look goku n superman will never fight each other n gokus real power level in super sayian 1 is 1 million no higher so before any of u punks try to say oh goku is stronger than anyone that is wrong every time vegeta transformed into super sayian 1 goku had to go to super sayian 2 so vegeta will always be stronger than goku
look goku n superman will never fight each other n gokus real power level in super sayian 1 is 1 million no higher so before any of u punks try to say oh goku is stronger than anyone that is wrong every time vegeta transformed into super sayian 1 goku had to go to super sayian 2 so vegeta will always be stronger than goku
There is no evil Goku or SSJ5 and superman looses against SSJ1 goku because superman has no fighting skill Goku has a power level of 1,010,000,000,000 and superman is at only 180,000,000
i'm a fan of DC comics but i don't like that they never really determinated superman's strength and power, like what are his limits, i know he gets strength from the sun, but one time he gets betten easlly and the other no one can give him a scratch. does the anger have something to do with it?
mathematically lower power increases of training and recovering from injuries. Either way, the point of my system is to make an objective set of rules that isn't open to mine, or anyone else's interpretation or judgement. And I fully acknowledge that it's likely not 100% accurate. I expect a 50% margin for error. And I don't think the calculation can be made more accurate without compromising my objectivity.
@Laurcus What i am saying is that transformations shouldn't take part at all at the multiplier! After the final base powerlevel is calculated then it will be multiplied with 50x respectively for each ssj level.Transformations don't affect the base pl after all, they just increase it.Anyway i would like to ask what your thoughts are about fusions and their multiplier.NOTE:there are 3 kinds of fusions.namekian,technique and earrings
@pant104 Okay, I get what you're saying. Mathematically, it comes out to the same thing, no matter what point you add in the super saiyan power increases, so it doesn't make a difference really. As for fusions, they add an enormous amount of power. I believe the potarra earrings to be the most powerful kind of fusion. Honestly though, concerning multiplier, I've never really put a lot of time into the math behind that. Fusion did make a base form Saiyan stronger than a SS3 though, so it's big.
Take your time to put some thought into it.My personal opinion so far is that the fusion technique is the weaker of the 3 . About the namekian fusion/union. Piccolo and Nail increased their added power level at least 20x to fight frieza at roughly 1,5 million (unless you think picollo was a lot stronger) i am putting nail at 42000 and piccolo at dunno 12?.Now taking into acount that Vegito was much stronger than ssj3 i would say that potara muliply their added pl by at least 100 times
@pant104 Right off hand what you say makes sense. I do feel that Piccolo's PL had increased somewhat, but it doesn't change the fact that the Namekian fusion was quite an increase. I'll get back to you later when I come up with more specific calculations.
In retrospect, I greatly underestimated Goku's power level previously. That concludes my small essay, any questions or did I basically cover everything?
The mathematical average of 30 should be applied to all cases for obvious reasons eg Goku ssj vs 19 couldn't possibly be 30 times stronger than namek ssj .But it depends on wich ocations you multyply by the 30 factor.If you iclude the ssj tranformation on that power increase you should exclude it from all other cases of /train/zenkai except ssj1,2,3 and 4 or just say that the average zenkai/train is 5x or more and 50x base with each ssj lvl for more accurate pl.Correct me if i am wrong
@pant104 I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're getting at, but I'll take a crack at it. I think what you're saying is that training and major injuries should follow a separate formula because SS1 is shown to be a times 50 increase? Well, that wouldn't neccessarily make it more accurate overall. Some power increases were smaller than times 30, but some were very close. So I feel that my way is the fairest way to do things, as the underestimated SS pl increases are meant to balance out the
According to moder science, there are roughly 2 Nonillion Earths worth of mass in the universe. That means Goku can destroy our universe. 32,187,264,463,242,998,523,576,494,149,017,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 32 Octosexagintillion times over in a single blast.
Anywho, time for some other fun facts. Using my earlier calculation of 14,600 = Earth sized planet, end of GT Goku could destroy 64,374,528,926,485,997,047,152,988,298,034,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Earth sized planets in one blast!
939,868,122,326,695,556,888,433,629,151,290,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 939 Quinoctogintillion. And my thinking behind the times 30 power increase is that it's simply the mathematical average of his recorded DBZ power increases.
202,627,757,650,948,813,350,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 202.6 Sexvigintillion. And now, for Goku's final power level. This is SS4 Goku's PL, post 100 year timeskip.
the major milestones in the comments. FPSS Goku vs Cell. 98,415,000,000,000,000,000. 98.4 quintillion. SS3 Goku vs Fat Buu. 17,433,922,005,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 17.4 Quattuordecillion. SS3 Goku post 10 year timeskip. This is his final power level in DBZ. 30,883,669,814,197,350,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 30.8 Unvgintillion. SS4 Goku vs Baby.
My system is not designed to be perfect. It is however designed to be accurate to within at least a 50% margin for error, as that's as perfect as I can get it without help from Akira Toriyama himself. Anywho, from there I basically just got out a calculator, put in 150 mil, and multiplied by 30 for every major power increasing event. This naturally required rewatching all of DBZ/GT to make sure I missed nothing in regards to major injuries. I have the entire process recorded, but will only post
assume that power increases at the same rate as a percent all the way till the end of GT. Once I had that established, the process was fairly simple. Looking at Goku's power increases from the Saiyan-Frieza sagas, I believe his power typically increased by a factor of 30 for every significant period of training, every major injury he recovered from, and every transformation he went through. Some were bigger, such as Super Saiyan, and some were smaller, such as his training under King Kai.
@Laurcus You are right the zenkai boosts should be the same during all dbz and Gt but that didn't quite apply to db did it?Anyway i just said that because the zenkai boost in later sagas didn't make such of an obvious difference in comparison with the namek saga.What is your thinking behind the factor of 30 increase exactly?
Ginyu? The event that made his PL go from 90k to 3mil? Also, the idea that power increases show get smaller after Super Saiyan is silly. Such a thing isn't even hinted at in any form of DBZ media, be it manga, anime, anime filler, movies, or even video games. In fact the closest thing we have that even resembles evidence one way or another are DBZ RPG-like games that involve leveling up, and in those power increases normally at all points. There's no evidence one way or another, so I have to
planet, you need a power level of roughly 14,600. This lines up very nicely with Vegeta having a power level of 18,000 and threatening to destroy the Earth. Plus him destroying Arlia in filler, it's too perfect. The next thing I wanted to determine, is how fast power levels should increase. Before, I assumed that SS2 isn't hundreds of times stronger than SS1 because it just seemed implausible to me. That's dumb. Was SS2 portrayed as a smaller increase than Goku recovering from his fight with
@Laurcus his strength should effortlessly range into the multi-megaton level at the very least. Arguably the strongest being on the planet and one of the strongest beings in the Universe., he is so strong that he is capable of ripping off the arm of the likes of Darkseid ],he has been able to move the planet Earth away from the Sun while a powerful Cosmic Entity, Starbreaker was pushing it toward the Sun, he is so strong he possesses the strength necessary shatter entire worlds
@Laurcus Oh look he can shattter planets with his bare hands frieza had to use core explosion LEARN U NOOB.Superman's body is nigh-invulnerableHe has entered the Sun and emerged completely unharmed[329], he has even traveled through Krypton's Red Sun and survived physically unharmed, even though Red Solar Radiation depowers and weakens him
@Laurcus Im not done u spammed so much stupidity He has been seen to skirt the photosphere of the sun (100,000,000 degrees F). Superman has even been shown withstanding Darkseid's Omega Beams, a feat that was previously considered impossible.AND HOW MANY TIMES HAS THE SUN IN DBZ KILLED SOME ONE SUPS FUCKING CAN FLY IN IT FOR FUN.
@TinyTitian Most likely his greatest feat of durability recently, is that he was recently able to withstand the destructive power of a Sun exploding and going Nova (A result of Brainiac’s technology.) at point blank range to the planet he was on (Which was eradicated by the force of the explosion with the rest of the surrounding system.) and survived without any visible physical damage
@Laurcus Superman can move at speeds much faster than light and is one of the fastest beings in the Universe. Superman can match most other speedsters in their ability to perform super fast movements, reactions, and processes. he was seen running steadily alongside the flash at a speed of 2000 miles per second (mach 9350) . Superman is so fast that he is even able to vibrate through blows
@Laurcus In the extreme event that Superman is harmed, either by an cosmic entity or ni omnipotent matching his own strength or other occurence, he has been shown to have the ability to heal almost instantaneously from any wound,
@Laurcus ALSO U FUCKING RETARDED NOOB DC SYSTEMS DOESENT HAVE A CLASS 1000 DIPS SHIT IT JUST SAYS 100+ for stronger beings meaing it just continuously goes up,
@Laurcus Class 100+; the exact magnitude of Superman's strength is unknown but he has demonstrated that his strength is so vast, that he is capable of even moving an object as large as a planet. This ability to move large objects suggests that his apparent strength may be partially psionic in nature due to the laws of physics which place clear limits on a human-sized object moving a planetary-sized one.
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
@Laurcus U watched and read sups comics and think he would loose still and thinks he cant even destroy a planet, WHAT DRUGS ARE U ON Im just gona have to type out all his powers cause you must not have ever seen sups fight cosmic entitys and ni omnipotents, those are damn near gods who can bend reality and the fabric of time btw and kill 98% of existince by wishing it away with little effort.
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with raw facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with raw facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with raw facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
fighting is without a doubt lower than amazing level in the Marvel system. Goku would have had amazing level fighting, which is classified as the maximum skill an ordinary human can attain, before he completed his training under Master Roshi in Dragonball. The idea that PC Superman can contend with any version of Goku post Ginyu saga is simply ludicrous. Okay, now for math concerning Goku's power level, this is the complicated stuff. A while ago, I decided that I wanted to try and guess Goku's
@Laurcus Although i prefer Dbz i am by no means a superman hater jus for the record.I agree 100% with what you say.People tend to overestimate superman's capabilities and fail to see the excessive increases of the powerlevels over the sagas.I would also say given the facts provided that frieza 1rst form is far superior than a class 3000 being.But please continue! You can pm if you find it hard to post here btw
pre crisis Superman without a doubt has class 1000 strength. I will argue to the death that in DBZ energy = strength. With a PL of 530,000 first form Frieza destroys a planet. That means he is minimum a class 3000 being, likely putting Superman's level of strength somewhere around Saiyan/Namek saga levels. There is also a point where PC Superman loses his powers. During this time he has a boxing match with Muhammed Ali, which he loses without landing a single hit. This shows that his skill in
One very damning piece of evidence is that pre crisis fails to move a planet, with the help of Green Lantern. He has moved moons before though, this allows me to assign a very specific value to his strength. This value comes from the marvel superheroes system, though I feel it applies perfectly in this situation. The ability to move a moon is class 1000 on the universal power table on classicmarvelforever(dot)com. The next highest rank is class 3000, the strength to move a planet. Therefore,
@Laurcus Da fuck were you reading golden age sups, pre crisis shit and post crisis and new modern sups hes op again btw can easily move planets, Shit he moved eath wile a cosmic entity was dragging it to earth,And no marvel and dc are 2 very different universes with different laws Marvel has a ruleing power source,Life energy were all heros get there power from dc doesent.Plus again He went blow to blow with the anti monitor who was going around destroying dimensions, Entire existences
@TinyTitian That's quite the novel you've written there. I see you wish for no degree of civility though, as you've clearly shown me none with your blatant insults. So I will keep my response short and sweet. Pre crisis Superman has both shown and stated several limits. He has stated that he is able to destroy planets, but not in a single blow. It would take some time and effort. There was also one incident where he tried to move Earth, with the help of Green Lantern. They failed.
