Ruth and the Disease of Alcoholism (Part 1 of 2)

[Konradeconstruction]

Alcoholism isn't a disease. People make the choices to drink. Addiction, however, is real. But at the same time one builds up to that addiction, and it is an addiction that is terribly hard to break. But at one point or another one must MAN up and quit feeling sorry for themselves. It will hurt, but it WILL ultimately make you a much better, happier person. If you can't overcome alcoholism for yourself, think of the ones you love. Feeling sorry for yourself is the WORST thing you can do

[beautifulmind546]

Hey Ruth, you went through some tought beginnings AND THEN YOU MADE BAD CHOICES.  You don't have a disease and no matter how many times you use the word disease you still don't have a disease. And to the comment below yes there is a difference between ppl who choose to be drunks and ppl who don't and the difference is the ppl who choose not to have more courage. There are no chemical or physiological differences and to beLIEve so is to lie to yourself.

[Polaris382]

No, my point was (and of course countless people will disagree with this) that the condition of Alcoholism (and this is based off of personal experience) isnt a choice. I very much believe that there is something different-whether chemically or physiologically or whatever in the Brain of an alcoholic as compared to non alcoholics. My point is those things arent a choice, but continuing to drink/being a "practicing" alcoholic is.

[Polaris382]

Alcoholism is a condition whether you want to call it a "disease" or not. Alcoholism ISNT a choice, drinking ultimately is though.

[Hammersley1967]

@Polaris382

"Alcoholism ISNT a choice, drinking ultimately is though."

A conscious behaviour that doesn't involve choice?

How can that be even remotely possible?

Alcoholism is a pattern of drinking behavour. And by your logic, it therefore involves choice.

[JudgeD007]

Alcoholism is NOT a Disease.

If you claim it is then:-

it is the only disease that is openly sold in bottles.

It is the only disease that is advertised on TV - encouraging people to drink the stuff.

It is the only disease that earns money for the government.

STOP PROMOTING IT and STOP DRINKING IT.

IF YOU DON'T drink you cannot catch it because this is no virus or germs associated with it.

[Hammersley1967]

@JudgeD007

Ummmm...

I think that you're confusing ALCOHOLISM with ALCOHOL.

The point that disease theory advocates are making is that the locus of alcoholism resides within the ALCOHOLIC not ALCOHOL.

Thus, because the "disease" is within the alcoholic, it can't be:

"openly sold in bottles"

"advertised on TV"

or...

"earn money for the government"

Get it?

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

Confusing alcohol with alcoholism is like confusing Hiv with aids.

The government is odin so much to prevent the spreadig of Hiv because doctors believe it can be the cause of aids. However... there are plenty of people which never develope symptoms, ironically...

So Iwonder why government spends so much money to prevent Hiv, but barelly does any effort to stop the spread of alcohol.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"Confusing alcohol with alcoholism is like confusing Hiv with aids"

How so? Someone who drinks alcohol does not become infected with a virus called "ethanol" which develops into an infectious disease called "alcoholism".

Alcohol is a substance (not a virus) and alcoholism is a behavior (not a disease).

Your analogy doesn't hold up.

"I wonder why government spends so much money to prevent Hiv, but barelly does any effort to stop the spread of alcohol"

Because of the liquor tax.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

Of course I'm aware that ethanol isn't a bacterium or virus.

Bur still I think the analogy is more true than people sketch it.

You know... just because you get in contact with a bacterium or virus doesn't necesserily leads to a disease.

Thanks god for that, or there would be much much more STD's children diseases, and what not.

In a disease... the cause must be there, but also it has to accompanied by circumstances.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"just because you get in contact with a bacterium or virus doesn't necesserily leads to a disease"

As far as HIV is concerned, those who undergo treatment (namely Highly Active Antiretroviral Therapy - HAART) generally don't go on to develop full blown AIDS. But those who don't receive this treatment invariably go on to develop AIDS (if they don't die of something else in the meantime).

Alcoholism is not an involuntary disease, so I repeat, your analogy doesn't hold up.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

I'd like to stick to the STD analogy for a little longer...

If you have intercourse with somebody who has germs for diseases you have to it without protection, AND you have to exchange body liquids. But in fact it is extremely unlikely to get anything at all if you don't have tiny skin damages through which blood can be exchanged.

And with alcohol it is similiar.

YOu have to it without protection ( family or friends) and you have to have a pre existing damage in order to get sic

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"intercourse with somebody who has germs for diseases you have to it without protection AND you have to exchange body liquids. But in fact it is extremely unlikely to get anything at all if you dont have tiny skin damages through which blood can be exchanged. And with alcohol it is similar"

How is it similar? No exchange of blood/semen occurs and no virus is transmitted. Alcoholism is not an involuntary nor contagious disease. It is a conscious behavior. The analogy is illogical.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

unsafe sex with people of dubious health status is also completly free will behaviour.. well in the most cases I guess.

