@Treblaine LOL you said everything, except for the truth of course, thats always your failure point, truth. The truth is the exact opposite of everything you've said. findarticles(.)com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457285/ americanrifleman(.)org/ArticlePage(.)aspx?id=2043&cid=19 craigcentral(.)com/fearnot(.)htm
There is the truth^
BTW your cowardly tactic, don't address me just make a comment to try to have the last word, bully tactics personified by you Fecal liquor LOL
@bigboss686 You're a bully and a liar, yet you think you can bully and lie your way out of that.
But you're only fooling yourself.
I'm done with this, I've refuted everything you have said and now you are just repeating yourself. I hope you don't treat any other person like the way you have treated me.
@Treblaine If you really think that I feel sorry for you, you really are delusional. I've done nothing but post evidence by people like Ernest Langdon, Massad Ayoob, Angus Hobdell, Todd Jarrett an Rob Leatham. Of course they're all liars too because no one's allowed to disagree with you.
No the only delusional liar here is you, said you were finished with this discussion, yet here you are again, proof positive you're a liar.
Bully complex too, because you have to have the last word
@Treblaine Your accusations sad, you NEVER provide anything truthful to back your claims, an when you try(14 failures VS 31) you lie by omission, leaving out information. Your kind constantly suggests those you disagree with lack knowledge, while you commit every logical fallacy under the sun. This is just a front to hide your own ignorance, self-loathing, mediocrity and lack of critical ability. You constantly try to weasel out of everything and shame anyone who challenges you. Sad
BTW the first shot is irrelevant to the trigger reset argument, you even admitted a few posts ago that the SA for the second shots all that mattered and was shorter than the previous double action as it did not reset all the way to DA Distance.
Of course, you change your story to fit whatever wild accusation you want to throw at the time so it's not surprising. You can't keep your lies straight. just like you can't stop sucking dick for rent money because you're too stupid to do anything else.
@bigboss686 I admitted SA was all that mattered for CZ-75 cocked&locked! Not for the M9 with that decocking safety! You're making a (poor) straw man argument about trigger reset. It doesn't change how M9 has a bad 12-lbs initial DA pull that you cannot easily get around in service use. First shot is the most valuable one, yet on M9 it's the hardest and inconsistent requiring an extra layer of training and things to go wrong.
@Treblaine Trying to change the subject again? Pathetic distortions are all you've got. Trigger reset, which is your argument, has nothing to do with weight. The heavy spring is for primer ignition reliability/second strike capability, that on Gaston's crap? NOPE.
Your claim of extra training is yet another lie, it's identical to any DA/SA platform in training requirements, only difference is you push your thumb up instead of down. Or as you prefer to do, up your ass then lick it
@bigboss686 The subject is M9's unsuitability in all aspects, which is not limited to your insistence of Trigger-reset's irrelevance. The long reset is one of many problems with M9.
You overvalue primer impact force, if first trigger pull fails to fire, Clint Smith teaches to just rack the slide to next round as it is more likely a dud.
It was YOU who claimed extra training, extra training in how to be accurate with long heavy DA pull.
@Treblaine Cont: LIE.M9's unsuitability in all aspects. TRUTH
Questions about M9’s shootability have gone by the wayside. Through the years at Camp Perry, Berettas accurized in the style of David Sams an military marksmanship training units have surpassed the best M1911s in the winners’ circles in Distinguished and President’s Hundred events. IDPA an IPSC national championships have been won with Beretta 92s “street-tuned” by such ’smiths as Ernest Langdon. Source Massad Ayoob
@bigboss686 That's M9 vs M1911 becomes a 9mm vs .45 comparison, Rob Leatham goes on of the competition advantages of 9mm-1911 (though conceded on issue of stopping power) and you are talking of "turned" M9s which is NOT economical nor practical for M9 in actual military service.
The CZ, Glock and Sig, etc win more competitions with stock right out the box configuration while being objectively more suited to combat in terms of weight + safety-ergonomics.
@Treblaine Cont DISTORTION M9 VS 1911 is a 9 vs 45 debate TRUTH caliber has nothing to do with it, that's irrelevant to the battery of arms for training, no matter what caliber is used for training is the same, presentation, safety disengagement, sight picture etc. DISTORTION in order to be viable, you must have the most competition wins TRUTH the m9 has a plethora of competition victories, more than enough to justify its exceptional quality. both accessorized, an stock configuration
Just because he finds the activity disgusting doesn't mean he has any bigotry, unless you find no legal activity disgusting? in that case you're just a sicko pervert.
@EdEmKay No, I'm "having a go" because your PC addled brain cant understand the difference between somebody finding something disgusting and someone being a bigot.
Someone who eats peanut butter with their fingers is "disgusting" to some people, does that mean they're prejudiced towards them? Nope, just means they think their behavior is gross.
@bigboss686 thats a false analogy. someone chooses to have disgusting behaviour, noone chooses to be homosexual. im not pc, im simply saying its strange seeing a film where homosexuality clearly wasnt accepted yet, which is why they put this in a film. simply by the fact you're trying to insult me, and the fact you look like a cunt in your profile picture, im ending this argument now.
@EdEmKay No it isn't, just because behavior might be "natural" for some person doesn't mean that you have to approve of it or else you're a bigot, dummy.
Always loved this scene. Just as Dirty Harry Callahan made the S&W Model 29 famous, Martin Riggs (and John McClane) did the same for the Beretta 92F! Great film from a great decade.
People's natural reaction is to flynch or blink when firing a gun. And you CAN talk to people with the earmuffs on as well...you just have to talk louder, which they are. Has no one posting ever been to a firing range before? Come on guys
i count and mel shot 9 rounds at the first time and change magazine :)) what the shit i love 80's and beretta 92f/fs/sb/sb-c/billenium/centurion/brigadier and i love mel gibson man
What the hell you're talking about, it's normal he's flinching each time he fires , this gun is very powerful, he's the best actor ever that holywood has known, shut ur traps and learn something from him !!
@Tennessee0331 well to be exact it was an old Springfield rifle haha I dont play call of duty, i just used the genaric term for a high power semi-automatic rifle with a scope.
@Treblaine Beretta makes a damn good firearm. I owned a 92F for several years and never had a problem with it. Finally had to upgrade to a 40 cal and went with a Glock as they are easier to work on, but I miss the Beretta.
@CoolBreezeClub Beretta 92's are good guns. Accurate, controllable and they look GREAT.
I just get the feeling that a lot of Beretta 92's wider success came from its US Army adoption and its prominent and distinctive feature in 2 major Hollywood action series (Lethal Weapon and Die Hard). Because the vital statistics of size, weight, trigger, safety operation and durability it doesn't seem that competitive.
Still one of the sexist handguns ever made (that isn't a revolver)
@Treblaine 92FS vital statistics are on par with any other full-size. Its size and weight aren't that much different than the Sig P226 or comparable non-polymer handguns. It's a trade-off, weight vs controllability, durability is top-notch on par with anything else and safety operation is a training issue. Nothing inherently problematic with the gun.
BTW slap an 18lb 1911 mainspring in it an the 92FS has one of the nicest triggers of any semi auto pistol with full reliability intact
@bigboss686 Beretta M9/92 slide is 50% wider than the Browning HP, a double-stack steel pistol made in 1935! Beretta 92 is made of weaker aluminium yet still heavier than Browning HP. Weight/size is a poor compromise over recoil.
M9 pistol has NOT proven to be durable, it has proven to break frequently and easily. The safety issues are an unnecessary burden on training that jeopardise lives.
PS: Beretta 92/M9 has inherently poor trigger which is MORE than mere weight.
@Treblaine Guess you don't know much about metallurgy. Tensile strength is certainly not weaker, that's a myth. Sigs had 0 problem using aluminum in there 220 series pistols and they're some of the most durable ever created. Also, the M9 has proven to be extremely durable, early on there were lockingblock issues but those were corrected long ago. The safety being an issue is user error/bad training. Not a design defect. An the 92 has an exceptional trigger, just switch the spring.
@bigboss686 My problem is not with the material but with the design, Beretta uses a great material like Aluminium yet made a pistol heavier than the all-steel Browning HP of 1935. Poor design. M9 DOES have problems not because of material but design!
M9 has NOT proven durability, it has a long history of catastrophic failures.
The safety IS slower to use than all the contemporary designs (cocked+locked or Glock-safety). "Exceptional" is the word for M9 trigger, exceptionally poor. Long reset etc
@Treblaine So first aluminum with a weak material but now it's back to track time, because you realized you got called on your mistake LOL. If you don't like the shape/weight that's fine, that's your OPINION, but those are NOT design flaws because they clash with your "personal" style. Catastrophic failures is MYTH. 9000 locking blocks malfunctioned the first year, they re-designed it an since then it's had an exceptional run. The notion of unreliability is an unfortunate urban legend
@bigboss686 Well Aluminium is weaker (tensile strength is not the ONLY strength) I agree with you Aluminium can be as strong and lighter than steel but Beretta screwed up with the 92/M9's design. I never stated subjective option, I stated the fact that Beretta is bigger and heavier than a gun to same-brief that is 40 years older (browning HP).
Tell it too the Navy SEAL who saw it that the Catastrophic failures are a myth. The solution merely reduces the danger of explosion, not the probability.
@Treblaine So first aluminum is weaker, then it isn't then it is again LOL, make up your mind, which is it? Oh that right, it's whichever you want at the time. Also, stop saying design flaw, your understanding of the term is nonsensical, Size/weight would only be a design flaw if they would have not been designed to be that way in the first place, they don't impede functionality, they merely offend opinion, and yours is opinion, NOT fact. As for the rest of your nonsensical OPINION
@bigboss686 You're imagining things on what I ACTUALLY said about Aluminium.
The design flaw is evident in its pattern of failures.
Size/Weight is also an issue of design; aim was surely to be objectively better than the competition and they failed at that. Unless they had lower standards than of 1935 (when the Browning HP went into full production).
Please stop mixing up fact/opinion also stop saying "nonsensical" when this makes perfect sense. You seem to be contriving a "Chewbacca Defence".
@Treblaine No, first you said it was too weak and prone to failure then said it was just fine, the comments on the second page. Also, that you think the M9 is not an improvement in reliability and durability above the hi-power only shows how little you understand about design, as I'll explain in a moment. your problem is that you cannot think rationally in regard to the arguments being made, you keep confusing fact with opinion when you obviously don't know the facts. I do know FACT
@bigboss686 Nope, I said "aluminium is weaker" than steel because it is. With good design it can be strong enough but M9 has those patterns of failures under loads other pistols survived.
I think you will find it is you conflating fact and opinion. "rationality" does not mean "agreeing with bigboss686".
@Treblaine Sorry, again you are wrong. If you're hypothesis about aluminum frame (note the locking block/slide on the M9 is steel) were true then the sig P220 series would suffer the same frailties as they both use the same aluminum frame. Yet it does not. Also, other guns didn't "survive those loads" during testing it digested every load as efficiently as any other. BTW There's no question that you are conflating fact and opinion. "rationality" does not mean "agreeing with Treblaine"
@Treblaine Off safety is the same speed if a gun is C&L or not, you sound exceptionally ignorant making that statement. Your dislike of the trigger is nonsensical, trigger reset is merely the latest excuse for poor trigger control, certainly nothing that's an issue for defensive drills. My guess would be your an extremely novice shooter who spent too much time on Internet forums given all the mistakes you make, either that or you're just incredibly ill-informed.