@Laurcus I can understand your confusion of thinking why supermans weak tho cause unlike other cosmic entity's he relys on punching alot, Even tho he can beat darkseid Dark seids powers over mortals and galatic enemies make him seem alot cooler and godlike that sups is,I have always felt aside from moving real heavy shit and going blow to blow with the best of em sups needs a more cool power reason why I like goku more. Cause sups is punch punch punch,fly at light speed, use heat ray
@TinyTitian I will admit one thing. I have very little patience for trolls, which you obviously are judging by the inflammatory way you started this little "conversation". Superman can only move planets when he removes at least one limiter. Oh and for the record, you're wrong, there aren't two pre crisis Superman's there's 3. Well, there's a lot more if you want to count alternate versions, but there's 3 main ones. Golden age, Bronze age, and Silver age. We have both been talking about Silver.
@TinyTitian Instead of analyzing and picking apart your wall of text, I will try to make this somewhat brief. Under the Marvel rule system, Superman with all limiters removed, would be a class 3000 being. Which is damn powerful, 2nd strongest power rating there is. Class 3000 is equal to a power level of 14,600 though, the ability to destroy a planet. He would be at the higher end of class 3000, as he's capable of lifting multiple planets with all limiters removed. SS1 Frieza saga Goku is over
@TinyTitian 10000 times stronger than that though. But that's not even what's being debated. What's being debated is Goku at his strongest. That means Super Saiyan 4, post godhood. Goku becomes a truly immortal being at the end of GT, and is a lot stronger than SS1. The Big Bang is 2 Nonillion Earth's worth of mass, by real world science. Destroying the universe would be trivial for the final version of Goku. By my calculations, he could literally do it 32 Octosexagintillion times over.
@Laurcus When did freiza lift a planet.Moving a planet and destroying one is 2 diff things u know.It takes power to do things purely with will to move a planet cause if done with pure strnght the planet would crumble. Destroying a planet and moving one is 2 diff things. Well at least your starting to realize sups is stronger Ill stop here cause theese arguments usually dont include ss4 since thats not cannnon to the manga, Goku is usually ss3 I do not know what a ss4 at full power
@TinyTitian In DBZ energy = strength. That is an undeniable fact of the setting, despite it being somewhat laws of physics breaking. Without that simple fact, first form Fireza is the strongest being in all of DBZ, with a power level of 530k, since he technically has the largest energy blast when he blows up planet Vegeta. Even as a SS3, Goku could still destroy the universe easily.
@Laurcus is fully capable of so ill just say if ss4 is a huge multiplyer Its a tie since goku has to kill his enemies and cosmic entitys and above need to be destroyed.Ill say this its fully agreed up on that sups can beat ss3 idk about ss4 cause usually hes not allowed for not being part of the manga.
@TinyTitian For one, I'll tell you straight up I'm not a manga purist. I consider the anime to be just as canonical, both were after all made by the same man, Akira Toriyama. And both the DBZ and DBGT animes have his full support and approval. And yes, Goku has been killed in the past, but only by beings of equal or greater power, such as Cell. Also, Goku is in the last episode of GT. He appears at the world tournament 100 years later, looking like he's 30. He then appears in the followup movie
@Laurcus I will admit ss4 is a nice and needed power up in terms of feets and definently puts him on a cosmic entitys level of speed and offensive power.
@TinyTitian And that's not a random number pulled out of my ass. I have all the math for it on notepad. Anywho, Superman destroying the universe would be trivial. Goku could just instant transmission to the afterlife. Not to mention he's immortal, immortal. No bullshit about it, no weaknesses, no stipulations. He's a flat out ageless, perfect, god being. Even before that, destroying a sun was insignificant. Broly destroys a galaxy with one hand. Oh, and for the record, no Broly was not killed
@Laurcus And again destroying a galaxy is part of being a galatic entity but what is such a feet to a cosmic entity like superman, Also goku has been killed so I dont know how hes immortal and he wasnt shown in the last ep of gt, His aged could be changed by the dragon, Sups does not age shit he goes around with fake grey hair to feel normal its kinda depressing its like a human liveing in a world of ants.And again COsmic entitys can destroy, When your destroyed u dont go to the after
@Laurcus U cease to exist, But again Idk SS4 full power So Im just going to assume it would make goku enuff to at least fight sups to a standstill, Cause theres a huge gap between ss3 and sups, Again dealing with dbz is a touchy subject there either completely underrated or completely over rated in arguments
@TinyTitian Dragonball GT a Hero's legacy, where he quite clearly displays multiple god powers, including altering reality like the dragonballs and being omnipresent. Either way, I disagree. I think SS3 Goku with the 15 years of training he undergoes at the end of DBZ would be more than a match for Superman, even with all limiters removed. Remember, Goku gets about 30 times stronger for every year he trains, and powering up was already starting to damage not the universe, but reality itself late
@TinyTitian in the Buu saga. Make no mistake though, Buu saga SS3 Goku could still destroy the entire universe billions of times over if he wanted to. This power is simply never shown because it would be ridiculous for a peaceful person like Goku to murder everyone in the universe.
@Laurcus Ya idk were you get theese numbers from you dont do theese debates much do u. SS3 goku coulnt do that, Kid buu couldnt either It took a while for kid buu to do the destroying he did when he took out the 3 surpeme ki. Also ss4 goku with effort was able to lift a whole half of a city back into place. Punched Super 17 across the world with effort. Ill give him credit tho cause again moveing large objects like that also take your mind to move it not just muscle.Cause with just
@TinyTitian by the sun, neither was Cooler. I was baiting you. It was actually the kamehameha's that killed them. It was basically a hammer and anvil effect, with the kamehamehas being the hammer and the sun being the anvil. The heat of the sun itself was insignificant.
@Laurcus Btw i was being rude cause of your improper use of power scaleing.owerscaling is often used for the Dragon Ball series to give out a higher given precedent of strength from far weaker fighters in the series.As you can see, powerscaling usually falls into the realm of speculation. While it can sometimes give you a general idea of the power of a character, it is rarely reliable as concrete evidence in a debate.Is often abused like hell by many faggots. Note not my words.
@TinyTitian That's no excuse for being rude. And actually, I engage in these sorts of "debates" rather frequently. I think my use of power scaling is quite correct. And as for where I get these numbers from, I explained that already before your first post. Which tells me you either have very poor reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read all of my posts. You likely read a few lines, and then posted in a fit of rage. And Kid Buu's limits are never shown concerning what he can destroy.
@TinyTitian In DBZ, power and area of effect are not the same thing. Kid Buu takes his sweet time with destroying the universe because that's what Kid Buu does. That doesn't mean he's incapable of simply unleashing more energy and devastating the universe with ease. There would simply be no point in doing so. If you wish, I will send you my entire notepad in a private message. It contains all of the math I've done on the subject in its most raw form.
@TinyTitian That means he is incapable of moving 13 septillion pounds. Also, I never claimed Marvel and DC are the same thing. Marvel superheroes is simply a basic power scaling system that can be applied to anything from DC, to Final Fantasy, to DBZ, to real life. It's a precise measurement system. Many of Superman's greatest feats were done with outside aid, such as sneezing and moving a galaxy. I will simply leave you with this. Youtube search pre crisis superman limitations.
@Laurcus btw you have little grasp of how powerful the sun is, Look up a super nova, again sups survive being in one of theese and look up how much dmg it can cause those things can wipe out a entire galaxy, in real life or fake life
@TinyTitian Oh, and one last thing. The explosion of a sun is utterly insignificant at the levels of power we're talking about. No character in DBZ has ever been killed by the sun. Not Cooler, not Broly, not Baby. And Frieza didn't need to destroy the core of a planet to blow it up, he chose to out of fear, a fact that Goku calls him on 2 episodes later.
@Laurcus Ok just to inform you theres two pre crisis supermans, The one that cant move a planet is not the one im talking about,And broly and cooler did get harmed by the sun in brolys case he died, Earth 2 I think the older superman moved structures bigger than earth and the space surrounding us and the moon this is in comics and dc data base your gona argue with that you know little about superman admit it.
@Laurcus If super faught imperiax who can do this just one of his feets,Imperiex arrives at Almerac, the home of Maxima, and not only destroys Almerac but "hollows" the whole GALAXY. After this, the survivors of the dead worlds, along with Earth, Apokolips and Brainiac 13's new Warworld, form a coalition, with Darkseid as its commander, to fight against Imperiex Prime and his probes. Super kills him By pushing his entire planet into a alt dinmension, He had to do this cause
@Laurcus If imperiax died in there dimension it woulda caused a second big bang, That means all EXISTENCE would be fucked. So not only could superman kill goku if he wanted he could just toss gokus planet into the sun literally look on dc database which is official of sups powers, Sups could then take off all his limiters then blow up the sun to make sure hes finnished. Goku has no way to beat sups hes stronger and faster period.Actually Let sups kill he can just snipe goku from orbit
@Laurcus And btw tho we call super man mortal,Hes mortal and not mortal at the same time.Basicly in comic disputes we clasify people in power levels, OMNIPOTENT is first has complete controll of all existence,all seeing all knowing etc this is god like slayers lord of nightmares celestials in slayers.
@Laurcus I ment celestial s in marvel I wrote slayers twice lol, Second to omnipotents is ni omnipotents Have one existence No matter how many dimmensions there are,there actions effect all existence if the detroy something its the entire of said diminsion then they move on or guard it, Examples of this The Anti monitor destroyed mutlipe dimensions in his reign turned em to nothingness, Another is unicron and primus unicron destroyed the universe and primus rebuilt it as he slept.
@Laurcus After his you have cosmic entity as dc fans call em,or sky fathers,I wish goku was one actualy hes not, Even the gay ass fagot sialor galaxy is one of theese she can destroy planets by pointing at em, Superman makes this list for being able to beat up cosmic entitys who get there powers from the cosmic like dark seid when sups does not hold back hes stronger and can even defy laws like survived darkstars omega effect(his eye beems) There supposed to litteraly be a devine attack
@Laurcus After this you have really really powerful mortals or galatic entitys planet obliteraters they destroy planets and can take out galaxies.With little effort. Unlike cosmic entitys they age, feel pain and can be visibly bruised cut or kill,cant reach light speed, They kill there enemies not destroy, Most powerful example of this Goku and Galvatron.
