Jewish people think they r inferior over every human being but know 1 thing death is common amongst all of us so wat would be ur answer to all the unjust u do infront of god on the day of judgement that day every1 has to compensate for their sins money or credit card ain't gona be our currency but our good & bad deeds will repent to Allah coz he the most merciful the most forgiving & stop this criminal behaviour Torah bible Quran teaches us to be kind & respectful towards every1
America is an amazing country, not founded as a Christian country, and founded on principles of separation of church and state. Israel was founded as a Jewish state, and by secular jews, and unlike Christian or Muslim, Jewish state doesn't necessarily mean religious, since Jews are a people, just as Arabs are a people. And one could say just as "Palestinians" are a people(though their identity is more modern and partly western created).
You utterly stupid girl. I'm so sorry that you're like a self hating jew. Do you not realise that if the jewish people have no right to Judea and Samaria, won in the 1967 war, then they have no right to the territories won in the 1948 war either. You stupid girl.. If you feel no connection as a Jew, to Judea, then why are you in Israel at all? Leave, you're a thief. REAL Jews, should stay.
@boliussa Your idea of a self hating Jew is my idea of a non hating Jew. Maybe some people find their status as a human being more important than their status as a Jew. In other words they reject the us and them mentality that you and hamas both feel is so very important.
Yesterday I just walked a Muslim back home after he had an accident, I suppose that's unfathomable for you. What did I write that makes you think i'm not a humanitarian? I use the self hating jew label for those that treat Jews and Israel unfairly, with a double/triple standard. Same as anybody else. They condemn Jews and Israel to a different standard that they use for others. It's a fundamentally racist thing to do actually and i'm very opposed to it.
@boliussa Why would that be unfathomable to me? I was refering to the idea that one must claim Judea and Sumeria to be a self respecting Jew. Even though the settlements are at the root of the current violence. If one would rather see more bloodshed than give up some territory than yeah i would accuse them of us and them greed over humanitarianism. To answer your question no I am neither Israeli or Jewish. I am American though and have been accused of being a self hating American.
@boliussa part 2. because I felt that bombing Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan into the stone age was an immoral act. It's kind of the same principal in my view. A friend of mine is a Rabbi who I'm pretty sure doesn't hate the Jewish people. She had a pretty nice quote; "After the Holocaust, some of us said never again while other said never again to us." That is the fundamental mistake that any ethnic group is capable of making. It's really pretty simple.
Pretty sick what that "Rabbi" said, I hope you can judge it not based on his title, but on the truth of his words or lack thereof. Tell me your personal opinion, do you really think that Jews are the Nazis and Arabs are like the Jews. The Jews of Germany wanted only to be the best Germans they could be. The Arabs don't want to be Jews. Jews never wanted to annihilate Germany. The Arabs want to annihilate Israel.
Are you aware of what was terrible about the Holocaust? 60-75% of Jews of Europe were murdered. Now compare that to what is happening to the Arabs. They are growing in number. So it's not like the IDF is thinking let's do it to them. To make any analogy, that Jews think "never again to us",is totally obscene.It is a selfish ignorant sick view not of "them" and "us", with a divide between those jews that think they're pious who say "we're not like THOSE jews".
and they turn on THOSE jews and slander them and demonise them in the most sick obscene unfair ways.And they don't care about truth, they say "As a Jew...." as if that gives them some kind of authority to throw off any criticism of them.It's simply wrong to apply a double standard when issuing condemnations.infact it's a crime against humanity to demonise a people like that.And they are demonising Jews with libels. They just set themselves aside and say we're not like those ones
@boliussa No its exactly the opposite of a double standard actually. I am not in any way comparing the most hanous crime of the millenium to what Israel is doing today. There are much more acurrate analogies like the British imperialist tactics of the 19thcentury in places like India and Ireland or South African apartheid or the tactics used in the later part of the 19th century in my country against the Native population. A double standard would be not ignoring Israeli imperialism.
@madmiguelh2o oops i meant ignoring it. What my friend is saying is very clear, putting your divide spin on it is silly. She is stating that any humanitarian who she as a religious person feels obligated to be, would take the lessons of the Holocaust and apply them to every nation and everybody. When we see injustice, we should recognize it. When we see it committed in our name we are obligated to speak out. Guess what it's in my name too, I'm American, we fund it.
Look.. If you look at what your Rabbi friend said, it definitely is comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. And that's not an unusual comparison these days. I'm not putting a spin on what your "Rabbi" friend said. We can decide to fight any bad thing without equating or comparing the bad thing with the holocaust, as if there's an equation or comparison to be made. That's the comparison your "Rabbi" friend used. Now i'm happy to address the comparison you made.. but recognise that.
@boliussa Yeah that's the definition of spin actually. Just because one takes a historical lesson from something doesn't mean that everything they apply that lesson to is compared by default. I'm pretty sure that's some sort of logical fallacy. Why are you putting the word "Rabbi" in quotations? The other point she makes is that the motives of Netanyahu and the right wing in Israel should be questioned seriously by anyone concerned solely with the future of Israel. Makes sense to me.
Look man "After the Holocaust, some of us said never again while other said never again to us."" That means your "Rabbi" friend is thinking that Jews unlike her pious self, would have no qualms of doing a Holocaust on them, and are just as bad.. It's sick. Of course she is comparing the morality of Jews unlike her, to those of the Nazis.. and many Israel bashers compare Israel's actions to those of the Nazis. Purely to upset and demonize Jews, or the THEM, THOSE Jews.
Why I put "Rabbi" in quotations is a whole different subject. By the way, suppose you believe somebody stole a chocolate bar, would you say YOU HAVEN'T LEARNT FROM THE HOLOCAUST THINK ABOUT IT, THINK ABOUT HITLER WHAT HE DID. NOW DON'T DO IT AGAIN.. There's no equivalence morally, other than both are bad, so do you think that's a fair thing to say? (and I don't believe Zionism is bad).
And how is she questioning Netanyahu's motives? Is she doing it by suggesting he's such a demon.. that he thinks a Holocaust is bad on Jews but not on Arabs.. Do you think she's suggesting that by saying ""After the Holocaust, some of us said never again while other said never again to us." I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what she said.. Do you agree?
Is the Holocaust the most heinous crime? What about what the Arabs did to the Africans in Darfur? that maybe isn't as bad, I don't know. The genocide of Armenians by Turkey.. I don't have to say the Holocaust is the worst, though it may well be. But we agree the Holocaust comparison is not a good one. So i'll move to your one.
Here are some major differences.. The Jews(Am Yisrael - the people of Israel) are not like the British in the Congo. The Jews(Am Yisrael) are exiles/refugees from Israel(Eretz Yisrael - the land of Israel) itself. The Jews are one people whose origins are in that land, and who as Jews, have always identified with that land. The Jews have and want no other homeland other than their one land. It is not an imperialistic empire like the British. OK?
@boliussa Ok before we go there I want to clarify i am ok with the 1967 borders and letting Israel remain Israel. That being said, the whole refugee its OUR land is hard to swallow. It's also their land. They never left that has been proven through DNA. They are the offspring of Jews, Canaanites, Bysantines, Romans, Arabs, Mesopatamians and everybody else who was there at one time or another. People living in Europe for over a thousand years can't just say we're home get out.
I'm not talking about the so-called 1967 borders, which are actually the 1949 Armistice lines.. And i'm not denying they have a connection to thath land. You are wrong to say that Jews are Europeans.. Are you aware that most Jews in Israel are Jews from Arab lands? I suppose you think that makes them more authentic do you? Only Europeans are less Jewish? Well, recent genetic studies show the jew haters were wrong about Jews, Jews are one people genetically.
@boliussa Yeah I saw that study, you are right the Ashkenazi populations had more in common with Mizrahim than they did with other Europeans. It also showed the Palestinians to be as Jewish if not more geneticaly as the other groups. I think though that the idea that you can be a refugee for two thousand years then return with a right to the land is kind of nuts though. The Anglo saxons brutally drove the Celts out of Britain in 500ad, can I bulldoze an English house and move in?
I'm sure you have tons of sympathy with the Palestinian claim including over emphasising it and ignoring its weaknesses. No Arab lost his home until they attacked what was to be the Jewish state to be. Jews had been immigrating wince 1880, and never threw an Arab out for all those years, until the Arabs tried to annihilate them, so again you misrepresent the facts.
Anybody whose ancestors were members of Am Yisrael, but whose ancestors change religion out of convenience, dropped the language and religion of Am Yisrael, converted to Christianity when Christianity came, to Islam when Islam came, and wants to annihilate the Jews, destroy the Jewish state, and so on, that really puts their jewish identity out the window. They don't identify as Jews. And I brought up about the genetics to counter your misrepresentation of the Jewish people.
@boliussa Holy oversimplification batman! My interpretation was that the Ashkenazi Jewish population was a European population the same way Romani Gypsies or Tarters in Poland were. People move around. Ireland was populated by people from Spain. India by Arian tribes from Persia. That doesn't make Irish people Spanish or Indians Persians or Gypsys Indian. I really appreciate the strength of Jewish identity especially with the pressure from psycho Christians. But Zionism? come on.
Zionism is simply self determination for Jews. Were Romani Gypsies ever a sovereign nation in India? No. Have they dreamt of returning to their restored homeland for centuries or millenia, I doubt it. In the Ireland case, supposing it was populated by people from Spain(i'll take your word for it), Spain is still in the hands of the Spanish. Spaniards are still sovereign over Spain. So some made themselves ANOTHER homeland and dropped their Spanish identity. No comparison.
@boliussa Zionism is never defined as self determination for Jews. Spaniards are different than the people who I am talking about. That's my whole point, people change, cultures evolve adapt, sometimes convert, spread out and often disappear while morphing into other cultures. Regardless no one has a RIGHT to land based on ancient history in a functional world.
So seriously, if I start a Yishuv in England for Celtic druids and expand, why can't I take land? Dogda promised it to us.
How can Zionism -not- be self determination for Jews, how can it be anything else? . Modern Zionism came in an era of Nationalisms.. Jews wanting to be a free people in their land. Eretz Yisrael Le Am Yisrael. (The land of Israel for the people of Israel). The Language of Israel -Hebrew- renewed there. The San Remo conference recognised in law Jews historic bond to that land, that's legal. The Arabs were denying they were Palestinians, they didn't identify as such.
Listen man, I'm an Atheist, nothing to do with God ok? Celts were never a sovereign nation in England dreaming only of England. Celts probably don't even identify as Celts anymore., they're probably considered an extinct people Jews are not extinct . Judea and Samaria is NOT foreign to the Jewish people. It is the heart of the historic jewish homeland (and within the area agreed internationally legally as a Jewish state at San Remo, if one cares about international law)
@boliussa I'm an Atheist too but thats not the point. Assume there were religious Druids with strong Celtic identity, they started little peaceful enclaves all around England(their ancient ancestral homeland). At some point English people get angry and attack Celtic settlements. Do they then have the RIGHT to boot out the English from 80% of England and demolish all English towns?
England was never the sovereign nation of the Druids and if they're Celts it weakens it even more because Celts can't claim one homeland of England, furthermore, England has been the sovereign nation of the English, and also the Celts probably had a homeland before arriving in England.. Also there were no Arab "Palestinians" in Palestine, they didn't identify with a "Palestine", "Palestine" was a western imperialistic invention from their perspective.
@boliussa Many anthropologists have theorized that the tribes that started the Jewish identity actually came from Mesapotamia. Your whole bullshit line about the Arabs wanting to kill all the Jews is not sticking anymore throughout the sane world. There are always going to be a few nutjobs in every society. I have heard plenty of Israelis speak about removing every non-Jew from Israel but I don't view that as the General Israeli concensus because I am not mentally retarded.
