 in all) for less than one pound. What a shit system you have in the USA, The land of the free.....lol

[65adela]

As an american citizen my husband pays for us

(family of 3) 4,000 dls a year, that doesnt include our copays pervisit $10, 50 for emergency visits

and 150 to see a specialist, I still have to dish out for my prescription medication, my birth control pills,hormone pills, antibiotics which is about another 1,000 per year, so how are people who dont work supposed to survive. We could be doing so much better if we saved that money. Help other people., etc..

[mrmaje1]

Disappointed....only looked to see right wing Americans foaming and ranting in the comments.......a sadly disappointed harrumph!

[Anteater1234567]

Except that I am British.

[Emmets]

As much as prove that the European system is better, I think the Americans will never prefer It. There is too much individualism, and what is worse: a terrible fear of anything that resembles socialism.

[toweronepower]

Yeah i believe fear to be something of the 'watch word' in the states

[donnomar]

That's because they have been brain wash, most americans older than 30 will react to the word socialism as if you were talking about the devil, good to see younger generations with a more open point of view, there is a hope for america

[Anteater1234567]

Hell, its so free that it costs the taxpayer over £100 billion every year.

[truthseekers666]

Well thats a snip when you give out 1 trillion to the Banks who promise to "HEAL" the mortgage situations and then take that money and use it to BUY OUT OTHER BANKS so no man on the street is helped at all. Yeah perhaps you need a banking style health system in the US where the rich get helped and the poor get fucked. Oh sorry, you have that already and it costs a mint. hehe!!!!

[Anteater1234567]

American healthcare costs:

50% -Medicare, Medicaid. Supplies 25% of Americans with healthcare

25% -Very high cost insurance of the very rich, for whom money is no object, supplying the top 5%.

25% -Private enterprise, supplying 55% of normal, average Americans.

Notice how the cost to the normal, average American per person covered privately is less than a quarter of the cost of supplying one American publicly.

[truthseekers666]

Funny how Michael Moore said Americas hospitals are amongst the worst for casualty waiting times and standards were considered low on the international lists. I dont like the idea of people having to pay and rich people getting even better care. Flat rated systems where eveyone gets the same is the fairest system in my opinion.

[Anteater1234567]

And note: I am English, and only wish I could have my £2000 on average per year spent on healthcare by the government back so that I could spend it myself.

[truthseekers666]

Rather a selfish outlook, one adopted by most Americans who think that having healthcare is wonderful when you pay insurance companies for it at much more than £2000 a year only to find you get stuffed for future cover if you ever make a claim. Then you get bumped alltogether because they try to catch you out. Is it worth playing games with nasty insurance companies like this when socialised healthcare offers no risks at all.

[Anteater1234567]

I am selfish? What about you who wants to take my money, through taxation, to spend on your healthcare.

But I am selfish, yes. That's why I work, for my benefit, and my reward. Incidentally, everyone else benefits from my work too.

As for insurance companies, the only reason they get away with what they do in America is because of the licensing regulation that causes artificial scarcity, and reduces competition. America needs reform, I'll give you that, but reform to a true free market.

[truthseekers666]

Well see it works like this you consider it your money. Its not actually your money as its tax. So you get it taken from you before it becomes yours, so never was yours in the first place. You treat this money like its something you have lost when you never actually had it in the first place. Now you say you want it back. Saying i have a right to something you pay and you seem to think is yours seems wierd. I dont get it. I have paid my taxes too in my time. Still do... VAT etc..

[Anteater1234567]

As regards the bailout:

1 It's a Different issue

2 Who said I supported the bailout

I am in favour of pure freedom. So I don't want to be forced to pay for failing banks, and I don't want to be forced to pay for a failing health service.

I could point out that it was bureaucrat action, by setting the interest rates too low (BofE & Fed) so as to encourage reckless borrowing, by encouraging home ownership & mortgages to people for home ownership that caused a recession in the first place.

[truthseekers666]

Well the FED is the number one reckless lender because it used to lend 10 to 1 for gold assets it had in holding, now it lends 100 to 1. Who are they lending this money to? This devaluation is crazy and soon other countries are going to say "where is your gold".

[Anteater1234567]

Exactly, the Fed is stupid I don't see the case for the existence of the Fed, myself. It is primarily responsible for this mess.

[Anteater1234567]

Finally, given that you admit that you don't watch the news much, why do you think that you are fit to comment on it?

