IF DENOMINATIONS ARE RIGHT THEN MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. HOWEVER, IF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST IS RIGHT, AND IT IS, THOSE IN DENOMINATIONS HAVE MUCH TO FEAR.To be saved you must do ALL of God's word including: hear, believe, repent, confess be baptized then remain faithful til death. ONLY then will you be saved. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life".(Rev. 2:10) YOU will be held accountable so read the entire Bible for YOURself.
Not to be misunderstood with an ad hominem, but Dr. Walter Martin seems kind of show off and rude, especially on his radio show. I'm not saying he is but it just seems like it. I mean, the other guys he has debated seem more understanding while he seems to criticize what is not true.
Part 1- at 2:40 in the video he says 'No docterine of the SDA church was derived from EGW.' He may believe this although this is nothing but double speak or legalism from the SDA church. Take the seventh day for instance. The board or the counsel came to EGW with the Seventh Day docterine, EGW was against it. She then did a 360 on the topic through the spirit of prophecy and got the OK for it.
Part 2- So what this means is that no longer your faith in Christ is enough, but the day that you worship on becomes a requirement for salvation. Many SDA's would say that that proves that Mrs. EGW was wrong and the counsel or board was right. So now, who has the spirit of prophecy? The board and it's many members or Mrs. White?
Part 3-The point is that, NO the beliefs of SDA's don't originate with Mrs. White, BUT they are backed up by the spirit of prophecy through Mrs. White. So it is absolutely legalistic double speak to say that they did not originate with Mrs. White which is technically correct but then backed up by the spirit of prophecy. Can you see the circle?
Ellen g white is a false prophet she proved that by predicting the end of the world And saying Jesus did not have a body of flesh and blood at one stage. False prophets are proved by 1 wrong prophecy and if she had of been living in the old testament she would of been stoned to death. The sda movement is in fact a cult.
Do not translate word by word in languages, but understand the concept. In Heb9:7-> Highpriest in Old Test. entered Holy of Holiest once a year; by comparaison, Heb9:12 stated Jesus, the new Highpriest, entered the Holy of Holiest once for all. Paul also uses the word "Hagia" to talks about the Holy place, and the Holy of Holiest, or the sanctuary as a whole in the book of Hebrews: chap8:2. chap9:2,8,12,24,25. chap10:19, chap13:11. The doctrine of 1844 is a false teaching, SDA need to repent
I agree Dr Walter Martin has made a very serious mistake in stating that 'ta hagia' in Hebrews 9:12 means 'Most Holy Place'. It does not - for this reason: the only place in Hebrews where the writer unmistakably means Most Holy Place is Hebrews 9:3 where 'hagia hagion' is used, but this unique expression is not used in 9:12 - despite who various translations render it. The SDA position is correct. I am impressed at Dr Johnsson's gentle Christian witness.
I agree Dr Walter Martin has made a very serious mistake is stating that 'ta hagia' in Hebrews 9:12 means 'Most Holy Place'. It does not for this reason: the only place in Hebrews where the writer unmistakably means Most Holy Place is Hebrews 9:3 where 'hagia hagion' is used, but this unique expression is not used in 9:12 - despite who various translations render it. The SDA position is correct. I am impressed at Dr Johnsson's gentle Christian witness.
No mr. Martin you are wrong, the Greek text is right. It says "hagia" which the holy place. If it meant the most holy place it would read "hagia hagion". Your Greek professor needs to study more my language.
repent and trust in jesus alone and you will be saved youll be born again and become a new creation in christ and he will give you a new heart then the change will come natruly like a fly flys. ellen g white is an evil old bat from hell and shes bringing many to there eternal loss. come on 7th day we love yis but you cnt rely on ellen g white shes a lier and a joke nd yous are raped up in hard nose religon what jesus came to denounce!! call upon the lords name and you will be saved!!!!!!!
SDAs are mean people, I didnot believe E.White's Phophecies. They jumped all over me & said: " You can blaspheme God, but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit, b/c if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you can never be saved" Was that terrible? Mean- Mean_Mean. I pray to God the Holy Spirit everyday for the day Christ will come again. He will judge the living & the dead. E. White will be embarrassed with her false prophecies
They think she has the Spirit of prophecy so to reject her they feel is to reject the Spirit of prophecy, but you are right, she presumed to speak in the name of God and spoke falsehoods, thus we know we have nothing to fear from her.
Follow Jesus people and follow His words. The reformation wasn't perfect either. Calvinism can be refuted from scripture rather easily too yet many apologists hold to Calvin's teachings. There were true Christians before the Catholic Church even came into existence. Let's just read God's Word and follow it. Let Ellen G. White rest in peace. Go win some souls.
The church should be having a relationship with Jesus not ellen g white or William miller but Christ! Most Churches are started by individuals and these people have influence and power in the Churches while Christ becomes a footnote
@dconklin58 You still say I didn't give you the correct and exact info for the references but the following is copied and pasted from my previous post several weeks ago. ""General Conference Archives, 3 Article series: The Ministry Magazine, April, May, June 1945 by Merwin Thurber, Secretary; D & R Revision Committee".
The White Estate has 18 or more centers around the world where all of its documents can be researched & read. Further, we are already embarked on the process of pub. her entire letter & mss file. It will be done w/out any redactions, but it will include annotations that should help the reader understand, ... who the people are that are being written to & about, & what the sit. may have been that Mrs. White was addressing." The 1st vol. should be out next yr."
@dconklin58 Ellen White also ate squirrel, possum and wild ducks that her son Willie shot. That is not a critics claim. This is SDA fact if you only bothered yourself to read any of her books and letters.
@BuckLakeBoy: "Ellen White also ate squirrel, possum and wild ducks that her son Willie shot. That is not a critics claim."
Must be--you're making it here and you're the first one to mention it. No source is given for it, as usual. BTW, "possoum" isn't in her writings. "Squirrel" is--but she didn't eat it and nothing about Willie doing the shotting. BTW, ducks are clean to eat.
@dconklin58 You claim to be an SDA scholar and since you twist facts when I give you sources from your own publications I will not give any. You seem to be too lazy to look deeply into any topic. That's the problem with SDA's who won't research for themselves...they read only what is convenient. Since her own writings deal with her eating squirrel, possum, wild duck, oysters and herring go search a little deeper.
@dconklin58 "That's another lie. I've never claimed any such thing."...Sorry, I thought you were an SDA scholar! I got that from your posts. You have proven the Veltman report, accepted by the GC and the White Estate, is in error. You have personally debunked over 80 "whoppers" about EGW. You claim to have had access to her unpublished works. I made a TERRIBLE mistake believing you were a scholar and I apologize!
@dconklin58 " You lied when you claimed that she ate squirrel and that it was Willie who shot them."....When Ellen and James were en route by horse and carriage they found themselves hungry and between rest stops in the countryside. James shot a possum, cleaned and cooked it for them and she gave thanks to God for providing for them. SHE said it. Don't blame me for something Ellen White said!
"Since his day, later books of the Spirit of Prophecy, such as Desire of Ages, came out in the ninties and later on, making clear with the support of the Scriptures that Christ is coeternal with the Father." (sources given).
Later in the quote and article it notes that there was some difference of opinion, and that the committee thought it "wise to omit this teaching [by Smith] without comment" ... "and leave the matter open for all to study without let or hindrance."
@dconklin58 "Mary, if you can get me a good box of herrings - fresh ones - please do so. These last ones that Willie got are bitter and old. If you can buy cans, say (a) half dozen cans of good tomatoes, please do so. We shall need them. If you can get a few cans of good oysters, get them". E.G. White, Letter 16, 1882
Whoppers (note that BuckLakeBoy admitted one was a lie, but he hasn't done that with any since):
"E. G. White prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851: "Now time is almost finished,(1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." EARLY WRITINGS p. 57 (Bogus quote)
"She did the same thing when she talked to her dead HUSBAND when she needed advice on her problems"
@BuckLakeBoy: "You still make EXCUSES for her borrowing, paraphrasing etc."
I haven't made any excuse. Unless the fact, that paraphrasing is a legitimate literary activity bothers you. My problem lies with outright lies: EGW stole "80-90% (and possibly much more)."
@BuckLakeBoy: "The very men whom Saul had purposed to destroy WERE TO BE HIS INSTRUCTORS in the religion he had despised and persecuted...Saul becomes a LEARNER of the DISCIPLES"."
Wow, you can quote from a book. Now tell us: why it is a whopper?
@BuckLakeBoy: " The Ministry Magazine, April, May, June 1945 by Merwin Thurber, Secretary; D & R Revision Committee. "
I have printed and scanned through all 3 issues. I failed to see the word "Arian" in any of them and the article in the June issue had nothing to do with theology, but the charge of plagiarism--thank you for another item in my bibliography (brings it up to 718 I believe).
@dconklin58 "More whoppers"___Sketches From The Life of Paul by Ellen G. White Chap. 2:
"Jesus sends the inquiring Jew [Paul]to his Church, to OBTAIN FROM THEM a knowledge of his duty...and now the penitent[Paul]was in a condition to learn of those whom God had ordained to teach his truth. The very men whom Saul had purposed to destroy WERE TO BE HIS INSTRUCTORS in the religion he had despised and persecuted...Saul becomes a LEARNER of the DISCIPLES".
@dconklin58 THE ADVENTIST TRINITY DEBATE By Jerry A. Moon, Ph.D., Andrews Uni, How clear views of Jesus developed in the Adventist Church by G. Valentine, The Arian or Anti-Trinitarian Views Presented in SDA Literature & the E.G. White Answer by E. Gane, Heresy or Hopeful Sign? Early Adventists' Struggle with the Truth about the Trinity by Jerry Moon, Arianism, Adventism and Methodism:The Healing of Trinitarian Teaching and Soteriology by W.Whidden, PhD., Prof, Andrews
"later he revised his belief & teaching to the effect that Christ was begotten sometime back in eternity before the creation of the world.Since his day,later books of the Spirit of prophecy, such as D of A, came out in the nineties...making clear..that Christ is coeternal with the Father.Since there is some difference of view among us on this point, it seemed..wise to omit this teaching without comment".M.THURBER, Sec.of "Daniel and the Revelation" Revision Committee
@BuckLakeBoy: wise to omit this teaching without comment".M.THURBER, Sec.of "
Part and parcel of giving a quote is to say where it came from--i.e., what page number. I always wonder why the critics can't do that. Then I find that the quote was made up.