Also what you said is inaccurate. Not everybody who gets in contact with germs develope diseases.

And you don't necesseraliy have to go into that therapy in order to not develope the disease.

Sure it might help some people, but most can't afford it anyways.

FIrst... 1% of whites is immune to aids, and similiar many are immue to other diseases.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"Not everybody who gets in contact with germs develope diseases."

What is the disease of alcoholism then?

What is the disease etiology, disease entity, and symptomology?

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

Buddy... I said before that alcohol is not litearary a germ, it's just a paraphrase.

However many of the qualities of germs and diseases also apply for allcoholism and alcohol.

And.... how free you are to drink alcohol is relative.

Just think of student organizetions or the army. Where you either join the comrades in stupid drinking games or get excluded from the ' clique'.

social isolation is a bad bad form of torture, mate.

They also torture recruits physical if they refuse to

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"However many of the qualities of germs and diseases also apply for allcoholism and alcohol."

How so?

What is the disease entity?

"And.... how free you are to drink alcohol is relative."

Unless physically restrained and alcohol is forcibly poured down my throat I am completely free to choose whether to drink or not...

A conscious behaviour cannot bypass choice...

To suggest so, is a psychological absurdity...

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"Just think of student organizetions or the army."

If you are a member of a student organisation or inducted into the armed forces, you are just as free not to drink alcohol as the next person.

If you drink to "fit in", than that is a conscious decision has been made based on the pros and cons of social inclusion or alienation...

To suggest that a choice is not made is absurd...

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"social isolation is a bad bad form of torture, mate."

I do not drink alcohol. I have been a university student and a manual labourer - socially mixing with heavy drinkers.

I made the choice to abstain from alcohol based on the advantages and detriments of both drinking alcohol and social inclusion and alienation...

If I had chosen to drink, a conscious decision would have also been made, based on the pros and cons of both drinking alcohol and social inclusion and alienation...

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967 drink.

Yes... student clubs and soldiers FORCE people to drink.

And alcoholism symptoms are easy to recall..

just say... dehydration, hangover, inadequate diet, inability to coordinate leave alone drive, Corsakov syndrom, swelling livers, increased risk of heart attack, serious brain damage, loss of conscience, picking fights, insulting people, loss of memory, verbal impotence, penile dysfunction, bad smell, ugly nose, loss of skin elastity, tolerance towards alcohol.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"Yes... student clubs and soldiers FORCE people to drink."

So they tie them down and pour alcohol down their necks do they?

And THAT'S how an individual becomes an alcoholic? By force?

Ridiculous...

Ridiculous...

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"dehydration" is a symptom of lack of fluids in the system, not alcoholism.

"inadequate diet" is a behaviour not a symptom of anything.

"Korsakoff's Syndrome" is a neurological disorder caused by the lack of thiamine (vitamin B1) in the brain. It is a disease in and of itself - not a symptom of anything.

"Picking fights" is a behaviour not a symptom of a disease called alcoholism.

Following this line of logic, hitting a tennis ball is a symptom of a disease called "tennis"...

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

Though some of your aruguments might seem sound.

Your the one talking psychological absurdity saying peer pressure leaves still full personal free choice.

Maybe the army in america is different from our armies in europe.

Or maybe your student organizations are different, that's possible.

Let me tell you what they do.

In the army everybody HAS to drink.

There is always one or two brave people who refuse first.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"Maybe the army in america is different from our armies in europe. Or maybe your student organizations are different, that's possible."

I come from Australia. Australia is one of the hardest drinking nations on earth...

"In the army everybody HAS to drink."

Is there a law is there? A strict induction regulation? You can't join if you don't drink?

Or perhaps the commanders use a special rack and shackles to restrain the non-drinking servicemen with and force them to drink?

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"There is always one or two brave people who refuse first."

I've refused to drink for 16 years...

My father was in the Air Force and served in Vietnam...

He didn't drink a drop in his life...

Neither of us consider ourselves "brave" for abstaining from alcohol...

Rather we think of it as a rational DECISION...

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

But the people who refuse are then tortured into submission.

They start by doing stuff to you, while your at sleep, then they continue to lock you up in your own locker, and place it upside down...and just leave you in there.

They probably also put disgusting stuff in your food, break or throw away your personal stuff,

shave off your hair, while your asleep... or mark you as a possible rape victim.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

And in FACT holding people down and forcing alcohol in their stomache by funnel really happens.

Though I never seen this kind of tactic, my self. It is a common known fact that places that have a strong drinking culture hardly ever except abstinency.

Also ... if you want to join a student club... They let you compete in drinking games first.

Student clubs also torture people into submission, to create an inflated ' honour' to belong to the club.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"And in FACT holding people down and forcing alcohol in their stomache by funnel really happens."

I see...

"Though I never seen this kind of tactic, my self."

