Mostly people are being too harsh on K who is at the end of his career with Trungpa who is at the beginning of his career. Trungpa is not very articulate and is not able to keep up with K, and K is not interested in slowing down much let Trungpa get up to speed in the discussion. It would have been more interesting conversation to see them both at their best rather than this one-sided conversation. Trungpa looks intoxicated, perhaps over medicated if this was after his accident.
krishna totally misses the boat and when chogyam speaks he cut him off. he wants immediacy, answers and it doesn't work like that.. ha ha.. it is funny.. ii would like to hear chogyam speak though. hear his deep insights.. but he is with his practice of being with all phenomenal.. oh dear i can't help it krishna is a flake! ha ha !
I must say this was very amusing indeed. I love everything about it the Dan e between the absurdity of talking and the deep listening or perhaps the reverse who knows.
09:39 (part 1) + 4:55 (part 2) = 16.34 minutes - Krishnamurti keeps asking nonsensical, dumb questions. For almost 17 minutes, the freak that Krishnamurti is, keeps blabbering on and on, selling his half-informed subjective opinion of what he understands by meditation, what kind of sharing/discussing/examining "together" is this? Wasted Chogyam Trungpa's and 52000 other peoples' time.
@0synesthete0 nothing K is asking is "nonsensical." If you think it is nonsensical then it just shows that you are not a meditator and have had no experiences beyond ordiary ways of thinking and attachment to discrimination.
It's odd that so many comments point to a conflict or argument between these two, did I miss something?
It's clear that they both have different styles of communication, but I didn't see K trying to overpower Chogyam. In fact, I found Chogyam's act of listening to be an interesting part of this conversation.
Pretty energizing to see 2 of my favorite author's speak about such an interesting topic.
K. does not recognize path of becoming, he in fact in his system, which is as simple as living in here and now, does not require meditations at all. He doesn't go that way. But he is right on his own, for himself. But many dual intellects will not grasp a tiny bit what he talks and will consider him a heretic. For them, some forms of paths of becoming are in fact useful for getting themselves one day to that point where Krishnamurti was...
JK: "if i may , TOGETHER (!!!) inquire into this question...."
and then he goes on talking and talking.............. I can understand if hes pissed by priests and brahmans and theosophs, but, man, he really needs to relax.
and whats wrong with chaos? whats wrong with order? Its so weird, 10 years ago I thought hes a genius, now I think its just bullshit. I wander what I will think of him next week
@dyterdyter interesting. why do you think he is full of crap? Please I am not being cynical here but merely curious to share another thought. I find K not giving a chance to another to talk. Does he do that so that he would not loose his train of thought? Many things makes perfect sense.
Disorder, of which K speaks, is the inherent nature of the egoic psyche. Investigating that disorder is part of the process of rectification that all ascendent beings undergo. Perfecting is not perfection. We start with our failings and frailties and we discover, examine and eliminate them. Life and its experiences are that process. The process serves to render the ego a flawless and useful part of the psychic mechanism. Once made transparent, this allows us to transcend our material limitations
The two men have very different perspective constructs and it is difficult for the bridge to be built. K has his style of deconstruction which makes finding common ground difficult to recognize. K says he wants to understand why there is chaos and disorder. This is an important point. It challenges our "desire" to solve. K says to observe "what is disorder" in the manner that Bodhidharma said to his disciple Huike "show me your mind." "Observe disorder"is K's koan pointing to the nondual..
Please. K is not saying meditation is bad, in fact in other videos it's quite clear he himself meditates, and prescribes it for understanding. He is saying that "meditation" as it comes, prepackaged to the west from Eastern cultures with certain set of actions you take etc is wrong. What meditation is is simply to think deeply about something to garner insight, but they way to do this lies with the individual, and not institutionalized methods of meditation. That's what I think anyway.
@MrGongonzo if you feel uncomfortable watching K, then it is not K who is the fool. K has a style that he uses to communicate and if the style gets in the way of hearing what he has to say, then that is sad for the person who has ears but can't hear.
Lets not forget that Krishnamurti was 77 in this, 45 years his senior! Not to take anything from Trungpa ...Krishnamurti is just emphasizing that one should be inquiring Now and not putting it off for a later date maybe never...You cant be present in the future ... only now :)
I disagree with Krishnamurti...he fails to answer we are meditating already in daily lives even if we dont sit...
the very observation of disorder is due to idea of what order is in Krishmurti..
Krishnamurti liked to blow his own trumpet by saying " I have made it difficult for you to answer" . lot of judgements he is making through his "personal experience"..lol..while there Trunpa sits and feels compassion on the poor confused chap..
Krishnamurti looses his ground..haha ..he is restless
Having associated with Buddhist religionists I don't disagree with K., and yet somehow he seems to miss the point. Is the problem he describes essential or accidental? Certainly the longest question Ive ever heard anyone ask too!
I like him (Krishnamurti), truly, but I don't see how following the in-and-out breaths creates any kind of problem. I meditate to calm the mind, to gain greater clarity and insight into the mind's workings, to experience a hour of peace and calm amidst the stresses of modern life...many reasons, all of them problem-free. In my experience, meditation leads to a state of knowing, of seeing, that is clearer than mere thinking could ever be.
@hearts0ngs Precisely, what non-sensical conclusion Krishnamurti comes to ! Meditation a problem... ridiculous.
He just didn't get that not all are born to the level that he was born with. Meditation instruction bring people to a pedestal that allows his to the enquiry that Krishnmurti is talking about. Very few people know that the very end of his life, he acknowledged that he did not get the deeper meanings of sound (mantra) meditation before !
Our world is hostage to the insatiable rampaging of the ruling class private gain and greed, dominating,dehumanising,devaluing everyone and everything in the midst. We can and must change the wage slavery of immense humanity in a market system of artificial scarcity . We can share the world for our common needs and well being in harmony within and without.
You get it know because you are listening, before you were waiting for an answer.. Jk does not give answers, he gives question so you can answer them your self.
