On Abortion and refuting the idea of the total depravity of man

[theluellen]

I woke up this morning and heard the word Depravity

[theluellen]

In China they are making fetus soup and eating it. It is called spare rib soup. got to the web site the seoul times dot com

[gisellethegoat]

While I lean more to pro-choice I do agree that late term abortion gets into the sketch area between killing a pre person and killing a person. I think it should be limited to emergency situations only because if you honestly survive with pregnancy for that many months you may as well go full term unless your body is somehow in danger from the pregnancy.

However an early term abortion is a-ok for any reason imo. Especially considering how often pregnancy ends in miscarriage at that stage anyway

[d789b]

That identity is their image, we are all created in the image of God.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@sellingmypokecards Indeed, and they also begin to demonstrate altruism by about the age of 18 months. There are years of careful study involved in such conclusions.

[DeHerg]

I am sorry but even directed movements towards another twin do not indicate self consciousness and thereby personhood. Even worker ants move towards each other over quite some distance(directed by their sense of smell) and touch each other with their palps, yet it is clear that they don´t have any indication of self awareness, its just instinctive reaction.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@DeHerg The research on this is not so shallow as you imagine. Scientist are not your enemy, they do not concoct "Illuminati lies."

[DeHerg]

@allsaintsmonastery neither did I imply that their research was shallow nor that this is part of any kind of conspiracy. I googled and read the paper you mentioned and the only thing they ruled out was that those movements are reflexive reactions, this however does not conclude (your point) self awareness(and thereby personhood) it is still most likely instinctive(not conscious) behavior. I see no reason to disagree with the paper just with what you try to make out of it.

[ponyboy1488]

Thank you, Vladyka. I remember reading in "Wounded by Love" that the aforementioned nurturing of the child already in the womb is essential to motherhood.

If I may ask a question. how come, it may be, that the Orthodox presence in places like the March for Life is so small, compared to Roman Catholic presence which is overwhelming?

[allsaintsmonastery]

@ponyboy1488 For one thing, we know very well that the law is not going to be changed. Even a number of Republicans are against changing the law, while some democrats are for changing the law. We rely on education, because marches do not educate anyone. Very few people pay any attention to the marches.

[ponyboy1488]

I was at the March for Life rally in Washington DC last week; there were almost 1/2 million people, peacefully yet firmly standing for the belief that life begins at conception. It's an interesting concept of predestination, one that I see is conversed rigorously here. Regardless, it's a relief to know thousands of people wish to see children have a destiny from their mother's womb to begin with.

Abortion is a silent genocide and I hope, God Helping us, we can do something to change it.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@ponyboy1488 We have a prayer that is said over a mother and child at the beginning of her pregnancy. There is also an exortation to the mother, remindiing her that the child begins to learn already in the womb, and that her activitiies do affect the develoopment of the child.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@ponyboy1488 Even paying her hand on here stomach during prayer, we believe, can influence the development of the child. It is very important for us to remember that a child is born with many aspects of personhood already formed in the womb and hardwired in the brain. It is, therefore, a true person, with a true personhood, in the womb, and not a "thing" that can be disposed of.

[laiosto]

@ponyboy1488 In your view every time I jerk off i'M A GREATER MASS MURDERER than Stalin.Seriously ,do you really believe that every fuck should result in a new person?How will we feed these billions of extra people?Where will they live?Do you want to condemn millions to abuse by their brain dead parents?I bet you see nothing wrong with killing those who disagree with your views.I'm all for reducing the world's population via education,not by religious extremism.

[ponyboy1488]

@laiosto I'm sorry son, have you read my mind? No, so calm down, clean your room like your father told you and relax. Hold a on a second before you implode. I in many ways agree with you. I have struggled with the same thoughts are you mentioned. In light of that, I would have to condemn myself since it's not like I never jerked off either.

Sex is not just for procreating. And not every "fuck" turns into a person---hopefully, your mother and father didn't think of your conception as that.

[laiosto]

@ponyboy1488 Don't call me son you patronising bible fuck.I bet you are an expert in onanism,probably wanked until your johnson was red raw.Your sister had to lock her door to keep you out.Because you lack self control you need to turn to a superstitious god to help you control your urges.Fact of the matter is we can't feed the people that exist now,let alone every aborted foetus.Better to strive for a good life for fewer people,than a shitty existence for a multitude.

[ponyboy1488]

@laiosto I am an expert on making mistakes, like the one I made answering your comment. I don't have a sister, unfortunately. I am not an expert on Bible thumping either and it's because I do have self control that I turn to a God I know doesn't condemn me for my own faults, neither you. You do a good job condemning yourself and the people you don't understand.