@bigboss686 Safety is slower considering the need for a long DA pull and the higher slide-mounted safety. Its definitely slower than a glock! You are the one making endless excuses for the Beretta 92/M9. Tell me why a long trigger reset is so great except FOR novice shooters to make them safer from poor trigger control?
I have made no mistakes (aluminium IS weaker than steel, except in a few narrow areas), you keep mistaking the facts I state as opinion then dismissing them!
@Treblaine Part 2 Only 9000 92's had failures and those failures because the seals were running high pressure SMG ammo in them, any gun fails when you use ammo it's NOT in-spec for, however, the modified locking block negated the failures. Also, comparing a gun that doesn't have a safety to one that does is stupid, different design, doesn't mean it's "flawed" unless you consider the 1911 flawed. Seals use what they want, some units still issue 1911's and yes, some use the M9 today
@bigboss686 Beretta M9 was supposed to be rated for the +P rounds the SEALs used, it WAS in-spec. Also the SEALs and most US SF groups almost universally refused the weapon even after the "fix".
It is not stupid to compare it with Glock just because it has a trigger safety, the designs are different but the role is the same. Glock is objectively better choice as hi-cap 9mm pistol for military. Also Browning HP is objectively better.
@Treblaine SMG ammo is rated +P+=42,000 psi NOT +P=38,500psi. Some SMG is over 48'000psi yet only 9000 failures occurred, after redo pretty much 0% failure. 2 Design is different you cannot compare it any more than you can compare a baseball player and basketball player. BTW Hi-power's not rated to use +P in a steady diet still not advised for it today. Also, the thin slide negates heavy +P usage, the Glock slide is thicker than the Hi-power as well, guess its design flawed too. LOL
@bigboss686 The design brief for the M9 pistol was it must use all 9mm ammo in US military stock. What is the POINT of calibre compatibility if it cannot use the SMG ammo? Glock can handle that ammo all day every day, same with SIG and MODERN variants of the Browning HP.
Beretta has same size grip (circumference + width) as the Glock 21! A pistol undeniably notorious for being too large in the grip, though it was double-stack of 13 .45ACP rounds!
@Treblaine US military stock, not NATO stock which can run up to 50,000 psi. I know for a fact Israeli SMG ammo has been known to run at 50,000 psi. So claiming any gun can handle 48-50,000 psi ammunition all day long only shows your ignorance, NO manufacturer makes that claim. As far as the grip being fairly beefy, so what? it was designed to have more capacity than the Browning an the P226 is hardly small, just childish nitpicking on your part, it doesn't hurt the functionality.
@bigboss686 US military stock includes NATO stock. NATO standard is one of the main reasons of the move from .45 to 9mm.
Glock has been torture tested with +P+ 9mm ammo without catastrophic failures. Beretta M9 (to channel the meme): OVER NINE THOUSAND!
"So what if beefy stock?" Because that's a poor standard! It is bigger than any other double-stack 9mm pistol! Bigger than P226! There are flush-fitting Browning HP mags of 15-round capacity!
@Treblaine Unlike you I do research rather than relying on worthless opinion. Turns I was mistaken about NATO ammo. However, I was also mistaken about the M9's reliability, IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN I THOUGHT LOL
sightm1911(.)com/lib/history/true_story_m9(.)htm
Also look up 92FS torture test by Christopher Bartocci
Enjoy your humble pie, FACT is always better than your worthless opinion. FYI, Glock Kaboom everyone knows that's true, right? Again, use fact, not your worthless opinion
@bigboss686 The source you provide agrees with me on excessive size/weight and criticises the trigger, concluding M9 is "far from perfect" reiterating servicemen's concerns.
Christopher Bartocci's test was without a control but 92FS destroyed after 17'500 rounds WITHOUT extreme conditions. Typical glock torture tests like extreme temp, oily/salt-water contamination and drop/impact tests with as many rounds without failure.
Saying "Glock Kaboom" how is that fact? That's meaningless conjecture.
@Treblaine Again, size/weight are subjective, you have little girl hand it's a problem. That DOES NOT equate to a design defect, doesn't impede functionality. Bartocci proves the M9 is more than adequate, number of people who will run 17K of 9mm/+P/+P+ through one is very small, just as the FACT that since 88 the M9 has had 0 issues in military service, 23 years of military reliability speaks for itself. BTW Larry Vickers Glock torture test contradicts your childish image of the Glock
@bigboss686 You're just repeating what I have already disputed only adding in lame attempts at insulting my masculinity. My masculinity shouldn't have to compensate for a poor design with a grip more like a 2x4 wood block! There ARE people with small hands in the US Military and the M9 is too big for them to fire effectively. A smaller grip would also suit those with big "macho" hands.
@Treblaine LOL I said little girl hands to illustrate small hands, funny you're so insecure you took it personally. Also, I see your argument has evolved, before your calling it design flaw, now it's poor design, sadly trying to give yourself wiggle room to save face from your previous blunders. you're the one that applied rigidity at the start of this, now you want fluidity? I accept your intellectual surrender
Sooting daddy's glock in the backyard doesn't make you a gun expert kid
@Treblaine The danger of a short reset are essentially two, one an unintentional or early shot. This is especially true for DA/SA Beretta, SIG, H&K etc. type guns. Here we transition from a long, heavy trigger pull to a short reset, short travel to fire, light trigger. What felt like necessary pressure on the trigger for the DA shot, is excessive and can break a second shot prematurely.
@Treblaine I never said a consistent trigger was a bad thing, I said trigger reset was irrelevant. But of course for you it's easier to build strawmen that actually debate the points I bring up.
Consistency of trigger pull is definitely a plus, but the Army was not looking for a single action pistol. Right or wrong, they wanted a DA/SA design, and all the FACTUAL information on its reliability/durability prove (in links to army test's i posted) their choice was correct.
@bigboss686 Straw men of making strawmen argument: Strawception!
The US army doesn't want a DA/SA pistol just for the sake of that mechanism, they wanted a simpler to use weapon than the cocked and locked Colt M1911! Simple trigger pull, no worry about if it is cocked.
It may have become that, but that is where they lost sight of their ultimate goal of a better pistol.
@Treblaine The Army most certainly did want a double action style pistol, perhaps not the transferred single action, but definitely a double action pistol.
BTW Don't say, they should've gone with Glock, first of all, it wasn't submitted when the test started in the 70s.
@bigboss686 Wait, are you saying it took over-5 years for the US DoD to decide? Nope, Glock was an option since 1983 where it was submitted for XM9 Trials (well before the 1985 adoption) but only unofficially initial examination, it was The DoD who mysteriously refused admission to trials. (Kasler)
If the US-DoD did limit the XM9 trials to DA/SA pistols then they were being arbitrary and not serving the purpose of finding a new service pistol.
@Treblaine Must really burn your ball less scrotum that the Army told Gaston to take his Glock and shove it up his ass LOL Glock perfection, indeed. House appropriations study was in 78, 92s-1 was submitted in 79. BTW I want real link's two real evidence, not your worthless opinion. BTW thegunzone(.)com/glock/glock-kb-faq(.)html Nothings perfect, especially slow witted doofus peddling opinion, like you. Playing with daddy's glock in the backyard don't make you a weapon expert kid
@bigboss686 More aggressive insults attempting to attack my masculinity...
Why would the House make decisions on equipment that the DoD should decide?
You KNOW everything I've said is true: M9's size, weight, safety and trigger.
Nothing is perfect, but I think Glocks and Sigs overall preference by different law enforcement agencies across the US and around the world says enough.
Beretta won the XM9 trials by being the lowest bidder, not by excelling over competition like Sig. You know this.
@Treblaine Scores? Ok,Reliability M9 trial scores MRBF (mean rounds between failures) the Beretta was 2000, SIG 1000, Endurance test:SIG P226 developed frame crack at 6,523 rounds; another at the end of the 7k test.All Beretta 92SB-F guns and all 3 H&K guns made it through no problems according to DOD, Reliability testing (wet/dry phase): Beretta 92SB-F, 97%/98%, SiG P226, 98%/79%.
Reliability testing (salt water corrosion):after 10 days, Beretta 92SB-F 100% SIG P226 100% piss off
@bigboss686 So they both passed and Beretta DID win by being the lowest bidder. The XM9 trials completely failed to compare size/weight and arbitrarily eliminated non-DA/SA pistols.
XM9 trials were disputed so much that the M11 pistol was later procured for where the M9's shortcomings were just unworkable.
@Treblaine LMAO you realize the p226 weighs 34 ounces right? Meaning it weighs 1 more ounce than the M9. Shooting yourself in the foot with your size/weight argument dunce. Oh yah, "shortcomings" of the M9 were so severe the military ordered an underwhelming less than 8000 M11 pistols, mostly dispersed to military law enforcement (AFOSI) (NCIS) (USACIDC) etc. 2,062 M11 pistols being the largest placement to one agency. So 8000 M11's ordered VS 1.5 million M9's... you suck at this.
@bigboss686 The Aluminium Frame P226 is 870g; Beretta 92FS = 960g; Glock 17 = 625g (all with empty mags). Source: world.guns.ru
You have nothing but excuses. A good service pistol should not need so many excuses.
I don't think there is anything more to say, the actual problems with the M9 pistol are irrefutable, only excusable by LOW standards. You make excuses just like the US DoD, because they have incentive to stick with decision they made, it's too hard to reverse M9 procurement.
@Treblaine Glock was unacceptable to DOD, probably because they explode SOURCE thegunzone(.)com/glock/glock-kb-faq(.)html That leaves the 226 and M9, M9 is lighter and that negate your idiot arguments on weight
Low standards? I posted the trial scores for the M9 and the 226 in MRBF, Endurance, wet/dry phase testing and salt water corrosion. M9 scored identically or BETTER than the 226 in ALL those tests. You=not smart
Your the one with nothing but excuses, and androgenous genitalia
@Treblaine Yes, facts, figures and logical reasoning have no affect on you, that's obvious. OMG Leatham shot revolver, a couple times, that's poisoned his finger for detecting a decent trigger on anything. LOL damn your a stupid bitch. It's a strawman introducing Glock in the first place, it wasn't considered. Colonel Jeff Cooper said the CZ 75 was the greatest 9 mm ever made, so what? It wasn't considered same as Glock. the choice was between the M9 an 226, test numbers back the M9
@bigboss686 Leatham is a straw man argument. Not everyone is (or even can be) as good as him nor shoot the same as him. It's not a straw man to introduce Glock as it was unreasonably rejected by the DoD who are guilty of straw-manning, limiting XM9 trials to P226-vs-92FS and then deciding on fractionally lower bidder (yay, cheaper replacement parts).
(Also, learn the difference between "your" and "you're").
@Treblaine Leatham is one of a half-dozen pro shooters the FBI tested to determine trigger reset irrelevant. But I love your rationale, trigger reset is an advanced technique, so of course a novice can use it better than the best shooters in the world LMAO. Learn what a strawman is/means, it makes you look all the stupider that you don't know. Unreasonably objected in your OPINION, always opinion with you, nothing else. BTW resort to grammar Nazi= instant intellectual surrender fag
@bigboss686 The problem with trigger reset is not returning the trigger enough to reset. If there is a LONGER reset (as with 92FS) then that problem is exacerbated.