This guy talked alot and really felt like I got nothing substantial out of it.. Its kind of strange because he speaks out of a very calm state which I can appreciate. But how can he be against meditation in a world so governed by the egoic mind and meditation is the release from that world and I way to get ascend from that. I am not saying one should sit in a room and meditate his whole life. Eventually you take the centered meditative state into the real world. Maybe I just dont get him??
As a meditator, i can see where this brilliant man is going. Its my feeling, he is in perpetual meditation of life. He is observing life deeply. When he says he is against meditation , its sitting cross legged. In the meditative world, the highest state of meditation is to be in meditation as you live a normal life. When u cross the bridge of sitting meditation, this is where you reach
Well, that does seem to be one of Krishnamurti's contradictions: he refers to dialogs with others as, and I'm paraphrasing, "not as I the teacher speaking with authority -- I have no authority whatsoever -- but rather as two friends having a conversation." Then you see him, or hear him in recorded lecturers, insisting on dominating every conversation.
6:41- 6:43 "Well you can't find out intellectually" ... gold from Chogyam! In one fell swoop, Krishnamurti is smote. Krishnamurti's reply: "intellect is part of the whole structure" reveals that he is indeed a pretender.
This man should be recategorised as a philosopher NOT a spiritual man...there is no spirit in Krishnamurti.
@MrGunwitch ... There is no spirit in you either. I think that's his message. At the core of Buddhism is the doctrine of Anatman, or "no soul." The "soul" is fanciful projection of ego. We seek continuity, not only in this life but also in the hereafter. Krishnamurti never saw himself as a "spiritual" teacher. "Spirit" is loaded term and Krishnamurti avoided it for good reason. He was a philosopher, concerned more with how to ask the right questions than with answers and conclusions.
Too bad no one had the guts to tell this vain little man to stop combing his hair forward to cover his bald spot. If someone had, it might have cured him of the rest of his narcicism. YUK!
To observe disorder with a religious concept of 'order', makes for more disorder. K is right here, the Buddhist seems to be a big water-headed baby full of beliefs and with no real experience of life. The real religion of Tibet is not Buddhism, but the Bon religion, a basically animistic religion but that had and has real knowledge about the spirits of nature and how to live in accordance with natural wisdom. Buddhism does the contrary, it's pure moralism.
I wonder if Trungpa is being mindful to keep from slapping the dogshit from Krishnamurti's mouth or if he is drunk? Much like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.
Krishnamurti is giving the non-sectarian, snow lion's milk (dzogchen) teaching to someone obviously blinded by their own 'sutra conditioning'. but this too is pure :)
K's, desperate attempt in trying to engage an intellectual debate over meditation is so negatively disturbing. It really exposes an arrogance as well as one of a very critical nature.
K's, desperate attempt in trying to engage an intellectual debate over meditation is so negatively disturbing. It really exposes an arrogance as well as one of a very critical nature.
He's just arrogantly spitting sophistry at Trungpa, who listens mindfully and occasionally responds in such a way that has Krishnamurti rapidly convoluting and elaborating his point.
I have to admit I didn't watch the whole thing since it's largely useless at an intellectual level. Maybe it carries a shakti charge, but I didn't tune in for it.
What's up with this Krishnamurti, an Indian dude with a scarf, he is trying very hard to become a British Lord; and he is questioning meditation - just find it odd.
this is what happening on earth, we all have our own ideas, that makes us humans that makes us creatures of war. we will never have piece unless we truly start over, its the only way.. to forget our pass and see whats happening now.. and stop all this nonsense. the hunger the killing... everyone is looking for a savior, keep waiting.... we must save ourselves.....
these comments from the rest of the listeners seem to have no understanding what soever what K is talking about, nor did chogyam had any observation to see what K was talking about, he is far gone and totally irrational that is so clear.
@willford10 Yes, if self knowledge reveals itself, only you can listen. If you are not listening you are denying yourself, isn't it? Stupid ignorant comments can easily be put without sensibility, but have some sensibility before commenting.
Wow this is hardly a debate. Kishnamutri seems to not even contemplate what Trungpa is saying.. its like talking to a wall. How dissapointing..i thought this would be something extraordinary but
Kishnamutri seems to be trying to put artificial order into this comversation. It is not fluid at all..
Your Trungpa came from a buddhist school and he is bounded by that but not Krishnamurti, so obviously you feel he is talking to wall....wall made of buddhism. Get out, it is time to become a buddha of your own.
KM asks and the same question rethorically himself for the first 5 minutes. To hear any semblance of dialogue, CT speaks at 5:00, 5:50, 6:41 and there is an interesting exchange (finally!..) at 7:21+ You decide what you get out of this,.. Noe, in part 1 of 5 KM never paused more than half a second, even after seemingly asking a question, to let CT answer.
Newbie...oldbie ...very arrogance of a immature mind. What is this membership to a rhetoric club...Analyse your own mind not the video....you will surprised with things you can find....that you thought exist.
This is one of the reasons I find Jiddu such a pain to listen to: he insists on continuously talking, repeating the same thing over and over again, not giving a chance to the other person to even complete a sentence. Poor old Chögyam had to be satisfied with speaking in fragments of sentences.
Listening to K again,he asks if "meditation is a way of trying to escape life" or facing it directly.I've learned that it is about facing it directly.Analytical meditation has always forced me to face things,understand it,then clear the mind.
NO! meditating is NOT escaping.Meditation brings the meditator deep into oneself and face to face with the truth or untruths you need to work with,discover is the best for one,and get rid of the rest!
I think his point is to negate the hucksterism of 'pop meditation' -- pop your fav cd, drop your yoga mat, mutter some mantras, stretch a little, whoops time's up -- rinse and repeat, and one can supposedly bank that enlightenment will follow.
Do you mean they can't solve things "intellectually"because of peoples' "egos"which always gets in the way,in a somewhat challenging way?i.s"Khrsh.thinks he's more intellectual than Chogyam,& viceversa? "disorder"never occur if you are a total"yes-man"(that's a saying though....In buddhism,There is not inherent existence,so even that would be a "label"and not cause "disorder."if one has perfect"emptiness'pheew.
Krishnamurti's Book,The Impossible Question was interesting,however,he should know,Buddha taught in a multitude of ways,being effective to the multitude of ways different peoples learn!!!!