Why when you probably didn't know that, according to the Patients Association, 1 million people have received 'neglectful, demeaning, painful and sometimes downright cruel' treatment?

Why when you probably don't know that there are more administrators than medics?

Why when you probably aren't aware that the waiting list for a hip replacement is a year, in agony?

[truthseekers666]

I dont watch much news because its literally all govt bullshit propaganda and is designed to scare people. Thats the number one agenda of TV to control people through fear. Yes I feel I can comment on some things that happen. I could say the converse for you perhaps you are best not commenting because you watch too much propaganda and such people like yourself cant see the wood for the trees. Social healthcare is the only real answer for civilised countries. Blues dont get this.

[Anteater1234567]

I am English, and watch English TV. I also inform myself from many sources as to the facts, and come to my own conclusion as to the opinion.

If the Media was getting to me, being in Britain, I would have a typical British view. In other words, I'd be agreeing with you.

[truthseekers666]

So where are you from now. You live in the US. You dont think US pripaganda to preserve its elitist healtcare system hasnt changed your views? How can you hate the NHS having lived in the UK? This just doesnt make sense. Seems like insanity. Nobody from the UK would want to live in the US under pay for healthcare. I have never met one person! If they got ill they all say theyd come home. Wonder why. USA sucks for healthcare, innit!

[Anteater1234567]

I don't live in the US, and never have. Your own close-mindedness is shown by that assumption you make.

How can I hate the NHS? Because it costs the average citizen more, because it provides lower treatment rates for cancer, stroke and heart disease, because it leaves you waiting for 12 months for essential hip or knee replacements, because it leaves its hospitals unclean, because it stunts research and development of drugs, because it treats the patient not as a customer but as a supplicant.

[truthseekers666]

Well one assumes when you NHS bash in favour of USA system you must be in USA. Ok. Well when have you actually been let down by the NHS yourself. Its like saying London is full of muggers when you have bnever been mugged in London. I personally love the NHS. My family and I have received perfect treatment over the years. Yes one might have to wait in line for more serious patients to be treated. However this is better than no treatment ever and pain until you die.

[Anteater1234567]

You speak purely from anecdotal evidence, which is worthless. You can't claim that being shot doesn't kill because you survived a gunshot wound. In the same way you cannot claim that the NHS is good because you have received good care. There are good doctors and nurses in any system; there are bad doctors and nurses in any system.

My point is this: the NHS provides worse care for a higher cost than the private sector in America. You need to quote actual facts to refute that, not anecdotes.

[loudman12]

ok then heres a fact 30 million uninsured american citizens look it up

[Anteater1234567]

I know. That is a failure of American legislation that prohibits the creation of collectives who pay a doctor to be permanently in their service. That practise was very common in the first half of the 20th Century, but the medical trade lobbied for it to be banned so as to force people to use more expensive case-by-case payment. Had the government not made that legislation, those who were uninsured would still be using this to get good healthcare. Some being uninsured doesn't justify socialism.

[loudman12]

wait there a seond were not socialist or the NHS is im sick and tired of people saying it is the NHS is still to this day a great idea it is free on the point of use and if my taxes goes towards a lady suffering from breast cancer her treatment if i dont need to use a hospital then great. The NHS has its issues but when i have used them its been first class and even if it was socialist then thats better than the third world american system

[Anteater1234567]

1. Free market (distinct from American) healthcare is better than socialist healthcare from a utilitarian perspective, as I have explained in my previous posts.

2. The NHS is funded in accordance to ability and provides in accordance to need. That is the very definition of socialism/marxism. I maintain that socialism is immoral, because it denies people their property right.

[loudman12]

wait there double standards in america explain the funding off the police force post office and the fire service by your own logic does america not have any form of socialism

[Anteater1234567]

Government, as a monopoly over use of force, necessitates policing, and is necessary since man is fallen.

Regarding the other two, yes America has socialism- I'm not arguing for American government, but against the NHS. Why put me in a "pro-America" box when I have clearly contradicted it?

[BeingTheHuman]

@Anteater1234567

You are an idiot. Anyone who supports a system where people in dire need of care, are dumped on the streets by the hospital if they cant pay their bills, is evil. The American system of health care is evil. Those that defend it are evil. You...are evil.

[Anteater1234567]

@BeingTheHuman I consider you evil. I consider forcing people to pay for the healthcare of others evil. I do consider the American system to be evil, but evil because the US government is responsible for more than half the healthcare spend.