You can use full-reset on a trigger with a short-reset (Glock) with less chance of short-stroking in fog of war where one may fail to extend finger quite enough. Surely that is better. That's not mere opinion, that's reasoned logic.
(You hurl insults like "stupid bitch" and "fag" yet claim I have intellectually surrendered?)
@Treblaine You do realize the M9s DA/SA right? Subsequent shots(only ones relevant to reset) in SA have a trigger reset that's what .002 longer? That is non-perceivable under stress, as FBI testing has proven. What do you know about fog of war shooting daddy's glock in your backyard kid? It go off and you have to change your Pampers? Now, post some numbers to back your claim, reset distance glock vs M9, to prove long reset. After all, you should be used to measuring short things
@bigboss686 Larry Vickers declares "the average shooter will shoot a Glock better than a Beretta."
Glock has 3.17mm trigger reset, is that the case for 92FS? I can't find a measurement source but so many empirical comparisons declare the 92FS having one of the longest SA resets of all pistols. Also, Glock has lower bore-line for less muzzle flip.
PS: why doesn't Leatham use a 92FS? Maybe even as a DA/SA pistol it's not that good.
@Treblaine We've been over this, external VS no external safety, Vickers doesn't say it's only because of the reset and nothing else dummy, another strawman from you. History shows that training, not the weapon is what's important little guy. Well, if you can't find a reset measurement source don't rely on worthless OPINION, I'm tired of your worthless opinion.
BTW why doesn't Leatham use a Glock? Because people have different preferences, like your preference for boys and animals.
@bigboss686 Vickers was categorical that the glock is better. Don't make a straw man of the trigger reset, the WHOLE issue is Beretta's suitability.
It is EASIER to train people on the glock, and with the same level of training they will do better. Measure the trigger reset on YOUR 92FS, is it less than 3.17mm?
Leatham doesn't use a Glock because his training-preference is DA pistols, yet doesn't use 92FS. Stop squirming out of that point.
More perverted insults, it's self-projection you know.
@Treblaine Yet you don't post proof, again. Easier to train people equals lower training costs, so again Glock only wins out through cheapness. You not posting the reset number for both once again prove you use opinion, not fact. BTW you've yet to post any evidence to back up your claim that a miniscule reset differential means anything. Oh, an Leatham uses 1911s, so again you show your ignorance LOL
Projection? Nope, you're really that stupid, just ask your family they'll tell you
@bigboss686 Easier training is not a cost factor, it's making-soldiers-better-fighters factor.
There is no problem with being lowest bidder... IF you are also the best! It is being JUST the lowest bidder.
Leatham uses an M1911... A pistol with a short and light trigger pull + reset. Why isn't he using a Beretta 92FS? Maybe even without trying to short reset, a shorter reset still helps with the sweep.
You are being dishonest representing Leatham's practice as 92FS endorsement.
@chessmess117 He won't see reason. I will not tolerate people using such derisive rationalisations. He has taken everything I have said and twisted it beyond meaning.
I don't appreciate that. I think he's used to bullying people into submission but I will not concede to his insults, fallacies and dogma.
@chessmess117 Notice how what's his face never uses factual information, I find that very irritating. Take his argument on weight for example, he claims the Beretta is unfit because DoD should have chosen P226 supposedly because it was smaller, lighter etc.
Now, you don't have to be a genius to go to Beretta and sig's website to see that the dimensions are similar and that the P226 is actually heavier, not lighter.
It's buffoonish, yet he rambled on and on with such nonsense
@Treblaine Easier training is a cost factor, instructor fee/range sessions/ammo aren't free dummy. No, you're being dishonest, Leatham advocates against reset, doesn't teach it to his students, doesn't use it (FBI tests) He likes 1911's due to trigger design i.e. straight back pull and lighter weight, NOT RESET. Bill Wilson, of Wilson combat fame, did use a 92fs for many years. Sigh, you're so stupid you cant get anything straight, but then again you do make it up as you go along so..
@bigboss686 If Leatham's word is so valuable then his ideal for trigger design would exclude 92FS with its huge 14-lbs non-straight trigger pull for the first shot, the most important shot. You can't cherry pick your information. You cite Leatham to support 92FS's long heavy trigger, when he near exclusively uses 1911.
Bill Wilson endorses 1911-style pistols, not 92FS style, regardless of what he once carried.
@Treblaine Leatham's word is a training issue, not an endorsement/condemnation of a particular platform. Of course, you're so damn stupid I'm not surprised you can't tell the difference, you can't tell the difference between trig reset being irrelevant VS trigger design/weight so...exactly how inbred are you? Installing a 18lb 1911 mainspring gives the M9 an exquisite trigger. Bill Wilson does endorse the M9 as an excellent weapon, he needn't carry it to sing its praises.
@bigboss686 No, You are reading too much into his advice to use extensor then flexor muscles in sequence rather than opposition to say any long trigger is fine. You are fabricating M9 endorsements from people who are quite clear in their preference for M1911 style pistols with short light triggers. Bill Wilson's entire careers indicates preference for M1911 style pistols over 92FS/M9.
The competitive shooting community is in general opposition to XM9 trial's decision.
@Treblaine ROFLMAO, so how the human body works is irrelevant to how the human body works, brilliant. Insight like that shows you are champion of your exhaust huffing club. Fabricating? No, lies/ignorance are your department, I deal with truth/numbers, numbers, you never post by the way. Muscle flexors rationale is Todd Jarrett's, get it right moron. As to the rest I never claimed they were specifically endorsing the M9 above all others, their position is that reset is irrelevant.
@bigboss686 That's a straw man argument, I never said anything like that.
Your position may be that trigger reset length is irrelevant, but that is solely your opinion, and you are trying to make out Jarrett/Leatham's advice as support for your opinion. Even though they consistently use pistols with short trigger reset.
@Treblaine LOL that is EXACTLY what you said condensed, learn what a strawman is you sound ignorant as hell (even for you gaslight) when you accuse somebody of it without understanding what it is, K thanks little guy.
BTW, Jarrett specifically says the trigger sweep technique is best taught to LE who might have to use a different gun because it works with ALL handguns, not just Para LDAs and 1911s SOURCE imomags(.)com/blog/2011/05/25/a-sweeping-trigger-technique/ YOU LOSE AGAIN LMAO
@bigboss686 That advice for LE is invalid for a standard US Military pistol as if they had one standard pistol they'd all have the same short consistent trigger. No need for lowest common denominator approach to training.
@Treblaine Hmmm, you're worthless opinion as "some guy on the Internet" VS Jarrett's credentials as a decorated military/LE instructor, competition shooter an well-respected intellectual in the shooting community.....troll harder you fag. BTW they have 1 standard pistol. So they do have consistency, thus nullifying your ignorance again. Also, ever hear of procure on-site? military more than LE use the weapons available on the battlefield in a pinch, use your brain instead of your ass
@bigboss686 What I've pointed out speaks for itself. Jarrett doesn't recommend 92FS, especially not for military service. I don't troll. You troll with obscene insults.
DoD don't have 1 standard pistol: M1911 remains in use and M11 for those who don't have huge hands for M9's Glock-21 sized grip. That's 3. You KNOW that, you've been caught lying again.
(Procure-on-site is for emergencies, not to be depended upon.)
@Treblaine Yep, what you said really does speak for itself but it's not a very extensive vocabulary, just says herp derp and drools a lot LOL. The infantry does have one standard pistol, SF gets to use what they like an the 228 (all insignificant 7000 pistols) was only for military police agencies so including them in the discussion is a true strawman, see what you're doing, that's actually how strawman works. Dummy.
Fact always beats trolling, back under your bridge you greasy troll
@bigboss686 You insult my vocabulary when your post are filled with elementary spelling mistakes, obscene swearing and vile insults. So a hypocrite as well as a liar. You also clearly don't know what a Strawman argument is
M11 is not only of military police and you dodge M1911's continued use. Typical.
I think this is the end, I've proven you wrong and you'd admitted every failing to leave only insufficient excuses and weird opinion remaining.
@Treblaine 500 word limit dummy, easier to fit "your" in as opposed to "you're" given the limit. 228 was only issued to military law enforcement olive-drab(.)com/od_other_firearms_pistol_m11(.)php YOU LOSE AGAIN. Didn't dodge, 1911 is a SF caveat, It doesn't matter because SF use what they like, under your rationale you could call the MP5 an infantry weapon, FOOL en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Straw_man There, now you can learn to use it properly without further wallowing in ignorance
@Treblaine LMAO that's your proof? A YT video by some guy on the Internet? Your stupidity is beyond hopeless. I want legitimate proof Dutchess dumb ass, military ID numbers (the kind of evidence I provide) not random YT videos with nothing substantive, or prove that infantry receiving the M11/1911 is getting it for reason other than supply shortage. Playing in the big leagues (like me) requires legitimate evidence, not whatever your paint thinner addled brain latches onto at the time
@bigboss686 Are you saying that entire video was faked??!? WHY?! HOW?!? You've had your proof, now you are just denying the obvious. Pig-headedly denying and lying.
@Treblaine I'm saying that all evidence is not created equal, a video of "some guy" dressed in military outfits at a random shooting range with no designation/identification is NOT the equivalent of DOD case numbers, do you really not realize that? You that stupid? Don't bother I know the answer, you are. To quote tombstone, no need to go healed to get the bulge on a dub like you.
You want to be taken seriously little guy you've got to do better, although given your brain ailments...
@bigboss686 It still makes no sense to fake being in the US Army just to prove my point. Or do you think they conspired with me? You're simply in denial. And what is this "DoD case numbers" you mean those % figures you listed without a source? You mean that 70'000PSI overpressure claim without a source. How about this:
thegunzone(.)com/m9-a.html
Says it was mere subsonic 147gr rounds.
70'000PSI to get 147gr under 1100f/s? Bullshit
(You'll find space for grammar if you spare the petty insults)
@Treblaine Since when do you care about sources?. You've used like 3 an all of them shit. 70,000 PSI was just a little fun on my part to see if you would actually post a source and good for you caveman, you tried.... however, once again superior evidence is mine americanrifleman(.)org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-11/2009111213533-beretta92(.)pdf The military was experimenting with high pressure powder mixtures, no question, because they admit to changing the mixture. Now eat shit again LMAO
@bigboss686 You don't get it, you have to use SUPPORTING sources. Not ANY source. That source stated they were using standard issue M882 ammo. That is PRECISELY the stock ammo the XM9 trials demand all pistols be fit to fire! It is not ~50'000PSI and especially not 70'000PSI. M882 Powder was made weaker because the pistol wasn't strong enough. M9 LOWERED standards!
