He sure sounds like he knows what is he is talking about.who are you trying to convince? Yourself or your peers.Not all of us are traditional.I wasnt manipulated, I had an experience, but your not worth telling it about.Go ahead believe everything your saying.I can tell you this..We all will give an account to God, for the time we had in our bodies, and what we choose to with our bodies.That I can tell you.God gave us our life, we choose how to live it.Your obviously are way to smart for God
I became a Christian in my 20's. So that really knocks your theory stating that Christians are only Christians cause they where taught it when they where little kids. Secondly we are not condemned because our ancestors killed Jesus. We are condemned because of our own sin. We don't need other peoples sins we got more that enough of our own. And if you believe that a God exists. All the miracles described in the bible are nothing special. God being God can cause all those things to happen.
@AdstarAPAD Well congratulations on following something, whole-heartedly, without a shred of evidence to back it up. You may just be one of the most gullible people I know, if you decided to become a Christian when you were 20, without ever hearing about it before.
@gerrodallenI don't believe i was gullible; i was a cynical person. I looked upon the world as being lead by the corrupt. But getting back to the point. I believed because of the Message of the Bible in its entirety. The Message stands by itself, there to be assessed by anyone who will read it. The Message itself moved me to believe. It was the Message moving me to believe in God. Not belief in God moving me to believe the Message.
I am a Christian. Your question is very, very long. It's actually more like a statement than a question. In fact, you haven't really asked a question at all. All you've done is demonstrated your ignorance of a faith that you claim to understand. One day, in the words of C.S. Lewis, God may say to you "Thy will be done". And you will cease to benefit from everything of God's that you have taken for granted. Please do another video and ask a serious question. If you do, I promise to answer.
@555pontifex And I have most definitely posed a question. If you weren't able to pick it up the first go-around, maybe try watching it again. Also, I would ask that you, in some way, substantiate your claim that I've "demonstrated my ignorance of a faith..." Thanks.
Now this video is a bit old but I will still suggest some reading. :) Orthodoxy, which holds the Tradition of what the apostles learned us very different from what western Christians today hold as Christianity. Hell is something created by false Christians from West. Hell is not a specially created place, because then God would be sadistic without mercy. Hell is something experiential. I suggest to read about Orthodoxy since there is so much to Orthodxy then what fits in these comments. :)
now I'm grown up in a family that is so athiesties be fully integrated. and yet I came to faith. and yes, despite that knowledge! And that is hard to do but you have a good word as well by taking Gen1 stating that in six days madewerld .. a look how it happened .. it is closer to the story itself was everything I thought at first instancie .. and so I can go through ... Absolute nonsense so it's definitely not (google translate)
@Brotherinchrist1985 Its always the same. They get you at a vulnerable point in your life, sing, tell you nice stories then you get on the rolercoaster of hormones cunningly disguised as god. You then talk about "invisible hands" guiding you, and "personal relationships" none of which stand up to any critical thought. But it makes you happy. For now. You may die following the big lie or you may realise what is really going on and become truly happy. See "Science Saved My Soul" on YouTube.
How could the Bible predict the rise of a movement that would #1blaspheme the God of the Jews#2disregard womens rights#3kill believing they serve god#4behead people that refuse to submit#5changes times(calendar) and laws#6bows to an image??In the ORIGINAL text of the Book of Revelation,which was written in Greek the "mark of the Beast"which is translated in English as 666,ACTUALLY reads in Arabic "BISMALLAH"which means in the name of allah.Coincidences????"Don't remain ignorant,INVESTIGATE !!!
The thing about the Bible you should try to adress that cuts right to the heart of the True/False question,is prophecy.In most of the Bible there are passages that refer to "the last days"which is a period of time that occurs AFTER the Jews return to their land.I can't write about ALL of these prophecies,so I'll pick just the ones referring to the 8th Beast.The 8th Beast (Kingdom)is a return of the 7th kingdom that ruled the middle east and parts of Europe.Islam is the Antichrist Beast.
Let's just look at your desfription of Hell,for some unknown reason you're using the Quran's description INSTEAD of the Bibles.You can't mix apples and oranges.Iwas raised in a household of traditions,and eventually I did read the Bible AND believe it.
@Brotherinchrist1985 So you will stone your wife on her father's doorstep if she isn't a virgin on her wedding night? What about instantly killing anyone who tries to make you question your beliefs? Any of that? OR do you JUST follow the "nicer" verses that make you feel all warm inside, thereby virtually creating your own religion on it's own?
@gerrodallen "do you JUST follow the "nicer" verses that make you feel all warm inside"
Those "not nice" Old Testament laws were not permanent promulgations of God that nonetheless served a purpose in their particular time and place. New Testament teaches that Christ brought a new law (e.g. all the kosher laws were abolished).
"What about instantly killing anyone who tries to make you question your beliefs?"
We use your so-called "Christian calendar" for the very same reason theists like you use "godless" theories and principles in everyday life, BECAUSE IT WORKS! Plus it is an established way of keeping track of time and schedules. This does absolutely NOTHING to represent your case that god exists, I'm sorry. And as for hypocrisy... you've seemingly lost your mind.
@gerrodallen The problem is that YOU are setting up a straw man argument.Your whole description of Jesus'point or role was either made up by you or taken from another 3rd party.To understand the role of Jesus as it relates to redemption or judgement,you really have to get the true info from the Bible.It's a shame your premise was so dishonest,Iwas looking forward to an honest discussion.
@jimmmmybrady I'm pretty sure that the people who watched this video know that the Bible doesn't use the term "cosmic being, floating up in space" but other than that, what I said was true. And those are just the harmless parts. I could mention all the nastier things in the Bible to further my point if you'd like. Where's your argument?
if you are so hell-bent against Christianity and it's concepts then how came most of you're using Christian calendar which basically dates back to the birth of Jesus Christ. It sure must be fun to bash Christians because of your own insecurities, but your hypocrisy just tops it all.
So what's your defence about this? I hope that your answer will be more that invectives and so smart image macros.
@superpopewinz You know when I stub my toe I usually scream "GOD ALMIGHTY THAT FUCKING HURT!!!"
That does not mean I believe in God, it means my fucking toe hurt.
Equally, I don't say the year is 2011 because it's 2011 years since Jesus was born, I say it because that's the year that my country states it is and If i started using some other calendar system everyone I know and work with would be confused by my letters and Emails.
All I can say is bro. Life is messed up and I been on my own for a long time, and without my faith in the lord, I wouldnt still be alive. God saved me from so much, I choose to believe its something more than just a coincidence. He kept me sane when i couldnt bare no more. Im not mad at you for what u believe in, we have free will. But brother dont take this the wrong way but I pray, that ur heart looks past ur logic and ur able to feel that love of christ that brought me to him. Jesus loves
Religion is just an adult pacifier. It allows adults to not face reality, that we are a doomed creature. Accept that fact and life becomes 10x sweeter because you know your time is limited. Every breeze I feel, every bird song I hear, every beautiful girl I see is that much more precious to me because I know I will never be here, in that moment, in this moment, again.
I have a lot of christians friends, whom were raised in atheistic families. Believing has nothing to do with what you thinkj it has. This video is a fail.
@DZT23 You'd have to elaborate on your idea. How did they come to Christianity? How old were they? It would make just as much sense for them to start worshiping any other god for that matter. Etc... Thanks for watching.
@Mdodd09 Yep.. He really did. Bashed it nicely.. I congratulate him for it. And he is right in his reply to you.
What morals.. Can homosexual pedophile rapists preach morals? Can a church that has huge bank accounts and never thinks of feeding the poor in Africa talk about compassion? How about being thankful to the real gods the Sun, the Earth, the Water.. You know, the things that really gave you life, kept you fed and warm so you can live to your fullest potential..
Something else to consider is that children, when refusing to go to church or what their parent's religions teaches, are beat up to the point where they would change their minds and accept their parents' religion by force, for fear of punishments, etc. Is that free will to choose?.
I've seen a tv program where in certain countries as part of their religion boys & girls at an early age (like it or not) are circumcised. The girls get it worst: "They cut off the clitoris". Where's the freedom?.
I was raised around chrisitanity, but even when I was 12 years old, I looked back at it and said "Hell no. I'm not following that BS". Since then, though my family does, I don't personally celebrate Christmas, or Easter, or any things like that. My family even all goes to church on Christmas Eve, I stay home and bake things or watch TV or something.
fuck you howie47 i know gerrod. he is a good friend of mine and if your christian im sorry... guess where you go when you die. if your answer is 6 feet under then you just hit the nail on the head. howie... im only 22 but i can LOGICALLY sit here and say all religion is a load of horse shit that i dont wish apon anyone. gerrod great fuckind video and i hear you man. its people like howie47 here who are soo close minded and who dont want to hear the truth.
Such idiocy! "The creator of the universe, floating up in space" WTF? "symbolically cleanse" WTF? "the you yourself have not committed yet" WTF. Ahhhh, why are you hiding behind photo graphics? Are you totally IGNORANT of history??? LOL the age of reason!!! Sure you never sinned, what a lie! I love you. If I met you, I could kick your ass. Though I'm old. You would then follow me like a sheeple. LOL
Wow. The majority of your comment made little sense, and even less of a point. Try actually creating an argument instead of just (incorrectly) quoting me. Thanks.
