(1) To understand "the Marxist angle" as "sex is a form of work" does have a basis in his writings. But I'd say it's much more useful to see prostitution in terms another of his insights - i.e. that capitalism can only survive by turning more and more of our authentic responses into commodities // Talking about what sort of rights we're going to give to atomised-individuals in a mythical free-market system is not really the best way to look at it. (cont...)
(2) Equally, talking about providing safe-working conditions for prostitutes ends up, in reality, just opening the door for a free-market fundamentalism which only pays lip-service to such safe-guards (Eg in New Z the government doesn't even keep a list of the addresses of brothels, so they can do random checks.) What's needed is for us, as a society, to find ways to fight back against capitalism's drive to commodify our lives. (Anyway, I've sent you one of my 20 vids on this subject - enjoy :-)
The various laws on prostitution and whether those laws are enforced varies wildly from nation to nation. We can understand this variability by first asking whether the act of selling sex is criminalized, or whether the act of buying it is criminalized. In situations involving trafficking of women, the selling is considered criminal. Whereas in Sweden, the buying is considered the crime.
I know a few former prostitutes and they just can't voice their views because of the differences between subject perspective when it comes to this topic. And that difference keeps them hidden for fear of the social and economic consequences. These voices are left out of much of the debate/discussion. Some of us have one arm tied behind our backs. Great start to a dialogue. Sorry I showed up late for the party. *sigh.
There's a lot about your taxonomy of positions about the sex industry that leave a bit to be desired, even if you are making a reasonably good attempt at some clarification of positions.
In particular, there are a lot of subtypes with some clear differences. Liberalism in particular. There are some very big difference between "market liberalism" and "right libertarianism" on one hand and "social liberalism" and "left libertarianism" on the other, even if both are broadly liberal.
Its a distinction that's really important in this debate, because a lot of the "sexual libertarians" and sex-positive feminists are coming from a more or less social liberal or left libertarian POV. Yet their position gets strawmanned as a free market laissez-faire one that completely ignores social context.
Now perhaps those doing the strawmanning have a lot of investment in the idea that recognition of social context necessitates a strongly anti-individualist position, strong limitations on individual autonomy, and "social rights" trumping the rights of the individual. Hence, they simply ignore any intermediate position in order to shore up this position.
Sorry this is a total contradictions to your comments on my video. you said ANY talk of sex trafficking and coercion were just pro-abolitionists propaganda.
Since all sex workers rights activists are fighting for legalization, I can't understand how they can just ignore a systemic problem which hurts their cause. If I were a member of a sex workers rights group, I'd be lobbying for safeguards to ensure that those working in the profession were doing so without any coercion.
"Sorry this is a total contradictions to your comments on my video. you said ANY talk of sex trafficking and coercion were just pro-abolitionists propaganda."
OH BULLSHIT!
This is not the first time you've completely mischaracterized the arguments coming from the pro-decrim side.
I don't know what motivation is behind your utter dishonesty around this issue, but you are definitely not advancing any kind of more nuanced perspective, that's for sure.
I think we've ended the usefulness of this exchange. I can only say that your response is both insulting and inaccurate, but considering the history of your hundreds of similar comments on many, many videos this kind of insult is predictable.
Good luck in learning how to make cogent, coherent arguments.
Well, all I have to say is I've seen this playbook before. Make shitty mischaracterizations of other people's positions, then play the victim when you get a negative response over it.
I really don't know what your motivations are for so grotesquely mischaracterizing the positions and understanding of the relevant issues of the pro-decrim side. I just wish you'd just come right out and say who or what you have it in for and why. You clearly have some kind of axe to grind.
The only point I wish to add is that although I'm not interested in dialogue with you in particular, expect me to call you out if you continue misrepresenting and strawmanning pro-decriminalization positions in the future.
I would like to see some statistics ... for e.g. The rate of (heavy type) drug usage, the suicide rate, psych. disorder numbers & types etc. of sex industry workers
Great to see the complexity of this FINALLY being addressed.
Most of the arguments so far have been about labeling and then taking sides rather than looking at how what really goes on in the world.
For example, I've tried to point out that those countries which have legalized prostitution have experienced negative consequences: increase in forced sex trafficking [Netherlands/Germany, etc], also crime often increases in districts where it's legalized.
The sad fact is those who are advocates for blanket legalization without regard to consequences, make general [and inaccurate] points like human trafficking exists in all countries, and it's not just sex trafficking.
A professional statistician could explain to them that there is a real and statistical increase in trafficking FOR sex when it is legalized. Does that mean we should not consider legalization? No...BUT it does mean that if we want humane working conditions we can't ignore this.
