Al Mohler at Southern Seminary(SBTS) says Pagans Glorify God

[dougmoerhoffman]

You need to read the first part of Romans Chapter 2.

"14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them"

What Mohler said is Biblical. Read the WHOLE Bible, and don't take things out of context.

[wawabbit]

I just wanted to add, that I am thankful for people like you who are "watching" and discussing and warning. Sometimes, though, it can become a bit of a witch hunt-just be careful when doing this. I know of many who began "watching ministries" which have ended up becoming even worse off than those they criticize. [arrogant, foolish, unloving, etc.] ps. are you a Calvinist? if so-why?]

[wawabbit]

I don't believe he was saying that pagans "worship" God when they do something [right] according to their conscience, but in their [right] doing, God's glory is evident.

God has certainly put His law into every conscience of every man, but because we all sin against His law [that is written onto our hearts] we need Christ. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and need a Savior, but that does not mean that we have not known right from wrong.

[elderaps]

He doesn't say they worship and glorify God.

[robzombay72]

"Christianity:

...the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree..." MAKES PERFECT SENSE !!!!!

[terriergal]

Romans 1 is what Mohler is talking about. Nothing an unbeliever does saves them. Mohler would not say that.

[RM77MKII]

Every time I stumble upon your videos, I'm reminded that "A fool is known by His many words"

[NezAisMe]

doing absolutely nothing as a human saved unsaved sinful pagan hindu whatever you bring GLORY to God because you were created in his image! thats is the most glorious thing in all creation you were created for his glory reguardless of your position in life

worship and Gloryfying God are two isolated but interlinked concepts you can glorify god without worshiping him just because you are human!

even though you spend far more time ripping people apart than worshiping you still bring glory to God

[CripForChrist]

worshipping and bringing God Glory are two totally different things,...

we worship Him as christians, who love jesus and live our lives Repentantly,

we bring GLORY to God, even when NOT worshipping Him because his fairness in sending us to Hell for our sins is accomplished

[mjrorech]

FOR THOSE WHO REGARD THEIR TIME AS PRECIOUS:

Alright, this guy Andrew Bain, has obviously received some good advice. Not only only from comments, but from listening to decent evangelical pasors like Mohler, Piper, Sproul, etc. My suggestion is to not leave a comment or watch his videos. He enjoys the controversy and the attention. So do yourself a favor, do him a favor, and don't post a comment or watch a video. Let us instead say a prayer for Andrew who is not using time to advance the gospel

[formerutuber]

Romans 2

[shaunfg]

Andrew, are you even a believer? How much better would your time be spent by spreading the good news to the lost. Do you really think God is honored by your attacks against fellow believers. Scripture says to have another witness before you rebuke an elder. You, my friend, are treading on dangerous ground!

[flucobaseball]

You have have completely twisted what Mohler said Andrew. Like has been said, you need to repent. You can do better than this.

[IchtusDeogloria]

Hey Andrew, you're taking things out of context. But worse by doing that you're attacking genuine children of the Living GOD.

Repent friend and ask GOD for a new heart so you can become truly born again:

"But the natural man(Andrew) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of GOD: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

(1 Corinthians 2:14)

JESUS IS LORD!!

[adstanra]

he also cannot say that the billions of people who lived before Jesus are in hell...they must have something against which they can be judged...it's a moral compass...of course it is rediculous!

[sparwood8]

You sound like you are putting words in the guy's mouth. I think he was answering the question, 'What about them who never heard the Gospel?'

and he is making a case for the voice of conscience, as God has written his laws on every human heart.

[Orsino89]

Out of context.

[mrb202]

no offense...but you are absolutely ridiculous. I have watched several of your illogical parsings of John Piper and Al Mohler and I think you need a lesson of what "context" means.  Go do something for the gospel instead of trying to attack people on Youtube.

[VoSpader73]

No. Mohler didn't say that pagans WORSHIP God when the obey the Laws which God has put into nature, he said that they GLORIFY Him UNKNOWINGLY. You're argument is based on a twisting of words.