Unless you intend to back up the ethical system that requires the government to rob Peter to treat Paul, you've said nothing.

[BeingTheHuman]

@Anteater1234567

You have zero sense of Social Responsibility dont you? How is it evil to be willing to pay a little extra in tax, to ensure that EVERYONE has healthcare? Help your fellow man...isnt that something noble? You have just show how truly selfish you are. You have shown that you dont give a crap about ANYONE but yourself and your pocket book.

Fact is that this system has been in place in EVERY european country for decades. We want the USA to join the rest of us in the 21st Century.

[Anteater1234567]

@BeingTheHuman

Quite right, I am an egoist. What is wrong with that? I do things because they are valuable to me. That means I will pay for my family's healthcare, but am frankly indifferent about a stranger's.

However I do care about people other than myself and things other than my pocket book. I care about my friends and family, and I care about knowledge for its own sake.

Hurrah, Europe does it so it must be right! True, America's system is wrong; it is not free, because lobbies run it.

[Anteater1234567]

@BeingTheHuman You are free to be willing to pay tax, go ahead, but don't force paying tax on me. That- the use of force- is evil.

And why should I consider helping people who I don't care about noble?

[BeingTheHuman]

@Anteater1234567

Forcing you to do the right, Moral and socially acceptable and responsible thing is not evil. You....you are the onet hat is evil because you would rather watch another human being suffer than help them. You are a foul, selfish, self centred, self important rotten humanbeing.

[Anteater1234567]

@BeingTheHuman Ok, so because you know better than me what the good life is, I have no liberty. Fantastic system.

Yeah, I'm selfish, so? Yeah, I'm self centred, but what are you do you honestly think first about other people? When your suffering, do you think, "I'm glad its me, not somebody else"? No.

The fact is that my life belongs to me, and I intend to live it. I will not let the fact that I exist be a claim for anyone else to own me. I don't like to see people suffer, least of all, me.

[BeingTheHuman]

@Anteater1234567

When Im suffering and recieving medical care, I can tell you what I am not thinking. Im not thinking whether or not my insurance will cover my treatment, Im not worrying about loosing my home if my insurance company drops me like a rock without paying for my treatment.

Im also thinking, Im so glad I have a longer life expectancy than you. Because...I have come to the conclussion that you need to die you waste of a human being.

Rot in hell.

[Anteater1234567]

@BeingTheHuman I apologise for making the presumption that you would be thinking.

FYI, I live in the UK; I have been sick; I have found out how awful my health system really is.

1. I do not support the American system. I support a free market system, not a system where the government doesn't allow competition to act properly.

2. The figure 50million is exaggerated, and the fact that medicare and medicaid make it so that you don't need insurance is the driving force behind those figures.

[BeingTheHuman]

@Anteater1234567

Also...the fact that you support a system that forces thousands into poverty every year, a system that kills 13000 americans every year...a system that leaves 50million americans without medical care...show just how inhuman you are. You are a lowlife pile of grabage and I hope that one day, you get sick...and you find out just how aweful your health system really is when your insurance company screw you over.

[Anteater1234567]

@BeingTheHuman Also, you call me immoral for not caring about my fellow man, but look at you yourself. You say that I "need to die", that you hope that I get sick. Which of us is actually misanthropic.

Anyway, stop kidding yourself that you aren't an egoist, and stop lying to yourself to say that there is anything wrong with that.

What is wrong with egoism?

[Anteater1234567]

But above all, I oppose the NHS because of the moral principle-that it is proper for anyone else to take from any citizen's pocket in order to fund something for somebody else. I would not voluntarily join the NHS over paying a different private company, to force it upon me is to take away both my property and my choice, and it is morally wrong.

The reason people would come home if ill is so they can spread the cost around. But there is no right to force anyone else to pay for your healthcare.

[truthseekers666]

Well this whole idea of BUPA is just crap because all it does is adds your £1400 a year to what you already pay making it £3200 a year. You just jump up the queues faster thats all. Its still the same doctors, mostly the sams beds youll end up in. Its just for the rich to get better treatment whilst getting this benefit by "going first class" by paying extra. The taxpayer still props up this form of treament too though dont forget.

[Anteater1234567]

That's because the UK system is rubbish. The whole system is rotten. The NHS means that the market for private coverage is too small for it to work.

I don't think that a penny of the taxpayer's money should go to care for anyone else's health, lets allow the free market provide it, just as it provides food.