@Treblaine Wow, you're stupider than I thought. 1 That's the same ammo used in the trials, you know the ones the M9 outscored the competition in dummy. 2 I already posted evidence showing they were experimenting with over pressured ammunition, my last link merely confirms the ammo they were using was too hot for ALL platforms. YOU HAVE NO PROOF the M9 lowered the standard, JUST YOUR WORTHLESS OPINION. For the thousandth time, post evidence. Jizzing all over your Glock isn't evidence
@Treblaine ROFLMFAO, just when I think you can't get any stupider you pull this out of you're no doubt well reamed out ass. The link I posted showed that it was too hot for ALL platforms, dummy. You continually misrepresent/lie about the code of uniformity, it was NEVER meant to apply to machine gun ammo for duty use in pistols 100% of the time, just emergency instances. Here, learn something you blubbering dolt files(.)uzitalk(.)com/reference/pages/ammo(.)htm
@bigboss686 No. M882 was used in XM9 trials. M882 was supposed to be used for the M9 on duty. Beretta admitted that caused their pistols to explode catastrophically so the M882 standard was changed to much lower power. The 9x19mm S&W Model 39's the SEALs had used since Vietnam didn't catastrophically explode nor any problems, even using M882 even before it was downgraded for the M9.
@Treblaine Yes, M882 was used for the tests. No it was never meant to be as hot as the munitions divisions eventually made it, they were experimenting with higher pressure blends specifically meant for submachine guns, not everything. Alterations to M882 occurred AFTER the trials, it was never static. That's why there were NO issues during the trials, dummy. It really is sick the way you twist everything and ignore evidence, but for a simpleton like you the best you can do is lie
@bigboss686 WHAT? M882 was standardised in pressure. Beretta did NOT lay the blame at special high-pressure blends, but STANDARD M882 rounds! So the STANDARD of M882 was lowered. It's a totally irrelevant side issue that some high-pressure SMG 9mm were being tested elsewhere, YOUR SOURCE has Beretta lay the blame on STANDARD M882 rounds.
What's this about modifying M9 with custom triggers? That's not an option for service pistols!
@Treblaine Pay attention dummy, the military used 9mm SMG's BEFORE 9mm pistols. "Standard" M882s designed for sub guns specifically, NOT pistols of ANY kind. Military brass assumed it wouldn't be a problem, they assumed wrong. Nevertheless, none of that changes the FACT the M9 scored best in trials, only long-term use could show this issue, and that only on a measly 14 guns. I'll take the most well recognized gun review publication of all time over your worthless opinion dip shit.
@bigboss686 But the whole reason for a 9mm service pistol is to use ALL 9mm ammo in stock! NATO standard. Logistical efficiency. SEALs S&W M39 took that ammo no problem for decades. M9s started exploding within months of adoption! 14 out of a few thousand.
XM9 trials were obviously not thorough enough (distinct from 'not harsh enough') if pistols that passed the test exploded catastrophically using the ammo they were designated to use. M882 is not SMG-only.
@Treblaine Sad your limited intelligence couldn't grasp it. Yes, standardization. No it wasn't designed for anything but SMG's prior to adoption of a 9 mm platform pistol. M882 WAS designed SMG only, no standardized 9 mm platform existed prior to 85, therefore the stockpile WAS specifically for smg's. The M39 was a specialty weapon, not a standard issue, dummy. Analogy, trying to use 18 wheeler parts( SMG ammo) in a pickup (M9) won't work, that's what the Army mistakenly tried to do.
@bigboss686 Why have the same calibre ammunition for pistols and SMGs if the ammo is not interchangeable! It's a recipe for disaster if a round will fit and feed and match barrel designation on a pistol yet risk exploding it!
It should be easy for a pistol to take same ammo as an SMG. Other armies can do it. The SEALs DID do it! Their S&W M39 was not special, it's 20 years older design than Beretta 92.
@Treblaine Obviously someone in the military intelligentsia was as ignorant as you an thought it wouldn't be a problem. BTW you're referencing the M39 is a strawman, it was NOT intended for full duty, specialty weapon only dummy. Other armies do it by standardizing pressure to safe levels for ALL platforms, something the military neglected. At first. LOL at you thinking the M39 was designed for a steady diet of +P+ ammo on a regular basis, it wasn't an infantry issue weapon. DIP SHIT
@bigboss686 You can't label every good counter-argument as a Strawman as S&W-M39 is a perfect refutation of your claim that no pistol can handle 9mm issued to SMG, that very basic low-tech pistol handled them in extensive infantry use, and SEALs are a kind of infantry (they sure aren't pilots or chefs).
M882 is NOT +P+ ammo, it's 31000PSI, well below SAAMI pressure limit for regular P 9x19mm
@Treblaine Since you've never made a good counterargument and only strawmen. I actually can. The M39 is a strawman as it was never intended to be a full on infantry weapon, everything is rated for a few rounds of high pressure ammunition, there's a difference between occasionally VS consistently. BTW I wonder if you're realizing that the source you cite essentially contradicts your point about there even being a necessity to handle hot ammo? Doubtful, you are dumb as hell after all.
@bigboss686 SEALs fired more of Model 39 in its decades of service than the few-months of service Berettas saw before they started exploding using the same ammunition.
Source is consistent in the description of M882 ammunition being fit for pistols, something that Beretta (in your source) admitted was cause of explosions.
@Treblaine Leatham/Jarrett work for 1911 manufacturers, They gain financially by lying an saying reset is important, yet they don't, why? It's called integrity, that you don't have. As for Wilson, used a M9 in competition for many years an said it is a fine/reliable gun, he needn't say that about another manufacturer's product, yet he did. Preference doesn't mean you don't recognize excellence elsewhere. Also, we are talking about defensive shooting, not competition shooting, idiot.
@bigboss686 So you admit competitive shooting is different from defensive (combat) shooting? FINALLY! Size/weight can be huge in competition. Don't try to use reductionist fallacies dismissing each point with contradictions, the M9 remains OVERALL an unsuited pistol for its role. Trigger CAN cause problems.
High frame Safety is harder to actuate while holding (if you have less than large hands) yet more exposed is easier to accidentally release. No cocked-and-locked.
@Treblaine Admit? Oh that's right, I forgot your stupid as hell and can't remember it's like the second or third thing I brought up, you dumb ass. Unsuited for its role? Do I really have to post the scores again? It tied or exceeded the 226 in every way, end of story. BTW M9 is still 1 ounce less than the 226, which BOTH have aluminum frames, Also no cocked/locked option applies to the 226 as well, further fail for you fag fool. Keep drinking that grain alcohol you huckleberry cunt
@bigboss686 The irony of saying "your stupid as hell". It's "you're".
It's a straw man bringing up mere environment testing, the test comparisons of XM9 trials did not factor size/weight/ergonomics.
92FS Aluminium = 970g
P226 Aluminium = 837g (both with empty mag)remtek(.)com/arms/sig/model/226/226.htm
Glock effectively has a cocked-locked option as the striker is cocked and internally locked. Also, P226 at least has lighter DA pull and never have to worry about manual safety.
@Treblaine LOL I'll take the manufacturer's word as opposed to a ridiculous third-party site, thanks. Size/weight/ergonomics are irrelevant to a military pistol, going bang is all that matters, everything else is superfluous. Lots of soldiers want AK-47s as opposed to M4, they don't care that it's heavier they want something that goes bang every time! BTW they told Gaston to take his Glock an go fuck himself, just like you shove your pencil sized Pecker in a Glock barrel to jerk off
@bigboss686 That's a Guns & Ammo article, you should have checked.
"Size/weight/ergonomics are irrelevant to a military pistol" that's YOUR crazy opinion, why not a Hi Point modified for double stack?
AK vs M4 is a very different as it is for a far heavier cartridge and fire-rate. We are comparing pistols of identical calibre with more or less identical durability. YOU are making a straw man argument.
Also a liar, saying DoD told Glock to "Fuck off". And you continue with futile insults.
@Treblaine I did, you aware that is reviewing a model that had an internal extractor, something the trial guns didn't have? No because you're a moron. Size/weight etc ARE irrelevant, that's DOD's opinion, but of course, you know more than DoD troll LOL. BTW if DoD didn't tell Gaston to fuck off were was it in the trials fag? An don't give me that reliability crap, it had NO record of merit. Remember were talking about gen 1 glock, not the gen 3 glock gained its inflated reputation on
You can't just wish away size and weight problems, DoD played it by numbers and lost sight of their objective, armies have made this mistake so many times before. Similar with the SA80 rifle series in UK.
Gen 1 Glocks still better than the latest 92FS/M9.
@Treblaine No doesn't change significantly, just enough to make it heavier LOL. There is NO size/weight problem, those are irrelevant an take a distant second to reliability, reliability scores favor the M9. Love your rationale btw, reliability? Fuck it, it's more important how heavy it is or feels in my hand as opposed to if it goes bang every time, style over substance, that's you.
Gen1 glock is better? PROVE IT, but don't be stupid an link me to a gen 2 test or higher dip shit
longest youtube argument ever
ArrogantShawn 1 week ago
I'm done with this, I've said everything that needs to be said and you have bullied your way to victory with lies, fallacious logic and verbal abuse.
I hope you are happy, you have proved how desperate you are.
Treblaine 4 weeks ago
@Treblaine LOL you said everything, except for the truth of course, thats always your failure point, truth. The truth is the exact opposite of everything you've said. findarticles(.)com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457285/ americanrifleman(.)org/ArticlePage(.)aspx?id=2043&cid=19 craigcentral(.)com/fearnot(.)htm
There is the truth^
BTW your cowardly tactic, don't address me just make a comment to try to have the last word, bully tactics personified by you Fecal liquor LOL
bigboss686 4 weeks ago 3
@bigboss686 You're a bully and a liar, yet you think you can bully and lie your way out of that.
But you're only fooling yourself.
I'm done with this, I've refuted everything you have said and now you are just repeating yourself. I hope you don't treat any other person like the way you have treated me.
Treblaine 4 weeks ago
@Treblaine If you really think that I feel sorry for you, you really are delusional. I've done nothing but post evidence by people like Ernest Langdon, Massad Ayoob, Angus Hobdell, Todd Jarrett an Rob Leatham. Of course they're all liars too because no one's allowed to disagree with you.
No the only delusional liar here is you, said you were finished with this discussion, yet here you are again, proof positive you're a liar.
Bully complex too, because you have to have the last word
bigboss686 3 weeks ago 2
@bigboss686 Keep lying, keep bullying, and you'll get your comeuppance.
Treblaine 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Treblaine Your accusations sad, you NEVER provide anything truthful to back your claims, an when you try(14 failures VS 31) you lie by omission, leaving out information. Your kind constantly suggests those you disagree with lack knowledge, while you commit every logical fallacy under the sun. This is just a front to hide your own ignorance, self-loathing, mediocrity and lack of critical ability. You constantly try to weasel out of everything and shame anyone who challenges you. Sad
bigboss686 3 weeks ago
BTW the first shot is irrelevant to the trigger reset argument, you even admitted a few posts ago that the SA for the second shots all that mattered and was shorter than the previous double action as it did not reset all the way to DA Distance.
Of course, you change your story to fit whatever wild accusation you want to throw at the time so it's not surprising. You can't keep your lies straight. just like you can't stop sucking dick for rent money because you're too stupid to do anything else.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 I admitted SA was all that mattered for CZ-75 cocked&locked! Not for the M9 with that decocking safety! You're making a (poor) straw man argument about trigger reset. It doesn't change how M9 has a bad 12-lbs initial DA pull that you cannot easily get around in service use. First shot is the most valuable one, yet on M9 it's the hardest and inconsistent requiring an extra layer of training and things to go wrong.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Trying to change the subject again? Pathetic distortions are all you've got. Trigger reset, which is your argument, has nothing to do with weight. The heavy spring is for primer ignition reliability/second strike capability, that on Gaston's crap? NOPE.
