I think Hitchen's is an excellent speaker, and I agree with his views on the evil's of religion. HOWEVER, on this I do not. There is no deterrent for criminals in this country to go to Jail. Especially here in the U.K, I have heard of people from oversea who try to get into jails in this country. There needs to a fear. I also don't like Hitchen's line, "The government is going to kill the killers." Because at the same level, we put criminals in jail. Isn't that kidnapping the kidnappers?
@ExistentialHazard Mmmmm, certainly there are murderers who should be shot out of sight but, the state carrying out executions is more to do with a vintictive retribution & hold on power than any form of deterent. I'd go as far as to say here in the so called UK, the state don't give a toss about murders as long as working class people are doin each other in, & not affecting the possessing class & the yahoos! Some auld pervert in a wig givin out lectures in Court, its pure f**kin pish!
@Eralun You don't have a Barr's Irn Bru about me, so you have no way of summing me up, however you may convince yourself otherwise! So as we say up in Scotia, GTF!
@TheGersroolz I'm not sure if your not a wee bit blazed, but either way yes I think I've summed you up pretty well, especially if you drink Irn Bru. Next you're going to tell me about the evil things the English have done, and how they are stealing all our oil ect ect. I really don't wana know about it ned
@Eralun Don't have a prob with the English, don't have a prob with any nationality but, you are a fanny! Ned, LOL, I was referring to steamers like you as Ned's many many years ago, so once again, ya non educated delinquent GTF! Good night fanny baws! Where do they get balloons like you from? God only knows!
Murderers DESERVE the Death Penalty. Its common sense if you take a life you should pay with yours. End of Story. So all of you anti death penalty liberals think that Stephen Hayes in CT of the 2007 gruesome home invasion murders should live? You're outta your mind and too soft.
@MadFNMax Except that no one can ever prove 100% the guilt of another human. And innocent people have been put to death. Therefore it is not about protecting the innocent but punishing the guilty. Own it.
@MadFNMax I would agree with you that murders deserve death. I'll grant you that. But how many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice to ensure we get all the real murderers? All too many people, many of them ON DEATH ROW, have been exonerated by DNA testing. For many crimes, DNA testing is not possible. I would rather have convicts break rocks in prison for the rest of their life, than take the risk of executing even a single innocent.
Such as with the Troy Davis case 7 of 9 witnesses have recounted their
testimony, how come cameras aren't in every building? Recording every move and word of an officer and witness so that cases don't get out of hand as we see today? The very thought of an execution without real proof has gotten under my skin, I can't stand the thought of this happening in 2011. Thanks for the post.
Ah Hitch debate I haven't seen! I was just looking for Milton Friedman videos. As much as I love the Milt, the Hitch is much better Friday night entertainment!
wow,the stench of burning flesh and flame behind the mask is routine so lets not dwell on that.I cant beleive he said that.
My arguement is that there are many people on deathrow that may be innocent,killing an innocent man/women in disgusting,i think killing anyone is disgusting.
2 wrong dont make a right,an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
@DaAlphaOmega I agree that we shouldn't have a death penalty, but I think the pragmatic case is stronger than the moral one (because people can just disagree about morals). Rehabilitation has been shown in Europe to drastically cut recidivism rates. Plus, who wants to live in a society where you could end up being killed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
To Americans: Just because you changed the method from cutting a persons head off to sliding a needle into someones vein doesn't change the fact that you, as a society, are strapping someone down and murdering them to make you feel better about it.
@2edsajdmsa with respect: It's not to make us feel better, it's an attempt to make society safer. Being sentenced to life without parole does not prevent criminals from committing murder or violence - or instructing others to do so. Members of the Aryan Nation serving life sentences, have continued their criminal activities, and have instructed others to commit murder and violence to people on the "outside". Unfortunately, they are imprisoned in states that do not have the Death Penalty.
@Andyerpointiz make you feel better, make you feel safer, theres no difference. At the end of the day you're sacrificing someone to make the public feel better/safer, and that is an indefensible reason for state sanctioned murder of civilians.
Theres no evidence that it serves as a deterrent. You're sacrificing someone because of the feelings of the mob, its a stone age practice.
@2edsajdmsa: You missed my point - that incarcerated, some felons still continue to attack society. In Virginia, a murderer whose death sentence was overturned, repeatedly sent letters to his victim's family saying what a slut the 14-year-old was, and describe the her rape and murder in detail. GOOD NEWS: Her rape wasn't part of the original indictment, so he was retried for rape and murder. He tried to arrange the murder of witnesses, but lost finally. He went to the chair. We ARE safer.
