Pt 2 - Sex-Provider, not Sex-Worker : Swedish Model vs. New Zealand Decriminalization

[mickGPN]

@TheTitsillator - Arguing with the paid-sex-positives was actually quite useful. Mainly because it gave me ideas for my next video :-)

[Professoranton]

A compelling analogy. I've written a book _Sex, Ethics, and Communication_ that tries to deal with the broad territory of sexual ethics. So much of the meaning of sex is in its interpretation - and that's where the communication part comes in-including the communicating we do with each other here on line.

[mickGPN]

(1) I agree - it's all about interpretation. Eg, biting someone, which is normally very aggressive, could be a very affectionate thing to do in a sexual relationship. So, ultimately, outsiders can't know how two people are interpreting what is happening between them. But that only applies when it IS only happening between them My point on paid-sex is that the money means there is an outside influence too, so that's why it becomes appropriate for society to "have an attitude" about such an event

[mickGPN]

(2) For more detail, see my video - Money & Consenting Adults / Does your book deal with the sex-industry, or just consensual sex? Ultimately, I think the only thing unacceptable in sex is degradation... but then I'm also willing to accept that some people don't find being urinated on, for example, to be degrading So, ultimately, I am very much behind the idea that consenting adults in private can do anything they like - if there's no $ involved. Is that more or less your angle on sexual ethics?

[SayNOtoProstitution]

GREAT video & question! NO, prostitution/abuse should NOT be defined as "work"! Your analogies of "punch bag work" and African-American slavery are brilliant. No rational personal could disagree with the excellent arguments you make in this video. This whole 5 pt series is a MUST-WATCH for everyone, especially anyone interested in prostitution issues. Thanks for continuing to share your wisdom & insights. Your educational videos are much needed and are a very important contribution to the cause!

[mickGPN]

@SayNOtoProstitution - Thanks for that. And look out for parts 6, 7, 8, etc... :-)

[YeOldeHeretic]

@mickGPN {3} (i forgot to mark 2 as 2)

I have personally been involved in helping those in prostitution leave. I have also helped current sex workers and those who wish to be sex workers, work safely, as well as navigate through the myriad of laws which seek to place us further in harm. (but you didn't ask me that, now did you ;) ~aymi

[YeOldeHeretic]

{2} lastly, sex workers have been fighting for their rights for a very very long time, and all over the world i might add. Speaking as though we are some kind of minority, essentially seeks to make our claims invalid and not worthy to listen to. The fact of the matter is, I've never once tried to silence, or discredit those who have suffered harms. I just see a rights based approach the best method to start changing things. ~aymi

[mickGPN]

@YeOldeHeretic - Well, I DO appreciate your willingness to discuss this subject in a reasonable way, and that's what I want to do. But I don't want to start by accepting loaded terms like "sex-worker". So, anyway, on the subject of rights for women in the sex-industry, what do you think about the right to earn a living without being abused, i.e. to leave prostitution? I'd be interested to hear about the projects you've been involved with which try to help in that way.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@mickGPN {1}You are free to call myself and my colleagues anything you like, & i have a right to reject your term, and also your assumption that all prostitution in and of its self is abuse. There is nothing inherently dangerous about the act of exchanging sex for money. Not everyone who sells sex is a victim and not everyone who buys sex is an abuser. This is the picture you are trying to paint. {CONT}

[mickGPN]

@YeOldeHeretic - I don't see how you can claim that a man who invades the most intimate aspects of a woman's body and psyche, so he can use her as an object, is not being abusive. And, given our essential disagreement on that point, I'm starting to wonder if it's even possible for us to have a meaningful discussion about the subject.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@mickGPN For those who want to leave, there should be real help. Currently, in places that have criminalization (or a version like Sweden), sex workers are all painted with the same brush, viewed as victims, or ill in some way, and needing mental help. Either we are all viewed as victims or vile. {CONT}

[YeOldeHeretic]

{1} first of all, i'm not a "paid-sex positive", i have actually never described myself as sex positive. I am, however, a sex worker (15years) and a sex worker activist (for almost 9).

secondly, i'm just curious how you think a video such as this will open up any kind of debate or discussion with sex workers such as myself? Do you not see how a video like this would be alienating to those you say you wish to speak to? {CONT}

[boobootoob]

I like this video however....lol... well first, when you make these can you please jack up a the sound a bit before you post. Second, I love the second half of this, but there is a problem with some of it here. Parts seem insensitive to the danger they are in. It's something I've been thinking about with your videos, and because I agree with you I should make some videos to you in response. As you know I'm not feeling well at all lately. I've had to deal with personal business and relax a bit.

[boobootoob]

But I would very much like to bat around a couple of ideas with you. One. This is the demographic most likely to be murdered among women. When they are murdered (or raped) it is by psychopaths that are repulsed by their status and stations in life. While nobody in their right mind condones this, some can act completely oblivious to it and demonstrate insensitivity. No you don't see the connection between using rhetoric that likens them to trash and enabling murder, you're not enabling BUT

[boobootoob]

to someone that belongs to this group and likely suffers from panic and PTSD related to stigma, one example, someone here on you tube even said she's lost friends on the streets. Insensitive talk is hurtful even if you don't feel it, or don't feel that you contribute to what a psychopath does. I have to keep explaining because other people are not to be blamed for what psychotic killers do, HOWEVER. Even a simple goods analogy might help. Even if one is selling goods illegally, then anyone ...

[boobootoob]

(cont) can come along and take from them, and there is no protection. In that way, the fact that society does not protect them IS part of the problem and explanation as to why they are prey. I do feel as a woman, that this is a crisis in misogyny from all angles. I feel that everywhere, the worker end of this should be decriminalized and police training needs to happen now. I am not interested in bending the truth or glamorizing what they do, but the message that these are EVERY woman needs to

[boobootoob]

go out to society. I say this because it's a crisis of murder. These are not throw away people, these are women that manifest the issues that all women have in our society. I would not act like this was so important if it was not a crisis. Are these dead bodies nothing? We need to respond accordingly the way we respond to the dead bodies of gays and hate crimes against homosexuals. So, your cold discussion is something I understand, but it does NOT fit the current crisis of misogyny that we face

[mickGPN]

@boobootoob - Thanks for this. And I share your concerns. It's a difficult situation, because it's a subject which involves people who have been traumatised and are vulnerable - so we have to be very sensitive. On the other hand, if we allow people to get away with terms which distort the issue, that will also allow damage to be done, in the long term. (...cont)

[mickGPN]

@mickGPN - (cont...) Anyway, I am very open to getting constructive criticism from people (even from the more reasonable Paid-Sex Positives, such as YeOleHeretic) because the idea behind this project is for us to have a rigorous debate about the sex-industry. Hopefully this will enable us to decide which perspectives are most likely to help reduce the harm that commodity-sex is causing to, as you say, real women. (PS - I did boost the volume... but I'll double boost it next time :-)