Do you actually believe that some random big bang caused by absolutely nothing in a univers that is here for absolutely no reason made the the earth which you in it for absolutely no reason?
I was away for a few days and now I've came back and I've seen your PM. Again, time and space originated at the Big Bang, energy and matter does not need to be. We don't know how anything was like outside time, outside space. we don't know any law or any form of anything outside the properties of space and time. For all we know, cause and effect does not exist outside space time.
MY argument against your creation by sentinel being is simple. Once you entered a place where you cannot prove anything, cannot see anything, cannot know anything, any imaginary concepts, ideas, or delusions can be used to fill up the gap. We know nothing of anything in a place where time and space does not exist. We can't even begin to visualize it! There are countless more possibilities then just a divine creator.
I do not like to argue about things like 'before the big bang', 'origin of everything', etc because our knowledge, our minds are so limited by the way our universe functions we can only guess at what is outside the our known world. We know for a fact that time and space originated at the Big Bang and we know as a fact that our current universe expanded at the Big Bang. Anything before that will require guessing and speculation.
But as you can see, it is easy to come up with random untestable hypothesis regarding the origin of everything, and that's my point. the god hypothesis is but one in thousands and millions of other ideas regarding this subject. To eliminate all others in favor of the god hypothesis is to be conceited. But one similar is shared by all these hypothesis, you can't test them, you can't prove them, you can only make them.
Even if we accept an eternal creator as an origin, tons of questions raises up. Why did he create the world? Which god is he (there's a shit load of them throughout history and probably will in the future)? Why did he give us inaccurate information regarding the world in his scriptures? How did he create us? How does he exist? Etc, etc. And one final note, this line of thinking sounds more like a deist creator, and not a more theist one and I thought you are a Christian?
i like the video and you bring up some good points, but, just give up arguing with theists dude..you cant win..there is no way to disprove something invisible...
Well I'd like to think I'd recognize it for what it is..
Quaint stories of Creation and Intentionality penned by primitive peoples with little understanding of the Natural World or any concept of the Scientific Method in an attempt to explain important questions about Origins and Reality.. just like all Mythologies and Religions..
This was perfectly understandable 1500 years ago.. Today it's completely fucking retarded.
I don't think he was stating that slavery, racism, homophobia, or incest were traits only attributed to Christianity. Casper's argument was that Christianity and that belief were around to create morality... and where would that be without Christianity? But, Christianity isn't NEEDED for morality.
And you mentioned "moral values"?! Pshh! If bigotry, homophobia, racism, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery and incest are your ideas of moral values then I suppose you have a point... lol.
And I'd like to believe that there ARE pots of gold at the end of every rainbow, and that if you wish at a wishing well , your wish will come true. But we live in REALITY! What's sad is that you wouldn't have any hope if you knew that you weren't gonna be rewarded with eternal life in heaven. Atheists don't need to seek reward or fear punishment to contribute to society and have hope for advancing humanity. It's religion that holds back humanity, my friend. NOT ATHEISM.
Should I repeat the request for your source on this grand and unsubstantiated proclamation you have offered or is this rather "small" sample and your personal history how you came to falsely claim as fact that...
Well it's a fact that many atheists who were brought up atheists DO, in fact, come to Christianity later
I realize that this is YT and that truth and honesty often get lost in the in the zeal to win. I won't hold my breath waiting for your sources. Waiting for the nonexistent.
The debate present on this thread is pretty entertaining...I am an individual that doesn't know whether or not to continue to believe in god. I was raised in a very religious househould, and it influenced my Mother's entire lifestyle (including several decisions that I don't agree with)...I have believed in god, and I don't claim atheism just yet, but I will say this much: I find no proof of god's existence, and I'm hard pressed to find any solid evidence. Is there any CasperTheMeanieGhost?
No, actually, it wouldn't. That they do exist is evident. How would you prove to me as to when they began to exist? Or when they were created... since that is the argument here... "And then there was man..."
It is FACTUALLY the case that time,space,matter and energy literally originated at the singularity (i can PM u with the goodies if u want me to).
Now,the fact that u say u would not count it as evidence if i literally showed u that time,space,matter and energy had an origin,honestly makes me question whether u are actually even open to evidence.
I am not debating their existence. I am merely stating that you cannot prove that they were either already in existence before man, or created shortly before the existence of man...There is LITERALLY no scientific evidence for the existence of god. There is a book that was written by a collection of individuals that were "anointed" by a so-called "higher being" that is supposed to point to that existence, but it is a series of books, written by a series of MEN. Not Proof.
I'm not telling you that everything came from nothing. I also haven't claimed atheism as my belief. I am merely saying that it cannot be proven scientifically that god exists.
Have we tested the theory that you PM'd me? The "facts"? Do we have a little rocketman out there with his timex, testing that hypothesis? It is NOT proven. Thus is is NOT fact.
It is called a "belief"... god is alive ONLY in the faith that some people possess. The concept of god is not a proven fact.
IT IS PROVEN that time,space,matter and energy FACTUALLY began to exist.that evidence i gave u was from atheist scientists! most atheists tend to surgar coat that they have to believe in self creation but can u blame them? i mean,how do u tell someone with a str8 face that everything came from nothing?
How can you tell someone with a "str8" face that everything came from an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that knows everything about everything and he loves us all but designed a place called hell for us to go if we're bad?! Get fuckin' real!
Which is more reasonable? EVERYTHING came from NOTHING or everything came from a self existent being??? (this shouldn`t be a tough question even for u)
If we ask 'where we came from?' and answered with 'a greater being came created us', then we must also ask 'where did the greater being came from?' If the question is dodged with the response 'he was always there', then we must also ask 'why can't the universe in which we live in lasts eternal in one form or another'. Your proposition of a greater being fails once you realize this problem, god created us, someone created god, etc, etc, it goes down into infinite regression which is impossible.
My stance on the beginning of the world is 'don't know'. We have no facilities to further 'guess' at this.
Now I would in turn ask you, why can't the universe be eternal in one form or another? Sure the current universe we live in originated from the Big Bang. But what was the universe like before that? Surely it's plausible to say that something existed before that or that the universe creates and destroys in a cycle. Big Bang and the Big Crunch so to speak.
"god cannot exist,because that wilkl go into infinite regression"
No,a cause of the universe is NECESSARILY timeless.any timeless entity avoids infinite regression.the universe IS NOT a timeless entity and cannot avoid infinite regression.
Sigh* Time is limited to what is in our current universe. If you are arguing that everything must have a cause, then you also need to look at the cause of your god. If you say god is 'timeless' (I use this term loosely) then the universe can also be timeless in the sense that it was there before the Big Bang in one form or another.
NO! ... everything that BEGAN to exist has a cause.something that NECESSARILY never began to exist (such as a cause of this universe) doesn`t require a cause.
YES, so why can't the universe's cause be some sort of unknown medium in which the universe is held? Why do you push it to a god? And why do you attribute god 'never began to exist'? Surely if you do so, then you can as well attributed to my proposition that a universe or a medium containing it has always existed in some form or another.
A cause of the universe would necessarily have been in an ETERNAL STATE.how could something that was in an ETERNAL STATE change from that state (apart from a volitional act)?
Well the eternal state can be set to allow change. Say we have an plane of molecules bouncing around at each other eternally, if they hit, something happens( this is hypothetical).
And I can fire that question right back at your god. Your god sat there for eternity, all peaceful and whatnot, but then suddenly decided to create a universe, why is this so? Surely he knew that Adam and Eve was going to sin, he knew that mankind would become as corrupted as we are now, why would he make this?
No,then it wouldn`t be a timeless eternal state anymore WHICH IT NECESSARILY WAS.
A volitional being actually makes sense of this because a volitional being has the power to create change.a timeless eternal state can ONLY be a timeless eternal state.
Another you attribute to god can be attributed to something else, so why does it have to be god, why do you not attributed to something else? Just as an god can be made up to fit anything, mediums and propositions can be made for the same purposes, there is no reason to pin anything on a god if your mind cannot think of another reason.
U bare witness that it is God.u will admit that the cause of the universe was timeless,non-spatial,immaterial,immensely powerful and had the causal ability (VOLITION) to change from a timeless eternal state.furthermore,the cause produced an intricate symbiotic universe.
U can call that cause whatever u like but it doesn`t take a genius to see that this fits perfectly with the concept of God.
IF i gave u evidence of a volitional source to explain a timeless eternal state changing from that timeless eternal state then this objection would simply be an argument from ignorance on ur part.
I don`t deny that but God could have ULTIMATELY had meaningful reasons for allowing the fall.for example,the power of good over evil could never have been demonstrated without it or the devastating effects of sin we see could never have been demonstrated without it.
