Full Decriminalization vs Legalization {or..my cat is super cute}

[kommissarw]

Decriminalisation, removal of laws.

Legalisation, imposition of laws.

I don't get why ppl find this hard to grasp. When there are laws passed, they will conform to an interest groups adgenda. By removal of laws, the sex workers get to make their own arrangements either in isolation, co-op.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@kommissarw Exactly. Thanks for stopping by!

Laurel

[62netty]

Subbed, excellent video. One little remark; Amsterdam is not in Germany, but in the Netherlands, my country. But you're right, the legalization of prostitution in this country didn't benefit the sex-workers. What's changed for them is that they have to pay taxes now.

True decriminalisation would be a much better solution. But I fear it will take a long time before sex-workers will be accepted like other professionals, and not seen as victims or as criminals.

Hypocrisy still rules this land.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@62netty thank you for watching :) Perhaps it was the way i spoke, but when i mentioned Amsterdam and Germany, i was speaking about them as seperate places with forms of legalization :)

Again, thank you for your words :)

!aymi

[rriverstone1]

I trailed in her cuz of Divinity's latest video. It's almost 3 am & I seriously need 2 sleep...it's new year's & I'm falling in love with someone from the U.K. who just woke up, with whom I just finished a Skype. So, I'm not going 2 study the low bar right now. I have nothing profound 2 add 2 this discussion. Just want u 2 know I appreciate your articulation & that, while I may b the oldest champion u have, I am a sister & support your effort.not my 1st time @ the show. shit's gotta change.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@rriverstone1 change has got to come! thank you for being here :)

~aymi

[rriverstone1]

@YeOldeHeretic I have a feeling I may do some rambling that includes this issue. I have things to say about sexuality, gender and love, anyway. Not to include sex workers issues would b idiotic. stay tuned

[Eminemno1fan]

Excellent video.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@Eminemno1fan thank you for watching :)

~aymi

[greenghost2008]

Legalize it.

[Divinity33372]

@greenghost2008 decriminalize



[Divinity33372]

@~>~~

[Feverwood]

I enjoyed this video, and it was very informative. So as a fellow Canuck, what can I do to help Decriminalize, without being seen as a degenerate Trannie?

[mickGPN]

I realised yet another problem with Decrim - It makes voters even less willing to fund exit strategies. I mean, why would they, if it's just about moving out of one 'normal job' and into another? The details of my arguments (along with lots of data, from a pro-decrim source) are available on the video response to this vid. Your comments are welcome...

[defcore108]

You just made me seriously rethink my country's (Germany's) take on sex work legislation. Thanks a lot for that. :-)

[YeOldeHeretic]

@defcore108 That's what i'm here for. ;)

~aymi

[WatcherAzazel]

Just to be clear, though, I agree that currently existing legal systems are utterly insane, and detrimental to the rights of sex workers. But, you seem to apply the term "legalized" to every possible, hypothetical system in which the government could have a hand in regulating the sex industry (forgive me if I misunderstood that). Could you ever imagine any variation of a legalized system that you wouldn't see as unthinkable?

[YeOldeHeretic]

@WatcherAzazel I'm for the model they have in New Zealand, for example (called decrim). Why do i need to think up a variation of a legalized system, when there is already a model i am for. ~aymi

[WatcherAzazel]

@YeOldeHeretic I was simply trying to make a point that, since "legalization" could mean a wide variety of different systems, it seems a bit simplistic to just say "legalization bad, decriminalization good."

[WatcherAzazel]

Alot of these arguments could be applied to liquor as well (only in designated places, requires a special license from the government, etc.). I'd rather see it legalized, but then kick the government out of ALL these businesses (ie, pay the same taxes as every other business). It think that would send a stronger message against government attempts to regulate our morality.

[mickGPN]

An excellent explanation of why Legalised Brothels are a complete non-starter. At least we can all agree on that. I'm looking forward to you doing some more stuff on Sweden and New South Wales. The same areas as I'm going to be concentrating on, as it happens :-)

[thethegreenmachine]

It takes me forever to find the relevant vid I'm looking for. watch?v=el1CdxiDo6M

[Zaimren]

@THELOVEHELIX  Have you tried fiber?