Your claim of extra training is yet another lie, it's identical to any DA/SA platform in training requirements, only difference is you push your thumb up instead of down. Or as you prefer to do, up your ass then lick it
bigboss686 1 month ago 2
@bigboss686 The subject is M9's unsuitability in all aspects, which is not limited to your insistence of Trigger-reset's irrelevance. The long reset is one of many problems with M9.
You overvalue primer impact force, if first trigger pull fails to fire, Clint Smith teaches to just rack the slide to next round as it is more likely a dud.
It was YOU who claimed extra training, extra training in how to be accurate with long heavy DA pull.
(You have a sick mind talking of Coprophilia)
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Cont: LIE.M9's unsuitability in all aspects. TRUTH
Questions about M9’s shootability have gone by the wayside. Through the years at Camp Perry, Berettas accurized in the style of David Sams an military marksmanship training units have surpassed the best M1911s in the winners’ circles in Distinguished and President’s Hundred events. IDPA an IPSC national championships have been won with Beretta 92s “street-tuned” by such ’smiths as Ernest Langdon. Source Massad Ayoob
bigboss686 4 weeks ago
@bigboss686 That's M9 vs M1911 becomes a 9mm vs .45 comparison, Rob Leatham goes on of the competition advantages of 9mm-1911 (though conceded on issue of stopping power) and you are talking of "turned" M9s which is NOT economical nor practical for M9 in actual military service.
The CZ, Glock and Sig, etc win more competitions with stock right out the box configuration while being objectively more suited to combat in terms of weight + safety-ergonomics.
Treblaine 4 weeks ago
@Treblaine Cont DISTORTION M9 VS 1911 is a 9 vs 45 debate TRUTH caliber has nothing to do with it, that's irrelevant to the battery of arms for training, no matter what caliber is used for training is the same, presentation, safety disengagement, sight picture etc. DISTORTION in order to be viable, you must have the most competition wins TRUTH the m9 has a plethora of competition victories, more than enough to justify its exceptional quality. both accessorized, an stock configuration
bigboss686 4 weeks ago 4
PX4 all the way.
SonofLiberty79 1 month ago
"disgusting, but ok." i love watching amazing older films, but it sucks that i have to listen to old homophobic social views
EdEmKay 1 month ago
@EdEmKay LOL fuck off with your PC police BS.
Just because he finds the activity disgusting doesn't mean he has any bigotry, unless you find no legal activity disgusting? in that case you're just a sicko pervert.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 no, he doesnt find it disgusting, he finds the fact that its two women disgusting. you're having a go cause im not homophobic? wow.
EdEmKay 1 month ago
@EdEmKay No, I'm "having a go" because your PC addled brain cant understand the difference between somebody finding something disgusting and someone being a bigot.
Someone who eats peanut butter with their fingers is "disgusting" to some people, does that mean they're prejudiced towards them? Nope, just means they think their behavior is gross.
Dummy
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 thats a false analogy. someone chooses to have disgusting behaviour, noone chooses to be homosexual. im not pc, im simply saying its strange seeing a film where homosexuality clearly wasnt accepted yet, which is why they put this in a film. simply by the fact you're trying to insult me, and the fact you look like a cunt in your profile picture, im ending this argument now.
EdEmKay 1 month ago
@EdEmKay No it isn't, just because behavior might be "natural" for some person doesn't mean that you have to approve of it or else you're a bigot, dummy.
bigboss686 1 month ago
My father did this at a shooting range once, with an AR-15.
62gaganc 2 months ago
He could easily snipe with that Beretta 9mm.
MechaTailsMK2 2 months ago
Everytime I go to the firing range I attempt this for shits and giggles.
shortbuspileup 3 months ago
@NoxDies
Who the hell is Murdock? I Heard of him in lethal weapon lol
Nah just kidding man, I know you meant murtaugh
minicurl07 3 months ago
Always loved this scene. Just as Dirty Harry Callahan made the S&W Model 29 famous, Martin Riggs (and John McClane) did the same for the Beretta 92F! Great film from a great decade.
Fenner1976 5 months ago 2
How could nobody comment on the crooked smile?
TheOnlySonicFan 6 months ago
"Shit..." LMAO!
KleWdSide 6 months ago
"That's very thin...
Ahh, what the hell, thin's my middle name..
Your wife's cooking, I'm not surprised,,,"
Right on, riggs!!
Ironhandjohn 6 months ago 3
Everybody on youtube is a ballistics expert, apparently.
martiallaw09 7 months ago 5
People's natural reaction is to flynch or blink when firing a gun. And you CAN talk to people with the earmuffs on as well...you just have to talk louder, which they are. Has no one posting ever been to a firing range before? Come on guys
mattman1138 7 months ago
i count and mel shot 9 rounds at the first time and change magazine :)) what the shit i love 80's and beretta 92f/fs/sb/sb-c/billenium/centurion/brigadier and i love mel gibson man
bbbcomrade 7 months ago
I fucking love gun ranges.
I also fucking love handguns.
92796Apollo 7 months ago
cool gun
123gutar 7 months ago
What the hell you're talking about, it's normal he's flinching each time he fires , this gun is very powerful, he's the best actor ever that holywood has known, shut ur traps and learn something from him !!
lonlywolfish 8 months ago
guys your arguing if its real or not ,meanwile they are talking to eachother when they both have earmuffs on
Halenalex5001 9 months ago
I love how when Murdock puts the second target up, it already has a hole in its head. Still love this movie.
NoxDies 9 months ago
Awesome movie
ibm198708 9 months ago
what the fuck is mel gibsons problem with his fucking eyes everytime he shoots its annoying
NetSoldier23 9 months ago
Not "disgusting", it's nice. I bet Gibson suggested that line ;-)
rhydermike 10 months ago
I've got the same shooting glasses with Riggs. :P
lakis97 10 months ago
The way Riggs are flinching each time he fires, I'm surprised he even hit the target.
Keichwoud357 11 months ago
@oldskoolhouse1234567 he fires 7 shots... watch more carefully
nedalnekbrad 11 months ago
this movie say.... "Buy a Beretta 9mm, Rigg say you, have a nice day"
goldpegasusfantasy 1 year ago 11
Best scene in this whole movie! :)
califgirl101 1 year ago
Classic scene but the one that MADE me buy the Beretta was him emptying it @ the helo.
jeffinphx 1 year ago 2
@jeffinphx Yup! haha same reason why I bought mine lol I love the beretta
GunnyG6 10 months ago
This is one of the reasons why I fell in love with both this movie and the Beretta 92fs pistol!!!
Riggs- "Okay step aside old man." :D
LukeMM95 1 year ago
totally possible, I did it with a phased plasma rifle in a thirty watt range.
PenDanger2 1 year ago
its possible, ive done it. with a sniper rifle but ive still done it
Xmare1 1 year ago
@Xmare1 lol what on call of duty? a "sniper rifle" lol
Tennessee0331 1 year ago
@Tennessee0331 well to be exact it was an old Springfield rifle haha I dont play call of duty, i just used the genaric term for a high power semi-automatic rifle with a scope.
Xmare1 1 year ago
hahahah .
birnaluna 1 year ago
hickok 45 could do that
MrReverendgreen 1 year ago 6
@MrReverendgreen LOL!
CaptainBerz 1 year ago
Im too old for this shit!!!
kimthecallofduty 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
love this movie <3
vinkie35 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I just LOVE this part of the movie, its so damn funny xD
Twinturb069 1 year ago
I just LOVE this part, it's so damn funny xD
Twinturb069 1 year ago
I could do that with a Mk23, one of the few handguns with an effective range up to 50 yards!
IMFDB 1 year ago
This movie is like a Beretta commercial.
Treblaine 1 year ago 23
@Treblaine Beretta makes a damn good firearm. I owned a 92F for several years and never had a problem with it. Finally had to upgrade to a 40 cal and went with a Glock as they are easier to work on, but I miss the Beretta.
CoolBreezeClub 2 months ago
@CoolBreezeClub Beretta 92's are good guns. Accurate, controllable and they look GREAT.
I just get the feeling that a lot of Beretta 92's wider success came from its US Army adoption and its prominent and distinctive feature in 2 major Hollywood action series (Lethal Weapon and Die Hard). Because the vital statistics of size, weight, trigger, safety operation and durability it doesn't seem that competitive.
Still one of the sexist handguns ever made (that isn't a revolver)
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine 92FS vital statistics are on par with any other full-size. Its size and weight aren't that much different than the Sig P226 or comparable non-polymer handguns. It's a trade-off, weight vs controllability, durability is top-notch on par with anything else and safety operation is a training issue. Nothing inherently problematic with the gun.
BTW slap an 18lb 1911 mainspring in it an the 92FS has one of the nicest triggers of any semi auto pistol with full reliability intact
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 Beretta M9/92 slide is 50% wider than the Browning HP, a double-stack steel pistol made in 1935! Beretta 92 is made of weaker aluminium yet still heavier than Browning HP. Weight/size is a poor compromise over recoil.
M9 pistol has NOT proven to be durable, it has proven to break frequently and easily. The safety issues are an unnecessary burden on training that jeopardise lives.
PS: Beretta 92/M9 has inherently poor trigger which is MORE than mere weight.
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine Guess you don't know much about metallurgy. Tensile strength is certainly not weaker, that's a myth. Sigs had 0 problem using aluminum in there 220 series pistols and they're some of the most durable ever created. Also, the M9 has proven to be extremely durable, early on there were lockingblock issues but those were corrected long ago. The safety being an issue is user error/bad training. Not a design defect. An the 92 has an exceptional trigger, just switch the spring.
bigboss686 2 months ago
@bigboss686 My problem is not with the material but with the design, Beretta uses a great material like Aluminium yet made a pistol heavier than the all-steel Browning HP of 1935. Poor design. M9 DOES have problems not because of material but design!
M9 has NOT proven durability, it has a long history of catastrophic failures.
The safety IS slower to use than all the contemporary designs (cocked+locked or Glock-safety). "Exceptional" is the word for M9 trigger, exceptionally poor. Long reset etc
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine So first aluminum with a weak material but now it's back to track time, because you realized you got called on your mistake LOL. If you don't like the shape/weight that's fine, that's your OPINION, but those are NOT design flaws because they clash with your "personal" style. Catastrophic failures is MYTH. 9000 locking blocks malfunctioned the first year, they re-designed it an since then it's had an exceptional run. The notion of unreliability is an unfortunate urban legend
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 Well Aluminium is weaker (tensile strength is not the ONLY strength) I agree with you Aluminium can be as strong and lighter than steel but Beretta screwed up with the 92/M9's design. I never stated subjective option, I stated the fact that Beretta is bigger and heavier than a gun to same-brief that is 40 years older (browning HP).
Tell it too the Navy SEAL who saw it that the Catastrophic failures are a myth. The solution merely reduces the danger of explosion, not the probability.
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine So first aluminum is weaker, then it isn't then it is again LOL, make up your mind, which is it? Oh that right, it's whichever you want at the time. Also, stop saying design flaw, your understanding of the term is nonsensical, Size/weight would only be a design flaw if they would have not been designed to be that way in the first place, they don't impede functionality, they merely offend opinion, and yours is opinion, NOT fact. As for the rest of your nonsensical OPINION
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 You're imagining things on what I ACTUALLY said about Aluminium.