@dconklin58 "I have printed and scanned through all 3 issues. I failed to see the word "Arian" in any of them and the article in the June issue had nothing to do with theology"___Duh! I You want ref's so I gave you all 3 articles regarding expunging Urtiah Smith's Arian views in Daniel & Revelation and you complain you got TOO MUCH. The article in question is quoted below and you don't recognize the content because you did not find the word Arian. You can lead a horse to water.....
@BuckLakeBoy: "You want ref's so I gave you all 3 articles regarding expunging Urtiah Smith's Arian views in Daniel & Revelation and you complain you got TOO MUCH."
No, the problem is that one has noithing to do with any theological problems and you FAILED to give the exact page on which the alleged quote was on. If you wish to continue to lie ab't me we're done.
@dconklin58 "More whoppers"___Gal.1:.."the gospel I preached ...I DID NOT receive it from ANY man, NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ....But when God, who set me apart from birth...was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I DID NOT consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
@dconklin58 "More whoppers;19. That she contradicted Scripture" Ellen White did contradict scripture! She wrote incorrectly about Paul and where he received his tutoring from, she placed the tower of Babel before AND after the flood, she placed conception of the plan of salvation AFTER man sinned [Patriarchs & Prophets] In fact she taught that the Law in Galatians was only the ceremonial for 40+ years until she changed her mind and said it was both Laws, several years after 1888 Conf.
@dconklin58 "In dealing with matters of fundamental doctrine in our work, we found only one instance in which it seemed advisable to make a change, namely, in the teaching on the eternity of Christ. It is a matter of record that Uriah Smith once believed that Christ was a created being".M.THURBER, Sec.of "Daniel and the Revelation" Revision Committee
@BuckLakeBoy: ""In dealing with matters of fundamental doctrine in our work, we found only one instance in which it seemed advisable to make a change, namely, in the teaching on the eternity of Christ."
Your source failed to tell you that it is in a quote from W. E. Howell, from Octber 28, 1942 at the Cincinnati Autumn Council.
Such is an excellant example of the sloppy handiwork of the typical critic.
@dconklin58 ""Such is an excellant example of the sloppy handiwork of the typical critic.""....You are something else! I GAVE you the series of 3 SDA articles about Dan & Rev revision in total and the fact that they deleted his Arian beliefs in the mid 1940's and you quote the same stuff back to me as if you found it! By the way, Smith changed to believing that Jesus was CREATED a long time ago...that's still Arianism scholar??
@BuckLakeBoy: "I GAVE you the series of 3 SDA articles about Dan & Rev revision in total "
AFTER some prodding from me and one of the articles had nothing to do with the topic your brought up.
>Smith changed to believing that Jesus was CREATED a long time ago...that's still Arianism scholar??
That was a long time ago and he's been dead a long time. I don't know of any current theological scholar in the SDA church who cites him as an authority as to what we ought to believe.
@dconklin58 You have shown how you can twist facts. I did give you the ref's for all 3 articles discussing Daniel & Rev. revision in the mid 1940's so you could read the ENTIRE context but then you accuse me that some of the articles are not relevant to Arianism. I gave you the entire series so the context would be in tact but you can't even appreciate that fact. As for his book not being cited, then why does ABC online sell the teacher and student version today?
@dconklin58 You say " It was a long time ago and he's been dead a long time" What does that have to do with the fact that the church would not deal with it's own Arian beliefs a century after the founders banded together. A long time ago? I was an Adventist from the early fifties and the Arian-Trinitarian fight was as ugly as the fallout from the publishing of QOD. Afgter 100 years they still could not clear up a heresy that conservative SDA's clung to with tenacity.
@BuckLakeBoy: "What does that have to do with the fact that the church would not deal with it's own Arian beliefs a century after the founders banded together."
@dconklin58 You said the book Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith is basically irrelevant but Ellen White referenced his book for the end time chapters of the Great Controversy & you can look that up for yourself. The revision in the 40's was done because the book was needed (minus Arian views and some errors) for Bible study with non SDA's and as noted the Adventist Book Center online still sells the student and teacher version so SDA's are teaching their kids from irrelevant books?? Hardly.
@BuckLakeBoy: "You said the book Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith is basically irrelevant but Ellen White referenced his book for the end time chapters of the Great Controversy & you can look that up for yourself."
@dconklin58 You are living in a fantasy world. I gave you the ref's for the articles. YOU DID NOT PROD ME! You claim to be a scholar and you obviously had not even read them so I gave you the entire series of 3 articles so you could read them in their proper sequence. I did not claim they ALL spoke about Arian beliefs held by Smith but thought you would be interested in the entire topic of the revision of the book by Thurber. Obviously not!
@dconklin58 "You did not give the sources up front. In fact, you never gave me the page for the quotes you posted">>>>You poor thing! I was quite forthcoming about the quotes for the articles because the second one discussed the Arian deletion issue. Sorry I overloaded you by giving the first and third article in the series as well. I didn't give you page numbers..well shame on me...most people can find the articles when they have the magazine, year, date and issue provided for them.
@dconklin58 Do you still hold to the historic SDA belief that Christ is now cleansing the heavenly sanctuary of sins before His second coming and as in the OT ritual, the sins of mankind will be laid on Satan (scapegoat) before he is destroyed in the lake of fire?
@dconklin58 And after giving you all the data you needed to find the articles on the General Conference Archive website you complain because I didn't give you page numbers for each article featured in the April, May and June issues. BTW: Nice dodge on the scapegoat issue...
@BuckLakeBoy: Didn't need the june iissue as it wasn't related to the issue you brought up. One of the things you should have learned in school is to give the full source--that includes the page numbers of any quotes you bring up.
---
Only the critics would consider going by the bible to be a dodge.
@dconklin58 Still dodging re: SDA scapegoat (sanctuary) belief. SDA's claim Jesus cannot come until the Sanctuary in heaven has been cleansed of all sin..saints live with Jesus 1000 years & come back to earth to see the judgement of wicked & Satan who will have all sins placed upon him as in OT tradition. If sanctuary is cleansed when Jesus comes, where are the sins for the 1000 years before they are all placed upon Satan as the scapegoat?
@dconklin58 You didn't need the June issue?? The Dan & Rev book revision story was broken into 3 articles in 3 issues. Gave you all three so you could read the topic in it's full, unbroken context since it represented one document. Didn''t realize you would suffer info overload or that you couldn't navigate through your own church mags without page numbers. If I quote something to you again I'll give you the line numbers on the page as well. If spoon feeding is needed I'll provide the spoon.
@BuckLakeBoy: "It is a matter of record that Uriah Smith once believed that Christ was a created being."
The quote then gives the source to verify that claim. Then he continues (which was left out): "But later he revised his belief and teaching to the effect that Christ was begotten sometime back in eternity before the creation of the world." (to be cont'd)
Gladwell, Malcolm "Something Borrowed," The New Yorker (11/22/2004)
" Intellectual-property doctrine isn’t a straightforward application of the ethical principle “Thou shalt not steal.” At its core is the notion that there are certain situations where you can steal.... The final dishonesty of the plagiarism fundamentalists is to encourage us to pretend that these chains of influence and evolution do not exist, and that a writer's words have a virgin birth and an eternal life."
@dconklin58 __After portraying Walter Rea as an apostate traitor, in the March 20, 1980, Adventist Review Neal Wilson. SDA Gen. Conference President informed the church” The initial [Glendale] report indicates that "in her writing Ellen White used sources more extensively than we have heretofore been AWARE of, or RECOGNIZED."
@dconklin58 VELTMAN regarding study of EGW copying other authors for D of A, “I must admit at the start that in my judgment this is the most serious problem to be faced in connection with Ellen White's literary dependence. It strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and therefore her trustworthiness. As of now I do not have--nor, to my knowledge, does anyone else have--a satisfactory answer to this important question”. Veltmans research on just one book is online at GC Archives.
@dconklin58 " I note in my article in Plagiary (2008) ab't why it is flawed."__Robert Olson, then secretary of the White Estate asked by Ministry magazine if he was satisfied with Veltman's research: "I am totally satisfied with this study. NO ONEcould have done a BETTER job--NO ONE. He [Veltman] did it as a neutral person would have and not as an apologist." (Ministry, Dec. 1990, p. 16)___And yet you claim that your research supercedes your own church's investigation plus the EGW Estate?
@BuckLakeBoy: "And yet you claim that your research supercedes your own church's investigation plus the EGW Estate?"
Yes. The main flaw is that he has some sentences that he claim is dependent on others and there isn't a single significant word that is similiar to the source. If you'd read the original and not rely on what others say then you'd know that.
@dconklin58 "More from my biblio"...You still don't get the point. EGW SAID she did NOT copy. She said her words were her own unless given her by an angel in which case she always included quotes, indicating that she was fully aware that it was proper to quote sources. The Glendale Report, the official Veltman report, the EGW Estate all admit that she copied from other authors. When you say the words are your own and they are NOT it is a LIE!
@BuckLakeBoy: There's no evidence that she actually "copied." It was noted by a reporter for a newspaper in Ohio that she had a remarkable memory. Study up on crypotomnesia like I have.
@dconklin58 You still make EXCUSES for her borrowing, paraphrasing etc. I'VE TOLD YOU SEVERAL TIMES THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE WITH EGW. She personally declared that the content of her writings came as a prophet and the words employed were HER OWN, unless those of an Angel guide, in which case she enclosed the Angel dialogue in marks of quotation..her words, not mine! The fact is, the SDA church & her own Estate have freely admitted she used dozens of sources from other authors to write her books.
@BuckLakeBoy: "And yet you claim that your research supercedes your own church's investigation plus the EGW Estate?"
The second flaw come sin from his math (at least he provides his, the critics don't). If you have one word in 3 sentences that is the same out of ten sentences of ten words each--do you have 30% or only 3% that are the same? Dr. Veltman used the former. Remember my work was published in a scholarly, refereed journal. Dr. Veltman's wasn't, nor have the critics done so.
@BuckLakeBoy "and not a single one that says "only vegetarians will be saved."
___I didn't say that, BUT... SHE said that the final generation before Jesus comes WILL ALL BE VEGETARIANS! That means no exception and you have glossed over all her statements that those who are being sanctified and being made ready for immortality must be following her "health reform" which included vegetarianism, no pepper, vinegar, spicy food, coffee, tea, condiments of any kind and more!