I have come to the conclusion that pre crisis Superman is significantly weaker than many people make him out to be. Many of his seemingly incredible feats of strength are only casually stated, or are done with outside help. Such as taking a punch with the power of 100 galaxies, and sneezing and blowing around galaxies. Those feats of strength are then contradicted repeatedly by other failures. Two of these failures have allowed me to classify his physical strength and fighting ability.
Superman is kind of a cheater but he is supposed to be powerful if you don't like it dbz fans don't ever put someone like superman to fight goku, make goku fight the thing or hulk
Continuing... I'm in for goku, not because he is better than superman or could win, but because he is a good role model and a better character, with better explanations, especially on his training. The way Goku was made is pure genius, unlike superman, who writers make up so many conflicts of his powers which comes to questioning. Superman maybe powerful only because he cheats from lousy writers, but he'll never have much respect as Goku. For Goku is a real character that "earns" his powers.
superman... a conflicting character that cheat on everything. People made him up in the most ridiculous ways that seem quite VERY stupid. Like superman escaping a black hole? nothing in existence can escape a black hole. I know for a fact that superman has atoms if he possess laser vision and if he has atoms, a black hole would rip every atom that he has in his body. Basically, he is a bad character that breaks to many rules. And The writers are probably children.
goku will eventually rape superman, even though the pre crisis one, how??? simple. Since superman's weaknesses are kryptonite and sun, goku will use his kamehameha to destroy the sun then bye bye superman hahaha
The fastest Goku has ever gone is the speed of light (instant transmission). In Death of New Gods #1 it took Superman less than 4 minutes to reach Metropolis on Earth from the Vega system in space. The Vega system is located 25.3 light years away from the Earth. That makes Superman’s travel speed at about 262.8 billion times the speed of light. This means that Superman is 262.8 billion times faster than Goku. And that's not even Superman's top speed.
@darkassassin611 Old comment I know but was that current or pre-crisis??? Im going for supes and I am having another debate with someone and I would like to know this.
easy if superman wanted to punch goku can easily dash away if he wanted to fire eye beam goku will not even feel it i mean he survived of broly thing 2-if superman had the chance to punch goku ,goku would use instant transmission and go behind superman and fire a kemhameha easy goku wins
@spinohorn1899 Well People must not know how op super man is,Second fastest being in existence to flash the fastest one only.Hes so fast he can go threw time with his speed and probly kill goku as a infant,But He can take blows from ni omnipotents mutli dimensional gods beat the anti monitor beat imperiax,Never displayed to be truly hurt never bleeds his clothes just get missed up he has a super dinse molecular structure. Goku can be harmed sups well cant,Super man can move planet
@spinohorn1899 Like there paper thin,and btw sups holds backs, At full power his eye beams could take out planets he one When just taking off one of his mental blocks that hold him backs, Made a hurricane that was cutting darkseid up, Spammed Light speed punches,And Eye beams wile flying aroung at light speed, Even on anime power scaling forums sups has more strength after all goku is still a mortal super man is referred to a new god of earth, And no not god as in omnipotent.
All Goku would have to do is keep him away from a yellow-sun and in time superman's strength would fade away (remember, Goku can use instant transmission to take the fight any where he wants & he can absorb the life force of any planet or people and use it to increase his own Powers).
in the comics these people kicked the crap out of "The Man of Steel" just imagine Goku setting his eye's on Superman: Mongul Superboy Prime Batman Darkside The Anti-Monitor Doomsday Lex Luthor & Black Adam. Only a few of these guys can match His raw power that is given to him by a yellow-sun which can be taken care of by instant transmission. but what about the rest of that list? the rest of the list, hand-to-hand combat fighters, magic, strategist or all 3. Goku has ALL 3 plus Raw Power.
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@itsgangstabob Well, lemme take a stab at it. Right off hand 4.8 billion seems closer. And I've actually been wanting to make youtube videos for a while now, but I currently have zero recording equipment. I just don't think SS2 Gohan could have been 390 times stronger than 100% final form Frieza. I guess it depends on if you think higher super saiyan forms multiply an equivalent amount of total power, or base power though. I'd have to think about to be honest.
@Laurcus Your perception of the Dbz universe is superb sir!Although i am pretty sure that the zenkai boost varies from a small percentage increase like vegeta 24000 to 28000 or goku(without kaioken) 90000 to roughly 3000000 to as big as the one you mentioned.Maybe 5x is a little too much of a multyplier for post ssj boosts or perhaps you are right
@pant104 Thank you for the compliment sir. Since my posts 3 months ago I have greatly refined my DBZ theorycrafting and mathematics. Through careful observation and much thought I have determined I was wrong about many things, and correct about certain other things. If you'd like to hear my current thoughts on the subject I'd be happy to post them.
@Laurcus I would love to! I hope you didn't change your mind enough to consider superman is a match for Goku or something!:p But i am interested to hear your thoughts anyway!
@pant104 Alrighty then, before I begin, know that this will be a small essay, and I won't be posting my entire mathematical process in the comments. Though if you, or anyone else is interested in that, I will glady PM it to you. It's just that it's over 10k characters, and I don't wish to make that many posts, because the 500 character limit is annoying and I'm already approaching it for this comment. Okay, first off, I want to start with Superman. I did quite a bit of research on his powers and
Somewhere, someone has to guess at how strong Goku is, or this debate is pointless. If you don't know exactly how strong Goku is, then who's to say who would win between him and Superman? At least when I guess, I base his power increases off averages from the saiyan and Frieza sagas, and then calculate in percent how much power Goku should gain.
Also, Omega Shenron was shown to have similar fighting skill and agility compared to the super saiyans. Superman has NEVER displayed super agility as a power, every DBZ/DBGT villain has. Omega Shenron wasn't winning on physical strength alone.
@itsgangstabob Omega Shenron was not stated to be able to destroy only one galaxy. Every living thing gives off a ki signal, a sun is just as alive as a blade of grass, only much bigger. Any other problem can be solved by using the black star dragonballs. I'm not going to bring character motivation into an x vs y battle, because then neither character would fight. Superman would never fight Goku because both are good characters. They'd be much more likely to work together.
@itsgangstabob Pre crisis being stronger than post crisis is a logical fallacy. Either the feat of lifting the book, or the dc database is wrong. You can't be stronger than infinite. And Omega Shenron never tries to destroy more than one galaxy, and I believe I've mathematically shown that SS4 Goku could destroy 34 galaxies in one kamehameha. Besides, it would be easy for Goku to destroy all the yellow suns in the galaxy, one at a time using instant transmission and the kamehameha wave.
@itsgangstabob I know you're saying that pre crisis has "tanked" more than Goku. What I'm saying is that that doesn't matter. Post crisis is the one with the supposedly infinite strength, (according to your own words) all you've said of pre crisis is that he's taken bigger hits than Goku. Goku has taken hits that have enough power to destroy 100 galaxies, so at best they're equal there. Post crisis doesn't even matter, therefore the whole book think is a moot point. Also, the book thing is
@Laurcus a logical fallacy. If the book had infinite weight, then Ultraman couldn't have lifted it, even with infinite strength. Infinite vs infinite is just another way of saying unstoppable force vs immovable object, which has been scientifically proven to be a false concept because both cannot exist in the same universe, or both would shatter upon contact. So that comes down to ridiculously terrible writing. Either way, it doesn't matter. Post crisis is useless, and pre crisis isn't as
@Laurcus strong as Goku. Also, neither version of Superman has any means to combat Goku's agility, or the instant transmission. Superman would never be able to hit Goku in a close range fight, while every one of Goku's faster than light punches would hit Superman. And even without that advantage, Goku still has instant transmission, and could take the battle to a red sun if he wanted to, or could even just blow up all yellow suns or take Supes to otherworld, a place with no yellow suns.
@itsgangstabob Well, I did some research and I wasn't able to find a picture of Superman doing that. Either way, it doesn't matter. That smells of bad writing to me, but even if post crisis Superman has infinite strength, (an impossibility due to being powered by a finite source of radiation) his durability was shown to be significantly lower than pre crisis Superman. Post crisis was knocked out by a 50 megaton nuke at one point, which isn't even enough to destroy a planet..
@Laurcus Also, you can't say that he's, "tanked" more than Goku has. Goku has only died twice. Once was when he was extremely weak, at the start of DBZ. The next time was against Cell when he blew himself up, which I'm guessing is what you're talking about. Well, the thing you've got to realize is size doesn't equal strength in DBZ. Cell's explosion may have only been large enough to destroy one planet, but it was easily powerful enough to destroy billions. I have very clear proof for this.
@Laurcus In the very first episode of DBZ it shows first form Frieza blow up a planet with a giant energy ball. He doesn't power up for this, meaning the power level of that blast is less than his max power level of 530,000. This blast is large enough to be seen as very significant in size compared to the planet, about a fifth as big if I recall. In the Buu saga, SS2 Majin Vegeta's final explosion that he tries to kill Majin Buu with inflicts significantly less damage to the earth, since the
@Laurcus blast was fairly small by comparison. It should be obvious to anyone that first form Frieza isn't stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta. Characters in DBZ can control the area of their blasts, otherwise Vegeta would have destroyed the earth millions of times over with that blast. Also, Omega Shenron is far stronger than SS4 Goku, and he uses energy blasts against Goku that Goku eats to the face and lives. I've already established that Goku could destroy 340 trillion planets in one shot, that's
@Laurcus equivalent to destroying 34 galaxies, assuming there are roughly 10 trillion planets to a galaxy. Omega Shenron is significantly stronger than SS4 Goku, so that that 34 and make it 100 easy. So Goku has lived through blasts with the power to destroy 100 galaxies, said blasts were just small and highly focused. If pre crisis Superman had infinite strength like post crisis, then he might start to be a good match for Goku, but he's still got a long way to go, because Goku is immortal.