And, once again, you are arguing that the "statistics" and "facts" about prostitution and human trafficking put together by anti-sex industry orgs should be the required framework for any acceptable dialogue on prostitution to take place. The problem is, these veracity of these facts, such as the idea that harmful, victimizing prostitution inevitably increases with legalization, are in themselves part of the controversy.
You have acquired me of this multiple times, and it's quite simply a vicious strawman!
The truth is that if we want to legalize prostitution while ignoring the experiences of the many countries which are trying to do that, we are likely hardening those entrenched against its legalization. If the aim is more respect for sex workers, we simply CAN'T ignore the systemic human rights abuses which these countries have experienced.
The problem is to ensure ONLY willing participation
2B, don't even talk to me about strawmanning, considering your characterization of the pro-legalization group ("advocates for blanket legalization without regard to consequences").
I think the "pro" side actually does understand the complexity of the issue, particularly the *sex workers* in that group who are coming at the issue from experience.
I think your real issue is one of control, and challenges to the power of NGOs and second-wave academics to define this issue.
"The problem is to ensure ONLY willing participation"
On this we agree. In fact, I don't think that anybody on the "pro" side would have any issue with this, in spite of the way you've characterized their position.
@2bsirius I don't know if you saw Pyrhho's video, but he suggested that all brothels be employee owned and run. I thought that was a good idea worth exploring. He did not title his vid so it could be found. For obvious reasons, I think. watch?v=p9ZNkvM9_ak
Social stigma and felt shame can be responsible for most of the negative effects of prostitution w/i the context of choosing such a career. In terms of wage slavery such sex work can free up much of a person's time for other things, like going to college, as one night of work a week can provide more income than a full time job. A summer of sex work can also be a good way to support a concentrated effort in developing creative interests which may require a few years to become profitable.
Right, but even picking on the John's is still a way to reinforce another class structure between the attractive (the haves) and unattractive (the have nots). For example, most of the (usually men) who go to see sex workers are either physically unattractive, disabled or socially disadvantaged in some way. So, you end up simply creating another system of discrimination against people who are disadvantaged in some way.
I love the videos you two do together. I think you have a good chemistry. I disagree that a relationship exists between the attractiveness of those women who support prostitution and the unattractiveness of the women who oppose it. Among other things, I think that presupposes what constitutes attractiveness is uniform.
illegal will hurt both the prostitutes and the johns, which will exist no matter how you structure your society, it is just a fact of life. If you legalize it, you allow for regulation, worker representation, drive violent pimps out of the market, and allow for cleaner and safer working environments for all.
Everyone can play this child like 'ought' game, but everyone needs to realize what 'ought' is not what 'is', and we need to have a dialogue of what 'IS'.
@TheHeather1985 - you assume legalization gets rid of black markets but that just isn't the truth. Because when it's totally legalized and regulated (and I think it should be decriminalized at any rate - at least for the worker) - other people are marginalized and prevented from entering the legal market. For example - if you aren't a legal citizen, if you have a HIV (or any STD) or a drug addiction. Or if you are underage.
@cannibalcountry True, but the consumers in the market will look to certified prostitutes who have no STD's or (let's be honest) STD's in common with them. So there can also be a market for a woman with HIV to be a prostitute. As I don't believe prostitution should not be allowed to people below 18 there would still be a black market for underage prostitutes, however this is where one must be a pragmatist, draw the line, and abandon idealism.
Comment removed
mickGPN 6 months ago
(1) To understand "the Marxist angle" as "sex is a form of work" does have a basis in his writings. But I'd say it's much more useful to see prostitution in terms another of his insights - i.e. that capitalism can only survive by turning more and more of our authentic responses into commodities // Talking about what sort of rights we're going to give to atomised-individuals in a mythical free-market system is not really the best way to look at it. (cont...)
mickGPN 6 months ago
(2) Equally, talking about providing safe-working conditions for prostitutes ends up, in reality, just opening the door for a free-market fundamentalism which only pays lip-service to such safe-guards (Eg in New Z the government doesn't even keep a list of the addresses of brothels, so they can do random checks.) What's needed is for us, as a society, to find ways to fight back against capitalism's drive to commodify our lives. (Anyway, I've sent you one of my 20 vids on this subject - enjoy :-)
mickGPN 6 months ago
The various laws on prostitution and whether those laws are enforced varies wildly from nation to nation. We can understand this variability by first asking whether the act of selling sex is criminalized, or whether the act of buying it is criminalized. In situations involving trafficking of women, the selling is considered criminal. Whereas in Sweden, the buying is considered the crime.
otonanoC 1 year ago
I know a few former prostitutes and they just can't voice their views because of the differences between subject perspective when it comes to this topic. And that difference keeps them hidden for fear of the social and economic consequences. These voices are left out of much of the debate/discussion. Some of us have one arm tied behind our backs. Great start to a dialogue. Sorry I showed up late for the party. *sigh.
alowlyapprentice 1 year ago
There's a lot about your taxonomy of positions about the sex industry that leave a bit to be desired, even if you are making a reasonably good attempt at some clarification of positions.