@Andyerpointiz Your example is not justification for the death penalty. People do evil things, I agree. So put them behind bars. A set of strong bars protects society just as much as a needle of toxic liquid.
I don't care what story you have. You could tell me there was a man who plucked the heads off of 500 babies and raped them on a video camera, I would still oppose the human sacrifice of this man because the thought that society can preside over a life is simply tribal and wrong.
@2edsajdmsa - with respect: If you don't care about circumstances then your position is not logical. If your opinion is so fixed, then your rationality is no better than those who would impose the death penalty for the theft of a loaf of bread. I am not damning you for it, I just can't see where you would draw the line? If your country were being invaded by a foreign power, and your family and friends being murdered - would you fight back? When does "Moral" and "Courage" conflict for you?
@Andyerpointiz I don't think you understand. I'm not drawing the line anywhere. I wouldn't kill someone for anything. I wouldn't use capital punishment for any crime.
Even during a war, if someone is caught I wouldn't execute them if they are not a threat (if they have no gun and can be locked up, they are not a threat).
Capital punishment doesn't meet the criteria for self defense. The self defense clause for killing someone is only valid if they're an immediate threat.
1)The body of evidence shows no such link. Cherry picking certain studies is what leads to creationism, global warming denial, alternative therapy and nonsense scares about vaccines.
2)How is being dead a punishment? The only punishment is the fear up until the moment of death, which - given its brevity - is tanamount to letting someone off with a brief sentence. I will no more be troubled\punished in death than I was prior to life.
3) There absolutely is. People have been found innocent after having been executed. Once an execution is done, it cannot be undone. More fundamentally though it is virtually a statistical certainty that innocent people will be executed, as miscarriages of justice are always possible and therefore will always happen in rare instances. This arguement alone makes capital punishment absolutely untenable. Years lost in prison are bad enough but at least people can move on. Not in death.
4) Given that you cannot conclusively demostrate capital punishment to be a worthwhile deterrent, given that being dead is not a punishment, and given that it will use this power to take the life of innocents, why grant the state such a power? Surely it is far more sensible to err on the side of not granting it. People can always be locked up for life and that will not run up so absolutely against problems 1, 2 and 3.
5) Then then, makes capital punishment worthwhile?
That the people responsible for their heinous crimes are deprived of life, just like their victims. Look up the triple murders in Cheshire, Connecticut and tell me these men deserve to live and get three squares and TV for the rest of their lives. If you say yes, then you are hopelessly unable to affirm that you care for the rights of the living (which is all that matters). The family had rights and these animals deserve death.
@nomis101uk On the DP being an effective deterrent: "If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call." - John McAdams.
@nomis101uk On the DP being an effective deterrent: "If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
question for whomever: any idea from where Hitch derives the argument that the death penalty is human sacrifice? i found the argument compelling and novel, actually has me thinking back to a debate i did in 5th grade humanities on the issue and wishing i had phrased it in these terms.
anyway, i would really like to read a rigorous argument linking the two concepts and don't know where to start looking. appreciate your suggestions in advance!
@mindgrapes The death penalty is not "Human Sacrifice". Human sacrifice was typically carried out on innocent victims as a religious ritual to appease the gods, spirits, or the deceased. They were not indicted after arrest on reasonable cause for murder, given a fair trial after years of evidence gathering and delaying tactics and then put to death as humanely as possible.
@StephenM02 I'm sorry. I am watching it there right now, I searched for 'Hitchens Koch' and a few results down there it was. I went first to cspan, then video library and then searched there.
@StephenM02 That seems to be the same debate. But as I said, I like watching it on C-span (c-spanvideo . org). The audio is rather low there but it's watchable in its entierty.
@ApricotRed Except that they are clearly not the same, because this one ends with Hitchens making the first official speech from the podium, and the videos in the other set are all every panelist sitting down. These look like they are post the debate in a Q&A time, but what about the rest of this debate?
@StephenM02 Well as both nak807 and myself have alluded, the full program is viewable on c-span site, not perhaps on this site (youtube). I have now watched the full debate to completion on that site. perhaps you need to download realplayer for the cspan videos to work but I know of no other way to watch it in its entirety.