@Laurcus How is Goku immortal you ask? The instant transmission. You said in an earlier post that instant transmission caps at the speed of light, that's not true, and I can prove it. In the Buu saga, Goku uses instant transmission to escape from Kid Buu, who is destroying the earth. He teleports to the world of the kais. That is part of otherworld, the afterlife. It is in a different dimension, and infinite distance away from the mortal world. With that move, Goku can cross over between the
@Laurcus afterlife and the mortal universe. No matter how fast Superman goes, he could never match that. Being able to cross over at will gives Goku 3 interesting advantages. One, he functionally cannot die. If Goku dies, he can just instant transmission back to the physical realm in his spirit body. He is shown to be able to stay in the physical realm three times. Once in canon DBZ in the Buu saga. He is told he's allowed to come back to earth for a day. In the movie Bojack Unbound Goku is dead
@Laurcus but he uses instant transmission to teleport to earth and save Gohan from Bojack. In the movie Hero's Legacy Goku uses instant transmission to appear before Goku jr, also while Goku is dead. This ability to break the rules of the universe makes Goku functionally unkillable. Also, Goku could just instant transmission over to Superman, grab him, and instant transmission into otherworld. There is no yellow sun in otherworld, so Superman would slowly weaken. Goku could also instant
@Laurcus transmission over to a red sun, put up a ki shield so he doesn't die, grab it, and throw it at Superman. The red sun's radiation would weaken Superman. Goku could also just blow up all the yellow suns in the universe and go chill in other world while Superman slowly dies off. Goku has many ways to defeat Superman even if he couldn't beat him in straight up combat. And I believe I've shown that Goku can beat Superman in a straight up brawl. Post crisis Superman has the strength, but not
@Laurcus the durability. Pre crisis Superman's got nothing, as Goku is stronger than him. None of the versions of Superman have the agility or skill to match Goku. Superman is used to flying faster than light, Goku is used to dodging and punching faster than light. Big difference between speed and agility there, and Superman is never shown to have super agility. Goku also has 40+ years of martial arts experience, while Superman is only 32 years old, and has very little hand to hand training.
Okay, 200 billion solar systems. Time for more math. A solar system has an undetermined amount of stars in it. For arguement's sake, I'm going to assume 10 planets the size of earth for each solar system, and then multiply the final result by 5 to account for some solar systems that have suns or otherwise vastly bigger planets. 200 billion times 10 = 2 trillion times 5 = 10 trillion. Superman is moving 10 trillion planets. Moving a mass takes only 1% of its weight in energy according to real
@Laurcus world science. This is not my opinion, it is scientific fact. 1% Of 10 trillion is 100 billion. So he is lifting the weight of 100 billion earths. So now, how much can each fighter lift in pounds? Well, let's find out. The weight of the earth is 13 septillion 170 sextillion pounds. Energy = physical strength in DBZ. This is a fact of DBZ lore, and I can link at least 100 videos prove it. Goku can lift 13170000000000000000000000 times 340625000000000. That comes out to... I'm not even
@Laurcus sure honestly. My calculator displays 4.48603125e+39. I don't even know what that number is, but I know it's ridiculously high. Now for Superman. Same math as before, 100 billion times 13 septillion 170 sextillion. My calculator displays 1.317e+35. I don't know what the hell that means, I only know two things. The multiplier is the same for both, 13 septillion 170 sextillion. So all we really need to look at is 3 quintillion 406 quadrillion 250 trillion, vs 100 billion.
@Laurcus Now for some fun division! 3406250000000000000 / 100000000000 = 34062500. In other words, Goku is 34 million sixty two thousand times stronger than Superman. All of Goku's other attributes would be this high as well since energy increases all aspects of a fighter equally. Speed, resistance to damage, strength, energy, agility, reflexes. Do you disagree with any of my points? If so which ones. Was my math wrong? Was the test unfair?
@Laurcus Bah! I fucked up my math in the final part. We should actually be looking at 340625000000000 not 3406250000000000000 for amount of planets Goku can lift. I used his PL instead of his PL divided by 10000. My bad. Anyway, that means Goku is actually only 3406. 25 times stronger than Superman. I am sorry, I was being unfair to Superman.
@itsgangstabob I don't know what you're on about with the 400 tons thing, (it was 40 tons, not 400) and it was NOT in the Buu saga. It was in the other world tournament saga, which does not exist in the manga. It doesn't mean anything. I'll link you the video, the episode number, and the wiki page if you want. Also, you're heavily underestimating how much Goku's power grows. SS1 Goku in the Frieza saga, is NOTHING compared to SS1 Goku in the Buu saga. And he can already destroy at least 284
@Laurcus planets. Get this through your head. First form Frieza's power level was 530,000. SS1 Goku in the Frieza saga has a power level of 150,000,000. There's three important facts to take away from that. 1 Frieza did not have to use 100% of his first form's energy to blow up a planet. He didn't even need to power up, making the actual requirement to blow up a planet much lower, probably around 5000. Goku also had almost no energy when he transformed. If he was fresh, his PL would have easily
@Laurcus been in the billions. Also, Goku gets significantly stronger every time he recovers from an injury. When Vegeta recovers from his injuries at the hands of Recoome, his PL goes from 30,000 to 250,000. It goes up by 8.3 times. So let's say, every time Goku recovers from an injury, just to be conservative, his PL goes up by a factor of 5. And let's say that 150,000,000 is 15% of his power, just to make it easy on me. That would put Goku's PL at 5 billion on Yardraat. Goku usually doubles
@Laurcus his PL with each year of training. I'm going to once again estimate conservativel, and say Goku only got half that. So, 4 years of training before the android saga, = PL of 15 billion. Next we have a year of super intense training with Gohan in the room of space and time. So let's say that doubles his current PL. He's now at 30 billion. Goku gets his ass beat by Cell, he recovers after he dies. Let's say that once again makes him 5 times stronger. 150 billion.
@Laurcus Goku then undergoes intense training for the next 7 years. So 150 billion times 7 = 1 trillion 50 billion. He also turns into a SS2 and SS3. So, another times 50 for both, okay. So SS2 is 54 trillion 500 billion. SS3 is 2 quadrillion 725 trillion PL. Next Goku gets his ass beat by Kid Buu. Another times 5 power increase! 13 quadrillion 625 trillion. Now, 10 more years of light training, so another times 5 power increase. So 68 quadrillion, 125 trillion PL. Now we're at GT. I consider
@Laurcus to be non-canon, except for SS4 and the last story arc, because those were the only parts of GT made by Akira Toriyama. So I'm not going to go into the details of all Goku's GT power increases, but for each major beating he takes, increase his PL by times 5. Anyway, on to SS4. 68 quadrillion 125 trillion times 50 = 3 quintillion 406 quadrillion 250 trillion PL. So, how many planets could that destroy? I estimated 5000 earlier to destroy a planet. I'm gonna once again be conservative,
@Laurcus and estimate twice that. So now, our ultimate math problem is 3406250000000000000 / 10000. The final number is the amount of planets SS4 Goku can destroy in one max power energy blast. *Gets out his calculator* 3406250000000000000 / 10000 = 340625000000000, or 340 trillion 625 billion planets.. I'm not sure how you're gonna argue this one without sounding like a stubborn mule tbh. Everything I said is backed up facts and mathematics. Now, to see how much Superman was lifting.
@itsgangstabob When Goku blows up mountains he is holding back for the sake of the planet he's fighting on. SS1 Frieza saga Goku has enough energy to destroy a planet at least 284 times. 150,000,000 / 530,000 = 284. 13 septillion is the weight of earth. 13 septillion times 284 = 3 octillion. It's simple math really. And anyone that's seen DBZ can tell you that Goku is hundreds, or even thousands of times stronger by the end of the series as a SS3 than he is as SS1 in the Frieza saga.
@Laurcus As for speed, it's stated in the comics that pre crisis Superman travels at the speed of light. It takes 7 light minutes to go from earth to the sun. Energy waves in DBZ typically only take a few seconds to go past the sun. That means energy waves move over 100 times faster than light, which is Superman's max speed. Goku can dodge energy waves. Therefore Goku can move hundreds of times faster than light. Also, that is just flight speed, which doesn't help in a fight.
@Laurcus Goku also has faster than light agility, which Superman has NEVER displayed in any form of media. Faster than light punches/dodging is > faster than light flying in a close quarters fight.
@itsgangstabob Both of those are non canon, as GT is an overbudgeted fanfic and the other world tournament is anime filler. Also it was 40 tons, and Goku wasn't powered up anyway, so it matters even less as his physical strength is the result of his energy. Also, moving a galaxy worth of planets is comparatively easy. According to real world physics, it only requires 1% of a planet's mass in energy to move it. And don't forget that flight speed factors into energy. Pre crisis Superman lifting
@Laurcus 200 quintillion tons with brute strength alone is actually a significantly more difficult feat of strength according to actual real world science. It's the difference between pushing a semi truck in a zero g environment vs lifting it over your head in a 1 g environment. That's not my opinion, that's science. And Goku could easily destroy the universe is he wanted to, that's not a big deal. Even a weakling like Frieza or Cell could do that.
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look goku n superman will never fight each other n gokus real power level in super sayian 1 is 1 million no higher so before any of u punks try to say oh goku is stronger than anyone that is wrong every time vegeta transformed into super sayian 1 goku had to go to super sayian 2 so vegeta will always be stronger than goku
Ja1Ka11 1 day ago
look goku n superman will never fight each other n gokus real power level in super sayian 1 is 1 million no higher so before any of u punks try to say oh goku is stronger than anyone that is wrong every time vegeta transformed into super sayian 1 goku had to go to super sayian 2 so vegeta will always be stronger than goku
Ja1Ka11 1 day ago
Retarded
Kushlight88 5 days ago
Oh and it's SSJ not SS SSJ=Super SaiyaJin and SS=Super Saiyan which goku becomes on his way to Namek
7781Joe 1 week ago
There is no evil Goku or SSJ5 and superman looses against SSJ1 goku because superman has no fighting skill Goku has a power level of 1,010,000,000,000 and superman is at only 180,000,000
7781Joe 1 week ago
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i'm a fan of DC comics but i don't like that they never really determinated superman's strength and power, like what are his limits, i know he gets strength from the sun, but one time he gets betten easlly and the other no one can give him a scratch. does the anger have something to do with it?
hitibiru 1 month ago
mathematically lower power increases of training and recovering from injuries. Either way, the point of my system is to make an objective set of rules that isn't open to mine, or anyone else's interpretation or judgement. And I fully acknowledge that it's likely not 100% accurate. I expect a 50% margin for error. And I don't think the calculation can be made more accurate without compromising my objectivity.
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus What i am saying is that transformations shouldn't take part at all at the multiplier! After the final base powerlevel is calculated then it will be multiplied with 50x respectively for each ssj level.Transformations don't affect the base pl after all, they just increase it.Anyway i would like to ask what your thoughts are about fusions and their multiplier.NOTE:there are 3 kinds of fusions.namekian,technique and earrings
pant104 1 month ago
@pant104 Okay, I get what you're saying. Mathematically, it comes out to the same thing, no matter what point you add in the super saiyan power increases, so it doesn't make a difference really. As for fusions, they add an enormous amount of power. I believe the potarra earrings to be the most powerful kind of fusion. Honestly though, concerning multiplier, I've never really put a lot of time into the math behind that. Fusion did make a base form Saiyan stronger than a SS3 though, so it's big.
Laurcus 1 month ago
Take your time to put some thought into it.My personal opinion so far is that the fusion technique is the weaker of the 3 . About the namekian fusion/union. Piccolo and Nail increased their added power level at least 20x to fight frieza at roughly 1,5 million (unless you think picollo was a lot stronger) i am putting nail at 42000 and piccolo at dunno 12?.Now taking into acount that Vegito was much stronger than ssj3 i would say that potara muliply their added pl by at least 100 times
pant104 1 month ago
@pant104 Right off hand what you say makes sense. I do feel that Piccolo's PL had increased somewhat, but it doesn't change the fact that the Namekian fusion was quite an increase. I'll get back to you later when I come up with more specific calculations.
