Of course that the measurements differed, it didn't had to be for ex. 60 cm blade lenght for all the people using one. The basic idea for the ninjato is that it was shorter then the katana, the tsuka (handle) was just like a katana (for disguising purpose) and the blade was very slightly curved.
@Hyoujinsama its funny cuz i had an arguement with a guy who said that the japanese didnt use straight swords and that the ninjato was an invention of the hollywood film industry........ i think im going to use the link from this video to prove him wrong :D
@yusifabdalbarr87 Hi, actually,the straight ninjato is a hollywoodian invention. These straight swords, from this video, were used in the pre-Heian times (before 800 A.D.) by the japanese, initially by importing them from China and Korea and later on manufacturing them themselves, so the swords were still created even after 800 A.D. but usually as temple offerings. As for the ninjato, it was slightly curved and measured somewhere between a shoto (wakizashi) and a katana: 50-70 cm blade lenght :)
yo bro i like your video jokoto does look like the ninjato what we see to day even thoese it root in china way before japan start make there sword thumb up bro i love it
Interesting to see how the shape has come into style with the "tactical" crowd these days when it was being done so long ago. I always thought that differential hardening was something that came about with the tachi/katana.
Very interesting. I have read some comments on other video's of people trying to argue when the chisel grind first appeared. Some say it is a modern US change for ninja movies I think this Video proves it has been around a LOT LONGER.
@vince38curious2 Actually, this is an archaic Chinese design...but I have NEVER seen it on a shinogizukuri blade...at least, not one that was intended to be that way.
@skaterkid765 Thanks! ^_^ Glad you like. Photos of polished blades this old are few and far between... It's generally considered destructive to the artifact, as polishing removes metal...but it's IMMENSELY important to understanding sword construction from back then.
nice to see a video after all this time.lol. can i ask do you do bushido or kendo or are you just a collector? i wish swords weren't ilegal in the uk otherwise id be able to bye one.
@MrNath5150 Like scottbaio said, bushido is more a way of doing things, etiquette, etc.; not a martial art or schooling.
As for what I do, I study iaido and kenjutsu under KSR and MR, and am a practitioner of kendo (not plain shiai kendo, though. That's just hitting people).
@MrNath5150 to my knowledge, swords are still legal for practitioners of martial arts. So, if you want to be able to own a sword, my suggestion would be to find a school where you can train Japanese or Korean sword arts. I would suggest that even if words were legal for everyone in the UK though, because I feel that the right to own and handle a sword is earned through training.
@midwestterror my philosophy is this as long as you know the serious damage any edged weapon can do to the human body not only to your victims but to yourself then you would have the right to own
Ok maybe the coefficients of expansion of different materials is just too over the head of some peoples understanding of materials engineering. But just because you don't get it doesn't mean that Japanese sword smiths over the ages didn't.
@nhaluta Know how straight proto-Yamato swords were made with differential hardening? Forged with a recurve and slightly straightened by heat treat...same way they make muzori swords now.
Sorry people but we are carrying over a conversation from some fools video. Hamon on an older blade doesn't mean that it is constructed of same material or same process it only means it was being used and a means to harden the edge. There is evidence that cavemen hardened their wooden spear tips in fire what that proves is humans have known about heat treating for a very long time.
@nhaluta Already replied about construction to one of your other comments. Anyhow...now that I've proven the use of differential hardening even in proto-Yamato swordsmithing, you're gonna say it's meaningless? What happened to "It would be a time traveling artifact worth millions$"?
Would you like a chemical breakdown of tamahagane as compared to ancient Chinese steel? I can get that for you.
@toth2173 Actually...it's a lot like a takohiki. That particular sword it katakiriha, so it looks like that on one side, but is flat on the other. Just like takohiki. ^_^
Thank you for the video of swords that show evidence of differential hardening. And the folding of iron smithing. But what do these have to do with the development of the blade other than other than a progression over time of technique, which is staring you in the face. The older swords were made from imported iron from china/Korea. Sorry it doesn't dispute archeological evidence of the foundry's development.