This is the problem of your twisted religion. Your god allows love, but tortures people, kills them, murders, genocides, homicides, etc. Everything was fine in Eden, why did he make Satan if he knows the outcome? And even after that, why drown everything except a pair of every animal (and even that causes conplications),
There is no logical reasoning considering the ultimate outcome will be the vast majority of the population burning in hell for eternity!! How/why is that something a loving creator would do?!
Obviously,it is not "necessary" to demonstrate those things but they serve a meaningful purpose (ultimately).for example,do u deny that there is a meaningful purpose in demonstrating the power of moral good over moral evil?
Also,just because God foreknew that people would end up in a state of hell doesn`t negate that they will end up there on their own volition.
This is my point! I really love putting myself in the Christian's shoes. IT'S INSANE to follow the logic of the Bible and act like it's "divinely appointed" IT'S BULLSHIT!
Oh and one more thing, the two propositions, that everything came from nothing and that everything came from a self existent being are both unreasonable. I cannot picture nothing becoming something and I doubt anyone here can. I also cannot see how a greater being created us without asking where that greater being came as well. And as I have demonstrated, that leads into an infinite regression.
If an eternal universe is disproven (it is) then we are left with an ABSOLUTE dichotomy.either everything came from nothing or everything came from a self existent source.
Btw,something can only be a false dichotomy if one actually presents an alternative.
Yes they are the only propositions on the table, and both of them are unreasonable. And eternal universe is possible as long as the universe can exist in another form before the Big Bang. As a note, I do not belief in such but I'm just saying that it's possible and so does many other propositions such as the multi-universe and that the two propostions are both unlikely.
Hm alright, but that's besides the point. What allows your god to be 'timeless' when you not allow anything else to be? The universe can well be there before the Big Bang in one form or another or exist in another medium altogether that we know nothing about. What grants your god this timeless status? I would rightly question his existence if he ever existed. I'm also waiting for that PM.
By virtue of the fact of what it means to cause time,space,matter and energy into existence.if the cause of time is not timeless then time wouldn`t have an origin WHICH IT DOES.
You know that time as we know it only exist in our universe right? Anything outside it, say whatever was in the realm of the Big Bang, can then be considered timeless. I also thought that you meant timeless as in no chronological beginning (that's the sense I'm using it in anyways). As I said, a universe existing in a certain form or a medium for it to exist can be eternal.
New discoveries have been made about another universe whose collapse appears to have given birth to the one we live in today.
"My paper introduces a new mathematical model that we can use to derive new details about the properties of a quantum state as it travels through the Big Bounce, which replaces the classical idea of a Big Bang as the beginning of our universe," said Martin Bojowald, assistant professor of physics at Penn State.
I already dealt with this ... IF i provide evidence of a voltional source changing from a timeless eternal state then arguing that volition (or consciousness) cannot exist apart from time would be an argument from ignorance on ur part.
Time and space as we know it in our universe came to existence during the Big Bang. The origins of matter and energy is unknown. The Big Bang was a massive overheated mass of matter and energy, and that's the furthest back in time we know. What happened before the Big Bang, we do not know.
The second problem is you is that you assume atheist = belief that everything came from nothing, that's not true and no one here is saying that everything came from nothing.
Do u deny that time,space,matter and energy literally originated at the singularity?
I never said atheism=belief in self creation.i`m simply appealing to the evidence that time,space,matter and energy FACTUALLY began to exist.i will say this ... atheism=the BELIEF in a non-contingent universe.
As I said, time and space did originate at the Big Bang, your so called singularity. Mass and energy is a different story, they made up the Big Bang and could have existed beforehand.
Atheism is the belief that there is no divine being, no god(s). It is not that belief in a non-contingent universe, although it can lead to such a belief. For example, one can say that the universe is caused maturely, although the details are left out, just like the genesis story.
So, it is proven that time, space, matter, and energy factually began to exist. Is it proven that they were CREATED? When did they begin to exist? What is this in the scheme of you trying to prove with your repetitive "logic" that god exists? You're deviating from that topic with statements that fail to support your argument. I'm not saying specifically what I believe, I'm only saying that there is NOTHING to prove, with an absolute certainty, that god exists.
Like I stated before: I'm not presenting my beliefs, mainly because I'm still figuring that out...
You are dead set on the fact that everything was created... yet you fail to support your argument. State that it's just your opinion, and there you go... everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Yet here you are, trying to prove your point... for what? Save your breath, you have nothing solid backing your arguments.
"you are dead set on the fact that everything was created"
Of course! it is utterly irrational to believe nothing created everything.nothing doesn`t have any attributes! it has no existence! it has to exist in order to do anything at all lol.
It is utterly irrational to believe nothing created everything? On that note, isn't it irrational to believe that something or someone was just there? "Hey, I'm bored, for shits and giggles let me create some mankind in my image and see how they fare..." That makes more sense to you? Why don't you believe that the giant sea turtle climbed out of the ocean with the earth on it's back? That has just as much proof as god existing.
Where do you come up with this stuff? I'm not telling you to read between the lines in my comments... What is there is what I mean. Get over your self-glorified redundant babble and move on. I'm finished with this discussion... I don't feel the need to state my point more times than I have.
I asked u to define "nature" ... what`s wrong? is it starting to dawn on u that any cause that is void of time,space,matter and energy is BY DEFINITION supernatural?
Hey,u could always appeal to an eternal univer err err ... oops,i already disproved that one.sorry.
Hahaha, *shakes head*... there you go again Casper, reading between my lines. It is merely as I stated. I'm done, because it's like arguing with a 5 year old... Muah to you for continually trying.
Nobody is arguing that.we don`t have "absolute certainty" about anything at all.that is the nature of being limited beings.this doesn`t mean we can`t come to reasonable conclusions about things.there is no knowledge of which we have that doesn`t have a measure faith ... u can`t name me one thing that doesn`t involve a measure of faith.
Ummm. What about: "humans breath air"? How much faith does that involve? Or maybe, "I am alive" is that stepping out on a limb of faith. Faith means, belief in something without evidence! Christ.....
u can`t name me one thing that doesn`t involve a measure of faith.
I know for a fact that I exist. It is an objective truth that can be confirmed by myself ( I have a physical presence that displaces water), as well as by others.
None of this requires faith, I am as you are an objective truth that does not exist as just a subjective idea.
Sorry to jump in but your request for something that does not require faith was just to compelling.
No shit! But the Christian Movement isn't talking about metaphysics or God from a philosophical standpoint, it's preaching it as LITERAL TRUTH. As in IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. That's what I have a problem with. I don't care if you believe a magical, purple seahorse follows you around all day and feeds you little pieces of the rainbow. Believe what you will, but when you start saying it's TRULY and PHYSICALLY happening, then you need to SCIENTIFICALLY back it up. Christianity FAILS to do so!
No shit! But the Christian Movement isn't talking about metaphysics or God from a philosophical standpoint, it's preaching it as LITERAL TRUTH. As in IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. That's what I have a problem with. I don't care if you believe a magical, purple seahorse follows you around all day and feeds you little pieces of the rainbow. Believe what you will, but when you start saying it's TRULY and PHYSICALLY happening, then you need to SCIENTIFICALLY back it up. Christianity FAILS to do so!
Then you're using religion as a philosophical ideology, rather than actually believing it as physical fact. Common era scientists discredit and refute more and more "philosophers" old, outdated ideas EVERY SINGLE DAY! Are you actually arguing that there is a supreme being? Cause you seem to be hung up on semantics, rather than TRUTH!
Wrong again, we are not speaking of the "historical vast majority", that's where the entire fairytale of God got started in the first place.
I am speaking of COMMON ERA SCIENTISTS! 93% of scientists in the national academy of sciences are atheist. That's what I would call the "vast majority". Nice try though...
The national academy of science is basically an atheist clubhouse.if we look at the stats for all professional scientists,HALF believe in a personal God.guess how many people around the globe believe in a personal God? ... HALF!
So the percentage of scientists who believe in a personal God is the same as the common man (globally speaking).
And I could say my fuckin cat is my "personal god", but we are talking about these scientists believing in a omnipotent, omnipresent, SUPREME CREATOR. The judeo-christian god. Guaranteed that's not what they mean, and I guarantee you know that as well but you're choosing not to understand that for the sake of your argument.
Actually,to be more specific ... HALF of ALL scientists believe in a "PERSONAL" God who ANSWERS PRAYER! this is according to the 1997 survey of scientists (i bet that really pisses u off).
It was a Gallop 1997 poll where the survey specifically asked "do u believe in a personal God who answers prayer?" to which 40% responded yes and 45% responded no.
Also,according to a nov,24 2009 LA times article by david Masci,a pew research center poll showed that the MAJORITY of scientists (51%) believed in a God while only 41% said they did not.
You will notice that you have mis-stated the %'s The no's were 55%. Of the 40% they did not adhere to the literal interpretation of the bible. Plus some of these "scientist" were in fields such as computer science, business administration and physiology. Not what one would call the hard natural sciences.
Why is it that truth is so hard to obtain from those who live behind the veil of "belief". The last is rhetorical, no need to reply.