You're right we can't feed people. I see how much good food the local restaurant throws out each day.

Relax, son. Take a laxative.

[laiosto]

@ponyboy1488 Well,son, if you have travelled further than your local zip code,or read a newspaper you may have realised that there is a place outside your insular little life called the "Rest of The World".There are many millions of people starving,having no clean drinking water and they live in ignorance.They keep having children they can't maintain,who in turn breed further compounding their misery.Get your restaurant to somehow send their surplus food to them.

[ponyboy1488]

@laiosto Well my daughter, I've been to many different countries, including places in Eastern Europe and Southwest Asia; I've served in peace keeping missions and in combat and have seen and witnessed things you only read about. I have seen starvation, destruction, disease and despair on a mass level.

Where have you been, little girl? Ever have your dick in the dirt? I don't think so. Before you go and make judgments, realize I respect your opinions. It's your right. And I wish you well.

[laiosto]

@ponyboy1488 Thank you for kind words my sister.I hope that you find wisdom,having such a wide experience of the world.

[ponyboy1488]

@laiosto You got dat wight, wabbit. You're dismissed.

[ponyboy1488]

@laiosto The fact that you cannot control yourself, neutralizes your comments and renders you a person that cannot control his language, nor his behavior. Come back when you can act like a decent human being. You're dismissed.

[Larryinct]

After reading the comments and responses around things predestined; I began to think of the activity of Grace in each persons life and the belief that I have that God allows us only those struggles we can overcome(which is long held prior to my becoming Orthodox). I am wondering if that means that God gives us gifts and Grace in proportion to things predestined (that are struggles; in example, being born with ADHD) as an aid to overcoming them?

[Larryinct]

After further reflection; I am seeing a patch of philosophical ideologies at the heart of my question. I think the only good part of it was the underlining thought that salvation is possible for all and desired for all by God.

[mikopanic]

I think some things are predestined, but there are things left to free will also. It is good to accept the mystery of life because trying to understand or know it fully can be a road to self worship and delusion

[ioannismiami]

@mikopanic I am interested in where you draw the line. In other words, what particular "things are predestined?" Why are "these things predestined" in your opinion? Finally, if the healing [salvation] of a human being were predestined, then that would mean that the Holy Trinity mysteriously loved some people and hated others. Not only is there no evidence for any view of predestination in the Christian tradition as handed down from the Apostles, but the doctrine also makes no sense.

[mikopanic]

@ioannismiami I don't draw any lines about it, this is just what I've noticed. I don't mean some people are destined to hell while others are favored, I just think in each individual life some tings are slightly predestined, and others are left totally up to our free will

[allsaintsmonastery]

@mikopanic There is a kind of predestination that is denied by ideologies, but cannot ultimately be denied in reality. I could never agree that God robs us of our freedom by predestining. Doubtless some are "called form their mother's womb" to a special service (which they could reject). But there are things hard wired in the human brain before birth that do predestin them. Borderline Personality Disorder would be one, some positive abilitites another.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@mikopanic Transgender and actual homosexuality are most certainly hardwired before birth, and unchageable, though misqued (i.e., someone who is sexually abused and thus thinks that they are Gay when they are not) can certainly be changed by various kinds of therapy. Some personality types are predestined by hardwiring or genetics before birth. However, we cannot suggest that God literally predestens any one, depriving them of spiritual freedom.

[ioannismiami]

@allsaintsmonastery & @mikopanic--> Vladyka's remark about ideological denial of what is phenomenal in precognitive patterns of human behavior and behavioral potential is very important. It is a critical and tacit predictor of deceit, in general, and every perversion of soul connected with dishonesty. Therefore, it is not suprising that the Church as social institution--not as the living witness of the Risen Christ where genuine healing occurs, continues to be racked by scandal in every age.

[mikopanic]

@ioannismiami People easily get too caught up in their ego and social lives, and lose sight of God.

[orthodox7x7]

@mikopanic The definition of FREE will is that one has the ability to break out of a endlessly recursive loop of reality, meaning they always have a choice regardless of the conditions. The orthodox view is (from what I understand) is cooperation. E.g. (Annunciation) God choose the Virgin Mary to be the Theotokos, however, she still had to align her will with God's Will when she said, "Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to your word."

[mikopanic]

@orthodox7x7 I see, so if there is a predestined plan, God would not impose it upon us, but ask for our co-operation thereby not imposing on our own free will. But if we are not willing to co operate, then God can not will it?