I think Hitchen's is an excellent speaker, and I agree with his views on the evil's of religion. HOWEVER, on this I do not. There is no deterrent for criminals in this country to go to Jail. Especially here in the U.K, I have heard of people from oversea who try to get into jails in this country. There needs to a fear. I also don't like Hitchen's line, "The government is going to kill the killers." Because at the same level, we put criminals in jail. Isn't that kidnapping the kidnappers?
wigisnotaname 1 week ago
@ExistentialHazard Mmmmm, certainly there are murderers who should be shot out of sight but, the state carrying out executions is more to do with a vintictive retribution & hold on power than any form of deterent. I'd go as far as to say here in the so called UK, the state don't give a toss about murders as long as working class people are doin each other in, & not affecting the possessing class & the yahoos! Some auld pervert in a wig givin out lectures in Court, its pure f**kin pish!
TheGersroolz 1 month ago
@TheGersroolz I'm sorry, but when you say "the so called UK" it kinda sums you up.
Eralun 3 weeks ago
@Eralun You don't have a Barr's Irn Bru about me, so you have no way of summing me up, however you may convince yourself otherwise! So as we say up in Scotia, GTF!
TheGersroolz 3 weeks ago
@Eralun Ya Fanny!
TheGersroolz 3 weeks ago
@TheGersroolz I'm not sure if your not a wee bit blazed, but either way yes I think I've summed you up pretty well, especially if you drink Irn Bru. Next you're going to tell me about the evil things the English have done, and how they are stealing all our oil ect ect. I really don't wana know about it ned
Eralun 3 weeks ago
@Eralun Don't have a prob with the English, don't have a prob with any nationality but, you are a fanny! Ned, LOL, I was referring to steamers like you as Ned's many many years ago, so once again, ya non educated delinquent GTF! Good night fanny baws! Where do they get balloons like you from? God only knows!
TheGersroolz 3 weeks ago
It's CHRISTOPHER
huwrj 1 month ago 2
you should uhh..know the following.
ShAdOwChAnNeL1 1 month ago
@ExistentialHazard OK, so what do you do with someone serving a life sentence who murders another inmate or a guard?
kentamitchell 2 months ago
Murderers DESERVE the Death Penalty. Its common sense if you take a life you should pay with yours. End of Story. So all of you anti death penalty liberals think that Stephen Hayes in CT of the 2007 gruesome home invasion murders should live? You're outta your mind and too soft.
MadFNMax 2 months ago
@MadFNMax Except that no one can ever prove 100% the guilt of another human. And innocent people have been put to death. Therefore it is not about protecting the innocent but punishing the guilty. Own it.
majikalacity 2 months ago
@MadFNMax I would agree with you that murders deserve death. I'll grant you that. But how many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice to ensure we get all the real murderers? All too many people, many of them ON DEATH ROW, have been exonerated by DNA testing. For many crimes, DNA testing is not possible. I would rather have convicts break rocks in prison for the rest of their life, than take the risk of executing even a single innocent.
DandAinTac 2 months ago
@MadFNMax You assume that people are responsible for their actions.
ClamCrunchy 1 month ago
I wonder what he thinks of the summary execution of the US citizen-become Al Qaida spokesman in Yemen?
MomSaysImCool 2 months ago
There's something badly wrong with a government that thinks that they should use the death penalty to teach that killing is wrong.
alexface211 2 months ago
I really love hearing Hitchens talk left wing.
MomSaysImCool 2 months ago
Yeah, I wonder if Christopher Hitchens still opposes the death penalty since he backed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
PatchesRips 4 months ago
@PatchesRips He continues to vociferously oppose it and will until his dying day
beeroosterm 4 months ago
@PatchesRips
I LOVE Hitchens, but I am FOR the death penalty.
lotanddaughters 4 months ago
@lotanddaughters the punishment should fit the crime your right, but i would probs make an exception for wives who get abused and snap n such.
ShAdOwChAnNeL1 1 month ago
Would love to see this debate updated in the year 2012...So much has happened since 97
stressyjes 4 months ago
Such as with the Troy Davis case 7 of 9 witnesses have recounted their
testimony, how come cameras aren't in every building? Recording every move and word of an officer and witness so that cases don't get out of hand as we see today? The very thought of an execution without real proof has gotten under my skin, I can't stand the thought of this happening in 2011. Thanks for the post.
RAINBOWMATRIXS1 5 months ago
Ah Hitch debate I haven't seen! I was just looking for Milton Friedman videos. As much as I love the Milt, the Hitch is much better Friday night entertainment!
bertiethetoupee4 6 months ago
wow,the stench of burning flesh and flame behind the mask is routine so lets not dwell on that.I cant beleive he said that.
My arguement is that there are many people on deathrow that may be innocent,killing an innocent man/women in disgusting,i think killing anyone is disgusting.