I believe K repeatedly pointed out to the fossilization of (authentic) teachings that follow from not making a 'direct' experience for oneself. On record, he was staunchly against the deifying of persons (especially in how they would lead to the organizing of 'enlightenment' authorities). Like any good pointer of non-duality, he also points that Life itself is the greatest teacher... and not a preference in idolatory.
I have really tried to understand JK and give him a chance--I really have--but I find him generally incomprehensible. Just take note of his nervousness and self-consciousness: he doesn't like meditating, but I think he probably would have benefited from it. I would say he has a point but I don't think he is really saying anything.
For seanmeggeson: Krishnamurti meditated every day and he even was able to levitate during his meditations. He does not appear nervous to me. He is just very alert. What he is saying is that we must question everything. This is also what Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche taught. Krishnamurti asks people to question transcendental meditation, because it leads people away from total alertness. There are different schools of meditation. None of them are bad or wrong. Krishnamurti supports alertness.
For wearesofcckedtrailer: I was talking to seanmeggeson. I looked at her channel and she is a woman who looks like Derrick's girlfriend. Maybe sometimes the replys get linked by the system to the wrong comments.
What K is trying to tell us is the big mistake everyone is making. We adopt a concept of suffering given to us by some guru, and try to overcome the concept. If only the seeker could see the futility of such attempts. There's only one result to doing this and it is failure. Frustrated, we move on to adopt another teaching. To observe what is going on in the whole field of consciousness without holding anything back & without preconceptions of what is to be observed is the best teaching there is.
Krishnamurti was a light to this world. He was so far ahead of his time that most people had a hard time keeping up with him. We want someone to tell us what to do. We want a preset mode of thinking and living to conform to. Scarcely do we venture out on our own into new territory. K wants us to find for ourself that if we conform to a pattern we can't possibly know freedom. Once a man who really wants freedom sees that he won't waste a minute on ready made attempts to arrive at liberation.
What the hell is Murti saying? Be a lamp unto yourself. Is that it? The Buddha said that 2500yrs ago. He also gave us a path. What does Murti give us? Come on, Nietzsche said all this much, much better.
This isn't necessarily relevant, but I find Krishnamurti's body language really annoying. His gesticulation, staring, and movements are more creepy than graceful.
Listening in choiceless awareness, not what can I get out of this, not how I do or don't agree, no trying to second guess the questioner or the responder, only totally focussed attention on the question itself to see where it ends up. Try it and smile. The assumptions about body language are the projections of our own data base which may have no bearing whatsoever on what is actually going on for K. jonald32z listening past our own chatter takes true affection for other fellow beings. Peace
He is right from his point of view (God bless his soul), but he forgets that meditation in any form connects us to truth.
Consciousness develop easier when we have stillness of the mind and a relaxed body. Ultimately we should not need to meditate, but most humans are so lost that they need a connection or routine to get back to basics....
The journey within is a holy path that is necessary for some to connect with the supreme being. The higher self.
Krishnamurti is simply trying to say that adding meditation is one more condition to be removed. He's trying to get to the root of the problems. I do wish that I could've heard more from the buddhist side though.
So, speaking without thinking, thats refreshing? Because it's so rare? On the contrary. However It's seems to me this fellow can't stop thinking. His cleverness is so relaxing I'm hardly able to suppress my yawn.
If you watch closely you can see how Krishnamurti is completely free of reactivity. He's just expressing himself without the need to think about it. Therefore, he is completely comfortable with whatever happens to be presenting itself at that moment. It's a really beautiful thing to watch. Totally relaxing and refreshing at the same time.
K is no kind of a teacher here. He seems to philosophize for philosophies sake. Meditation, a problem? Order/disorder blah blah blah. He sounds adolescent.
Man i love Krishnaji, but geez why wont he clam up and let trungpa say something. It's as if k is uncomfortable with T's silence and he just can't shut the f*%k up....
the interesting thing is, there is no dialogue. Anyway, they didn't come together because they wanted to talk.Did they? It looks to me they were put there, for some kind of show, or experiment, to see what happens when you put them together...
I believe Krishnamurti would find his answer if he understood the principles of Vipassana meditation. No reptition of words - no imagination - only observing reality, as it is, in order to see truth and deal with it accordingly... without ego, without reaction, without craving or aversion
He was talking to a man once; the man was teaching Vipassana. Krishnamurti asked him about it. When he heard the answer he said: "Ah, that is not a method." Which means he aproved it.
K didn't give him a way to respond. For T to communicate he would have to establish enlightenment as a possibility but K threw that out. So T just related to the stimulas of the situation. How could he have said anything when Expierence is discarded you throw the baby out with the bath water. He denies that the ego can be dissolved while remaining in expeirence. expierence and transcendence are not seperate so the premise is flawed. there could have been no way to comment.
K and even Trungpa are viewing meditation from a limited perspective: a way of analyzing the mind. TM is mentioned and discarded. But breath control in pranayama and raja yoga is very valuable in bringing the mind to stillness for higher perception. Aside from that, I really like both guys. Trungpa is very humble here and K is right on about the obersavation of disorder bringing order.
Sir, who is it that controls the breaths? And what is it that makes the mind still, and what does higher perception mean? There is either perception or no perception. The stillness of the mind comes naturally when there is no control whatsoever. It is like holding mercury in your hand. If you hold your hand open, the mercury stays, if you close your hand to grasp it, it slips out from your hand. You see, it is still your ego that is controlling and doing your so called meditation.
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses - Krishnamurti's main human problem seems to be "total disorder"; quite understandable seeing him here acting and talking "completely out of order".
i like this one, to see disorder....first you must see then it becomes order but i guess saying it like that also sets a pattern to follow so don't look to solve it...look and watch to see the root of the disorder/problem
wow, Rinpoche is incredibly patient. notice how jiddu will ask him a question and trungpa waits to answer because he knows that jiddu is about to spit out some more, what a master
What I know is that Buddhism cannot be understood intellectually.
sacrface420 2 weeks ago
Mostly people are being too harsh on K who is at the end of his career with Trungpa who is at the beginning of his career. Trungpa is not very articulate and is not able to keep up with K, and K is not interested in slowing down much let Trungpa get up to speed in the discussion. It would have been more interesting conversation to see them both at their best rather than this one-sided conversation. Trungpa looks intoxicated, perhaps over medicated if this was after his accident.