Warren H. Johns and Tim Poirier "Henry Melvill and Ellen G. White: A Study of Literary and Theological Relationships," Ellen G. White Estate (May 1982): 98 pages.
"E.G. White’s Literary Work: An Update," Edited and Annotated Transcript. Ellen G. White Estate (Nov. 15-19, 1981).
"Did Ellen G. White "borrow" in reporting a vision?" Adventist Review (3/2/'81): 7.
@BuckyLakeBoy: "HOWEVER, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO READ YOUR OWN CHURCH'S ARCHIVES, REVIEW, SIGNS, MINISTRY MAGS, COMMISSIONED PAPERS BY ADVENTIST SCHOLARS, EGW ESTATE PUBLISHED PAPERS MOSTLY RELATED TO ADMITTING WHAT YOU HAVE DISPROVED."
Never claimed that either. Refutated in part from my bibliography:
Ron Graybill "The "I saw" parallels in Ellen White's writings," Adv. Rev. (6/29/'82): 4-6.
@dconklin58 "Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will EVENTUALLY be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view...". ( 9-T.p. 381) EGW also said, "If man will cherish the light that God in mercy gives him upon health reform, he MAY be SANCTIFIED through the truth, and FITTED for immortality. But if he disregards that light, and lives in violation of natural law, he must pay the PENALTY." D&F p. 70
@BuckLakeBoy: "even when I give SDA Gen. Conf. or EGW Estate documentation you deny your own SDA authoritative historians on SDA condoned websites because you don't like the content."
The critics claim that EGW was threatened with a lawsuit over her alleged plagiarism. Note that they never show you a copy of the letter making the threat. 2ndly, in her lifetime people were sued (successfully) for plagiarism. Why wasn't EGW sued? If someone stole from you would you let them off without proving it in a court of law? 3rd the claimants are playing a game with your head. In those days an author sold his mss to the publisher. The pub. held the copyright, not the author.
@dconklin58 " In those days...The pub. held the copyright, not the author".WRONG! U.S. Congress first exercised its power to enact copyright legislation with the Copyright Act of 1790. It secured an author the exclusive right to publish and vend books for a term of 14 years, with the right of renewal for one additional 14 year term if the author was still alive. The act did not regulate musical compositions or newspapers and did not prohibit copying the works of foreign authors.
@BuckLakeBoy: "WRONG! U.S. Congress first exercised its power to enact copyright legislation with the Copyright Act of 1790."
You are correct; I was thinking further back. My study started in the mid1700's and has been working forward. OTOH, when Mrs. E.D.E.N. Southworth discovered that one of her works had been plagiarized she went to her publisher and had him write to the offending publisher (Presbyterian Board of Directors) to get the work removed from circulation.
@dconklin58 " critics claim that EGW was threatened with a lawsuit over her alleged plagiarism"....I MADE NO SUCH CLAIM! The issue which I made before was not where or how she used other authors works and published their comments, extensive or minor, or if it was acceptable in her time; THE ISSUE IS THAT SHE CLAIMED ALL HER WRITINGS WERE HER OWN WORDS OR THAT OF AN ANGEL WHOSE REMARKS WERE ALWAYS ENCLOSED IN MARKS OF QUOTATION. If SHE had NOT made this CLAIM there would be no issue at all.
The critics are great at making claims. Always note the absence of proof. Some of their claims can be killed w/ as little as 5 minutes of work.
It is claimed that Fannie Bolton actually wrote Steps to Christ. Where's her hand written mss? Why was some of it written by EGW, some of it before FB had even been conceived, much less born?
Or, they claim that EGW plagiarized by paraphrasing. Sounds good. Where's the proof? Think back to when you were in grade school--what were you taught?
@dconklin58 "It is claimed that Fannie Bolton actually wrote Steps to Christ." ....I agree that some claims re: SDA's, are not substantiated with data of any authoritative substance. I have chosen to ignore those claims and only deal with what the SDA church has officially acknowledged as part of the history of the SDA church. You don't even want to recognize what the GC Headquarters and White Estate have been forced to admit and deal with. That puts you in a fringe element of SDA revisionists.
@BuckLakeBoy: "I agree that some claims re: SDA's, are not substantiated with data of any authoritative substance."
Kudos to you sir! You are the first critic who has had the gumption and fortitude to tell the truth about even one of the 80 lies that have been made against Ellen White.
>I have chosen to ignore those claims
I would too, they are too inconvenient to admit that they are lies.
@dconklin58 "Kudos to you sir! You are the first critic who has had the gumption and fortitude to tell the truth about even one of the 80 lies"....I do not believe in making criticisms which do not have an accurate historical basis. Some critics have made claims which are not fully proved....I agree! However, you will not even reasearch that which IS admitted by the SDA church. Your responses have shown a deep, personal desire to gloss over truth if it's uncomfortable for you.
@dconklin58 " However, you will not even reasearch that which IS admitted by the SDA church." YOU SAID, "I only have so many hours in the day". HOWEVER YOU CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT AT DEBUNKING THE CRITICS, SINGLE-HANDEDLY DISPROVING 80 CONTROVERTED CLAIMS. HOWEVER, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO READ YOUR OWN CHURCH'S ARCHIVES, REVIEW, SIGNS, MINISTRY MAGS, COMMISSIONED PAPERS BY ADVENTIST SCHOLARS, EGW ESTATE PUBLISHED PAPERS MOSTLY RELATED TO ADMITTING WHAT YOU HAVE DISPROVED.
@dconklin58 "Whoppers about EGW No. 1" Ellen White wrote a large number of early statments that unless meat eating etc, was given up, God could not sanctify a believer. If God cannot sanctify you unless you are vegetarian that presents a salvation problem but SHE indulged in or condoned meat eating long after her health reform 'vision' including consumption of squirrels, possums, venison, salmon, oysters and much more. She REVISED certain dogmatic health reform statements over the years.
@dconklin58 And not a single one that says "only vegetarinas will be saved." Hmmm, how about that". ----She claimed that the final generation would be totally vegetarian. But, by saying health reformers MAY be sanctified and FITTED for immortality she is de facto saying that those who DON"T embrace ALL health reform may NOT be Sanctified, may NOT be fitted for immortality which means you MAY not be fitted for heaven which means you don't go!
@dconklin58 You redirect and deflect.....I asked you how many of the letters, manuscripts, diary entries which are UNPUBLISHED that YOU were allowed to freely access and read? Quote from EGW Estate "the unpublished letters, manuscripts, and other materials in the Ellen G. White files do not constitute a public archive. The sacred nature of the files generally and the confidential nature of many of the communications in the files require that they be cared for and used responsibly." HOW MANY?
@BuckLakeBoy: "I asked you how many of the letters, manuscripts, diary entries which are UNPUBLISHED that YOU were allowed to freely access and read?"
I didn't count them; now my questions--which still go unanswered: how many did you read?
@dconklin58 "I didn't count them" You claim to have open access to the unpublished writings of EGW but after repeated requests from me as to how many full docs of any unpublished material you were allowed to freely access you still will not answer but rather deflect each time because you DID NOT read any. The EGW Estate militantly guards access to her unpublished works under the guise of confidentiality even from high level GC officers who must bow to their rules. You did not read any of them!
@BuckLakeBoy: "...you still will not answer but rather deflect each time because you DID NOT read any. "
I did read some of the files; I didn't count how many or w-of what type they were. I had no idea that 20 years later someone would be asking me how many private, confidential and personal letters i had read.
@dconklin58 "Why are the critics so afraid to give their sources?" I gave you a massive list of SDA scholar papers on the topic which not only had the articles by SDA's but the credentials of the writers on the topic of TRINITY at your own SDAnet but it seems you chose not to read all or even any of the papers on the widely known SDA fact which you choose to ignore rather than read about from your own trusted writers.
@dconklin58 "Why are the critics so afraid to give their sources?" I'm not afraid to give sources but THEYare afraid to be quoted, since they work for the denomination, not me. They can be discipled or fired...I can't! My EGW source, a close friend, is a direct descendent of EGW. His father has read a number of unpublished docs which will never be published due to their "insane content". You talk as if anyone can see the unpublished works and you know they can't....cont'd
@BuckLakeBoy: "Aside from SDAnet research papers, there are many more not on their website if you look!"
I'm not interested in that subject. I have found that the topic sheds more heat than light and I've already proven that the critics have lied at least 80 times.
@dconklin58 "I'm not interested in that subject. I have found that the topic sheds more heat than light " The topic was SDA anti-Trinitarian views and you are NOT interested in what your own church historians and authors have written shedding light on this heretical foundational belief of SDA church? You said you are not interested in the doctrine of the Trinity!! I believe that explains your belief system and mindset quite adequately.
@BuckLakeBoy: It is old, we don't believe that way. So why should I be interested in it? Perhaps you'd like to explain to everyone the debate in early Christianity between homoousios and homoiousios? Mind you its not a current debate, just like your wild claim that SDA's are anti-trinitarian.
@dconklin58 CONT"D..."The world, which is supposed to be benefited so much by phrenology and animal magnetism, never was so corrupt as now. Through these sciences, virtue is destroyed and the foundations of spiritualism are laid.--ST, Nov 6, 1884. (2SM 351-353.) {2MCP 712.1} While paying for her boys to have their heads read at one point she later declared phrenology "virtue destroying etc' But I already know the SDA excuse...the prophet wasn't doubletalking... just advancing in light.
@dconklin58 "Where's the proof for that claim? How much did she pay? "White took her two sons Edson & Willie to Dr. Jackson’s health reform institute in Dansville, New York for a phrenology reading—apparently as part of a complete medical examination (for which Dr. Jackson charged five dollars per reading). Ronald Numbers, Prophetess of Health New York: Harper & Row, 1976, 90-91.) Number’s book contains copies of the letter to the Lockwoods and a copy of Jackson’s “medical” report on Willie.
@BuckLakeBoy In 1834 the Supreme Court ruled in Wheaton v. Peters, a case similar to the British Donaldson v Beckett of 1774, that although the author of an unpublished work had a common law right to control the first publication of that work, the author did not have a common law right to control reproduction following the first publication of the work. COPYRIGHT LAW WAS IN EFFECT BUT THAT HAS NEVER BEEN AN ADVENTIST ISSUE RE: EGW USING OTHER AUTHORS EXTENSIVELY WHILE CLAIMING ORIGINALITY.