2 wrong dont make a right,an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
DaAlphaOmega 8 months ago
@DaAlphaOmega I agree that we shouldn't have a death penalty, but I think the pragmatic case is stronger than the moral one (because people can just disagree about morals). Rehabilitation has been shown in Europe to drastically cut recidivism rates. Plus, who wants to live in a society where you could end up being killed just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
bertiethetoupee4 6 months ago
holy fuck Koch says "uh" a lot.
BillKiernan 9 months ago 2
lol, his name is Koch--teehee
ForkCheck 9 months ago 2
To Americans: Just because you changed the method from cutting a persons head off to sliding a needle into someones vein doesn't change the fact that you, as a society, are strapping someone down and murdering them to make you feel better about it.
2edsajdmsa 10 months ago
@2edsajdmsa with respect: It's not to make us feel better, it's an attempt to make society safer. Being sentenced to life without parole does not prevent criminals from committing murder or violence - or instructing others to do so. Members of the Aryan Nation serving life sentences, have continued their criminal activities, and have instructed others to commit murder and violence to people on the "outside". Unfortunately, they are imprisoned in states that do not have the Death Penalty.
Andyerpointiz 9 months ago
@Andyerpointiz make you feel better, make you feel safer, theres no difference. At the end of the day you're sacrificing someone to make the public feel better/safer, and that is an indefensible reason for state sanctioned murder of civilians.
Theres no evidence that it serves as a deterrent. You're sacrificing someone because of the feelings of the mob, its a stone age practice.
2edsajdmsa 9 months ago
@2edsajdmsa: You missed my point - that incarcerated, some felons still continue to attack society. In Virginia, a murderer whose death sentence was overturned, repeatedly sent letters to his victim's family saying what a slut the 14-year-old was, and describe the her rape and murder in detail. GOOD NEWS: Her rape wasn't part of the original indictment, so he was retried for rape and murder. He tried to arrange the murder of witnesses, but lost finally. He went to the chair. We ARE safer.
Andyerpointiz 9 months ago
@Andyerpointiz Your example is not justification for the death penalty. People do evil things, I agree. So put them behind bars. A set of strong bars protects society just as much as a needle of toxic liquid.
I don't care what story you have. You could tell me there was a man who plucked the heads off of 500 babies and raped them on a video camera, I would still oppose the human sacrifice of this man because the thought that society can preside over a life is simply tribal and wrong.
2edsajdmsa 9 months ago
@2edsajdmsa - with respect: If you don't care about circumstances then your position is not logical. If your opinion is so fixed, then your rationality is no better than those who would impose the death penalty for the theft of a loaf of bread. I am not damning you for it, I just can't see where you would draw the line? If your country were being invaded by a foreign power, and your family and friends being murdered - would you fight back? When does "Moral" and "Courage" conflict for you?
Andyerpointiz 9 months ago
@Andyerpointiz I don't think you understand. I'm not drawing the line anywhere. I wouldn't kill someone for anything. I wouldn't use capital punishment for any crime.
Even during a war, if someone is caught I wouldn't execute them if they are not a threat (if they have no gun and can be locked up, they are not a threat).
Capital punishment doesn't meet the criteria for self defense. The self defense clause for killing someone is only valid if they're an immediate threat.
2edsajdmsa 9 months ago
The thumbnail of this clip made Hitchens looks like the "Honky Tonk Man" from back in the 80s/90s on WWF.
rayalvarado2010 10 months ago
Hitchens is my fucking hero - but this is one of the few subjects in which I strongly disagree with him.
beeroosterm 11 months ago
1) Capital punishment has never been shown to be an effective deterent.
2) To die is escape all punishment
3) Innocents will be executed
4) The state cannot have the power to kill its citizens
5) It will not bring back the victim and will not heal the victim's family
nomis101uk 1 year ago
@nomis101uk
1. It is not meant to act as a deterrent. That being said, the empirical evidence suggests it is. And you can argue endlessly about it.
2. Of course it is punishment - it is the ultimate punishment to deprive someone of life.
3. There is no evidence for this claim whatsoever. The difference between actual innocence and legal innocence is vast.
4. Yes it can and should - in the case of 1st degree murder.
5. No shit, Sherlock. "Healing" is not the issue - Murder is the issue.
beeroosterm 11 months ago
@beeroosterm
1)The body of evidence shows no such link. Cherry picking certain studies is what leads to creationism, global warming denial, alternative therapy and nonsense scares about vaccines.