GregoryWonderwheel 1 month ago
krishna totally misses the boat and when chogyam speaks he cut him off. he wants immediacy, answers and it doesn't work like that.. ha ha.. it is funny.. ii would like to hear chogyam speak though. hear his deep insights.. but he is with his practice of being with all phenomenal.. oh dear i can't help it krishna is a flake! ha ha !
Janewomanpower 1 month ago
HA HA HA ! I love how chogyam just listens. oh wait he just spoke, this krishna, i can't practice listening to this
Janewomanpower 1 month ago
I must say this was very amusing indeed. I love everything about it the Dan e between the absurdity of talking and the deep listening or perhaps the reverse who knows.
omshantibutterfly108 2 months ago
09:39 (part 1) + 4:55 (part 2) = 16.34 minutes - Krishnamurti keeps asking nonsensical, dumb questions. For almost 17 minutes, the freak that Krishnamurti is, keeps blabbering on and on, selling his half-informed subjective opinion of what he understands by meditation, what kind of sharing/discussing/examining "together" is this? Wasted Chogyam Trungpa's and 52000 other peoples' time.
0synesthete0 3 months ago
U mad bro?
irai1984 2 months ago
@0synesthete0 nothing K is asking is "nonsensical." If you think it is nonsensical then it just shows that you are not a meditator and have had no experiences beyond ordiary ways of thinking and attachment to discrimination.
GregoryWonderwheel 1 month ago
It's odd that so many comments point to a conflict or argument between these two, did I miss something?
It's clear that they both have different styles of communication, but I didn't see K trying to overpower Chogyam. In fact, I found Chogyam's act of listening to be an interesting part of this conversation.
Pretty energizing to see 2 of my favorite author's speak about such an interesting topic.
troygdaniel 4 months ago 2
I just began watching this, I'm on this second video and I must say this is very amusing : )
kookymunstar 5 months ago
Thank you for this amazing post!!!
diverbrent 5 months ago
K. does not recognize path of becoming, he in fact in his system, which is as simple as living in here and now, does not require meditations at all. He doesn't go that way. But he is right on his own, for himself. But many dual intellects will not grasp a tiny bit what he talks and will consider him a heretic. For them, some forms of paths of becoming are in fact useful for getting themselves one day to that point where Krishnamurti was...
CassiusChrysanthe 6 months ago
the best talks @ the YouTube-- two Masters at play..
=DDD)))))
P45million 6 months ago
JK: "if i may , TOGETHER (!!!) inquire into this question...."
and then he goes on talking and talking.............. I can understand if hes pissed by priests and brahmans and theosophs, but, man, he really needs to relax.
and whats wrong with chaos? whats wrong with order? Its so weird, 10 years ago I thought hes a genius, now I think its just bullshit. I wander what I will think of him next week
dyterdyter 8 months ago
@dyterdyter interesting. why do you think he is full of crap? Please I am not being cynical here but merely curious to share another thought. I find K not giving a chance to another to talk. Does he do that so that he would not loose his train of thought? Many things makes perfect sense.
tutor1006 5 months ago
"Unless a human being becomes a light to himself, nothing matters" - Krishnamurti.
Tao33316 9 months ago
The question of order comes down to a choice either obey the order or disobey the order.
vincikd007bg008 9 months ago
Disorder, of which K speaks, is the inherent nature of the egoic psyche. Investigating that disorder is part of the process of rectification that all ascendent beings undergo. Perfecting is not perfection. We start with our failings and frailties and we discover, examine and eliminate them. Life and its experiences are that process. The process serves to render the ego a flawless and useful part of the psychic mechanism. Once made transparent, this allows us to transcend our material limitations
Sueezedtight 10 months ago 2
I don't think it's one vs another teaching. Both their teachings point at the same thing.
Slicc7 10 months ago
I've already seen this movie from bollywood! 'Krishna vs the chinese'... At the end i remember Krishna wins...
JEANVIPERE 10 months ago
I have much respect for both men. The dynamic of their interaction itself is enlightening.
BecomingThePath 1 year ago
The two men have very different perspective constructs and it is difficult for the bridge to be built. K has his style of deconstruction which makes finding common ground difficult to recognize. K says he wants to understand why there is chaos and disorder. This is an important point. It challenges our "desire" to solve. K says to observe "what is disorder" in the manner that Bodhidharma said to his disciple Huike "show me your mind." "Observe disorder"is K's koan pointing to the nondual..
GregoryWonderwheel 1 year ago
Please. K is not saying meditation is bad, in fact in other videos it's quite clear he himself meditates, and prescribes it for understanding. He is saying that "meditation" as it comes, prepackaged to the west from Eastern cultures with certain set of actions you take etc is wrong. What meditation is is simply to think deeply about something to garner insight, but they way to do this lies with the individual, and not institutionalized methods of meditation. That's what I think anyway.
Iamthenoi 1 year ago
This makes me feel uncomfortable, watching K make a fool of himself, however this answers the only question i had of him. Thanks for the post. Peace
MrGongonzo 1 year ago
@MrGongonzo if you feel uncomfortable watching K, then it is not K who is the fool. K has a style that he uses to communicate and if the style gets in the way of hearing what he has to say, then that is sad for the person who has ears but can't hear.
GregoryWonderwheel 1 year ago
Lets not forget that Krishnamurti was 77 in this, 45 years his senior! Not to take anything from Trungpa ...Krishnamurti is just emphasizing that one should be inquiring Now and not putting it off for a later date maybe never...You cant be present in the future ... only now :)
Johnnybeak 1 year ago
I disagree with Krishnamurti...he fails to answer we are meditating already in daily lives even if we dont sit...
the very observation of disorder is due to idea of what order is in Krishmurti..
