Remembrances of Games Past, Part #19 - Baldur's Gate

[HardWarUK]

I cannot believe that you said you put Mass Effect a 'close second' to BG1!!!! Mass Effect to me is a multiformat 'Action-Adventure' - not a cRPG's like BG1 and 2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2 and Planescape Torment! After all, in Mass Effect, what would you call the tactical linear shooter quests other than 'Action' and what can you call the conversation system other than an 'adventure system' - thereby making ME an Action-Adventure. Gamers of the mid to late 90's seeing ME would have said that!

[Demiath]

@HardWarUK While I genuinely believe that Mass Effect 2 is a ground-breaking action/adventure/RPG hybrid, it's also worth mentioning that I don't consider BioWare to be as good a developer as many others do. Baldur's Gate 1 was revolutionary in how it handled party-based combat and also partly responsible for a great RPG revival ten years ago, but I'm not a great fan of anything the studio produced in the long period between BG1-2 and ME2. And as you know, PS:T and ID1-2 are Black Isle games...

[wonderboy2402]

@Demiath I am in agreement with you there HardWarUk. All I will add is that playing through BG1 just felt like a "Pure" RPG experience. The combination of cast, setting, plot and game mechanics just felt engrossing and perfect for its time. I still can play it today, and while the resolution is a challenge, I quickly get used to it...

[Demiath]

@wonderboy2402 Well put, I completely agree. And yes, you can definitely get used to the low resolution if you want to; high-res mods are a mere convenience.

[teldiron]

I think the world creation and story in Baldur's Gate 2 are more ambitious. BG1 has a charming and rare atmosphere, but I don't like its approach of aimless wandering in empty maps with a few tree-sprites. I just can't immersive myself in this. It feels too much like filler. In the Star Craft map editor I can also put trees here and there and some random encounters. I don't call it an epic adventure though.

[Demiath]

@teldiron Well, since it's precisely the "epic adventure" thing that I most object to about BG 2 and similar games I can't say I object to simply strolling through the woods killing orcs. Also, the overworld "vacuum cleaning"-style exploration of filler forests is only one aspect of the game, while spending time in towns and clearing dungeons are much more important parts of the gameplay experience.

[teldiron]

@Demiath I don't know any other game where the "epic adventure" thing was ever done so well as in BG2. It's like a blueprint for other games of that kind. It's still full of fighting, but usually within a context. And there are so many different contexts that it still feels relatively free. Also the bad guys are creative and complex and not the only evil force in the world...

[Demiath]

@teldiron To be honest, BG2 was the title which finally made me realize that narratives in games are not worth caring about for even a second; and that the only thing which matters is the quality of the gameplay. BG2's contrived "maturity" (evident right from its excessively dark, almost "Saw"-like beginning) and predictably self-righteous antagonist added nothing to the series. Better than most game stories? Sure. Half-decent enough for even a second-rate fantasy novel? Probably not.

[teldiron]

@Demiath I wouldn't describe the beginning as "Saw"-like or contrived maturity (like more often nowadays). It's like a stage to inspire the imagination of some of the darker facets in a fantasy world. And the predictable self-righteousness of the antagonist had a certain pseudo-myth-like charm in its execution (not better than a generic fantasy novel, but with proper structure and all). Or perhaps it's just nostalgia for when I was more impressible.

[Demiath]

@teldiron I maintain that BG2's beginning is a mission statement of sorts by Bioware ("this shit is D-A-R-K, we're not into that kiddie crap anymore") which reveals a genuine lack of understanding for what maturity in narratives mean. And the only reason people believe that there's something compelling about the character of Jon Irenicus is because he happens to be voiced by David Warner. A veteran like him can make any line of dialogue sound a whole lot better than it actually is.

[teldiron]

@Demiath But then, it's not all dark in the beginning. Aren't those pools with visions of other places or times in one of the caves not a nice touch and somewhat reminiscent of Planescape Torment? It gives the dungeon as well as the world some history, increases our yearning to be free, characterises our tormenter a bit (wants to hoard all useful as well as beautiful things). It's not the game's genuine maturity or depth but how well it's put-together. An illusion of many things going on.

[odin422]

there is a D&D Module campaign made for this by fans. it's QUITE long.

[ktchong]

I did not like the first Baldur's Gate. I bought it, tried it but did not complete it. I moved on to other games. Later, Baldur's Gate II came out and got spectacular reviews. I went back and forced myself to play through Baldur's Gate, so I could import my character into Baldur's Gate II. The experience was really... NOT fun. Thank goodness Baldur's Gate II was a much, much better game.

[0NoName9]

Haha, talk about overpowered. My Sorcerer could probably kill gods. Three Project Images in a Chain Contingency: Army of Me. Army of Horrible Rape.

I appreciate low-level DnD, but overall I prefer BG2 for the sheer content if nothing else. I've almost beaten 1 with a Conjurer, and I've started my second character in 2: a Wild Mage. Using high level spells at low levels is awesome.

These two games are my absolute favorite RPGs, Torment being a close third.

[POLE7645]

Too bad it wasn't a video that included Minsc (the hammiest and funniest character from Bioware).

I've always wanted to find a copy of this, but I can't find one (hoping for GOG to get the rights).

[dippsydenejkine]

I find BG2 much more gripping than BG1 for one reason, as BG2 seems to have a much more easier to use interface system. Both games are great, and are much better than most RPGs to date.

[Demiath]

@dippsydenejkine I definitely agree that the game engine itself is way better in BG2, so mods that let you play BG1 in BG2's engine are pretty much essential.

[matternicuss]

@Demiath i apprecate the low level characters in the game too, especially when starting as a mage (talk about a weakling!) but BG2 has so many refinements, and imo, a better villian, and better character development with companions. BG2 to me, is like the first game x 10

[Demiath]

@matternicuss True, but these days most of the refinements of BG2 are available in BG1 with engine mods (as seen in this video) and fix packs which build on the companion relationship aspect etc.

And Jon Irenicus being a better villain? That whiny pretentious loser? Come on, at least good ol' Sarevok had a sense of humor... ;)

[matternicuss]

@Demiath but Irenicus had a richer back story imo, i almost felt sorry for him. i like it when villains show signs of a past goodness that still haunts their character, makes them more intriguing. i never thought he was a whiner lol. Plus, i really like the actor who did Irenicus' voice. to each his own though. both BG's are undeniably awesome games in any case

[DWTerminator]

I need to find a copy, having played it and never been able to get it since then. Managed to get Icewind Dale 2 but that's almost nothing like the epicness that is Baldur's Gate as a series. Really didn't get into D&D until Neverwinter Nights HOTU (which I recognize a song from that at the end of this video, by the way) came out, and by then BG1 and 2 were pretty much off shelves here in the States. Up till then my RPG gaming was mostly Arcanum, Aethra, Dungeon Siege, and Morrowind.

[Demiath]

@DWTerminator The BG series shouldn't be too difficult to find since there have been so many cheap collections released by Interplay (typically with BG1+2+expansions and/or Icewind Dale as well). For example, a quick search on Amazon revealed a "BG 4 in 1 Boxset" for 18$ as the first result.

However, a lot of people (me included) are waiting impatiently for some kind of downloadable version on Good Old Games or Steam...

[DWTerminator]

I'd definitely jump for joy on a GoG or Steam release (as I did with Arcanum despite owning the disc copy), but if I can find one of those box sets I'll see if I can get it. Who knows, maybe my local bargain bin will have it.