Laurcus 1 month ago
In retrospect, I greatly underestimated Goku's power level previously. That concludes my small essay, any questions or did I basically cover everything?
Laurcus 1 month ago
The mathematical average of 30 should be applied to all cases for obvious reasons eg Goku ssj vs 19 couldn't possibly be 30 times stronger than namek ssj .But it depends on wich ocations you multyply by the 30 factor.If you iclude the ssj tranformation on that power increase you should exclude it from all other cases of /train/zenkai except ssj1,2,3 and 4 or just say that the average zenkai/train is 5x or more and 50x base with each ssj lvl for more accurate pl.Correct me if i am wrong
pant104 1 month ago
@pant104 Should not be applied *
pant104 1 month ago
@pant104 I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're getting at, but I'll take a crack at it. I think what you're saying is that training and major injuries should follow a separate formula because SS1 is shown to be a times 50 increase? Well, that wouldn't neccessarily make it more accurate overall. Some power increases were smaller than times 30, but some were very close. So I feel that my way is the fairest way to do things, as the underestimated SS pl increases are meant to balance out the
Laurcus 1 month ago
According to moder science, there are roughly 2 Nonillion Earths worth of mass in the universe. That means Goku can destroy our universe. 32,187,264,463,242,998,523,576,494,149,017,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 32 Octosexagintillion times over in a single blast.
Laurcus 1 month ago
Anywho, time for some other fun facts. Using my earlier calculation of 14,600 = Earth sized planet, end of GT Goku could destroy 64,374,528,926,485,997,047,152,988,298,034,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Earth sized planets in one blast!
Laurcus 1 month ago
939,868,122,326,695,556,888,433,629,151,290,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 939 Quinoctogintillion. And my thinking behind the times 30 power increase is that it's simply the mathematical average of his recorded DBZ power increases.
Laurcus 1 month ago
202,627,757,650,948,813,350,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 202.6 Sexvigintillion. And now, for Goku's final power level. This is SS4 Goku's PL, post 100 year timeskip.
Laurcus 1 month ago
the major milestones in the comments. FPSS Goku vs Cell. 98,415,000,000,000,000,000. 98.4 quintillion. SS3 Goku vs Fat Buu. 17,433,922,005,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 17.4 Quattuordecillion. SS3 Goku post 10 year timeskip. This is his final power level in DBZ. 30,883,669,814,197,350,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 30.8 Unvgintillion. SS4 Goku vs Baby.
Laurcus 1 month ago
My system is not designed to be perfect. It is however designed to be accurate to within at least a 50% margin for error, as that's as perfect as I can get it without help from Akira Toriyama himself. Anywho, from there I basically just got out a calculator, put in 150 mil, and multiplied by 30 for every major power increasing event. This naturally required rewatching all of DBZ/GT to make sure I missed nothing in regards to major injuries. I have the entire process recorded, but will only post
Laurcus 1 month ago
assume that power increases at the same rate as a percent all the way till the end of GT. Once I had that established, the process was fairly simple. Looking at Goku's power increases from the Saiyan-Frieza sagas, I believe his power typically increased by a factor of 30 for every significant period of training, every major injury he recovered from, and every transformation he went through. Some were bigger, such as Super Saiyan, and some were smaller, such as his training under King Kai.
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus You are right the zenkai boosts should be the same during all dbz and Gt but that didn't quite apply to db did it?Anyway i just said that because the zenkai boost in later sagas didn't make such of an obvious difference in comparison with the namek saga.What is your thinking behind the factor of 30 increase exactly?
pant104 1 month ago
Ginyu? The event that made his PL go from 90k to 3mil? Also, the idea that power increases show get smaller after Super Saiyan is silly. Such a thing isn't even hinted at in any form of DBZ media, be it manga, anime, anime filler, movies, or even video games. In fact the closest thing we have that even resembles evidence one way or another are DBZ RPG-like games that involve leveling up, and in those power increases normally at all points. There's no evidence one way or another, so I have to
Laurcus 1 month ago
planet, you need a power level of roughly 14,600. This lines up very nicely with Vegeta having a power level of 18,000 and threatening to destroy the Earth. Plus him destroying Arlia in filler, it's too perfect. The next thing I wanted to determine, is how fast power levels should increase. Before, I assumed that SS2 isn't hundreds of times stronger than SS1 because it just seemed implausible to me. That's dumb. Was SS2 portrayed as a smaller increase than Goku recovering from his fight with
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus his strength should effortlessly range into the multi-megaton level at the very least. Arguably the strongest being on the planet and one of the strongest beings in the Universe., he is so strong that he is capable of ripping off the arm of the likes of Darkseid ],he has been able to move the planet Earth away from the Sun while a powerful Cosmic Entity, Starbreaker was pushing it toward the Sun, he is so strong he possesses the strength necessary shatter entire worlds
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@Laurcus Oh look he can shattter planets with his bare hands frieza had to use core explosion LEARN U NOOB.Superman's body is nigh-invulnerableHe has entered the Sun and emerged completely unharmed[329], he has even traveled through Krypton's Red Sun and survived physically unharmed, even though Red Solar Radiation depowers and weakens him
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@Laurcus Im not done u spammed so much stupidity He has been seen to skirt the photosphere of the sun (100,000,000 degrees F). Superman has even been shown withstanding Darkseid's Omega Beams, a feat that was previously considered impossible.AND HOW MANY TIMES HAS THE SUN IN DBZ KILLED SOME ONE SUPS FUCKING CAN FLY IN IT FOR FUN.
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@TinyTitian Most likely his greatest feat of durability recently, is that he was recently able to withstand the destructive power of a Sun exploding and going Nova (A result of Brainiac’s technology.) at point blank range to the planet he was on (Which was eradicated by the force of the explosion with the rest of the surrounding system.) and survived without any visible physical damage
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@Laurcus Superman can move at speeds much faster than light and is one of the fastest beings in the Universe. Superman can match most other speedsters in their ability to perform super fast movements, reactions, and processes. he was seen running steadily alongside the flash at a speed of 2000 miles per second (mach 9350) . Superman is so fast that he is even able to vibrate through blows
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@Laurcus In the extreme event that Superman is harmed, either by an cosmic entity or ni omnipotent matching his own strength or other occurence, he has been shown to have the ability to heal almost instantaneously from any wound,
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@Laurcus ALSO U FUCKING RETARDED NOOB DC SYSTEMS DOESENT HAVE A CLASS 1000 DIPS SHIT IT JUST SAYS 100+ for stronger beings meaing it just continuously goes up,
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@Laurcus Class 100+; the exact magnitude of Superman's strength is unknown but he has demonstrated that his strength is so vast, that he is capable of even moving an object as large as a planet. This ability to move large objects suggests that his apparent strength may be partially psionic in nature due to the laws of physics which place clear limits on a human-sized object moving a planetary-sized one.
TinyTitian 1 month ago
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power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus U watched and read sups comics and think he would loose still and thinks he cant even destroy a planet, WHAT DRUGS ARE U ON Im just gona have to type out all his powers cause you must not have ever seen sups fight cosmic entitys and ni omnipotents, those are damn near gods who can bend reality and the fabric of time btw and kill 98% of existince by wishing it away with little effort.
TinyTitian 1 month ago
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with raw facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
Laurcus 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with raw facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
Laurcus 1 month ago
power level as accurately as possible. I decided the best way to do this is to start from scratch, and throw out everything of my own opinion, and stick with raw facts as best I can. The first thing I wanted to lock down is how much power does it actually take to destroy an earth sized planet. Master Roshi had a power level of 180 when he destroyed the moon in Dragonball. The Earth is roughly 83 times larger than the moon according to real world science. This means to destroy an Earth sized
Laurcus 1 month ago
fighting is without a doubt lower than amazing level in the Marvel system. Goku would have had amazing level fighting, which is classified as the maximum skill an ordinary human can attain, before he completed his training under Master Roshi in Dragonball. The idea that PC Superman can contend with any version of Goku post Ginyu saga is simply ludicrous. Okay, now for math concerning Goku's power level, this is the complicated stuff. A while ago, I decided that I wanted to try and guess Goku's
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus Although i prefer Dbz i am by no means a superman hater jus for the record.I agree 100% with what you say.People tend to overestimate superman's capabilities and fail to see the excessive increases of the powerlevels over the sagas.I would also say given the facts provided that frieza 1rst form is far superior than a class 3000 being.But please continue! You can pm if you find it hard to post here btw
pant104 1 month ago
pre crisis Superman without a doubt has class 1000 strength. I will argue to the death that in DBZ energy = strength. With a PL of 530,000 first form Frieza destroys a planet. That means he is minimum a class 3000 being, likely putting Superman's level of strength somewhere around Saiyan/Namek saga levels. There is also a point where PC Superman loses his powers. During this time he has a boxing match with Muhammed Ali, which he loses without landing a single hit. This shows that his skill in
Laurcus 1 month ago
One very damning piece of evidence is that pre crisis fails to move a planet, with the help of Green Lantern. He has moved moons before though, this allows me to assign a very specific value to his strength. This value comes from the marvel superheroes system, though I feel it applies perfectly in this situation. The ability to move a moon is class 1000 on the universal power table on classicmarvelforever(dot)com. The next highest rank is class 3000, the strength to move a planet. Therefore,
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus Da fuck were you reading golden age sups, pre crisis shit and post crisis and new modern sups hes op again btw can easily move planets, Shit he moved eath wile a cosmic entity was dragging it to earth,And no marvel and dc are 2 very different universes with different laws Marvel has a ruleing power source,Life energy were all heros get there power from dc doesent.Plus again He went blow to blow with the anti monitor who was going around destroying dimensions, Entire existences
TinyTitian 1 month ago
@TinyTitian That's quite the novel you've written there. I see you wish for no degree of civility though, as you've clearly shown me none with your blatant insults. So I will keep my response short and sweet. Pre crisis Superman has both shown and stated several limits. He has stated that he is able to destroy planets, but not in a single blow. It would take some time and effort. There was also one incident where he tried to move Earth, with the help of Green Lantern. They failed.