Krishnamurti liked to blow his own trumpet by saying " I have made it difficult for you to answer" . lot of judgements he is making through his "personal experience"..lol..while there Trunpa sits and feels compassion on the poor confused chap..
Krishnamurti looses his ground..haha ..he is restless
sherab67 1 year ago
Having associated with Buddhist religionists I don't disagree with K., and yet somehow he seems to miss the point. Is the problem he describes essential or accidental? Certainly the longest question Ive ever heard anyone ask too!
dollarability 1 year ago
krishnamurti is truly a man of few words
tashi108 1 year ago 12
@tashi108 hes the one who is always talking. Few words? more words means confusion.
zatoichiable 8 months ago
Comment removed
tashi108 8 months ago
@zatoichiable please google the term irony
tashi108 8 months ago
Comment removed
zatoichiable 8 months ago
@tashi108 Sorry about that, mate. my apology.
zatoichiable 8 months ago
@tashi108
LOL
jamesejudy3 4 months ago
man, Krishamurti's hair looks patently ridiculous.
jamesejudy3 4 months ago
Comment removed
docwhammo 1 year ago
The chubby Charlie Chan chappie looks a bit of a bruiser...
thegrandwazoooo 1 year ago
Last orders please
thegrandwazoooo 1 year ago
I like him (Krishnamurti), truly, but I don't see how following the in-and-out breaths creates any kind of problem. I meditate to calm the mind, to gain greater clarity and insight into the mind's workings, to experience a hour of peace and calm amidst the stresses of modern life...many reasons, all of them problem-free. In my experience, meditation leads to a state of knowing, of seeing, that is clearer than mere thinking could ever be.
hearts0ngs 1 year ago
@hearts0ngs
i agree. which of the two is whiggleing and moving around and which one is perfectly still majority of the time. Calmnes.
drohegda 1 year ago
@drohegda You are seeing just the superfitial. I can sit still, but maybe I´m feeling nervous. It is a fake stillness. Do you get it?
And krishnamurti is full of energy, he is FLOWING. Do you get it? Good!
FastAkira 1 year ago
@hearts0ngs Precisely, what non-sensical conclusion Krishnamurti comes to ! Meditation a problem... ridiculous.
He just didn't get that not all are born to the level that he was born with. Meditation instruction bring people to a pedestal that allows his to the enquiry that Krishnmurti is talking about. Very few people know that the very end of his life, he acknowledged that he did not get the deeper meanings of sound (mantra) meditation before !
matrixkarja 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Our world is hostage to the insatiable rampaging of the ruling class private gain and greed, dominating,dehumanising,devaluing everyone and everything in the midst. We can and must change the wage slavery of immense humanity in a market system of artificial scarcity . We can share the world for our common needs and well being in harmony within and without.
arzoyan 1 year ago
Meditation is experiencing the now and fulfilling ones true potential devoid of all egotistical delusions. The truth is in the now.
capper447 1 year ago
You get it know because you are listening, before you were waiting for an answer.. Jk does not give answers, he gives question so you can answer them your self.
Chullotron 1 year ago
Knowledge speaks and wisdom listens!!!! Indeed!!!
droolger 1 year ago
@droolger I agree but krishnamurti has wisdom too. and chogyam trungpa has knowledge. they are just playing roles.
jimmymoon 1 year ago
Ok I just got his pont in part 4 he took 30 minutes to get there I see where he is getting at his pace is just a little slow.
truthbeeeetold 1 year ago
This guy talked alot and really felt like I got nothing substantial out of it.. Its kind of strange because he speaks out of a very calm state which I can appreciate. But how can he be against meditation in a world so governed by the egoic mind and meditation is the release from that world and I way to get ascend from that. I am not saying one should sit in a room and meditate his whole life. Eventually you take the centered meditative state into the real world. Maybe I just dont get him??
truthbeeeetold 1 year ago
As a meditator, i can see where this brilliant man is going. Its my feeling, he is in perpetual meditation of life. He is observing life deeply. When he says he is against meditation , its sitting cross legged. In the meditative world, the highest state of meditation is to be in meditation as you live a normal life. When u cross the bridge of sitting meditation, this is where you reach
sunnyguy1010 1 year ago
I love both these guys, but Krishnamurti is a bit over the top in this conversation.
nilsmontan60 1 year ago
Well, that does seem to be one of Krishnamurti's contradictions: he refers to dialogs with others as, and I'm paraphrasing, "not as I the teacher speaking with authority -- I have no authority whatsoever -- but rather as two friends having a conversation." Then you see him, or hear him in recorded lecturers, insisting on dominating every conversation.
imjustpassinthru 1 year ago
I wish K would let Trungpa SPEAK for God's sake.
Ghengis66 1 year ago
ouch!
jjhaywood 1 year ago
this is so boring!!!!!!!!!!
miltonbeale 1 year ago
6:41- 6:43 "Well you can't find out intellectually" ... gold from Chogyam! In one fell swoop, Krishnamurti is smote. Krishnamurti's reply: "intellect is part of the whole structure" reveals that he is indeed a pretender.
This man should be recategorised as a philosopher NOT a spiritual man...there is no spirit in Krishnamurti.
MrGunwitch 1 year ago
@MrGunwitch ... There is no spirit in you either. I think that's his message. At the core of Buddhism is the doctrine of Anatman, or "no soul." The "soul" is fanciful projection of ego. We seek continuity, not only in this life but also in the hereafter. Krishnamurti never saw himself as a "spiritual" teacher. "Spirit" is loaded term and Krishnamurti avoided it for good reason. He was a philosopher, concerned more with how to ask the right questions than with answers and conclusions.
imjustpassinthru 1 year ago
Excellent. More please.
Haroldesp 1 year ago
Krishnamurti is on a far more advanced level altogether.
PseudoApollodorus 1 year ago
Chogyam Trungpa is drunk, that's all.
He doesn't want to give away the fact that he's drunk, so he doesn't talk much.