[orthodox7x7]

@mikopanic You thinking about it in the wrong matter. God is not bound my need, but he he "bound" by love. He CAN will it, but he wont. Its wouldn't be a true loving relationship with God if it was forced. If God choose to take total control over us, we would just be robots which can not enter into a consensual relationship. This is true love.

[ioannismiami]

Yesterday I reflected again on the message of this video while reading St. Basil the Great's "Homily on why God is not the cause of evils." Quoting: "To the extent that man stood apart from life, in like amount he also drew closer to death. For life is God, and the deprivation of life is death.

...God did not create death...neither did he prevent the dissolution...so that the illness would not be preserved immortal in us."

I give thanks for the many implications to salvation herein.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@ioannismiami Thaks Ianni. The Augustinian/Calvinist heresy arises from the notion that God created death specifically as a punishment for mankind. They begin with the Gnostic notion that man's soul is immortal by nature, rather than by Grace.

[ioannismiami]

@allsaintsmonastery I was reticent to a couple of years ago to resolve lingering doubts that I had about the mortality of the soul and grace provided by God to preserve the soul with life after temporary departure from the body. My confusion was part indoctrination and a non-discriminating response on my part from childhood along with my assent to a rationale about what I thought an essential quality of the soul to be. I am sorry for having led others to believe the same over many years.

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

thats correct. And this is why I'm beginning to completely reject a monotheistic worldview

[allsaintsmonastery]

@plk11 No reason to take polytheistic view. Too much like polyethylene or polyesther.

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

its quite easy to ridicule those you disagree with

[allsaintsmonastery]

@plk11 I don't even know if you disagree with me PLK, but you are a bit like a cat playing with a mouse. Why not just say what is on your mind from the beginning instead of playing games about it? I don't even know if one can speak about a "monotheistic world view." Islam and Orthodoxy, for example, have very different worldviews, but both are monotheistic. Sincere atheist do not have a really negative worldview either.

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

I probably haven't done a good job articulating what I mean. If we assume that God has foreknowledge of everything that will happen in the future, that god is the creator of everything, and that god has power over everything, then we must conclude that god intended for everything to be exactly as it is. Everything that happens is a result of a chain of cause and effect. If God is the first cause, as monotheists believe, and God knew every effect that would happen at the

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

cont. moment He created everything, then the Calvinist is perfectly justified when he says that God predestined everything. In other words, in the case of an omnipotent and omniscient creator, "predestined" and "created" mean the same thing. God knew everything that would happen throughout human history at the very moment He created mankind. He could have given every human being a genetic inclination toward compassion, and if HIs intention was for mankind to achieve theosis,

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

cont. He would have done so. In the case of an omnipotent creator ho knows the future, "predestined" and "caused" mean the same thing. Thus it is ridiculous to say something happened contrary to God's intention.

[blackbette07]

It may not be necessary to change the laws. If technology keeps advancing maybe abortion will be repugnant a few people will still have one but, most women will avoid having one.

As for sin I think children learn wickedness, my mother use to tell that when she little in the 1940s she played with white kids as equals there was no race differential but, something happened a decade later.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@blackbette07 This is what one would hope for. That we can reveal enough about life in the foetal stage that abortion will become repugnant. About the other: yes, I really do believe that children have to be taught to hate and have prejudice.

[mikopanic]

I think some people misinterpret what being in sin is. If someone is to believe that they are depraved from birth, it almost justifies them continuing in depraved behavior, as if there is no possible alternative.  I have also heard people justify somewhat depraved behavior by saying God forgives. Many Christians use the scriptures to justify themselves and whatever behaviors they have

[allsaintsmonastery]

@mikopanic Also, the idea that one is "predestined" to either salvation or damnation can lead one to just give up and yield to every passion. If you are already "predestined," then why bother to even try to do better?

[allsaintsmonastery]

@mikopanic There is also the Augustinian doctrine of Predestination, which opens the door for people to say, "I am predestined by God to be evil."

[cuttlefisch]

It is so sad that so many Christians try to reduce the whole of a person's Christian life with all it's depth and complexity to just a simple answer to a simple black-and-white question like this. I believe that not everything is that simple.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@cuttlefisch CF:Indeed it is not so simple. The complexities of human life, of "being" and of existence are far too complex for dogmatism or absolutes. One thing that I try (and sometime fail) to do, is to weigh the external evidence from solid science. The injustice of persecuting people on the basis of dogma or ideology is something that I do abhor. In the vide here, I was more interested in arguing that mankind is not born totally depraved. About the abortion part, it was notable to me that

[allsaintsmonastery]

@cuttlefisch that some form of empathy and "socialisation" already existed in the womb. Depravity would not credit that. I am absolultely convinced that mankind is essentially good, and that evil is a virus, not a natural quality. Often, it is a social virus which is spread by means of ideology and dogma.