I see you fool for the "just a few nutjobs" idea. Wishful thinking. We do have statistics of the arab world today and it's not encouraging. Even British Muslims, a poll in 2006 said 30% wish Britain becomes an Islammic state. In 2006 Palestinians in Gaza voted Hamas whose charter says the end of days will not come until a tribe of muslims kill a tribe of jews and the stones will cry out.. come and kill him.. The "1967" lines weren't good enough for the Arabs from 1920-1967.
@madmiguelh2o And furthermore, "historic palestine" was on both banks of the Jordan.. There was East Palestine and West Palestine. East Palestine is much bigger, and they got all of it. They got a state there, so discussion is regarding a 22nd Arab state and Second Arab Palestinian State
Also Arabs were attacking Jewish communities through the 20s and 30s and the Jews eventually responded but they only lost their homes in a war. And in this war of 1948, which -they- started to annihilate the Jews, a Jihad, and prevent Israel being created, The majority of them FLED, they ran away. And you can't expect the Jews to say "welcome back" knowing that these people had tried to annihilate them and still hold that dream! The war was each side trying to capture towns.
@boliussa They attacked settlements, which was not cool. That doesn't mean they attempted to annihilate the Jews. Its worded this way so no one will question it. Too late for that, the world isn't buying it anymore.
you like your rherotic don't you. Jewish communities. not settlements. And it was a full scale War.They'd been attacking jewish communities even before 48, eventually with reprisals, but during the 20s and 30s.before 48.In 1948 arab countries including Arabs in mandatory palestine, and the palestinian state of transjordan,declared war.Let's suppose they'd have let be, non zionists(they didn't in 1929).Do you really think that they'd have let Zionist Jews live?Or annihilate them?
@boliussa neither of us can be sure but I would guess that they would have driven them out, not killed them all. It's kind of unfair to judge people on war crimes that never happened. Just like saying "the Palestinians" or "the Iranians" want to kill all the Israelis. Many Palestinians want the same thing moderate Israelis want. But that doesn't fit with your narrative so you ignore them. There is a pretty inspiring piece you might wanna check out called Settlers for Peace.
the grand mufti of jerusalem haj amin al husseini led 2 of the most violent SS units, and met with Hitler.. that was the palestinian leader (installed by the british funnily enough), but popular I understand.. known as the arab fuhrer. He helped instigate a massacre of anti/non zionist religious jews in 1929 in hebron, a 2000 year old community.
@boliussa That definitely is not cool, you will hear no defense of that kind of shit from me. I will remind you that many massacres also took place at the hands of the Israeli army, you are not going to convince me that treating Palestinians like dogshit Today is justified because there were war crimes committed by Palestinians then.
What are you talking about ? 1929? It wasn't even in wartime,and my point is you think those that want to annihilate jews are just a few nutjobs..Just a few nutjobs elected Hamas in 2006 that have that line about the end of days not coming until a tribe of muslims kill a tribe of jews and the stones will cry out...come and kill him? I know you don't support it , well, actually I don't know,but we're talking about arabs wanting to annihilate or not and you say just a few nutjobs
@boliussa Hey if you want to get into crimes against the Jewish people look no further than the psychotic cult I was baptized into known as the Catholic church. Centuries of burning, torturing and otherwise making life a living hell for Jewish people. I don't see any retribution against the catholic church by Israel. Yet you want to somehow justify human rights violations with isolated violence by the population you find currently inconvenient. Give me a break.
Can you quote me. Where have I spoken about retribution for past crimes? (even retribution I wouldn't have used that word it sounds like pure revenge, for the sake of revenge, i'm not suggesting that on anybody), anyhow the Catholic church means no harm to Jews and is sorry. I am under no illusions about the persecution Christians have inflicted on the Jews over centuries or even millenia, Can you stop changing to new subjects.
@boliussa Fuck that you brought up a massacre in1929. Why is that so fucking valid in this argument but the Catholics who said they're sorry for actually trying to annihilate the Jews is not?
The context of me bringing up 1929 was asking you "what are you talking about? 1929?". That wasn't an attempt to annihilate the Jews - Jews wanting self determination at least, would be, as they tried in 1948 in a full declaration of war.Or in voting Hamas in 2006. Or Arafat talking about Hudabiya(a good codeword to go over your western head) watch?v=P8RRbPbIXe8 a temporary agreement Mohammed made before he annihilated a tribe.
Or Abbas talking in 2010 that if arabs support him he'll fight Israel.Or the way they name streets after Martyrs,or how suicide bombers funerals have been like weddings(when they could actually make it into israel and do them)BTW that arafat example was a recording from his speech in Johannesburg.2006 voting hamas was quite significant.Or their support for Abbas not recognising a jewish state but recognising a palestinian one.Or a PCPO poll in 2001 76.1% support suicide bombings
these help to show their intentions more recently. as do hamas's war attempts.. Bear in mind that a strong israel can cause them to go more peaceful, not because they are peaceful but because they're not hopeful of much success. They certainly aren't interested in another 1967, not because they love Israel more than they did.
You may well support Hamas since it's democratically elected, as many jew haters do.. and expect jews to accept it and its charter! after all, they were democratically elected weren't they ok jews, so lay down and die!!!
You also tried many examples all of which I replied to, to say Jews have not such a historical bond to that land.. that it's comparable to English druids, or the Celtic connection to England or the Spanish connection to Ireland, or goodness knows what, and I responded to them. The Arabs don't accept the 1949 armistice lines or even the 1947 UN resolution, and why should they if they don't accept jewish history. Like you actually. And in their false history, jews are thieves.
@boliussa When did I say Jews don't have a historical bond to the land? I was saying lots of people have ancient ties to land. That doesn't necissarily give them rights to colonize it now. But whatever I know they are going to stay and I think they should. But the other folks are still around and aint goin anywhere. And they are just as much people with just as much rights as you or I or anyone.
funny how every single comparison you made was an absurd one, like the bond the Spanish have to Ireland, or jews being a sovereign nation in the land, you compare to the right of English druids to rule England.. And you say Zionism is nothing to do with Jewish self determination, how can it not be? and what else can it be?
@boliussa tell me how exactly were Druid Celtic British people not connected to their land but Israelittes were? For that matter how were Romani Gypsy people not connected to Rajastan or Igbo and Ashanti people not connected to the areas of West Africa that they were taken from. What makes Jews different than any of these other ethnic groups? Or do all these people have the right to go and expel whoever lives there now off of the land to start a new nation?
I never ever said such people weren't connected to their land. You made some analogies not with Rajastan Igbo and Ashantis. But with others like Druids and Celtic and Romani and stuff, comparing their connection to their land with the jewish connection to the jewish land, and right to sovereignty and I pointed out faults earlier with the analogies you gave. As if England should be run by Druids as much as Israel by Jews.
@boliussa how is it any different? You say you are an Atheist. What makes the Jewish religion more valid than the Druid religion? What makes the Celtic Britain's tie to the land less real you ethnocentric fuck? I am making analogies to ANYONE removed from their homeland. And for your information the Celtic people of Britain were extremely tied to the land. You think you are superior don't you? You also called Jews THE NATIVES as if no one else lived there or had any culture. Your sick.
@madmiguelh2o As if England should be run by druids? exactly its run by the people who live there now. They are protastant Christians and they would be a little pissed off if people came marching in and told them they were not real fucking people and they were all a bunch of terrorists with no culture. Hell they could go to sweden right? its a mostly protastant culture. but no thats not the point. You have a supremisist view of your culture. Like racists everywhere.
and in addition to what i've just said, no I don't have a supremacist view of jewish culture, infact, I have little to no personal interest in jewish culture particularly, and no personal interest in doing or believing the jewish religion.
Furthermore, I think other religions are better in many ways.. like where their religion is less of a burden. So these views you put to me as if they should be my views, that you address to me in the form of questions, are totally wrong They do show some classic beliefs that tend to be held of people that hate jews, like that jews are racial supremacists or other such nonsense.
I dislike aspects of many cultures including "jewish culture", and one thing I dislike about it, is the horrible hatred and nasty things some secular jews including non orthodox, believe about religious jews, maybe your "rabbi" friend told you what you believe is true of "THOSE JEWS".. and that's a sad thing about "jewish culture". But other cultures are also narrow and silly in many ways.
And another thing about "jewish culture" is it gets horribly negatively influenced by jew haters whose beliefs get taken up by many jews too, as we saw with Henry Kissinger's horrific comment about Jews being gassed as not being an american concern and may be a humanitarian concern. And called Jews self serving bastards.I don't want Jews in power outside of Israel because of this problem in jewish culture of self hatred. And it comes partl from absorbing what jew haters tell them
Infact during the Holocaust, the Jewish organisations did very little to help their fellow Jews, wherea in the 60s civil rights movement they sat on the whitehouse lawn and said no no we won't go for black people, which was nice, but they didn't do it for Jews. They're the opposite of self serving and the facts bear this out.. I do not like jewish culture much at all.. And the idea that i'm a supremacist is just your horrible beliefs about jews that justifies jew hatred.
Even after telling you that i'm a humanitarian, and giving reasons, it didn't take long for you to start saying what you said at te start, what people that hate jews tend to believe, which is that jews or a lot of jews or some jews, are supremacists. The Jewish religion is obviously not more valid than the Druid one.. you're not quoting me at all, you're just attributing insane views to me now in the form of questions. And I never said a connection was "less real".
@boliussa uh nice try. I wasn't speaking out against Jewry. I was speaking out against YOU. You are the one who laughed at the idea of Druids or Gypsies or Africans having a tie to the land like Jews do to Israel. Now you are saying that YOU don't like Jewish culture. Good for you. I love and have nothing but respect for Jewish culture. What I don't have respect for is ethnocentrism which I think many Zionists today unfortunately are showing.
Deary me, you really have a problem with language.. and comprehension. I did not laugh at any people having a tie to their land. But you brought up analogies to say things like Jews have as much right to rule Israel as Druids do to rule England. And when I pointed out a problem with that analogy - Druids have never ruled England before, that's a hole in your analogy. It's not "laughing".
@boliussa So what religion dominated Britain(England is the AngloSaxon word for the place) during the time the Romans started setting up camp? What ethnic group were they again? Maybe I missed something.
Well, one could call them English or Anglo Saxon I suppose, but as far as I know, they weren't Druids.. But having never met a Druid, and having listened to English nationalists and not heard them hark on about the Druids, I guessed they didn't rule England. If they did then i'd have to give it some thought and maybe meet a few. You might know more than me about them. Is England the worldwide home of the Druids? I still see a big flaw with druids ruling..
most people in Britain are liberal christian or non believers,... Paganism is a small minority in a land not sparsely populated. And it's not ruled by some big imperialistic Empire. Pagans could perhaps also claim Saudi Arabia as much as England.. I don't think England is a homeland for Pagans for example(and pagans aren't a nation either). You bring up some interesting analogies i'll give you that.
I suppose the religion was Paganism.. but Paganism wasn't restricted to England. I thought Druids were like a Pagan priesthood.. maybe they ruled I don't know. But there were Pagans in Saudi Arabia too 1500 years ago. England is not the homeland of Pagans. I don't know what is, maybe they don't have one, just a religion but without a central place. Islam has a central place, Saudi Arabia.(funnily enough their holy site the Kabba was originally Pagan as you may know)
@boliussa ya know its ok to admit sometimes that you don't know what you are talking about. Pagan is a name medeival christians gave to anyone who wasn't Christian or Jewish. Druids were priests of their religion but the name also is applied to the religion of the Celtic people of the British Isles. You don't think any holy sites in Israel were originally pagan? Look the bottom line is NO ethnic group is perminant, they change and adapt and evolve.
thank you, and it's ok for you to admit that you don't even know of the 800,000 jewish refugees from arab lands , and the main topic is Israel and Arabs and Jews, and I seem to be a lot better informed than you. I know I don't know about Druids and Celts! but thanks for the info.
infact I don't think jewish sites - sites of Am Yisrael - were pagan, I think Am Yisrael built them. Like the graves of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.. The grave of Rachel. The remaining wall of the jewish temple which was built by the Jews. These were not pagan sites! Not like the Islammic Kabba in Mecca. Now, as to your bottom line....