@dconklin58 ." Now why was that too hard to do upfront? Why do we have to ask for the most basic of information"?....You KNOW why. There is only a limited number of characters available per comment. This is not a blog it's restrictive. However, even when I give SDA Gen. Conf. or EGW Estate documentation you deny your own SDA authoritative historians on SDA condoned websites because you don't like the content.
> I asked you how many letters, dirary entries and manuscripts you read that were from the unpublished materials.
I didn't keep track while I was in the vault. How many did you read? Where's the proof that the branches don't have what is in the main vault? When we you in the main vault? Who told you that everything in the main isn't in the branches?
>You use the typical SDA tactic of "redirect" or "plausible diversion" so well.
I'm having a huge problem with this site (maybe my browser. So, I can't always get to your posts to answer them. Plus, we only have so many characters we can use.
My question to you: why do critics have to lie so much? I now have a list of 80 lies the critics have told. Some can be shown to vbe wrong in as little as 5 minutes of work. Which the critics never do.
@dconklin58 "You make claims and never give the proof?" "Undoubtedly, the main conduit of Arianism and anti-Trinitarianism into early Seventh-day Adventism was the Restorationist backgrounds of numerous Sabbatarian Adventist founding fathers (referred to as the "pioneers)." & "We have no record that they sat up one day and said: "This Arianism business is simply killing our people with legalistic attitudes that are bringing on a terrible spiritual condition in the church!" W Whidden-Andrews
@dconklin58 "Thus, the statement (Trinity) voted at Dallas in 1980 was the fourth fundamental beliefs statement of Seventh-day Adventists, but only the second to be officially voted by a General Conference session. The official adoption of the explicitly trinitarian Dallas statement might have been expected to bring closure to the century-old debate, but it proved to be a precursor of RENEWED tensions." Aside from SDAnet research papers, there are many more not on their website if you look!
EGW says, "In many cases I have advised out-of-door work for piano tuners, telling them that unless they changed their business, they would have to deal with insanity. We are made up of nerves and senses, as well as conscience and affections. All parts of the living machinery are to be wisely cared for and considerately treated. The Lord has respect for the body as well as the soul".--Letter 104, 1901.
@BuckLakeBoy it's all about principle. If you had read her work on health reform, she stated that real good reason for health reform is the principle of looking over your health because it's duty to God. Whether or not the piano tuners would have gone insane was a matter of her opinion. Her working principle is that outdoor work does well for overall health with fresh air and sunlight. To her, working only indoors ain't healthy.
@iMattCi89 I have been reading and compiling data regarding her published writing since 1965. The comment was tongue in cheek (EGW did not 'invent' balanced lifestyle) since all of the discussion developing from this video diverts away from the point of the enire purpose of the dialogue, both current and Martin's previous 1950's dialogue,...is the SDA church a cult or not.
@iMattCi89 It's a research fact not an opinion. EGW was a false prophet=cult. Already gave you two EGW Estate statements where they admit she stole material even for Testimonies for the Church-9 Volumes. Do a search for "The 'Sanctuary Doctrine' Asset or Liability' by Raymond F. Cottrell. Don't know who he is?..check Wikipedia & then read his article.
The God who gave the law of Moses to Israel is the same God who says in Jer 31:31-33 that He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. The new covenant now is the law of Christ 1 Cor 9:21. That law of Moses has already been changed by God Himself Heb 7:12. Christians who keeps on looking back in the law of Moses as for salvation is fallen from grace Gal 5:4. They might end up in hell.
Written as a personal message to me from @Lysimachus78
You can blame me all you want for buying into my "false prophet's lies", but just remember, you've got Ignatius Loyola on your side, whether you realize it or not. So you should have nothing to worry about. I guess we'll meet each other in hell-pit #666! XD See you there! ;)
So there you have it ... typical SDA sending people to hell because they won't agree with their bullshit ... that's the way to evangelize huh??? freak !!!
Bill Johnsson keeps saying he doesn't agree with the things written in the SDA Church Herald, but the point is, these things are being written and preached by people in the church, and nothing is being done to stop them.
@cornerstone111 Yes! nothing is done to stop the articles and books by SDA's attributing EGW as the only authority to infallibly interpret the Bible..true! But the writers are authors in high places of authority and they do get published with the blessing of the editors and the GC and the White Estate. No one can simply send in an article to Ministry or Review and have it auto published. It is scrutinized word by word before approval to publish.......
@cornerstone111 Continued: eg. The Ministry published a new statement on EGW's authority approved by Gen Conf, White Estate, in Feb. 83. By December of '83, Erwin Gane, religion teacher at Avondale, Union and Pacific Union colleges etc, had an article printed re: EGW which defies the new statement if both are read in comparison. Without this constant contradiction of yes-no, there would be a major split within the church and the leaders and editors know it only too well.
@cornerstone111 A friend who was asst. editor at Adventist Review during the 80's told me that the job was a constant conflict of conscience as articles deemed necessary to be published by upper level brass bypassed asst. editorial teams criticisms to the contrary. Martin said initially, before QOD, they had to wade through piles of contradictory doctrinal statements and articles. Nothing changed after QOD was published except the seizure of SDA high-power positions by ultra conservatives.
@dconklin58 The Asst. Editor works elsewhere now in the denomination and no you cannot have the name since that is how SDA workers get fired. Point...all prominent SDA pioneers were held to Arianism, that Jesus was a created being and not God. By 1945 Daniel & Revelation book was revised and deleted the Arian belief statements from the book. (The Ministry, May 1945) They did not replace it with a Trinitarian view but left it out altogether because the editors said they recognized.....
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IF DENOMINATIONS ARE RIGHT THEN MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. HOWEVER, IF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST IS RIGHT, AND IT IS, THOSE IN DENOMINATIONS HAVE MUCH TO FEAR.To be saved you must do ALL of God's word including: hear, believe, repent, confess be baptized then remain faithful til death. ONLY then will you be saved. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life".(Rev. 2:10) YOU will be held accountable so read the entire Bible for YOURself.
TerriTemple 4 days ago
Not to be misunderstood with an ad hominem, but Dr. Walter Martin seems kind of show off and rude, especially on his radio show. I'm not saying he is but it just seems like it. I mean, the other guys he has debated seem more understanding while he seems to criticize what is not true.
SuperHuevoRevuelto 2 weeks ago
Part 1- at 2:40 in the video he says 'No docterine of the SDA church was derived from EGW.' He may believe this although this is nothing but double speak or legalism from the SDA church. Take the seventh day for instance. The board or the counsel came to EGW with the Seventh Day docterine, EGW was against it. She then did a 360 on the topic through the spirit of prophecy and got the OK for it.
Shelter93 2 months ago
Part 2- So what this means is that no longer your faith in Christ is enough, but the day that you worship on becomes a requirement for salvation. Many SDA's would say that that proves that Mrs. EGW was wrong and the counsel or board was right. So now, who has the spirit of prophecy? The board and it's many members or Mrs. White?
Shelter93 2 months ago
Part 3-The point is that, NO the beliefs of SDA's don't originate with Mrs. White, BUT they are backed up by the spirit of prophecy through Mrs. White. So it is absolutely legalistic double speak to say that they did not originate with Mrs. White which is technically correct but then backed up by the spirit of prophecy. Can you see the circle?
Shelter93 2 months ago
Ellen g white is a false prophet she proved that by predicting the end of the world And saying Jesus did not have a body of flesh and blood at one stage. False prophets are proved by 1 wrong prophecy and if she had of been living in the old testament she would of been stoned to death. The sda movement is in fact a cult.
mamainmancj 3 months ago
@mamainmancj am looking for where it says it she did that can you help me
thereheis1000 2 months ago in playlist Another Christ: Seventh Day Adventism
Do not translate word by word in languages, but understand the concept. In Heb9:7-> Highpriest in Old Test. entered Holy of Holiest once a year; by comparaison, Heb9:12 stated Jesus, the new Highpriest, entered the Holy of Holiest once for all. Paul also uses the word "Hagia" to talks about the Holy place, and the Holy of Holiest, or the sanctuary as a whole in the book of Hebrews: chap8:2. chap9:2,8,12,24,25. chap10:19, chap13:11. The doctrine of 1844 is a false teaching, SDA need to repent
belojo2003 3 months ago
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Pearl Trees Of Life [a vast Bible Resource Site]:
[3 w dot] pearltrees [dot com] [forwardslash] awhn
Freely you have received, freely give...
AWHNNOH 3 months ago
I agree Dr Walter Martin has made a very serious mistake in stating that 'ta hagia' in Hebrews 9:12 means 'Most Holy Place'. It does not - for this reason: the only place in Hebrews where the writer unmistakably means Most Holy Place is Hebrews 9:3 where 'hagia hagion' is used, but this unique expression is not used in 9:12 - despite who various translations render it. The SDA position is correct. I am impressed at Dr Johnsson's gentle Christian witness.
herbkersten 4 months ago
I agree Dr Walter Martin has made a very serious mistake is stating that 'ta hagia' in Hebrews 9:12 means 'Most Holy Place'. It does not for this reason: the only place in Hebrews where the writer unmistakably means Most Holy Place is Hebrews 9:3 where 'hagia hagion' is used, but this unique expression is not used in 9:12 - despite who various translations render it. The SDA position is correct. I am impressed at Dr Johnsson's gentle Christian witness.
herbkersten 4 months ago
No mr. Martin you are wrong, the Greek text is right. It says "hagia" which the holy place. If it meant the most holy place it would read "hagia hagion". Your Greek professor needs to study more my language.
vassilischr 5 months ago 2
repent and trust in jesus alone and you will be saved youll be born again and become a new creation in christ and he will give you a new heart then the change will come natruly like a fly flys. ellen g white is an evil old bat from hell and shes bringing many to there eternal loss. come on 7th day we love yis but you cnt rely on ellen g white shes a lier and a joke nd yous are raped up in hard nose religon what jesus came to denounce!! call upon the lords name and you will be saved!!!!!!!
mamainmancj 7 months ago
Yep, Hebrews ch 9 speaks of the sanctuary - NOT the Most Holy Place.
lexscripta1 8 months ago
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Pearl Trees Of Life [a vast resource of evidence]:
[3w dot] pearltrees [dot com] [forwardslash] awhn
Final Events:
watch?v=D1lFYO5zE-c
[3w dot] halos [dot com]
[3w dot] orionfdn [dot org]
[3w dot] amazingfacts [dot org] or [dot tv]
[3w dot] amazingdiscoveries [dot org] or [dot tv]
AWHNNOH 8 months ago
SDAs are mean people, I didnot believe E.White's Phophecies. They jumped all over me & said: " You can blaspheme God, but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit, b/c if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you can never be saved" Was that terrible? Mean- Mean_Mean. I pray to God the Holy Spirit everyday for the day Christ will come again. He will judge the living & the dead. E. White will be embarrassed with her false prophecies
USVictory 1 year ago
@USVictory
They think she has the Spirit of prophecy so to reject her they feel is to reject the Spirit of prophecy, but you are right, she presumed to speak in the name of God and spoke falsehoods, thus we know we have nothing to fear from her.