[toweronepower]

LOL There is still a thriving private healthcare market in the u.k Why do u make comments that u simply presume to be true

[Anteater1234567]

I have to say that a less than 10% market share simply cannot represent a thriving private healthcare market.

[toweronepower]

maybe its because the NHS provides better cover than 90% of the private coverage available?

Have you ever had to sign a release form before undergoing surgery promising that you wont sue if it goes horribly wrong?

THAT is truely MAD, very frightening. LACK of acountability in the USA system, much scope for abuse.

[Anteater1234567]

No, its because the NHS is at the point of use. It doesn't need to provide as good a service in order to compete. If you could get a car, funded through taxpayers money, worth 10k, you wouldn't decline it in order to buy a car for 9k that is just as good, nor would you decline it to buy a different car for 10k that is better.

Any treatment has risks, it's necessary to guarantee that people won't sue when it doesn't go as planned. However, if there is criminal negligence, then you can regardless

[onlymejules]

@Anteater1234567 People here have the choice to have NHS or private care. 40 million in the USA get second hand care due to or insufficient insurance. The idea is that you will now have a better choice which means more competition and hence lower prices.

You guys in the USA moan about BIG government yet allow BIG companies to commit day light robbery? Snake oil still rules I guess!!

[Anteater1234567]

@onlymejules 1. They only have that choice if they are rich enough to pay for healthcare twice. >90% are stuck with the NHS

2. The uninsured figure in America is inflated by the state systems which mean that you can get care without paying if you want to. This disincentivises being insured.

3. The NHS does not help competition, because it has a near monopoly position

4. I'm not American.

5. I'm in favour of relaxing laws to allow more competition. Licensing stops new business causing scarcity.

[onlymejules]

@Anteater1234567

1) There are many different private healthcare schemes, you don't need to be rich to appreciate most aspects of the business.

2) The quality of the care so it seems is 2nd class to insured people. The NHS provides the same quality to everyone.

3) The USA health system does not want competition, it HAS a monopoly and is taking advantage of that.

4) So what choice and property is taken away?

5) Licensing also prevents rouges and idiots from menacing consumers.

[sh856531]

@Anteater1234567

What if arranging the system that way literally HALVES the cost of healthcare provision?

What if not doing it that way results in poor people dying?

Does you're moral objection also extend to the police and fire departments? What about the US military or the state department? Are you morally opposed to paying for that as well? Or do you think those things should be based on inusrance? Even if it's twice as expensive? Really?

[cecilbdml]

Another thing to think about, and something I've been privvy to here in Oregon. When you tell doctors who have to pay for their education and employees, that they won't get paid due to government restrictions and the like, they LEAVE THE PROFESSION.

When Obstetricians were told that the state was going to limit their payments to Oregon Health Plan patients, but not limit their liability, they packed up and left.

Access to healthcare also means doctors available to provide it.

[cecilbdml]

One thing that no one in the 'socialized healthcare' countries talks about, is where those medicines and treatment technologies come from. They come from the profit-driven US healthcare industry. Without that profit system, those technologies, those medicines, and the force of scale are not available for ANYONE.

If you think our becoming socialized will mean we'll be more like you, you could be correct. Then, NEITHER ONE OF US would have those pills or MRIs.

[Shadownian]

You know what the biggest difference between the U.S. health care system and other countries is? Say now your paying 100 bucks a week in health cost out of a 400 dollar check. Next year that same insurance might cost 125 dollars a week, and the year after that 150 dollars. And all that time you pay stays the same. These other countries know what their health care will cost 10 years from now, cause it never changes.

[truthseekers666]

Good point. It seems you pay massive amounts of money to insurance companies who make major profits as do hospitals and doctors. If we take the word PROFIT or GREED out of the health question and wipe out these greedy people then suddenly your health care costs are reasonable because your not feeding the needs of greedy people and are just spending for administration of a public service which everyone should have access to.

[bayouxpat]

truthseekers666.. Guess what. I live in the UK. I've lived in the US. I've lived in Canada. I trained as a doctor (and can verify this unlike other internet nutjobs). UK healthcare SUCKS. People die here EVERY day because of inadequate health care. As long as its a cold, or a broken bone- you are most likely fine. But don't get anything else- seriously!!!! ITS ALSO NOT FREE!!!! Don't debate of US versus UK if you don't know what you are talking about!!!!

[oreilly8189]

Ive also lived in both countries and am medically trained. Are you trying to tell me that more people die in the UK every year because of 'inadequate healthcare'. If so you are nothing more than a lier. I think you will find that far more US citizens die each year because their own government doesn't care to help them. Its disgusting and makes me sick!!!