No,the "no`s" were 45%.the rest were "i don`t know".u are lumping the "i don`t know" with the "no`s".also,who said anything about literal interpretation of the bible? i was pointing out that half of scientists believe in a personal God.that`s it.
That pew research poll i mentioned (from 2009) actually shows the MAJORITY of scientists (51%) believe in a God while 41% say they don`t believe in a God (with the rest unsure).
Why do you continue to use numbers without a source link? The contrary numbers I offered have a source link. I prefer facts and sources rather than reaching back and pulling something out of...well, you get the picture.
Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process. 55% of scientist Gallup (not Gallop) poll 1997. My source made no mention of the "i don`t know" group
I will take your non reply and your lack of a source for the Gallup poll that you misrepresented to be evidence that you either have no source for your data or that your god told you to "fight the good fight" with whatever disinformation you could spread. This must be one of those mysterious ways that are often mentioned by your side.
At this point I will move on to a more honest and rational thread.
Well it's a fact that many atheists who were brought up atheists DO, in fact, come to Christianity later in life
If it is an objective fact and not a subjective than you should have no problem showing your sources. Also a philosopher is not necessarily a logistican (an expert in logic) if they are and insist on passing off the subjective for an objective truth then they are either lying or are denying the objective truth. Name a few who believe in God and deny the objective truth.
And there are many rapists that are Christian as well. Do you hear me saying that if you're a rapist you're a Christian? No, you don't! The reason is because MOST Christians aren't rapists but there are some. Now STATISTICALLY speaking MOST as in THE MAJORITY of "respected" scientists are NOT religious. But as your poor argument pointed out, there are SOME religious scientists. But we are looking at the majority for understanding and debate in this argument. That's what counts!
There are many Muslim and Jewish Profs at these institutions. Does that make their equally irrational religions right?
All three beliefs are mutually exclusive, so logically at least two are wrong. I contend that all three are wrong because they all share the same base irrationality.
Would you like to watch some of their debates? They are pathetic.
One of my questions to Christians is if God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loving...why the fuck did he bother to create the universe in the first place? He would have known that the vast majority of people would burn in hell because of his absurdly, petty, salvation system.
Another good one is, if God created everything, and evil exists, than evil is intrinsically a part of God's nature [he is supposedly all good].
To quote you: "This is ignorant fucking bullshit!"
Thanks, it's amazing how Christians will come up with the most INSANE excuses to defend "God's plan". They have to keep coming up with cop-outs in order to stay in the debate. My favorites are : "God works in mysterious ways", and "He's just testing our faith". LMFAO! Check out my other video, "Jesus, Loving and Attentive" for more on this subject. Thanks again, love the comments.
@Think4Yourselves This is my main point to try to get a theists brain to function..Why did God create all the 'hell bound' knowing before hand their destiny? The ALL LOVING MERCIFUL thing would be to spare the 'evil ones' by not creating them to begin with. Also.. Perfection cannot beget imperfection..God being PERFECT could not have created this IMPERFECT world.Hence God is illogical.
Once again, the video is titled "My Question to all Christians" this means I'm asking them directly. If you fall into this category, then I want Christians to ask themselves this question. The majority of intelligent people will understand my question and see my point. If you wouldn't feel compelled to believe something as an adult, that tends to question the accuracy of the topic at hand. Do you get it?
This video is complete bullshit.ur basically saying that christians only hold to their beliefs because they were fed those beliefs at a young age.what about all those who became christians later on in life?
That's not what I'm saying. And I guarantee if you watched it again and actually listened, you'd understand that I'm saying they were subjected to it at an early age/were raised around it/at least knew about it. Therefore it wasn't as big a shock when these people you speak of may have converted to Christianity. Someone who lived a rich and wholesome life before religion wouldn't accept this nonsense story today.
Your argument is TERRIBLE! Anyone could say ANYTHING about someone subscribing to a religion in their adult life. I'd like you to actually back up what you are claiming AND show me how it REFUTES my claim. You're acting like you don't see my point. But that's ok, thanks for your comments. ;)
What are u talking about? LOL ... u really need me to spell out how ridiculous ur argument is?
U said people convert because "they were subjected to it at an early age/were raised around it".do i really need to show u how FACTUALLY wrong that is?
"you`re acting like you don`t see my point"
I`m "acting"? ... it`s not my fault u can`t see how flawed ur argument is.
Are you kidding me? You made absolutely NO POINT in your last post. If you wanna have a logical debate you'll have to bring some sort of argument to the table.
He sure sounds like he knows what is he is talking about.who are you trying to convince? Yourself or your peers.Not all of us are traditional.I wasnt manipulated, I had an experience, but your not worth telling it about.Go ahead believe everything your saying.I can tell you this..We all will give an account to God, for the time we had in our bodies, and what we choose to with our bodies.That I can tell you.God gave us our life, we choose how to live it.Your obviously are way to smart for God
MrTrav03 2 weeks ago
I became a Christian in my 20's. So that really knocks your theory stating that Christians are only Christians cause they where taught it when they where little kids. Secondly we are not condemned because our ancestors killed Jesus. We are condemned because of our own sin. We don't need other peoples sins we got more that enough of our own. And if you believe that a God exists. All the miracles described in the bible are nothing special. God being God can cause all those things to happen.
AdstarAPAD 4 months ago
@AdstarAPAD Well congratulations on following something, whole-heartedly, without a shred of evidence to back it up. You may just be one of the most gullible people I know, if you decided to become a Christian when you were 20, without ever hearing about it before.
gerrodallen 4 months ago
@gerrodallenI don't believe i was gullible; i was a cynical person. I looked upon the world as being lead by the corrupt. But getting back to the point. I believed because of the Message of the Bible in its entirety. The Message stands by itself, there to be assessed by anyone who will read it. The Message itself moved me to believe. It was the Message moving me to believe in God. Not belief in God moving me to believe the Message.
AdstarAPAD 4 months ago
I am a Christian. Your question is very, very long. It's actually more like a statement than a question. In fact, you haven't really asked a question at all. All you've done is demonstrated your ignorance of a faith that you claim to understand. One day, in the words of C.S. Lewis, God may say to you "Thy will be done". And you will cease to benefit from everything of God's that you have taken for granted. Please do another video and ask a serious question. If you do, I promise to answer.
555pontifex 5 months ago
@555pontifex Well, then that will be my proudest mistake.
gerrodallen 5 months ago
@555pontifex And I have most definitely posed a question. If you weren't able to pick it up the first go-around, maybe try watching it again. Also, I would ask that you, in some way, substantiate your claim that I've "demonstrated my ignorance of a faith..." Thanks.
gerrodallen 5 months ago
gerrod allen....the shiney rainbow colored athiest guru....fag! btw its evan lol
KrYPTiiKVeNoM 6 months ago
@KrYPTiiKVeNoM Lmao.
gerrodallen 6 months ago
@CuteLittleAaliyah
so what
mcnaugam 6 months ago
Christianity is a scam :D
Islam is a faraway joke,, but of course its a scam as well.
Thumbs Up !
gatito666o 7 months ago
@gatito666o Couldn't agree more! Thanks for watching!
gerrodallen 7 months ago
Now this video is a bit old but I will still suggest some reading. :) Orthodoxy, which holds the Tradition of what the apostles learned us very different from what western Christians today hold as Christianity. Hell is something created by false Christians from West. Hell is not a specially created place, because then God would be sadistic without mercy. Hell is something experiential. I suggest to read about Orthodoxy since there is so much to Orthodxy then what fits in these comments. :)
Zrakivoda 7 months ago
I like the question posed in the vid, but I have a question for you:
Why the fuck are you in a different dimension?
donchakayaripon 7 months ago
now I'm grown up in a family that is so athiesties be fully integrated. and yet I came to faith. and yes, despite that knowledge! And that is hard to do but you have a good word as well by taking Gen1 stating that in six days madewerld .. a look how it happened .. it is closer to the story itself was everything I thought at first instancie .. and so I can go through ... Absolute nonsense so it's definitely not (google translate)
oscarkuip 7 months ago
@Brotherinchrist1985 Its always the same. They get you at a vulnerable point in your life, sing, tell you nice stories then you get on the rolercoaster of hormones cunningly disguised as god. You then talk about "invisible hands" guiding you, and "personal relationships" none of which stand up to any critical thought. But it makes you happy. For now. You may die following the big lie or you may realise what is really going on and become truly happy. See "Science Saved My Soul" on YouTube.
NoFaithNoPain 7 months ago
@NoFaithNoPain Well if it makes him happy I don't see the problem.