Myhopeisinhim 1 year ago
and since Dr. Johnsson continually want to quote scripture he may want to read
Galatians 2:15-21, which the SDA church seems to have completely skipped.
hilltree402 1 year ago
Follow Jesus people and follow His words. The reformation wasn't perfect either. Calvinism can be refuted from scripture rather easily too yet many apologists hold to Calvin's teachings. There were true Christians before the Catholic Church even came into existence. Let's just read God's Word and follow it. Let Ellen G. White rest in peace. Go win some souls.
thesacredcowtipper 1 year ago
@thesacredcowtipper Amen
axe414 1 year ago
The church should be having a relationship with Jesus not ellen g white or William miller but Christ! Most Churches are started by individuals and these people have influence and power in the Churches while Christ becomes a footnote
smoothpianist 1 year ago
@smoothpianist: The church should be having a relationship with Jesus not ellen g white or William miller but Christ!"
It does. Read EGW's Step to Christ. William Miller is mentioned about as often as Martin Luther.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "I was quite forthcoming about the quotes for the articles because the second one discussed the Arian deletion issue."
Yes, you gave quotes. I didn't say that you didn't. I had to ask for the source.
>I didn't give you page numbers..well shame on me
Right. Shame on you.
>most people can find the articles when they have the magazine, year, date and issue provided for them.
Which you didn't do.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You still say I didn't give you the correct and exact info for the references but the following is copied and pasted from my previous post several weeks ago. ""General Conference Archives, 3 Article series: The Ministry Magazine, April, May, June 1945 by Merwin Thurber, Secretary; D & R Revision Committee".
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: If you had given me all that info at one swoop , upfront, I wouldn't have to ask for it.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "I was quite forthcoming about the quotes for the articles because the second one discussed the Arian deletion issue."
Yes, you gave quotes. I didn't say that you didn't. I had to ask for the source.
dconklin58 1 year ago
From the White Estate:
The White Estate has 18 or more centers around the world where all of its documents can be researched & read. Further, we are already embarked on the process of pub. her entire letter & mss file. It will be done w/out any redactions, but it will include annotations that should help the reader understand, ... who the people are that are being written to & about, & what the sit. may have been that Mrs. White was addressing." The 1st vol. should be out next yr."
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 Ellen White also ate squirrel, possum and wild ducks that her son Willie shot. That is not a critics claim. This is SDA fact if you only bothered yourself to read any of her books and letters.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "Ellen White also ate squirrel, possum and wild ducks that her son Willie shot. That is not a critics claim."
Must be--you're making it here and you're the first one to mention it. No source is given for it, as usual. BTW, "possoum" isn't in her writings. "Squirrel" is--but she didn't eat it and nothing about Willie doing the shotting. BTW, ducks are clean to eat.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You claim to be an SDA scholar and since you twist facts when I give you sources from your own publications I will not give any. You seem to be too lazy to look deeply into any topic. That's the problem with SDA's who won't research for themselves...they read only what is convenient. Since her own writings deal with her eating squirrel, possum, wild duck, oysters and herring go search a little deeper.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "Since her own writings deal with her eating squirrel, possum, wild duck, oysters and herring go search a little deeper."
Herring and duck are clean. She said nothing about possum. You lied when you claimed that she ate squirrel and that it was Willie who shot them.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "That's another lie. I've never claimed any such thing."...Sorry, I thought you were an SDA scholar! I got that from your posts. You have proven the Veltman report, accepted by the GC and the White Estate, is in error. You have personally debunked over 80 "whoppers" about EGW. You claim to have had access to her unpublished works. I made a TERRIBLE mistake believing you were a scholar and I apologize!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@dconklin58 " You lied when you claimed that she ate squirrel and that it was Willie who shot them."....When Ellen and James were en route by horse and carriage they found themselves hungry and between rest stops in the countryside. James shot a possum, cleaned and cooked it for them and she gave thanks to God for providing for them. SHE said it. Don't blame me for something Ellen White said!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "You claim to be an SDA scholar "
That's another lie. I've never claimed any such thing.
dconklin58 1 year ago
(Quote cont'd):
"Since his day, later books of the Spirit of Prophecy, such as Desire of Ages, came out in the ninties and later on, making clear with the support of the Scriptures that Christ is coeternal with the Father." (sources given).
Later in the quote and article it notes that there was some difference of opinion, and that the committee thought it "wise to omit this teaching [by Smith] without comment" ... "and leave the matter open for all to study without let or hindrance."
dconklin58 1 year ago
More whoppers:
78. "Did you know Ellen ate oysters well after telling her flock about unclean foods?"
Never happened.
57. EGW said that "The salvation of GOD is for SDA ONLY!"
58. "Ellen White which is needed for salvation as the gift of prophecy."
59. "EGW SAID ALL CHILDREN BORN AFTER 1844 ARE CONTROLED BY SATAN!"
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "Mary, if you can get me a good box of herrings - fresh ones - please do so. These last ones that Willie got are bitter and old. If you can buy cans, say (a) half dozen cans of good tomatoes, please do so. We shall need them. If you can get a few cans of good oysters, get them". E.G. White, Letter 16, 1882
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy; Context: "THERE IS HOWEVER, EVIDENCE THAT AT ONE POINT IN HER LIFE MRS. WHITE MOST LIKELY ATE SOME OYSTERS. "
dconklin58 1 year ago
Whoppers (note that BuckLakeBoy admitted one was a lie, but he hasn't done that with any since):
"E. G. White prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851: "Now time is almost finished,(1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." EARLY WRITINGS p. 57 (Bogus quote)
"She did the same thing when she talked to her dead HUSBAND when she needed advice on her problems"
"EGW said that non-adventists cannot be saved."
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "You still make EXCUSES for her borrowing, paraphrasing etc."
I haven't made any excuse. Unless the fact, that paraphrasing is a legitimate literary activity bothers you. My problem lies with outright lies: EGW stole "80-90% (and possibly much more)."
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "The very men whom Saul had purposed to destroy WERE TO BE HIS INSTRUCTORS in the religion he had despised and persecuted...Saul becomes a LEARNER of the DISCIPLES"."
Wow, you can quote from a book. Now tell us: why it is a whopper?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: " The Ministry Magazine, April, May, June 1945 by Merwin Thurber, Secretary; D & R Revision Committee. "
I have printed and scanned through all 3 issues. I failed to see the word "Arian" in any of them and the article in the June issue had nothing to do with theology, but the charge of plagiarism--thank you for another item in my bibliography (brings it up to 718 I believe).
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "More whoppers"___Sketches From The Life of Paul by Ellen G. White Chap. 2:
"Jesus sends the inquiring Jew [Paul]to his Church, to OBTAIN FROM THEM a knowledge of his duty...and now the penitent[Paul]was in a condition to learn of those whom God had ordained to teach his truth. The very men whom Saul had purposed to destroy WERE TO BE HIS INSTRUCTORS in the religion he had despised and persecuted...Saul becomes a LEARNER of the DISCIPLES".
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@dconklin58 THE ADVENTIST TRINITY DEBATE By Jerry A. Moon, Ph.D., Andrews Uni, How clear views of Jesus developed in the Adventist Church by G. Valentine, The Arian or Anti-Trinitarian Views Presented in SDA Literature & the E.G. White Answer by E. Gane, Heresy or Hopeful Sign? Early Adventists' Struggle with the Truth about the Trinity by Jerry Moon, Arianism, Adventism and Methodism:The Healing of Trinitarian Teaching and Soteriology by W.Whidden, PhD., Prof, Andrews
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "THE ADVENTIST TRINITY DEBATE"
Others have dealt with it; I don't need to.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58
"later he revised his belief & teaching to the effect that Christ was begotten sometime back in eternity before the creation of the world.Since his day,later books of the Spirit of prophecy, such as D of A, came out in the nineties...making clear..that Christ is coeternal with the Father.Since there is some difference of view among us on this point, it seemed..wise to omit this teaching without comment".M.THURBER, Sec.of "Daniel and the Revelation" Revision Committee
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: wise to omit this teaching without comment".M.THURBER, Sec.of "
Part and parcel of giving a quote is to say where it came from--i.e., what page number. I always wonder why the critics can't do that. Then I find that the quote was made up.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "I have printed and scanned through all 3 issues. I failed to see the word "Arian" in any of them and the article in the June issue had nothing to do with theology"___Duh! I You want ref's so I gave you all 3 articles regarding expunging Urtiah Smith's Arian views in Daniel & Revelation and you complain you got TOO MUCH. The article in question is quoted below and you don't recognize the content because you did not find the word Arian. You can lead a horse to water.....
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "You want ref's so I gave you all 3 articles regarding expunging Urtiah Smith's Arian views in Daniel & Revelation and you complain you got TOO MUCH."
No, the problem is that one has noithing to do with any theological problems and you FAILED to give the exact page on which the alleged quote was on. If you wish to continue to lie ab't me we're done.
dconklin58 1 year ago
More whoppers:
18. That she asked Washburn and Crisler to undertake a research of the Life of Christ and then appropriated it and published it as Desire of Ages.