[shawry86]

at least all people get healthcare....yes its not really free cus its from taxes...but its still basically free..i was also in america and i saw how fucked up the system is there...the last thing you should worry about when your ill is money you fool

[lwsmackie4]

i seriously doubt you were trained as a Doctor - well you may have trained but didnt complete the course - you dont sound educated enough to be one - expand on your argument on certain cases & treatments - if you are a doctor you will know - then we'll decide

[truthseekers666]

So I have to be a doctor to decide what is best for the health service over all. I dotn agree. The health service inthe UK was created after pressure from the people and government implementation. I dont think David Lloyd George was a doctor when he proposed national insurance in 1911 nor the politicians who created the NHS in the 1940s after the war. Who needs to be a doctor in order to see the need for a National health service!

[truthseekers666]

Also it must be noted that many Doctors and the BMA were all against the creation of the NHS because it meant they couldnt create profit from other peoples diseases any longer and would be regulated to provide fair helathcare for everyone and for free. They didnt like this at all but were forced to do it. So thats what being a doctor would do for your position on this is it??? I cant comment because Doctors know best? hehe.

[avsiii]

truthseekers666, your are right on what you said about us, the United States.

I'm a diabetic, I was diagnose with it on the last quarter of 2007. On the first week on January of 2008... I've became very ill - I was hospitalized.

Being at the emergency room cost me more then $600 - That's just for staying at the emergency room for less then one day.

But, staying and getting treatments at the hospital cost me more then $10,000, that's for just staying at the hospital for less then one month.

[applefan23]

Actually we dont need national health care because it is hard as heck to see a Doctor now and if everybody had health care most of which are illegal immigrants dont need it and will cause it or make it harder to see a doctor

[msry4mf2]

I think your missing the point.

[truthseekers666]

I can see a doctor today if i want to , and get a referall immediately to a specialist. All for free. If being an Apple user says your system is better because you have to wait, then enjoy your wait and if you die in the meantime unable to pay for treament, enjoy your death gracefully. Brainwashed Apple man.

[avsiii]

You know what?

There's about 250,000,000 Americans in this country.... And, only about 2,000,000 illegal immigrants.

"That's like about .8% of this country population!"

If the United State would have a free national health care, it would be no problem. Changes are, that only 1% to 2% of the illegal immigrants will get this national health care.

"And that's not too many!"

"So, what the fuck are you talking about!!!"

[applefan23]

I dont care if it is less the 1% illegal immigrants dont need health care they came here illegally. Let them come here legally then they can get it other then that we dont need to give them anything they dont deserve.

[avsiii]

Who care if they came here illegally or not - Changes are your ancestor arrived here illegally as well...

"People like you are the invaders!"

"Which is the lesser evil?"

"Illegal immigrants or the invaders!"

Your ancestor hasn't been in this country since the beginning of time - NO ONE IS....

Your being so superficial, about a problem that's not even problem - There are so much problems in this country that should be addressed....

"LIKE THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM...!!!"

[applefan23]

Ok we didnt come here when there was a Government there was a form of currency etc. They are coming here with a Government currency health care social security. So they are hurting are economy and this will just help further that was well.

[avsiii]

First of all, the Native Americans was already occupying this land that became know as the United States... The Native Americans had a type of governing body - It's the counsel of elders or or just one elder that was the governing body. Their form of currency is trade, labor, working for the good of the community, and so on & so on....

And as for the social security, it was a lie. The social security was design to help keep the US out of depression.

[avsiii]

The social security was design to benefit the first and second generations who retires. By time I retire there wouldn't be any money in the social security system for me to live on nor for anybody for that matter. It's not because of the illegal immigrants, again changes are that only 1% to 2% of that 2,000,000 illegal immigrants are using the social security system.

Right now, those first and second generations who retired are the ones that is benefiting from the social security system.

[avsiii]

The social security system is like "insurance". Do you know how the "insurance" system works?

First of all, the social security system takes money from your pay check and it not much. And, use that money to pay the first and second generations who retired and it's a lot of money that they get from the social security system - There's now new rules that do not affect the first and second generations who retired.

[avsiii]

If I retire I wouldn't be getting the money that the social security system took out of my pay-check, in matter of fact, I'll be getting less then was taken from my pay-check. The first and second generations who retired are some-how getting more money from the social security system then was taken from their pay-check... That because the social security system does not works - It never work. And the people how created it, know that it well not work in the long term, only in a very short term.