Jews are a religio-nation, they do accept converts, so not strictly an ethnic group.. People can change and adapt and drop an identity completely. Or adopt a new identity. But when an identity has been held onto for thousands of years, and carries with it a unique and incredible history, that is both horribly sad at times, but also tremendous at other times, then there is an incredible amount of significance to it and people may choose not to drop it even after millenia.
I'm not sure what an Ethno-centric zionist is? Zionists can be Jewish or Gentile, and I don't know any Zionist that rejects converts! Meir Kahane who was quite extreme among Zionists relatively speaking,compared to other Zionists, and he said any Arab that becomes a Jew, is as Jewish as he is.
to be more clear, Jews don't in any generation attempt to be a pure ethnic group. But given genetic studies, it turns out Jews all over the world from the Middle East to Europe, have as we've discussed, more in common with each other than with their neighbours. Because not so many converts in the past 2000 years. Even 2000 years ago you might think people were very ethno-centric, but Jews still had converts. So were always a religio-nation. And from the start..
from the beginnings of Judaism,Jacob's sons, married women that would've converted joining Am Yisrael,so not even very ethno-centric then.And converts identify very strongly with Jewish history,and the jewish destiny,whatever that may be,and join in the story of jewish story,a story that continues on! A story that had a terrible downpoint for 2000 years of powerlessness and persecution and genocide but finally we have a state,and any gentile can convert or not,and share that joy.
And an interesting thing about Israel is you see Jews from all over the world, looking quite different from each other, but united as one people with a shared history, after 2000 years, it's an incredible beautiful thing. and very sad that there are those that wish to destroy it.
Jews are actually known as Am Yisrael(People Of Israel), and call their land Eretz Yisrael(The land of Israel). So the bond there is even in the name of the Jews. They only have one homeland. And their language is tied to that land. If you take pagans for example, they're not a nation and I doubt there's 1 pagan language and 1 pagan homeland.
A key thing here is this. Israel was not Established in 2012.. And Israel was not Established when the "Palestinians" ruled the land(which never happened). It's not like Druids coming to England and saying Move out or We should run the place. The British are already ruling. The Ottomans ruled Israel/mandatory palestine/south syria. After the Ottomans, it was agreed by the international community at san Remo that the Jews run it. Then the British ruled it.
The Arabs who had -nothing- were given a bunch of states,. This was just as a reward from Britain for helping to take down the Islammic Ottoman Empire.. And they got more states as time went on. They were also given East Palestine, which they called Transjordan.. later Jordan.. And now they wanted West too, they wanted the Jews to have nothing. The Jews accepted a division of the land even in 1948, the Arabs went to war.
There were no identifying Palestinians then. The Arabs particularly of that time, insisted there were no Palestinians. They were arab nationalists. The Jews weren't taking land ruled by Arabs. The land was ruled by the British and Ottomans before that.
@madmiguelh2o And I never said I dislike Jewish culture. I was very clear, I said I dislike aspects of many cultures, including aspects of "jewish culture" if you want to use such an expression. And I gave examples of self hating jews, and i'd include your "rabbi" friend there as suffering from it. But Jews aren't the only ones to suffer from self haters. One thing you are correct on is that I don't know much about tribes in Africa.
And being a native doesn't mean that others are not natives. And I even said, the land had arabs there, and was sparsely populated, and it was. I never suggested just going in and uprooting them. I never said they're not real people. And what I said about them not identifying as a Palestinian people, is something the now very pro Palestinian and always Anti-Israel ones would say themselves Obviously it doesn't mean they're not human or not real people.
and your current one with the Rajastan or Igbo and Ashanti people being you say taken from their land.. you're comparing that with Arabs/Palestinians, Palestine Arabs, South Syrian Arabs whatever they are, being "taken from" their land.. this is an analogy you give now which I could address.
@boliussa Well Igbo and ashanti were taken as slaves from west Africa. The Jews were driven out by Romans much more like the Gypsies in Rajastan. Are you saying African Americans(with Igbo blood) or Gypsies or Cherokee or anyone else driven by whatever does have or doesn't have the right to uproot the current population. Is it just Jews driving out Arabs that is morally ok with you or not.
The Jewish connection, or Bond even, to that land and legal right to sovereignty in that land, and historic bond involving sovereignty, All of that, alone, does not and did not and was not, what gave Jews the right to throw anybody out of the land. As to what would give Jews the right, Well, it's a slightly misleading question, since Jews -hardly did-No Arab lost his home until they declared War in 1948 and I think you'll find if you look at quotes from their leaders, their goal
Arabs fled in war, that's why they lost the land. In Benny Morris's book, palestinian refugee problem or palestinian refugee problem revisited, he lists about 320 cities.there were multiple causes to the flight, like a nearby city coming under jewish control scared the arabs that I think being violent themselves thought the jews would do to them what they'd do to the jews. They ran.
there were according to benny, some cases of expulsion, but a very small portion. There was also a portion that left because the arabs asked them to leave, the logic being, leave and we'll mow them down and then come back, leave so you don't get caught up in it. The "palestinians" left waiting for the jews to be kicked out, the other arabs fought for them, and the jews didn't invite them back.
Like depending onhow you calculate it, 4 cases of arabs asking populations to leave, and 13 of expulsion. these of 320ish towns.But most towns had multiple causes.. But I recall Ephraim Karsh points out that a big arab towns involved arabs asking population to leave, and if I recall, Mahmoud Abbas admitted this story as the reason he ended up leaving.Ultimately though i'd point out, it was a War.Arabs started. And the British had no connection to Africa.
The British Empire just ruled all over the place for greed, status, money. (The Arab Islammic empire would've been pretty bad too, not just the West).The british aren't natives to that land don't speak the language of that land, don't keep the religion of that land. Never ruled that land before, never dreamed of ruling it.Only wanted it for resources. And already had a homeland - England.So not only no right, but grossly immoral to remove africans.. if they did. Not sure who did
Also the Africans, if they are such a people, and they now identify as one perhaps, they do have many homelands, so for example, if South Africa had stayed white, they'd still have had lots of land, they wouldn't have no homeland at all.. and I don't think one part of Africa is enormously more important to the African people than another. But still no foreign people have a right to enslave them, uproot them just for money or something.
@boliussa I was talking about specific tribes. It happens to be the most geneticly diverse continent on the planet. Thats like saying The Jews are white so they could have just lived in the Ukraine.(I know they aren't all white btw) You obviously know nothing about Africa so your talking out of your ass to make a lame ass point.
and not just no right but it's very immoral.. but not analogous to the jews and the arabs.. as mentioned, the Jews are natives came in and arabs only lost their homes when arabs started a war and most lost the land by fleeing. And also I wouldn't shed a tear since it's being nice to each other contractual.. they persecuted and caused 800,000 Jews to flee from Arab lands and property was stolen. So even more than Palestinian Refugees.
800,000 Jews had to flee Arab lands, there were 2 main waves, once around the 1948 war, and again around the 1967 war. And between them too.. There are organisations like JJAC that seek justice for them.
I am well aware that they are human beings. Bear in mind though, some humans are worse than other ones. And that doesn't mean they should all be killed either.
By the way, from the point of view of suffering human beings, since you're such a humanitarian you should realise, that from that perspective, kicking out a jew that likes the beach, to some other beach, is far less horrible, than kicking out a jew that is in jerusalem or hebron and feels very much part of jewish history in the heart of the jewish homeland, it's a far deeper feeling that can't be had anywhere else and it's ripping his heart out to take him from there.
@boliussa Gee that sucks. It sucked when my grandma had to move out of her house to a rest home too but I wouldn't call it a humanitarian disaster. We got her a cat, she's ok. when a a school in Gaza got white phosfurus dropped on it, that was a humanitarian disaster. Where exactly do you live?
i'll address that but can you address other points, like one you've avoided twice so far, how on earth you think Zionism is not about jewish self determination, and never was? - how can it be anything else?
@boliussa Zionism can be defined in a number of ways. That may be how you define it. Congratulations. I've also heard "a land without a people for a people without a land" which kinda sucks for the people on that land. Anyway if you define it as Jewish self-determination than I have no problem with Zionism. Unfortunately that definition in no way justifies anything we are arguing about.
What you give "a land without a people for..." is not a definition of Zionism. It was a slogan used by Zionists in those days, and it's true in a sense(people yes, but not a people), but mostly unfortunately misleading since some might think no people.. Jabotinsky,a big Zionist,famously recognised the that there were people there, albeit sparsely populated,and Arabs, in those days the Arabs never identified as Palestinian. They identified with the general area like Greater Syria
What you call a definition, you won't find in any dictionary of encyclopedia, it was just a slogan as i've described. What I gave you is the definition, and any other definition if there even is any other one, would have to meet that criteria. You simply had your definition wrong.
@boliussa Bullshit! Even Hamas who I despise btw publicly stated they would recognize the pre1967 borders. If Israel withdrew settlements. You are full of shit son. The only thing they will not recognize is a Jewish state because that wouldn't be fair to Muslims living in Israel. It also wouldn't be fair to an Atheist living in Israel. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE ARAB PEOPLE! SO QUIT TELLING ME WHAT THEY WANT.
Well, we can examine what Hamas said, and we may find they don't recognise Israel within any borders. Israel IS a Jewish state already. Israel defines itself as such, maybe you don't understand what a Jewish state is. Netanyahu is asking that they recognise Israel for what it is. It's the root of the problem, he identified it. Netanyahu is Probably an Atheist by the way. I really doubt he believes in Judaism for example, if he did he'd have a beard and go to Synagogue often.
I also don't recall ever hearing Netanyahu mention God, even to Christians,other than the slogan God bless the united states of america which is a classic way to end a speech and just saying"bless the united states of america"would be terrible politics.A lot of senators,as dan Dennett has spoken about,believe in belief.But, just my opinion based on all I know about the man Netanyahu.He may not be an Atheist.But hes definitely not a religious jew.And often people like that dont believe
ok that was a bit of a deep thing for me to say , that if he believed in judaism he'd have a beard and go to synagogue often or that he's wear a head covering and so on.. Reform/Conservative judaism and so on, is way outside anything you know about. Surveys have shown 30% of their clergy don't believe in God, and i've no doubt they think you don't have to. They may even say Judaism is not a religion.
If you watch Sam Harris talking at one Reform/Conservative place, the host said something along the lines of "I don't think anybody here would disagree with anything you said" and one audience member even asked what to do about these "true believers". But that's a complex subject, especially for somebody with your lack of background.
Certainly Netanyahu is very secular..that's pretty well known, and obvious, and he has always seen Israel as a Jewish state and speaks very passionately about it being a Jewish state.. more than any other PM. And he's talking secular. Remember Israel has a Bahai Temple, the Bahai has their main temple In Haifa,Israel. Nowhere else in the Middle East. And it's a beautiful big temple they can be proud of, if you see a picture.
@boliussa Well I guess I don't understand what a Jewish state is then. If one was talking about an ethnicity than that is more disturbing than a religion. If the US claimed to be a European state because more people are from that continent that would be pretty fucked up for Blacks, Asians the Native population. Pakistan is a Muslim state and I think we both would agree it's totally fucked. Israel can be a democracy OR a Jewish state. Both is kind of an oxymoron.
Yes it is potentially problematic..but also remember even in a western edmocracy, democracy doesn't overrule say, the constitution.A Jewish state as a nation state requires a majority of Jews, that's it.Some nation states like Hungary I suppose, are still perhaps Hungarian.In this day and age, Western countries, England now no longer really considered a nation state.. and English nationalism is a very ugly thing, there's the BNP which has fascist roots, fascist neo-nazi members..
if 51% of people vote to kill the other 49% then other values, liberal values overrule it. So things can come before democracy. And being a nation state could be preserved just by limited immigration, but treating the other citizens very well giving them social rights, perhaps not certain rights that'd give them sovereingty.. but Muslims already have Muslim states and Arabs Arab states. Jews want one safe place to call home, and be captains of their own ship.