[sonnygll]

@allsaintsmonastery

I like your view on evil that you express here. My view is actually very much like yours. It's from a secular perspective, but it works the same way yours does. I think we have these moral feelings, which are subjective, but we have agreement on them because of their social survival value. I think mental illness and a posteriori conditioning, such as the dogma you mention are the source of what people call evil. It's definitely very virus-like.

[ioannismiami]

Defining a later-term "therapeutic" abortion is difficult. My preference is to mark the cut-off for the definition at an early gestational age of 12 weeks. Others prefer a majority opinion of either >21 weeks or else >26-27 weeks. My rationale for preferring an earlier gestational-age to define late-term abortion pertains to existing knowledge about development of fetal structures and images from observations of the fetus.

[ioannismiami]

Would you provide the citation for the article you mention? I am curious to read the words selected by the author(s) to describe observable spontaneous movements by twins in utero. Spontaneous movements appear at 14 weeks gestation when the fetus/baby is 4-5 in. [12.7 cm] length, weighing one ounce [ca. 28 grams]. Whether these spontaneous movements are purposeful, as you indicate and I concur, remains a matter of ongoing debate.

[ioannismiami]

Already at 14 weeks, too, the sense of hearing is almost fully developed, so that by the 16th week the baby hears the mother's voice and heartbeat.

[sqnyster84]

Hi,

Do you maybe have a reference or a link to the study you mentioned? Maybe put it in a description box?

Thank you for making this videos :).

[neildingman]

@sqnyster84 I believe the study can be googled under the heading: Wired to Be Social: The Ontogeny of Human Interaction

[allsaintsmonastery]

@sqnyster84 Good idea. I should have thought of that already, but didn't

[sonnygll]

One thing to keep in mind is elective late term abortions are VERY rare. It's usually done for medical reasons in a case where the mother WANTED that baby.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@sonnygll I'm sure that is generally true.

[deriamis]

You might want to be careful with the "personhood" comment because, as tempting as it might be to see intent, it's still yet to be determined that it isn't an instinctive reaction. However, I'm not a great fan of late-term abortions anyway. Still, to me, there are certain circumstances where a late-term abortion is warranted when the life of the mother is threatened and it's far from certain the fetus will survive, or when the fetus is "alive" but has a condition such as hydrocephaly.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@deriamis Yes, I agree in general about the reasons for late term abortion being regulated in most jurisdictions where it is permitted. But I still must contend that a foetis is a "person."

[deriamis]

@allsaintsmonastery Oh, I wasn't saying that you can't contend such a thing at all. In fact, I was saying the opposite: it *is* very tempting. Where you and I differ is simply in the strength of the statement we're willing to make given the evidence; I don't have a problem at all with your viewpoint at all because I know that it comes from a position of love and respect for all life, which I wholeheartedly respect. I only think that the word "person" is unnecessary in the context, that's all.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@deriamis I also realise that one might justly say that my response come from a Christian ideology. And since it does, then it is not a conclusion that everyone would necessarily arrive at from the evidence given.

[deriamis]

@allsaintsmonastery The reason I take such a cautious stance is likely because of my previous training as an emergency medical technician, where I had to be a medical detective and not allow myself to follow red herrings down an incorrect treatment path. It's not that I would disagree with saying a fetus is a person (though it is definitely human) but that I simply remain unconvinced. I have other reasons for thinking a fetus should live that don't require it to be considered a person.

[allsaintsmonastery]

@deriamis Well, that is why I freely admit that my view is also shaped by a certain ideological concept.

[plk11]

Why didn't god make theosis a genetic trait inherent in all human beings at birth?

[allsaintsmonastery]

@plk11 You would have to ask Him about that, wouldn't you?

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

I suppose. If I was going to create a species with the intention that it achieve perfect unselfish love, I would give it an unbreakable genetic inclination toward unselfish love. Surely this would be within God's power?

[allsaintsmonastery]

@plk11 There are a lot of modifications I would make if I were doing the creating. Some of them have to do with reduntant body parts like the appendix. I mean, why can't it just go away now that it is not used for anything. Or the opening that allows for a linguinal hernia, for example. How about not creating tectonic plates so that there would not be any earthquakes?

[plk11]

@allsaintsmonastery

I suppose. If I were going to create a species with the intention that it achieve perfect unselfish love, I would make sure that it had an unbreakable genetic inclination toward unselfish love. Surely this would be within God's scope of power?