[thethegreenmachine]

@Zaimren lol

[boobootoob]

I really hope that people look at the responses and the original videos. So many times I see hundreds of views and comments on videos for the pro side making disparaging remarks about anti positions, but when a video response is made it is ignored, or not treated seriously, no comments, just down votes. This is no way reflects on the attitudes of aymi, or Laurel or Fem Whore, those three I feel safe speaking nicely about. It's just the climate. So I hope people take a look see, and I am excited

[trifelgeputinage]

Good video that seems to have provoked some constructive dialogue and debate - shock horror!

[YeOldeHeretic]

@MsPureFiction007 :)

~a

[phenixwryter]

I learned a lot-thanks very much and thanks for the links, too.

The list of rights that sex workers want looks sensible to me.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@phenixwryter i like hearing that i made people think :)

thank you for your comment :)

~a

[DanaGarrett]

You make many good & convincing arguments for decriminalization and against mere legalization. But I wonder what you say to the person who argued that society has a compelling interest to periodically check the health of sex workers regarding communicable diseases and, therefore, the licensing of sex workers is necessary if only for that purpose.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@DanaGarrett I think what i have to say on that would be too long for a comment. :) I'll certainly answer, in my next video about this. :) Thanks for watching. ~a

[iamcuriousblue]

Thanks for providing a more patient response to Booboo than I could. In my discussions with her, she seems pretty committed to "winning" the argument through strawmanning, twisting my arguments around, and cherry-picking sources. My patience with her is shot. Maybe your long and detailed response will make a point with her, or perhaps not, but it provides some excellent background and explanations for all in the debate, in any event.

[Wolfau5]

If in a system sex work (specifically prostitution) is recognised as a legitimate profession (ie census data, paying income tax for earnings, brothels being considered a business etc), then I don't understand how that is considered "decriminalisation" and not "legalisation".

Is it that brothels/prostitutes require additional licenses and additional taxes in a "legalised" system?

I agree that the focus of any such system should be on the welfare and dignity of the worker.

Long, but worthwhile.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@Wolfau5 Areas with legalization still have laws based around prostitution being a vice, so contrained & controlled. Can't work alone in a legalized system, vice taxes..and many many other problems i laid out in the video. Decrim. removes all the laws for consentual adult prostitution. Read some of the links i've provided here, may help you out a bit more. :) If you still have questions pm me, i'd be happy to answer you. Read particularily the pdf, beyond decrim, if you have the time. ~a

[Wolfau5]

@YeOldeHeretic So do you believe there should be no government regulations for voluntary adult prostitution (ie mandatory condom use, safety/hygeine standards, regular screening for STI's)?

Having a quick look at "beyond decrim", its... comprehensive.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@Wolfau5 No that is not what i believe. I believe there should be fair and equal treatment of sex workers. Fair and balanced regulation, where sex workers are at the discussion tables when these types of regulations get put into place. Beyond Decrim is certainly comprehensive however that is the best document i can point you to, without writing an essay; as well as the book i have in the low bar, (Taking the Crime Out of Sex Work: New Zealand Sex Workers' Fight for Decriminalisation) ~a :)

[YeOldeHeretic]

@Wolfau5 i'll certainly make a follow up video sometime :) ~a

[Wolfau5]

@YeOldeHeretic Yeah, I was going to suggest you should make a follow up video on what regulations you are in favour of. From a public health perspective I am quite in favour of the idea of encouraging education, incentivising safer sex practices and encouraging regular testing.

I would also be interested in the topic of exit strategies, ie what's been tried, what's effective etc (I think one of the core issues is giving sex workers power by giving them options).

[thethegreenmachine]

I like the idea of the co-op. The workers should own the business, but don't. It's a major problem in (nearly?) all industries.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@thethegreenmachine certainly a co-op can be one option for sex workers, but also allowing us to work as other self employed people, as part of a collective etc... ~a

[thethegreenmachine]

@YeOldeHeretic Yup. There's no good reason to separate the sex workers out from the rest. They should have the same options. Btw, the cat looked pretty annoyed by all the talking :) "Hey lady I'm sleeping here."