@nhaluta japanese blades were never cast they were forged maybe modeled after baldes from china brought through Korea but never using imported iron they used satetsu( Iron sand ) from japan
@toth2173 At this point in time, both swords and iron were imported from the mainland. ^_^ Imported iron is something that happened all throughout the history of Japanese sword making, too.
@nhaluta ...Wait...why are you changing your argument? I was saying, very specifically, that the swords did not change much...
As for the use of imported iron...tamahagane isn't special. It's simply a way of making a useable metal out of ore.
Heard of the tatara? The furnace used to smelt tamahagane? It's first appearance in Japan was during the 6th century AD. It's design was imported from the mainland, where it existed since BC times.
@Hyoujinsama Yes the tatara only used iron sand and not rock iron. I was not aware of definitive archeological proof that tartara existed in Japan prior to the Heian period which was the 8th-9th century. The Tatara is very important to producing the steel for a koto quality sword, the sword-smiths needed to work hard to remove the impurities such as titanium oxide, magnesium oxide, etc that occurs naturally in iron sand from the steel.
@Hyoujinsama Changing? Just what is my argument? On someone else's video I stated that when the Hamon is applied to a Katana its the moment that a straight sword takes on its curve. Why did I say that? Because I saw it done with my own two eyes. I was then told by the sword smith that it was all due to the material and the process of manufacture some of which I witnessed. Then you put your 2-cents in and also made this video to prove to me that the Hamon isn't responsible for the curvature.
@nhaluta "They did not put a curve in of purpose you are making all this bs up!" "It is hard to believe (Obata) would state that the curve of the blade was the conscious choice" "Dude the Chokuto predates differential heat treatment process" ...Whoops...ran out of space...
@Hyoujinsama My original statement to KOTN was “It is hard to believe Toshishro Obata would state that the curve of the blade was the conscious choice over a very hardened cutting edge with a softer more flexible steel core and back to reduce breakage.” You have taken my propositions out of context in an apparent attempt to misrepresent my position on their subjects to create an obvious illusion that they are flawed or that you have refuted them. Further discussion with you would be futile.
@nhaluta Why are you bringing him into this conversation? I'm talking about all of the other stuff you said, too. You know, the stuff I pasted? How am I misrepresenting what you said if I copy/pasted EXACTLY what you typed? I could care less what you said to some other guy. I'm correcting false information. Get over it already.
If you think further discussion would be futile, give it up. But, of course, you'll say something else.
@nhaluta "I would love to see some jokoto or chokuto with the same metallurgy as a more modern Katana. Since the development of metal smelting, materials and forges as well as the forging process changed dramatically from that period to the Katana I think it would be a --- amazing time traveling artifact worth million$." Your argument was that the reason they switched from straight to curved swords was that they discovered differential hardening.
@Hyoujinsama No it was not.-- Not until now did I investigate your channel your videos are rife with sloppy technique and self promotion. I see no reason to carry on this dialog with you, you appear to be incapable of intelligent discourse.
@nhaluta The material used to make tamahagane, satetsu, is simply an iron ore that comes in the form of sand. Satetsu is Fe3O4, the magnetic oxide of iron, magnetite. It was used in iron making in China since over 900 BC. It's nothing new...
Curved swords, well into the tens of c. BC. Tatara, BC. Satetsu, BC. Forge folding steel, BC. Differential hardening, BC. Japanese sword production? 5th century AD. Production of curved tachi? First appeared in the late 8th century AD.
@toth2173 I used some of the same pics I did for the chokuto/ninjato video. Or were you talking about my three failed attempts at uploading this blasted movie? XD
@Hyoujinsama so it was basically a one handed weapon made to stab and hack but had two handed versions also right? I would assume something like this would have similar handling to a hand and a half sword
@MrRik338 These are all actual examples of preserved/polished jokoto swords, all of which are very much genuine. Which ones are you thinking are fake?