19. That she contradicted Scripture (53, or 75, or "much more than 75") times.
20. That she contradicted herself.
21. That she predicted that England would enter into the American Civil War.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "More whoppers"___Gal.1:.."the gospel I preached ...I DID NOT receive it from ANY man, NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ....But when God, who set me apart from birth...was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I DID NOT consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@dconklin58 "More whoppers;19. That she contradicted Scripture" Ellen White did contradict scripture! She wrote incorrectly about Paul and where he received his tutoring from, she placed the tower of Babel before AND after the flood, she placed conception of the plan of salvation AFTER man sinned [Patriarchs & Prophets] In fact she taught that the Law in Galatians was only the ceremonial for 40+ years until she changed her mind and said it was both Laws, several years after 1888 Conf.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@dconklin58 Our committee had no thought of making a pronouncement
on the doctrine for the denomination. But knowing
there are some differences of view among us, it was
our judgment that it would be better to omit the subject
altogether from the book, without comment, and leave
the matter open for all to study without let or hindrance."M.THURBER, Sec.of "Daniel and the Revelation" Revision Committee
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "In dealing with matters of fundamental doctrine in our work, we found only one instance in which it seemed advisable to make a change, namely, in the teaching on the eternity of Christ. It is a matter of record that Uriah Smith once believed that Christ was a created being".M.THURBER, Sec.of "Daniel and the Revelation" Revision Committee
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: ""In dealing with matters of fundamental doctrine in our work, we found only one instance in which it seemed advisable to make a change, namely, in the teaching on the eternity of Christ."
Your source failed to tell you that it is in a quote from W. E. Howell, from Octber 28, 1942 at the Cincinnati Autumn Council.
Such is an excellant example of the sloppy handiwork of the typical critic.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 ""Such is an excellant example of the sloppy handiwork of the typical critic.""....You are something else! I GAVE you the series of 3 SDA articles about Dan & Rev revision in total and the fact that they deleted his Arian beliefs in the mid 1940's and you quote the same stuff back to me as if you found it! By the way, Smith changed to believing that Jesus was CREATED a long time ago...that's still Arianism scholar??
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "I GAVE you the series of 3 SDA articles about Dan & Rev revision in total "
AFTER some prodding from me and one of the articles had nothing to do with the topic your brought up.
>Smith changed to believing that Jesus was CREATED a long time ago...that's still Arianism scholar??
That was a long time ago and he's been dead a long time. I don't know of any current theological scholar in the SDA church who cites him as an authority as to what we ought to believe.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You have shown how you can twist facts. I did give you the ref's for all 3 articles discussing Daniel & Rev. revision in the mid 1940's so you could read the ENTIRE context but then you accuse me that some of the articles are not relevant to Arianism. I gave you the entire series so the context would be in tact but you can't even appreciate that fact. As for his book not being cited, then why does ABC online sell the teacher and student version today?
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "I did give you the ref's for all 3 articles discussing Daniel & Rev. revision in the mid 1940's so you could read the ENTIRE context"
After some prodding. And if you had actually read the articles for yourself you would have seen that only two pertained to your subject.
>then you accuse me that some of the articles are not relevant to Arianism.
Correct. One is about plagiarism and none of them are explicitly about Arianism.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You say " It was a long time ago and he's been dead a long time" What does that have to do with the fact that the church would not deal with it's own Arian beliefs a century after the founders banded together. A long time ago? I was an Adventist from the early fifties and the Arian-Trinitarian fight was as ugly as the fallout from the publishing of QOD. Afgter 100 years they still could not clear up a heresy that conservative SDA's clung to with tenacity.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "What does that have to do with the fact that the church would not deal with it's own Arian beliefs a century after the founders banded together."
Its not taught now.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You said the book Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith is basically irrelevant but Ellen White referenced his book for the end time chapters of the Great Controversy & you can look that up for yourself. The revision in the 40's was done because the book was needed (minus Arian views and some errors) for Bible study with non SDA's and as noted the Adventist Book Center online still sells the student and teacher version so SDA's are teaching their kids from irrelevant books?? Hardly.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "You said the book Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith is basically irrelevant but Ellen White referenced his book for the end time chapters of the Great Controversy & you can look that up for yourself."
Not for his theology on the nature of Christ.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You are living in a fantasy world. I gave you the ref's for the articles. YOU DID NOT PROD ME! You claim to be a scholar and you obviously had not even read them so I gave you the entire series of 3 articles so you could read them in their proper sequence. I did not claim they ALL spoke about Arian beliefs held by Smith but thought you would be interested in the entire topic of the revision of the book by Thurber. Obviously not!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "I gave you the ref's for the articles. YOU DID NOT PROD ME! "
You did not give the sources up front. In fact, you never gave me the page for the quotes you posted.
>I gave you the entire series of 3 articles so you could read them in their proper sequence.
The last one was completetly irrelevant.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "You did not give the sources up front. In fact, you never gave me the page for the quotes you posted">>>>You poor thing! I was quite forthcoming about the quotes for the articles because the second one discussed the Arian deletion issue. Sorry I overloaded you by giving the first and third article in the series as well. I didn't give you page numbers..well shame on me...most people can find the articles when they have the magazine, year, date and issue provided for them.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "I was quite forthcoming about the quotes for the articles because the second one discussed the Arian deletion issue."
Yes, you gave quotes. I didn't say that you didn't. I had to ask for the source.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 Do you still hold to the historic SDA belief that Christ is now cleansing the heavenly sanctuary of sins before His second coming and as in the OT ritual, the sins of mankind will be laid on Satan (scapegoat) before he is destroyed in the lake of fire?
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: I go by what the Bible says. What do you do? Besides reading things that don't exist?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 And after giving you all the data you needed to find the articles on the General Conference Archive website you complain because I didn't give you page numbers for each article featured in the April, May and June issues. BTW: Nice dodge on the scapegoat issue...
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: Didn't need the june iissue as it wasn't related to the issue you brought up. One of the things you should have learned in school is to give the full source--that includes the page numbers of any quotes you bring up.
---
Only the critics would consider going by the bible to be a dodge.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 Still dodging re: SDA scapegoat (sanctuary) belief. SDA's claim Jesus cannot come until the Sanctuary in heaven has been cleansed of all sin..saints live with Jesus 1000 years & come back to earth to see the judgement of wicked & Satan who will have all sins placed upon him as in OT tradition. If sanctuary is cleansed when Jesus comes, where are the sins for the 1000 years before they are all placed upon Satan as the scapegoat?
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "until the Sanctuary in heaven has been cleansed of all sin"
That's not an SDA teaching.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You didn't need the June issue?? The Dan & Rev book revision story was broken into 3 articles in 3 issues. Gave you all three so you could read the topic in it's full, unbroken context since it represented one document. Didn''t realize you would suffer info overload or that you couldn't navigate through your own church mags without page numbers. If I quote something to you again I'll give you the line numbers on the page as well. If spoon feeding is needed I'll provide the spoon.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "You didn't need the June issue??"
Correct, the June wasn't directly related to the issue that you brought up.
>Gave you all three
Actually, I pried it out of you.
>If I quote something to you again I'll give you the line numbers on the page as well.
You are always supposed to give the page numbers when citing something. If you gave which column and/or paragraph that speeds up the search as well.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: " I did not claim they ALL spoke about Arian beliefs held by Smith "
Your statement "then you accuse me that some of the articles are not relevant to Arianism" implies that all 3 are relevant to that subject.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "It is a matter of record that Uriah Smith once believed that Christ was a created being."
The quote then gives the source to verify that claim. Then he continues (which was left out): "But later he revised his belief and teaching to the effect that Christ was begotten sometime back in eternity before the creation of the world." (to be cont'd)
dconklin58 1 year ago
Gladwell, Malcolm "Something Borrowed," The New Yorker (11/22/2004)
" Intellectual-property doctrine isn’t a straightforward application of the ethical principle “Thou shalt not steal.” At its core is the notion that there are certain situations where you can steal.... The final dishonesty of the plagiarism fundamentalists is to encourage us to pretend that these chains of influence and evolution do not exist, and that a writer's words have a virgin birth and an eternal life."
dconklin58 1 year ago
More from my biblio (Graybill):
"Ellen White as a Reader and a Writer," Insight (May 19, 1981): 8-10.
_______ "How Did Ellen White Chose and Use Historical Sources? The French Revolution Chapter of The Great Controversy," 4/3 Spectrum (1972):
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 __After portraying Walter Rea as an apostate traitor, in the March 20, 1980, Adventist Review Neal Wilson. SDA Gen. Conference President informed the church” The initial [Glendale] report indicates that "in her writing Ellen White used sources more extensively than we have heretofore been AWARE of, or RECOGNIZED."
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: ""in her writing Ellen White used sources more extensively than we have heretofore been AWARE of, or RECOGNIZED."
True. But, significantly not the 80-90% that Rea claimed.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 VELTMAN regarding study of EGW copying other authors for D of A, “I must admit at the start that in my judgment this is the most serious problem to be faced in connection with Ellen White's literary dependence. It strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and therefore her trustworthiness. As of now I do not have--nor, to my knowledge, does anyone else have--a satisfactory answer to this important question”. Veltmans research on just one book is online at GC Archives.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "Veltmans research on just one book is online at GC Archives."
I am one of the few who has dl'd, printed and read his work. I note in my article in Plagiary (2008) ab't why it is flawed.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 " I note in my article in Plagiary (2008) ab't why it is flawed."__Robert Olson, then secretary of the White Estate asked by Ministry magazine if he was satisfied with Veltman's research: "I am totally satisfied with this study. NO ONEcould have done a BETTER job--NO ONE. He [Veltman] did it as a neutral person would have and not as an apologist." (Ministry, Dec. 1990, p. 16)___And yet you claim that your research supercedes your own church's investigation plus the EGW Estate?
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "And yet you claim that your research supercedes your own church's investigation plus the EGW Estate?"
Yes. The main flaw is that he has some sentences that he claim is dependent on others and there isn't a single significant word that is similiar to the source. If you'd read the original and not rely on what others say then you'd know that.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "More from my biblio"...You still don't get the point. EGW SAID she did NOT copy. She said her words were her own unless given her by an angel in which case she always included quotes, indicating that she was fully aware that it was proper to quote sources. The Glendale Report, the official Veltman report, the EGW Estate all admit that she copied from other authors. When you say the words are your own and they are NOT it is a LIE!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: There's no evidence that she actually "copied." It was noted by a reporter for a newspaper in Ohio that she had a remarkable memory. Study up on crypotomnesia like I have.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You still make EXCUSES for her borrowing, paraphrasing etc. I'VE TOLD YOU SEVERAL TIMES THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE WITH EGW. She personally declared that the content of her writings came as a prophet and the words employed were HER OWN, unless those of an Angel guide, in which case she enclosed the Angel dialogue in marks of quotation..her words, not mine! The fact is, the SDA church & her own Estate have freely admitted she used dozens of sources from other authors to write her books.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "And yet you claim that your research supercedes your own church's investigation plus the EGW Estate?"