[YeOldeHeretic]

@thethegreenmachine She is my body double :)

& that's just her intense listening face. She is the best cat ever.

~a

[YeOldeHeretic]

@aymi *ehem* the best cat ever besides Ellios & Cole. :p

<3

Laurel

[thethegreenmachine]

@YeOldeHeretic She does a good job. Now you just have to teach her to pretend she's talking, like Mr. Ed.

[BobChaos23]

Exceptionally well said, and I don't think it was that long...not only is this deep subject matter, but you make it seem shorter with it being well presented.

Plus, who doesn't like kitties? =^_^=

[AliceinHats]

There are many people many many that argue for the brothel model. I think they do so without weighing how restrictive and paternalistic it is. I've noticed that in general sex workers are not interested in unionizing. I wish that would happen in porn, boom at least 50 percent of problems cleared up there. But illegal porn would have to be prosecuted, I wish people just owned their own images. I do think different categories can be treated differently as well. But I want transparency.

[Divinity33372]

@AliceinHats 1) "There are many people many many that argue for the brothel model." The only time I ever hear the Nevada model (if that's what you're referring to) brought up is when some anti-porner brings it up and argues against it as if that's what we've said we wanted. i.e. strawman 2) "I've noticed that in general sex workers are not interested in unionizing." Where do you get that from? We are concerned with unionizing but when almost half the country are "right to work" states...

[Divinity33372]

@AH ...& the states that CAN unionize are feeling the GOP push it bust the unions that do exist it's hard to talk of unionizing in the sex industry when we're stuck protecting the political ground the thought we already gained. (mostly a U.S. issue)

[AliceinHats]

@Divinity33372 well whenever this topic gets brought up people talk about it, and the peach, that lil tiny you tuber with no pull, praised it in the giant collab video. I hope that more want to unionize. And yes, unions are really hard in a general sense, they are so demonized, I think it's beyond GOP now as well.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@AliceinHats i actually did not agree with most of what she said in that video.(peach) i've never been for the nevada model and you would be hard pressed to find a sex worker run group who is. i've always spoken against it and i've been in sex worker activism for a long time (off of youtube). ~a

[AliceinHats]

@YeOldeHeretic yeah, i thought we were against that. And it seemed to me at the time that "even the pros" as I said don't like that model. I was puzzled. As far as I was concerned her segments were misinformation and zomgits told me that her views are not peach's either, and that's the downfall of a compilation video. But I wonder why they made it? IDK.

[xxxild]

@AliceinHats It looked like everyone was happy in those clips. I took issue with it immediately.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@AliceinHats Also the other problem with unionizing is the stigma, many may not want to be a known sex worker. Even after the laws change. Changing the laws is one step, after which we have a lot of repairing to do. A lot of educating. ~a

[Elenkhos]

Nice vid very informative....

[AliceinHats]

Goood Moooorning, I'm here and I'm not queer. Just started listening, but I got up late so sorry it took so long to approve. The volume is low, this might take me awhile to get through. Your description box is very good. Most of those rights I agree with immediately without question, possibly even regardless of the model in any given place. Some are things I would have to know more about and depend on other factors (of course). Ok listening. And you might not hear from me for awhile, but u will

[AliceinHats]

I wish I could read that New Zealand book. No matter how I look at this there will always be some aspects of the "work" (the problematic cases are not work that's why I use quotes there) that have to be illegal. But again, for the buyers. But all I see are people screaming when realities of this for women are pointed out. Also I wish there was not hostility about the realities for trafficked people or objections to criticism of what the MARKET does to a woman's body and autonomy.

[xxxild]

@AliceinHats I did notice some "screaming" over on rubbleofeempire's video where you claimed that the pros position was against human rights. As if our position on decrim was the cause of the harm. That was your position then when I read that comment awhile back. I've asked you to correct that accusation I wonder if you might restate that if you still believe it.