:37, i guess the americanized tanto point ain't so american after all.
well it might be silent but i've got black sabbath songs playing through my head all the time, something about power lines being too close to the house. anyway, tomorrow's dream was playing and this time there were pictures of swords so the video still kicked ass. way better than your first attempt at posting this and planet caravan was playing.
@Hyoujinsama war pigs is good but supernaut would be better. oh and i found out that it wasn't my brain being fried, i had my windows media player playing my sabbath playlist.
the hamon at 0:43 is stunning!!! so organic and alive.
crazyroosterfist 7 months ago
Of course that the measurements differed, it didn't had to be for ex. 60 cm blade lenght for all the people using one. The basic idea for the ninjato is that it was shorter then the katana, the tsuka (handle) was just like a katana (for disguising purpose) and the blade was very slightly curved.
FireElementNinja 1 year ago
Never seen such old swords even on pictures. Also, never thought they did horimono 0:21 way back then.
VladPayne 1 year ago
that one sword looked really really dinged up.....whats up with that?????
yusifabdalbarr87 1 year ago
@yusifabdalbarr87 It was excavated from an earthen tomb. It's not dinged. it's severely rusted away.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama its funny cuz i had an arguement with a guy who said that the japanese didnt use straight swords and that the ninjato was an invention of the hollywood film industry........ i think im going to use the link from this video to prove him wrong :D
yusifabdalbarr87 1 year ago
@yusifabdalbarr87 Hi, actually,the straight ninjato is a hollywoodian invention. These straight swords, from this video, were used in the pre-Heian times (before 800 A.D.) by the japanese, initially by importing them from China and Korea and later on manufacturing them themselves, so the swords were still created even after 800 A.D. but usually as temple offerings. As for the ninjato, it was slightly curved and measured somewhere between a shoto (wakizashi) and a katana: 50-70 cm blade lenght :)
FireElementNinja 1 year ago
I love chokuto... my favourite kind of sword.
Aikidopoi 1 year ago
Full tang?
jigs8000 1 year ago
yo bro i like your video jokoto does look like the ninjato what we see to day even thoese it root in china way before japan start make there sword thumb up bro i love it
kissrdbc 1 year ago
Tactical Ninjy Swords! Just kidding!
Interesting to see how the shape has come into style with the "tactical" crowd these days when it was being done so long ago. I always thought that differential hardening was something that came about with the tachi/katana.
Gread vid, thanks for the info!
Mveculous 1 year ago
great video, my dude.
very interesting to me.
thanks for sharing.
respect.
otizzo 1 year ago
Very interesting. I have read some comments on other video's of people trying to argue when the chisel grind first appeared. Some say it is a modern US change for ninja movies I think this Video proves it has been around a LOT LONGER.
vince38curious2 1 year ago
@vince38curious2 Actually, this is an archaic Chinese design...but I have NEVER seen it on a shinogizukuri blade...at least, not one that was intended to be that way.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
Some of those blades looked absolutly amazing. Great vid man.
skaterkid765 1 year ago
@skaterkid765 Thanks! ^_^ Glad you like. Photos of polished blades this old are few and far between... It's generally considered destructive to the artifact, as polishing removes metal...but it's IMMENSELY important to understanding sword construction from back then.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
nice to see a video after all this time.lol. can i ask do you do bushido or kendo or are you just a collector? i wish swords weren't ilegal in the uk otherwise id be able to bye one.
MrNath5150 1 year ago
@MrNath5150 bushido isn't a martial art.
scottbaioisdead 1 year ago
@MrNath5150 Like scottbaio said, bushido is more a way of doing things, etiquette, etc.; not a martial art or schooling.
As for what I do, I study iaido and kenjutsu under KSR and MR, and am a practitioner of kendo (not plain shiai kendo, though. That's just hitting people).