It's when they start trying to influence government policies that I get pissed off.
williamthebrit 7 months ago
How could the Bible predict the rise of a movement that would #1blaspheme the God of the Jews#2disregard womens rights#3kill believing they serve god#4behead people that refuse to submit#5changes times(calendar) and laws#6bows to an image??In the ORIGINAL text of the Book of Revelation,which was written in Greek the "mark of the Beast"which is translated in English as 666,ACTUALLY reads in Arabic "BISMALLAH"which means in the name of allah.Coincidences????"Don't remain ignorant,INVESTIGATE !!!
jimmmmybrady 8 months ago
The thing about the Bible you should try to adress that cuts right to the heart of the True/False question,is prophecy.In most of the Bible there are passages that refer to "the last days"which is a period of time that occurs AFTER the Jews return to their land.I can't write about ALL of these prophecies,so I'll pick just the ones referring to the 8th Beast.The 8th Beast (Kingdom)is a return of the 7th kingdom that ruled the middle east and parts of Europe.Islam is the Antichrist Beast.
jimmmmybrady 8 months ago
Let's just look at your desfription of Hell,for some unknown reason you're using the Quran's description INSTEAD of the Bibles.You can't mix apples and oranges.Iwas raised in a household of traditions,and eventually I did read the Bible AND believe it.
jimmmmybrady 8 months ago
the roman calendar is pre christian, the holidays are roman and germanic pagan in origin.
ThomasRowsell 8 months ago
@Brotherinchrist1985 So you will stone your wife on her father's doorstep if she isn't a virgin on her wedding night? What about instantly killing anyone who tries to make you question your beliefs? Any of that? OR do you JUST follow the "nicer" verses that make you feel all warm inside, thereby virtually creating your own religion on it's own?
gerrodallen 8 months ago 7
@gerrodallen "do you JUST follow the "nicer" verses that make you feel all warm inside"
Those "not nice" Old Testament laws were not permanent promulgations of God that nonetheless served a purpose in their particular time and place. New Testament teaches that Christ brought a new law (e.g. all the kosher laws were abolished).
"What about instantly killing anyone who tries to make you question your beliefs?"
What? Where does this come from?
Krshwunk 8 months ago
@gerrodallen I'd like to get stoned with my wife on her father's doorstep on our wedding night.
It'd really piss the old bastard off.
williamthebrit 8 months ago
@williamthebrit Lmao.
gerrodallen 8 months ago
We use your so-called "Christian calendar" for the very same reason theists like you use "godless" theories and principles in everyday life, BECAUSE IT WORKS! Plus it is an established way of keeping track of time and schedules. This does absolutely NOTHING to represent your case that god exists, I'm sorry. And as for hypocrisy... you've seemingly lost your mind.
gerrodallen 8 months ago 6
@gerrodallen The problem is that YOU are setting up a straw man argument.Your whole description of Jesus'point or role was either made up by you or taken from another 3rd party.To understand the role of Jesus as it relates to redemption or judgement,you really have to get the true info from the Bible.It's a shame your premise was so dishonest,Iwas looking forward to an honest discussion.
jimmmmybrady 8 months ago
@jimmmmybrady I'm pretty sure that the people who watched this video know that the Bible doesn't use the term "cosmic being, floating up in space" but other than that, what I said was true. And those are just the harmless parts. I could mention all the nastier things in the Bible to further my point if you'd like. Where's your argument?
gerrodallen 8 months ago
Hey atheists,
if you are so hell-bent against Christianity and it's concepts then how came most of you're using Christian calendar which basically dates back to the birth of Jesus Christ. It sure must be fun to bash Christians because of your own insecurities, but your hypocrisy just tops it all.
So what's your defence about this? I hope that your answer will be more that invectives and so smart image macros.
Christianity - 1
Atheism - 0
superpopewinz 8 months ago
@superpopewinz See above comment.
gerrodallen 8 months ago
@superpopewinz You know when I stub my toe I usually scream "GOD ALMIGHTY THAT FUCKING HURT!!!"
That does not mean I believe in God, it means my fucking toe hurt.
Equally, I don't say the year is 2011 because it's 2011 years since Jesus was born, I say it because that's the year that my country states it is and If i started using some other calendar system everyone I know and work with would be confused by my letters and Emails.
williamthebrit 8 months ago
10 people are completely brainwashed, and in need of medication for their illness!
TheF86Sabre 8 months ago
It would answer the question I would have about where the first living organism came from.
wsmith1213 8 months ago
you, and so do I bro. I hope the best for ya man..
LostKause615 8 months ago
All I can say is bro. Life is messed up and I been on my own for a long time, and without my faith in the lord, I wouldnt still be alive. God saved me from so much, I choose to believe its something more than just a coincidence. He kept me sane when i couldnt bare no more. Im not mad at you for what u believe in, we have free will. But brother dont take this the wrong way but I pray, that ur heart looks past ur logic and ur able to feel that love of christ that brought me to him. Jesus loves
LostKause615 8 months ago
Religion is just an adult pacifier. It allows adults to not face reality, that we are a doomed creature. Accept that fact and life becomes 10x sweeter because you know your time is limited. Every breeze I feel, every bird song I hear, every beautiful girl I see is that much more precious to me because I know I will never be here, in that moment, in this moment, again.
Judicial78 8 months ago 2
@Brotherinchrist1985 And you LITERALLY believe all the tenets associated with Christianity?
gerrodallen 8 months ago
I have a lot of christians friends, whom were raised in atheistic families. Believing has nothing to do with what you thinkj it has. This video is a fail.
DZT23 8 months ago
@DZT23 You'd have to elaborate on your idea. How did they come to Christianity? How old were they? It would make just as much sense for them to start worshiping any other god for that matter. Etc... Thanks for watching.
gerrodallen 8 months ago
@Mdodd09 Yep.. He really did. Bashed it nicely.. I congratulate him for it. And he is right in his reply to you.
What morals.. Can homosexual pedophile rapists preach morals? Can a church that has huge bank accounts and never thinks of feeding the poor in Africa talk about compassion? How about being thankful to the real gods the Sun, the Earth, the Water.. You know, the things that really gave you life, kept you fed and warm so you can live to your fullest potential..
MrVlada011 8 months ago
Something else to consider is that children, when refusing to go to church or what their parent's religions teaches, are beat up to the point where they would change their minds and accept their parents' religion by force, for fear of punishments, etc. Is that free will to choose?.
I've seen a tv program where in certain countries as part of their religion boys & girls at an early age (like it or not) are circumcised. The girls get it worst: "They cut off the clitoris". Where's the freedom?.
argent2020 10 months ago
I was raised around chrisitanity, but even when I was 12 years old, I looked back at it and said "Hell no. I'm not following that BS". Since then, though my family does, I don't personally celebrate Christmas, or Easter, or any things like that. My family even all goes to church on Christmas Eve, I stay home and bake things or watch TV or something.
Your argument /valid
HDLuff4Eva 1 year ago
fuck you howie47 i know gerrod. he is a good friend of mine and if your christian im sorry... guess where you go when you die. if your answer is 6 feet under then you just hit the nail on the head. howie... im only 22 but i can LOGICALLY sit here and say all religion is a load of horse shit that i dont wish apon anyone. gerrod great fuckind video and i hear you man. its people like howie47 here who are soo close minded and who dont want to hear the truth.
meagles128617 1 year ago
hell yes, I follow you 100% man
petituseek 1 year ago
hell yes, I follow you 100% man
petituseek 1 year ago
Such idiocy! "The creator of the universe, floating up in space" WTF? "symbolically cleanse" WTF? "the you yourself have not committed yet" WTF. Ahhhh, why are you hiding behind photo graphics? Are you totally IGNORANT of history??? LOL the age of reason!!! Sure you never sinned, what a lie! I love you. If I met you, I could kick your ass. Though I'm old. You would then follow me like a sheeple. LOL
Howie47 2 years ago
Wow. The majority of your comment made little sense, and even less of a point. Try actually creating an argument instead of just (incorrectly) quoting me. Thanks.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@Howie47
wow...look at his strength training video and think again about your comment about kicking his ass you idiot
petituseek 1 year ago
@petituseek "kicking someones ass" does not necessarily mean they would or could besides for all you know that could be a mma fighter
ikaninjau2 1 year ago
There is a god, his name is Gerrod Allen
moj4do 2 years ago
Yes I would.
Now I have a question for you.
Do you actually believe that some random big bang caused by absolutely nothing in a univers that is here for absolutely no reason made the the earth which you in it for absolutely no reason?
IOnlySay1Word 2 years ago
woop woop
mishgin 2 years ago
This is Great!
infirationStudios 2 years ago
@Casper
I was away for a few days and now I've came back and I've seen your PM. Again, time and space originated at the Big Bang, energy and matter does not need to be. We don't know how anything was like outside time, outside space. we don't know any law or any form of anything outside the properties of space and time. For all we know, cause and effect does not exist outside space time.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
MY argument against your creation by sentinel being is simple. Once you entered a place where you cannot prove anything, cannot see anything, cannot know anything, any imaginary concepts, ideas, or delusions can be used to fill up the gap. We know nothing of anything in a place where time and space does not exist. We can't even begin to visualize it! There are countless more possibilities then just a divine creator.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
I do not like to argue about things like 'before the big bang', 'origin of everything', etc because our knowledge, our minds are so limited by the way our universe functions we can only guess at what is outside the our known world. We know for a fact that time and space originated at the Big Bang and we know as a fact that our current universe expanded at the Big Bang. Anything before that will require guessing and speculation.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
But as you can see, it is easy to come up with random untestable hypothesis regarding the origin of everything, and that's my point. the god hypothesis is but one in thousands and millions of other ideas regarding this subject. To eliminate all others in favor of the god hypothesis is to be conceited. But one similar is shared by all these hypothesis, you can't test them, you can't prove them, you can only make them.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
Even if we accept an eternal creator as an origin, tons of questions raises up. Why did he create the world? Which god is he (there's a shit load of them throughout history and probably will in the future)? Why did he give us inaccurate information regarding the world in his scriptures? How did he create us? How does he exist? Etc, etc. And one final note, this line of thinking sounds more like a deist creator, and not a more theist one and I thought you are a Christian?