In particular, there are a lot of subtypes with some clear differences. Liberalism in particular. There are some very big difference between "market liberalism" and "right libertarianism" on one hand and "social liberalism" and "left libertarianism" on the other, even if both are broadly liberal.
(cont)
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue
Its a distinction that's really important in this debate, because a lot of the "sexual libertarians" and sex-positive feminists are coming from a more or less social liberal or left libertarian POV. Yet their position gets strawmanned as a free market laissez-faire one that completely ignores social context.
(cont)
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue
Now perhaps those doing the strawmanning have a lot of investment in the idea that recognition of social context necessitates a strongly anti-individualist position, strong limitations on individual autonomy, and "social rights" trumping the rights of the individual. Hence, they simply ignore any intermediate position in order to shore up this position.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue
Sorry this is a total contradictions to your comments on my video. you said ANY talk of sex trafficking and coercion were just pro-abolitionists propaganda.
Since all sex workers rights activists are fighting for legalization, I can't understand how they can just ignore a systemic problem which hurts their cause. If I were a member of a sex workers rights group, I'd be lobbying for safeguards to ensure that those working in the profession were doing so without any coercion.
2bsirius 1 year ago
@2bsirius
"Sorry this is a total contradictions to your comments on my video. you said ANY talk of sex trafficking and coercion were just pro-abolitionists propaganda."
OH BULLSHIT!
This is not the first time you've completely mischaracterized the arguments coming from the pro-decrim side.
I don't know what motivation is behind your utter dishonesty around this issue, but you are definitely not advancing any kind of more nuanced perspective, that's for sure.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue
I think we've ended the usefulness of this exchange. I can only say that your response is both insulting and inaccurate, but considering the history of your hundreds of similar comments on many, many videos this kind of insult is predictable.
Good luck in learning how to make cogent, coherent arguments.
2bsirius 1 year ago
@2bsirius
Well, all I have to say is I've seen this playbook before. Make shitty mischaracterizations of other people's positions, then play the victim when you get a negative response over it.
I really don't know what your motivations are for so grotesquely mischaracterizing the positions and understanding of the relevant issues of the pro-decrim side. I just wish you'd just come right out and say who or what you have it in for and why. You clearly have some kind of axe to grind.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@2bsirius
The only point I wish to add is that although I'm not interested in dialogue with you in particular, expect me to call you out if you continue misrepresenting and strawmanning pro-decriminalization positions in the future.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue
Sighing and laughing at the same time.
OK...Sure...Whatever
2bsirius 1 year ago
Excellent conversation! I love these dialogues you do.
dilute666 1 year ago
I would like to see some statistics ... for e.g. The rate of (heavy type) drug usage, the suicide rate, psych. disorder numbers & types etc. of sex industry workers
Nice presentation, Thank you .... MF
matrixflower13 1 year ago
Great to see the complexity of this FINALLY being addressed.
Most of the arguments so far have been about labeling and then taking sides rather than looking at how what really goes on in the world.
For example, I've tried to point out that those countries which have legalized prostitution have experienced negative consequences: increase in forced sex trafficking [Netherlands/Germany, etc], also crime often increases in districts where it's legalized.
I NOT against legalization. BUT THINK!
2bsirius 1 year ago
The sad fact is those who are advocates for blanket legalization without regard to consequences, make general [and inaccurate] points like human trafficking exists in all countries, and it's not just sex trafficking.
A professional statistician could explain to them that there is a real and statistical increase in trafficking FOR sex when it is legalized. Does that mean we should not consider legalization? No...BUT it does mean that if we want humane working conditions we can't ignore this.
2bsirius 1 year ago
@2bsirius
And, once again, you are arguing that the "statistics" and "facts" about prostitution and human trafficking put together by anti-sex industry orgs should be the required framework for any acceptable dialogue on prostitution to take place. The problem is, these veracity of these facts, such as the idea that harmful, victimizing prostitution inevitably increases with legalization, are in themselves part of the controversy.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@iamcuriousblue
You have acquired me of this multiple times, and it's quite simply a vicious strawman!