@boliussa I don't like muslim states or arab states or white states or black states ok? An Israeli state seems just fine. Most likely the guy in charge is a Jew and that's just dandy. Would you address my response to the whole gypsy celtic african thing a few paragraphs above please?
Jews are a Religio-nation, which isn't just a nation.. so not really racial by intention, just an effect of not so many conversions over the past 2000 years and a strict process, and it not being popular to be jewish. Religious Jews would the demands of Orthodox Judaism, accept anybody of any race, including any Arab, that converts sincerely and becomes jewish. They'd be as jewish as anybody.
A German, an African, et.c. would be as Jewish as anybody, as jewish as any chief rabbi, if they convert. So it's not just a nation, it's a religio-nation. Which might be a fairly unique thing, an ancient thing kept alive for thousands of years.
Israel IS currently both a democracy and a jewish state. and it's a pretty liberal democracy too. As I said, the Bahai couldn't live in any muslim state but can in the one and only jewish state.
@boliussa well great if thats what the people want fantastic but could you just be ok with a Palestinian state not recognizing it as such. Say they recognize a secular state and you recognize a Jewish one and everybody gets along? I for one as an Atheist would not be OK with the Christians designating my country as a Christian state. Even if I was Christian Id be against it. And trust me there are plenty of freaks that want it to be one here.
Well, they have a Palestinian state, Jordan, which was almost called the Hashemite Kingdom Of Palestine. "Historic Palestine" if one wants to use such a term seeing Palestine as a historical thing, then it covered both banks of the Jordan river. Jordan is about 70% of it. So the question is should they have a 22nd arab state and second Palestinian state, in the Heart of the historic jewish homeland.
Here's where you might not like me.. I personally think that if the Arabs declare war on Israel, then I might be OK with Israel committing some war crimes minimally, to drive them out.. And i'm fine with the idea that if anybody(not an ethnic thing, Jew or Arab) that doesn't accept Israel as it was founded, as the one and only jewish state, then chuck them out too. It's a horribly extreme measure, but a one-off.
Christians aren't a nation, they're just a religion. In a sense, England for example is partly Christian, like some shops closing on Sundays Israel infact has things closed on Saturdays. It's a little something to remind one it's a Jewish state, beyond it being a jewish majority. Nice to have some things so it's not just a Hebrew speaking portugal.. but i'd rather it was something less extreme than Shabbat! Like maybe just very religious areas could have that restriction.
or the historically jewish areas that are especially important particularly to some religious jews who cling to them so much, like Jerusalem, Hebron, that while they mean a lot to -some- secular jews or atheist jews, they'd mean a lot more to a national-religious jew who has the whole religious dimension of meaning causing him to feel even more connected to that land, so i'd be happy for "no driving on saturday" there.
as far as a palestinian state, jordan, they could even be religious muslim, in theory islam can be lovely, look at Sheikh Palazzi, and they can say No Jews in Jordan, fine by me, as long as we have Israel. There are verses in the quran that are very pro israel, but in practice today, if Jordan was a religious muslim state one could predict that it'd be bad for its jewish neighbour. And I reckon the muslims that are violent may have their interpretation more correct, maybe.
It's just a terrible nasty eternal travesty of Justice, that the heart of the jewish homeland should be forever in arab hands, it's horrendous. Many Jews would understandably be willing to die themselves to prevent such a terrible thing, if it could be prevented.
and i'd be willing to give up other parts of the jewish homeland, to rescue the heart of it. But it's such a small amount of land as it is. The Negev(southern Israel) isn't so incredibly meaningful to jews.(and some palestinians want to move there since that was where their ancestors were from -losing their home in 1948, and not from the disputed territory), i'd rather give that.And throw any Jews living there out. Than have the indignity of losing the heart of historic Israel.
In 1964,(while Jordan also had the judea and samaria), the PLO declared their aspirations, palestinian aspirations, as ruling Palestine both sides of the Jordan, but interestingly, Excluding the west bank/judea and samaria. That area is no more special to them than any other part, infact perhaps less since they excluded it from what they wanted!
Then in 1968 after Jordan lost it, the PLO rewrote their charter to wanting that area..the "west bank". Technically Jordan is the East Bank. (jordan still ended up expelling the PLO for trying to take over his country) and Jordan is majority palestinian.. so as some say, a democratic jordan is palestine. it's just ruled by Hashemites, and increasingly less so. It's Palestine in all but name, and was almost in name too "hashemite kingdom of palestine"
Also America wasn't founded as a nation state.. and they've had so much immigration, and people from all races are loyal to it (and i'm not suggesting chucking out an "unloyal race" even from Israel!) for America to suddenly say they're a nation state, they never were, there was no American hundreds of years ago. (native americans would've called it something else and it was populated by a very different people than now). Israel was even when founded, a Jewish state
and the right of return is proof that they don't accept the 1949 armistice lines as a border, it's a farce, because it means an arab majority in israel and thus the end of the jewish state. and the beginning of another arab state in the middle east.
@boliussa thats slipperyslope bullshit. Why don't you shut the fuck up with your insane conclusions based on your opinion about what you think Palestinians want, and listen to the proposals they are making.
A right of return as it stands, would mean all Palestinians have a right to return to the town their ancestors lived, or just to within the 49 armistice lines if their ancestor lived there, that logically means what I said, it's a guarantee. Not a slippery slope. A slippery slope is X could lead to Y which could lead to Z.. There are millions of palestinian refugees and they want to end the zionist entity. We know as a fact they are anti zionist, don't you know?
If the Arabs that try to kill all the jews, run away, and hope to annihilate them still, then yes I think you start a war and lose, you lose, and not only that, jews can't invite them back to have another go at annihilating the jews.. you can't expect jews to be suicidal.
Religion is important in the arab/islammic world, and Benny Morris has pointed out how a Fatwa from the * ulema * at Cairo's Al-Azhar University called for jihad. That's very authoritative and binding on the Sunni Islammic world. Religion was and is important in the Islammic world. There are also many quotes from the Arab leaders in 1948 and 1967 showing bloody motives. And if you look at Arab Media today you see the hatred and viciousness watch?v=h8OiN0ddH2A .
Judea and Samaria is not the Sinai. Judea and Samaria is the most important part of the land of Israel to any real identifying Jew. To Jews that care just about pleasure and not really about being jewish and jewish history, then they prefer the beaches near the coast, they could live anywhere. But for a Jew thinking as a Jew, Judea and Samaria are the heart of the homeland. More important than anywhere else
Then you could say it of Jews from Arab lands too.. Continuing with your comparisons, Regarding Persians, I'm sure a lot of Iranians feel Persian, combine the two identities, and for sure the Persians haven't been through the powerlessness and persecution that are -part- of what makes a Jewish homeland such an important thing in the hearts of many Jews.
@boliussa I would most definitely say Mizrahi Jews are very much an Arab Population. In Iran the Jews are very proud to be Persians as well as Jews and are not willing to go to Israel because they don't want to loose their unique culture. I understand the connection to the land that's a beautiful thing. What I don't get is the RIGHT to control the land and more specifcly the exclusive right to the land. And now the RIGHT to take more. That's downright insane.
I can assure you that -most- Mizrahi Jews do not identify as Arab, but as Jews from Arabic speaking countries. Infact many "Arabs" only started identifying as Arabs after Arab nationalism which is later than Zionism. By the way, Iranians are often proud of saying they're not Arabs! Perhaps because they've managed to preserve Persian..
By the way, the holocaust comparison is quite serious too, i'd appreciate it if we can continue on that too. Like what that comparison has to do with questioning Netanyahu's motives..see my comments.
if being a refugee for 2000 years is nuts, you should object to the concept of a Palestinian refugee purely based on an ancestor that fled, their status is for eternity, and after 100 years, 1000 years, 2000 years, they'll still insist on it if they're still about, and that's enshrined in UN law! That they are refugees "in perpetuity"..
@boliussa right but unfortunately for you some of those refugees are still alive and tell a different story. I haven't heard of any survivors of the Jewish diaspora. If you meet any let me know, I'm sure they are pretty interesting people.
I don;t know what you mean by survivors of the jewish diaspora, if you're playing a game talking about survivors from the exile by the romans.. as you know they wouldn't be alive today. But the point is that descendents of Palestinian refugees are still seen as refugees You're welcome to reject that UN definition, do you? So fine. I'd say then Jews aren't refugees, but living in Exile. Diaspora is a softer word, for Exile.
Funnily enough, the definition of Palestinian as originally set down, was anybody that has been there for 2 years.really a lot have moved all over Syria. and is no palestinian identity but that's another matter.
could you also tell me if you are jewish? because really if you were jewish you should be more educated.. Sometimes israelis can be more ignorant on the racism jews suffer because they don't live among gentiles and dthey don't see it. Are you Israeli? Are you Jewish?
אנחנו פשיסטים, תעזבי ת ' דתיים - זאת אמונתם, אבל גם החילונים וגם השמאל רוצים "מדינה יהודית ", יש לנו בעיה.... והתנחלויות זה לא בעיה, מותר לאנשים לגור איפה הם רוצים, הבעיה היא שזה חד צדדי. וגם הערבים הם לא מלאכים עם האסלאם שלהם - לא יותר טוב מהיהדות. אותו פשיזם
גם לי צרם שהתחלת להתעסק בפוליטיקה. ציפינו לסרטון שבו את לוקחת פרשיות מהתנך ועושה מהם מטעמים בדרכך הייחודית.
כן אפשר להיות ציוני אתאיסט ואני ההוכחה לכך
אפשר, רצוי, וחובה לבקר את הדת שלנו שמסרבת להתקדם לעת החדשה
אבל עם ישראל היה פה לפני 3000 שנה ואי אפשר להגיד שכל הארץ היא כבושה במיוחד שלא היה עם כזה פליסטינים. והוא הומצא על ידי ערפאת כחלק מהתוכנית לקחת עוד שטחים אפשריים מהיהודים ותו לו.
מעניין למה מכל האירועים בחרת לציין את האירוע הזה. לא חסרים ארועים קשים יותר. בעיקר כאלה שהערבים עושים. מעניין למה שמאלנים בוחרים להתעלם מכל מה שהערבים עושים ולזעוק לכל העולם על כל ילד פלסטיני שנשברה לו הציפורן. עלובים, נמאסתם.