IS THAT RIGHT!!!?

"Student clubs also torture people into submission, to create an inflated ' honour' to belong to the club."

Torture? Submission? My goodness!

German universities sound like they have a lively, yet brutal, culture...

Sounds like a resurgence of 1939 German politics on the university campus!!! (卐)

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

hmmm... no in fact there is no law that you have to drink, which is implemented by drill sergeants or university deans.

It is more like a kind of involuntary peer pressure.

Normal peer pressure you will experience if you want to join a club or clique.

In students orgnaizations that peer pressure is in often formalized into some kind of initiation year in which you have to do ridiculous humiliatiing things, and get drunk a lot.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

In the army... in fact your not supposed to be drunk on duty, but in the baraks you have to drink to survive the kind of brutal peer pressure enforced on you by your fellow comrades.

Though... that is hopefully about to change.

Because more and more countries in europe end the peoples armies and instead go over to proffessional armies.

See the draft gets young men into the army. Most intilligent people sneak away from the draft. What's left are rambo idiots.

[groeneduim]

Auf dieses Video antworten... And I heard rumors that in certain professions people even get drunnk on the workfloor, and consider you some kind of outsider if you don't.

So in certain environments young people, especially men get a much higher risk of infection with the alcohol than in others, making them vulnerable and decreasing free will.

Though I agree with you that not drinking is a sound decision. But I'm supporting a global ban on ALL drugs including most important... alcohol.

[groeneduim]

Auf dieses Video antworten... How ever, that other thing which you said, I didn't get it.

Why does it matter that the direct genetical causation for alcoholism hasn't been identified even bother you, there is such a strong correlation of alcoholism which runs in the family, even if the children are gven to adoption at early age.

Also, what was that about the biochemical factors?

Of course it has been proven that people vary in the degree of their alcohol Intolerance.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"there is such a strong correlation of alcoholism which runs in the family"

A WEAK correlation...

The point is, this WEAK correlation is more suggestive of a familial social learning than biogenic transmission...

"what was that about the biochemical factors?"

What about 'em?

"it has been proven that people vary in the degree of their alcohol Intolerance."

Intolerance to what?

And why do you keep prefacing your comments with "Respond to this video"?

[groeneduim]

Auf dieses Video antworten... Of course... we are ALL intolerant to alcohol. Some people just happen to less intolerant to the poison, and many people get more and more used to it after a while.

This... in fact might also have genitical reasons.

I mean... in the country where my fiance comes from many people are moderate tolerant, but also many people are completly intolerant. They get drunk after one sip, and sick after one glass.

While, where I live everybody has a high tolerance.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

And about the causation...

Genetic factors... children of alcoholics are likely to become one themself,

chemical factors... how your body reacts to the poison ( as said before some people are blessed to get sick immedeantly)

behaviouristic factors... you learn to be a drunk in a social setting

personality factors... pre existing problems

and of course... the alcohol itself.

I'm not a doctor, neither is english my mother tongue, I don't know disease entities meaning.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"Genetic factors... children of alcoholics are likely to become one themself"

Their has been 45 years of biogenetic research into the matter and no genetic causal link to alcoholism has been identified...

"chemical factors... how your body reacts to the poison"

There has been over 80 years of biomedical research into the matter and not one metabolic causal link to alcoholism has been found...

As a PhD candidate, I have researched the biomedical canon of knowledge for 5 years ...

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"behaviouristic factors... you learn to be a drunk in a social setting"

Sure... But social learning has nothing to do with "disease" and EVERYTHING to do with choice...

There is no such thing as a conscious behaviour bypassing choice...

The very suggestion runs counter to the verified mechanics of psychology...

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

Non whites... is not really researched very well, thought there are whole regions in south america and other primitve cultures were HIV virusses and other germs are raving, with enourmously high infection rate, though very few people seem to develope symptoms.

And alcohol is similiar. There are people who are simply immune to alcoholism.

They get sick and throw immedeantly, therefor cannot enjoy it.

Some regiions have a majority of those people.

[groeneduim]

@Hammersley1967

And the last thing I want to say is that alcohol isn't always free choice at all.

Many young boys and girls just start drinking because of peer pressure ( again similiar to unsafe sex practices).

In Europe the army, professional schools, University and sport clubs, even churches basically all social clubs or professional clubs are guilty of leading people to drink and think it is acceptable.

So it is indeed like catching a germ some where.

[Hammersley1967]

@groeneduim

"So it is indeed like catching a germ some where."

OK, if a person drinks alcohol what exactly is "caught" from alcohol?

What is the "infection"?

How does a person "catch" alcoholism from alcohol?

How does one "catch" a behaviour from an inanimate substance?

Where is this alcoholism germ?

[Morethanenough1]

Alcoholism is a sad addictiona nd its good that you stopped...but its NOT a disease.

[Modacolorist]

Yah bless you,