The truth is that if we want to legalize prostitution while ignoring the experiences of the many countries which are trying to do that, we are likely hardening those entrenched against its legalization. If the aim is more respect for sex workers, we simply CAN'T ignore the systemic human rights abuses which these countries have experienced.
The problem is to ensure ONLY willing participation
2bsirius 1 year ago
@2bsirius
Oops...Read 'accused' NOT 'acquired'...DUH!
2bsirius 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@2bsirius
2B, don't even talk to me about strawmanning, considering your characterization of the pro-legalization group ("advocates for blanket legalization without regard to consequences").
I think the "pro" side actually does understand the complexity of the issue, particularly the *sex workers* in that group who are coming at the issue from experience.
I think your real issue is one of control, and challenges to the power of NGOs and second-wave academics to define this issue.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@2bsirius
"The problem is to ensure ONLY willing participation"
On this we agree. In fact, I don't think that anybody on the "pro" side would have any issue with this, in spite of the way you've characterized their position.
iamcuriousblue 1 year ago
@2bsirius I don't know if you saw Pyrhho's video, but he suggested that all brothels be employee owned and run. I thought that was a good idea worth exploring. He did not title his vid so it could be found. For obvious reasons, I think. watch?v=p9ZNkvM9_ak
alowlyapprentice 1 year ago
Social stigma and felt shame can be responsible for most of the negative effects of prostitution w/i the context of choosing such a career. In terms of wage slavery such sex work can free up much of a person's time for other things, like going to college, as one night of work a week can provide more income than a full time job. A summer of sex work can also be a good way to support a concentrated effort in developing creative interests which may require a few years to become profitable.
gedgetips 1 year ago
Right, but even picking on the John's is still a way to reinforce another class structure between the attractive (the haves) and unattractive (the have nots). For example, most of the (usually men) who go to see sex workers are either physically unattractive, disabled or socially disadvantaged in some way. So, you end up simply creating another system of discrimination against people who are disadvantaged in some way.
rockybr420 1 year ago
Great dialogue. I wonder if you followed the 20 + part disection of the feminist Gail Dines by Jordanowen42 recently.
I couldn't ever visit a prostitute, but I don't see anything wrong with the practice either, as long as it's safe and clean for everybody.
ScottishAtheist 1 year ago
I love the videos you two do together. I think you have a good chemistry. I disagree that a relationship exists between the attractiveness of those women who support prostitution and the unattractiveness of the women who oppose it. Among other things, I think that presupposes what constitutes attractiveness is uniform.
DanaGarrett 1 year ago
From what I'm hearing the Marxist and Radical feminists are being far too ideal. The facts are:
1) There will always be a demand for prostitution
2) There will be women who are willing (whatever the circumstance) to 'get ahead' via prostitution.
3) Making a good or service that has a great enough demand only makes the good or service available in black markets.
4) Black markets don't offer worker representation or consumer protections.
So we can conclude that making prostitution (cont)
TheHeather1985 1 year ago 5
illegal will hurt both the prostitutes and the johns, which will exist no matter how you structure your society, it is just a fact of life. If you legalize it, you allow for regulation, worker representation, drive violent pimps out of the market, and allow for cleaner and safer working environments for all.
Everyone can play this child like 'ought' game, but everyone needs to realize what 'ought' is not what 'is', and we need to have a dialogue of what 'IS'.
TheHeather1985 1 year ago 6
@TheHeather1985 - you assume legalization gets rid of black markets but that just isn't the truth. Because when it's totally legalized and regulated (and I think it should be decriminalized at any rate - at least for the worker) - other people are marginalized and prevented from entering the legal market. For example - if you aren't a legal citizen, if you have a HIV (or any STD) or a drug addiction. Or if you are underage.
cannibalcountry 1 year ago
@cannibalcountry True, but the consumers in the market will look to certified prostitutes who have no STD's or (let's be honest) STD's in common with them. So there can also be a market for a woman with HIV to be a prostitute. As I don't believe prostitution should not be allowed to people below 18 there would still be a black market for underage prostitutes, however this is where one must be a pragmatist, draw the line, and abandon idealism.
TheHeather1985 1 year ago
Aww.. it got cut off :o( This was a very good video... nice job.
Elenkhos 1 year ago
@Elenkhos ahem, please tell them you find me attractive. Thanks.
rememberthediamonds 1 year ago
@rememberthediamonds Ok... I find rememberthediamonds attractive! Ok why? Lol
Elenkhos 1 year ago
@Elenkhos They're saying that fems that critique the sex industry are not attractive. You missed that?
rememberthediamonds 1 year ago
@rememberthediamonds Oh! Ugh..... hmm? Really?
Elenkhos 1 year ago