Jewish people think they r inferior over every human being but know 1 thing death is common amongst all of us so wat would be ur answer to all the unjust u do infront of god on the day of judgement that day every1 has to compensate for their sins money or credit card ain't gona be our currency but our good & bad deeds will repent to Allah coz he the most merciful the most forgiving & stop this criminal behaviour Torah bible Quran teaches us to be kind & respectful towards every1
noonebutallah 1 week ago
הערבי הוא אנס מורשע
אשתו היהודיה האנוסה בוגדנית
כולכם זבלים שקרנים ומה שמחבר בינכם שכולכם בוגדניים
היא בוגדת בעמה, הוא משת"פ זבל שהתעודה הכחולה שלו תעיד על כך
ואת, שמאלנית הזויה, גם כן עשויה משקרים ובגידות
תסתכלו במראה ותראו שכולכם עשויים מקקה!
ahhavatisrael 1 month ago
America is an amazing country, not founded as a Christian country, and founded on principles of separation of church and state. Israel was founded as a Jewish state, and by secular jews, and unlike Christian or Muslim, Jewish state doesn't necessarily mean religious, since Jews are a people, just as Arabs are a people. And one could say just as "Palestinians" are a people(though their identity is more modern and partly western created).
boliussa 1 month ago
You utterly stupid girl. I'm so sorry that you're like a self hating jew. Do you not realise that if the jewish people have no right to Judea and Samaria, won in the 1967 war, then they have no right to the territories won in the 1948 war either. You stupid girl.. If you feel no connection as a Jew, to Judea, then why are you in Israel at all? Leave, you're a thief. REAL Jews, should stay.
boliussa 2 months ago
@boliussa Your idea of a self hating Jew is my idea of a non hating Jew. Maybe some people find their status as a human being more important than their status as a Jew. In other words they reject the us and them mentality that you and hamas both feel is so very important.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Yesterday I just walked a Muslim back home after he had an accident, I suppose that's unfathomable for you. What did I write that makes you think i'm not a humanitarian? I use the self hating jew label for those that treat Jews and Israel unfairly, with a double/triple standard. Same as anybody else. They condemn Jews and Israel to a different standard that they use for others. It's a fundamentally racist thing to do actually and i'm very opposed to it.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Why would that be unfathomable to me? I was refering to the idea that one must claim Judea and Sumeria to be a self respecting Jew. Even though the settlements are at the root of the current violence. If one would rather see more bloodshed than give up some territory than yeah i would accuse them of us and them greed over humanitarianism. To answer your question no I am neither Israeli or Jewish. I am American though and have been accused of being a self hating American.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@boliussa part 2. because I felt that bombing Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan into the stone age was an immoral act. It's kind of the same principal in my view. A friend of mine is a Rabbi who I'm pretty sure doesn't hate the Jewish people. She had a pretty nice quote; "After the Holocaust, some of us said never again while other said never again to us." That is the fundamental mistake that any ethnic group is capable of making. It's really pretty simple.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Pretty sick what that "Rabbi" said, I hope you can judge it not based on his title, but on the truth of his words or lack thereof. Tell me your personal opinion, do you really think that Jews are the Nazis and Arabs are like the Jews. The Jews of Germany wanted only to be the best Germans they could be. The Arabs don't want to be Jews. Jews never wanted to annihilate Germany. The Arabs want to annihilate Israel.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Are you aware of what was terrible about the Holocaust? 60-75% of Jews of Europe were murdered. Now compare that to what is happening to the Arabs. They are growing in number. So it's not like the IDF is thinking let's do it to them. To make any analogy, that Jews think "never again to us",is totally obscene.It is a selfish ignorant sick view not of "them" and "us", with a divide between those jews that think they're pious who say "we're not like THOSE jews".
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and they turn on THOSE jews and slander them and demonise them in the most sick obscene unfair ways.And they don't care about truth, they say "As a Jew...." as if that gives them some kind of authority to throw off any criticism of them.It's simply wrong to apply a double standard when issuing condemnations.infact it's a crime against humanity to demonise a people like that.And they are demonising Jews with libels. They just set themselves aside and say we're not like those ones
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa No its exactly the opposite of a double standard actually. I am not in any way comparing the most hanous crime of the millenium to what Israel is doing today. There are much more acurrate analogies like the British imperialist tactics of the 19thcentury in places like India and Ireland or South African apartheid or the tactics used in the later part of the 19th century in my country against the Native population. A double standard would be not ignoring Israeli imperialism.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o oops i meant ignoring it. What my friend is saying is very clear, putting your divide spin on it is silly. She is stating that any humanitarian who she as a religious person feels obligated to be, would take the lessons of the Holocaust and apply them to every nation and everybody. When we see injustice, we should recognize it. When we see it committed in our name we are obligated to speak out. Guess what it's in my name too, I'm American, we fund it.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Look.. If you look at what your Rabbi friend said, it definitely is comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. And that's not an unusual comparison these days. I'm not putting a spin on what your "Rabbi" friend said. We can decide to fight any bad thing without equating or comparing the bad thing with the holocaust, as if there's an equation or comparison to be made. That's the comparison your "Rabbi" friend used. Now i'm happy to address the comparison you made.. but recognise that.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Yeah that's the definition of spin actually. Just because one takes a historical lesson from something doesn't mean that everything they apply that lesson to is compared by default. I'm pretty sure that's some sort of logical fallacy. Why are you putting the word "Rabbi" in quotations? The other point she makes is that the motives of Netanyahu and the right wing in Israel should be questioned seriously by anyone concerned solely with the future of Israel. Makes sense to me.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Look man "After the Holocaust, some of us said never again while other said never again to us."" That means your "Rabbi" friend is thinking that Jews unlike her pious self, would have no qualms of doing a Holocaust on them, and are just as bad.. It's sick. Of course she is comparing the morality of Jews unlike her, to those of the Nazis.. and many Israel bashers compare Israel's actions to those of the Nazis. Purely to upset and demonize Jews, or the THEM, THOSE Jews.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Why I put "Rabbi" in quotations is a whole different subject. By the way, suppose you believe somebody stole a chocolate bar, would you say YOU HAVEN'T LEARNT FROM THE HOLOCAUST THINK ABOUT IT, THINK ABOUT HITLER WHAT HE DID. NOW DON'T DO IT AGAIN.. There's no equivalence morally, other than both are bad, so do you think that's a fair thing to say? (and I don't believe Zionism is bad).
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
And how is she questioning Netanyahu's motives? Is she doing it by suggesting he's such a demon.. that he thinks a Holocaust is bad on Jews but not on Arabs.. Do you think she's suggesting that by saying ""After the Holocaust, some of us said never again while other said never again to us." I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what she said.. Do you agree?
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Is the Holocaust the most heinous crime? What about what the Arabs did to the Africans in Darfur? that maybe isn't as bad, I don't know. The genocide of Armenians by Turkey.. I don't have to say the Holocaust is the worst, though it may well be. But we agree the Holocaust comparison is not a good one. So i'll move to your one.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Here are some major differences.. The Jews(Am Yisrael - the people of Israel) are not like the British in the Congo. The Jews(Am Yisrael) are exiles/refugees from Israel(Eretz Yisrael - the land of Israel) itself. The Jews are one people whose origins are in that land, and who as Jews, have always identified with that land. The Jews have and want no other homeland other than their one land. It is not an imperialistic empire like the British. OK?
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Ok before we go there I want to clarify i am ok with the 1967 borders and letting Israel remain Israel. That being said, the whole refugee its OUR land is hard to swallow. It's also their land. They never left that has been proven through DNA. They are the offspring of Jews, Canaanites, Bysantines, Romans, Arabs, Mesopatamians and everybody else who was there at one time or another. People living in Europe for over a thousand years can't just say we're home get out.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I'm not talking about the so-called 1967 borders, which are actually the 1949 Armistice lines.. And i'm not denying they have a connection to thath land. You are wrong to say that Jews are Europeans.. Are you aware that most Jews in Israel are Jews from Arab lands? I suppose you think that makes them more authentic do you? Only Europeans are less Jewish? Well, recent genetic studies show the jew haters were wrong about Jews, Jews are one people genetically.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Yeah I saw that study, you are right the Ashkenazi populations had more in common with Mizrahim than they did with other Europeans. It also showed the Palestinians to be as Jewish if not more geneticaly as the other groups. I think though that the idea that you can be a refugee for two thousand years then return with a right to the land is kind of nuts though. The Anglo saxons brutally drove the Celts out of Britain in 500ad, can I bulldoze an English house and move in?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I'm sure you have tons of sympathy with the Palestinian claim including over emphasising it and ignoring its weaknesses. No Arab lost his home until they attacked what was to be the Jewish state to be. Jews had been immigrating wince 1880, and never threw an Arab out for all those years, until the Arabs tried to annihilate them, so again you misrepresent the facts.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Anybody whose ancestors were members of Am Yisrael, but whose ancestors change religion out of convenience, dropped the language and religion of Am Yisrael, converted to Christianity when Christianity came, to Islam when Islam came, and wants to annihilate the Jews, destroy the Jewish state, and so on, that really puts their jewish identity out the window. They don't identify as Jews. And I brought up about the genetics to counter your misrepresentation of the Jewish people.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Holy oversimplification batman! My interpretation was that the Ashkenazi Jewish population was a European population the same way Romani Gypsies or Tarters in Poland were. People move around. Ireland was populated by people from Spain. India by Arian tribes from Persia. That doesn't make Irish people Spanish or Indians Persians or Gypsys Indian. I really appreciate the strength of Jewish identity especially with the pressure from psycho Christians. But Zionism? come on.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Zionism is simply self determination for Jews. Were Romani Gypsies ever a sovereign nation in India? No. Have they dreamt of returning to their restored homeland for centuries or millenia, I doubt it. In the Ireland case, supposing it was populated by people from Spain(i'll take your word for it), Spain is still in the hands of the Spanish. Spaniards are still sovereign over Spain. So some made themselves ANOTHER homeland and dropped their Spanish identity. No comparison.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Zionism is never defined as self determination for Jews. Spaniards are different than the people who I am talking about. That's my whole point, people change, cultures evolve adapt, sometimes convert, spread out and often disappear while morphing into other cultures. Regardless no one has a RIGHT to land based on ancient history in a functional world.
So seriously, if I start a Yishuv in England for Celtic druids and expand, why can't I take land? Dogda promised it to us.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
How can Zionism -not- be self determination for Jews, how can it be anything else? . Modern Zionism came in an era of Nationalisms.. Jews wanting to be a free people in their land. Eretz Yisrael Le Am Yisrael. (The land of Israel for the people of Israel). The Language of Israel -Hebrew- renewed there. The San Remo conference recognised in law Jews historic bond to that land, that's legal. The Arabs were denying they were Palestinians, they didn't identify as such.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Listen man, I'm an Atheist, nothing to do with God ok? Celts were never a sovereign nation in England dreaming only of England. Celts probably don't even identify as Celts anymore., they're probably considered an extinct people Jews are not extinct . Judea and Samaria is NOT foreign to the Jewish people. It is the heart of the historic jewish homeland (and within the area agreed internationally legally as a Jewish state at San Remo, if one cares about international law)
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa I'm an Atheist too but thats not the point. Assume there were religious Druids with strong Celtic identity, they started little peaceful enclaves all around England(their ancient ancestral homeland). At some point English people get angry and attack Celtic settlements. Do they then have the RIGHT to boot out the English from 80% of England and demolish all English towns?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
England was never the sovereign nation of the Druids and if they're Celts it weakens it even more because Celts can't claim one homeland of England, furthermore, England has been the sovereign nation of the English, and also the Celts probably had a homeland before arriving in England.. Also there were no Arab "Palestinians" in Palestine, they didn't identify with a "Palestine", "Palestine" was a western imperialistic invention from their perspective.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Many anthropologists have theorized that the tribes that started the Jewish identity actually came from Mesapotamia. Your whole bullshit line about the Arabs wanting to kill all the Jews is not sticking anymore throughout the sane world. There are always going to be a few nutjobs in every society. I have heard plenty of Israelis speak about removing every non-Jew from Israel but I don't view that as the General Israeli concensus because I am not mentally retarded.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I see you fool for the "just a few nutjobs" idea. Wishful thinking. We do have statistics of the arab world today and it's not encouraging. Even British Muslims, a poll in 2006 said 30% wish Britain becomes an Islammic state. In 2006 Palestinians in Gaza voted Hamas whose charter says the end of days will not come until a tribe of muslims kill a tribe of jews and the stones will cry out.. come and kill him.. The "1967" lines weren't good enough for the Arabs from 1920-1967.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
And all human beings are from Africa.. Except that we've dropped the African identity.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o And furthermore, "historic palestine" was on both banks of the Jordan.. There was East Palestine and West Palestine. East Palestine is much bigger, and they got all of it. They got a state there, so discussion is regarding a 22nd Arab state and Second Arab Palestinian State
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Also Arabs were attacking Jewish communities through the 20s and 30s and the Jews eventually responded but they only lost their homes in a war. And in this war of 1948, which -they- started to annihilate the Jews, a Jihad, and prevent Israel being created, The majority of them FLED, they ran away. And you can't expect the Jews to say "welcome back" knowing that these people had tried to annihilate them and still hold that dream! The war was each side trying to capture towns.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa They attacked settlements, which was not cool. That doesn't mean they attempted to annihilate the Jews. Its worded this way so no one will question it. Too late for that, the world isn't buying it anymore.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
you like your rherotic don't you. Jewish communities. not settlements. And it was a full scale War.They'd been attacking jewish communities even before 48, eventually with reprisals, but during the 20s and 30s.before 48.In 1948 arab countries including Arabs in mandatory palestine, and the palestinian state of transjordan,declared war.Let's suppose they'd have let be, non zionists(they didn't in 1929).Do you really think that they'd have let Zionist Jews live?Or annihilate them?