[AliceinHats]

Also when feminists talk of the current state of this work for women, there is a shit storm. But we are correct. And there is irony in how paternalistic the legal models are. There is a high fence and barbed wire around a legal Las Vegas brothel and they live like prisoners. If you are against that, then why was my video down rated? i just threw the ball over to pros, not many accusations there, I even put text on the screen indicating that you might not be for this model.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@AliceinHats i will get to all the messages later when i have some time, but i really wanted to point one thing out. I did not downrate your video nor do I know who did. Just want to point out that it could be completely unrelated to the content. ~a

[AliceinHats]

@YeOldeHeretic NO it's ok!! Great video. There's a lot to discuss.

[xxxild]

@AliceinHats This is one of my adored friends here so Im going to comment to you. Rad fems are not correct. Rad fems want to abolish prostitution; they contribute to the harm and have supported a model which admits it does not care about harm reduction. Had you been listening you would have had answers to your questions, booboo. It's been a full year. I'm glad at least now you have it all in one easy to find video. Right.

[alowlyapprentice]

If sex is a vice, well damn. We need to start taxing married couples for shagging.

I don't have much to add in the way of a comment other than I think co-operative models sound like a good idea. And... this video did help me solidify decrim/normalization in light of others like me that sign NDA's and Non-compete agreements all the time.

Excellent explanation. The links are great. Thanks.

[alowlyapprentice]

@alowlyapprentice I may explain what I figured out later once I determine the best and shortest way to present it.

[thecryptqueen]

Yep - pretty sure nothing else ever has to be said to Bewbew or any of her other feminot nitwit buddies.

Brilliant work, lovely! xoxoxooxoxoxox

[BoundlessEyes]

I wonder if you can clear something up for me? You reject full legalisation because the licensing etc. doesn't end up supporting sex workers, which I agree is my aim too. You say your aim to be allowed to exist as a human being. Partial decriminalisation achieves this in a legal sense. However, you reject par-decrim. because the police continue to prosecute clients and in some cases unfairly You also say however that your aim is to have sex work viewed as a legitimate profession...[cont.]

[BoundlessEyes]

@BoundlessEyes *unfairly treat SWs, my bad.

In which case you argue for full decriminalisation. The thing is, you've ended up creating a legitimate business which is free from the restraints which all other 'legal' businesses are subject to. Appropriate licenses, regulation, etc. is a reality of business. So surely the only way sex work can be a 'legitimate profession' is for it to be legalised?...which comes with the problems you've mentioned.

[xxxild]

@BoundlessEyes We've had that accusation early on. "You want your cake and you want to eat it too." Did you ever get a massage? A facial? Your nails done? This is why I wasted my time on the bodyworker model. And, I would ask you. Do you think sex work is something to compare to all other businesses. Really, now. With all the stigma on sex workers?

[BoundlessEyes]

@xxxild I didn't accuse anyone of anything. In fact, because when you unsubscribed you accused me of not listening to sex workers themselves, I've come to do that. I can't win with you, can I?

[xxxild]

@BoundlessEyes I appreciate you doing that listening. What I'm adding is that sex workers are often accused of not acknowledging the complaints that we are greedy and promote some kind of model where we get to have the benefits of earning income without conducting our work as a real business. In addition we're expected to handle all of the problems in and around it while legalization models create environments that reinforce the stigma. Like mickmle does in his video. (cont)

[xxxild]

@xxxild (2) from there it's very easy to point to people living under the stigma and mock them, pity them or turn in disgust. Mock their clients' attitudes, mock them holding the condom on, etc.

[FeministWhore]

@BoundlessEyes - Read the 'beyond decriminalization' link in the lowbar, it has all the technical municipal licensing infos - and then some - the thing is over 200 pages long.

[BoundlessEyes]

@FeministWhore Right, and all barriers to the workers themselves owning the companies, a good quality of life for SWs, red tape etc. I completely agree with you, this is undesirable. My question really though is how can sex work be considered 'a legitimate business' [yeoldeheretic] if it refuses to be recognised as legitimate, i.e. legal?

Also, the more a legal business puts workers at risk, the more it SHOULD be subject to regulations, in my opinion. Am I wrong?