MrNewchange 1 year ago
Neither one of these clowns is qualified to sell carpets.
melcat63 1 year ago
dank ew
closetome 1 year ago
the one who talks less will appear the most wise in this case... since the topic is useless.
simonmanzer 1 year ago
Too bad no one had the guts to tell this vain little man to stop combing his hair forward to cover his bald spot. If someone had, it might have cured him of the rest of his narcicism. YUK!
melcat63 1 year ago
@melcat63 how could one sit through this discussion, being at all serious, and in the end declare that this man is narcissistic in any way?
SuperBlackMoth 1 year ago
To observe disorder with a religious concept of 'order', makes for more disorder. K is right here, the Buddhist seems to be a big water-headed baby full of beliefs and with no real experience of life. The real religion of Tibet is not Buddhism, but the Bon religion, a basically animistic religion but that had and has real knowledge about the spirits of nature and how to live in accordance with natural wisdom. Buddhism does the contrary, it's pure moralism.
ipublica 1 year ago
I wonder if Trungpa is being mindful to keep from slapping the dogshit from Krishnamurti's mouth or if he is drunk? Much like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know.
emptymonkeyfist 1 year ago
WOW. Thank you, Krishnamurti. I truly know of the TRUTH in his words. But my truth, or even his, can NEVER be yours.
Mindpetals 2 years ago
@Mindpetals shut up.
jjhaywood 1 year ago
@jjhaywood Love you!!!
Mindpetals 1 year ago
Krishnamurti is giving the non-sectarian, snow lion's milk (dzogchen) teaching to someone obviously blinded by their own 'sutra conditioning'. but this too is pure :)
jasperdrak 2 years ago 2
K's, desperate attempt in trying to engage an intellectual debate over meditation is so negatively disturbing. It really exposes an arrogance as well as one of a very critical nature.
knocknocking 2 years ago
I think K is / was always trying to arrive at the positive via negation. Language is the problem in conveyance.
Bruce88keys 2 years ago
K's, desperate attempt in trying to engage an intellectual debate over meditation is so negatively disturbing. It really exposes an arrogance as well as one of a very critical nature.
knocknocking 2 years ago
Its really pathetic to listen to Krishnamurhy against Meditation
MajoBeats 2 years ago
why ?
Mindpetals 2 years ago
Hey it's Trungpa the washed up sex addict
rogkeista 2 years ago
Trungpa is in good form. Krishnamurti is woefully naive and grasping.
Marumasa 2 years ago
why do you think this ?
Mindpetals 2 years ago
He's just arrogantly spitting sophistry at Trungpa, who listens mindfully and occasionally responds in such a way that has Krishnamurti rapidly convoluting and elaborating his point.
I have to admit I didn't watch the whole thing since it's largely useless at an intellectual level. Maybe it carries a shakti charge, but I didn't tune in for it.
Marumasa 2 years ago
I see... well thanks so much for sharing more of your view with me. I was curious about the sort of responses this video received. Blessings, Dave :)
Mindpetals 2 years ago
This order is disorder!
qxw667 2 years ago
What's up with this Krishnamurti, an Indian dude with a scarf, he is trying very hard to become a British Lord; and he is questioning meditation - just find it odd.
ptuli500 2 years ago
Check out the video on you tube (a documentary about his life and teachings) should answer your queries.
JusticeNature 2 years ago
you're an idiot number one
screenflicker1 2 years ago
Read up on his story, his connection with the Theosophical Society
Bruce88keys 2 years ago
lol nailed it
Marumasa 2 years ago
Brilliant !
punk2116 2 years ago 2
this is what happening on earth, we all have our own ideas, that makes us humans that makes us creatures of war. we will never have piece unless we truly start over, its the only way.. to forget our pass and see whats happening now.. and stop all this nonsense. the hunger the killing... everyone is looking for a savior, keep waiting.... we must save ourselves.....
Chullotron 2 years ago
K reminds me of a strange mix between C3P0 and Yoda. Thanks for the videos, they're incredibly enlightening.
shickboy 2 years ago 2
yeah totally !
punk2116 2 years ago
these comments from the rest of the listeners seem to have no understanding what soever what K is talking about, nor did chogyam had any observation to see what K was talking about, he is far gone and totally irrational that is so clear.
kaneiles20 2 years ago
this is a perfect example of "knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."
willford10 2 years ago 28
and that is your total misunderstanding of knowledge and wisdom.
jayrc11123 2 years ago
@willford10 When i first listen that video .. it was for Krishnamurti .. i stoped and started to read Trungpa .
I invite all the Krishnamurti fan to read is Biography .. really .
Spiritedbuddha 1 year ago
@willford10 No. It is a perfect example of: "Master speaks, monkeys listens".
You guys are full of shit
FastAkira 1 year ago
@willford10 Yes, if self knowledge reveals itself, only you can listen. If you are not listening you are denying yourself, isn't it? Stupid ignorant comments can easily be put without sensibility, but have some sensibility before commenting.
fullymasked 11 months ago
@willford10 why?
hpudgp 7 months ago
Wow this is hardly a debate. Kishnamutri seems to not even contemplate what Trungpa is saying.. its like talking to a wall. How dissapointing..i thought this would be something extraordinary but
Kishnamutri seems to be trying to put artificial order into this comversation. It is not fluid at all..
oneidKing 2 years ago
He is up against the Dharma Wheel, a powerful mechanical order that rolls at him from the powerful lamas that have order.
turbosamvara 2 years ago
Your Trungpa came from a buddhist school and he is bounded by that but not Krishnamurti, so obviously you feel he is talking to wall....wall made of buddhism. Get out, it is time to become a buddha of your own.
jayrc11123 2 years ago
KM asks and the same question rethorically himself for the first 5 minutes. To hear any semblance of dialogue, CT speaks at 5:00, 5:50, 6:41 and there is an interesting exchange (finally!..) at 7:21+ You decide what you get out of this,.. Noe, in part 1 of 5 KM never paused more than half a second, even after seemingly asking a question, to let CT answer.
I think he had no idea CT was not a newbie LOL
nycandre 2 years ago
Newbie...oldbie ...very arrogance of a immature mind. What is this membership to a rhetoric club...Analyse your own mind not the video....you will surprised with things you can find....that you thought exist.
jayrc11123 2 years ago
all sounds a bit disorderly
LUKEHAPPYSAD 2 years ago
Trungpa Rinpoche is drunk again
scotty123123 2 years ago
Yes Krishnamurti did look thirsty
UnknowablEnigma 2 years ago
krishnamurti - the 1st enlightened goblin!
ushojedi 2 years ago
I make my life wonderful. ox....