[avsiii]

Right now the only people that's benefiting from the social security system are the the first and second generations who are already retired.

[silver760]

I am on the lowest rung of the ladder,after having to stop work due to illness.I claim "Incapacity" benefit which does NOT entitle you to free prescriptions!No free prescriptions/dentistry/eye tests/glasses/appliances&wigs.­I have to apply for an exemption each year,a booklet of some 15 pages!I only just barely qualify as they make the incapacity benefit a few PENCE over the entitlement threshold!I need some 20 prescription items,more as time goes on!Only those not working get free prescriptions

[truthseekers666]

Those forms are bum arent they. Can you stand. Can you sit. Can you pee with one person holding your penis for you. I always tick the last one and now a NHS nurse is permanently stationed in my loo wating for me. Hehe.

[silver760]

If only.........

[silver760]

If I had to pay for my prescriptions it would cost me hundreds and I cannot do without any of the items on my prescription,as time goes on my situation gets worse as the disease progresses,I now have to have testosterone shots every 3 months FOR LIFE as my testes have failed,these injections cost the NHS £90 a time.Another drug I use is Fentayl, a pain killer,£18 a timex2.I only just qualify for exemption,if that stops I will have to pay £95 a year for my scrips,expensive to me

[truthseekers666]

This is why our NHS is great. Why not get some sheep testes transplanted, theyre really massive so youd never need any more testosterone again. I know bad joke....

[silver760]

I was hoping to sell my nuts,I'm sure when they were working I could have got a few quid for them.Doesnt really matter they never saw/see any action anyway so they were surplus to requirements,apart from producing testosterone that was.I suppose the lack of action is what caused them to shut up shop?

[silver760]

Prescriptions are ONLY FREE in Wales,us English have to pay for prescriptions £8.00,pay for the dentist checkup £19.00.You also seem to forget that its not free as you pay for it in taxes,thats what "National Insurance" is for a little bit? 15% or more on your earnings.None of it is free.

[truthseekers666]

Technically you are right but techically I am right too... as I am on benefits and its all free if you are at the lowest end of the scale as am I. Indeed if you earn next to nothing then you dont anything towards it. Yes scales for what you have to pay get bigger as you earn more and this seems fair based on some people earning millions per month should be expected to pay more for their lavish incomes.

[truthseekers666]

Thanks for pointing this out BTW.

[truthseekers666]

I meant CUBA

[butlincat]

there are other complaints about the NHS other than car parking - like nurses wages to name one,but for a free system it is the best in the world, after having at leadt 15 major operations i would say im qualified to say this..

[exopol]

4. Also you make a fair point about the contradiction [one of many] about the USA being this leading light of morals and imagination...

I firmly believe the MOST ADVANCED societies can be judged purely on:

- How they deal with the sick and mentally sick

- How they treat prisoners/crims and prison population size.

- How they treat dissent

The USA comes low on all these points.

-

[truthseekers666]

here here!

[exopol]

3.

I asked her if she'd be happy being dumped at a voluntary shed of a "hospital" because she lived in the USA without basic insurance and thus could not get the same level of quality treatment as the heavily insured citizens??

The NHS is more than a place you treat sickness - its a model of what's possible outside of the corporate bubble 99% of our reality is now dominated by and where we are made to feel guilty for supporting is as if we're some new breed of Commies!

-

[truthseekers666]

Britain in dire suffering after the war came out with a ray of light that shone well. Others who havent suffered so bad... dont know they are living.

[exopol]

2.

I will defend the UK approach to health care for all till I die. I once got into a row with my brothers wife [an Aussie!] who came to work in the NHS for a few years and then fucked off [thank god] back to the Land of Oz because she said our NHS was a total joke and we needed to follow the privatised model to get anything done about it.

[truthseekers666]

Ozzies are a racist bunch of f***s at the best of time. Isnt Oz where they say the NWO will be run from. Hehe. Just joking of course. ?!?

[exopol]

1.

At last someone sticking up for Aneurin Bevan's great achievement. To be honest I've had long waiting times in A and E but once you are in care [hospitals anyway - my current GP is shite] the treatment is excellent and the staff are amazing given what they put up with.

[truthseekers666]

Its free, its quicker treatment times than in the US, and its cheaper than the US. Innit. Michael Moore hit the nail on the head. Cuna has better healthcare than the US.