The design flaw is evident in its pattern of failures.
Size/Weight is also an issue of design; aim was surely to be objectively better than the competition and they failed at that. Unless they had lower standards than of 1935 (when the Browning HP went into full production).
Please stop mixing up fact/opinion also stop saying "nonsensical" when this makes perfect sense. You seem to be contriving a "Chewbacca Defence".
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine No, first you said it was too weak and prone to failure then said it was just fine, the comments on the second page. Also, that you think the M9 is not an improvement in reliability and durability above the hi-power only shows how little you understand about design, as I'll explain in a moment. your problem is that you cannot think rationally in regard to the arguments being made, you keep confusing fact with opinion when you obviously don't know the facts. I do know FACT
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 Nope, I said "aluminium is weaker" than steel because it is. With good design it can be strong enough but M9 has those patterns of failures under loads other pistols survived.
I think you will find it is you conflating fact and opinion. "rationality" does not mean "agreeing with bigboss686".
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine Sorry, again you are wrong. If you're hypothesis about aluminum frame (note the locking block/slide on the M9 is steel) were true then the sig P220 series would suffer the same frailties as they both use the same aluminum frame. Yet it does not. Also, other guns didn't "survive those loads" during testing it digested every load as efficiently as any other. BTW There's no question that you are conflating fact and opinion. "rationality" does not mean "agreeing with Treblaine"
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@Treblaine Off safety is the same speed if a gun is C&L or not, you sound exceptionally ignorant making that statement. Your dislike of the trigger is nonsensical, trigger reset is merely the latest excuse for poor trigger control, certainly nothing that's an issue for defensive drills. My guess would be your an extremely novice shooter who spent too much time on Internet forums given all the mistakes you make, either that or you're just incredibly ill-informed.
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 Safety is slower considering the need for a long DA pull and the higher slide-mounted safety. Its definitely slower than a glock! You are the one making endless excuses for the Beretta 92/M9. Tell me why a long trigger reset is so great except FOR novice shooters to make them safer from poor trigger control?
I have made no mistakes (aluminium IS weaker than steel, except in a few narrow areas), you keep mistaking the facts I state as opinion then dismissing them!
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine Part 2 Only 9000 92's had failures and those failures because the seals were running high pressure SMG ammo in them, any gun fails when you use ammo it's NOT in-spec for, however, the modified locking block negated the failures. Also, comparing a gun that doesn't have a safety to one that does is stupid, different design, doesn't mean it's "flawed" unless you consider the 1911 flawed. Seals use what they want, some units still issue 1911's and yes, some use the M9 today
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 Beretta M9 was supposed to be rated for the +P rounds the SEALs used, it WAS in-spec. Also the SEALs and most US SF groups almost universally refused the weapon even after the "fix".
It is not stupid to compare it with Glock just because it has a trigger safety, the designs are different but the role is the same. Glock is objectively better choice as hi-cap 9mm pistol for military. Also Browning HP is objectively better.
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine SMG ammo is rated +P+=42,000 psi NOT +P=38,500psi. Some SMG is over 48'000psi yet only 9000 failures occurred, after redo pretty much 0% failure. 2 Design is different you cannot compare it any more than you can compare a baseball player and basketball player. BTW Hi-power's not rated to use +P in a steady diet still not advised for it today. Also, the thin slide negates heavy +P usage, the Glock slide is thicker than the Hi-power as well, guess its design flawed too. LOL
bigboss686 2 months ago
@bigboss686 The design brief for the M9 pistol was it must use all 9mm ammo in US military stock. What is the POINT of calibre compatibility if it cannot use the SMG ammo? Glock can handle that ammo all day every day, same with SIG and MODERN variants of the Browning HP.
Beretta has same size grip (circumference + width) as the Glock 21! A pistol undeniably notorious for being too large in the grip, though it was double-stack of 13 .45ACP rounds!
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine US military stock, not NATO stock which can run up to 50,000 psi. I know for a fact Israeli SMG ammo has been known to run at 50,000 psi. So claiming any gun can handle 48-50,000 psi ammunition all day long only shows your ignorance, NO manufacturer makes that claim. As far as the grip being fairly beefy, so what? it was designed to have more capacity than the Browning an the P226 is hardly small, just childish nitpicking on your part, it doesn't hurt the functionality.
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 US military stock includes NATO stock. NATO standard is one of the main reasons of the move from .45 to 9mm.
Glock has been torture tested with +P+ 9mm ammo without catastrophic failures. Beretta M9 (to channel the meme): OVER NINE THOUSAND!
"So what if beefy stock?" Because that's a poor standard! It is bigger than any other double-stack 9mm pistol! Bigger than P226! There are flush-fitting Browning HP mags of 15-round capacity!
You call me childish with your excuses?!?
Treblaine 2 months ago
@Treblaine Unlike you I do research rather than relying on worthless opinion. Turns I was mistaken about NATO ammo. However, I was also mistaken about the M9's reliability, IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN I THOUGHT LOL
sightm1911(.)com/lib/history/true_story_m9(.)htm
Also look up 92FS torture test by Christopher Bartocci
Enjoy your humble pie, FACT is always better than your worthless opinion. FYI, Glock Kaboom everyone knows that's true, right? Again, use fact, not your worthless opinion
bigboss686 2 months ago 2
@bigboss686 The source you provide agrees with me on excessive size/weight and criticises the trigger, concluding M9 is "far from perfect" reiterating servicemen's concerns.
Christopher Bartocci's test was without a control but 92FS destroyed after 17'500 rounds WITHOUT extreme conditions. Typical glock torture tests like extreme temp, oily/salt-water contamination and drop/impact tests with as many rounds without failure.
Saying "Glock Kaboom" how is that fact? That's meaningless conjecture.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Again, size/weight are subjective, you have little girl hand it's a problem. That DOES NOT equate to a design defect, doesn't impede functionality. Bartocci proves the M9 is more than adequate, number of people who will run 17K of 9mm/+P/+P+ through one is very small, just as the FACT that since 88 the M9 has had 0 issues in military service, 23 years of military reliability speaks for itself. BTW Larry Vickers Glock torture test contradicts your childish image of the Glock
bigboss686 1 month ago 2
@bigboss686 You're just repeating what I have already disputed only adding in lame attempts at insulting my masculinity. My masculinity shouldn't have to compensate for a poor design with a grip more like a 2x4 wood block! There ARE people with small hands in the US Military and the M9 is too big for them to fire effectively. A smaller grip would also suit those with big "macho" hands.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine LOL I said little girl hands to illustrate small hands, funny you're so insecure you took it personally. Also, I see your argument has evolved, before your calling it design flaw, now it's poor design, sadly trying to give yourself wiggle room to save face from your previous blunders. you're the one that applied rigidity at the start of this, now you want fluidity? I accept your intellectual surrender
Sooting daddy's glock in the backyard doesn't make you a gun expert kid
bigboss686 1 month ago
@Treblaine The danger of a short reset are essentially two, one an unintentional or early shot. This is especially true for DA/SA Beretta, SIG, H&K etc. type guns. Here we transition from a long, heavy trigger pull to a short reset, short travel to fire, light trigger. What felt like necessary pressure on the trigger for the DA shot, is excessive and can break a second shot prematurely.
Equaling death prematurely
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 That is an argument against issuing DA/SA pistols to troops. With M1911 they never had to worry about DA/SA trigger difference.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine I never said a consistent trigger was a bad thing, I said trigger reset was irrelevant. But of course for you it's easier to build strawmen that actually debate the points I bring up.
Consistency of trigger pull is definitely a plus, but the Army was not looking for a single action pistol. Right or wrong, they wanted a DA/SA design, and all the FACTUAL information on its reliability/durability prove (in links to army test's i posted) their choice was correct.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Straw men of making strawmen argument: Strawception!
The US army doesn't want a DA/SA pistol just for the sake of that mechanism, they wanted a simpler to use weapon than the cocked and locked Colt M1911! Simple trigger pull, no worry about if it is cocked.
It may have become that, but that is where they lost sight of their ultimate goal of a better pistol.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine The Army most certainly did want a double action style pistol, perhaps not the transferred single action, but definitely a double action pistol.
BTW Don't say, they should've gone with Glock, first of all, it wasn't submitted when the test started in the 70s.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Wait, are you saying it took over-5 years for the US DoD to decide? Nope, Glock was an option since 1983 where it was submitted for XM9 Trials (well before the 1985 adoption) but only unofficially initial examination, it was The DoD who mysteriously refused admission to trials. (Kasler)
If the US-DoD did limit the XM9 trials to DA/SA pistols then they were being arbitrary and not serving the purpose of finding a new service pistol.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Must really burn your ball less scrotum that the Army told Gaston to take his Glock and shove it up his ass LOL Glock perfection, indeed. House appropriations study was in 78, 92s-1 was submitted in 79. BTW I want real link's two real evidence, not your worthless opinion. BTW thegunzone(.)com/glock/glock-kb-faq(.)html Nothings perfect, especially slow witted doofus peddling opinion, like you. Playing with daddy's glock in the backyard don't make you a weapon expert kid
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 More aggressive insults attempting to attack my masculinity...
Why would the House make decisions on equipment that the DoD should decide?
You KNOW everything I've said is true: M9's size, weight, safety and trigger.
Nothing is perfect, but I think Glocks and Sigs overall preference by different law enforcement agencies across the US and around the world says enough.
Beretta won the XM9 trials by being the lowest bidder, not by excelling over competition like Sig. You know this.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Scores? Ok,Reliability M9 trial scores MRBF (mean rounds between failures) the Beretta was 2000, SIG 1000, Endurance test:SIG P226 developed frame crack at 6,523 rounds; another at the end of the 7k test.All Beretta 92SB-F guns and all 3 H&K guns made it through no problems according to DOD, Reliability testing (wet/dry phase): Beretta 92SB-F, 97%/98%, SiG P226, 98%/79%.
Reliability testing (salt water corrosion):after 10 days, Beretta 92SB-F 100% SIG P226 100% piss off
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 So they both passed and Beretta DID win by being the lowest bidder. The XM9 trials completely failed to compare size/weight and arbitrarily eliminated non-DA/SA pistols.
XM9 trials were disputed so much that the M11 pistol was later procured for where the M9's shortcomings were just unworkable.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine LMAO you realize the p226 weighs 34 ounces right? Meaning it weighs 1 more ounce than the M9. Shooting yourself in the foot with your size/weight argument dunce. Oh yah, "shortcomings" of the M9 were so severe the military ordered an underwhelming less than 8000 M11 pistols, mostly dispersed to military law enforcement (AFOSI) (NCIS) (USACIDC) etc. 2,062 M11 pistols being the largest placement to one agency. So 8000 M11's ordered VS 1.5 million M9's... you suck at this.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 The Aluminium Frame P226 is 870g; Beretta 92FS = 960g; Glock 17 = 625g (all with empty mags). Source: world.guns.ru
You have nothing but excuses. A good service pistol should not need so many excuses.