The second flaw come sin from his math (at least he provides his, the critics don't). If you have one word in 3 sentences that is the same out of ten sentences of ten words each--do you have 30% or only 3% that are the same? Dr. Veltman used the former. Remember my work was published in a scholarly, refereed journal. Dr. Veltman's wasn't, nor have the critics done so.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy "and not a single one that says "only vegetarians will be saved."
___I didn't say that, BUT... SHE said that the final generation before Jesus comes WILL ALL BE VEGETARIANS! That means no exception and you have glossed over all her statements that those who are being sanctified and being made ready for immortality must be following her "health reform" which included vegetarianism, no pepper, vinegar, spicy food, coffee, tea, condiments of any kind and more!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy:@BuckLakeBoy "and not a single one that says "only vegetarians will be saved."
___I didn't say that,
I didn't say that you did--that's a red-herring argument. Some other critic claimed the whopper.
dconklin58 1 year ago
More from my biblio (Graybill):
Warren H. Johns and Tim Poirier "Henry Melvill and Ellen G. White: A Study of Literary and Theological Relationships," Ellen G. White Estate (May 1982): 98 pages.
"E.G. White’s Literary Work: An Update," Edited and Annotated Transcript. Ellen G. White Estate (Nov. 15-19, 1981).
"Did Ellen G. White "borrow" in reporting a vision?" Adventist Review (3/2/'81): 7.
dconklin58 1 year ago
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@BuckyLakeBoy: "HOWEVER, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO READ YOUR OWN CHURCH'S ARCHIVES, REVIEW, SIGNS, MINISTRY MAGS, COMMISSIONED PAPERS BY ADVENTIST SCHOLARS, EGW ESTATE PUBLISHED PAPERS MOSTLY RELATED TO ADMITTING WHAT YOU HAVE DISPROVED."
Never claimed that either. Refutated in part from my bibliography:
Ron Graybill "The "I saw" parallels in Ellen White's writings," Adv. Rev. (6/29/'82): 4-6.
dconklin58 1 year ago
More whoppers ab't EGW:
11. That she said only vegetarians will be saved.
12. That she said only sabbatarians will be saved.
14. That an entire chapter of Sketches from the Life of Paul was "taken entirely" from a sermon by Melvill.
15. That the claim that "there is no point in the entire chapter that had not already come to Mevill before" her.
16. That she saw people on Jupiter.
17. That she made repeated claims that Jesus was coming in specific years.
Why lies so much?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will EVENTUALLY be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view...". ( 9-T.p. 381) EGW also said, "If man will cherish the light that God in mercy gives him upon health reform, he MAY be SANCTIFIED through the truth, and FITTED for immortality. But if he disregards that light, and lives in violation of natural law, he must pay the PENALTY." D&F p. 70
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "even when I give SDA Gen. Conf. or EGW Estate documentation you deny your own SDA authoritative historians on SDA condoned websites because you don't like the content."
Proof please.
dconklin58 1 year ago
The critics claim that EGW was threatened with a lawsuit over her alleged plagiarism. Note that they never show you a copy of the letter making the threat. 2ndly, in her lifetime people were sued (successfully) for plagiarism. Why wasn't EGW sued? If someone stole from you would you let them off without proving it in a court of law? 3rd the claimants are playing a game with your head. In those days an author sold his mss to the publisher. The pub. held the copyright, not the author.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 " In those days...The pub. held the copyright, not the author".WRONG! U.S. Congress first exercised its power to enact copyright legislation with the Copyright Act of 1790. It secured an author the exclusive right to publish and vend books for a term of 14 years, with the right of renewal for one additional 14 year term if the author was still alive. The act did not regulate musical compositions or newspapers and did not prohibit copying the works of foreign authors.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "WRONG! U.S. Congress first exercised its power to enact copyright legislation with the Copyright Act of 1790."
You are correct; I was thinking further back. My study started in the mid1700's and has been working forward. OTOH, when Mrs. E.D.E.N. Southworth discovered that one of her works had been plagiarized she went to her publisher and had him write to the offending publisher (Presbyterian Board of Directors) to get the work removed from circulation.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 " critics claim that EGW was threatened with a lawsuit over her alleged plagiarism"....I MADE NO SUCH CLAIM! The issue which I made before was not where or how she used other authors works and published their comments, extensive or minor, or if it was acceptable in her time; THE ISSUE IS THAT SHE CLAIMED ALL HER WRITINGS WERE HER OWN WORDS OR THAT OF AN ANGEL WHOSE REMARKS WERE ALWAYS ENCLOSED IN MARKS OF QUOTATION. If SHE had NOT made this CLAIM there would be no issue at all.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "I MADE NO SUCH CLAIM!"
I didn't say that you did.
Your reading of her words is too literal.
dconklin58 1 year ago
The critics are great at making claims. Always note the absence of proof. Some of their claims can be killed w/ as little as 5 minutes of work.
It is claimed that Fannie Bolton actually wrote Steps to Christ. Where's her hand written mss? Why was some of it written by EGW, some of it before FB had even been conceived, much less born?
Or, they claim that EGW plagiarized by paraphrasing. Sounds good. Where's the proof? Think back to when you were in grade school--what were you taught?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "It is claimed that Fannie Bolton actually wrote Steps to Christ." ....I agree that some claims re: SDA's, are not substantiated with data of any authoritative substance. I have chosen to ignore those claims and only deal with what the SDA church has officially acknowledged as part of the history of the SDA church. You don't even want to recognize what the GC Headquarters and White Estate have been forced to admit and deal with. That puts you in a fringe element of SDA revisionists.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "I agree that some claims re: SDA's, are not substantiated with data of any authoritative substance."
Kudos to you sir! You are the first critic who has had the gumption and fortitude to tell the truth about even one of the 80 lies that have been made against Ellen White.
>I have chosen to ignore those claims
I would too, they are too inconvenient to admit that they are lies.
dconklin58 1 year ago
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@dconklin58 "Kudos to you sir! You are the first critic who has had the gumption and fortitude to tell the truth about even one of the 80 lies"....I do not believe in making criticisms which do not have an accurate historical basis. Some critics have made claims which are not fully proved....I agree! However, you will not even reasearch that which IS admitted by the SDA church. Your responses have shown a deep, personal desire to gloss over truth if it's uncomfortable for you.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: " However, you will not even reasearch that which IS admitted by the SDA church."
I only have so many hours in the day.
>Your responses have shown a deep, personal desire to gloss over truth if it's uncomfortable for you.
Answered above. Why tell such a lie about another?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 " However, you will not even reasearch that which IS admitted by the SDA church." YOU SAID, "I only have so many hours in the day". HOWEVER YOU CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT AT DEBUNKING THE CRITICS, SINGLE-HANDEDLY DISPROVING 80 CONTROVERTED CLAIMS. HOWEVER, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO READ YOUR OWN CHURCH'S ARCHIVES, REVIEW, SIGNS, MINISTRY MAGS, COMMISSIONED PAPERS BY ADVENTIST SCHOLARS, EGW ESTATE PUBLISHED PAPERS MOSTLY RELATED TO ADMITTING WHAT YOU HAVE DISPROVED.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "HOWEVER YOU CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT AT DEBUNKING THE CRITICS, "
Hmmm, I've never claimed that. I have over time spotted some 80 whoppers, but that's about it.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "Whoppers about EGW No. 1" Ellen White wrote a large number of early statments that unless meat eating etc, was given up, God could not sanctify a believer. If God cannot sanctify you unless you are vegetarian that presents a salvation problem but SHE indulged in or condoned meat eating long after her health reform 'vision' including consumption of squirrels, possums, venison, salmon, oysters and much more. She REVISED certain dogmatic health reform statements over the years.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy:
And not a single one that says "only vegetarinas will be saved." Hmmm, how about that.
dconklin58 1 year ago
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@dconklin58 And not a single one that says "only vegetarinas will be saved." Hmmm, how about that". ----She claimed that the final generation would be totally vegetarian. But, by saying health reformers MAY be sanctified and FITTED for immortality she is de facto saying that those who DON"T embrace ALL health reform may NOT be Sanctified, may NOT be fitted for immortality which means you MAY not be fitted for heaven which means you don't go!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: As I said before: and not a single one that says "only vegetarians will be saved."
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "They lied about the Joseph Bates letter for nearly a century and even denied it's existence until it was "outed"
Love the bobbing and weaving and making new claims--ALL with no proof.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "... even from high level GC officers who must bow to their rules. You did not read any of them!"
You have no proof of either claim.
dconklin58 1 year ago
>His father has read a number of unpublished docs which will never be published due to their "insane content".
Hear-say and third-hand! Great source!
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 You redirect and deflect.....I asked you how many of the letters, manuscripts, diary entries which are UNPUBLISHED that YOU were allowed to freely access and read? Quote from EGW Estate "the unpublished letters, manuscripts, and other materials in the Ellen G. White files do not constitute a public archive. The sacred nature of the files generally and the confidential nature of many of the communications in the files require that they be cared for and used responsibly." HOW MANY?
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "I asked you how many of the letters, manuscripts, diary entries which are UNPUBLISHED that YOU were allowed to freely access and read?"
I didn't count them; now my questions--which still go unanswered: how many did you read?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "I didn't count them" You claim to have open access to the unpublished writings of EGW but after repeated requests from me as to how many full docs of any unpublished material you were allowed to freely access you still will not answer but rather deflect each time because you DID NOT read any. The EGW Estate militantly guards access to her unpublished works under the guise of confidentiality even from high level GC officers who must bow to their rules. You did not read any of them!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "...you still will not answer but rather deflect each time because you DID NOT read any. "
I did read some of the files; I didn't count how many or w-of what type they were. I had no idea that 20 years later someone would be asking me how many private, confidential and personal letters i had read.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "You redirect and deflect....."
I just checked; I explicitly answered your question yesterday. Its not me that is doing the "redirect and deflect."
dconklin58 1 year ago
>My faculty source at Andrews O.T. theology dept.