2)How is being dead a punishment? The only punishment is the fear up until the moment of death, which - given its brevity - is tanamount to letting someone off with a brief sentence. I will no more be troubled\punished in death than I was prior to life.
nomis101uk 11 months ago
@beeroosterm
3) There absolutely is. People have been found innocent after having been executed. Once an execution is done, it cannot be undone. More fundamentally though it is virtually a statistical certainty that innocent people will be executed, as miscarriages of justice are always possible and therefore will always happen in rare instances. This arguement alone makes capital punishment absolutely untenable. Years lost in prison are bad enough but at least people can move on. Not in death.
nomis101uk 11 months ago
@beeroosterm
4) Given that you cannot conclusively demostrate capital punishment to be a worthwhile deterrent, given that being dead is not a punishment, and given that it will use this power to take the life of innocents, why grant the state such a power? Surely it is far more sensible to err on the side of not granting it. People can always be locked up for life and that will not run up so absolutely against problems 1, 2 and 3.
5) Then then, makes capital punishment worthwhile?
nomis101uk 11 months ago
@nomis101uk
What makes the death penalty worthwhile?
That the people responsible for their heinous crimes are deprived of life, just like their victims. Look up the triple murders in Cheshire, Connecticut and tell me these men deserve to live and get three squares and TV for the rest of their lives. If you say yes, then you are hopelessly unable to affirm that you care for the rights of the living (which is all that matters). The family had rights and these animals deserve death.
beeroosterm 11 months ago
@nomis101uk On the DP being an effective deterrent: "If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call." - John McAdams.
beeroosterm 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nomis101uk On the DP being an effective deterrent: "If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
beeroosterm 11 months ago
I love the above comment, Hitchens starts at 7:30 , I thought i was the only one , haha
Mrtitmice 1 year ago
question for whomever: any idea from where Hitch derives the argument that the death penalty is human sacrifice? i found the argument compelling and novel, actually has me thinking back to a debate i did in 5th grade humanities on the issue and wishing i had phrased it in these terms.
anyway, i would really like to read a rigorous argument linking the two concepts and don't know where to start looking. appreciate your suggestions in advance!
mindgrapes 1 year ago
@mindgrapes The death penalty is not "Human Sacrifice". Human sacrifice was typically carried out on innocent victims as a religious ritual to appease the gods, spirits, or the deceased. They were not indicted after arrest on reasonable cause for murder, given a fair trial after years of evidence gathering and delaying tactics and then put to death as humanely as possible.
beeroosterm 11 months ago
Hitchens starts at 7:30
pcspeaker 1 year ago 94
@pcspeaker thank you haha
jurihaake 1 year ago
@pcspeaker thanks :)
zanderzander05 1 year ago
@pcspeaker thank you lol
imcrazy85 4 months ago
Sorry for being so slow on the uptake. I thought you meant the cspan wing of youtube. heading to the cspan site now. thanks much.
StephenM02 1 year ago
Update to all: if you are looking for 2/8 put this after the youtube site URL /user/thefilmarchive#p/search/4/NP7-OVcvStE
StephenM02 1 year ago 12
navasky is humpty dumpty.
amindbody 1 year ago
c-spanvideo DOT O R G /program/80173-1
nak807 1 year ago
where are the other parts? parts 2/8-8/8
StephenM02 1 year ago
@StephenM02 The whole thing seems to be availible at C-span
Just search for death penalty at their video library
ApricotRed 1 year ago
@ApricotRed good suggestion.
did it.
yielded unsatisfying results
StephenM02 1 year ago
@StephenM02 I'm sorry. I am watching it there right now, I searched for 'Hitchens Koch' and a few results down there it was. I went first to cspan, then video library and then searched there.
ApricotRed 1 year ago
@ApricotRed All I can find so far, are these /watch?v=ZXc-5g2rfTs&feature=related
StephenM02 1 year ago
@StephenM02 That seems to be the same debate. But as I said, I like watching it on C-span (c-spanvideo . org). The audio is rather low there but it's watchable in its entierty.
ApricotRed 1 year ago
@ApricotRed Except that they are clearly not the same, because this one ends with Hitchens making the first official speech from the podium, and the videos in the other set are all every panelist sitting down. These look like they are post the debate in a Q&A time, but what about the rest of this debate?
StephenM02 1 year ago
@StephenM02 Well as both nak807 and myself have alluded, the full program is viewable on c-span site, not perhaps on this site (youtube). I have now watched the full debate to completion on that site. perhaps you need to download realplayer for the cspan videos to work but I know of no other way to watch it in its entirety.
ApricotRed 1 year ago