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus I can understand your confusion of thinking why supermans weak tho cause unlike other cosmic entity's he relys on punching alot, Even tho he can beat darkseid Dark seids powers over mortals and galatic enemies make him seem alot cooler and godlike that sups is,I have always felt aside from moving real heavy shit and going blow to blow with the best of em sups needs a more cool power reason why I like goku more. Cause sups is punch punch punch,fly at light speed, use heat ray
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian I will admit one thing. I have very little patience for trolls, which you obviously are judging by the inflammatory way you started this little "conversation". Superman can only move planets when he removes at least one limiter. Oh and for the record, you're wrong, there aren't two pre crisis Superman's there's 3. Well, there's a lot more if you want to count alternate versions, but there's 3 main ones. Golden age, Bronze age, and Silver age. We have both been talking about Silver.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian Instead of analyzing and picking apart your wall of text, I will try to make this somewhat brief. Under the Marvel rule system, Superman with all limiters removed, would be a class 3000 being. Which is damn powerful, 2nd strongest power rating there is. Class 3000 is equal to a power level of 14,600 though, the ability to destroy a planet. He would be at the higher end of class 3000, as he's capable of lifting multiple planets with all limiters removed. SS1 Frieza saga Goku is over
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian 10000 times stronger than that though. But that's not even what's being debated. What's being debated is Goku at his strongest. That means Super Saiyan 4, post godhood. Goku becomes a truly immortal being at the end of GT, and is a lot stronger than SS1. The Big Bang is 2 Nonillion Earth's worth of mass, by real world science. Destroying the universe would be trivial for the final version of Goku. By my calculations, he could literally do it 32 Octosexagintillion times over.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus When did freiza lift a planet.Moving a planet and destroying one is 2 diff things u know.It takes power to do things purely with will to move a planet cause if done with pure strnght the planet would crumble. Destroying a planet and moving one is 2 diff things. Well at least your starting to realize sups is stronger Ill stop here cause theese arguments usually dont include ss4 since thats not cannnon to the manga, Goku is usually ss3 I do not know what a ss4 at full power
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian In DBZ energy = strength. That is an undeniable fact of the setting, despite it being somewhat laws of physics breaking. Without that simple fact, first form Fireza is the strongest being in all of DBZ, with a power level of 530k, since he technically has the largest energy blast when he blows up planet Vegeta. Even as a SS3, Goku could still destroy the universe easily.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus is fully capable of so ill just say if ss4 is a huge multiplyer Its a tie since goku has to kill his enemies and cosmic entitys and above need to be destroyed.Ill say this its fully agreed up on that sups can beat ss3 idk about ss4 cause usually hes not allowed for not being part of the manga.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian For one, I'll tell you straight up I'm not a manga purist. I consider the anime to be just as canonical, both were after all made by the same man, Akira Toriyama. And both the DBZ and DBGT animes have his full support and approval. And yes, Goku has been killed in the past, but only by beings of equal or greater power, such as Cell. Also, Goku is in the last episode of GT. He appears at the world tournament 100 years later, looking like he's 30. He then appears in the followup movie
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus I will admit ss4 is a nice and needed power up in terms of feets and definently puts him on a cosmic entitys level of speed and offensive power.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian And that's not a random number pulled out of my ass. I have all the math for it on notepad. Anywho, Superman destroying the universe would be trivial. Goku could just instant transmission to the afterlife. Not to mention he's immortal, immortal. No bullshit about it, no weaknesses, no stipulations. He's a flat out ageless, perfect, god being. Even before that, destroying a sun was insignificant. Broly destroys a galaxy with one hand. Oh, and for the record, no Broly was not killed
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus And again destroying a galaxy is part of being a galatic entity but what is such a feet to a cosmic entity like superman, Also goku has been killed so I dont know how hes immortal and he wasnt shown in the last ep of gt, His aged could be changed by the dragon, Sups does not age shit he goes around with fake grey hair to feel normal its kinda depressing its like a human liveing in a world of ants.And again COsmic entitys can destroy, When your destroyed u dont go to the after
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus U cease to exist, But again Idk SS4 full power So Im just going to assume it would make goku enuff to at least fight sups to a standstill, Cause theres a huge gap between ss3 and sups, Again dealing with dbz is a touchy subject there either completely underrated or completely over rated in arguments
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian Dragonball GT a Hero's legacy, where he quite clearly displays multiple god powers, including altering reality like the dragonballs and being omnipresent. Either way, I disagree. I think SS3 Goku with the 15 years of training he undergoes at the end of DBZ would be more than a match for Superman, even with all limiters removed. Remember, Goku gets about 30 times stronger for every year he trains, and powering up was already starting to damage not the universe, but reality itself late
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian in the Buu saga. Make no mistake though, Buu saga SS3 Goku could still destroy the entire universe billions of times over if he wanted to. This power is simply never shown because it would be ridiculous for a peaceful person like Goku to murder everyone in the universe.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus Ya idk were you get theese numbers from you dont do theese debates much do u. SS3 goku coulnt do that, Kid buu couldnt either It took a while for kid buu to do the destroying he did when he took out the 3 surpeme ki. Also ss4 goku with effort was able to lift a whole half of a city back into place. Punched Super 17 across the world with effort. Ill give him credit tho cause again moveing large objects like that also take your mind to move it not just muscle.Cause with just
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian musle said city or planet will crumble.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian by the sun, neither was Cooler. I was baiting you. It was actually the kamehameha's that killed them. It was basically a hammer and anvil effect, with the kamehamehas being the hammer and the sun being the anvil. The heat of the sun itself was insignificant.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus Btw i was being rude cause of your improper use of power scaleing.owerscaling is often used for the Dragon Ball series to give out a higher given precedent of strength from far weaker fighters in the series.As you can see, powerscaling usually falls into the realm of speculation. While it can sometimes give you a general idea of the power of a character, it is rarely reliable as concrete evidence in a debate.Is often abused like hell by many faggots. Note not my words.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian That's no excuse for being rude. And actually, I engage in these sorts of "debates" rather frequently. I think my use of power scaling is quite correct. And as for where I get these numbers from, I explained that already before your first post. Which tells me you either have very poor reading comprehension, or you simply didn't read all of my posts. You likely read a few lines, and then posted in a fit of rage. And Kid Buu's limits are never shown concerning what he can destroy.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian In DBZ, power and area of effect are not the same thing. Kid Buu takes his sweet time with destroying the universe because that's what Kid Buu does. That doesn't mean he's incapable of simply unleashing more energy and devastating the universe with ease. There would simply be no point in doing so. If you wish, I will send you my entire notepad in a private message. It contains all of the math I've done on the subject in its most raw form.
Laurcus 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus i would be interested in seeing that math just for the hell of it
hunterprime007 2 days ago
@TinyTitian That means he is incapable of moving 13 septillion pounds. Also, I never claimed Marvel and DC are the same thing. Marvel superheroes is simply a basic power scaling system that can be applied to anything from DC, to Final Fantasy, to DBZ, to real life. It's a precise measurement system. Many of Superman's greatest feats were done with outside aid, such as sneezing and moving a galaxy. I will simply leave you with this. Youtube search pre crisis superman limitations.
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus btw you have little grasp of how powerful the sun is, Look up a super nova, again sups survive being in one of theese and look up how much dmg it can cause those things can wipe out a entire galaxy, in real life or fake life
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@TinyTitian Oh, and one last thing. The explosion of a sun is utterly insignificant at the levels of power we're talking about. No character in DBZ has ever been killed by the sun. Not Cooler, not Broly, not Baby. And Frieza didn't need to destroy the core of a planet to blow it up, he chose to out of fear, a fact that Goku calls him on 2 episodes later.
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus Ok just to inform you theres two pre crisis supermans, The one that cant move a planet is not the one im talking about,And broly and cooler did get harmed by the sun in brolys case he died, Earth 2 I think the older superman moved structures bigger than earth and the space surrounding us and the moon this is in comics and dc data base your gona argue with that you know little about superman admit it.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus If super faught imperiax who can do this just one of his feets,Imperiex arrives at Almerac, the home of Maxima, and not only destroys Almerac but "hollows" the whole GALAXY. After this, the survivors of the dead worlds, along with Earth, Apokolips and Brainiac 13's new Warworld, form a coalition, with Darkseid as its commander, to fight against Imperiex Prime and his probes. Super kills him By pushing his entire planet into a alt dinmension, He had to do this cause
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus If imperiax died in there dimension it woulda caused a second big bang, That means all EXISTENCE would be fucked. So not only could superman kill goku if he wanted he could just toss gokus planet into the sun literally look on dc database which is official of sups powers, Sups could then take off all his limiters then blow up the sun to make sure hes finnished. Goku has no way to beat sups hes stronger and faster period.Actually Let sups kill he can just snipe goku from orbit
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus And btw tho we call super man mortal,Hes mortal and not mortal at the same time.Basicly in comic disputes we clasify people in power levels, OMNIPOTENT is first has complete controll of all existence,all seeing all knowing etc this is god like slayers lord of nightmares celestials in slayers.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus I ment celestial s in marvel I wrote slayers twice lol, Second to omnipotents is ni omnipotents Have one existence No matter how many dimmensions there are,there actions effect all existence if the detroy something its the entire of said diminsion then they move on or guard it, Examples of this The Anti monitor destroyed mutlipe dimensions in his reign turned em to nothingness, Another is unicron and primus unicron destroyed the universe and primus rebuilt it as he slept.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus After his you have cosmic entity as dc fans call em,or sky fathers,I wish goku was one actualy hes not, Even the gay ass fagot sialor galaxy is one of theese she can destroy planets by pointing at em, Superman makes this list for being able to beat up cosmic entitys who get there powers from the cosmic like dark seid when sups does not hold back hes stronger and can even defy laws like survived darkstars omega effect(his eye beems) There supposed to litteraly be a devine attack
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
@Laurcus After this you have really really powerful mortals or galatic entitys planet obliteraters they destroy planets and can take out galaxies.With little effort. Unlike cosmic entitys they age, feel pain and can be visibly bruised cut or kill,cant reach light speed, They kill there enemies not destroy, Most powerful example of this Goku and Galvatron.
TinyTitian 4 weeks ago
I have come to the conclusion that pre crisis Superman is significantly weaker than many people make him out to be. Many of his seemingly incredible feats of strength are only casually stated, or are done with outside help. Such as taking a punch with the power of 100 galaxies, and sneezing and blowing around galaxies. Those feats of strength are then contradicted repeatedly by other failures. Two of these failures have allowed me to classify his physical strength and fighting ability.
Laurcus 1 month ago
Goku casually
Luffyftw423 1 month ago
Superman is kind of a cheater but he is supposed to be powerful if you don't like it dbz fans don't ever put someone like superman to fight goku, make goku fight the thing or hulk
lHsienko 1 month ago
Continuing... I'm in for goku, not because he is better than superman or could win, but because he is a good role model and a better character, with better explanations, especially on his training. The way Goku was made is pure genius, unlike superman, who writers make up so many conflicts of his powers which comes to questioning. Superman maybe powerful only because he cheats from lousy writers, but he'll never have much respect as Goku. For Goku is a real character that "earns" his powers.