I don't think there is anything more to say, the actual problems with the M9 pistol are irrefutable, only excusable by LOW standards. You make excuses just like the US DoD, because they have incentive to stick with decision they made, it's too hard to reverse M9 procurement.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Glock was unacceptable to DOD, probably because they explode SOURCE thegunzone(.)com/glock/glock-kb-faq(.)html That leaves the 226 and M9, M9 is lighter and that negate your idiot arguments on weight
Low standards? I posted the trial scores for the M9 and the 226 in MRBF, Endurance, wet/dry phase testing and salt water corrosion. M9 scored identically or BETTER than the 226 in ALL those tests. You=not smart
Your the one with nothing but excuses, and androgenous genitalia
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Keep up with the crude and immature insults if it makes you feel big and strong, they have no effect on me.
(it's a straw man comparing 92FS and P226 in endurance trials but not Glock)
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Yes, facts, figures and logical reasoning have no affect on you, that's obvious. OMG Leatham shot revolver, a couple times, that's poisoned his finger for detecting a decent trigger on anything. LOL damn your a stupid bitch. It's a strawman introducing Glock in the first place, it wasn't considered. Colonel Jeff Cooper said the CZ 75 was the greatest 9 mm ever made, so what? It wasn't considered same as Glock. the choice was between the M9 an 226, test numbers back the M9
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Leatham is a straw man argument. Not everyone is (or even can be) as good as him nor shoot the same as him. It's not a straw man to introduce Glock as it was unreasonably rejected by the DoD who are guilty of straw-manning, limiting XM9 trials to P226-vs-92FS and then deciding on fractionally lower bidder (yay, cheaper replacement parts).
(Also, learn the difference between "your" and "you're").
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Leatham is one of a half-dozen pro shooters the FBI tested to determine trigger reset irrelevant. But I love your rationale, trigger reset is an advanced technique, so of course a novice can use it better than the best shooters in the world LMAO. Learn what a strawman is/means, it makes you look all the stupider that you don't know. Unreasonably objected in your OPINION, always opinion with you, nothing else. BTW resort to grammar Nazi= instant intellectual surrender fag
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 The problem with trigger reset is not returning the trigger enough to reset. If there is a LONGER reset (as with 92FS) then that problem is exacerbated.
You can use full-reset on a trigger with a short-reset (Glock) with less chance of short-stroking in fog of war where one may fail to extend finger quite enough. Surely that is better. That's not mere opinion, that's reasoned logic.
(You hurl insults like "stupid bitch" and "fag" yet claim I have intellectually surrendered?)
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine You do realize the M9s DA/SA right? Subsequent shots(only ones relevant to reset) in SA have a trigger reset that's what .002 longer? That is non-perceivable under stress, as FBI testing has proven. What do you know about fog of war shooting daddy's glock in your backyard kid? It go off and you have to change your Pampers? Now, post some numbers to back your claim, reset distance glock vs M9, to prove long reset. After all, you should be used to measuring short things
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Larry Vickers declares "the average shooter will shoot a Glock better than a Beretta."
Glock has 3.17mm trigger reset, is that the case for 92FS? I can't find a measurement source but so many empirical comparisons declare the 92FS having one of the longest SA resets of all pistols. Also, Glock has lower bore-line for less muzzle flip.
PS: why doesn't Leatham use a 92FS? Maybe even as a DA/SA pistol it's not that good.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine We've been over this, external VS no external safety, Vickers doesn't say it's only because of the reset and nothing else dummy, another strawman from you. History shows that training, not the weapon is what's important little guy. Well, if you can't find a reset measurement source don't rely on worthless OPINION, I'm tired of your worthless opinion.
BTW why doesn't Leatham use a Glock? Because people have different preferences, like your preference for boys and animals.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Vickers was categorical that the glock is better. Don't make a straw man of the trigger reset, the WHOLE issue is Beretta's suitability.
It is EASIER to train people on the glock, and with the same level of training they will do better. Measure the trigger reset on YOUR 92FS, is it less than 3.17mm?
Leatham doesn't use a Glock because his training-preference is DA pistols, yet doesn't use 92FS. Stop squirming out of that point.
More perverted insults, it's self-projection you know.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Yet you don't post proof, again. Easier to train people equals lower training costs, so again Glock only wins out through cheapness. You not posting the reset number for both once again prove you use opinion, not fact. BTW you've yet to post any evidence to back up your claim that a miniscule reset differential means anything. Oh, an Leatham uses 1911s, so again you show your ignorance LOL
Projection? Nope, you're really that stupid, just ask your family they'll tell you
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Easier training is not a cost factor, it's making-soldiers-better-fighters factor.
There is no problem with being lowest bidder... IF you are also the best! It is being JUST the lowest bidder.
Leatham uses an M1911... A pistol with a short and light trigger pull + reset. Why isn't he using a Beretta 92FS? Maybe even without trying to short reset, a shorter reset still helps with the sweep.
You are being dishonest representing Leatham's practice as 92FS endorsement.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine what the fuck is with this debate? Every single comment down the page is you two going back and forth
chessmess117 1 month ago
@chessmess117 He won't see reason. I will not tolerate people using such derisive rationalisations. He has taken everything I have said and twisted it beyond meaning.
I don't appreciate that. I think he's used to bullying people into submission but I will not concede to his insults, fallacies and dogma.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@chessmess117 Notice how what's his face never uses factual information, I find that very irritating. Take his argument on weight for example, he claims the Beretta is unfit because DoD should have chosen P226 supposedly because it was smaller, lighter etc.
Now, you don't have to be a genius to go to Beretta and sig's website to see that the dimensions are similar and that the P226 is actually heavier, not lighter.
It's buffoonish, yet he rambled on and on with such nonsense
bigboss686 1 month ago
@Treblaine Easier training is a cost factor, instructor fee/range sessions/ammo aren't free dummy. No, you're being dishonest, Leatham advocates against reset, doesn't teach it to his students, doesn't use it (FBI tests) He likes 1911's due to trigger design i.e. straight back pull and lighter weight, NOT RESET. Bill Wilson, of Wilson combat fame, did use a 92fs for many years. Sigh, you're so stupid you cant get anything straight, but then again you do make it up as you go along so..
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 If Leatham's word is so valuable then his ideal for trigger design would exclude 92FS with its huge 14-lbs non-straight trigger pull for the first shot, the most important shot. You can't cherry pick your information. You cite Leatham to support 92FS's long heavy trigger, when he near exclusively uses 1911.
Bill Wilson endorses 1911-style pistols, not 92FS style, regardless of what he once carried.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Leatham's word is a training issue, not an endorsement/condemnation of a particular platform. Of course, you're so damn stupid I'm not surprised you can't tell the difference, you can't tell the difference between trig reset being irrelevant VS trigger design/weight so...exactly how inbred are you? Installing a 18lb 1911 mainspring gives the M9 an exquisite trigger. Bill Wilson does endorse the M9 as an excellent weapon, he needn't carry it to sing its praises.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 No, You are reading too much into his advice to use extensor then flexor muscles in sequence rather than opposition to say any long trigger is fine. You are fabricating M9 endorsements from people who are quite clear in their preference for M1911 style pistols with short light triggers. Bill Wilson's entire careers indicates preference for M1911 style pistols over 92FS/M9.
The competitive shooting community is in general opposition to XM9 trial's decision.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine ROFLMAO, so how the human body works is irrelevant to how the human body works, brilliant. Insight like that shows you are champion of your exhaust huffing club. Fabricating? No, lies/ignorance are your department, I deal with truth/numbers, numbers, you never post by the way. Muscle flexors rationale is Todd Jarrett's, get it right moron. As to the rest I never claimed they were specifically endorsing the M9 above all others, their position is that reset is irrelevant.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 That's a straw man argument, I never said anything like that.
Your position may be that trigger reset length is irrelevant, but that is solely your opinion, and you are trying to make out Jarrett/Leatham's advice as support for your opinion. Even though they consistently use pistols with short trigger reset.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine LOL that is EXACTLY what you said condensed, learn what a strawman is you sound ignorant as hell (even for you gaslight) when you accuse somebody of it without understanding what it is, K thanks little guy.
BTW, Jarrett specifically says the trigger sweep technique is best taught to LE who might have to use a different gun because it works with ALL handguns, not just Para LDAs and 1911s SOURCE imomags(.)com/blog/2011/05/25/a-sweeping-trigger-technique/ YOU LOSE AGAIN LMAO
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 That advice for LE is invalid for a standard US Military pistol as if they had one standard pistol they'd all have the same short consistent trigger. No need for lowest common denominator approach to training.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Hmmm, you're worthless opinion as "some guy on the Internet" VS Jarrett's credentials as a decorated military/LE instructor, competition shooter an well-respected intellectual in the shooting community.....troll harder you fag. BTW they have 1 standard pistol. So they do have consistency, thus nullifying your ignorance again. Also, ever hear of procure on-site? military more than LE use the weapons available on the battlefield in a pinch, use your brain instead of your ass
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 What I've pointed out speaks for itself. Jarrett doesn't recommend 92FS, especially not for military service. I don't troll. You troll with obscene insults.
DoD don't have 1 standard pistol: M1911 remains in use and M11 for those who don't have huge hands for M9's Glock-21 sized grip. That's 3. You KNOW that, you've been caught lying again.
(Procure-on-site is for emergencies, not to be depended upon.)
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Yep, what you said really does speak for itself but it's not a very extensive vocabulary, just says herp derp and drools a lot LOL. The infantry does have one standard pistol, SF gets to use what they like an the 228 (all insignificant 7000 pistols) was only for military police agencies so including them in the discussion is a true strawman, see what you're doing, that's actually how strawman works. Dummy.
Fact always beats trolling, back under your bridge you greasy troll
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 You insult my vocabulary when your post are filled with elementary spelling mistakes, obscene swearing and vile insults. So a hypocrite as well as a liar. You also clearly don't know what a Strawman argument is
M11 is not only of military police and you dodge M1911's continued use. Typical.
I think this is the end, I've proven you wrong and you'd admitted every failing to leave only insufficient excuses and weird opinion remaining.
... That and your pathetic attempts at insults.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine 500 word limit dummy, easier to fit "your" in as opposed to "you're" given the limit. 228 was only issued to military law enforcement olive-drab(.)com/od_other_firearms_pistol_m11(.)php YOU LOSE AGAIN. Didn't dodge, 1911 is a SF caveat, It doesn't matter because SF use what they like, under your rationale you could call the MP5 an infantry weapon, FOOL en(.)wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Straw_man There, now you can learn to use it properly without further wallowing in ignorance
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 I've lost nothing, except fail to cure your delusions
Marine expeditionary are not special forces, no choice in pistol, 1911 issue. Infantry and Air-force-pilots and others DO use M11
watch?v=L3ZBfbXBOrU
DoD still need to stock for 3 different pistols, which was my point.
You can't just cite the definition of Strawman and then CONTINUE to misuse it.
You have acted like a bully, every weakness of your position you turn around to hurl as an insult. Its a blatant defence mechanism.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine LMAO that's your proof? A YT video by some guy on the Internet? Your stupidity is beyond hopeless. I want legitimate proof Dutchess dumb ass, military ID numbers (the kind of evidence I provide) not random YT videos with nothing substantive, or prove that infantry receiving the M11/1911 is getting it for reason other than supply shortage. Playing in the big leagues (like me) requires legitimate evidence, not whatever your paint thinner addled brain latches onto at the time
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Are you saying that entire video was faked??!? WHY?! HOW?!? You've had your proof, now you are just denying the obvious. Pig-headedly denying and lying.