[emzababy06]

is the explanation what Mohler meant or is it your interpretation of what you think he said?

[keriguma]

Also, I would encourage you to read Romans 2:12-18, from where it seems Dr. Mohler is deriving his words.

[keriguma]

Listen to everything Mohler is saying- he says that "God's glory is in" the pagans following the law even without knowing it. Isn't he right? He's not saying they are saved or somehow justified in their unbelief, he is saying that God is glorified by the enacting of the law which He Himself has written on their hearts. This is something which we refer to as General Revelation (as opposed to the Specific Revelation of the Bible). Be careful not to be a deceiver yourself, Mr. AndrewcBain.

[TheTruthCanHurt]

The narrator has erected a straw man here by saying that Mohler says that unbelieving gentiles "worship" God without realizing it. Mohler says, in reality, that pagans "glorify" God without realizing it by obeying His Law, which is written on their hearts. Be careful of baseless criticisms.

[brotherRonnie]

I've sent several comments to the SBTS to learn their position on Freemasonry. They will not answer it. Would Jesus be telling the christian to come out of this denomination because of it's sin tolerant liberal positions? No wonder the SBC is loosing so many members.

[kraigory]

AND, just because an unbeliever can inadvertently glorify God (which is really God glorifying himself through His creation), doesn't mean that an unbeliever has a good heart, or that they can see God's truth. They are still totally depraved, and incapable of turning to God. God has just displayed his glory by giving even depraved, fallen humans the ability to make good decisions.

[kraigory]

I think at the core, we agree here. Pagans and unbelievers can't worship God without knowing him, and they don't glorify him by their lives.

Mohler's point is that God can be glorified in his creation without the creation knowing. Obviously, any time an unbeliever makes a good decision rather than an evil one, they are only doing so because God has created good. When this "good" is employed, it glorifies God, even though it's not going to save anybody.

[kraigory]

Okay, I'm going to say that worshiping God is certainly glorifying to him. But, the glory of God is certainly not limited to acts of worship towards him.

I believe that people suffering in hell will glorify God, because it shows his justice that sinners are punished. That certainly isn't worshiping God.

Unbelievers following the rules of nature has nothing to do with worship, but it still glorifies God. The birth of a child glorifies God by showing the miracle of birth, which God created.

[AndrewcBain]

"I believe that people suffering in **will glorify God, because it shows his justice that sinners are punished. That certainly isn't worshiping God."

Exactly. God is NOT glorified by the works of unbelievers. God IS glorified by the destruction of the wicked. Pagan marriages are an ABOMINATION to God as Hebrews 11:6 says. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Why does Mohler say pagan marriages "glorify God". They do not. Their marriages are "consecrated" in unbeleif.

[AndrewcBain]

unbelief.

Mohler is either ignorant or stupid. Pagan marriages are done out of worship for FALSE GODS, not Jehovah.

Muslims marry out of worship to their moon-god allah. Hindus marry to glorify their sick sub-human deities, etc.

God is not glorified by this. Rom 1:21 says pagans refused to worship/honor God. It does NOT say they were subtlety or accidentally worshiping God.

Indeed, the pagans sacrificed to DEMONS, not God (1 Cor 10:21).

[AndrewcBain]

Another question is...

Why does Mohler say that pagans "obey" God? He says, "By their obedience to a Law that God has written in nature itself, they testify of nature's God, of the Creator himself."

I suppose Mohler would read Rom 11:30 as, "For as you then also obeyed[?] God, but now have obtained mercy". When it really says, "30 For as you then also disobeyed God, but now have obtained mercy."

[kraigory]

I didn't know it was possible to call Albert Mohler a liberal...

His point is that God is glorified through his creation. He never says that unbelieving gentiles worship God.

[AndrewcBain]

Hi. Thanks for the feedback.