Fumontaindew2012 1 month ago
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Fumontaindew2012 1 month ago
superman... a conflicting character that cheat on everything. People made him up in the most ridiculous ways that seem quite VERY stupid. Like superman escaping a black hole? nothing in existence can escape a black hole. I know for a fact that superman has atoms if he possess laser vision and if he has atoms, a black hole would rip every atom that he has in his body. Basically, he is a bad character that breaks to many rules. And The writers are probably children.
Fumontaindew2012 1 month ago
Wow.... pero que talento para tal baska.
HolaLalito 2 months ago
uhmmm..ss4 is the ultimate form already but ss5 doesnt exist!
Israelroy 2 months ago
goku will eventually rape superman, even though the pre crisis one, how??? simple. Since superman's weaknesses are kryptonite and sun, goku will use his kamehameha to destroy the sun then bye bye superman hahaha
jeremyunderground41 2 months ago
@jeremyunderground41 That would kill everyone on the planet.
DevilMayhem666 2 months ago
@DevilMayhem666 yeah but there are alternative ways to defeat superman without killing everyone on earth by destroying the sun
jeremyunderground41 2 months ago
does anybody know the song from 0:01- 0:10
rjd6309 2 months ago
@rjd6309 I believe it's the opening theme from the SNES game Spiderman and the X-men: Arcades Revenge. /watch?v=J2wanOhDq4o
Random101012 2 months ago
mierda
DrinkUrPruneJuice77 3 months ago
bacanas las imagenes le sale com la mucica
elmejorps2 3 months ago
que nivel de frikismo tan increible
tiene zzober
alfonso092pain 3 months ago
chido al final
megawichomaniac 3 months ago
SS= SUPER SYAN
lipching8means 3 months ago
@lipching8means SS is = Super Saiyan and SSJ is = Super Saiya Jin.
003animetal 1 month ago
i don't think so....superman will never win to GUKO!!!!
lipching8means 3 months ago 10
@lipching8means who's guko?
dagga70 2 months ago
Does anyone know the song at 0:35?
socco90 3 months ago
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goku normal podria cachetear a sumerman sin prolblemas
JohanChk 3 months ago
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JohanChk 3 months ago
wtf are all those SS's for, this isn't a Nazi show.
SSJ not "SS".
FilMarck 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@FilMarck shut the fuck up nigger
supermandicksucker 3 months ago
The fastest Goku has ever gone is the speed of light (instant transmission). In Death of New Gods #1 it took Superman less than 4 minutes to reach Metropolis on Earth from the Vega system in space. The Vega system is located 25.3 light years away from the Earth. That makes Superman’s travel speed at about 262.8 billion times the speed of light. This means that Superman is 262.8 billion times faster than Goku. And that's not even Superman's top speed.
darkassassin611 4 months ago
@darkassassin611 ya right a man which wear his under wear on his clothes
Bigman123492 4 months ago
@Bigman123492 Sigh . . . . Really? That's the best response you can come up with? Come on man...
darkassassin611 4 months ago
@darkassassin611
I take your explanation and raise you some physics!
JDSlidemaster 4 months ago
@darkassassin611 Taking it a little too seriously arent you?
scabab90 4 months ago
@scabab90 lol
darkassassin611 4 months ago
@darkassassin611 Old comment I know but was that current or pre-crisis??? Im going for supes and I am having another debate with someone and I would like to know this.
heretowatchvideos100 3 months ago
@heretowatchvideos100 Current.
darkassassin611 3 months ago
Da hora, mano!!
rodolfocroliveira 4 months ago
omg omg its its its!!!!!!! sooo.!!!!!!@ bad.
weeareyoungmoney 4 months ago
easy if superman wanted to punch goku can easily dash away if he wanted to fire eye beam goku will not even feel it i mean he survived of broly thing 2-if superman had the chance to punch goku ,goku would use instant transmission and go behind superman and fire a kemhameha easy goku wins
spinohorn1899 4 months ago 4
@spinohorn1899 Well People must not know how op super man is,Second fastest being in existence to flash the fastest one only.Hes so fast he can go threw time with his speed and probly kill goku as a infant,But He can take blows from ni omnipotents mutli dimensional gods beat the anti monitor beat imperiax,Never displayed to be truly hurt never bleeds his clothes just get missed up he has a super dinse molecular structure. Goku can be harmed sups well cant,Super man can move planet
TinyTitian 1 month ago in playlist comics
@spinohorn1899 Like there paper thin,and btw sups holds backs, At full power his eye beams could take out planets he one When just taking off one of his mental blocks that hold him backs, Made a hurricane that was cutting darkseid up, Spammed Light speed punches,And Eye beams wile flying aroung at light speed, Even on anime power scaling forums sups has more strength after all goku is still a mortal super man is referred to a new god of earth, And no not god as in omnipotent.
TinyTitian 1 month ago in playlist comics
superman weaknesses a green rock red lite never kills his enemies gokus weaknesses?
seccfiend 4 months ago
goku can fuck superman up in just kaioken, super saiyan is over kill and and 2nd and 3rd level is just fucked up.
stnsfnst 4 months ago
Oh yeah? And then what? SS78 with pink-green-orange hair with muscles so big he wouldnt fit into a fucking street? Geez...
livkivi 4 months ago
yo go on breaking benjamin vids they talkin shit about how goku would beat superman go there an troll their asses
supermandicksucker 4 months ago
Goku can fucking destroy the entire earth in a single blow. Also run to some kryptonite...
tigui49 4 months ago
UHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM,,,,, SUPERMAN WOULD TOTALLY OWN GOKU DUDE! no contest........
hotpockets222 4 months ago
GOKU WOULD KICK HIS ASS!
xXSlyKidXx 4 months ago
All Goku would have to do is keep him away from a yellow-sun and in time superman's strength would fade away (remember, Goku can use instant transmission to take the fight any where he wants & he can absorb the life force of any planet or people and use it to increase his own Powers).
TheJoker1mono 5 months ago
in the comics these people kicked the crap out of "The Man of Steel" just imagine Goku setting his eye's on Superman: Mongul Superboy Prime Batman Darkside The Anti-Monitor Doomsday Lex Luthor & Black Adam. Only a few of these guys can match His raw power that is given to him by a yellow-sun which can be taken care of by instant transmission. but what about the rest of that list? the rest of the list, hand-to-hand combat fighters, magic, strategist or all 3. Goku has ALL 3 plus Raw Power.
TheJoker1mono 5 months ago 2
@itsgangstabob nope =)
jasenrooks2001 5 months ago
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Hey everybody! I have released my new album 'Progenitor' which has electronic music inspired by great series such as Dragon Ball Z. You can check it out and download it for free on my youtube channel if you're interested!
ORTmusic 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob Well, lemme take a stab at it. Right off hand 4.8 billion seems closer. And I've actually been wanting to make youtube videos for a while now, but I currently have zero recording equipment. I just don't think SS2 Gohan could have been 390 times stronger than 100% final form Frieza. I guess it depends on if you think higher super saiyan forms multiply an equivalent amount of total power, or base power though. I'd have to think about to be honest.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Your perception of the Dbz universe is superb sir!Although i am pretty sure that the zenkai boost varies from a small percentage increase like vegeta 24000 to 28000 or goku(without kaioken) 90000 to roughly 3000000 to as big as the one you mentioned.Maybe 5x is a little too much of a multyplier for post ssj boosts or perhaps you are right
pant104 1 month ago
@pant104 Thank you for the compliment sir. Since my posts 3 months ago I have greatly refined my DBZ theorycrafting and mathematics. Through careful observation and much thought I have determined I was wrong about many things, and correct about certain other things. If you'd like to hear my current thoughts on the subject I'd be happy to post them.
Laurcus 1 month ago
@Laurcus I would love to! I hope you didn't change your mind enough to consider superman is a match for Goku or something!:p But i am interested to hear your thoughts anyway!
pant104 1 month ago
@pant104 Alrighty then, before I begin, know that this will be a small essay, and I won't be posting my entire mathematical process in the comments. Though if you, or anyone else is interested in that, I will glady PM it to you. It's just that it's over 10k characters, and I don't wish to make that many posts, because the 500 character limit is annoying and I'm already approaching it for this comment. Okay, first off, I want to start with Superman. I did quite a bit of research on his powers and
Laurcus 1 month ago
how this shit got 6kk hits?!
killeryaner 5 months ago
Somewhere, someone has to guess at how strong Goku is, or this debate is pointless. If you don't know exactly how strong Goku is, then who's to say who would win between him and Superman? At least when I guess, I base his power increases off averages from the saiyan and Frieza sagas, and then calculate in percent how much power Goku should gain.
Laurcus 5 months ago
Also, Omega Shenron was shown to have similar fighting skill and agility compared to the super saiyans. Superman has NEVER displayed super agility as a power, every DBZ/DBGT villain has. Omega Shenron wasn't winning on physical strength alone.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob Omega Shenron was not stated to be able to destroy only one galaxy. Every living thing gives off a ki signal, a sun is just as alive as a blade of grass, only much bigger. Any other problem can be solved by using the black star dragonballs. I'm not going to bring character motivation into an x vs y battle, because then neither character would fight. Superman would never fight Goku because both are good characters. They'd be much more likely to work together.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob Pre crisis being stronger than post crisis is a logical fallacy. Either the feat of lifting the book, or the dc database is wrong. You can't be stronger than infinite. And Omega Shenron never tries to destroy more than one galaxy, and I believe I've mathematically shown that SS4 Goku could destroy 34 galaxies in one kamehameha. Besides, it would be easy for Goku to destroy all the yellow suns in the galaxy, one at a time using instant transmission and the kamehameha wave.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob I know you're saying that pre crisis has "tanked" more than Goku. What I'm saying is that that doesn't matter. Post crisis is the one with the supposedly infinite strength, (according to your own words) all you've said of pre crisis is that he's taken bigger hits than Goku. Goku has taken hits that have enough power to destroy 100 galaxies, so at best they're equal there. Post crisis doesn't even matter, therefore the whole book think is a moot point. Also, the book thing is
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus a logical fallacy. If the book had infinite weight, then Ultraman couldn't have lifted it, even with infinite strength. Infinite vs infinite is just another way of saying unstoppable force vs immovable object, which has been scientifically proven to be a false concept because both cannot exist in the same universe, or both would shatter upon contact. So that comes down to ridiculously terrible writing. Either way, it doesn't matter. Post crisis is useless, and pre crisis isn't as
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus strong as Goku. Also, neither version of Superman has any means to combat Goku's agility, or the instant transmission. Superman would never be able to hit Goku in a close range fight, while every one of Goku's faster than light punches would hit Superman. And even without that advantage, Goku still has instant transmission, and could take the battle to a red sun if he wanted to, or could even just blow up all yellow suns or take Supes to otherworld, a place with no yellow suns.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Goku has literally dozens of ways to kill any version of Superman. I have yet to hear of even one way that Superman could kill Goku.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob Well, I did some research and I wasn't able to find a picture of Superman doing that. Either way, it doesn't matter. That smells of bad writing to me, but even if post crisis Superman has infinite strength, (an impossibility due to being powered by a finite source of radiation) his durability was shown to be significantly lower than pre crisis Superman. Post crisis was knocked out by a 50 megaton nuke at one point, which isn't even enough to destroy a planet..