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa neither of us can be sure but I would guess that they would have driven them out, not killed them all. It's kind of unfair to judge people on war crimes that never happened. Just like saying "the Palestinians" or "the Iranians" want to kill all the Israelis. Many Palestinians want the same thing moderate Israelis want. But that doesn't fit with your narrative so you ignore them. There is a pretty inspiring piece you might wanna check out called Settlers for Peace.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
the grand mufti of jerusalem haj amin al husseini led 2 of the most violent SS units, and met with Hitler.. that was the palestinian leader (installed by the british funnily enough), but popular I understand.. known as the arab fuhrer. He helped instigate a massacre of anti/non zionist religious jews in 1929 in hebron, a 2000 year old community.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa That definitely is not cool, you will hear no defense of that kind of shit from me. I will remind you that many massacres also took place at the hands of the Israeli army, you are not going to convince me that treating Palestinians like dogshit Today is justified because there were war crimes committed by Palestinians then.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
What are you talking about ? 1929? It wasn't even in wartime,and my point is you think those that want to annihilate jews are just a few nutjobs..Just a few nutjobs elected Hamas in 2006 that have that line about the end of days not coming until a tribe of muslims kill a tribe of jews and the stones will cry out...come and kill him? I know you don't support it , well, actually I don't know,but we're talking about arabs wanting to annihilate or not and you say just a few nutjobs
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Hey if you want to get into crimes against the Jewish people look no further than the psychotic cult I was baptized into known as the Catholic church. Centuries of burning, torturing and otherwise making life a living hell for Jewish people. I don't see any retribution against the catholic church by Israel. Yet you want to somehow justify human rights violations with isolated violence by the population you find currently inconvenient. Give me a break.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Can you quote me. Where have I spoken about retribution for past crimes? (even retribution I wouldn't have used that word it sounds like pure revenge, for the sake of revenge, i'm not suggesting that on anybody), anyhow the Catholic church means no harm to Jews and is sorry. I am under no illusions about the persecution Christians have inflicted on the Jews over centuries or even millenia, Can you stop changing to new subjects.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Fuck that you brought up a massacre in1929. Why is that so fucking valid in this argument but the Catholics who said they're sorry for actually trying to annihilate the Jews is not?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
The context of me bringing up 1929 was asking you "what are you talking about? 1929?". That wasn't an attempt to annihilate the Jews - Jews wanting self determination at least, would be, as they tried in 1948 in a full declaration of war.Or in voting Hamas in 2006. Or Arafat talking about Hudabiya(a good codeword to go over your western head) watch?v=P8RRbPbIXe8 a temporary agreement Mohammed made before he annihilated a tribe.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Or Abbas talking in 2010 that if arabs support him he'll fight Israel.Or the way they name streets after Martyrs,or how suicide bombers funerals have been like weddings(when they could actually make it into israel and do them)BTW that arafat example was a recording from his speech in Johannesburg.2006 voting hamas was quite significant.Or their support for Abbas not recognising a jewish state but recognising a palestinian one.Or a PCPO poll in 2001 76.1% support suicide bombings
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
these help to show their intentions more recently. as do hamas's war attempts.. Bear in mind that a strong israel can cause them to go more peaceful, not because they are peaceful but because they're not hopeful of much success. They certainly aren't interested in another 1967, not because they love Israel more than they did.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
You may well support Hamas since it's democratically elected, as many jew haters do.. and expect jews to accept it and its charter! after all, they were democratically elected weren't they ok jews, so lay down and die!!!
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
You also tried many examples all of which I replied to, to say Jews have not such a historical bond to that land.. that it's comparable to English druids, or the Celtic connection to England or the Spanish connection to Ireland, or goodness knows what, and I responded to them. The Arabs don't accept the 1949 armistice lines or even the 1947 UN resolution, and why should they if they don't accept jewish history. Like you actually. And in their false history, jews are thieves.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa When did I say Jews don't have a historical bond to the land? I was saying lots of people have ancient ties to land. That doesn't necissarily give them rights to colonize it now. But whatever I know they are going to stay and I think they should. But the other folks are still around and aint goin anywhere. And they are just as much people with just as much rights as you or I or anyone.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
funny how every single comparison you made was an absurd one, like the bond the Spanish have to Ireland, or jews being a sovereign nation in the land, you compare to the right of English druids to rule England.. And you say Zionism is nothing to do with Jewish self determination, how can it not be? and what else can it be?
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa tell me how exactly were Druid Celtic British people not connected to their land but Israelittes were? For that matter how were Romani Gypsy people not connected to Rajastan or Igbo and Ashanti people not connected to the areas of West Africa that they were taken from. What makes Jews different than any of these other ethnic groups? Or do all these people have the right to go and expel whoever lives there now off of the land to start a new nation?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I never ever said such people weren't connected to their land. You made some analogies not with Rajastan Igbo and Ashantis. But with others like Druids and Celtic and Romani and stuff, comparing their connection to their land with the jewish connection to the jewish land, and right to sovereignty and I pointed out faults earlier with the analogies you gave. As if England should be run by Druids as much as Israel by Jews.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa how is it any different? You say you are an Atheist. What makes the Jewish religion more valid than the Druid religion? What makes the Celtic Britain's tie to the land less real you ethnocentric fuck? I am making analogies to ANYONE removed from their homeland. And for your information the Celtic people of Britain were extremely tied to the land. You think you are superior don't you? You also called Jews THE NATIVES as if no one else lived there or had any culture. Your sick.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o As if England should be run by druids? exactly its run by the people who live there now. They are protastant Christians and they would be a little pissed off if people came marching in and told them they were not real fucking people and they were all a bunch of terrorists with no culture. Hell they could go to sweden right? its a mostly protastant culture. but no thats not the point. You have a supremisist view of your culture. Like racists everywhere.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and in addition to what i've just said, no I don't have a supremacist view of jewish culture, infact, I have little to no personal interest in jewish culture particularly, and no personal interest in doing or believing the jewish religion.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Furthermore, I think other religions are better in many ways.. like where their religion is less of a burden. So these views you put to me as if they should be my views, that you address to me in the form of questions, are totally wrong They do show some classic beliefs that tend to be held of people that hate jews, like that jews are racial supremacists or other such nonsense.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I dislike aspects of many cultures including "jewish culture", and one thing I dislike about it, is the horrible hatred and nasty things some secular jews including non orthodox, believe about religious jews, maybe your "rabbi" friend told you what you believe is true of "THOSE JEWS".. and that's a sad thing about "jewish culture". But other cultures are also narrow and silly in many ways.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
And another thing about "jewish culture" is it gets horribly negatively influenced by jew haters whose beliefs get taken up by many jews too, as we saw with Henry Kissinger's horrific comment about Jews being gassed as not being an american concern and may be a humanitarian concern. And called Jews self serving bastards.I don't want Jews in power outside of Israel because of this problem in jewish culture of self hatred. And it comes partl from absorbing what jew haters tell them
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Infact during the Holocaust, the Jewish organisations did very little to help their fellow Jews, wherea in the 60s civil rights movement they sat on the whitehouse lawn and said no no we won't go for black people, which was nice, but they didn't do it for Jews. They're the opposite of self serving and the facts bear this out.. I do not like jewish culture much at all.. And the idea that i'm a supremacist is just your horrible beliefs about jews that justifies jew hatred.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Even after telling you that i'm a humanitarian, and giving reasons, it didn't take long for you to start saying what you said at te start, what people that hate jews tend to believe, which is that jews or a lot of jews or some jews, are supremacists. The Jewish religion is obviously not more valid than the Druid one.. you're not quoting me at all, you're just attributing insane views to me now in the form of questions. And I never said a connection was "less real".
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa uh nice try. I wasn't speaking out against Jewry. I was speaking out against YOU. You are the one who laughed at the idea of Druids or Gypsies or Africans having a tie to the land like Jews do to Israel. Now you are saying that YOU don't like Jewish culture. Good for you. I love and have nothing but respect for Jewish culture. What I don't have respect for is ethnocentrism which I think many Zionists today unfortunately are showing.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Deary me, you really have a problem with language.. and comprehension. I did not laugh at any people having a tie to their land. But you brought up analogies to say things like Jews have as much right to rule Israel as Druids do to rule England. And when I pointed out a problem with that analogy - Druids have never ruled England before, that's a hole in your analogy. It's not "laughing".
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa So what religion dominated Britain(England is the AngloSaxon word for the place) during the time the Romans started setting up camp? What ethnic group were they again? Maybe I missed something.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Well, one could call them English or Anglo Saxon I suppose, but as far as I know, they weren't Druids.. But having never met a Druid, and having listened to English nationalists and not heard them hark on about the Druids, I guessed they didn't rule England. If they did then i'd have to give it some thought and maybe meet a few. You might know more than me about them. Is England the worldwide home of the Druids? I still see a big flaw with druids ruling..
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
most people in Britain are liberal christian or non believers,... Paganism is a small minority in a land not sparsely populated. And it's not ruled by some big imperialistic Empire. Pagans could perhaps also claim Saudi Arabia as much as England.. I don't think England is a homeland for Pagans for example(and pagans aren't a nation either). You bring up some interesting analogies i'll give you that.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I suppose the religion was Paganism.. but Paganism wasn't restricted to England. I thought Druids were like a Pagan priesthood.. maybe they ruled I don't know. But there were Pagans in Saudi Arabia too 1500 years ago. England is not the homeland of Pagans. I don't know what is, maybe they don't have one, just a religion but without a central place. Islam has a central place, Saudi Arabia.(funnily enough their holy site the Kabba was originally Pagan as you may know)
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa ya know its ok to admit sometimes that you don't know what you are talking about. Pagan is a name medeival christians gave to anyone who wasn't Christian or Jewish. Druids were priests of their religion but the name also is applied to the religion of the Celtic people of the British Isles. You don't think any holy sites in Israel were originally pagan? Look the bottom line is NO ethnic group is perminant, they change and adapt and evolve.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
thank you, and it's ok for you to admit that you don't even know of the 800,000 jewish refugees from arab lands , and the main topic is Israel and Arabs and Jews, and I seem to be a lot better informed than you. I know I don't know about Druids and Celts! but thanks for the info.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
infact I don't think jewish sites - sites of Am Yisrael - were pagan, I think Am Yisrael built them. Like the graves of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.. The grave of Rachel. The remaining wall of the jewish temple which was built by the Jews. These were not pagan sites! Not like the Islammic Kabba in Mecca. Now, as to your bottom line....
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Jews are a religio-nation, they do accept converts, so not strictly an ethnic group.. People can change and adapt and drop an identity completely. Or adopt a new identity. But when an identity has been held onto for thousands of years, and carries with it a unique and incredible history, that is both horribly sad at times, but also tremendous at other times, then there is an incredible amount of significance to it and people may choose not to drop it even after millenia.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I'm not sure what an Ethno-centric zionist is? Zionists can be Jewish or Gentile, and I don't know any Zionist that rejects converts! Meir Kahane who was quite extreme among Zionists relatively speaking,compared to other Zionists, and he said any Arab that becomes a Jew, is as Jewish as he is.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
to be more clear, Jews don't in any generation attempt to be a pure ethnic group. But given genetic studies, it turns out Jews all over the world from the Middle East to Europe, have as we've discussed, more in common with each other than with their neighbours. Because not so many converts in the past 2000 years. Even 2000 years ago you might think people were very ethno-centric, but Jews still had converts. So were always a religio-nation. And from the start..