You wrote, "[Mohler's] point is that God is glorified through his creation. He never says that unbelieving gentiles worship God."

Really? I wonder - what's the difference between worshiping God and glorifying God? Is it possible to "glorify God" without worshiping him? That seems to be what you're implying.

You agree with Mohler that pagans "glorify God... by their obedience [by getting married]".

[AndrewcBain]

But you then say, "His point is that God is glorified through his creation. He never says that unbelieving gentiles worship God."

Ah! So now an unbeliever can be WORSHIPING THE DEVIL, yet glorifying God at the same time! Haha. You fools.

[AndrewcBain]

Compare Mohler with the Bible. "Worshiping God" and "glorifying God" are used interchangeably - they basically mean the same thing. Have a look...

Rev 15:4 "Who will not fear You, Lord, and GLORIFY Your name? For You only are holy. For all the nations will come and will WORSHIP before You"

Psa 86:9 "All nations whom You have made shall come and WORSHIP before You; yea, Lord, they shall GLORIFY Your name."

Glorifying God = worshiping God according to the above verses.

[thbslawson]

Andrew,

You seriously need to repent friend. In every sing last one of your videos you serious take people of out context, and then draw a conclusion that they never made. This is called 'bearing false witness.'

[hallstkd]

Mohler never said the phrase on this video that "unbelieving gentiles WORSHIP God without even realizing it." You have twisted his words.

[countermoshow]

Quote: "So, Mohler says that unbelieving gentiles worshiped God without even realizing it." Please show me, using Mohler's actual words, where he makes this statement. I've listed to the clip twice and, you know, Mohler just doesn't make the statement you attribute to him. It's not there. It appears you've invented a statement and placed it on Mohler's lips. I realize that this is typical for you, but still. It's annoying.

[Revbone450]

christ = cult

[mikeyseaver]

Your whole thesis is based on an untruth. He never claims pagans glorify god. He says God's glory is in the sanctity of marriage and the moral code of people who chose not to sin because their conscience tells them not to. He doesn't claim they glorify god at all. he claims god's glory is already there, unbeknownst to them. I'm not just arguing semantics. There's a clear difference in the meanings of saying that x's glory is in y as opposed to y glorifying x. At the very least check your source.

[joshhussung]

there is a difference between glorifying God and being saved by God. Dogs and cats glorify God, too, without knowing about it. While pagans might brig glory to God by obeying their concience, they are still guilty of disobeying the law in other aspects.

[dan8486]

yeah bro you always try and tear down others, but I've never seen you as far off as you are on this one, read the book of Romans first. How do pagans not glorify God? Even if it is through wrath, so that God may be glorified all the more through his mercy. Read your Bible kid.

[nbullock3902]

Check out Romans ch. 1&2. Mohler never said that they should follow thier own hearts or that everyone has truth in thier hearts. He was saying that a resultant glorification was occuring through a created nature of good and evil. Although i assure you that Mohler follows the doctrine of Depravity.

[TMCguy]

Mohler said that "unbelieving Gentiles WORSHIPED God without ever even realizing it"? Where did he say that they worshiped God? Bring glory to God, yes. And, he's right. This is a poor critique by someone with way too much time on his hands. If you are going to critique someone, at least try to understand what he/she is saying. Blessings.

[LaneCh]

For it is not by hearing the Law that people are put right with God, but by doing what the Law commands. The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

(Rom 2:13-15)

[BusWatcher]

Thank God we are planning to pull out of the Southern Baptist Denomination. If more churches would do this, some of them high paid hirelings would have to get a real job.

[7JayMan7]

Mohler did NOT claim they were worshipping idols as you state AndrewCBain he stated that the 'gentile/pagans' married according to their conscience.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

[7JayMan7]

Consider the following AndrewCBain - maybe you've not read the following Scripture :

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

[djchillman]

Last i checked God wrote the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:1 but yet on "Question & Answers on God and related subject by Pastor Doug" in the 9:20 mark, one will find out it wasn't God that wrote them but Jesus. i dont' know what "religion" he is but anyone that is a preacher and says Jesus not God wrote them is either in a cult or a cult leader and we need too avoid them as true christians.