Unnamed. can't be checked. Why are the critics so afraid to give their sources?
dconklin58 1 year ago
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@dconklin58 "Why are the critics so afraid to give their sources?" I gave you a massive list of SDA scholar papers on the topic which not only had the articles by SDA's but the credentials of the writers on the topic of TRINITY at your own SDAnet but it seems you chose not to read all or even any of the papers on the widely known SDA fact which you choose to ignore rather than read about from your own trusted writers.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "Why are the critics so afraid to give their sources?" I'm not afraid to give sources but THEYare afraid to be quoted, since they work for the denomination, not me. They can be discipled or fired...I can't! My EGW source, a close friend, is a direct descendent of EGW. His father has read a number of unpublished docs which will never be published due to their "insane content". You talk as if anyone can see the unpublished works and you know they can't....cont'd
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "My EGW source, a close friend, is a direct descendent of EGW."
Still unnamed and so can't be verified. Secondly, Bible-believing Christians, since Paul, don't care about pedigree.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "Aside from SDAnet research papers, there are many more not on their website if you look!"
I'm not interested in that subject. I have found that the topic sheds more heat than light and I've already proven that the critics have lied at least 80 times.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "I'm not interested in that subject. I have found that the topic sheds more heat than light " The topic was SDA anti-Trinitarian views and you are NOT interested in what your own church historians and authors have written shedding light on this heretical foundational belief of SDA church? You said you are not interested in the doctrine of the Trinity!! I believe that explains your belief system and mindset quite adequately.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: It is old, we don't believe that way. So why should I be interested in it? Perhaps you'd like to explain to everyone the debate in early Christianity between homoousios and homoiousios? Mind you its not a current debate, just like your wild claim that SDA's are anti-trinitarian.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 CONT"D..."The world, which is supposed to be benefited so much by phrenology and animal magnetism, never was so corrupt as now. Through these sciences, virtue is destroyed and the foundations of spiritualism are laid.--ST, Nov 6, 1884. (2SM 351-353.) {2MCP 712.1} While paying for her boys to have their heads read at one point she later declared phrenology "virtue destroying etc' But I already know the SDA excuse...the prophet wasn't doubletalking... just advancing in light.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "While paying for her boys to have their heads read "
Where's the proof for that claim? How much did she pay?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "Where's the proof for that claim? How much did she pay? "White took her two sons Edson & Willie to Dr. Jackson’s health reform institute in Dansville, New York for a phrenology reading—apparently as part of a complete medical examination (for which Dr. Jackson charged five dollars per reading). Ronald Numbers, Prophetess of Health New York: Harper & Row, 1976, 90-91.) Number’s book contains copies of the letter to the Lockwoods and a copy of Jackson’s “medical” report on Willie.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy In 1834 the Supreme Court ruled in Wheaton v. Peters, a case similar to the British Donaldson v Beckett of 1774, that although the author of an unpublished work had a common law right to control the first publication of that work, the author did not have a common law right to control reproduction following the first publication of the work. COPYRIGHT LAW WAS IN EFFECT BUT THAT HAS NEVER BEEN AN ADVENTIST ISSUE RE: EGW USING OTHER AUTHORS EXTENSIVELY WHILE CLAIMING ORIGINALITY.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "EGW USING OTHER AUTHORS EXTENSIVELY WHILE CLAIMING ORIGINALITY.
1) There's no proof that EGW used other writers "extensively."
2) Fair use is considered to be around 10%; EGW's "literary similarity" (not proven to be copied) is around 3%.
3) Originality is irrelevant; even the Bible writers borrowed material from other sources.
dconklin58 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: " In 1834 the Supreme Court ruled in Wheaton v. Peters, "
That case has nothing to do with who owns the copyright.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: "Ronald Numbers, Prophetess of Health New York: Harper & Row, 1976, 90-91.)"
Very good. Now why was that too hard to do upfront? Why do we have to ask for the most basic of information?
dconklin58 1 year ago
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@dconklin58 ." Now why was that too hard to do upfront? Why do we have to ask for the most basic of information"?....You KNOW why. There is only a limited number of characters available per comment. This is not a blog it's restrictive. However, even when I give SDA Gen. Conf. or EGW Estate documentation you deny your own SDA authoritative historians on SDA condoned websites because you don't like the content.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
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@BuckLakeBoy: "You KNOW why. There is only a limited number of characters available per comment."
Then shorten your posts to one point per post.
dconklin58 1 year ago
> I asked you how many letters, dirary entries and manuscripts you read that were from the unpublished materials.
I didn't keep track while I was in the vault. How many did you read? Where's the proof that the branches don't have what is in the main vault? When we you in the main vault? Who told you that everything in the main isn't in the branches?
dconklin58 1 year ago
>You use the typical SDA tactic of "redirect" or "plausible diversion" so well.
I'm having a huge problem with this site (maybe my browser. So, I can't always get to your posts to answer them. Plus, we only have so many characters we can use.
My question to you: why do critics have to lie so much? I now have a list of 80 lies the critics have told. Some can be shown to vbe wrong in as little as 5 minutes of work. Which the critics never do.
dconklin58 1 year ago
>Arianism is back on the rise even now.
Proof? Why do you make claims and never give the proof?
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "You make claims and never give the proof?" "Undoubtedly, the main conduit of Arianism and anti-Trinitarianism into early Seventh-day Adventism was the Restorationist backgrounds of numerous Sabbatarian Adventist founding fathers (referred to as the "pioneers)." & "We have no record that they sat up one day and said: "This Arianism business is simply killing our people with legalistic attitudes that are bringing on a terrible spiritual condition in the church!" W Whidden-Andrews
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@dconklin58 "Thus, the statement (Trinity) voted at Dallas in 1980 was the fourth fundamental beliefs statement of Seventh-day Adventists, but only the second to be officially voted by a General Conference session. The official adoption of the explicitly trinitarian Dallas statement might have been expected to bring closure to the century-old debate, but it proved to be a precursor of RENEWED tensions." Aside from SDAnet research papers, there are many more not on their website if you look!
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
EGW says, "In many cases I have advised out-of-door work for piano tuners, telling them that unless they changed their business, they would have to deal with insanity. We are made up of nerves and senses, as well as conscience and affections. All parts of the living machinery are to be wisely cared for and considerately treated. The Lord has respect for the body as well as the soul".--Letter 104, 1901.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy it's all about principle. If you had read her work on health reform, she stated that real good reason for health reform is the principle of looking over your health because it's duty to God. Whether or not the piano tuners would have gone insane was a matter of her opinion. Her working principle is that outdoor work does well for overall health with fresh air and sunlight. To her, working only indoors ain't healthy.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@iMattCi89 I have been reading and compiling data regarding her published writing since 1965. The comment was tongue in cheek (EGW did not 'invent' balanced lifestyle) since all of the discussion developing from this video diverts away from the point of the enire purpose of the dialogue, both current and Martin's previous 1950's dialogue,...is the SDA church a cult or not.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy So in your opinion, what makes the SDA Church a cult?
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@iMattCi89 It's a research fact not an opinion. EGW was a false prophet=cult. Already gave you two EGW Estate statements where they admit she stole material even for Testimonies for the Church-9 Volumes. Do a search for "The 'Sanctuary Doctrine' Asset or Liability' by Raymond F. Cottrell. Don't know who he is?..check Wikipedia & then read his article.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
How weak these people are. Attack the SDA with the writings by a dead woman....what a weak bunch of small minded people!
TheSda1979 1 year ago
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The God who gave the law of Moses to Israel is the same God who says in Jer 31:31-33 that He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. The new covenant now is the law of Christ 1 Cor 9:21. That law of Moses has already been changed by God Himself Heb 7:12. Christians who keeps on looking back in the law of Moses as for salvation is fallen from grace Gal 5:4. They might end up in hell.
askari45 1 year ago
Written as a personal message to me from @Lysimachus78
You can blame me all you want for buying into my "false prophet's lies", but just remember, you've got Ignatius Loyola on your side, whether you realize it or not. So you should have nothing to worry about. I guess we'll meet each other in hell-pit #666! XD See you there! ;)
spooteronicus 1 year ago
@spooteronicus
So there you have it ... typical SDA sending people to hell because they won't agree with their bullshit ... that's the way to evangelize huh??? freak !!!
spooteronicus 1 year ago
1 Corinthians 3:11 (King James Version) 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
What's the foundation Jesus Christ or Ellen White???
windbisquit25 1 year ago
Bill Johnsson keeps saying he doesn't agree with the things written in the SDA Church Herald, but the point is, these things are being written and preached by people in the church, and nothing is being done to stop them.
cornerstone111 1 year ago
@cornerstone111 Yes! nothing is done to stop the articles and books by SDA's attributing EGW as the only authority to infallibly interpret the Bible..true! But the writers are authors in high places of authority and they do get published with the blessing of the editors and the GC and the White Estate. No one can simply send in an article to Ministry or Review and have it auto published. It is scrutinized word by word before approval to publish.......
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@cornerstone111 Continued: eg. The Ministry published a new statement on EGW's authority approved by Gen Conf, White Estate, in Feb. 83. By December of '83, Erwin Gane, religion teacher at Avondale, Union and Pacific Union colleges etc, had an article printed re: EGW which defies the new statement if both are read in comparison. Without this constant contradiction of yes-no, there would be a major split within the church and the leaders and editors know it only too well.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@cornerstone111 A friend who was asst. editor at Adventist Review during the 80's told me that the job was a constant conflict of conscience as articles deemed necessary to be published by upper level brass bypassed asst. editorial teams criticisms to the contrary. Martin said initially, before QOD, they had to wade through piles of contradictory doctrinal statements and articles. Nothing changed after QOD was published except the seizure of SDA high-power positions by ultra conservatives.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy: Name the asst editor at the Adventist Review. This is on the level of hear-say.
dconklin58 1 year ago
@dconklin58 The Asst. Editor works elsewhere now in the denomination and no you cannot have the name since that is how SDA workers get fired. Point...all prominent SDA pioneers were held to Arianism, that Jesus was a created being and not God. By 1945 Daniel & Revelation book was revised and deleted the Arian belief statements from the book. (The Ministry, May 1945) They did not replace it with a Trinitarian view but left it out altogether because the editors said they recognized.....
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago