Wretched: The Church of Smoke and Mirrors.

[shadyrill]

Luk 9:29 - And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.

Luk 9:30 - And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

Luk 9:31 - who, appearing in GLORY, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Luk 9:32 - Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His GLORY and the two men standing with Him

[shadyrill]

Mat 16:28- "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they SEE the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mat 17:1 - Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.

Mat 17:2 - And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

[jackraysonable]

... just saying, you can't really compare the situation we have now in the New Covenant with the Old. Moses and Isaiah did not have their sins completely taken away by Jesus then as we do now. Their sins were merely covered by the Levitical sacrifices that the priests would offer to God, therefore if they did see the glory of God, they would have died as they would be unclean. We, however, with the redemptive work of Christ are clean and we are free to see his manifest glory... theology?

[jayjaygee123]

Why is that clock upside down?

[intercessa]

I really didn't think it was meant as a compliment, for I can see no kindness in you, just sour grapes. I am sorry for your past experiences. However, your skepticism seems coupled with an unholy hatred, sarcasm, and even snobbery that doesn't help your case. And I'm done with this thread.

[RVGuy1959]

@intercessa Thank you!

[intercessa]

Y'all-- there are many other videos on this event, and people were screaming with hysteria, as we would expect. Don't forget, it was a 45-minute long phenomenon. People in awe became hushed, amazed. The "glitter" was forming in mid-air, 15 feet up, and several feet down from the ceiling, apart from any airvents or adjacent structures. And it went UP! Try throwing glitter and make it go UP! Ha! It goes DOWN. The fact that people seek to disprove rather than prove God's glory is sad.

[stu1002]

My own position on this is somewhat different to Todds. Todd seems to be committed to cessationism. I see nothing in scripture to think that God could or would not act in supernatural ways in the current age. However, I rather make the empirical observation that he DOES not. There is also a question of how supernatural God has to be before you call it miraculous. If you pray for someone to be healed and they get better, is that a miracle, or merely an answered prayer? Tough to say...

[bv1115]

I never heard any of them say... as Todd put it.... "It looks like the glory of God coming down" did I just miss that or did he (gasp) make it up?

[RVGuy1959]

@bv1115 I am making a guess that you are a young(er) person. May I say that you are wearing your dislike of Todd and or Wretched ministry on your sleeve. Todd is just one of many ministries that is concerned about the direction in todays "post modern" theology. Be sure of your target before releasing the arrows. These little video snippets are probably the most critisized because if they were the only message coming out of this ministry then we would know very little about the ministry.

[intercessa]

@RVGuy1959 Ha--thank you for thinking I'm young. I'm over 50. And arrows? Who is realeasing arrows? Todd is! This video is out of context--there were many other videos showing hysterical joy. It went on 45 minutes--plenty of time for people to grow quiet in awe. Todd's videos are sarcastic and designed to campaign for antagonism that just might be against the Spirit in some cases. He is not being wise, having not been there. Remember the upper room ("These are not drunk as ye suppose")?

[RVGuy1959]

@intercessa Todds "campaign for antagonism" is not unfounded. It is supported by the connections this partucular organization has with IHOP and IHOP's founders connection with past charismania movements mentioned such as the "Toronto" blessing. And my comment regarding age was not meant as a compliment. It's obvious I take a more conservative and historical view of biblical theology having come out of many years in a "charismatic" church.

[bv1115]

@RVGuy1959 I am a young person but that is irrelavent. "post modern"? I think not this movement is coming from the study of the new testament church and is modeled after it! What arrows? I am simply asking legitamite questions. Todd is the one lashing out against this. I have experienced the presence of God it is a marvelous thing and you wish it would never end. I have also experienced the presence of evil and THAT is a horrible experience. I have experienced both. Have you experienced either?

[RVGuy1959]

@bv1115 Yes! and just be careful with seeking after "experiences".

[bv1115]

@RVGuy1959 I am not seeking experiences. I only want to know the God of the Bible not the god of the modern church. But I amguessing that you are running from a bad experience with someone that claimed to be a "prophet,healer,etc." and failed you or a friend or family member and if that is the case then I apologize in their place that they guaranteed something that they didn't deliver.

[RVGuy1959]

@bv1115 Oh goodness no, that's a little embarrassing. I have had only 2 pastors in 26 years. First one was a topical and series preacher who's church has become very popular and very large with lots of modern entertainment and modern marketing to attract the locals and you can always depend on a nice series. While my current pastor preaches verse by verse and is a graduate of The Masters Theological Seminary. You have a good life we will meet in glory. No more assumptions please. :-)

[bv1115]

@RVGuy1959 I appologize if I offended you, I assure you that was not my intention. May your life be blessed. See you in Heaven

[RVGuy1959]

@bv1115 Thank you!

[JuzziBurnsRed]

1:11 "Let the glory come around us, let the..river from the glory of the heavens open up on the anointing for the flowing of the glory from the river." LOL! Good job, Todd.

[bv1115]

So God opened the heavens in Matthew and I don't think He closed them anywhere after that. Why do we find it necessary to close them! Moses lived before sin had been delt with God was a Judge in the Old testament in The New testament He is still a just judge but He has also has become our Father. Does a good father only show himself to his kids in a way that will strike terror into them? Absolutely not so why would God be any different!

[bv1115]

Ok so if the Glory always knocked people down or whatever you think it did then why weren't the apostles laying on the floor when the glory of the spirit fell on them? They weren't laying all over the place they turned around and shared it! Why do we have the adacity to think that God can only show His glory in a way that we can't take physically! He tore the veil in two so that everyone could see His glory why do we think that we need to sew it shut again?

[exiled30]

My personal reaction would be....FIIIIIRRRREEE!!!!

The ventilation system? Really?

[hippoaugustine]

On a cold day in Minnesota I see the "glory" coming out of the tail pipes of the cars in front of me.

[Michaelrwright92]

Nailed it. Great video.

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

Didn't the soldiers become like dead men when the angel rolled away the stone from Jesus' tomb? I know they didn't stand around clapping.

[intercessa]

Okay dude, now we know what you DON'T believe in all these critical videos. So what DO you believe? I mean, naysayers are as old as the scoffers who perished in The Flood. Do you care to throw your hat in the ring and subject yourself to critics? Oh, and one more thing regarding this "smoke and mirrors" event. Were you THERE?

[RVGuy1959]

@intercessa It is unwise to base your objections on a few videos. Wretched's theology is based on historical theology. Todd has "thrown his hat" into the ring of wolfs many times. Todays post modern theology is barely over 100 years old and it is scary. There is still over 1900 years of Christian history to compare with. Like my pastor once said "read the dead authors" you will be amazed at how far we have strayed.

[thegreenestthings]

@stu1002 yes i was saying the same thing like really they are getting excited about a possible fire hazard

[tyronpiteau]

Check out Acts 5: 38-39.

Mocking and scoffing doesn't help, I know I am guilty of this at times. So the best thing to do is pray for them according to 2 Tim 2:24-26 if- you think they are in error.

[woodb51]

@tyronpiteau I don't see Todd as "mocking and scoffing." Of a sort he does poke fun, but how gullible can some people be? I have friends who are into Bethel. I think they just sort out the bad and cling to the good. But boy is there a lot of ridiculous stuff! No discernment whatsoever.

[YouAreNotAMonkey]

Thanks for making this video and informing us of the connections ...

Ya if it were true I would be very very freaked out indeed...as Todd stated...I would have fell to the floor and been crawling petrified.

[RocknForJesus]

I guess you could say that this is a cop-out, or an excuse, but I'm pretty sure if someone tried to video tape or photograph the glory of God, their cameras would explode.

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

@RocknForJesus lol I was thinking that too. How on earth could you possibly video tape a thing that could knock you stone dead? 

[MaharlikaAWA]

I constantly had to deal with this at Christian University. Most Christian universities are like this, especially Biola they soak this stuff up and the kids think gold dust and diamonds fall out of the sky and smoke and wine and speaking in tongues and flopping around. Especially the asian students its really bad and thety are promoting heresies all the time and believing all TBN people and more. The post modern hipster emergents too! Its nuts! The church is almost dead it is soooo small today.

[ThickShadescom]

holy smoke...

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

@ThickShadescom ha!

[JMcH]

@ThickShadescom - In this case, I prefer Rocky the Flying Squirrel's take on the phrase: "Hokey smoke!"

[stu1002]

Did anyone else see this and think "is that IT"???? I mean...if this WERE true...I've got the wrong God..because this is pathetic. I mean..really pathetic. Glitter dust like a bad special effect from a 1970s rock show? Is that IT? Really? My God is so much bigger than this...

[bv1115]

@stu1002 If your God is so big then why do you have trouble believing that He could do that? My God Shows His Glory to those whom He sees worthy of receiving it and spreading it. Would you srpead this if you were overcome by the glory? From your reaction I think not

[stu1002]

@bv1115 Don't confuse "could" with "would". Could God create a rather unimpressive and tacky 1970s glitter effect? Yes. Would he? No. Why? because it's pathetic. If this is what God considered a mighty show of his glory, then clearly he wouldn't be all that glorious. Read C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle". This is a donkey in a lion suit.

[bv1115]

@stu1002 Why wouldn't He show Himself that way if that is all He thinks they can take of Him He is loving enough to show Himself even in such a trivial way.

[stu1002]

@bv1115 Two reasons, first, if you want to argue like that, then you might as well argue that ANYTHING might be "The Glory of God"...eg: oh..a piece of fluff on my desk! It's the glory of God. The argument is reductio ad absurdum. Secondly, it presupposes that The Glory of God is something that God can "decide" to show or not show to varying degrees rather than an unalterable reality about himself and I consider that an unsafe assumption. God's Glory is an intrinsic unalterable property

[bv1115]

@stu1002 If you seek to see the glory of God He will show it in a way you can handle He is our father and yes fathers can be scary but a loving father choses not to keep his children in constant fear of him he shows them his presence in a way they can handle. Gods glory IS an unalterable reality of Himself but your thumbprint is an unalterable reality of you, you can leave as much or as little as you chose but that doesn't change the whole thing

[natemup]

I hate having to explain this stuff to people. It takes forever, I have to explain names, and people are clueless. I discovered my home church aligns with the NAR/IHOP/etc movement(s), and got out of there QUICK. Many of my friends are still involved, though, and it's tough trying to address it...

[RVGuy1959]

You want to experience God....read (study) your Bible. You want to know God....read (study) your Bible using proper hermeneutics. Go to church to worship, go to church to serve your brothers and sisters and go to church to give thanks. NOT TO BE ENTERTAINED. Todays "post modern" Christianity is so far from the historical faith and very disturbing and aggravating.

[bv1115]

@RVGuy1959 The God of The Bible Jesus that is didn't say go to church He disrupted the religious system of the day. If He did it then why should we be so full of pride as to think that He should change to fit our belief system that has stuck God in a box? This is Biblical Christianity

[RVGuy1959]

@bv1115 OK, your right. I should have said go to building and meet, My church. And while your there serve one another, worship me and give thanks that I have saved you.

[bv1115]

@RVGuy1959 He wants us to serve the world not just each other. We are the church. Church should be wherever we are.

[RVGuy1959]

@bv1115 Well thank you very much for that information. I don't recall saying any of the things you appear to be correcting me on. I mean I suppose I could argue your statement "serve the world" a bit based simply on the language your using but giving the small tidbits of information we are able to post here that would be unfare don't you think?

[trustHimforlife]

The sad thing is people who are there believe it. And another sad thing is people watching this video will believe it. Not wretched fans tho, they know better :)

[caragana5]

I'm sure I would be in tears and awestruck if I saw God's Glory. Most likely speechless, soaking it in and talking to Him asking what He required of me

[staum607]

@caragana5 nawww, wouldn't it be more likely to pull out your camera phone and be like saying, like, wow, look at that.... uhhhh glory cloud... it came out of the ventill... er... nowhere!

[HelloWorld1947]

@caragana5-EXACTLY! i wont even think twice abt taking out my cam and start recording....bunch of fools!

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

There's no business like show business.

[suziebellk]

LMBO...

These people have too much smoke, of a different kind!! LOL

"Yeah Dude..."

[joseacevedo559]

Lol and I've been in Redington many times

[SerJahPhoto]

Stupid sheep conversation...

It's like a gold cloud!

Did you see it?

Shut up!

I got it on my camera!

Yeah!

Out of nowhere!

[ginaduffey]

the gimmicks are to the point of ridiculous

[arek1212]

You,re right! This was not the glory of God! Those guys in Bethel Church should read their Bibles more carefully, to see what it says about the real manifestations of God.

[zionsgates]

Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.” John 4:48

This is just the beginning as the backslid church gets snared to accept the son of perdition.

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22

[ccsniper]

@zionsgates have you ever watched a Benny Hinn "healing" meeting? How about a Kenneth Copeland convention?

[RVGuy1959]

@zionsgates They never slid forward!!!!

[bv1115]

@zionsgates Well in order for there to be "false christs and false prophets" and that would imply false signs and wonders doesn't there have to be Real prophets and Real signs and wonders? You can't have a fake of something that no longer exisits.

[FXVG]

@zionsgates I prefer "deceive the elect, if that were even possible!", from Matthew 24:24. It explains the possibility to be zero; Mark 13:22 speaks about the power of such deception, Matthew 24:24 speaks about how it affects the elect :)

[leviMichealathan]

excellent,