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
Lol, That's it! I knew something was funny... lol.
Go check out "Jesus, loving and attentive?". I think you'll like it. Rate it.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
i like the video and you bring up some good points, but, just give up arguing with theists dude..you cant win..there is no way to disprove something invisible...
stevewr23 2 years ago
Well I'd like to think I'd recognize it for what it is..
Quaint stories of Creation and Intentionality penned by primitive peoples with little understanding of the Natural World or any concept of the Scientific Method in an attempt to explain important questions about Origins and Reality.. just like all Mythologies and Religions..
This was perfectly understandable 1500 years ago.. Today it's completely fucking retarded.
SofaKingLoaded 2 years ago
@Mdodd09
I don't think he was stating that slavery, racism, homophobia, or incest were traits only attributed to Christianity. Casper's argument was that Christianity and that belief were around to create morality... and where would that be without Christianity? But, Christianity isn't NEEDED for morality.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@Mdodd09:
Revision to my previous comment... it was actually YOU stating that reason for Christianity...
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
Go watch this! watch?v=7fT0OgysujA
gerrodallen 2 years ago
And you mentioned "moral values"?! Pshh! If bigotry, homophobia, racism, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery and incest are your ideas of moral values then I suppose you have a point... lol.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
And I'd like to believe that there ARE pots of gold at the end of every rainbow, and that if you wish at a wishing well , your wish will come true. But we live in REALITY! What's sad is that you wouldn't have any hope if you knew that you weren't gonna be rewarded with eternal life in heaven. Atheists don't need to seek reward or fear punishment to contribute to society and have hope for advancing humanity. It's religion that holds back humanity, my friend. NOT ATHEISM.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
Mother nature refers to nature, just as mother Earth refers to Earth. Nature exists, it's around us.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
Exactly, there's nothing "supernatural" about it.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Should I repeat the request for your source on this grand and unsubstantiated proclamation you have offered or is this rather "small" sample and your personal history how you came to falsely claim as fact that...
Well it's a fact that many atheists who were brought up atheists DO, in fact, come to Christianity later
I realize that this is YT and that truth and honesty often get lost in the in the zeal to win. I won't hold my breath waiting for your sources. Waiting for the nonexistent.
yubedude 2 years ago
The debate present on this thread is pretty entertaining...I am an individual that doesn't know whether or not to continue to believe in god. I was raised in a very religious househould, and it influenced my Mother's entire lifestyle (including several decisions that I don't agree with)...I have believed in god, and I don't claim atheism just yet, but I will say this much: I find no proof of god's existence, and I'm hard pressed to find any solid evidence. Is there any CasperTheMeanieGhost?
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamnnikii
If i gave u solid evidence that time,space,matter and energy literally began to exist,would u count that as evidence for God?
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
No, actually, it wouldn't. That they do exist is evident. How would you prove to me as to when they began to exist? Or when they were created... since that is the argument here... "And then there was man..."
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
It is FACTUALLY the case that time,space,matter and energy literally originated at the singularity (i can PM u with the goodies if u want me to).
Now,the fact that u say u would not count it as evidence if i literally showed u that time,space,matter and energy had an origin,honestly makes me question whether u are actually even open to evidence.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
I am not debating their existence. I am merely stating that you cannot prove that they were either already in existence before man, or created shortly before the existence of man...There is LITERALLY no scientific evidence for the existence of god. There is a book that was written by a collection of individuals that were "anointed" by a so-called "higher being" that is supposed to point to that existence, but it is a series of books, written by a series of MEN. Not Proof.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
I just gave u evidence (i PM`d u with the facts).are u telling me everything came from nothing?
Do u believe the more complex something is,the more it requires an intelligence or the LESS it requires an intelligence???
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
I'm not telling you that everything came from nothing. I also haven't claimed atheism as my belief. I am merely saying that it cannot be proven scientifically that god exists.
Have we tested the theory that you PM'd me? The "facts"? Do we have a little rocketman out there with his timex, testing that hypothesis? It is NOT proven. Thus is is NOT fact.
It is called a "belief"... god is alive ONLY in the faith that some people possess. The concept of god is not a proven fact.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
IT IS PROVEN that time,space,matter and energy FACTUALLY began to exist.that evidence i gave u was from atheist scientists! most atheists tend to surgar coat that they have to believe in self creation but can u blame them? i mean,how do u tell someone with a str8 face that everything came from nothing?
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
How can you tell someone with a "str8" face that everything came from an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that knows everything about everything and he loves us all but designed a place called hell for us to go if we're bad?! Get fuckin' real!
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@gerrodallen
Which is more reasonable? EVERYTHING came from NOTHING or everything came from a self existent being??? (this shouldn`t be a tough question even for u)
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
If we ask 'where we came from?' and answered with 'a greater being came created us', then we must also ask 'where did the greater being came from?' If the question is dodged with the response 'he was always there', then we must also ask 'why can't the universe in which we live in lasts eternal in one form or another'. Your proposition of a greater being fails once you realize this problem, god created us, someone created god, etc, etc, it goes down into infinite regression which is impossible.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
@ddd
No offense but that is an amateurish argument.i`m shocked that atheists still use it.
We KNOW that something always existed.the problem is that it CAN`T be the universe.therefore,it must be the cause of the universe.
Now,given that u were ready and willing to accept an eternal universe,u should have no problem accepting the idea of an eternal God.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
My stance on the beginning of the world is 'don't know'. We have no facilities to further 'guess' at this.
Now I would in turn ask you, why can't the universe be eternal in one form or another? Sure the current universe we live in originated from the Big Bang. But what was the universe like before that? Surely it's plausible to say that something existed before that or that the universe creates and destroys in a cycle. Big Bang and the Big Crunch so to speak.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"big bang and the big crunch"
No No No ... u are decades behind lol.
I am going to PM u with why time,space,matter and energy FACTUALLY began to exist.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
I'll wait for it :)
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
You are also ignoring my saying of that a god cannot exist, because that will go into infinite regression of existence.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"god cannot exist,because that wilkl go into infinite regression"
No,a cause of the universe is NECESSARILY timeless.any timeless entity avoids infinite regression.the universe IS NOT a timeless entity and cannot avoid infinite regression.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
lol ... i butchered ur quote.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Sigh* Time is limited to what is in our current universe. If you are arguing that everything must have a cause, then you also need to look at the cause of your god. If you say god is 'timeless' (I use this term loosely) then the universe can also be timeless in the sense that it was there before the Big Bang in one form or another.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"everything must have a cause"
NO! ... everything that BEGAN to exist has a cause.something that NECESSARILY never began to exist (such as a cause of this universe) doesn`t require a cause.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
YES, so why can't the universe's cause be some sort of unknown medium in which the universe is held? Why do you push it to a god? And why do you attribute god 'never began to exist'? Surely if you do so, then you can as well attributed to my proposition that a universe or a medium containing it has always existed in some form or another.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
A cause of the universe would necessarily have been in an ETERNAL STATE.how could something that was in an ETERNAL STATE change from that state (apart from a volitional act)?
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Well the eternal state can be set to allow change. Say we have an plane of molecules bouncing around at each other eternally, if they hit, something happens( this is hypothetical).
And I can fire that question right back at your god. Your god sat there for eternity, all peaceful and whatnot, but then suddenly decided to create a universe, why is this so? Surely he knew that Adam and Eve was going to sin, he knew that mankind would become as corrupted as we are now, why would he make this?
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"the eternal state can be set to allow change"
No,then it wouldn`t be a timeless eternal state anymore WHICH IT NECESSARILY WAS.
A volitional being actually makes sense of this because a volitional being has the power to create change.a timeless eternal state can ONLY be a timeless eternal state.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Yes it will make sense. If something is allowed to set for change and without the need of time, then it is a timeless, eternal, yet changeable state.
Your god makes even less sense. Conscience as we know it are merely electrons moving in your brain, so how can a being even think outside time?
But that's beside the point again. I'll state my point clearly since you seem not to understand it:
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
Another you attribute to god can be attributed to something else, so why does it have to be god, why do you not attributed to something else? Just as an god can be made up to fit anything, mediums and propositions can be made for the same purposes, there is no reason to pin anything on a god if your mind cannot think of another reason.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"why does it have to be god?"
U bare witness that it is God.u will admit that the cause of the universe was timeless,non-spatial,immaterial,immensely powerful and had the causal ability (VOLITION) to change from a timeless eternal state.furthermore,the cause produced an intricate symbiotic universe.