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
from the beginnings of Judaism,Jacob's sons, married women that would've converted joining Am Yisrael,so not even very ethno-centric then.And converts identify very strongly with Jewish history,and the jewish destiny,whatever that may be,and join in the story of jewish story,a story that continues on! A story that had a terrible downpoint for 2000 years of powerlessness and persecution and genocide but finally we have a state,and any gentile can convert or not,and share that joy.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
And an interesting thing about Israel is you see Jews from all over the world, looking quite different from each other, but united as one people with a shared history, after 2000 years, it's an incredible beautiful thing. and very sad that there are those that wish to destroy it.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Jews are actually known as Am Yisrael(People Of Israel), and call their land Eretz Yisrael(The land of Israel). So the bond there is even in the name of the Jews. They only have one homeland. And their language is tied to that land. If you take pagans for example, they're not a nation and I doubt there's 1 pagan language and 1 pagan homeland.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
A key thing here is this. Israel was not Established in 2012.. And Israel was not Established when the "Palestinians" ruled the land(which never happened). It's not like Druids coming to England and saying Move out or We should run the place. The British are already ruling. The Ottomans ruled Israel/mandatory palestine/south syria. After the Ottomans, it was agreed by the international community at san Remo that the Jews run it. Then the British ruled it.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
The Arabs who had -nothing- were given a bunch of states,. This was just as a reward from Britain for helping to take down the Islammic Ottoman Empire.. And they got more states as time went on. They were also given East Palestine, which they called Transjordan.. later Jordan.. And now they wanted West too, they wanted the Jews to have nothing. The Jews accepted a division of the land even in 1948, the Arabs went to war.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
There were no identifying Palestinians then. The Arabs particularly of that time, insisted there were no Palestinians. They were arab nationalists. The Jews weren't taking land ruled by Arabs. The land was ruled by the British and Ottomans before that.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o And I never said I dislike Jewish culture. I was very clear, I said I dislike aspects of many cultures, including aspects of "jewish culture" if you want to use such an expression. And I gave examples of self hating jews, and i'd include your "rabbi" friend there as suffering from it. But Jews aren't the only ones to suffer from self haters. One thing you are correct on is that I don't know much about tribes in Africa.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
And being a native doesn't mean that others are not natives. And I even said, the land had arabs there, and was sparsely populated, and it was. I never suggested just going in and uprooting them. I never said they're not real people. And what I said about them not identifying as a Palestinian people, is something the now very pro Palestinian and always Anti-Israel ones would say themselves Obviously it doesn't mean they're not human or not real people.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and your current one with the Rajastan or Igbo and Ashanti people being you say taken from their land.. you're comparing that with Arabs/Palestinians, Palestine Arabs, South Syrian Arabs whatever they are, being "taken from" their land.. this is an analogy you give now which I could address.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Well Igbo and ashanti were taken as slaves from west Africa. The Jews were driven out by Romans much more like the Gypsies in Rajastan. Are you saying African Americans(with Igbo blood) or Gypsies or Cherokee or anyone else driven by whatever does have or doesn't have the right to uproot the current population. Is it just Jews driving out Arabs that is morally ok with you or not.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
The Jewish connection, or Bond even, to that land and legal right to sovereignty in that land, and historic bond involving sovereignty, All of that, alone, does not and did not and was not, what gave Jews the right to throw anybody out of the land. As to what would give Jews the right, Well, it's a slightly misleading question, since Jews -hardly did-No Arab lost his home until they declared War in 1948 and I think you'll find if you look at quotes from their leaders, their goal
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Arabs fled in war, that's why they lost the land. In Benny Morris's book, palestinian refugee problem or palestinian refugee problem revisited, he lists about 320 cities.there were multiple causes to the flight, like a nearby city coming under jewish control scared the arabs that I think being violent themselves thought the jews would do to them what they'd do to the jews. They ran.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
there were according to benny, some cases of expulsion, but a very small portion. There was also a portion that left because the arabs asked them to leave, the logic being, leave and we'll mow them down and then come back, leave so you don't get caught up in it. The "palestinians" left waiting for the jews to be kicked out, the other arabs fought for them, and the jews didn't invite them back.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Like depending onhow you calculate it, 4 cases of arabs asking populations to leave, and 13 of expulsion. these of 320ish towns.But most towns had multiple causes.. But I recall Ephraim Karsh points out that a big arab towns involved arabs asking population to leave, and if I recall, Mahmoud Abbas admitted this story as the reason he ended up leaving.Ultimately though i'd point out, it was a War.Arabs started. And the British had no connection to Africa.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
The British Empire just ruled all over the place for greed, status, money. (The Arab Islammic empire would've been pretty bad too, not just the West).The british aren't natives to that land don't speak the language of that land, don't keep the religion of that land. Never ruled that land before, never dreamed of ruling it.Only wanted it for resources. And already had a homeland - England.So not only no right, but grossly immoral to remove africans.. if they did. Not sure who did
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Also the Africans, if they are such a people, and they now identify as one perhaps, they do have many homelands, so for example, if South Africa had stayed white, they'd still have had lots of land, they wouldn't have no homeland at all.. and I don't think one part of Africa is enormously more important to the African people than another. But still no foreign people have a right to enslave them, uproot them just for money or something.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa I was talking about specific tribes. It happens to be the most geneticly diverse continent on the planet. Thats like saying The Jews are white so they could have just lived in the Ukraine.(I know they aren't all white btw) You obviously know nothing about Africa so your talking out of your ass to make a lame ass point.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and not just no right but it's very immoral.. but not analogous to the jews and the arabs.. as mentioned, the Jews are natives came in and arabs only lost their homes when arabs started a war and most lost the land by fleeing. And also I wouldn't shed a tear since it's being nice to each other contractual.. they persecuted and caused 800,000 Jews to flee from Arab lands and property was stolen. So even more than Palestinian Refugees.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa When did they cause 800,000 Jews to flee?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
800,000 Jews had to flee Arab lands, there were 2 main waves, once around the 1948 war, and again around the 1967 war. And between them too.. There are organisations like JJAC that seek justice for them.
boliussa 1 month ago
Comment removed
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I am well aware that they are human beings. Bear in mind though, some humans are worse than other ones. And that doesn't mean they should all be killed either.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
By the way, from the point of view of suffering human beings, since you're such a humanitarian you should realise, that from that perspective, kicking out a jew that likes the beach, to some other beach, is far less horrible, than kicking out a jew that is in jerusalem or hebron and feels very much part of jewish history in the heart of the jewish homeland, it's a far deeper feeling that can't be had anywhere else and it's ripping his heart out to take him from there.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Gee that sucks. It sucked when my grandma had to move out of her house to a rest home too but I wouldn't call it a humanitarian disaster. We got her a cat, she's ok. when a a school in Gaza got white phosfurus dropped on it, that was a humanitarian disaster. Where exactly do you live?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
i'll address that but can you address other points, like one you've avoided twice so far, how on earth you think Zionism is not about jewish self determination, and never was? - how can it be anything else?
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Zionism can be defined in a number of ways. That may be how you define it. Congratulations. I've also heard "a land without a people for a people without a land" which kinda sucks for the people on that land. Anyway if you define it as Jewish self-determination than I have no problem with Zionism. Unfortunately that definition in no way justifies anything we are arguing about.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
What you give "a land without a people for..." is not a definition of Zionism. It was a slogan used by Zionists in those days, and it's true in a sense(people yes, but not a people), but mostly unfortunately misleading since some might think no people.. Jabotinsky,a big Zionist,famously recognised the that there were people there, albeit sparsely populated,and Arabs, in those days the Arabs never identified as Palestinian. They identified with the general area like Greater Syria
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
What you call a definition, you won't find in any dictionary of encyclopedia, it was just a slogan as i've described. What I gave you is the definition, and any other definition if there even is any other one, would have to meet that criteria. You simply had your definition wrong.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
that is, zionism being about the jewish people being a free people in their own land, in charge of their own destiny, jewish self determination.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Bullshit! Even Hamas who I despise btw publicly stated they would recognize the pre1967 borders. If Israel withdrew settlements. You are full of shit son. The only thing they will not recognize is a Jewish state because that wouldn't be fair to Muslims living in Israel. It also wouldn't be fair to an Atheist living in Israel. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE ARAB PEOPLE! SO QUIT TELLING ME WHAT THEY WANT.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Well, we can examine what Hamas said, and we may find they don't recognise Israel within any borders. Israel IS a Jewish state already. Israel defines itself as such, maybe you don't understand what a Jewish state is. Netanyahu is asking that they recognise Israel for what it is. It's the root of the problem, he identified it. Netanyahu is Probably an Atheist by the way. I really doubt he believes in Judaism for example, if he did he'd have a beard and go to Synagogue often.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
I also don't recall ever hearing Netanyahu mention God, even to Christians,other than the slogan God bless the united states of america which is a classic way to end a speech and just saying"bless the united states of america"would be terrible politics.A lot of senators,as dan Dennett has spoken about,believe in belief.But, just my opinion based on all I know about the man Netanyahu.He may not be an Atheist.But hes definitely not a religious jew.And often people like that dont believe
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
ok that was a bit of a deep thing for me to say , that if he believed in judaism he'd have a beard and go to synagogue often or that he's wear a head covering and so on.. Reform/Conservative judaism and so on, is way outside anything you know about. Surveys have shown 30% of their clergy don't believe in God, and i've no doubt they think you don't have to. They may even say Judaism is not a religion.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
If you watch Sam Harris talking at one Reform/Conservative place, the host said something along the lines of "I don't think anybody here would disagree with anything you said" and one audience member even asked what to do about these "true believers". But that's a complex subject, especially for somebody with your lack of background.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Certainly Netanyahu is very secular..that's pretty well known, and obvious, and he has always seen Israel as a Jewish state and speaks very passionately about it being a Jewish state.. more than any other PM. And he's talking secular. Remember Israel has a Bahai Temple, the Bahai has their main temple In Haifa,Israel. Nowhere else in the Middle East. And it's a beautiful big temple they can be proud of, if you see a picture.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
And Israel can be proud as a Jewish state, giving them that freedom, a freedom that probably wouldn't have in any Arab or Muslim state.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa Well I guess I don't understand what a Jewish state is then. If one was talking about an ethnicity than that is more disturbing than a religion. If the US claimed to be a European state because more people are from that continent that would be pretty fucked up for Blacks, Asians the Native population. Pakistan is a Muslim state and I think we both would agree it's totally fucked. Israel can be a democracy OR a Jewish state. Both is kind of an oxymoron.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Yes it is potentially problematic..but also remember even in a western edmocracy, democracy doesn't overrule say, the constitution.A Jewish state as a nation state requires a majority of Jews, that's it.Some nation states like Hungary I suppose, are still perhaps Hungarian.In this day and age, Western countries, England now no longer really considered a nation state.. and English nationalism is a very ugly thing, there's the BNP which has fascist roots, fascist neo-nazi members..
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
if 51% of people vote to kill the other 49% then other values, liberal values overrule it. So things can come before democracy. And being a nation state could be preserved just by limited immigration, but treating the other citizens very well giving them social rights, perhaps not certain rights that'd give them sovereingty.. but Muslims already have Muslim states and Arabs Arab states. Jews want one safe place to call home, and be captains of their own ship.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa I don't like muslim states or arab states or white states or black states ok? An Israeli state seems just fine. Most likely the guy in charge is a Jew and that's just dandy. Would you address my response to the whole gypsy celtic african thing a few paragraphs above please?
