King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes Ascot '84

[quae5tor]

A brilliant ride by the "Long Fellow". He knew he had to expose any flaws in the 3yo's and did it from the front. And what about Sadlers Wells in 2nd? Went on to become the greatest sire horseracing has seen since World War II.

[brutrules]

probably my 2nd favourite king George ever,brings back memories if a warm summer in '84,priceless!!!

[malcs0]

In response to Pattire's comments, I've just noticed a bad stumble at 2.55; Lester just gathers him. I believe Teenoso was being trained for the '83 Leger, then a decision on the Arc would have followed. I also believe Geoff Wragg was forced to run him here against better judgement. I reckon Wragg would have waited for some wet weather then given him a different prep for the 84 Arc, but I think he was forced into it.

[littlebay75]

that was very impressive and beautifully judged by lester against an incredible line up of class horses teenoso very under rated

[mjraffe]

A superb ride by lester and put to bed the horse needing soft ground to be seen at his best.Sun princess was top class as was time charter and with darshaan and sadlers wells there with the enigmatic tolomeo(the youmzain of his day)in the field it was a cracking race and teenoso proved he was a great horse.Lester knew how good he was and rode a superbly confident race.Great times.

[thehorseshead]

I cant even begin to describe my love for Teenoso , an utterly brilliant horse on this day and a most under-rated performer if compared to the like's of Sea The Stars and his like that are being touted as getting a Timeform rating of 140 !

[ComteLafon]

well, hardly under-rated. It's just that he only acted over 12 furlongs and put up just one brilliant performance (and a couple of other good ones). It was tragic he couldn't run in the Arc.

[thehorseshead]

He was a brilliant horse ,but essentially a stayer, and in hindsight getting turned over by the likes of Shareef Dancer and Seymour Hicks abeit not being right ,didnt do him any justice.

.Yeah it was a pity Geoff Wragg couldnt get him to Longchamp as i'm pretty sure he would have done the same to Sagace and Northern Trick as he did to Sadlers Wells ,Time Charter and Darshaan etc!!

and that is not a bold statement .

[ComteLafon]

no, I agree with you. I can't tell you thrilled (and astonished!) I was when he won this - no-one thought he'd handle blisteringly fast round. I actually backed Sagace in the Arc (on the day) but I've no doubt Teenoso would have won if he'd run a proper race (and in those days, got a decent draw!) I thought Timeform's 135 was just about right: and it's an excellent rating. Just goes to show that great horses will be better at 4 than 3, though I understand why most don't get there.

[thehorseshead]

Great days :-) , i dont bet but wanted Rainbow Quest to win (Sagace's Arc) as at the time i was a lad at Jeremy Tree's but have always loved good horses whoever trained them.Yeah 135 in hindsight is a cracking rating , it just seems nowadays they hand out 138 , 140 to anything ,dont know how they ever justified giving Dubai Millenium such a high rating , copared to what Teenoso beat in his King George made DM's races seem like handicaps.

[tigerboy1966]

Teenoso was considered a soft ground horse because that was all he had to race on in 1983. He turned out to be even better on rock hard ground in 1984. He was just a pure class stayer of the kind we don't seem to see anymore.

On another point, the BBC really knew how to film a horse race in those days- no "dramatic" close-ups or confusing shot transitions. Just point the camera at the track and film the race!

[ComteLafon]

tigerboy - the Irish Derby of 83 jarred him up, it was run on brutally fast ground. He ran at York later that year but hadn't recovered. But quite often as horses get older they learn how to deal with it.

this was truly one of the great King Georges, formwise and as a spectacle. the pace is cut-throat (Teenoso has to wait for the pacemaker to catch up!) and the amazing thing is that by the finishing post he's going away from his field.

[moveitbetts]

Teenoso had also won the Ormonde Stakes, the 1m 5½f Group 3 race run at Chester, and then the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud in France (then over 1m 4½f). It wouldn't happen nowadays...

[Kelt1c71]

Teenoso was ostensibly a soft ground horse. Piggott rode Ascot like no one else in those days. It was one helluva field though.

[december2364]

It's definitely on a par with the Nijinsky field and maybe even as good as the Reference Point field.

[sheedysvsign]

Better !,

I make Teenoso only a few pound behind Dancing Brave ,but far superior to Mtoto,ref point,Nashwan,Old Vic ,Slip Anchor etc ,and i make him that that far infront of the "85 winner Petoski you'd need the Hubble Telescope

to see him .... Great Great horse ,trained by a great man and ridden by a living legend

what more could you ask for.

[frankschlanker]

But not as good as Petoski's field sheedy?

[terbine13]

and we were robbed of what would have been the greatest King George ever due the absence of Secreto,El Gran Senor and Rainbow Quest!

[sheedysvsign]

what a race that would have been hey,i thought El Gran Senor was a superstar at one stage ,he should have campaigned exclusivly at at mile to 10 furlongs, i still think on this day no-one would have beaten Teenoso,certainly not secreto anyway.

[terbine13]

no argument from me sheedysvsign...

[sheedysvsign]

sorry terbs wasnt trying to provoke an argument or anything ,the king george field would have been the race ofthe century with secreto,rainbow quest and el gran senor added to an already brilliant line up,but i still think it would have had the same winner :-) el gran senor 2nd,sadlers well 3rd

rainbow quest 4th.

[terbine13]

I'd go along with that!

[frankschlanker]

did secreto run again after the derby?

[ComteLafon]

nope. His owners basically bottled out of it. It was in the day when horses became too valuable to race - quite ridiculous. Shareef Dancer was another one: won the 83 Irish Derby beating Teenoso, so they decided that would be the way he should be remembered. Except no-one remembers Shareef Dancer, and we all remember the magnificent Teenoso.