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@MrNath5150 to my knowledge, swords are still legal for practitioners of martial arts. So, if you want to be able to own a sword, my suggestion would be to find a school where you can train Japanese or Korean sword arts. I would suggest that even if words were legal for everyone in the UK though, because I feel that the right to own and handle a sword is earned through training.
midwestterror 1 year ago
@midwestterror my philosophy is this as long as you know the serious damage any edged weapon can do to the human body not only to your victims but to yourself then you would have the right to own
malevolenceXXXensues 1 year ago
Ok maybe the coefficients of expansion of different materials is just too over the head of some peoples understanding of materials engineering. But just because you don't get it doesn't mean that Japanese sword smiths over the ages didn't.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@nhaluta Know how straight proto-Yamato swords were made with differential hardening? Forged with a recurve and slightly straightened by heat treat...same way they make muzori swords now.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
Sorry people but we are carrying over a conversation from some fools video. Hamon on an older blade doesn't mean that it is constructed of same material or same process it only means it was being used and a means to harden the edge. There is evidence that cavemen hardened their wooden spear tips in fire what that proves is humans have known about heat treating for a very long time.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@nhaluta Already replied about construction to one of your other comments. Anyhow...now that I've proven the use of differential hardening even in proto-Yamato swordsmithing, you're gonna say it's meaningless? What happened to "It would be a time traveling artifact worth millions$"?
Would you like a chemical breakdown of tamahagane as compared to ancient Chinese steel? I can get that for you.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
also at 0:57 that reminds me of a takohiki sushi blade
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth2173 Actually...it's a lot like a takohiki. That particular sword it katakiriha, so it looks like that on one side, but is flat on the other. Just like takohiki. ^_^
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
Thank you for the video of swords that show evidence of differential hardening. And the folding of iron smithing. But what do these have to do with the development of the blade other than other than a progression over time of technique, which is staring you in the face. The older swords were made from imported iron from china/Korea. Sorry it doesn't dispute archeological evidence of the foundry's development.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@nhaluta japanese blades were never cast they were forged maybe modeled after baldes from china brought through Korea but never using imported iron they used satetsu( Iron sand ) from japan
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth2173 At this point in time, both swords and iron were imported from the mainland. ^_^ Imported iron is something that happened all throughout the history of Japanese sword making, too.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@nhaluta ...Wait...why are you changing your argument? I was saying, very specifically, that the swords did not change much...
As for the use of imported iron...tamahagane isn't special. It's simply a way of making a useable metal out of ore.
Heard of the tatara? The furnace used to smelt tamahagane? It's first appearance in Japan was during the 6th century AD. It's design was imported from the mainland, where it existed since BC times.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama Yes the tatara only used iron sand and not rock iron. I was not aware of definitive archeological proof that tartara existed in Japan prior to the Heian period which was the 8th-9th century. The Tatara is very important to producing the steel for a koto quality sword, the sword-smiths needed to work hard to remove the impurities such as titanium oxide, magnesium oxide, etc that occurs naturally in iron sand from the steel.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama Changing? Just what is my argument? On someone else's video I stated that when the Hamon is applied to a Katana its the moment that a straight sword takes on its curve. Why did I say that? Because I saw it done with my own two eyes. I was then told by the sword smith that it was all due to the material and the process of manufacture some of which I witnessed. Then you put your 2-cents in and also made this video to prove to me that the Hamon isn't responsible for the curvature.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@nhaluta "They did not put a curve in of purpose you are making all this bs up!" "It is hard to believe (Obata) would state that the curve of the blade was the conscious choice" "Dude the Chokuto predates differential heat treatment process" ...Whoops...ran out of space...