[locrian2231]

Wow...so do you really use such weak logic in your videos?

[deusimperator]

Al Mohler has become a Catholic?

[grendelee]

hey, i just realized a loophole. i heard somewhere (they might be lying. it happens.....) that god doesnt blame you for not accepting jesus, if YOUVE NEVER HEARD OF HIM! it cant be your fault! so heres my plan. DONT SAY ANYTHING! THEN WELL ALL GET INTO HEAVEN! HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

[hehas100]

This is a complete lie, the guy who does these video's are a complete joke.

[AFXH]

Amen

[Dominick7]

This is why it says they RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT..AFTER..HEARING THE MESSAGE..which is the point WHEN a person becomes saved and regenerated and not prior to then. This is ALSO why they had an outward sign of being baptized and identified w Christ , as opposed to merely being identified w repentance via Johns Baptism which was to prepare them for the next step which was to receive Christ after repentance if they even had been baptized by John.

[Dominick7]

It teaches that its the Gospel that saves and only if the person responds to it in repentance and trust will they become saved at that point. Its one thing to hear about the events but another to have a clear Gospel presentation,and that from a DIRECT eyewitness. The reason God went through all the trouble to get them connected via a vision and such is BECAUSE he and the rest needed to FIRST HEAR the Gospel. They needed someone to put it together for them.

[Dominick7]

Sorry but Cornelius was NOT a regenerate. The Bible says a man cannot be saved unless the Gospel is preached and it cant be preached unless messengers are sent to communicate it to the lost/unregenerate. According to Calvinism a man is saved INSPITE of the gospel and prior to hearing the Gospel, where they are REALLY saved by a turning on of their inner lights. Yet the Bible doesnt teach that at all.

[Dominick7]

Do you believe that because the Bible says Demons believe in God and tremble w fear that that means Demons are regenerate too? Please read the Bible in context and cease reading INTO scripture things that arent there, that you have ONLy gotten from your presuppositions in Calvinistic determinism.

[Dominick7]

It says christians are righteous and do good an contrast that w unbelievers who are unrighteous and do evil..do you think that means Christians always do good and dont also sin? No. Likewise you shouldnt assume that means unbelievers cant do good and or cant respond to God based on youre assumptions and misreading into the text of Scripture.

[Dominick7]

You are merely assuming Total Inabillity is taught in scripture when it is not, and assume Calvinism is true when it is merely contradictory atheistic like determinism packaged for Christianity. You are also assuming that Rom 3:18 is to be taken in a wooden literalistic fashion, when it is speaking of a general characteristic of a way of life.

[Dominick7]

One can be unregenerate, even a demon, or an apostate like Judas and have intellectual assent, be one of Christs inner circle, preach the gospel like Judas AND DO MIRACLES yet NOT be a regenerate believer. Cornelius had intellect assent and the fact that he wasnt baptized idetified w Jesus was an external sign he still needed to receive Jesus thus wasnt yet saved.

[Dominick7]

Romans 2:7 says that those who CONTINUE to seek glory, honor, and immortality God will give them eternal life. So you can meaningfully have Scripture call Cornelius a GOOD man who is an unregenerated unsaved man, who is responding to the structure of Creation, which we see in Romans 1 and 2, yet distinguish it from being in a state of salvation where one is positionally declaired perfect because they are covered with the righteousness of Christ which we see in romans 3.

[Bobo9977]

Sorry, Cornelius was not unregenrate but saved for he heard and believed the published word.

Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

more...

Bill

[Bobo9977]

plus Cornelius feared God something an unregenerate man cannot do.

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Cornelius responded to the work of God in him.