U can call that cause whatever u like but it doesn`t take a genius to see that this fits perfectly with the concept of God.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
"how can a being even think outside time?"
IF i gave u evidence of a volitional source to explain a timeless eternal state changing from that timeless eternal state then this objection would simply be an argument from ignorance on ur part.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
"he knew adam and eve was going to sin"
I don`t deny that but God could have ULTIMATELY had meaningful reasons for allowing the fall.for example,the power of good over evil could never have been demonstrated without it or the devastating effects of sin we see could never have been demonstrated without it.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
This is the problem of your twisted religion. Your god allows love, but tortures people, kills them, murders, genocides, homicides, etc. Everything was fine in Eden, why did he make Satan if he knows the outcome? And even after that, why drown everything except a pair of every animal (and even that causes conplications),
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"why did he make satan if he knows the outcome?"
I just told u.there are meaningful reasons for why God would allow people whom he knew would ultimately reject him.
The power of good over evil could never be demonstrated.
The devastating effects of sin could never be demonstrated.
The greatest act of love could never be demonstrated (the christian doctrine of the cross)
Our true essence could never be revealed to us (everyone demonstrates their true essense through free will).
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Casper,
WHY must god demon-strate these things????
There is no logical reasoning considering the ultimate outcome will be the vast majority of the population burning in hell for eternity!! How/why is that something a loving creator would do?!
PluripotentBrain 2 years ago
@Pluri
Obviously,it is not "necessary" to demonstrate those things but they serve a meaningful purpose (ultimately).for example,do u deny that there is a meaningful purpose in demonstrating the power of moral good over moral evil?
Also,just because God foreknew that people would end up in a state of hell doesn`t negate that they will end up there on their own volition.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
This is my point! I really love putting myself in the Christian's shoes. IT'S INSANE to follow the logic of the Bible and act like it's "divinely appointed" IT'S BULLSHIT!
gerrodallen 2 years ago
Oh and one more thing, the two propositions, that everything came from nothing and that everything came from a self existent being are both unreasonable. I cannot picture nothing becoming something and I doubt anyone here can. I also cannot see how a greater being created us without asking where that greater being came as well. And as I have demonstrated, that leads into an infinite regression.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"the two propositions;are both unreasonable"
They are the ONLY propositions ... literally.
If an eternal universe is disproven (it is) then we are left with an ABSOLUTE dichotomy.either everything came from nothing or everything came from a self existent source.
Btw,something can only be a false dichotomy if one actually presents an alternative.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Yes they are the only propositions on the table, and both of them are unreasonable. And eternal universe is possible as long as the universe can exist in another form before the Big Bang. As a note, I do not belief in such but I'm just saying that it's possible and so does many other propositions such as the multi-universe and that the two propostions are both unlikely.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"multi-universe"
Even a multi-verse requires a beginning.this was proven by bourde,guth and vilenkin.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Hm alright, but that's besides the point. What allows your god to be 'timeless' when you not allow anything else to be? The universe can well be there before the Big Bang in one form or another or exist in another medium altogether that we know nothing about. What grants your god this timeless status? I would rightly question his existence if he ever existed. I'm also waiting for that PM.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
"what allows your god to be timeless"
By virtue of the fact of what it means to cause time,space,matter and energy into existence.if the cause of time is not timeless then time wouldn`t have an origin WHICH IT DOES.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
You know that time as we know it only exist in our universe right? Anything outside it, say whatever was in the realm of the Big Bang, can then be considered timeless. I also thought that you meant timeless as in no chronological beginning (that's the sense I'm using it in anyways). As I said, a universe existing in a certain form or a medium for it to exist can be eternal.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
New discoveries have been made about another universe whose collapse appears to have given birth to the one we live in today.
"My paper introduces a new mathematical model that we can use to derive new details about the properties of a quantum state as it travels through the Big Bounce, which replaces the classical idea of a Big Bang as the beginning of our universe," said Martin Bojowald, assistant professor of physics at Penn State.
- sciencedaily. com/releases/2007/07/070702084231. htm
PluripotentBrain 2 years ago
@pluripoten
A multi-verse can`t save u.bourde,guth and vilenkin have shown that even a multi-verse requires a beginning (based on general relativity).
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Even if that is the case, your anthropomorphic deity logically fails when it comes to creation.
Watch this:
watch?v=J3jf7PgPqWM
PluripotentBrain 2 years ago
@pluripotent
I already dealt with this ... IF i provide evidence of a voltional source changing from a timeless eternal state then arguing that volition (or consciousness) cannot exist apart from time would be an argument from ignorance on ur part.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Time and space as we know it in our universe came to existence during the Big Bang. The origins of matter and energy is unknown. The Big Bang was a massive overheated mass of matter and energy, and that's the furthest back in time we know. What happened before the Big Bang, we do not know.
The second problem is you is that you assume atheist = belief that everything came from nothing, that's not true and no one here is saying that everything came from nothing.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
@ddd
Do u deny that time,space,matter and energy literally originated at the singularity?
I never said atheism=belief in self creation.i`m simply appealing to the evidence that time,space,matter and energy FACTUALLY began to exist.i will say this ... atheism=the BELIEF in a non-contingent universe.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
As I said, time and space did originate at the Big Bang, your so called singularity. Mass and energy is a different story, they made up the Big Bang and could have existed beforehand.
Atheism is the belief that there is no divine being, no god(s). It is not that belief in a non-contingent universe, although it can lead to such a belief. For example, one can say that the universe is caused maturely, although the details are left out, just like the genesis story.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
NATURALLY, no MATURELY, sorry.
dddarrenccc 2 years ago
So, it is proven that time, space, matter, and energy factually began to exist. Is it proven that they were CREATED? When did they begin to exist? What is this in the scheme of you trying to prove with your repetitive "logic" that god exists? You're deviating from that topic with statements that fail to support your argument. I'm not saying specifically what I believe, I'm only saying that there is NOTHING to prove, with an absolute certainty, that god exists.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
"is it proven that they were CREATED?"
No,it is PROVEN that u are left with an ABSOLUTE dichotomy.either everything made itself or a self existent being made everything.
Now,if u want to call this a false dichotomy then u need to present an alternative.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Like I stated before: I'm not presenting my beliefs, mainly because I'm still figuring that out...
You are dead set on the fact that everything was created... yet you fail to support your argument. State that it's just your opinion, and there you go... everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Yet here you are, trying to prove your point... for what? Save your breath, you have nothing solid backing your arguments.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
"you are dead set on the fact that everything was created"
Of course! it is utterly irrational to believe nothing created everything.nothing doesn`t have any attributes! it has no existence! it has to exist in order to do anything at all lol.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
@CasperTheMeanieGhost :
It is utterly irrational to believe nothing created everything? On that note, isn't it irrational to believe that something or someone was just there? "Hey, I'm bored, for shits and giggles let me create some mankind in my image and see how they fare..." That makes more sense to you? Why don't you believe that the giant sea turtle climbed out of the ocean with the earth on it's back? That has just as much proof as god existing.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
"isn`t it irrational to believe that something or someone was just there?"
Not only is it NOT irrational,it`s a NECESSITY.
If something exists now then something always existed.the problem for u is we know the universe (time,space,matter & energy) began to exist.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
@CasperTheMeanieGhost
That they began to exist is not the debate here... it is HOW they began to exist.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
"it is HOW they began to exist"
Well,ANY "HOW" u come up with will be SUPERNATURAL!
If u don`t have time,space,matter and energy then u don`t have a "natural" world anymore,do u?
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
@CasperTheMeanieGhost
You go in circles, sir, without actually saying anything...
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
Define nature ... are u telling me there is MORE than time,space,matter and energy? if so then u are starting to sound very metaphysical ;)
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
@CasperTheMeanieGhost
Where do you come up with this stuff? I'm not telling you to read between the lines in my comments... What is there is what I mean. Get over your self-glorified redundant babble and move on. I'm finished with this discussion... I don't feel the need to state my point more times than I have.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
What are u talking about?
I asked u to define "nature" ... what`s wrong? is it starting to dawn on u that any cause that is void of time,space,matter and energy is BY DEFINITION supernatural?
Hey,u could always appeal to an eternal univer err err ... oops,i already disproved that one.sorry.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
@CasperTheMeanieGhost
Hahaha, *shakes head*... there you go again Casper, reading between my lines. It is merely as I stated. I'm done, because it's like arguing with a 5 year old... Muah to you for continually trying.
gotdamnnikii 2 years ago
@gotdamn
I should have known it was pointless arguing with u.
Hey,at least i got a kiss out of it :)
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
"with absolute certainty,that god exists"
Nobody is arguing that.we don`t have "absolute certainty" about anything at all.that is the nature of being limited beings.this doesn`t mean we can`t come to reasonable conclusions about things.there is no knowledge of which we have that doesn`t have a measure faith ... u can`t name me one thing that doesn`t involve a measure of faith.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Ummm. What about: "humans breath air"? How much faith does that involve? Or maybe, "I am alive" is that stepping out on a limb of faith. Faith means, belief in something without evidence! Christ.....
gerrodallen 2 years ago
u can`t name me one thing that doesn`t involve a measure of faith.