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Jews are a Religio-nation, which isn't just a nation.. so not really racial by intention, just an effect of not so many conversions over the past 2000 years and a strict process, and it not being popular to be jewish. Religious Jews would the demands of Orthodox Judaism, accept anybody of any race, including any Arab, that converts sincerely and becomes jewish. They'd be as jewish as anybody.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
A German, an African, et.c. would be as Jewish as anybody, as jewish as any chief rabbi, if they convert. So it's not just a nation, it's a religio-nation. Which might be a fairly unique thing, an ancient thing kept alive for thousands of years.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Israel IS currently both a democracy and a jewish state. and it's a pretty liberal democracy too. As I said, the Bahai couldn't live in any muslim state but can in the one and only jewish state.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and I mean, the Bahais living fine not persecuted, and with a very large beautiful temple, their main temple in Haifa.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa well great if thats what the people want fantastic but could you just be ok with a Palestinian state not recognizing it as such. Say they recognize a secular state and you recognize a Jewish one and everybody gets along? I for one as an Atheist would not be OK with the Christians designating my country as a Christian state. Even if I was Christian Id be against it. And trust me there are plenty of freaks that want it to be one here.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Well, they have a Palestinian state, Jordan, which was almost called the Hashemite Kingdom Of Palestine. "Historic Palestine" if one wants to use such a term seeing Palestine as a historical thing, then it covered both banks of the Jordan river. Jordan is about 70% of it. So the question is should they have a 22nd arab state and second Palestinian state, in the Heart of the historic jewish homeland.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Here's where you might not like me.. I personally think that if the Arabs declare war on Israel, then I might be OK with Israel committing some war crimes minimally, to drive them out.. And i'm fine with the idea that if anybody(not an ethnic thing, Jew or Arab) that doesn't accept Israel as it was founded, as the one and only jewish state, then chuck them out too. It's a horribly extreme measure, but a one-off.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Christians aren't a nation, they're just a religion. In a sense, England for example is partly Christian, like some shops closing on Sundays Israel infact has things closed on Saturdays. It's a little something to remind one it's a Jewish state, beyond it being a jewish majority. Nice to have some things so it's not just a Hebrew speaking portugal.. but i'd rather it was something less extreme than Shabbat! Like maybe just very religious areas could have that restriction.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
or the historically jewish areas that are especially important particularly to some religious jews who cling to them so much, like Jerusalem, Hebron, that while they mean a lot to -some- secular jews or atheist jews, they'd mean a lot more to a national-religious jew who has the whole religious dimension of meaning causing him to feel even more connected to that land, so i'd be happy for "no driving on saturday" there.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
as far as a palestinian state, jordan, they could even be religious muslim, in theory islam can be lovely, look at Sheikh Palazzi, and they can say No Jews in Jordan, fine by me, as long as we have Israel. There are verses in the quran that are very pro israel, but in practice today, if Jordan was a religious muslim state one could predict that it'd be bad for its jewish neighbour. And I reckon the muslims that are violent may have their interpretation more correct, maybe.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
It's just a terrible nasty eternal travesty of Justice, that the heart of the jewish homeland should be forever in arab hands, it's horrendous. Many Jews would understandably be willing to die themselves to prevent such a terrible thing, if it could be prevented.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and i'd be willing to give up other parts of the jewish homeland, to rescue the heart of it. But it's such a small amount of land as it is. The Negev(southern Israel) isn't so incredibly meaningful to jews.(and some palestinians want to move there since that was where their ancestors were from -losing their home in 1948, and not from the disputed territory), i'd rather give that.And throw any Jews living there out. Than have the indignity of losing the heart of historic Israel.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
In 1964,(while Jordan also had the judea and samaria), the PLO declared their aspirations, palestinian aspirations, as ruling Palestine both sides of the Jordan, but interestingly, Excluding the west bank/judea and samaria. That area is no more special to them than any other part, infact perhaps less since they excluded it from what they wanted!
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Then in 1968 after Jordan lost it, the PLO rewrote their charter to wanting that area..the "west bank". Technically Jordan is the East Bank. (jordan still ended up expelling the PLO for trying to take over his country) and Jordan is majority palestinian.. so as some say, a democratic jordan is palestine. it's just ruled by Hashemites, and increasingly less so. It's Palestine in all but name, and was almost in name too "hashemite kingdom of palestine"
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Also America wasn't founded as a nation state.. and they've had so much immigration, and people from all races are loyal to it (and i'm not suggesting chucking out an "unloyal race" even from Israel!) for America to suddenly say they're a nation state, they never were, there was no American hundreds of years ago. (native americans would've called it something else and it was populated by a very different people than now). Israel was even when founded, a Jewish state
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
and the right of return is proof that they don't accept the 1949 armistice lines as a border, it's a farce, because it means an arab majority in israel and thus the end of the jewish state. and the beginning of another arab state in the middle east.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa thats slipperyslope bullshit. Why don't you shut the fuck up with your insane conclusions based on your opinion about what you think Palestinians want, and listen to the proposals they are making.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
A right of return as it stands, would mean all Palestinians have a right to return to the town their ancestors lived, or just to within the 49 armistice lines if their ancestor lived there, that logically means what I said, it's a guarantee. Not a slippery slope. A slippery slope is X could lead to Y which could lead to Z.. There are millions of palestinian refugees and they want to end the zionist entity. We know as a fact they are anti zionist, don't you know?
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
If the Arabs that try to kill all the jews, run away, and hope to annihilate them still, then yes I think you start a war and lose, you lose, and not only that, jews can't invite them back to have another go at annihilating the jews.. you can't expect jews to be suicidal.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Religion is important in the arab/islammic world, and Benny Morris has pointed out how a Fatwa from the * ulema * at Cairo's Al-Azhar University called for jihad. That's very authoritative and binding on the Sunni Islammic world. Religion was and is important in the Islammic world. There are also many quotes from the Arab leaders in 1948 and 1967 showing bloody motives. And if you look at Arab Media today you see the hatred and viciousness watch?v=h8OiN0ddH2A .
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Judea and Samaria is not the Sinai. Judea and Samaria is the most important part of the land of Israel to any real identifying Jew. To Jews that care just about pleasure and not really about being jewish and jewish history, then they prefer the beaches near the coast, they could live anywhere. But for a Jew thinking as a Jew, Judea and Samaria are the heart of the homeland. More important than anywhere else
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Then you could say it of Jews from Arab lands too.. Continuing with your comparisons, Regarding Persians, I'm sure a lot of Iranians feel Persian, combine the two identities, and for sure the Persians haven't been through the powerlessness and persecution that are -part- of what makes a Jewish homeland such an important thing in the hearts of many Jews.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa I would most definitely say Mizrahi Jews are very much an Arab Population. In Iran the Jews are very proud to be Persians as well as Jews and are not willing to go to Israel because they don't want to loose their unique culture. I understand the connection to the land that's a beautiful thing. What I don't get is the RIGHT to control the land and more specifcly the exclusive right to the land. And now the RIGHT to take more. That's downright insane.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I can assure you that -most- Mizrahi Jews do not identify as Arab, but as Jews from Arabic speaking countries. Infact many "Arabs" only started identifying as Arabs after Arab nationalism which is later than Zionism. By the way, Iranians are often proud of saying they're not Arabs! Perhaps because they've managed to preserve Persian..
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
By the way, the holocaust comparison is quite serious too, i'd appreciate it if we can continue on that too. Like what that comparison has to do with questioning Netanyahu's motives..see my comments.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
if being a refugee for 2000 years is nuts, you should object to the concept of a Palestinian refugee purely based on an ancestor that fled, their status is for eternity, and after 100 years, 1000 years, 2000 years, they'll still insist on it if they're still about, and that's enshrined in UN law! That they are refugees "in perpetuity"..
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa right but unfortunately for you some of those refugees are still alive and tell a different story. I haven't heard of any survivors of the Jewish diaspora. If you meet any let me know, I'm sure they are pretty interesting people.
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
I don;t know what you mean by survivors of the jewish diaspora, if you're playing a game talking about survivors from the exile by the romans.. as you know they wouldn't be alive today. But the point is that descendents of Palestinian refugees are still seen as refugees You're welcome to reject that UN definition, do you? So fine. I'd say then Jews aren't refugees, but living in Exile. Diaspora is a softer word, for Exile.
boliussa 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
Funnily enough, the definition of Palestinian as originally set down, was anybody that has been there for 2 years.really a lot have moved all over Syria. and is no palestinian identity but that's another matter.
boliussa 1 month ago
Comment removed
madmiguelh2o 1 month ago
@madmiguelh2o
could you also tell me if you are jewish? because really if you were jewish you should be more educated.. Sometimes israelis can be more ignorant on the racism jews suffer because they don't live among gentiles and dthey don't see it. Are you Israeli? Are you Jewish?
boliussa 1 month ago
אנחנו פשיסטים, תעזבי ת ' דתיים - זאת אמונתם, אבל גם החילונים וגם השמאל רוצים "מדינה יהודית ", יש לנו בעיה.... והתנחלויות זה לא בעיה, מותר לאנשים לגור איפה הם רוצים, הבעיה היא שזה חד צדדי. וגם הערבים הם לא מלאכים עם האסלאם שלהם - לא יותר טוב מהיהדות. אותו פשיזם
milkyroadtube 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
jews = root of all evil
Boycottkillers 3 months ago
@fuckFAKEstinians2
למה עלובים ? כי אני יודע דברים שלא לימדו אותך בבית ספר לערסים שלך ?
מי ששונא אתאיסתים או שונא בכלל זה ערסים דתיים מגעילים כמוך :)
Atheist12345678 4 months ago
אני מזכיר לך את מטרתנו האתאיסטים! להפוך את ישראל למדינה חילונית! להחזיר אנשים בשאלה! להפריד דת ממדינה!
מעט חרגת מהמטרות
תעשי סרטון בעברית, העקיצות בעברית נשמעות טוב יותר
1981Mrxela 4 months ago
שלום נירה ברוכה החוזרת מהחופש
גם לי צרם שהתחלת להתעסק בפוליטיקה. ציפינו לסרטון שבו את לוקחת פרשיות מהתנך ועושה מהם מטעמים בדרכך הייחודית.
כן אפשר להיות ציוני אתאיסט ואני ההוכחה לכך
אפשר, רצוי, וחובה לבקר את הדת שלנו שמסרבת להתקדם לעת החדשה
אבל עם ישראל היה פה לפני 3000 שנה ואי אפשר להגיד שכל הארץ היא כבושה במיוחד שלא היה עם כזה פליסטינים. והוא הומצא על ידי ערפאת כחלק מהתוכנית לקחת עוד שטחים אפשריים מהיהודים ותו לו.
1981Mrxela 4 months ago
@1981Mrxela משעשע, לך תפתח ספר על היסטוריית האדמות של ארץ ישראל.
MrpuGsi 4 months ago
@MrpuGsi מר פוגסי לא הבנתי את תגובתך , למה התכוונת?
1981Mrxela 4 months ago
זה מה שיש לחבר האתאיסט שלנו להגיד על השכנים העוינים שלנו: watch?v=j1N1zhUm84w
JacklinAbutbul 4 months ago
רוב העובדות שהוא נותן לא מדוייקות בלשון המעטה.
שום דבר ממה שהוא אומר לא מהווה לגטימציה להכות או לבצע מעשים מגונים בפעילי שמאל.
yehudaGoldner 4 months ago
@yehudaGoldner
העובדות דווקא מדוייקות ופשוטות להפליא. לשמאל קשה להפנים את זה ועל כן אנו סובלים.
מישהו דיבר על לגיטימציה לאלימות?
JacklinAbutbul 4 months ago
מעניין למה מכל האירועים בחרת לציין את האירוע הזה. לא חסרים ארועים קשים יותר. בעיקר כאלה שהערבים עושים. מעניין למה שמאלנים בוחרים להתעלם מכל מה שהערבים עושים ולזעוק לכל העולם על כל ילד פלסטיני שנשברה לו הציפורן. עלובים, נמאסתם.
JacklinAbutbul 4 months ago