[Dominick7]

You may want to read a bible translation that comes from within the last 40-50 years..The Bible wasnt published publically as a wide spread document. It was spread mostly by word in an oral culture, and translations based on the best extant evidence shows the word "published" there is referring to the spreading of the news of an event not spreading of Biblical periodical like Gideons Bible. Besides that The demons believe in God and tremble w fear.

[Dominick7]

Romans 2 says that the gentiles who do not have the objective law 10 commandments obey the moral law within them are doing good and in a sense glorifying God by doing so because theyre following the moral law God put in them as being made in Gods image. This in NO WAY MEANS that by doing good= they are seen as positionally perfect or that that means theyre in a right relationship w God. It just means they are doing good.

[Dominick7]

I believe youre confusing morality with religion and doing good with justification. Morality is mans duty to his fellow man, religion has to do w ones duty to God. Yes both pagans and believers can be moral with or without explicitly believing in God personally..

[heathac]

Wow, you're going after Al Mohler now, I'm sure Mark Dever is next, and then you'll go for any other of the few remaining Calvinists that you can find. Pitiful, 1 star, and I'm waiting for you to do a video about someone from Australia. This is all getting pretty old, you're just picking out random subjects at this point, and you show no concern for the lost or weak in faith.

[BiblicalAnswers]

Do the stars knowingly glorify God? Of course not. But they do glorify him. Are the counted righteous for it? No, that would be silly. But they do glorify him, as does all creation.

[BiblicalAnswers]

You're a very smart person, Andrew. But just as observing the law cannot save you, neither can the intellect. Is there anyone you agree with? You've pointed out quite clearly what you disagree with, but what do you agree with? Surely the apostle John wasn't the last person to get it right. Though John has died, the Spirit still lives.

[Bobo9977]

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Can you see the distinction Christ makes here?

[Bobo9977]

A true worshiper of God is one who worships in spirit and truth, unsaved people have neither the spirit nor the truth in them but are full of darkness. To believe is to worship.

An unsaved man cannot see any attribute of God for he is blind and cannot understand the things of God. Since the only way to know God or any part of Him is by way of the Spirit leading one into all truth, and Christ was clear when He said the world CANNOT receive the spirit of truth.

Bill

[AQuinault]

Also, re Sproul at 7:34. Sproul isn't saying Gentiles shouldn't worship Jesus, rather he's saying that those who die ignorant of Christ will be condemned because of their sins. John Gill expresses pretty much the same idea in Body of Doctrinal Divinity, book 6 ch 4.

[AQuinault]

As for the Amos/Exodus passages, certainly the Jews did not glorify God in their disobedience, but the point is that unbelievers can indirectly glorify God (not directly by worshipping him, but indirectly by pointing to the universality of his laws. In the same way, the damned glorify God, not directly by worship, but by pointing to his attribute of justice).

[AQuinault]

He's just saying that they are (unwittingly) testifying to the truth in this one respect, despite their depravity.

The fact that they are aware of the moral law (shown by occasional conformity to it), but suppress it for

the most part, is why we can say they are guilty before God and subject to judgment.

[AQuinault]

Andrew, in the past you've pointed out some lapses in popular teachers that are valid, but I think you're seriously off base here.

At 1:56 you state "So mohler says unbelieving gentiles worship God without even realizing it."

But he's not trying to spout C.S. Lewis-esque inclusivist twaddle. He's not saying these pagans are saved or even that their conformity to the law is 'righteous' in any way.

[crimthann86]

The truth is that everyone knows the law. "It is written on their hearts.." We excert free will only to the extent that we know right from wrong; however that is the flesh and even our best works condemn us because our hearts are corrupt and here there is no free will. When the bible speaks of the spirit men will do things out of joy.. but when it comes down to it nobody would be willing to experience the fire of hell to glorify God as all are corrupt.

[crimthann86]

All is left.. all that is ever left is grace and the cross. These people.. Al Mohler.. most "christians" completely miss the biblical view of grace and have long since returned to a works righteousness that makes medieval catholicism seem like a font of pure grace by comparison.  "All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one." Rom. 3.12