MistressPaulina 2 years ago
This is one of the reasons I find Jiddu such a pain to listen to: he insists on continuously talking, repeating the same thing over and over again, not giving a chance to the other person to even complete a sentence. Poor old Chögyam had to be satisfied with speaking in fragments of sentences.
prashnrao 2 years ago
lol
yeh possibly maybe
juanpolar 2 years ago
lolo
the gurus and all the gang
juanpolar 2 years ago
yes chogyam trungpa
with the silence and the look i
is tuning up
juanpolar 2 years ago
He's just drunk as a skunk, trying not to fall off his chair
superdeluxesmell 2 years ago 3
this is probably the best video of Krishnamurti that I have seen.
I think it's thanks to rinpoche chogyam trungpa, because of the energy that they both have!
Thanks for the video, greatly appreciated
behemoth2299 2 years ago 3
Listening to K again,he asks if "meditation is a way of trying to escape life" or facing it directly.I've learned that it is about facing it directly.Analytical meditation has always forced me to face things,understand it,then clear the mind.
CulturePeaceForever 2 years ago
Great video, excellent dialogue.
BrianTheMusicMan 2 years ago
Chogyam is to be commended for not reaching for his whiskey flask during the interview.
melbavideos 2 years ago 22
if you had to listen to km droning on you'd take to drink
gerundino98 2 years ago
@melbavideos ....or his dick.
GetMeThere1 1 year ago
@melbavideos I would have commeded him if he openly did.
RonAlmeida 1 year ago
@melbavideos The activities of a Mahasiddha are not necessarily well-understood from the point of view of the conventional understanding.
Frozeal 1 year ago
@melbavideos God knows I reached for mine...
jonald32z 1 year ago
@melbavideos lol
HzAKhiN 1 year ago
@melbavideos lol yeah. and so many consider him a genius. i bet his liver was blowing up even at this point
vajraloka1 11 months ago
NO! meditating is NOT escaping.Meditation brings the meditator deep into oneself and face to face with the truth or untruths you need to work with,discover is the best for one,and get rid of the rest!
CulturePeaceForever 2 years ago
I think his point is to negate the hucksterism of 'pop meditation' -- pop your fav cd, drop your yoga mat, mutter some mantras, stretch a little, whoops time's up -- rinse and repeat, and one can supposedly bank that enlightenment will follow.
fhumayun 2 years ago 2
Do you mean they can't solve things "intellectually"because of peoples' "egos"which always gets in the way,in a somewhat challenging way?i.s"Khrsh.thinks he's more intellectual than Chogyam,& viceversa? "disorder"never occur if you are a total"yes-man"(that's a saying though....In buddhism,There is not inherent existence,so even that would be a "label"and not cause "disorder."if one has perfect"emptiness'pheew.
CulturePeaceForever 2 years ago
marijuana
solargazing69 2 years ago
Krishnamurti's Book,The Impossible Question was interesting,however,he should know,Buddha taught in a multitude of ways,being effective to the multitude of ways different peoples learn!!!!
CulturePeaceForever 2 years ago 2
I believe K repeatedly pointed out to the fossilization of (authentic) teachings that follow from not making a 'direct' experience for oneself. On record, he was staunchly against the deifying of persons (especially in how they would lead to the organizing of 'enlightenment' authorities). Like any good pointer of non-duality, he also points that Life itself is the greatest teacher... and not a preference in idolatory.
fhumayun 2 years ago 2
I have really tried to understand JK and give him a chance--I really have--but I find him generally incomprehensible. Just take note of his nervousness and self-consciousness: he doesn't like meditating, but I think he probably would have benefited from it. I would say he has a point but I don't think he is really saying anything.
seanmeggeson 2 years ago
For seanmeggeson: Krishnamurti meditated every day and he even was able to levitate during his meditations. He does not appear nervous to me. He is just very alert. What he is saying is that we must question everything. This is also what Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche taught. Krishnamurti asks people to question transcendental meditation, because it leads people away from total alertness. There are different schools of meditation. None of them are bad or wrong. Krishnamurti supports alertness.
nicolatwo 2 years ago
thank you for this reply.
seanmeggeson 2 years ago
For seanmeggeson: Sure. I think I have met you before. Are you Derrick Jensen's girlfriend? You look like her.
nicolatwo 2 years ago
???! Uhm...I am a guy, so no, I am not Derrick gf, nor have I ever been ;)
wearesofcckedtrailer 2 years ago
For wearesofcckedtrailer: I was talking to seanmeggeson. I looked at her channel and she is a woman who looks like Derrick's girlfriend. Maybe sometimes the replys get linked by the system to the wrong comments.
nicolatwo 2 years ago
J.K. is one person I would never want to rely on in a crisis.
NaytronNeanderer 2 years ago
What K is trying to tell us is the big mistake everyone is making. We adopt a concept of suffering given to us by some guru, and try to overcome the concept. If only the seeker could see the futility of such attempts. There's only one result to doing this and it is failure. Frustrated, we move on to adopt another teaching. To observe what is going on in the whole field of consciousness without holding anything back & without preconceptions of what is to be observed is the best teaching there is.
spliff221 2 years ago
Krishnamurti was a light to this world. He was so far ahead of his time that most people had a hard time keeping up with him. We want someone to tell us what to do. We want a preset mode of thinking and living to conform to. Scarcely do we venture out on our own into new territory. K wants us to find for ourself that if we conform to a pattern we can't possibly know freedom. Once a man who really wants freedom sees that he won't waste a minute on ready made attempts to arrive at liberation.
0hmprakash 3 years ago 5
What the hell is Murti saying? Be a lamp unto yourself. Is that it? The Buddha said that 2500yrs ago. He also gave us a path. What does Murti give us? Come on, Nietzsche said all this much, much better.