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama My original statement to KOTN was “It is hard to believe Toshishro Obata would state that the curve of the blade was the conscious choice over a very hardened cutting edge with a softer more flexible steel core and back to reduce breakage.” You have taken my propositions out of context in an apparent attempt to misrepresent my position on their subjects to create an obvious illusion that they are flawed or that you have refuted them. Further discussion with you would be futile.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@nhaluta Why are you bringing him into this conversation? I'm talking about all of the other stuff you said, too. You know, the stuff I pasted? How am I misrepresenting what you said if I copy/pasted EXACTLY what you typed? I could care less what you said to some other guy. I'm correcting false information. Get over it already.
If you think further discussion would be futile, give it up. But, of course, you'll say something else.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@nhaluta "I would love to see some jokoto or chokuto with the same metallurgy as a more modern Katana. Since the development of metal smelting, materials and forges as well as the forging process changed dramatically from that period to the Katana I think it would be a --- amazing time traveling artifact worth million$." Your argument was that the reason they switched from straight to curved swords was that they discovered differential hardening.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama No it was not.-- Not until now did I investigate your channel your videos are rife with sloppy technique and self promotion. I see no reason to carry on this dialog with you, you appear to be incapable of intelligent discourse.
nhaluta 1 year ago
@nhaluta Sloppy technique? Self promotion? ...You sure are weird...
Sloppy technique, maybe. Why not show me how you do it?
Self promotion...how? Because I want to post videos on things people are curious about?
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@nhaluta The material used to make tamahagane, satetsu, is simply an iron ore that comes in the form of sand. Satetsu is Fe3O4, the magnetic oxide of iron, magnetite. It was used in iron making in China since over 900 BC. It's nothing new...
Curved swords, well into the tens of c. BC. Tatara, BC. Satetsu, BC. Forge folding steel, BC. Differential hardening, BC. Japanese sword production? 5th century AD. Production of curved tachi? First appeared in the late 8th century AD.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
hmmm this feels like deja vu any how I always like your videos
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth2173 I used some of the same pics I did for the chokuto/ninjato video. Or were you talking about my three failed attempts at uploading this blasted movie? XD
Thanks for watching!
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama thank you for the info and yes I meant the chokuto / ninjato vid
toth2173 1 year ago
i wonder what were the fighting styles like
malevolenceXXXensues 1 year ago
@malevolenceXXXensues At this point, a lot like the mainland Asian styles.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama so it was basically a one handed weapon made to stab and hack but had two handed versions also right? I would assume something like this would have similar handling to a hand and a half sword
malevolenceXXXensues 1 year ago
the double edges one really was the japanese sword before the katana or tachi or anything. but the hollywood swords are fake as hell
MrRik338 1 year ago
@MrRik338 These are all actual examples of preserved/polished jokoto swords, all of which are very much genuine. Which ones are you thinking are fake?
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
I was -just- watching your videos about Tsukamaki, thinking to myself that I can't wait until you upload more videos. How strange. :O
DoomscytheHarvester 1 year ago
@DoomscytheHarvester (Insert Twilight Zone music here)
^_^ Thanks for watching.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
:37, i guess the americanized tanto point ain't so american after all.
well it might be silent but i've got black sabbath songs playing through my head all the time, something about power lines being too close to the house. anyway, tomorrow's dream was playing and this time there were pictures of swords so the video still kicked ass. way better than your first attempt at posting this and planet caravan was playing.
FatGuyWithAKatana 1 year ago
@FatGuyWithAKatana The first vid almost fits that, though, what with the wild, non-picture feedbacky...whatever that was.
Anyhow, this vid needs some good ol' warpigs or something like that.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama war pigs is good but supernaut would be better. oh and i found out that it wasn't my brain being fried, i had my windows media player playing my sabbath playlist.
FatGuyWithAKatana 1 year ago
Is that a video of a really old Japanese sword?
del885 1 year ago
@del885 Yes, there are many different old Japanese swords there. The oldest pictured predates the curved tachi/katana by almost 1000 years.
Hyoujinsama 1 year ago
@Hyoujinsama damn, if only I was really cashed up, I would get my hands on one of these piece of history
del885 1 year ago