[Pactrolus]

Cracking ride by the Maestro and a wonderful commentry by The Voice. But the real star was Teenoso. Before the race it was said he could only go on the soft. In the end he won with a little up his sleeve. Derby winner at 3 Champion at 4 in those days such a feat was a rarity as most Deby winners retired 10 minutes after the race.

[terbine13]

I like it Pactrolus!

[december2364]

He did have something left didn't he. At one point they all seemed to be queuing up to challenge, but at the end they never really struck a blow. I've found myself having to re-rate Teenoso in my mind. I always considered him to be a decent Derby winner but on the basis of this race and the quality of the opposition he faced I think I'd have to say that he was in fact a horse of the very highest calibre.

[terbine13]

..and you aint whistling Dixie december!!

[sheedysvsign]

i also like you feller,since he finished his career i would only put dancing brave (abeit well clear) and marginally nashwan as superior to teenoso at 12 furlongs.

[21shergar]

And Lammtarra, sheedy?

[sheedysvsign]

its all a matter of opinions shergs,my opinion is lammtarra is only on a par with slip anchor,but behind mtoto and reference point.who really knows how good lammtarra was?

[21shergar]

I take that point sheedy. Lammtarra was still a novice when his career ended. Don't know about you, but as a piece of entertainment I think his Derby is just fantastic.

[sheedysvsign]

your right again shergs ,wasnt the derby only his 2nd race? ,still for such an inexperianced horse to do what he did is exceptional.

[marcusallcock]

what is steve cauthen doing on sun princess??? not many lead from start to finish in the king george!!against a quality field at that!top horse

[terbine13]

don't start me off on Mr Cauthen marcus! I think he ruined many a good horse's chances with this front running style

[sheedysvsign]

you know you stuff terbine,i made a typo and ment to say couldnt act on fast?firm ground.yes think he must have been lame ,pity he never had the chance to avenge his defeat against sharref dancer as a 4yr old.

[terbine13]

Don't know about that sheedy! I certainly have learned a lot from chatting to you and the others (even Shaffi!)by the way what happened to Shareef Dancer because he didn't grace the racecourses much at all did he?

[sheedysvsign]

was retired to dalham hall stud for a reported 40 mill (world record stallion shares),i looked after a horse at paul coles in 1989 called chatteris a sharref dancer ,half brother to trojan fen !!!,unfortunalty chatteris was useless haha and a nasty b*stard to boot.

[terbine13]

ta once again!

[sheedysvsign]

didnt people say teenoso could act on fast ground due to his derby win in heavy ground,he also got hammered by shareef dancer in the irish derby on heavy going but he showed his true class as a 4 y-o ,one of my favourite colts after dancing brave.

[terbine13]

don't forget though that Teenoso injured himself in the Irish Derby..and yes sheedy, he was a cracker - no doubts!!

[pattire]

Yes terbine13, Teenoso's Derby was run on heavy ground.

Also, back to this King George Victory; I spoke to former jockey Richard Fox a few days ago over a beer (he was on Miramar Reef) he reckons this was the fastest race (inc sprints) that he ever roder in!

[terbine13]

nice one pattire, it all helps to put things into perspective! the more I watch this clip the more impressed I am with Teenoso's performance...anyone got the 1983 Epsom Derby video/clip?

[7blackbird]

I've posted Teenoso winning the Derby...

[terbine13]

excellent! thanks blackbird...

[terbine13]

thanks pattire and krisstruss, that King George was an even greater feat than I thought!!...and wasn't the going at Epsom in Teenoso's 1983 Derby win officially 'heavy'?

[krisstruss]

It most certainly was firm going.

[pattire]

terbine13, the going was infact firm. A total contrast to his Derby win in soft ground.

Also, during this race Teenoso aggraveted an old leg injury suffered in the previous years Irish Derby and if you look at the vid at around the 3.30 point, Piggott attempts to trot him back but the colt stumbles due to the injury. He Never Ran Again !

[Pactrolus]

Thanks for pointing out the stumble. Didn't know that and never would have. Cheers!

[vidsee]

That must have been one of the best fields ever for the King George

[terbine13]

gotta be thereabouts vidsee,Time Charter and Sun Princess make it a good one never mind Sadler's Wells!! interesting to read pattire's comments re Joe Mercer saying it was the best field for a race he rode in...can't ignore that!

[percommode]

A great performance by Lester, who gave the horse a breather then let him use his stamina to defeat a top class field.

The clip doesn't show the pre-loading and the amazing look on Lester's face when he was hiding behind the horse, sussing out the opposition down at the start.

I sorely miss that guy.

[terbine13]

surely the greatest flat race jockey?

[percommode]

Truly unique, that's for sure.

He rode so many wonderful races; the day he was on Teenoso at Epsom and the way the crowd were right behind him as he went round Tattenham Corner - Lester on the favourite in the Derby, the last one he won - was just priceless.

He was just exceptional on a horse.

[curleybap]

was the going softish that day?

[terbine13]

I think it was Curley, as it was when he won the Derby in '83..he liked the softer going and took some beating on it. I don't think some of the other horses in this race were as effective on soft ground but still a great performance

[pattire]

A truely awesome display by Teenoso in what top jockey Joe Mercer described as the best field ever assembled for a horse race in which he rode in.

Lester Piggott was the best jockey ever.

[Itselixir]

Give the strength of the field possibly one of the best performances of all time. Lester at his best

[martinh103]

p o'sullivan loves to say the word  unleashing

[sachahuista]

Don't forget Jupiter Island, Japan Cup winner is also behind!