EverLivingFire 3 years ago 3
krishnamurti spewing at chogyam trungpa is like a mouse queaking at a lion.
uhkolieb 3 years ago
why do anything at all! krishnamurti talks as if meditation is a hassle, a problem. meditation is a pleasing experience for me.
jp1989at 3 years ago
Krishnamurti is cool. Totally unself-conscious and free
scotty123123 3 years ago
that asian guy is useless
Rahab111222 3 years ago
They are both Asians
tbutt1956 3 years ago
Krishnaji is the man. Tackle those burnt out boulder buddhists!
nfoxclimb 3 years ago
This isn't necessarily relevant, but I find Krishnamurti's body language really annoying. His gesticulation, staring, and movements are more creepy than graceful.
jonald32z 3 years ago
Listening in choiceless awareness, not what can I get out of this, not how I do or don't agree, no trying to second guess the questioner or the responder, only totally focussed attention on the question itself to see where it ends up. Try it and smile. The assumptions about body language are the projections of our own data base which may have no bearing whatsoever on what is actually going on for K. jonald32z listening past our own chatter takes true affection for other fellow beings. Peace
mereanataki 2 years ago
He is right from his point of view (God bless his soul), but he forgets that meditation in any form connects us to truth.
Consciousness develop easier when we have stillness of the mind and a relaxed body. Ultimately we should not need to meditate, but most humans are so lost that they need a connection or routine to get back to basics....
The journey within is a holy path that is necessary for some to connect with the supreme being. The higher self.
mrjcbar 3 years ago
Like Groucho said:
He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot.
albertres 3 years ago
Krishnamurti is simply trying to say that adding meditation is one more condition to be removed. He's trying to get to the root of the problems. I do wish that I could've heard more from the buddhist side though.
musicluvah1981 3 years ago
that's one long question. does he ever let him answer?
lilaemilybaby 3 years ago 7
to be honest i dont rem what he said in part 1. my philosophy is simplicity. a teaching should be short, simple and meaningful.
khamtu 3 years ago 2
So, speaking without thinking, thats refreshing? Because it's so rare? On the contrary. However It's seems to me this fellow can't stop thinking. His cleverness is so relaxing I'm hardly able to suppress my yawn.
christygeorg 3 years ago 2
If you watch closely you can see how Krishnamurti is completely free of reactivity. He's just expressing himself without the need to think about it. Therefore, he is completely comfortable with whatever happens to be presenting itself at that moment. It's a really beautiful thing to watch. Totally relaxing and refreshing at the same time.
ivorbernhart 3 years ago
K is no kind of a teacher here. He seems to philosophize for philosophies sake. Meditation, a problem? Order/disorder blah blah blah. He sounds adolescent.
christygeorg 3 years ago
joeyayoub, I think in this situation krishnamurti may have had more of the role of teacher and rinpoche more the role of student.
asdf2000 3 years ago
que bien
lrlslrls 3 years ago
Man i love Krishnaji, but geez why wont he clam up and let trungpa say something. It's as if k is uncomfortable with T's silence and he just can't shut the f*%k up....
reicheroni 3 years ago 5
the interesting thing is, there is no dialogue. Anyway, they didn't come together because they wanted to talk.Did they? It looks to me they were put there, for some kind of show, or experiment, to see what happens when you put them together...
zhuowen 3 years ago 2
I believe Krishnamurti would find his answer if he understood the principles of Vipassana meditation. No reptition of words - no imagination - only observing reality, as it is, in order to see truth and deal with it accordingly... without ego, without reaction, without craving or aversion
Haliotro 3 years ago 4
He was talking to a man once; the man was teaching Vipassana. Krishnamurti asked him about it. When he heard the answer he said: "Ah, that is not a method." Which means he aproved it.
tamedmind 3 years ago
Wow. That's interesting. Thanks.
Do you remember where you encountered that?
Haliotro 3 years ago
I found it in one of Krishnamurti`s biographies.
tamedmind 3 years ago
k. is on an anarchical wave here.... he has caught the imagination of the buddhist scholars.... including Rahula....
BombayRepertoire 3 years ago
K didn't give him a way to respond. For T to communicate he would have to establish enlightenment as a possibility but K threw that out. So T just related to the stimulas of the situation. How could he have said anything when Expierence is discarded you throw the baby out with the bath water. He denies that the ego can be dissolved while remaining in expeirence. expierence and transcendence are not seperate so the premise is flawed. there could have been no way to comment.
DorjeDriftwood 3 years ago 2
K and even Trungpa are viewing meditation from a limited perspective: a way of analyzing the mind. TM is mentioned and discarded. But breath control in pranayama and raja yoga is very valuable in bringing the mind to stillness for higher perception. Aside from that, I really like both guys. Trungpa is very humble here and K is right on about the obersavation of disorder bringing order.
Squirrel347 3 years ago
Sir, who is it that controls the breaths? And what is it that makes the mind still, and what does higher perception mean? There is either perception or no perception. The stillness of the mind comes naturally when there is no control whatsoever. It is like holding mercury in your hand. If you hold your hand open, the mercury stays, if you close your hand to grasp it, it slips out from your hand. You see, it is still your ego that is controlling and doing your so called meditation.
wonderwhaz797 3 years ago
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses - Krishnamurti's main human problem seems to be "total disorder"; quite understandable seeing him here acting and talking "completely out of order".
Jay2Cees 3 years ago
awesome
shunyata2 3 years ago
I agree with Yadsik. This is remarkable and beautiful.
sushuddha 3 years ago
Very theatrical. Content and form interlace.
Jihunn 3 years ago
Thanks for posting this.
Try Douglas Harding on youtube and the Headlessway website for a space for both disorder and order.
FacetonoFace 3 years ago
i like this one, to see disorder....first you must see then it becomes order but i guess saying it like that also sets a pattern to follow so don't look to solve it...look and watch to see the root of the disorder/problem
Jangaboo 3 years ago 2
wow, Rinpoche is incredibly patient. notice how jiddu will ask him a question and trungpa waits to answer because he knows that jiddu is about to spit out some more, what a master
michmj77 3 years ago 6
complexity & simplicity in action!
flakepod 3 years ago 3