PS: you aren't even very good at insults.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine I'm saying that all evidence is not created equal, a video of "some guy" dressed in military outfits at a random shooting range with no designation/identification is NOT the equivalent of DOD case numbers, do you really not realize that? You that stupid? Don't bother I know the answer, you are. To quote tombstone, no need to go healed to get the bulge on a dub like you.
You want to be taken seriously little guy you've got to do better, although given your brain ailments...
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 It still makes no sense to fake being in the US Army just to prove my point. Or do you think they conspired with me? You're simply in denial. And what is this "DoD case numbers" you mean those % figures you listed without a source? You mean that 70'000PSI overpressure claim without a source. How about this:
thegunzone(.)com/m9-a.html
Says it was mere subsonic 147gr rounds.
70'000PSI to get 147gr under 1100f/s? Bullshit
(You'll find space for grammar if you spare the petty insults)
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Since when do you care about sources?. You've used like 3 an all of them shit. 70,000 PSI was just a little fun on my part to see if you would actually post a source and good for you caveman, you tried.... however, once again superior evidence is mine americanrifleman(.)org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-11/2009111213533-beretta92(.)pdf The military was experimenting with high pressure powder mixtures, no question, because they admit to changing the mixture. Now eat shit again LMAO
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 You don't get it, you have to use SUPPORTING sources. Not ANY source. That source stated they were using standard issue M882 ammo. That is PRECISELY the stock ammo the XM9 trials demand all pistols be fit to fire! It is not ~50'000PSI and especially not 70'000PSI. M882 Powder was made weaker because the pistol wasn't strong enough. M9 LOWERED standards!
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Wow, you're stupider than I thought. 1 That's the same ammo used in the trials, you know the ones the M9 outscored the competition in dummy. 2 I already posted evidence showing they were experimenting with over pressured ammunition, my last link merely confirms the ammo they were using was too hot for ALL platforms. YOU HAVE NO PROOF the M9 lowered the standard, JUST YOUR WORTHLESS OPINION. For the thousandth time, post evidence. Jizzing all over your Glock isn't evidence
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Yeah, you posted a source that doesn't corroborate your claim. You are lying or stupid to say it does.
I DO have proof the M9 lowered standard. The STANDARD 9mm ammunition (which was not loaded particularly hot) was lowered! YOU posted that evidence!
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine ROFLMFAO, just when I think you can't get any stupider you pull this out of you're no doubt well reamed out ass. The link I posted showed that it was too hot for ALL platforms, dummy. You continually misrepresent/lie about the code of uniformity, it was NEVER meant to apply to machine gun ammo for duty use in pistols 100% of the time, just emergency instances. Here, learn something you blubbering dolt files(.)uzitalk(.)com/reference/pages/ammo(.)htm
you're dismissed cunt
bigboss686 1 month ago 2
@bigboss686 No. M882 was used in XM9 trials. M882 was supposed to be used for the M9 on duty. Beretta admitted that caused their pistols to explode catastrophically so the M882 standard was changed to much lower power. The 9x19mm S&W Model 39's the SEALs had used since Vietnam didn't catastrophically explode nor any problems, even using M882 even before it was downgraded for the M9.
PS: that source is irrelevant, proves nothing.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Yes, M882 was used for the tests. No it was never meant to be as hot as the munitions divisions eventually made it, they were experimenting with higher pressure blends specifically meant for submachine guns, not everything. Alterations to M882 occurred AFTER the trials, it was never static. That's why there were NO issues during the trials, dummy. It really is sick the way you twist everything and ignore evidence, but for a simpleton like you the best you can do is lie
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 WHAT? M882 was standardised in pressure. Beretta did NOT lay the blame at special high-pressure blends, but STANDARD M882 rounds! So the STANDARD of M882 was lowered. It's a totally irrelevant side issue that some high-pressure SMG 9mm were being tested elsewhere, YOUR SOURCE has Beretta lay the blame on STANDARD M882 rounds.
What's this about modifying M9 with custom triggers? That's not an option for service pistols!
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Pay attention dummy, the military used 9mm SMG's BEFORE 9mm pistols. "Standard" M882s designed for sub guns specifically, NOT pistols of ANY kind. Military brass assumed it wouldn't be a problem, they assumed wrong. Nevertheless, none of that changes the FACT the M9 scored best in trials, only long-term use could show this issue, and that only on a measly 14 guns. I'll take the most well recognized gun review publication of all time over your worthless opinion dip shit.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 But the whole reason for a 9mm service pistol is to use ALL 9mm ammo in stock! NATO standard. Logistical efficiency. SEALs S&W M39 took that ammo no problem for decades. M9s started exploding within months of adoption! 14 out of a few thousand.
XM9 trials were obviously not thorough enough (distinct from 'not harsh enough') if pistols that passed the test exploded catastrophically using the ammo they were designated to use. M882 is not SMG-only.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Sad your limited intelligence couldn't grasp it. Yes, standardization. No it wasn't designed for anything but SMG's prior to adoption of a 9 mm platform pistol. M882 WAS designed SMG only, no standardized 9 mm platform existed prior to 85, therefore the stockpile WAS specifically for smg's. The M39 was a specialty weapon, not a standard issue, dummy. Analogy, trying to use 18 wheeler parts( SMG ammo) in a pickup (M9) won't work, that's what the Army mistakenly tried to do.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Why have the same calibre ammunition for pistols and SMGs if the ammo is not interchangeable! It's a recipe for disaster if a round will fit and feed and match barrel designation on a pistol yet risk exploding it!
It should be easy for a pistol to take same ammo as an SMG. Other armies can do it. The SEALs DID do it! Their S&W M39 was not special, it's 20 years older design than Beretta 92.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Obviously someone in the military intelligentsia was as ignorant as you an thought it wouldn't be a problem. BTW you're referencing the M39 is a strawman, it was NOT intended for full duty, specialty weapon only dummy. Other armies do it by standardizing pressure to safe levels for ALL platforms, something the military neglected. At first. LOL at you thinking the M39 was designed for a steady diet of +P+ ammo on a regular basis, it wasn't an infantry issue weapon. DIP SHIT
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 You can't label every good counter-argument as a Strawman as S&W-M39 is a perfect refutation of your claim that no pistol can handle 9mm issued to SMG, that very basic low-tech pistol handled them in extensive infantry use, and SEALs are a kind of infantry (they sure aren't pilots or chefs).
M882 is NOT +P+ ammo, it's 31000PSI, well below SAAMI pressure limit for regular P 9x19mm
inetres(.)com/gp/military/infantry/pistol/pistol_ammo.html
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Since you've never made a good counterargument and only strawmen. I actually can. The M39 is a strawman as it was never intended to be a full on infantry weapon, everything is rated for a few rounds of high pressure ammunition, there's a difference between occasionally VS consistently. BTW I wonder if you're realizing that the source you cite essentially contradicts your point about there even being a necessity to handle hot ammo? Doubtful, you are dumb as hell after all.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 SEALs fired more of Model 39 in its decades of service than the few-months of service Berettas saw before they started exploding using the same ammunition.
Source is consistent in the description of M882 ammunition being fit for pistols, something that Beretta (in your source) admitted was cause of explosions.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine LOL so you say, but once again you provide nonexistent evidence, how sad that you are so so very stupid.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@Treblaine Leatham/Jarrett work for 1911 manufacturers, They gain financially by lying an saying reset is important, yet they don't, why? It's called integrity, that you don't have. As for Wilson, used a M9 in competition for many years an said it is a fine/reliable gun, he needn't say that about another manufacturer's product, yet he did. Preference doesn't mean you don't recognize excellence elsewhere. Also, we are talking about defensive shooting, not competition shooting, idiot.
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 So you admit competitive shooting is different from defensive (combat) shooting? FINALLY! Size/weight can be huge in competition. Don't try to use reductionist fallacies dismissing each point with contradictions, the M9 remains OVERALL an unsuited pistol for its role. Trigger CAN cause problems.
High frame Safety is harder to actuate while holding (if you have less than large hands) yet more exposed is easier to accidentally release. No cocked-and-locked.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine Admit? Oh that's right, I forgot your stupid as hell and can't remember it's like the second or third thing I brought up, you dumb ass. Unsuited for its role? Do I really have to post the scores again? It tied or exceeded the 226 in every way, end of story. BTW M9 is still 1 ounce less than the 226, which BOTH have aluminum frames, Also no cocked/locked option applies to the 226 as well, further fail for you fag fool. Keep drinking that grain alcohol you huckleberry cunt
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 The irony of saying "your stupid as hell". It's "you're".
It's a straw man bringing up mere environment testing, the test comparisons of XM9 trials did not factor size/weight/ergonomics.
92FS Aluminium = 970g
P226 Aluminium = 837g (both with empty mag)remtek(.)com/arms/sig/model/226/226.htm
Glock effectively has a cocked-locked option as the striker is cocked and internally locked. Also, P226 at least has lighter DA pull and never have to worry about manual safety.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine LOL I'll take the manufacturer's word as opposed to a ridiculous third-party site, thanks. Size/weight/ergonomics are irrelevant to a military pistol, going bang is all that matters, everything else is superfluous. Lots of soldiers want AK-47s as opposed to M4, they don't care that it's heavier they want something that goes bang every time! BTW they told Gaston to take his Glock an go fuck himself, just like you shove your pencil sized Pecker in a Glock barrel to jerk off
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 That's a Guns & Ammo article, you should have checked.
"Size/weight/ergonomics are irrelevant to a military pistol" that's YOUR crazy opinion, why not a Hi Point modified for double stack?
AK vs M4 is a very different as it is for a far heavier cartridge and fire-rate. We are comparing pistols of identical calibre with more or less identical durability. YOU are making a straw man argument.
Also a liar, saying DoD told Glock to "Fuck off". And you continue with futile insults.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine I did, you aware that is reviewing a model that had an internal extractor, something the trial guns didn't have? No because you're a moron. Size/weight etc ARE irrelevant, that's DOD's opinion, but of course, you know more than DoD troll LOL. BTW if DoD didn't tell Gaston to fuck off were was it in the trials fag? An don't give me that reliability crap, it had NO record of merit. Remember were talking about gen 1 glock, not the gen 3 glock gained its inflated reputation on
bigboss686 1 month ago
@bigboss686 Internal extractor doesn't change P226's weight significantly.
You can't just wish away size and weight problems, DoD played it by numbers and lost sight of their objective, armies have made this mistake so many times before. Similar with the SA80 rifle series in UK.
Gen 1 Glocks still better than the latest 92FS/M9.
Treblaine 1 month ago
@Treblaine No doesn't change significantly, just enough to make it heavier LOL. There is NO size/weight problem, those are irrelevant an take a distant second to reliability, reliability scores favor the M9. Love your rationale btw, reliability? Fuck it, it's more important how heavy it is or feels in my hand as opposed to if it goes bang every time, style over substance, that's you.
Gen1 glock is better? PROVE IT, but don't be stupid an link me to a gen 2 test or higher dip shit
bigboss686 1 month ago