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Also, you can't say that he's, "tanked" more than Goku has. Goku has only died twice. Once was when he was extremely weak, at the start of DBZ. The next time was against Cell when he blew himself up, which I'm guessing is what you're talking about. Well, the thing you've got to realize is size doesn't equal strength in DBZ. Cell's explosion may have only been large enough to destroy one planet, but it was easily powerful enough to destroy billions. I have very clear proof for this.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus In the very first episode of DBZ it shows first form Frieza blow up a planet with a giant energy ball. He doesn't power up for this, meaning the power level of that blast is less than his max power level of 530,000. This blast is large enough to be seen as very significant in size compared to the planet, about a fifth as big if I recall. In the Buu saga, SS2 Majin Vegeta's final explosion that he tries to kill Majin Buu with inflicts significantly less damage to the earth, since the
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus blast was fairly small by comparison. It should be obvious to anyone that first form Frieza isn't stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta. Characters in DBZ can control the area of their blasts, otherwise Vegeta would have destroyed the earth millions of times over with that blast. Also, Omega Shenron is far stronger than SS4 Goku, and he uses energy blasts against Goku that Goku eats to the face and lives. I've already established that Goku could destroy 340 trillion planets in one shot, that's
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus equivalent to destroying 34 galaxies, assuming there are roughly 10 trillion planets to a galaxy. Omega Shenron is significantly stronger than SS4 Goku, so that that 34 and make it 100 easy. So Goku has lived through blasts with the power to destroy 100 galaxies, said blasts were just small and highly focused. If pre crisis Superman had infinite strength like post crisis, then he might start to be a good match for Goku, but he's still got a long way to go, because Goku is immortal.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus How is Goku immortal you ask? The instant transmission. You said in an earlier post that instant transmission caps at the speed of light, that's not true, and I can prove it. In the Buu saga, Goku uses instant transmission to escape from Kid Buu, who is destroying the earth. He teleports to the world of the kais. That is part of otherworld, the afterlife. It is in a different dimension, and infinite distance away from the mortal world. With that move, Goku can cross over between the
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus afterlife and the mortal universe. No matter how fast Superman goes, he could never match that. Being able to cross over at will gives Goku 3 interesting advantages. One, he functionally cannot die. If Goku dies, he can just instant transmission back to the physical realm in his spirit body. He is shown to be able to stay in the physical realm three times. Once in canon DBZ in the Buu saga. He is told he's allowed to come back to earth for a day. In the movie Bojack Unbound Goku is dead
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus but he uses instant transmission to teleport to earth and save Gohan from Bojack. In the movie Hero's Legacy Goku uses instant transmission to appear before Goku jr, also while Goku is dead. This ability to break the rules of the universe makes Goku functionally unkillable. Also, Goku could just instant transmission over to Superman, grab him, and instant transmission into otherworld. There is no yellow sun in otherworld, so Superman would slowly weaken. Goku could also instant
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus transmission over to a red sun, put up a ki shield so he doesn't die, grab it, and throw it at Superman. The red sun's radiation would weaken Superman. Goku could also just blow up all the yellow suns in the universe and go chill in other world while Superman slowly dies off. Goku has many ways to defeat Superman even if he couldn't beat him in straight up combat. And I believe I've shown that Goku can beat Superman in a straight up brawl. Post crisis Superman has the strength, but not
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus the durability. Pre crisis Superman's got nothing, as Goku is stronger than him. None of the versions of Superman have the agility or skill to match Goku. Superman is used to flying faster than light, Goku is used to dodging and punching faster than light. Big difference between speed and agility there, and Superman is never shown to have super agility. Goku also has 40+ years of martial arts experience, while Superman is only 32 years old, and has very little hand to hand training.
Laurcus 5 months ago
Okay, 200 billion solar systems. Time for more math. A solar system has an undetermined amount of stars in it. For arguement's sake, I'm going to assume 10 planets the size of earth for each solar system, and then multiply the final result by 5 to account for some solar systems that have suns or otherwise vastly bigger planets. 200 billion times 10 = 2 trillion times 5 = 10 trillion. Superman is moving 10 trillion planets. Moving a mass takes only 1% of its weight in energy according to real
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus world science. This is not my opinion, it is scientific fact. 1% Of 10 trillion is 100 billion. So he is lifting the weight of 100 billion earths. So now, how much can each fighter lift in pounds? Well, let's find out. The weight of the earth is 13 septillion 170 sextillion pounds. Energy = physical strength in DBZ. This is a fact of DBZ lore, and I can link at least 100 videos prove it. Goku can lift 13170000000000000000000000 times 340625000000000. That comes out to... I'm not even
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus sure honestly. My calculator displays 4.48603125e+39. I don't even know what that number is, but I know it's ridiculously high. Now for Superman. Same math as before, 100 billion times 13 septillion 170 sextillion. My calculator displays 1.317e+35. I don't know what the hell that means, I only know two things. The multiplier is the same for both, 13 septillion 170 sextillion. So all we really need to look at is 3 quintillion 406 quadrillion 250 trillion, vs 100 billion.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Now for some fun division! 3406250000000000000 / 100000000000 = 34062500. In other words, Goku is 34 million sixty two thousand times stronger than Superman. All of Goku's other attributes would be this high as well since energy increases all aspects of a fighter equally. Speed, resistance to damage, strength, energy, agility, reflexes. Do you disagree with any of my points? If so which ones. Was my math wrong? Was the test unfair?
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Bah! I fucked up my math in the final part. We should actually be looking at 340625000000000 not 3406250000000000000 for amount of planets Goku can lift. I used his PL instead of his PL divided by 10000. My bad. Anyway, that means Goku is actually only 3406. 25 times stronger than Superman. I am sorry, I was being unfair to Superman.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob I don't know what you're on about with the 400 tons thing, (it was 40 tons, not 400) and it was NOT in the Buu saga. It was in the other world tournament saga, which does not exist in the manga. It doesn't mean anything. I'll link you the video, the episode number, and the wiki page if you want. Also, you're heavily underestimating how much Goku's power grows. SS1 Goku in the Frieza saga, is NOTHING compared to SS1 Goku in the Buu saga. And he can already destroy at least 284
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus planets. Get this through your head. First form Frieza's power level was 530,000. SS1 Goku in the Frieza saga has a power level of 150,000,000. There's three important facts to take away from that. 1 Frieza did not have to use 100% of his first form's energy to blow up a planet. He didn't even need to power up, making the actual requirement to blow up a planet much lower, probably around 5000. Goku also had almost no energy when he transformed. If he was fresh, his PL would have easily
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus been in the billions. Also, Goku gets significantly stronger every time he recovers from an injury. When Vegeta recovers from his injuries at the hands of Recoome, his PL goes from 30,000 to 250,000. It goes up by 8.3 times. So let's say, every time Goku recovers from an injury, just to be conservative, his PL goes up by a factor of 5. And let's say that 150,000,000 is 15% of his power, just to make it easy on me. That would put Goku's PL at 5 billion on Yardraat. Goku usually doubles
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus his PL with each year of training. I'm going to once again estimate conservativel, and say Goku only got half that. So, 4 years of training before the android saga, = PL of 15 billion. Next we have a year of super intense training with Gohan in the room of space and time. So let's say that doubles his current PL. He's now at 30 billion. Goku gets his ass beat by Cell, he recovers after he dies. Let's say that once again makes him 5 times stronger. 150 billion.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Goku then undergoes intense training for the next 7 years. So 150 billion times 7 = 1 trillion 50 billion. He also turns into a SS2 and SS3. So, another times 50 for both, okay. So SS2 is 54 trillion 500 billion. SS3 is 2 quadrillion 725 trillion PL. Next Goku gets his ass beat by Kid Buu. Another times 5 power increase! 13 quadrillion 625 trillion. Now, 10 more years of light training, so another times 5 power increase. So 68 quadrillion, 125 trillion PL. Now we're at GT. I consider
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus to be non-canon, except for SS4 and the last story arc, because those were the only parts of GT made by Akira Toriyama. So I'm not going to go into the details of all Goku's GT power increases, but for each major beating he takes, increase his PL by times 5. Anyway, on to SS4. 68 quadrillion 125 trillion times 50 = 3 quintillion 406 quadrillion 250 trillion PL. So, how many planets could that destroy? I estimated 5000 earlier to destroy a planet. I'm gonna once again be conservative,
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus and estimate twice that. So now, our ultimate math problem is 3406250000000000000 / 10000. The final number is the amount of planets SS4 Goku can destroy in one max power energy blast. *Gets out his calculator* 3406250000000000000 / 10000 = 340625000000000, or 340 trillion 625 billion planets.. I'm not sure how you're gonna argue this one without sounding like a stubborn mule tbh. Everything I said is backed up facts and mathematics. Now, to see how much Superman was lifting.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob When Goku blows up mountains he is holding back for the sake of the planet he's fighting on. SS1 Frieza saga Goku has enough energy to destroy a planet at least 284 times. 150,000,000 / 530,000 = 284. 13 septillion is the weight of earth. 13 septillion times 284 = 3 octillion. It's simple math really. And anyone that's seen DBZ can tell you that Goku is hundreds, or even thousands of times stronger by the end of the series as a SS3 than he is as SS1 in the Frieza saga.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus As for speed, it's stated in the comics that pre crisis Superman travels at the speed of light. It takes 7 light minutes to go from earth to the sun. Energy waves in DBZ typically only take a few seconds to go past the sun. That means energy waves move over 100 times faster than light, which is Superman's max speed. Goku can dodge energy waves. Therefore Goku can move hundreds of times faster than light. Also, that is just flight speed, which doesn't help in a fight.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus Goku also has faster than light agility, which Superman has NEVER displayed in any form of media. Faster than light punches/dodging is > faster than light flying in a close quarters fight.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob Both of those are non canon, as GT is an overbudgeted fanfic and the other world tournament is anime filler. Also it was 40 tons, and Goku wasn't powered up anyway, so it matters even less as his physical strength is the result of his energy. Also, moving a galaxy worth of planets is comparatively easy. According to real world physics, it only requires 1% of a planet's mass in energy to move it. And don't forget that flight speed factors into energy. Pre crisis Superman lifting
Laurcus 5 months ago
@Laurcus 200 quintillion tons with brute strength alone is actually a significantly more difficult feat of strength according to actual real world science. It's the difference between pushing a semi truck in a zero g environment vs lifting it over your head in a 1 g environment. That's not my opinion, that's science. And Goku could easily destroy the universe is he wanted to, that's not a big deal. Even a weakling like Frieza or Cell could do that.
Laurcus 5 months ago
@itsgangstabob cell stated that goku could blow up the earth with his Kamehameha
NigelSSJ1 5 months ago