[YeOldeHeretic]

@BoundlessEyes i think perhaps your a little confused with the terminology. When sex workers and sex worker rights activists speak about full decriminalization, we are seeking to have the same legal status as other small business etc..Unfortunately, the legalization model, as I've stated in this video and others, is not sex worker friendly. We however are seeking what NSW for example has, which is called decriminalization; please look into that. I’m not sure how else to address your question. ~a

[BoundlessEyes]

@YeOldeHeretic Ok, that makes more sense to me. Thanks for your help.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@BoundlessEyes Your welcome. ~a

[YeOldeHeretic]

@BoundlessEyes (Cont) (2)We are powerless, for exp., in Canada to report crimes against us for fear of being charged ourselves. Then those individuals get to continue to harm others. Just one example,there are many. Hope that answers the last part of the comment you made ~a

[YeOldeHeretic]

@BE "..the more a legal business puts workers at risk, the more it SHOULD be subject to regulations, in my opinion. Am I wrong?"

(1)Anytime “legalization vice style regulation” has been put into place, it has been shown to do more harm than good. Equally, when we are criminalized, forced underground, working in dangerous situations because of the law. This is not because of sex for money. What puts sex workers at risk is there is no consequences to those who seek to assault and rape us. cont

[FeministWhore]

@BoundlessEyes 1) The problem here is where you say 'legitimate, i.e. legal' < that is your 'i.e.' - and that 'i.e.' is denying, ignoring, dismissing, avoiding (whatever the fuck you wanna call it) what was actually said in this video. Where are you getting this bit 'it refuses to be recognised as legitimate" to begin with? I ask because that very word 'legitimate' was used in this video, in reference to what DECRIMINALIZATION will enable.

[FeministWhore]

@BoundlessEyes 2) DECRIM in conjunction with efforts to fight the stigma will hopefully result in sex workers, and the work they do, as being seen as LEGITIMATE. Of course, the response there is often 'do we really want to live in a society where *that sort of thing* is seen as legitimate?', quelle horreur. But really, what matters most is that I know you aren't really to be trusted if you refuse to actually listen, let alone tolerantly consider, what is being offered to you.

[FeministWhore]

@BoundlessEyes - And it's obvious you didn't even look at the pdf, because the 'municipal regulations' I was referring to were the decrim regulations, not the legalization regulations. It's all in there. Oh and by the way, my judgement that you are not to be trusted is mine, and mine alone, don't try blaming the hivemind for some mass rejection.

[BoundlessEyes]

@FeministWhore I have no idea why you perceive me to have come here to criticise rather than understand, which has been my genuine motivation. Secondly, I didn't read the pdf because I have four days until my final university exam and I simply don't have another 30 minutes following the video to spare currently. I thought that this is a political cause, and therefore my efforts to educate myself to your cause would be received in a friendly way. I haven't accused you of anything.

[FireWolfBrotherhood]

This is why I leave the finer points of the argument to ppl like you! I may know what I want, but you know how to get there :0)

[Divinity33372]

@FireWolfBrotherhood word to ya granmama's panties

[Divinity33372]

Awesome vid. Thank you for taking the time to make this. I look forward to any follow ups you do. I have plenty of popcorn. ((hugs da amyi))

[tattooskin72]

thanks for the in depth discussion on the difference between decrim and legalization. If you do choose to make follow up videos it would be greatly appreciated. I had always thought some sort of regulation would be good to help protect the sex worker, client and community... but you've really made me question that, especially considering how the government normally approaches what they or the general population consider "sins".

[YeOldeHeretic]

@tattooskin72 Thank you for listening. :) i will certainly do more videos on this topic. i'll touch more on this in another video but i think certain types of regulation can be good, however not based on sex work as being a vice, or morally bad in some way. The problem is changing peoples assumptions about sex work, the people in sex work, and coming at the regulations from a positive light, not a "containing and controlling" one, which only furthers to marginalize and harm us. :)

~a

[Divinity33372]

@1:27 pauses vid and runs to make popcorn nom nom nom nom

[FeministWhore]

Thank you for this. ♥ and then some.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@FeministWhore ♥ ~a

[KrissytheWorldWithin]

thanks for posting this aymi, very helpful, I was a bit confused on some of the finer parts if the decrim model.

[YeOldeHeretic]

@KrissytheWorldWithin *Hugs*

~aymi