I know for a fact that I exist. It is an objective truth that can be confirmed by myself ( I have a physical presence that displaces water), as well as by others.
None of this requires faith, I am as you are an objective truth that does not exist as just a subjective idea.
Sorry to jump in but your request for something that does not require faith was just to compelling.
yubedude 2 years ago
No shit! But the Christian Movement isn't talking about metaphysics or God from a philosophical standpoint, it's preaching it as LITERAL TRUTH. As in IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. That's what I have a problem with. I don't care if you believe a magical, purple seahorse follows you around all day and feeds you little pieces of the rainbow. Believe what you will, but when you start saying it's TRULY and PHYSICALLY happening, then you need to SCIENTIFICALLY back it up. Christianity FAILS to do so!
gerrodallen 2 years ago
No shit! But the Christian Movement isn't talking about metaphysics or God from a philosophical standpoint, it's preaching it as LITERAL TRUTH. As in IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. That's what I have a problem with. I don't care if you believe a magical, purple seahorse follows you around all day and feeds you little pieces of the rainbow. Believe what you will, but when you start saying it's TRULY and PHYSICALLY happening, then you need to SCIENTIFICALLY back it up. Christianity FAILS to do so!
gerrodallen 2 years ago
Then you're using religion as a philosophical ideology, rather than actually believing it as physical fact. Common era scientists discredit and refute more and more "philosophers" old, outdated ideas EVERY SINGLE DAY! Are you actually arguing that there is a supreme being? Cause you seem to be hung up on semantics, rather than TRUTH!
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@Cartesian
20 bucks says this guy gets all his "arguments" from the god delusion (snickers)
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Wrong again, we are not speaking of the "historical vast majority", that's where the entire fairytale of God got started in the first place.
I am speaking of COMMON ERA SCIENTISTS! 93% of scientists in the national academy of sciences are atheist. That's what I would call the "vast majority". Nice try though...
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@gerrodallen
The national academy of science is basically an atheist clubhouse.if we look at the stats for all professional scientists,HALF believe in a personal God.guess how many people around the globe believe in a personal God? ... HALF!
So the percentage of scientists who believe in a personal God is the same as the common man (globally speaking).
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
And I could say my fuckin cat is my "personal god", but we are talking about these scientists believing in a omnipotent, omnipresent, SUPREME CREATOR. The judeo-christian god. Guaranteed that's not what they mean, and I guarantee you know that as well but you're choosing not to understand that for the sake of your argument.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@gerrodallen
Actually,to be more specific ... HALF of ALL scientists believe in a "PERSONAL" God who ANSWERS PRAYER! this is according to the 1997 survey of scientists (i bet that really pisses u off).
Does ur cat answer prayer?
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Care to throw a link in there? Which scientists are you talking about? And yes, on occasion, my cat answers prayer.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@gerrodallen
It was a Gallop 1997 poll where the survey specifically asked "do u believe in a personal God who answers prayer?" to which 40% responded yes and 45% responded no.
Also,according to a nov,24 2009 LA times article by david Masci,a pew research center poll showed that the MAJORITY of scientists (51%) believed in a God while only 41% said they did not.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
It was a Gallop 1997 poll...
(link-religioustolerance org)
You will notice that you have mis-stated the %'s The no's were 55%. Of the 40% they did not adhere to the literal interpretation of the bible. Plus some of these "scientist" were in fields such as computer science, business administration and physiology. Not what one would call the hard natural sciences.
Why is it that truth is so hard to obtain from those who live behind the veil of "belief". The last is rhetorical, no need to reply.
yubedude 2 years ago
@yubedude
"The no`s were 55%"
No,the "no`s" were 45%.the rest were "i don`t know".u are lumping the "i don`t know" with the "no`s".also,who said anything about literal interpretation of the bible? i was pointing out that half of scientists believe in a personal God.that`s it.
That pew research poll i mentioned (from 2009) actually shows the MAJORITY of scientists (51%) believe in a God while 41% say they don`t believe in a God (with the rest unsure).
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Why do you continue to use numbers without a source link? The contrary numbers I offered have a source link. I prefer facts and sources rather than reaching back and pulling something out of...well, you get the picture.
Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process. 55% of scientist Gallup (not Gallop) poll 1997. My source made no mention of the "i don`t know" group
(link-religioustolerance org)
I did not comment on the Pew poll.
yubedude 2 years ago
Casper
I will take your non reply and your lack of a source for the Gallup poll that you misrepresented to be evidence that you either have no source for your data or that your god told you to "fight the good fight" with whatever disinformation you could spread. This must be one of those mysterious ways that are often mentioned by your side.
At this point I will move on to a more honest and rational thread.
yubedude 2 years ago
@ yubedude
I was referring to the 1998 Larson and Whitham study.
Btw,i kept trying to post info on the MAJORITY of scientists believing in a God last night but it wouldn`t post then or now.
YOUTUBE SUCKS!
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Well it's a fact that many atheists who were brought up atheists DO, in fact, come to Christianity later in life
If it is an objective fact and not a subjective than you should have no problem showing your sources. Also a philosopher is not necessarily a logistican (an expert in logic) if they are and insist on passing off the subjective for an objective truth then they are either lying or are denying the objective truth. Name a few who believe in God and deny the objective truth.
yubedude 2 years ago
@CartesianTheist
And there are many rapists that are Christian as well. Do you hear me saying that if you're a rapist you're a Christian? No, you don't! The reason is because MOST Christians aren't rapists but there are some. Now STATISTICALLY speaking MOST as in THE MAJORITY of "respected" scientists are NOT religious. But as your poor argument pointed out, there are SOME religious scientists. But we are looking at the majority for understanding and debate in this argument. That's what counts!
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@CartesianTheist
There are many Muslim and Jewish Profs at these institutions. Does that make their equally irrational religions right?
All three beliefs are mutually exclusive, so logically at least two are wrong. I contend that all three are wrong because they all share the same base irrationality.
Would you like to watch some of their debates? They are pathetic.
Think4Yourselves 2 years ago
Great video man!
One of my questions to Christians is if God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loving...why the fuck did he bother to create the universe in the first place? He would have known that the vast majority of people would burn in hell because of his absurdly, petty, salvation system.
Another good one is, if God created everything, and evil exists, than evil is intrinsically a part of God's nature [he is supposedly all good].
To quote you: "This is ignorant fucking bullshit!"
Think4Yourselves 2 years ago 3
Thanks, it's amazing how Christians will come up with the most INSANE excuses to defend "God's plan". They have to keep coming up with cop-outs in order to stay in the debate. My favorites are : "God works in mysterious ways", and "He's just testing our faith". LMFAO! Check out my other video, "Jesus, Loving and Attentive" for more on this subject. Thanks again, love the comments.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@Think4Yourselves This is my main point to try to get a theists brain to function..Why did God create all the 'hell bound' knowing before hand their destiny? The ALL LOVING MERCIFUL thing would be to spare the 'evil ones' by not creating them to begin with. Also.. Perfection cannot beget imperfection..God being PERFECT could not have created this IMPERFECT world.Hence God is illogical.
JAEDOGNYC 2 years ago
Once again, the video is titled "My Question to all Christians" this means I'm asking them directly. If you fall into this category, then I want Christians to ask themselves this question. The majority of intelligent people will understand my question and see my point. If you wouldn't feel compelled to believe something as an adult, that tends to question the accuracy of the topic at hand. Do you get it?
gerrodallen 2 years ago
This video is complete bullshit.ur basically saying that christians only hold to their beliefs because they were fed those beliefs at a young age.what about all those who became christians later on in life?
FAIL.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
That's not what I'm saying. And I guarantee if you watched it again and actually listened, you'd understand that I'm saying they were subjected to it at an early age/were raised around it/at least knew about it. Therefore it wasn't as big a shock when these people you speak of may have converted to Christianity. Someone who lived a rich and wholesome life before religion wouldn't accept this nonsense story today.
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@gerrodallen
More bullshit ... plenty of people who have never been exposed to christianity from all around the globe have converted to christianity!
Anymore bullshit u care to throw at me?
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Your argument is TERRIBLE! Anyone could say ANYTHING about someone subscribing to a religion in their adult life. I'd like you to actually back up what you are claiming AND show me how it REFUTES my claim. You're acting like you don't see my point. But that's ok, thanks for your comments. ;)
gerrodallen 2 years ago
@gorrodallen
What are u talking about? LOL ... u really need me to spell out how ridiculous ur argument is?
U said people convert because "they were subjected to it at an early age/were raised around it".do i really need to show u how FACTUALLY wrong that is?
"you`re acting like you don`t see my point"
I`m "acting"? ... it`s not my fault u can`t see how flawed ur argument is.
CasperTheMeanieGhost 2 years ago
Are you kidding me? You made absolutely NO POINT in your last post. If you wanna have a logical debate you'll have to bring some sort of argument to the table.
gerrodallen 2 years ago